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Thread: [Deck] It's the Fear - Control in the new Era

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    [Deck] It's the Fear - Control in the new Era

    It's the Fear is a bit of a difficult deck to describe. It's capable of controlling the game in a similar manner to Landstill, but it's also capable of winning the game with counter backup in a quick manner similar to Threshold. It's capable of answering a wide variety of threats and it's also capable of drawing a tremendous amount of cards. In addition to all this, the deck is rather versatile about how to approach matchups.

    The decklist is pretty simple. I'll start with the one that I'm playing now, and then show how it evolved from the one that I played to a Top 8 finish at the NoVA Legacy Draft.

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Sensei's Divining Top
    4 Counterbalance
    4 Tarmogoyf
    3 Counterspell
    1 Life from the Loam
    4 Intuition
    3 Pernicious Deed
    2 Vedalken Shackles
    1 Eternal Witness
    4 Force of Will
    2 Engineered Explosives

    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Tropical Island
    3 Underground Sea
    3 Tundra
    1 Island
    1 Volrath's Stronghold
    1 Academy Ruins

    The deck that I played at the NoVA Legacy Draft was similar, but had a few differences that markedly changed it's strategy. Here's that one.

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Sensei's Divining Top
    4 Tarmogoyf
    3 Counterspell
    3 Counterbalance
    1 Life from the Loam
    4 Intuition
    3 Pernicious Deed
    2 Vedalken Shackles
    2 Psychatog
    1 Eternal Witness
    4 Force of Will
    2 Engineered Explosives

    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Tropical Island
    3 Flooded Strand
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Tundra
    1 Island
    1 Swamp
    1 Volrath's Stronghold
    1 Academy Ruins

    There were a couple of different thought processes that went into the creation of the first one. It's important to note here though, that Dan (nitewolf9) sent me a PM asking me about Psychatog. I responded with "I hate that guy, and he sucks." So, he kept on pestering me about him until we came up with a list. That list turned into other lists, and so on and so forth down the line. We arrived at the second list above after a few weeks, and decided that I would play that, while Dan would play Eva Green.

    However, there are problems with the deck above. The first and primary problem is the lack of the fourth Counterbalance. That card is so ridiculously amazing against so many decks in the format, that it shouldn't matter if you kill a draw. After all, even if you draw a second, it's not a big deal because the first one stuck. Secondly, Psychatog is incredibly terrible in this current format. He costs more than Tarmogoyf, and doesn't do as much as Tarmogoyf does. Third, basic Swamp is awful. The deck wants mana fixing.

    So, after realizing all these problems, I came to the conclusion that these were rather egregious problems that needed fixing. Thus, the first decklist came about. Eight fetchlands, more Counterbalance, more versatility.

    The sideboard is a matter of some concern as well. Ichorid is a beating. Not going to lie about that one. The other problematic matchup is Dragon Stompy. However, you will want to keep cards like opposing Counterbalances in mind when creating your sideboard. Even though I would say that It's the Fear is ahead against Threshold, I would also say it's by a slim margin, probably only by 60% tops. Threshold can still do it's thing and kill you (just like it can to every deck in the format), by countering all your spells and killing you with retarded Tarmogoyf. Thus, it's something to keep in mind when building a sideboard. Now, my current sideboard is still in the air. My metagame is pretty wonky, so I have to have a wide variety of cards to deal with. However, the base nine that I like are these:

    4 Leyline of the Void
    3 Krosan Grip
    2 Life from the Loam

    Leyline is very powerful against Ichorid (of which possibly one or two show up) and Krosan Grip is great against opposing Counterbalances. Life from the Loam is there as we usually have an Eva Green deck or two every week. Even though there is a Goblin deck just about every week, I usually don't board too much for Goblins. It's a matchup that with tight play, is pretty favorable for you. Post board, they get access to Krosan Grip for your Counterbalances/Shackles, but it's still not really enough. Especially if I chose to put Plague in my board for that day. However, some prospective cards for the sideboard are as follows:

    Spell Snare
    General purpose. Strong against Threshold, Eva Green, and some combo decks, Spell Snare is wide variety choice that allows you to customize the deck to fight the decks that rely on quick plays and tight curves.

    Blue Elemental Blast
    Anti-Red. Very strong against Goblins, and marginally strong against Dragon Stompy. Mildly useful against some combo decks. It's a strong choice for the Goblin matchup. But that's a matchup that I'm not tremendously worried about. Dragon Stompy is a hassle, but Blue Elemental Blast does nothing to answer Chalice of the Void. Trinisphere is irritating, but Chalice of the Void will shut off my most powerful removal.

    Pernicious Deed
    Anti-Permanent. Very strong against decks like Dragon Stompy and occasionally combo (but very rarely, I would only consider sideboarding it against Belcher if at all). Strong against Threshold, but weakened by the knowledge that they're going to bring in Krosan Grip. That diminishes the power of dropping it and then using the time that it gains you to rebuild your hand. I've considered adding this card to the sideboard for awhile now, but every time I do, I remember that this card is just not what you want for the sideboard. It doesn't do what you need it to do for a sideboard card. It's still very powerful in the maindeck, but sideboard slots are at a premium and this would be a waste.

    Vedalken Shackles
    Anti-Creature. Strong against Goblins. Strong against other Aggro decks. However, it has the same weaknesses that Pernicious Deed has. Your sideboard should generally not include cards that you have in the main. MOST of the time, that's a sign of poorly thought out sideboard strategies. Thus, it's unlikely that it's a good sideboard choice.

    Engineered Plague
    Anti-Goblins. Insane against Goblins. Relatively useful against Cephalid Breakfast. Unfortunately, I think with sideboard space being such a premium, and this card costing too much to affect the Ichorid matchup, that this card is relegated to not being stellar enough to fit the board.

    Yixlid Jailer
    Anti-Graveyard. This was originally in my sideboard for the NoVA Legacy Draft. However, I'm reasonably certain that Leyline of the Void is actually better. The fact that Leyline can come down significantly earlier and also the fact that it affects opposing Tarmogoyfs (mine are irrelevant, I want to make sure that they CANNOT win first), means that Leyline of the Void suits my aims better. Similar issue with Tormod's Crypt.

    Generally, your strategy will remain pretty simple in most matches. Drop a Counterbalance, and prevent your opponent from playing Magic. In situations where that doesn't happen, then use the deck's versatility to set up powerful board positions. Volrath's Stronghold and Academy Ruins are both insanely powerful, and should be noted accordingly. One thing that I cannot stress enough, is the fact that the deck is versatile. Know all the cards in the deck. Remember them well. Odd Intuition piles have won me quite a few games. Knowledge is one of your best weapons, so use it to the fullest.

    However, there are quite a few areas left open for discussion.

    1) The sideboard. I haven't found much that I'm satisfied with in the last six slots.

    2) Are there better Intuition targets? I've done a pretty thorough search, but I'm not certain yet.

    3) Numbers on Deed/Explosives. Explosives plays fantastically well with Ruins, and Deed isn't very partial to Counterbalance/Tarmogoyf. Does this mean that the numbers should be switched? Deed is stronger in it's capabilities and usually requires as much if not more mana than Explosives would. It's a difficult call.

    Anyway, some general matchup analysis that I've compiled while playing the deck.

    Threshold: Generally favorable. Possibly as high as 60-40. Not higher than that. Threshold is still the standalone best deck in the format, and it plays as such. Ideally, you prevent them from landing a Counterbalance while sticking your own. However, in situations where that doesn't happen, Deed and Explosives are necessary. This match will more likely than not, revolve around Counterbalance.

    Sideboard: Krosan Grip
    Side out: This is difficult. With there being many different incarnations of Threshold, it's difficult to say. A decent guideline would be to side out Shackles. However, if they seem creature heavy than board out Counterspell. It's a judgement call that has to be made given the information you have about your opponent's deck.

    Goblins: Pretty favorable. Probably around 65%. This strategy is simple. Counterbalance is important here in order to stop Warren Weirding. However, Shackles ENDS this matchup. Warren Weirding loses to Shackles, and so does most of their deck. That card, combined with Tarmogoyf and Swords, will generally seal this matchup.

    Sideboard: Nothing as of now.
    Side out: This is dependent on the six slots chosen for your sideboard. However, cards like Intuition take a long time to function here, and may be worth boarding out. Don't take out too many three casting cost cards though, it's important to maintain Counterbalance's efficacy.

    Ichorid: Complete beating. Probably around 25%. Probably lower. This strategy is simple also. Pray to whatever gods you hold dear. Swords, and a quick Tarmogoyf could theoretically steal it with abundant countermagic.

    Sideboard: Leyline of the Void
    Side out: Shackles, and Intuition. In game two, your trump card is Leyline. Protect it. They cannot win with that card in play. I highly recommend mulliganing for it. Even though they could have the bounce spell, you're putting the burden of winning on them. THEY MUST HAVE IT. Additionally, the longer you get to consolidate your position, the better it is for you. So, go for the long game.

    Dragon Stompy: Pretty poor. Probably around 30%. Moon effects are something that you're going to have to deal with. In exchange for playing remarkably powerful cards in many different colors, you have to trade something. In this scenario, it's trading power for susceptibility. You have a weakness to Moon effects. There's no great answer here, so I'd recommend living with it.

    Sideboard: Krosan Grip possibly something else depending on your board.
    Side out: Shackles is a good card IF YOU'RE WINNING. Since you should be trying to first consolidate your position, THEN win, I'd say it's a good target to board out. Counterbalance is also a decent card to board out. Since they have a funky curve, maintaining a lock with Counterbalance will be difficult. However, it's not impossible. These are however, just ideas. I haven't done as much testing as I should against Dragon Stompy.

    Landstill: Pretty amazing. Probably around 65%. Counterbalance is amazing in this matchup. You can do everything they can do, but better. This matchup is all about outplaying your opponent. Turn 2 Standstill is going to be difficult, but not the end of the game. Try to build up your manabase underneath it (hopefully with the help of a Top or something). Then break Standstill when you're prepared to start the game with enough lands in play to fight on equal terms. Preferably breaking Standstill with an end step Brainstorm (so they have to discard) is going to be best.

    Sideboard: Krosan Grip might be decent but is an unlikely choice. Life from the Loam may be a good choice if they are running Wasteland.
    Side out: Explosives and Deed are good choices to side out. You should still leave some way to deal with Enchantments/Artifacts in the main though. Getting surprised by a Moat would be unfortunate, but not game breaking. Also, Shackles is amazing in this matchup. Don't forget about it.

    That's most of them. If anybody else has questions about it, feel free to post here.
    Last edited by Deep6er; 05-28-2008 at 04:48 PM. Reason: Stupid rules. Always foiling me.
    For the foreseeable future, expect to see less of me. I've lost my internet connection, and so I'll only be able to get on by siphoning free Wi-Fi from the surrounding areas. Which isn't always consistent.

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  2. #2
    Bryant Cook
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    Re: It's the Fear - Control in the new Era.

    Looks good. How's it's combo match-up?

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    Re: It's the Fear - Control in the new Era.

    I can honestly tell you that I don't know. Haven't finished running it through the gauntlet yet.

    However, it IS important to note that it does qualify for Deck to Watch status which is why I made this thread.

    I should have finalized percentages on most matchups soon. Probably within a week or two.
    For the foreseeable future, expect to see less of me. I've lost my internet connection, and so I'll only be able to get on by siphoning free Wi-Fi from the surrounding areas. Which isn't always consistent.

    Plus, the guy that I used to leech off of has now instituted password protection. This means that I effectively do not have internet at home. :(

  4. #4

    Re: It's the Fear - Control in the new Era.

    What is your second Intuition pile? I can see the first, but after that do you just go for like... three Artifacts? Seems kind of underpowered.

    Also, I feel like a second Witness might be helpful for general utility when you don't have the Stronghold engine online to fool around with Intuition.

  5. #5

    Re: It's the Fear - Control in the new Era.

    You could easily improve the D Stompy MU by a simple 4-6 BEB/hydroblast in the board. Not that it would make it favorable but it would bring it up to at least 50% I would think
    I c h o r i d - my anti blue
    Manaless Ichorid- At least its cheeper than standard.
    We admit for the sake of the exercise that following is true:
    Landstill > Fromat
    Non-Basic Hate > Landstill
    Basics > Non-Basic Hate
    We can therefore logically conlude that
    Basics > Format

  6. #6
    Bryant Cook
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    Re: It's the Fear - Control in the new Era.

    Quote Originally Posted by lonelybaritone View Post
    What is your second Intuition pile? I can see the first, but after that do you just go for like... three Artifacts? Seems kind of underpowered.

    Also, I feel like a second Witness might be helpful for general utility when you don't have the Stronghold engine online to fool around with Intuition.
    I think his first intuition pile would be Loam and Ruins+Stronghold. Then his second Witness + cards.

  7. #7
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    Re: It's the Fear - Control in the new Era.

    Looks pretty similar to this: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...?t=6230&page=7

    However, there are some differences.

    The biggest difference I see right now is that you fit in Counterbalance. Counterbalance is obviously a very strong card. I personally find that Deed and Intuition -> Engines replaces the need for it... but it's still solid nevertheless.

    Other than that, I'm confused by the lack of Genesis. Volrath's Stronghold costs the same amount of mana as Genesis to recur a guy (3 lands)... but it doesn't create card advantage like Genesis does. You do need Cephalid Coliseum to get him in the yard, though... and I'm guessing your 1st Intuition pile consists of Loam, Stronghold, and Academy Ruins whereas mine consists of Loam, Coliseum, and Genesis. I guess it really depends on the situation... but I find Genesis to be much stronger overall since it provides actual card advantage... and I find recurring EE's is typically unecessary most of the time when I have the ability to recur Shriekmaw (I tested Ruins/EE at 1 point throughout development and I didn't find it very effecient).

    I also tried the 4c splash at 1 point in development for MD StP and SB Gaddock Teeg. I eventually came back to the 3c list... I just didn't find StP worth the mana instability.

    Last but not least, I really think either Thoughtseize, Duress, or Cabal Therapy needs to be in the maindeck... possibly in the Counterspell spots? Counterspell, to me, is extremely lacking in comparison to everything else in the deck. The mix of proactive disruption with reactive disruption is very, very strong. Plus, the ability to know what the opponent has in hand is invaluable.

    Other than that, it looks solid. Personally, I prefer the build in my signature, simply because of the way it transitions from early game to late game better (more Threshold elements, less control elements). Yours is more control oriented, though, which is going to improve other control matchups. Therefore, it's going to be metagame dependant as to which decklist would be better.

    Psychatog is incredibly terrible in this current format. He costs more than Tarmogoyf, and doesn't do as much as Tarmogoyf does.
    Psychatog is to this deck as Mystic Enforcer is to Threshold. He's there as a finisher. I cannot tell you how many games I've won simply because I cleared the table, dropped Tog, and swung for lethal the following turn. Your list doesn't quite feed the yard as well as my list due to the lack of Cephalid Coliseum... but Tog is still wicked strong. The other option is to run Tombstalker in those spots, which looks alot better in your list anyway since you don't run Wonder. I suppose that between Goyf and Shackles, you can get away without a finisher... and I suppose that with all the removal you run, you should be able to connect with the evasionless Goyf... but I still recommend a finisher. Like I said, there's been games where I pull a win out of my ass and just win out of nowhere, games where I should have lost, simply because I dropped Tog (with Wonder in the yard) and my opponent didn't topdeck an answer.
    Sligh
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    Yorion's Intuition
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

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    Re: It's the Fear - Control in the new Era.

    @Hanni: Counterbalance is so much stronger than Deed. ESPECIALLY when you have cards that fit the curve from one to three.

    Genesis is not what I'm looking for. The upside to Volrath's Stronghold is that it taps for mana. It also doesn't depend on being in the graveyard. Also, it does things when you don't have creatures to bring back. Genesis would be better if I had more creatures. It was in the original build of the deck, but we decided that Stronghold would be better because we had few creatures.

    Also, my Intuition piles are never standard. They always fit the situation. Occasionally, it's three Deeds. Sometimes, it's Shackles, Shackles, Witness. Other times, it's Counterbalance, Counterbalance, Counterbalance. I use Intuition to fit the situation, not to set up a situation.

    Thoughtseize is not sufficient in the Counterspell slot. Dan and I went over this quite a bit and we both came to the conclusion that you can't really pay the life, nor do you really want something like that. Counterspell is much more of a "pick and choose". Most of the other cards in your opponents hands can be nullified by a fair portion of your deck. It's hitting the important topdecks that can't be stopped by Counterbalance that you should be looking for. However, even though Thoughtseize stops Krosan Grip (sometimes), it's not good enough for all the other situations that need stopping. Don't get me wrong though, we considered it for quite awhile. We just came to the conclusion that Counterspell fit the aims of the deck better.

    @undone: I tried that. The fact that Blasts can't stop Chalice from happening is a big deal. I'm currently looking into better answers for Dragon Stompy and I'll definitely let you know when we come up with something good.

    @Lonelybaritone: We used to have a second Witness in the board for situations like that (against control decks and Threshold). I decided that it was not the best choice for space that's on a high premium. I could however, go back to it. I've been thinking about it quite a bit. However, the second Witness in the main I wasn't happy with. The double green in the casting cost you might want to be a bit leery of. Even though the manabase is stable, if you use fetchlands poorly, you could still screw yourself out.
    For the foreseeable future, expect to see less of me. I've lost my internet connection, and so I'll only be able to get on by siphoning free Wi-Fi from the surrounding areas. Which isn't always consistent.

    Plus, the guy that I used to leech off of has now instituted password protection. This means that I effectively do not have internet at home. :(

  9. #9

    Re: [DTW] It's the Fear - Control in the new Era.

    Vs Dragonstompy you really need to have 8 Turn 0 counterspells or need more island/forest. I think that the next best actual counterspell is sadly.... Foil, which is pretty bad. But if you think that you HAVE to do something better then BEB thats probably the next best card as it can counter set up peices, and threats during a lock. But seriously if any deck in the format loses the roll, and they go first turn moon if you dont have force you need a 1 mana answer that can be played off a single basic.

    Also Wierd thought Shattering spree, its funny under a moon....( JUST KIDDING PLEASE DONT ACTUALY USE THIS)
    I c h o r i d - my anti blue
    Manaless Ichorid- At least its cheeper than standard.
    We admit for the sake of the exercise that following is true:
    Landstill > Fromat
    Non-Basic Hate > Landstill
    Basics > Non-Basic Hate
    We can therefore logically conlude that
    Basics > Format

  10. #10
    JuJu on TMD and #TMD
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    Re: [DTW] It's the Fear - Control in the new Era.

    What are your thoughts on Vindicate? It's a pretty underrated card right now, and I think running it with Swords, EE, Deed would be kinda good. Thoughts?

    How often are you pitching to Force? It seems you're a little low on blue cards so I'm curious as to how that's been working out. Is 3 Counterspell right, or can you just not find the space for a 4th?

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    Re: [DTW] It's the Fear - Control in the new Era.

    I don't think Vindicate is the right card for this deck. Deed/Explosives can hit multiple permanents, and Swords costs a great deal less. I think it's underrated because it's just not as good as it used to be. It's too expensive to hit things in this "faster" Legacy. With things focused so much on tight curves and efficiency, Vindicate is using more mana to destroy a card than the card took to cast. That's too inefficient.

    I'm not having any problems pitching to Force. Usually, I'm only using Force very early, when I still have a decent hand size, and using Counterbalance/Counterspell later where having the other blue card is irrelevant. As the game goes on, there are usually better/more answers to problematic spells than Force.

    Three Counterspell is definitely a good number. I don't want to have my hand glutted with them, but I do want to see one a game. I don't really want to try to fit in the 4th either.
    For the foreseeable future, expect to see less of me. I've lost my internet connection, and so I'll only be able to get on by siphoning free Wi-Fi from the surrounding areas. Which isn't always consistent.

    Plus, the guy that I used to leech off of has now instituted password protection. This means that I effectively do not have internet at home. :(

  12. #12
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    Re: It's the Fear - Control in the new Era.

    Nice summary.

    1) Can you harp a bit more on what the usual purpose of Intuition is? The obvious stuff is Loam tricks, Witness tricks, and 3x of a card you really really want. What about the non-obvious uses?

    2) Landstill matchup. I assume you refer to 4C Landstill? If so, have you tested against UWb lists?

    3) A playset of Propagandas looks fairly attractive for those last SB slots. They own Ichorid if you can make it alive to turn 3 and they give fits to Goblins and random aggro, especially when paired with a Tarmogoyf in defence. On the other side, they do very little against Dragon Stompy except in multiples, or on the top of your library to counter Moons.
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    Re: [DTW] It's the Fear - Control in the new Era.

    19 blue cards are plenty to support FoW....

    I have found that propaganda is better at stalling against agro in decks like these, as that is all that plague does nowadays, stalls. Goblins wins through one plague and has grip for the second, most of the time it is a stall for deed/shackles...

    Propaganda/ghostly prison both do this better (they only attack with max 2-3 guys a turn and have to tap out to do so)... then you deed/shackles... or even just block with goyf.

    The blasts don't seem like too bad of an idea, you do have 5 ways around challice, add in the fact that challice @ one doesn't do too much, as it leaves you with your sweepers, countermagic, and blockers.

    The real threat in that MU is the moon effects (as stated earlier), which should have priority for board space (they have 8 moons, 4 challice, odds they'll see moon B4 challice... blast works).

  14. #14
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    Re: [DTW] It's the Fear - Control in the new Era.

    Vs Dragonstompy you really need to have 8 Turn 0 counterspells or need more island/forest. I think that the next best actual counterspell is sadly.... Foil, which is pretty bad. But if you think that you HAVE to do something better then BEB thats probably the next best card as it can counter set up peices, and threats during a lock. But seriously if any deck in the format loses the roll, and they go first turn moon if you dont have force you need a 1 mana answer that can be played off a single basic.
    The Dragonstompy matchup is easily fixed by dropping the white splash, running a couple more basics, and running Daze + Thoughtseize. My list actually has a very solid Dragon Stompy matchup.

    If Dragonstompy is big in a particular metagame, BEB is exactly what you want in the sideboard for that matchup.
    Sligh
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    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

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    Re: [DTW] It's the Fear - Control in the new Era.

    @Nihil: Those are most of the tricks for Intuition, however, the non-obvious uses that I like are pretty simple as well. Shuffle effect, getting triple Brainstorm for Counterbalance purposes, getting Goyf, Witness, Shackles to set up the win very quickly, and things like that.

    Also, most of my testing was against 4C Landstill. I'll get to testing UWB Landstill when I have time. Although, it should be noted that it's NEVER played down here. If there is Landstill (which is dwindling), then it's usually 4C.

    Propaganda is rather interesting. I'll definitely see if that's going to be a good fit. Thanks.

    @Freakaccident: Yeah, the blasts might be a good call, but Dragon Stompy doesn't see too much play down here either. I might do that if it picks up and just hope for the best.

    @Hanni: You're seriously downplaying how powerful Swords to Plowshares is. That card is hands-down the best removal in the format. Daze + Thoughtseize are pretty good cards, don't get me wrong, but I don't think that this deck AS IT STANDS NOW is going to be the best fit for them. Those cards work much better in THRESHOLD, and not in this deck.
    For the foreseeable future, expect to see less of me. I've lost my internet connection, and so I'll only be able to get on by siphoning free Wi-Fi from the surrounding areas. Which isn't always consistent.

    Plus, the guy that I used to leech off of has now instituted password protection. This means that I effectively do not have internet at home. :(

  16. #16
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    Re: [DTW] It's the Fear - Control in the new Era.

    Dave - We've had this discussion over PM, but It's the Fear is very similar to the Vorosh deck I've been tweaking for ages. From what I gather, both decks are the evolution of Psychatog for us.

    For reference:

    "Vorosh"
    U/b/g Landstill with Counter-Top / Goyf
    by Bardo

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Standstill
    3 Sensei's Divining Top

    4 Force of Will
    4 Counterspell
    3 Counterbalance

    3 Pernicious Deed
    3 Engineered Explosives
    2 Diabolic Edict
    2 Crucible of Worlds

    4 Tarmogoyf

    4 Mishra's Factory
    3 Wasteland
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Flooded Strand
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Underground Sea
    2 Island
    1 Breeding Pool

    Sideboard
    4 Engineered Plague
    3 Hydroblast
    3 Exirpate
    3 Duress / Thoughtseize
    2 Krosan Grip

    In relation to the deck above it seems like ITF is essentially trades Standstill for Intuition + Witness / Stronghold and tricks with Academy Ruins; otherwise, these decks are both trying to do the same thing: control the board, counter some shit and then with a large Tarmogoyf over 3-4 turns.

    Having logged a ton of hours with my ITF-variant, here's where I'm at:

    * Ubgw vs Ubg, for me, comes down to StP vs. Wasteland / stable mana. The same thing strikes me about ITF.
    * Academy Ruins is insanely slow in all but the mirror. Recurring EE with Ruins is theoretically sweet as hell, but in practice, it's a ton fucking mana and takes a depressing amount of time to actually set up. Though, vs. Thresh, an EE in the yard and Ruins on the board is often enough to elicit a scoop, so it can sometimes auto-win, albeit against an already favorable match.
    * I've tested every funky land known to MtG-playing man (Maze of Ith, Tolaria West, Academy Ruins, Tabernacle, Treetop Village) and am pretty certain you don't need the ones that can't kill your opponent or tap for blue mana, Wasteland excepted. From my experience testing Ubg Tog, long, long ago, Stronghold + Witness is an awesome synergy on paper, but like Ruins + EE, is very slow. I've dropped them all in favor of just having good, reliable mana and haven't missed tricks with Ruins, though I'm not running Intuition, which I'll agree adds more punch to the card.
    * You might want to splash a Breeding Pool in place of a Trop. I'm not sure how often it's comes up for you, but Wasteland / Extirpate on a Trop is often an auto-loss.
    * Vedalken Shackles is insane once active. Who doesn't love beating someone to death with their own stolen Tarmogoyf? But it's often 1-2 turns too slow to make a difference. I've been all over the place with the Shackles slot and think Diabolic Edict, does pretty much everything you want that card to do, quicker and for less hassle. The 3s are sometimes nice for CB, other times you just want to kill a Nimble Mongoose; though you do have the awesome StP backing up your removal. In that case, I would wonder how much you really need Shackles on top of your removal packages. They were overkill when I was running 4 StP + EEs & Deeds in 4c Landstill.

    1) The sideboard. I haven't found much that I'm satisfied with in the last six slots.
    Extirpate! That card does so much for so little.

    2) Are there better Intuition targets? I've done a pretty thorough search, but I'm not certain yet.
    You've out-ruled the Lonely Sandbar trick? I love Intuition and haven't found the magic-combo either. Have you tested Standstill in their place in this deck?

    3) Numbers on Deed/Explosives.
    I split the difference on 3/3, since both function similarly at different phases of the game. Quoting myself in the Ubg / Ubgw Landstill thread:

    Here's how I see it. Once the game is underway, I would typically -- though not always -- want to have Deed, since it cleans up more and can best maximize the card advantage that can be gained by the sweepers. There may be some fringe reasons for wanting EE over Deed on turn 6 or so, but they're pretty minimal.

    Turns 1 - 4, I almost always want EE, for the following reasons:

    1) Can clear the board of all ETW token on turn 2 with any two lands in the deck

    2a) Can be played and activated for 1 with only a basic Island + Wasteland + Factory. (etc.) That is, less acrobatics with your mana to produce the same effect.

    2b) Doesn't force you to produce two different kinds of dual lands if you don't want to (e.g. you can nuke CBs, Goyfs, Confidants, 'what-have-yous' with just an Island + Trop + Factory)

    3) In general, a turn faster ({C}{D}{E} + 2 activation; vs. 1BG [3] + x) vs. everything.

    4) Picture of a bunch of elephants being detonated is just awesome.

    5) [Fringe] Deed more likely to be Needle'd / Mage'd.

    Again, Deed has many relative advantages over EE at different points of the game; but many other times I would rather be holding an EE (esp. the early game). Hence, the 3/3 split in my lists.

    The card type diversity is also important to support Tarmogoyf.

    Anyway, this is a cool deck and a nice write-up. I like it.

  17. #17
    Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
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    Re: [DTW] It's the Fear - Control in the new Era.

    @Hanni: You're seriously downplaying how powerful Swords to Plowshares is. That card is hands-down the best removal in the format. Daze + Thoughtseize are pretty good cards, don't get me wrong, but I don't think that this deck AS IT STANDS NOW is going to be the best fit for them. Those cards work much better in THRESHOLD, and not in this deck.
    I know that StP is the best spot removal spell in the format, I wasn't disputing that. I was just saying that I personally did not like the manabase instability that came with it. Plus I play Genesis, which makes Shriekmaws amazing.

    The other thing I was getting at was that Daze + Thoughtseize are great vs Dragonstompy and not that Daze would be a good choice in your build, because it wouldn't. My build is way more like Threshold while yours is way more like Landstill, like I mentioned earlier. Your matchup vs (board) control decks is going to be better than mine... in the same vein, my combo (and Dragonstompy) matchups should be better than yours.
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  18. #18
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    Re: [DTW] It's the Fear - Control in the new Era.

    OK, well couple of things here.

    Academy Ruins also supports Vedalken Shackles in this deck. That's huge. Also, with Intuition backing it, it takes a great deal less time. Remember, that while Vorosh-still may approach it with similar cards, It's the Fear approaches it with a completely different mindset. Intuition and Standstill are vastly different cards and allow for vastly different approaches to things.

    Also, you have SEVEN lands that don't tap for colored mana. I have two. You rely on your lands to help you win the game (attacking). I don't. All mine need to do is tap for mana. That's it. I argue that the miniscule amount of damage that they do to your manabase is well worth it. Don't forget, you use Crucible of Worlds to get back your attackers. I need to use Stronghold to make sure that I can do the same thing.

    I'm not going to do that. Wasteland + Extirpate will beat me, sure. Whatever. I honestly do not care. That doesn't happen down here. Additionally, Shackles makes for a great win condition.

    Vedalken Shackles vs. Diabolic Edict is an entirely different classification. While they both DO fit into the realm of "creature-control" Vedalken Shackles is ALSO card advantage. That's important. Also, Vedalken Shackles is a great foil to Goblins and Aggro strategies in general, while Diabolic Edict helps against ONE creature. I'll take the tradeoff.

    I've never been happy with Extirpate. That card does so little. I really don't think that this deck compares well with Landstill. The aims are just different. It's the Fear is significantly more versatile in its approach to controlling and winning the game that it's like talking about apples and oranges.

    I DO appreciate you taking time to talk about this though, but I'm reasonably certain that the decks are different enough to warrant a different look as opposed to looking at it through the Landstill players lens. No offense.

    Also, the Lonely Sandbar trick is bad. THAT DEFINITELY takes too much time. The danger with Intuition is definitely the Danger of Cool Things. I've tried to keep it as focused as possible while still maintaining that versatility.

    EDIT: @Hanni: My argument is that the sheer power of Swords to Plowshares is worth the slight manabase instability. I can tell you with a great deal of certainty that the manabase is much stronger than it looks. Also, Genesis + Shriekmaw requires a pretty fair bit of set up. Additionally, Shriekmaw just doesn't help against some things. Swords being instant speed and not worrying about other things like color is a great boon to what I'm trying to do.
    Last edited by Deep6er; 05-26-2008 at 03:14 PM. Reason: Posted while I was typing.
    For the foreseeable future, expect to see less of me. I've lost my internet connection, and so I'll only be able to get on by siphoning free Wi-Fi from the surrounding areas. Which isn't always consistent.

    Plus, the guy that I used to leech off of has now instituted password protection. This means that I effectively do not have internet at home. :(

  19. #19
    Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
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    Re: [DTW] It's the Fear - Control in the new Era.

    Also, the Lonely Sandbar trick is bad. THAT DEFINITELY takes too much time. The danger with Intuition is definitely the Danger of Cool Things. I've tried to keep it as focused as possible while still maintaining that versatility.
    Cephalid Coliseum is much better. The lonely Sandbar trick requires multiples, Coliseum requires 1. Now I do agree that wasting the land drop for the turn to use its card advantage is definitely a drawback, its not something that needs to be done every turn. In my build, it also fills the role of getting both Genesis and Wonder in the yard, so I find its inclusion to be well deserved.

    I DO appreciate you taking time to talk about this though, but I'm reasonably certain that the decks are different enough to warrant a different look as opposed to looking at it through the Landstill players lens. No offense.
    I know this was addressed to Bardo... but I think its only going to strengthen the topic by listing and explaining similar decks. At the end of the day, the only thing that really matters is if the deck wins or not. There's going to be multiple different ways (decklists) to do that. The topic at hand is exactly what your topic header says... control in the new era.

    For reference, I'll just go ahead and list my decklist on here as well:

    U/G/b DAT Thresh (or TAT if you'd prefer, Thresh-a-Tog)

    Lands (19)
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Flooded Strand
    1 Windswept Heath
    2 Wooded Foothills
    2 Tropical Island
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Bayou
    2 Island
    1 Swamp
    1 Forest
    1 Cephalid Coliseum
    1 Wasteland

    Creatures (15)
    4 Nimble Mongoose
    4 Tarmogoyf
    2 Psychatog
    1 Wonder
    1 Genesis
    3 Shriekmaw

    Spells (26)
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Intuition
    1 Life from the Loam
    4 Force of Will
    3 Daze
    3 Thoughtseize
    3 Pernicious Deed

    Sideboard (15)
    3 Cabal Therapy
    3 Extirpate
    2 Krosan Grip
    2 Pithing Needle
    2 Engineered Explosives
    1 Pernicious Deed
    1 Stinkweed Imp
    1 Gigapede
    Sligh
    Echo Stompy
    /r Miracle Intuition
    Yorion's Intuition
    5c Hollow Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  20. #20
    Folk Punk Pirate
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    Re: [DTW] It's the Fear - Control in the new Era.

    Wow, so this finally is in the DtB-forum? I'll take credit for that =)
    My teammate Marius and I played this deck to a top8 finish at a local 40 man tourney (and I won another small tourney with it) and I have to say: This deck is really brilliant!
    But there're some points I don't like about it:
    1.) The white splash. In my Metagame Stax and AggroLoam are a real force and the manabase of this deck is shaky at best, when confronted with multiple Wastelands (and you're unable to resolve an Intuition) and/or Blood Moon effects. I don't think the raw power of Swords (which I'm not questioning at all) is worth that.
    2.) The lack of carddraw. This deck doesn't need the carddraw, if you're able to resolve a CB, but without it, there aren't really any opportunities for this deck to generate cardadvantage. There were some situations, where I wished I had access to real carddraw not just Brainstorm (mostly against control.decs).
    3.) The name. This name is terrible - no offence intendet. Make it cooler =)

    Anyway, after much deliberation with my teammate Clemens "der_imaginäre_Freunde" I came up with the following list:

    The Glenlivet

    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Flooded Strand
    4 Tropical Island
    3 Underground Sea
    3 Island
    1 Swamp
    1 Cephalid Coliseum
    1 Volrath's Stronghold
    1 Academy Ruins
    1 Wasteland

    3 Dark Confidant
    4 Tarmogoyf
    1 Psychatog
    1 Eternal Witness

    1 Engineered Explosives
    3 Sensei's Divining Top
    2 Vedalken Shackles
    4 Counterbalance
    3 Pernicious Deed
    4 Force of Will
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Intuition
    4 Smother
    1 Life from the Loam

    Sideboard:
    4x Extirpate
    4x BEB
    4x Plague
    3x Grip

    Clemens doesn't like the Bobs (he opted for AKs) but so far, they have been treating me well.
    Sneaky Pirates of Doom - Not really a Legacy Team anymore.

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