Notes so far:
Match 1, Game 1:
he opens with Thoughtseize on my Chant, Cantrips into another Thoughtseize, Forces a Chant that I hid, and I proceed to resolve a draw4 into infinite goodness.
1-0 in favor of me.
Match 1, Game 2:
He has 2 Counterbalance, 2 Sensei's Divining Top online very early. I see no kgrip/wipe away in the first six turns or so and lose. I don't think he realizes it, but he could have ended the game on like turn 3 with Thoughtseize on Tendrils + Crypt. For some reason, I always draw my singleton Tendrils when drawing blind off my deck. It was a play mistake to not take it, but I'm not sue if he realized that I only have one win condition in post-board. His hand here was probably unbeatable even if I did find KGrips.
1-1 tie
Match 1, Game 3:
I keep Dark Ritual, Extirpate, Krosan Grip, Brainstorm, Tundra, Dark Ritual, Ponder. I Ponder looking for a land, shuffle when I don't see one and draw another cantrip. Fastfoward to the gamestate where my opponent has complete control of the game on turn 8 or 9. I'm still at 1 land when my deck finally takes pity on me and shows me that the second land is 18 cards down.
1-2 in favor of Thresh in games, 0-1 in favor of Thresh in matches
Match 2, Game 1
He Thoughtseizes turn 1 or 2 and I quickly Extirpate it when he leaves me with a Wipe Away. He wins the game when he is able to STP his goyf as I attempt to combo out a turn before I really want to.
0-1 in favor of Thresh, 1-3 in favor of Thresh overall
Match 2, Game 2
He spends forever and a day thinking about his seven before keeping. As a Tendrils player, assuming he's paying attention, this immediately means one of two things: He's keeping a hand with Counterbalance but little or no disruption early, probably without the chance for a cantrip/counterbalance before turn 3 or he's keeping a hand on the strength of Force of Will x2, but no cantrips or creatures. I open something really stupid like:
Infernal, Brainstorm, Ponder, LED, Dark Ritual, Land, Land.
My Ponder is into Infernal Brainstorm, LED, Infernal, of which I take Brainstorm, hiding Infernal on top. He Thoughtseizes me and gives away his hand when he takes Infernal Tutor over LED. The thing that stands out here is that LED is almost the only way I can combo out turn 2. Taking that guarantees that you buy time for the turn 2 Counterbalance. Taking my only business signifies that you have no Force of Will, which leads to me playing Land, Dark Ritual (avoiding Daze), Brainstorm, LED, LED, Infernal Tutor which prompts a concession.
1-1 tie, 2-3 in favor of Thresh in games
My girlfriend starts freaking out about our pool right about here. To those who are flaming, I'm sure afraid of losing. We're currently 2-2-0-1 in games with Freakish winning 2, me winning two, neither of us drawing, and landscrew picking up a rubber match. Kindly go fuck yourselves while we try to finish our matches.
Last edited by emidln; 05-21-2008 at 09:51 AM. Reason: Thanks to Mr. Caplan the Editor Man
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Enough of the accusations and insults. Let the results speak for themselves and stop cluttering up this thread.
I've had to purge off-topic bullshit three separate times in this thread. I don't know why, but this thread is bringing out the flaming troll in people who should know better.
So, once and for all, stay on-topic, be cool or earn some warnings.
Thread moved back to the light of day now that more results are in.
Last edited by Bardo; 05-25-2008 at 07:45 PM.
My Maindeck has 4 Dead Cards Against Combo (or does it?): A Vexing Story of Agony, Pondering, Seized Thoughts, and beating Plowshares into Swords (or something).
Reading Guide:
Ponder (Goyf, Goose, Fetch), that means that from left to right that's the order I'll be drawing them in after putting them back.
Underlined text are usually play mistakes on my part. Sometimes they're simply interesting courses of play due to the fact that the average game usually goes differently.
Blue text are some take aways, and potentially helpful hints for players looking for a way to beat TES and FT, that is, assuming you haven't already discovered these things out for yourself, which I certainly expect most people have.
The Epic Storm
Match 1
Game 1, Bryant is on the play (for odd matches).
My opening 7:
3 nonfetch Lands, 1 fetch, Ponder, Goyf, Daze (I would keep only if Bryant mulls, 3 nonfetch lands is pretty awful, he doesn't).
The next 6 are:
Fetch, Brainstorm, Daze, 2 Goyf, Mystic Enforcher (not much better than the first hand, but Brainstorm is better than the ponder, and atleast 2 of the first 4 lands were blanks, here Enforcer feels like a blank).
He leads Undiscovered Paradise + Ponder.
I draw Counterbalance (suddenly my hand is fantastic if I live another turn). I play the fetch and pass the turn. Bryant spends his turn replaying Undiscovered Paradise.
I don't fetch (or Brainstorm on endstep, I know a lot of players would). I draw Tropical Island (if I don't draw a land here, waiting to Brainstorm gives me one extra card to look at, I've almost always hated Brainstorming on an opponent's endstep with no fetchland to crack afterwards).
Counterbalance comes into play.
Bryant plays Chrome Mox (Counterbalance reveals Nimble Mongoose).
Goose gets drawn and played (with Brainstorm ready to set up Counterbalance).
Brainstorm gets played somewhere along the lines drawing me Underground Sea, Thoughtseize, and another Goose. The 2 Tarmogoyfs from my opener get put on top, I end up Thoughtseizing him, seeing Rite of Flame, Chant, LED, Petal, Brainstorm & Tendrils. I take the Tendrils bluffing that I have a 1 casting cost card on top (I'm not 100% sure this was correct).
One of the Goyfs comes down.
He goes for it next turn (playing an Infernal Contract), but Daze ends up cutting him off of Red for the double Rite of Flame into EtW I suspect he has.
Goyf and Goose take him to 5.
With the help of the Infernal Contract cards he still manages to make 10 EtW tokens (Counterbalance revealed Daze which doesn't stop Rite of Flame).
I draw Sensei's Divining Top, play it. He ends up blocking Goyf and swinging back, trying to race. Sensei's Divining Top finds Swords to Plowshares which takes out the 1 token he left back to block Goyf.
It may have been in Bryant's interest with the 10 token to try and block to kill Goyf and Goose that turn (4 on Goose, 6 on Goyf, as Goyf was a 4/5, if I manage to Thresh the Goose before damage, he should still have 3 tokens aftewards), but if I draw another Goyf, basically loses.
1-0
I SB EE's for 1 StP and Pithing Needle.
Game 2:
Divining Top, Counterbalance, Tropical, Fetch, Brainstorm, 2 Enforcer. Brainstorm's role is to turn my Enforcers into Goyfs.
I draw Daze and play Top off the Tropical. He endsteps a Brainstorm which I use Daze on. His deck has so much mana that I'd rather Daze actually traded with spells instead of did nothing.
I draw and play Pondering setting up (Seize, Goose, Fetch). I'll end up fetching away the fetch.
But Bryant plays Diminishing Returns before I can Seize it:
Counterbalance, Goose, 2 Swords, 3 lands... ew
I draw my card with Top. It's not Force of Will... Bryant plays EtW that would make 18 Goblin Tokens...
My card off the Top was Engineered Explosives
059 [freakish777] <freakish777> don't bother making them
0:15:21 [Bryant C.] <Bryant C.> sonofaboitch
Goyf prompts a concession.
2-0
Match 2
Game 1a:
2 Tundra, Fetch, Daze, Counterbalance, Goose, Seize.
I may as well keep, but I really wish those Tundras were fetchlands.
Turn 1: Goose comes down.
Turn 2: Counterbalance comes down.
Turn 3: MWS server crash. Restart game 1 of match 2 (I felt I had a good chance, if I draw a fetch, Sea, Brainstorm or Ponder, I should be able to turn on Thoughtseize, and I have Daze already).
Game 1b:
Sea, Divining Top, Goose, Seize, Force of Will, Counterbalance, Enforcer (this hand is basically busted against any deck not packing Wasteland).
Turn 1 Thoughtseize reveals (Orim's Chant, Burning Wish, Tarnished Citadel, Ponder, Lotus Petal, City of Brass, Simian Spirit Guide). I take Burning Wish.
I draw a land and play Counterbalance.
Bryant goes off. I misplayed by playing Counterbalance here instead of keeping it in hand to turn Force of Will on (I had no other blue cards).
0-1
Game 2:
Divining Top, Fetch, Swords, Goose, Counterbalance, Brainstorm, Force of Will
Good Enough.
Play Goose on turn 1.
Play Top on turn 2.
On Bryant's endstep Top reveals (Force of Will, Fetch, Fetch).
Back to back Shushers go farming.
Shortly after keeping the Force and fetching, Top finds Counterbalance. Then it finds Thoughtseize.
1-1
Game 3:
Swords, 2 Daze, 2 Fetch, Force of Will, Goyf
All my notes say are "Bstorm into Daze ftw."
But seriously according to the game logs, Bryant attempts an early Ill-Gotten Gains this game which meets Force of Will (I actually contemplate Forcing his Lotus Petal, as it makes red mana for Empty the Warrens, then I realize that Goyf + Swords in hand solves 6 tokens handily...). The turn after that I Daze his Ponder keeping him on a Gemstone Mine with only 1 counter left. Bryant plays Draw Go while I make a 5/6 Goyf. And then another. Bryant plays Dark Ritual. I respond with Brainstorm and let Ritual resolve. He plays LED, then Infernal Tutor sacrificing LED, I Daze the Tutor leaving him 1 mana short of being able to generate enough mana off with whatever he's getting (I assume it's Ill-Gotten Gains).
According to Bryant I can not possibly draw any better.
2-1
Match 3
Game 1:
Bryant mulligans twice, so my less than stellar hand is good enough to keep.
Ponder, Counterbalance, Swords, Divining Top, Goyf, Enforcer, Tundra
I Ponder into lands. Counterbalance, Top, and Goyf come down, roughly in that order.
1-0
Game 2:
I keep Ponder, Counterbalance, Sea, 2 Fecth, Enforcer
Somehow I thought I was Pondering into Countermagic for the win.
Bryant makes 12 Goblin tokens.
1-1
Game 3:
Brainstorm, Ponder, Swords, Divining Top, Tropical, USea, Tundra
I Ponder into (FoW, Daze, Tropical).
Bryant attempts Infernal Tutor, responding by activating LED. It meets Force of Will:
0:02:11 [freakish777] <freakish777> burn for 4?
0:02:12 [Bryant C.] <Bryant C.> did u draw that off ponder?
0:02:16 [freakish777] <freakish777> of course
0:02:17 [Bryant C.] Bryant C.'s life total is now 16 (-4)
0:02:19 [Bryant C.] <Bryant C.> ass
The next card after the Ponder cards is Thoughtseize, and Bryant scoops.
2-1
Match 4
Game 1:
Needle, Swords, Daze, Tropical, Sea, Counterbalance, Fetch.
I mulligan into:
Swords, Seize, Goyf, Counterbalance, Brainstorm, Fetch
Turn 1 Thoughtseize reveals(Dark Ritual, Gemstone Mine, Lion's Eye Diamond, Orim's Chant, Tarnished Citadel,Infernal Tutor). I take Infernal Tutor.
Bryant Ponders, and shuffles.
0:03:00 [freakish777] freakish777 taps Underground Sea
0:03:01 [Bryant C.] <Bryant C.> counterbalance
0:03:02 [freakish777] freakish777 plays Brainstorm from Hand
0:03:04 [Bryant C.] <Bryant C.> wtf!
0:03:09 [Bryant C.] <Bryant C.> no counterbalance?
0:03:15 [freakish777] <freakish777> need a land, obv
0:03:22 [freakish777] <freakish777> don't worry, it's coming next turn
By my next turn there's 14 Goblin tokens in play. Empty the Warrns is the storm card I want to see the least when I'm playing Threshold.
0-1
Game 2:
3 Tropicals, Sea, Ponder, Daze, Brainstorm
Ponder into (Ponder, Counterbalance, Goyf)
I don't really want to Daze his first turn Brainstorm, as it means I have to give up turn 2 Counterbalance.
I play Counterbalance.
I play Goyf, leave Brainstorm ready to go with Counterbalance.
I have drawn no fetches. The only cards in the yard are instants and sorcery. Goyf is a 2/3. He remains a 2/3 for at least 4 turns.
I draw Seize and play it (Dark Ritual, Orim's Chant, Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, City of Brass, Undiscovered Paradise). I take Orim's Chant.
Ponder into Force of Will. I am so winning this game.
Bryant plays out Simian Spirit Guide as a blocker, I have a Swords in hand, activate Top seeing another Swords, so I go ahead and Swords the blocker (which makes no sense since it's a 2/3).
Bryant plays another Simian Spirit Guide. I run into this one with Goyf. I end up Brainstorming the second Swords to Plowshares on top of my library to stop a Dark Ritual, I then get greedy, hoping to counter the LED that follows it up by fetching away the Swords, I do not have Top in play. This allows Bryant to play Shusher off of Rite of Flame with enough mana left over to bypass my Force of Will and resolve Infernal Tutor for Tendrils of Agony. I feel like there's a mistake in here somehow involving not holding Swords for Shusher exclusively.
0-2
Match 5
Game 1:
No lands, mull
No lands, mull
Tundra, Ponder, Brainstorm, Swords, Goose...
I draw Daze after Bryant takes his turn, and Ponder into (Counterbalance, Fetch, Fetch).
I play Counterbalance on turn 2, and try to put Bryant on tilt:
0:02:23 [freakish777] freakish777 plays Counterbalance from Hand
0:02:26 [Bryant C.] <Bryant C.> ass
0:02:37 [freakish777] <freakish777> you're going to look really bad losing against a mull to 5...
0:02:45 [Bryant C.] <Bryant C.> fuck off
I play Goose the next turn, keeping Brainstorm up.
Bryant Chant's. I Brainstorm. Bryant Chant's (Counterbalance reveals Enforcer), I allow the second Chant to resolve (holding 2 Dazes).
Bryant responds to Brainstorm further with Dark Ritual, with only a City of Brass untapped (if I had Dazed the second Chant, Bryant likely plays Ritual in response, or allows Daze to resolve then plays the Ritual, either way, when he plays the Ritual, I Daze again, cutting him to BBB or the one mana of any color, instead of BBB + one mana of any color, and that mana of any color will be Red for EtW).
He makes 10 Goblin tokens this turn.
0-1
Game 2:
Tundra, Tundra, Sea, Goose, Divining Top, Swords, FoW
I keep this hand because I let Bruce do the talking for me this game. I lose.
0-2
Match 6
Game 1:
2 Ponder, Counterbalance, Daze, Sea, Swords, Fetch
I Ponder into (Daze, Ponder, Land) and figure Counterbalance with double Daze and double Ponder should be good enough. A green creature makes an appearence shortly there after.
1-0
Game 2:
Divning Top, Force of Will, Goyf, 2 Fetch, Seize, Trop
I open up with Seize and make some Tarmogoyfs. Bryant makes 10 Goblins, putting me in a precarious situation. At some point I have no cards in hand, a Sensei's Divining Top on top of my library, and not enough life to survive an attack by Bryant if he swings with everything (in otherwords Top needs to find a Swords or EE in the top 3). Bryant of course Chant's me on upkeep.
1-1
Game 3:
Bryant mulls to 6. He successfully Ponders his way out of immediate mana screw (but is still light on mana), and I end up dropping EE on 2 for a Vexing Shusher and then drawing a Swords to Plowshares anyways afterwards. A 4/5 Goyf runs in for too many turns while Bryant draws blanks.
2-1.
Shusher is annoying. Make sure you have a plan to deal with it postboard. Leaving in a certain number of Swords to Plowshares seems to work out ok.
Overall match record: 4-2
Overall game record: 8-7
Play mistake count: Roughly 5
Fetchland Tendrils (with apologies, looking at the match logs is getting really cumbersome to give you guys more details, my notes will have to suffice, unless it's really interesting).
Match 1
Game 1, I'm on the play.
(Due to the fact that we played in two different sessions, I'm on the play in match 1, he's on the play in match 2. When we resume our testing, at the start of round 3 we don't remember who was on the play in match 1 and decide that I'll be on the play for Even matches and he'll be on the play for odd matches from then on. We're each on the play for 3 rounds, so it works out, but this detail is put in to avoid people attempting to claim there's a descrepency and say that one of us was on the play more often).
Tropical, Enforcer, Goyf, 2 Brainstorm, Seize, FoW
I play Tropical and pass the turn.
The next turn I draw Ponder, I play Brainstorm (Fetch, Fetch, Goose), I put Enforcer and a Fetch back. I Fetch for my missing color (black) and Seize for an Orim's Chant.
The turn after I draw another Fetch, get Tropical, and lay down Goose and Goyf. I have a good feeling about this game.
After that, I draw a second Ponder, and play it seeing (non-fetch land, Swords to Plowshares, and Goyf). I shuffle those away and draw a Brainstorm. I do yet more pondering (Seize, Counterbalance, Force)!!
I play the Seize, taking Infernal Tutor.
His next turn he goes for it, I Force a Chant, but don't have counters for anything after it, so Forcing Chant here is potentially a mistake? I'll let you guys decide.
0-1
SB out 4 Swords, for 4 Tormod's Crypt
Game 2:
2 Divining Top, Enforcer, Ponder, Fetch, Brainstorm, Counterbalance
I fetch for a Tropical and Ponder (Tropical, Counterbalance, Brainstorm).
Next turn I drop Counterbalance and we play draw go for a while, at some point later I Seize and Abeyance.
Later still I play the second Counterbalance and second Divining Top out...
A Goose goes the distance despite one of the Counterbalances being Gripped.
Against TES there usually isn't any reason to play out a second Counterbalance, and instead opt to use it as Force of Will fodder. A big reason to run 4 Counterbalances in your deck is so that you can drop a second one to force your opponent to draw 2 Krosan Grips to get out of the lock.
1-1
I additionally side out an Enforcer for a Krosan Grip here, as I want to be able to endstep blow up a Divining Top (or LED) of his, as well as have a greater than zero percent chance of countering his Krosan Grips and Wipe Aways (2~2.5% chance).
Game 3:
5 lands, Divining Top, Ponder...
next hand:
Tropical, Divining Top, Daze, 2 Brainstorm, Ponder
I totally rip Force of Will on my first turn. Ponder (Goose, Needle, Enforcer), shuffle and draw Tormod's Crypt and play it.
He plays Brainstorm before playing a second land, I Daze it (no land).
I replay Tropical.
He plays Divining Top (no land).
By the time he draws a second land, I have Goose + Counterbalance + Top.
2-1
Match 2
Game 1:
Tundra, Fetch, Force of Will, Daze, Swords, Goyf, Divining Top
I draw Seize, play Tundra, make Divining Top and pass.
I activate top in my next upkeep looking for a blue card to go with Force of Will (which turns Daze on). I draw Brainstorm, fetch for Sea and Seize a Cabal Ritual.
FT has less mana than TES and more tutors, taking mana away from them seems like (although may not be) the mathematically correct play, whereas against TES you almost always take Burning Wish or Infernal Tutor.
He Extirpates Seize.
I top into a fetch and make Goyf.
Later, top shows me really bad cards (Goose, non-fetch Land, Enforcer) and I make the best of it by drawing and playing a 1/1 Goose.
He Mysticals for Cabal Ritual (potentially giving credit to the notion that taking out FT's mana is the right call).
I top on his endstep (2 non-fetch lands, and Enforcer).
0:08:17 [emidln] <emidln> End my turn
0:08:19 [freakish777] freakish777 taps Tundra
0:08:23 [freakish777] freakish777 is looking top 3 cards of its Library...
0:08:28 [freakish777] freakish777 rearranges cards in freakish777's Library
0:08:28 [freakish777] freakish777 rearranges cards in freakish777's Library
0:08:30 [freakish777] freakish777 rearranges cards in freakish777's Library
0:08:31 [freakish777] freakish777 stops looking its Library...
0:08:32 [freakish777] It is now turn 11 (freakish777)
0:08:32 [freakish777] It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
0:08:32 [emidln] emidln plays Brain Freeze from Hand
0:08:33 [emidln] emidln taps Scrubland
0:08:33 [freakish777] freakish777 untaps his/her permanents
0:08:33 [freakish777] It is now the Beginning Phase, Upkeep Step
0:08:33 [emidln] emidln taps Tundra
0:08:38 [freakish777] <freakish777> in upkp?
0:08:42 [emidln] <emidln> yes
0:08:42 [freakish777] <freakish777> thanks
0:08:43 [freakish777] freakish777 puts Tundra into play from Library
0:08:44 [freakish777] freakish777 puts Mystic Enforcer into play from Library
0:08:45 [freakish777] freakish777 puts Underground Sea into play from Library
I really think this is a mistake on his part (although it can be really hard to tell). Basically Goyf is getting 1 bigger here as a result and giving me a Time Walk. I top again on upkeep, finding Counterbalance, play it, and at this point I think it's more or less over.
Despite what I think...
He goes for it, I Force a Chant, then let everything else resolve. I'm on 13. With 7 storm copies plus the original Tendrils of Agony on the stack, I [u]Swords my own 4/5 Goyf[/i] leaving me at 1 after everything is said and done. The lone Goose (and Counterbalance + Top) prompt a concession after an Infernal Tutor is countered by Counterbalance.
SB strategy in all games from here forward is out Swords and 1 Enforcer, in 4 Crypt and 1 Grip
1-0
Game 2:
Fetch, Needle, Divining Top, 2 Tormod's Crypt, 2 Seize.
I think about this one for a while.
I draw Enforcer (what a blank). I fetch Sea and play Seize. His hand is something like Infernal Tutor, Dark Ritual, LED, Brainstorm (ie, it's fucking terrible for me). I take Infernal Tutor.
He play Dark Ritual, then Brainstorms into another Infernal Tutor and another LED. I COMPLETELY FORGOT TO PLAY TORMOD'S FUCKING CRYPT. I concede when he plays Infernal Tutor and responds by making 6 mana with double LED. He's going to get Ill-Gotten Gains and in order to get something out of this, I'd rather he thinks I just keep subpar hands (and use it to jam Force of Will down his throat later) then to let him know I'm making really stupid mistakes.
1-1
Intermission, emidln says he has a pressing matter to attend to.
We resume on Friday, May 23rd.
Game 3:
Ponder, Daze, 2 Fetch, Needle, Goyf, Trop
I Ponder (Force, Tormod's Crypt, Goyf). The Goyf get's fetched away during my next turn, and I make the Goyf that was already in my hand.
I Needle Divining Top. It gets Krosan Gripped a couple turns later.
Shortly thereafter, emidln goes for it (I know about half of his hand from a Seize). I Force of Will a Dark Ritual, which is entirely the wrong play based on the known cards in his hand.
I experience some agonizing Tendrils (at least it's not Tentacles of Agony....).
I punt this match in both games two and three.....
1-2
Match 3
(Again, from here on emidln is on the play for odd matches, and myself for even matches).
Game 1:
Goose, 2 Brainstorm, Underground, 2 Tundra, Tropical (EWWWWWWW)
Next hand:
Divining Top, Daze, 2 Brainstorm, USea, fetch
Draw Tundra, Fetch up Tropical and pass the turn (in the event he has the nuts turn 2 again, I'd rather have Brainstorm for Force available).
He plays Ponder (without making a second land). I Daze.
Draw Goose, replay Tropical, play Goose.
I live another turn and Ponder into (Seize, Ponder, Fetch). I Seize his Tendrils of Agony (it looks like the rest of his hand could actually go off if he manages to draw another Ritual or LED). emidln claims to have completely fucked something up with Divining Top here costing him the game. I wasn't entirely sure he had enough mana or enough storm to go for it that turn, but he says he did and that taking LED would have been a better decision on my part. He scoops after making a fatal mistake.
1-0
Game 2:
Grip, Enforcer, Fetch, 2 Daze, Force, Divining Top.
He plays Divining Top. I play Divining Top.
He Tops on upkeep. I top on upkeep. He taps out to attempt and end of turn Brainstorm, I Daze.
A few turns later he has no more Divining Top.
A few more turns after that, Mystic Enforcer makes his only appearence, as a 6/6, another difference between TES and FT, in that FT gives Threshold like decks time to make land drops to actually cast their "less efficient, 4 mana, creatures."
I win.
2-0
Match 4
Game 1:
3 Tropical, Tundra, Daze, Ponder, Seize...
Keeping this hand probably is a mistake as you really want one of those Tropicals to be a Fetchland instead, and another to be a spell.
Anyways, I Ponder into (Counterbalance, Goose, BStorm).
I Daze his Divining Top.
0:04:25 [freakish777] <freakish777> I don't like Forcing Top
0:04:28 [zkb] <emidln> heh
0:04:29 [freakish777] <freakish777> but Daze I'm fine with
0:04:33 [zkb] <emidln> you should be
0:04:35 [zkb] <emidln> it's really strong
My next turn I replay Tropical and play Goose.
On my next turn I play Counterbalance (the top card is now a mystery). On my endstep he Mysticals, and I reveal Force of Will. When he untaps he Extirpates Daze, revealing the Seize in my hand. Figuring Seize will wreck him if I get to play it, he Rituals, Counterbalance reveals Goose (another mystery card). The Brainstorm I play after that gives me "the nuts." And Goose takes it down, as he can't come back.
1-0
Game 2:
Fetch, 2 Daze, Goose, Counterbalance, Enforcer, Seize
He Brainstorms in response to my first turn Seize.
He Brainstorms in response to my second turn Counterbalance.
I don't have any other notes on this one. His hand must have been awful, and I probably drew a Ponder, Brainstorm, or Divining Top to find answers long enough for Goose to do his damage.
2-0
Match 5
Game 1:
Seize, 2 Cbalance, Ponder, Goose, 2 Fetch.
I Seize. I play Counterbalance. I play a 1/1 Goose over a 4/5 Goyf because it means I also get to play Ponder (Tundra, Seize, Force) that turn (setting up the Counterbalance).
At the end of this game my hand is Brainstorm, Ponder, 3 Force of Will.
There was simply no way emidln was winning this game.
1-0
Game 2:
Seize, Divining Top, Tropical, Tundra, Grip, Brainstorm, Ponder
I Seize a Cabal Ritual, and then Ponder (Land Land Land), shuffle it up and rip Force of Will.
At some point during this game, I completely forget to swing with Goyf because I get over-excited at the prospect of countering his Krosan Grip (after brainstorming mine back on top).
It apparently doesn't matter though as I get a second Goyf and go to town (I think this is another game where I draw and play a second Counterbalance shortly after the first one gets Gripped).
2-0
Match 6
Game 1:
Swords, 2 fetch, Goyf, Enforcer, Tropical, Divining Top
All my notes say are that I win. Apparently Divining Top found me a Brainstorm or something.
1-0
Game 2:
Seize, Sea, Tundra, Divining Top, Ponder, Goose, Enforcer
I lead off with Seize and take Orim's Chant... (from my notes the rest of his hand is fairly solid).
The Ponder in my hand finds a Fetchland, which I crack immediately (despite 2 other decent cards the Ponder revealed) to get Goose on the ground. Divining Top finds me a Goyf and a Force of Will at some point. There's a moment where I forget the order of the cards on top of my Library (Brainstorm had put Enforcer back) and I had thought Enforcer was the top card. I end up tapping to draw with Top, and Enforcer isn't there (I have exactly 4 lands, and 6 cards in the graveyard, and Force and Ponder in hand). If I had done things right, I would have wound up swinging for the win the next turn with Goose, Goyf and Enforcer, with Force back up. Instead I wound up having to play the Needle that was on top instead for Divining Top, and taking 2 more turns to seal the deal.
2-0
Overall match record: 5-1
Overall game record: 11-3
Overal play mistakes: Roughly 5
This is spread over 4 posts due to the fact that I think I hit the character buffer limit when attempting to paste it all in at once.
I will not make any claims about whether The Epic Storm or Fetchland Tendrils is the better of the two. I'll let my game notes and thoughts do as much talking as I can about the differences between the two in the context of playing UGbw Threshold agains them. The numbers of play mistakes are there simply in an effort to legitimize the testing and that about the same number of mistakes were made against each opponent on my end (how bad those mistakes were, I'll let you guys decide).
That was amazing, freakish. Thank you for typing all that up and playing 12 rounds.
I hope we can agree now that FT does not have the best Thresh MU and that TES and FT are about the same. I enjoyed every part of the report because I really want to go test a new list right now.
Well TES was a lot closer to 50/50 where Fetchland Tendrils was 11-3 which is... like 25%.
I'm just going to annotate his notes here, because I see nothing really wrong.
The mistake here was that I decided to go all in without knowing all information. I wasn't actually in threat of taking lethal damage, I was just in the threat of you topdecking more hate. Had I topped before deciding to play against the CB, I have Wipe Away third from the top, can Wipe Away next turn, untap, and at least have a shot at winning.Match 3
(Again, from here on emidln is on the play for odd matches, and myself for even matches).
Game 1:
Goose, 2 Brainstorm, Underground, 2 Tundra, Tropical (EWWWWWWW)
Next hand:
Divining Top, Daze, 2 Brainstorm, USea, fetch
Draw Tundra, Fetch up Tropical and pass the turn (in the event he has the nuts turn 2 again, I'd rather have Brainstorm for Force available).
He plays Ponder (without making a second land). I Daze.
Draw Goose, replay Tropical, play Goose.
I live another turn and Ponder into (Seize, Ponder, Fetch). I Seize his Tendrils of Agony (it looks like the rest of his hand could actually go off if he manages to draw another Ritual or LED). emidln claims to have completely fucked something up with Divining Top here costing him the game. I wasn't entirely sure he had enough mana or enough storm to go for it that turn, but he says he did and that taking LED would have been a better decision on my part. He scoops after making a fatal mistake.
The reason that taking Tendrils is a bad idea here is that my best plan of attack is actually Doomsday, which will put Tendrils back where I need it. The only time I would really recommend taking the Tendrils is when TCrypt/Extirpate is online. By taking LED, you would have bought significantly more time because I would need to find (and potentially commit mana to) more rituals to have the potential to go off, which would have been rough given that I was mana light in this game.
I was just fishing for a Counterbalance here. I knew my hand lost to a Counterbalance, and I was hoping that my Brain Freeze would hit one of them since it had been a long time for not having seen one.I really think this is a mistake on his part (although it can be really hard to tell). Basically Goyf is getting 1 bigger here as a result and giving me a Time Walk. I top again on upkeep, finding Counterbalance, play it, and at this point I think it's more or less over.
I actually made two consecutive play mistakes in this game. The first was actually casting Extirpate when I saw FoW on top. I should have gone for it here under the assumption that you didn't have FoW #2 in hand. The other was related to casting a Sensei's Divining Top with black mana instead of green mana when a blind Counterbalance revealed a land. I should have combo'd there too, but I wasn't looking to win that turn (a minor mistake on my part).Originally Posted by freakish777
Some random thoughts on the matchup and build:
Thoughtseize, from testing, has demanded a new answer to Threshold for FT. UGW and UGR in a Counterbalance outfit can be answered with standard tools, but Thoughtseize demands that:
(a) Wipe Away be replaced by Krosan Grip in the maindeck. You autolose games where your opponent plays CB and then is able to play Thoughtseize before you want to go off. This is not good.
(b) The threat density change. Infernal Tutor is a really dead card in the matchup, and at least against this build, would be much better served by boarding in Thoughtseize to take Counterbalances and Forces and an additional Doomsday. The major reason here is that LED many times needs to be played out proactively to avoid Thoughtseize and free up hand space. Wining with Infernal Tutor generally requires at least two ritual effects in hand and lots of available land or three ritual effects. Doomsday only generally requires cards in play (which can count towards card draw), a way to draw a card, and 0-1 rituals. This makes it easier to hide with Sensei's Divining Top and Brainstorm. Having two Doomsday available postboard would allow the deck to shed Infernal Tutors and focus on playing more disruption while getting a more streamlined kill. This doesn't work in all matchups, but it appears to be the best strategy against CB + Thoughtseize thresh.
(c) Related to (b), the disruption package needs to accomodate a more versatile solution to Counterbalance in addition to Krosan Grip. Thoughtseize provides this additional protection and disruption, although it would need to replace Serenity and turn a largely favorable Dragon Stompy matchup completely around. Given the strength of black Thresh in the current metagame, it seems this tradeoff would be worthwhile. Thoughtseize isn't completely dead in other matchups, but rarely would it supplement Orim's Chant like it does against black Threshold (indeed, I likely wouldn't board it in against other variants).
In testing with Freakish777 and then in independent testing with the original Street Wraith/Lotus Petal/15 land version, ETW proved to be highly effective mid to late game. It appears that black Thresh doesn't have the space to hate ETW as well as a slower Tendrils, which makes this attractive, especially in game 1. Ideally, this could force black thresh into lowering their win conditions or actual hate cards for me. The ability for ETW to convert lower storm counts is critical in situations where, due to multiple thoughtseizes, I am low on business or ritual effects. This requires a five color manabase with a splash from a Volcanic Island. The obvious cut would be either the second copy of Tundra or Underground Sea, but this hasn't been fully explored. ETW is nearly worthless in other matchups, and would probably get boarded out most of the time in game 2s against anything that isn't black or white thresh.
The matchup itself is both better and worse than I expected. My prediction of an overall of around 35-45% (I think that against Freakish777's build it would be around 40%, but a build with Extirpate would take me down to 35%) actually seems somewhat accurate given my mistakes, but the game 2, even with the Thoughtseizes, hasn't proven to ever go past 50/50. This is troubling because even with the changes of maindeck Krosan Grip and Empty the Warrens, I couldn't win more than 4 of the 10 preboard games I played against my teammate playing freakish777's same build. Against the UGW build originally suggested by Bryant, I was able to take 6 of 10 game 1s, 7 of 10 game 1's from UGR Thrash, and 5 of 10 game 1s from UGR Moon Thresh. The only build of Thresh that seemed to be worse was UGB Thrash, which I managed to take 2 of 10 preboard games and then went 0-6 postboard before quitting. Thoughtseize, Extirpate, Pithing Needle, Stifle, and Wasteland forms a brutal package that I don't think I can beat. Overall, this puts FT at a significant disadvantage in the black thresh matchup, given that winning two postboard games in a 50/50 matchup while likely losing the first is unlikely.
Even with all of the theory and optimization from testing, there are still some hands from Thresh that FT cannot beat. Openers involving double Counterbalance by turn 3 are a near autoloss. The potential for a quick Thoughtseize + Extirpate on CB lessens this blow, but that 4-of, 3-of combo on the play won't stop the vast majority of these games that turn into quick blowouts. Further, CB + Thoughtseize before I get KGrip online will continue to harass FT even with Thoughtseize given that Brainstorm/Ponder/Top can hide CB early and find it later if it isn't in the opener. The only real ray of sunshine is that multiple Thoughtseize + Force games are manageable (at least there is a chance compared to the multi-CB games) if Counterbalance isn't seen or our own Thoughtseize/KGrip can answer a singleton. The power of Thoughtseize in this matchup lies in the ability to neutralize our answers to Counterbalance before we can react to the Counterbalance or to negate our ability to combo by reversing the power of virtual card copies our tutoring gives us.
That said, I'm looking forward to the Landstill matches. Do we have a player for this yet?
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Same as Thresh, anywhere between 45-55% depending on colors and sideboard options.
I thought Tacosnape was down for this.That said, I'm looking forward to the Landstill matches. Do we have a player for this yet?
Anyway, I haven't gone through all of the logs, but I like what I see.
thank you for the posts, they were highly interesting. They can also teach us a leasson or two (not to do some mistake). I am surprised though to see some hands being mulliganed because there was no fetchland
I can also see the power of UGB ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh in the combo matchup.
can you post a list? I havent seen one, or if i did, i forgot :)
Would you recommend putting CB/Top even in a "random" metagame?
Robert
All the lists used in this competition were posted in the opening post of this thread.
Do you guys have a time frame for the landstill matchup?
Thats also a good question, is CB/top good in a random metagame?
I c h o r i d - my anti blue
Manaless Ichorid- At least its cheeper than standard.
We admit for the sake of the exercise that following is true:
Landstill > Fromat
Non-Basic Hate > Landstill
Basics > Non-Basic Hate
We can therefore logically conlude that
Basics > Format
The correct answer to this is "Look at the the Top 8 Results in the Tournament Reports/Results forum and look at the percentage of cards that cost 1 and 2 mana."
Freakish, thanks for your detailed notes. Now I guess people will believe that Threshold soundly beats combo, even after the control player makes a number of game breaking errors. ; )
The 4C Landstill list is weak, but the Meddling Mages out of the sideboard should be useful. Those are almost always in my sideboard, and help pound on combo.
As to the debate about Thoughtseize and black in Threshold in general, did anybody actually think to test against something like Pat Chapin's 4C Threshold from the Legacy portion of Worlds, or a version similar to it (there were a couple of things in his list that could use improvement)? Dark Confidant is just light years better than random crap like Mystic Enforcer and a singleton Pithing Needle. I know it served many of the Pros well, and if you're playing a version with black it should definitely be in there.
Find me on Twitter at @JMJACO and @EternalCentral. If you have an interest in Vintage Eldrazi, check out my book Eldrazi Meditations.
If you still win the game, isn't the error then, by definition, NOT game breaking?
I don't know if this belongs this here, but I'll post it anyway. Bryant and I tested 20 games of Dragon Stompy against TES; 10 pre- and 10 post-board. I've typed up the matches for the pre-board, resulting in a 5-5 split:
Bryant and I played 20 games of Dragon Stompy v. TES last night, and I had a pretty resounding win (5-5 preboard, 7-3 post) I took some limited notes, so here they are:
- I drop a turn 1 3sphere + chalice @ 0, Bryant scoops after three turns.
- Bryant plays a Draw 4 when I have Slogger out, I swing, rfg 30 cards.
- Bryant's second Diminishing Returns leaves a little bit of seamen in my eye.
- Turn 1 Chalice at 1, Turn two 3sphere, turn three Slogger, turn 4 Magus to keep Bryant off of black.
- Bryant mulls to 5 and wins turn three. I gotta give him that one.
- Bryant pulls off a turn 2 D-Returns into the nuts.
- Turn 1 Mox, City, Seething Song into Chalice at 0, 1, and Trinisphere.
- Bryant makes 10 tokens on turn 1. I don't think there's a main deck out to that, 'scept maybe Jitte in some builds.
- Bryant pulls off a turn 2 IGG chain to Tendrils me out.
- Turn 1 Chalice at 0, turn two 3Sphere, turn 3 Chalice at 2.
The E.P.I.C. Syndicate: I mean, if they play a lullaby for babies they should at least play the Monster Mash when somebody dies.
how does COTV and Trinisphere react together?
If a trinisphere is out, do COTV at 0-1-2 do something?
and while we are at it, if i have 6 cards in graveyard and cast Cabal Ritual, does it get the ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh?
All those questions that remained unanswered to me :)
Robert
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