[Deck] It's the Fear - Control in the new Era

[mackaber]

Has anyone done serious testing with any incarnation of this dec versus combo? Seems like the dec will need to primarily rely on CB/top to beat combo and I'm pretty sure that's not sufficient when not backed by a clock or additional disruption (besides the obv FoW).

[Deep6er]

In tournament experience against both TES and Fetchland Tendrils, I've come out ahead. Counterbalance, Counterspell, Force of Will, followed by Tarmogoyf is pretty hard. It's very similar to how Threshold will beat them, but I have maindeck outs to Empty the Warrens.

Just based on tournament experience, I'd say the matchup is fairly even possibly favoring It's the Fear. Not by a wide margin mind you, but probably around a 55-60% matchup in It's the Fear's favor.

[Zach Tartell]

In tournament experience against both TES and Fetchland Tendrils, I've come out ahead. Counterbalance, Counterspell, Force of Will, followed by Tarmogoyf is pretty hard. It's very similar to how Threshold will beat them, but I have maindeck outs to Empty the Warrens.

Just based on tournament experience, I'd say the matchup is fairly even possibly favoring It's the Fear. Not by a wide margin mind you, but probably around a 55-60% matchup in It's the Fear's favor.

I'll admit that having Counterspell is an asset, but you have like a third or... four ninths? of the threats of Thresh. Even a goose is a good clock compared to an opponent who you could just Chant.

[nitewolf9]

I'll admit that having Counterspell is an asset, but you have like a third or... four ninths? of the threats of Thresh. Even a goose is a good clock compared to an opponent who you could just Chant.

Don't forget that you can also EOT intuition for 3 goyfs if you need a clock, especially since you only need one in that matchup. Gota love intuition.

[Shugyosha]

I'll admit that having Counterspell is an asset, but you have like a third or... four ninths? of the threats of Thresh. Even a goose is a good clock compared to an opponent who you could just Chant.

Threshold usually plays it slow and controllish here so Geese often have the problem of reaching threshold unless they combo early and you counter alot but in this case you are in a good position anyways. Large beaters rarely see play here because you want to leave your mana open most of the time and you will be cantripping for counters not lands.

Tarmogoyfs on the other hand are big pretty big due to combo's usually high artifact and sorcery count.

Don't forget that you can also EOT intuition for 3 goyfs if you need a clock, especially since you only need one in that matchup. Gota love intuition.

Or 3 Counterbalance if you play them.

[nitewolf9]

Or 3 Counterbalance

Yes, obviously, but I thought we were talking about when you had counterbalance and needed to finish them off. Although I think you can take your time if you have the counterbalance lock set up.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Let me be the first to admit that I'm completely biased towards my own deck, but I'm with Hanni on most/all of his points. The biggest disadvantage that I see with Stronghold right now is that although it taps for mana, it taps for colourless mana in a 4-colour deck whose removal is entirely dependent upon coloured mana. I tried to go 4c with my own deck some time ago, but like Hanni I went back to three colours for stability. Granted, the build was not quite like this one--still, I found that I was really making an Achilles Heel out of an already shaky manabase (at the time). Indeed, the most serious problem, for me, was that when I fetched out Tundras for my removal (StP), I was actually cutting myself off from my more pro-active plays (Deed, creatures, etc.). Just for fun, and to keep up the dialogue, how about a list of pros and cons for each?


Genesis:

Pros:

-Can be hardcast (in-colour fatty)
-Card advantage (doesn't eat a draw, leaving more room for main phase choices)
-Recurs creatures
-Immune to Pithing Needle

Cons:

-Must be in the graveyard (vulnerable to graveyard hate, requries some form of discard)
-Mana-intensive (3 mana)




Volrath's Stronghold:

Pros:

-Recurs creatures
-Produces mana
-Not as vulnerable to temporary graveyard hate

Cons:

-Needs creatures in the graveyard (still slightly vulnerable to graveyard hate)
-Mana-intensive (3 mana)
-Vulnerable to mana-hate (Blood Moon effects, Wasteland, Back to Basics, etc.)
-Eats a draw (particularly problematic with Academy Ruins)
-Produces colourless mana in 4c deck
-Vulnerable to Pithing Needle
-Since it needs to hit play, Life from the Loam becomes a necessary support structure, since it's harder to Intuition it into your hand



Now, all those led me, personally, to cut out Stronghold and rely only on Genesis. Overall, I feel it's a safer move--particularly since Genesis isn't too hard to hardcast, either.



Also, to pick up on Hanni's point about StP, I too do not feel it's a necessary or even particularly useful addition to the deck. It doesn't open up much sideboard-wise (the white mana, that is), and all it's useful for is removing a creature or ramping up EE to four (and really, what costs four that's not easier to remove with Deed?). The cost to the deck's manabase and consistency, however, seems far too significant. With Deed AND (recurring) EE, all you need StP for are Reanimator-sized fatties--so why not instead opt for something that can both take care of many such fatties and up your redundancy factor by being recurrable (e.g. Shriekmaw)? It's hard to strike the right balance between Shriekmaw and other removal, but you don't need many for it to be effective, particularly with so many sweepers. It's easily complemented by Sudden Death, Damnation, etc., and it has the added bonus of greatly strengthening your manabase, leaving you with significantly better Landstill and Dragon Stompy matchups (although, given the decklist, probably still not stellar). Hell, you're even running Shackles, so what use is StP, really?

I think that the question that needs to be asked about StP is which matchups it improves in a manner that some other form of (in-colour) removal could not.

And since you're already running the Intuition engine, why not consider Wonder and Cephalid Coliseum (as Hanni also mentioned)? They're a perfect fit.

[raharu]

@ Hanni and Goaswerfraiejen: There is a glaring lack of Counterbalance in both of your lists. This fundemental difference drasticly alters the way that the decks play, pretty much mitigating just about every comparision that you can make.

EDIT: It doesn't really matter if Stronghold eats your draws in the late game because you most likely have a CB Soft-lock so that you don't have to have cards in hand to answer threats.

StP isn't that useful of addition? What?

[Citrus-God]

@Hanni and Gaoswerfraiejen:

I hope to god you two realize that your concept and game play philosophies on your decks is completely different from It's the Fear. It's the Fear is a control deck. Period. Both your lists are aggressive midgame decks with LftL as a draw engine. Gearhart's deck is Control first, Aggro second. You can tell because he's running Counterbalance as a soft lock engine as well as another completely different engine involving recursion of removal to make the game play like Keeper. So folks, it's Keeper 2k8. it fixed many flaws of the old Keeper (lack of narrow cards, more aggressive win conditions, utilization of card quality advantage).


Also, why does Stronghold matter when you can Intuition for your tools and keep recurring them? You need removal? Sure, Intuition for the things you need. Sweeped the board clean? Well Intuition for 3 CB or something like that.

Stronghold doesnt kill your draws. If you're afraid that Stronghold kills your draws, Intuition for Meditate and draw away.

[Shugyosha]

Volrath's Stronghold:

Cons:

-Needs creatures in the graveyard (still slightly vulnerable to graveyard hate)
-Mana-intensive (3 mana)
-Vulnerable to mana-hate (Blood Moon effects, Wasteland, Back to Basics, etc.)
-Eats a draw (particularly problematic with Academy Ruins)
-Produces colourless mana in 4c deck
-Vulnerable to Pithing Needle
-Since it needs to hit play, Life from the Loam becomes a necessary support structure, since it's harder to Intuition it into your hand

I don't see the cons here.

-Sure it needs a creature thats the point of a recur strategy after all.

-It strains the mana base less than Genesis. The creature you usually recur is Tarmogoyf which costs you 3GG to recur and play with genesis vs. 3GB with stronghold which is much better especially in a 4c build. Now imagine Witness recur and play with Genesis: 3GGG.

-Stronghold is a utility card for intuition. Its a non-mana slot as Genesis. You cannot count it to you land base, it just happens to have a mana ability.

-In a deck with Deed, Explosives, Tog (CounterTop) I think there are better things to Needle most of the time or otherwise your Needle wouldn't last long.

-If you draw Stronghold early it can go only really quick and makes mana. Genesis is just a dead hand card unless you happen to get 5 mana, tap out and hope no Swords come along.

If counterbalance is played you can also use Stronghold to put a creature with the right casting cost on top.

[Deep6er]

@Go... something (sorry, but your name is really hard): There are quite a few things you're missing in your analysis of Stronghold vs. Genesis.

1) Pithing Needle. If they're using Needle on Stronghold as opposed to DEED, EXPLOSIVES, Academy Ruins, Sensei's Divining Top, or Vedalken Shackles, then I'm perfectly happy with them making a gigantic glaringly huge mistake. That's not a drawback nor can it be considered one.

2) You're forgetting that using Genesis' ability is going to likely eat a turn. Three mana and then the mana required to play the creature is VASTLY different from using Stronghold AT THE END OF YOUR OPPONENT'S TURN in order to set it up for your turn. Secondly, that does NOT count as "eating a draw", it's like you drew a card that was EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANTED. There's no lost card advantage.

3) Volrath's Stronghold is not in any way hampered by graveyard hate. It's because it still does something even when it can't do that other purpose. It still taps for mana. Genesis will not do anything in the graveyard. Additionally, getting Genesis into the graveyard usually requires doing something in addition to just having him in your deck. Volrath's Stronghold requires no such prerequisite. You play the land, and then later, you're free to activate the ability if you want.

4) Life from the Loam is already part of an important support structure to the deck. That argument is flawed because I rarely search up Stronghold (or Ruins). Life from the Loam is a generally useful card that I occasionally search up in order to get some more lands in play.

These are all important factors that you kind of glossed right on over. I know you're a big fan of TarmoTog, but this isn't that deck nor does it want to be.

Your points about Swords are mind boggling. Swords is an incredibly powerful tool that allows you to deal with creatures unconditionally. That unconditionally part there is a big deal. You never have to worry about your opponent having black creatures, or other stupid crap like that. Additionally, Swords is active from turn one. Which matters quite a bit for that Lackey opening.

Also, I've stated time and again that the manabase is fine and that I've had no problems with it. Even in the face of Wasteland. Sure, the time I lost to Aggro Loam at the NoVA Legacy Draft (where he drew 7 Wastelands) might be a factor, but that's an abnormality, not the norm. Seriously.

Also, I said that I had no problems playing against Landstill. In fact, that's one of the matchups that I want to see the most. I LOVE playing against Landstill with It's the Fear. I'm not afraid of them in the slightest.

I will admit to being slightly worried about Dragon Stompy, but that's because Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Moon effects and fast beaters should be a worry for most decks. Fortunately, that deck doesn't always do what it's trying to do and thus doesn't dominate the format. Dragon Stompy has it's own problems keeping it out of popularity so why not let the Dragon Stompy players worry about that. The point is, you're inflating this supposed "weak manabase" argument out of proportion.

Wonder and Cephalid Coliseum are not useful. Why do I care if my creatures fly? Why do I need to bend my cards out of proportion in order to hopefully, maybe score some card advantage? After all, Cephalid Coliseum + Life from the Loam is a two card combo that gets you some card advantage. Conversely, I can just NOT run Cephalid Coliseum and be perfectly happy without it. Wonder? The hell? Why? That doesn't even make sense.

Raharu is right. What the hell are you guys talking about?

[Parcher]

I will admit to being slightly worried about Dragon Stompy, but that's because Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Moon effects and fast beaters should be a worry for most decks. Fortunately, that deck doesn't always do what it's trying to do and thus doesn't dominate the format. Dragon Stompy has it's own problems keeping it out of popularity so why not let the Dragon Stompy players worry about that.

Not to derail the thread, but I have some questions about this.

1. I have tested Dragon Stompy more than anyone, and against seasoned players with a variety of decks. It "does what it is trying to do" as consistantly as any non-Threshold deck in Legacy. And does it better than most.

2. Dragon Stompy is a somewhat new deck, and is very different from certain current strategies. Popularity is a relative term, and only has importance in personal metagames. Whatever "problems" you percieve should be better itemized.

3. As far as "dominating", for the amount of times it has been piloted by competant players at tournaments, I don't think a single deck has had better placements in the past six months than Dragon Stompy except maybe TES.

4. Solidarity was nether popular, nor widely played. It also has some glaring holes that while rarely faced in a tournament setting, completely hosed the deck. And both of us have seen it go on and on, and fail to "do what it was trying to do", with far more slots devoted to manipulation than Dragon Stompy. Yet for a time, it was a deck that every Legacy deckbuilder had to consider when choosing for a tournament. Would you classify these two decks in the same category?

[Hanni]

@Hanni and Gaoswerfraiejen:

I hope to god you two realize that your concept and game play philosophies on your decks is completely different from It's the Fear. It's the Fear is a control deck. Period. Both your lists are aggressive midgame decks with LftL as a draw engine. Gearhart's deck is Control first, Aggro second. You can tell because he's running Counterbalance as a soft lock engine as well as another completely different engine involving recursion of removal to make the game play like Keeper. So folks, it's Keeper 2k8. it fixed many flaws of the old Keeper (lack of narrow cards, more aggressive win conditions, utilization of card quality advantage).

They are both control decks... my deck is aggro/control early and board control mid-late. I just don't utilize as much control as David's list because I'm hybridized. My list doesn't use Lftl as a draw engine nearly as much as it uses Genesis as a draw engine... and yes, Genesis IS a draw engine. That's why I prefer it over Stronghold. My deck has recurrable removal too with Genesis + Shriekmaw... the only difference is that our removal doesn't hit artifacts/enchantments/black creatures but is more cost effecient.

I didn't pop into this thread to say my deck was better... I popped on this thread because the decklists are very similar in concept and design. ITF wants to Intuition for engine pieces and so does TarmoTog/DAT Thresh... both lists want to use recurable creatures and removal. CounterTop not being in our lists is a moot point because we could easily fit it if we reworked the deck to accomodate it (and I haven't because I don't think it's necessary in my shell). The only difference is that this deck is assuming a pure control role while our decks combine aggro/control with pure control... and I think there are pros and cons to both directions, which was why I posted in this thread in the first place.

The problem with my deck before was that it has always been too slow... I've been working with DAT and Aggro DAT since 2006. I've finally got it to a point where I think I've found a good balance. David's deck is obviously slower, as Bardo pointed out... for example, Intuition + Academy Ruins + Shackles = 9UU. Whether this is a good or bad thing is something that I think needs to be determined.

You're forgetting that using Genesis' ability is going to likely eat a turn.

And Volrath's Stronghold doesn't? They both cost 3 mana.

Three mana and then the mana required to play the creature is VASTLY different from using Stronghold AT THE END OF YOUR OPPONENT'S TURN in order to set it up for your turn.

I only see this being valid for casting Intuition or Counterspell (maybe Brainstorm too). We don't run Counterspell and we don't really need to cast additional Intuitions if we already have Genesis in the yard. Maybe this is important for Counterbalance, if you're curving so tight that you don't leave 1 mana open. Then again, we also don't run Counterbalance so it's not an issue for us.

Secondly, that does NOT count as "eating a draw", it's like you drew a card that was EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANTED. There's no lost card advantage.

I completely agree here.

Life from the Loam is already part of an important support structure to the deck. That argument is flawed because I rarely search up Stronghold (or Ruins). Life from the Loam is a generally useful card that I occasionally search up in order to get some more lands in play.

I completely agree here as well.

Also, I said that I had no problems playing against Landstill. In fact, that's one of the matchups that I want to see the most. I LOVE playing against Landstill with It's the Fear. I'm not afraid of them in the slightest.

I'm also pretty content with my Landstill matchup. The only thing I'm worried about vs them is SB Extirpates, which effects you all the same, if not more since you run less win conditions. You do run Counterbalance though, so it's probably around the same as far as how much of a threat it is.

I will admit to being slightly worried about Dragon Stompy, but that's because Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Moon effects and fast beaters should be a worry for most decks. Fortunately, that deck doesn't always do what it's trying to do and thus doesn't dominate the format. Dragon Stompy has it's own problems keeping it out of popularity so why not let the Dragon Stompy players worry about that. The point is, you're inflating this supposed "weak manabase" argument out of proportion.

I think Dragon Stompy is a very strong deck that has only been escalating in popularity and will continue to grow in popularity as more and more decks continue to be built with the idea in mind that "it's only 1 bad matchup." I've seen this mindset all over The Source. My deck actually has a very solid Dragon Stompy matchup because of the additions of Daze and Thoughtseize, as well as 4 basic lands, as I mentioned earlier.

Wonder and Cephalid Coliseum are not useful. Why do I care if my creatures fly?

Both are extremely useful.

In your deck, you run enough creature removal that an evasive creature is probably not necessary, so I can see it being less useful in your list. But it's strong in our lists, especially with Tog as a finisher.

Cephalid Coliseum isn't necessary in your deck as a discard outlet for Genesis/Wonder, so again, it's less useful in your list when compared to ours. However, it generates very nice card advantage in the situations where its appropriate to use it... and it fills the graveyard nicely for Goyf/Tog/Tombstalker too (which I realize you only run Goyf). I'd be inclined to say it's a very bad card in your list though, specifically because of how much slower and more mana intensive your list is, and thus you don't want to be skipping land drops, ever.

@ Hanni and Goaswerfraiejen: There is a glaring lack of Counterbalance in both of your lists. This fundemental difference drasticly alters the way that the decks play, pretty much mitigating just about every comparision that you can make.

Raharu is right. What the hell are you guys talking about?

So you are saying that Thresh lists with CounterTop and without CounterTop shouldn't be discussed in comparison because they have a "drasticly different" gameplan? I've yet to see the Threshold lists in the DtB forum get split into "Tempo Thresh" and "CounterTop Thresh" threads. Until then, how is this any different?

[Citrus-God]

They are both control decks... my deck is aggro/control early and board control mid-late. I just don't utilize as much control as David's list because I'm hybridized.

And David's deck isnt hybridized? I'm sure he can open up playing Aggro if he needs to.

My list doesn't use Lftl as a draw engine nearly as much as it uses Genesis as a draw engine... and yes, Genesis IS a draw engine. That's why I prefer it over Stronghold. My deck has recurrable removal too with Genesis + Shriekmaw... the only difference is that our removal doesn't hit artifacts/enchantments/black creatures but is more cost effecient.

Dave doesnt use LftL as his draw engine; he uses Intuition and his recursion lands as his "draw engine."

As for his removal, he plays it much differently than how you play yours. He wants to wipe the board clean or at least leverage it in his favor followed up by a CB/Top for a soft-lock. You just want your threats in play and slowly leverage it using cards like Shriekmaw.

And Volrath's Stronghold doesn't? They both cost 3 mana.

It takes less effort to get Stronghold set up and Stronghold can be activated EOT.

[Hanni]

And David's deck isnt hybridized? I'm sure he can open up playing Aggro if he needs to.

He's still hybridized, but in a similar fashion to Landstill. 4 Goyfs as the only aggro with 4 Brainstorm as the only cantrip makes him opening up playing aggro very infrequent.

Dave doesnt use LftL as his draw engine; he uses Intuition and his recursion lands as his "draw engine."

Loam is a draw engine, so if it's in the deck, he's using it. 1G for 3 cards, albeit lands (of course at the expense of the draw step), is +2 CA. It's only something he's gonna need to do when he has no more lands in hand, but it's still CA when he casts it. Therefore, it is considered a draw engine.

I also use Intuition and recursion as my draw engine. I'm not understanding what you are you trying to get at here.

On a sidenote, I don't use Loam + Coliseum every turn... on the contrary, I only use it once to get Genesis/Wonder in the yard and I don't utilize it again until I have enough landrops to use Genesis, cast the creature, cast Loam, and use Coliseum, which is very very deep into the lategame at that point.

As for his removal, he plays it much differently than how you play yours. He wants to wipe the board clean or at least leverage it in his favor followed up by a CB/Top for a soft-lock. You just want your threats in play and slowly leverage it using cards like Shriekmaw.

I want to wipe the board clean too sometimes, that's why I run Deed. Instead of dropping a CounterTop lock, I drop a Tog and swing. Otherwise, me cleaning the board and dropping Goyf is the same as him cleaning the board and dropping Goyf. I leverage Shriekmaw, but how is it leveraged slowly, or at least any slower than how he leverages EE? Similarly, Genesis + hardcast Shriekmaw is a pretty nice play once I have the mana available, which is just another way I can generate card advantage. So 6GB gives me +2 CA, while Ruins + EE@2, hitting only 1 target (if he's constantly hitting the board, odds are its a 1 for 1), = 6U for 0 CA. Yea, yea, I get it, he doesn't need card advantage because he has CounterTop, Shackles, and more sweepers.

It takes less effort to get Stronghold set up and Stronghold can be activated EOT.

How so? He needs to cast Intuition, dredge Loam, cast Loam, and play Stronghold. I need to cast Intuition, dredge Loam, cast Loam, and play Cephalid Coliseum (to discard Genesis).

Yea, I need to tap U and sac the Coliseum... but I'm also drawing 3 and discarding 3, and in this process, replacing excess lands with actual cards and filling the graveyard up (in his current list this doesn't matter as much but in my current list it does).

I still don't understand how that is really any more effort. After that, I can pay the same 3 mana to recur but I get actual card advantage. Yea, he runs more sweepers, has Counterbalance, and has Shackles to negate the card advantage difference.

The real difference we have between these 2 cards is that Genesis generates card advantage while Stronghold can activate at instant speed.

[Citrus-God]

Loam is a draw engine, so if it's in the deck, he's using it. 1G for 3 cards, albeit lands (of course at the expense of the draw step), is +2 CA. It's only something he's gonna need to do when he has no more lands in hand, but it's still CA when he casts it. Therefore, it is considered a draw engine.

That's like saying Crucible of Worlds is an draw engine in Landstill. Sadly, CoW isnt a draw engine, it is a form of card advantage engine, but draw isnt one of them. Drawing involves the act of finding cards; Crucible of Worlds just recurs Wasteland, Manland, or a Fetchland, and none of those cards are board sweepers.

Life from the Loam in this deck is to be searched up by Intuition when you need extra lands. Gearhart also said that he barely even Intuitions for Academy Ruins or Volrath's Stronghold. Life from the Loam is being used in this deck as a mana source or a way to protect those pieces. Besides, I doubt he usually tutors for recursion unless he alright has everything he needs. Also, if LftL in It's the Fear were to be a draw engine, he'd run Coliseum or Lonely Sandbar.

I also use Intuition and recursion as my draw engine. I'm not understanding what you are you trying to get at here.

He uses recursion as a card quality engine, but not as a draw engine. Intuition is being used as card quality enabler.

On a sidenote, I don't use Loam + Coliseum every turn... on the contrary, I only use it once to get Genesis/Wonder in the yard and I don't utilize it again until I have enough landrops to use Genesis, cast the creature, cast Loam, and use Coliseum, which is very very deep into the lategame at that point.

He doesnt try to Intuition for LftL + Recursion Land. It's usually done in different sequences with different Intuition piles each or he draws into it.
[QUOTE]
I want to wipe the board clean too sometimes, that's why I run Deed. Instead of dropping a CounterTop lock, I drop a Tog and swing.[quote]

What if the Tog gets Swords'd the next turn? What if the opponent was slowrolling threats and drops a higher quality than you the next turn? Better yet, what if he did that and dropped Counterbalance and Top to protect that threat?

Yea, yea, I get it, he doesn't need card advantage because he has CounterTop, Shackles, and more sweepers.

Exactly. He sweeps the board clean, all he needs to drop is a Shackles. Now if the opponent is somehow able to recover, he can just Witness back a board sweeper and detonate the whole board.

How so? He needs to cast Intuition, dredge Loam, cast Loam, and play Stronghold. I need to cast Intuition, dredge Loam, cast Loam, and play Cephalid Coliseum (to discard Genesis).

You need in include Genesis in the pile then to execute this. He can just go for either Loam or Stronghold or both. If he has a pile with Stronghold, he wouldnt LftL. He had a pile with LftL, he wouldnt need Stronghold. You however, must include Genesis once you grab Coliseum and Loam.

I still don't understand how that is really any more effort. After that, I can pay the same 3 mana to recur but I get actual card advantage. Yea, he runs more sweepers, has Counterbalance, and has Shackles to negate the card advantage difference.

You lose a land drop. This is a huge difference.

The real difference we have between these 2 cards is that Genesis generates card advantage while Stronghold can activate at instant speed.

And why is Stronghold more suited for It's the Fear? Well, because this is a deck that cherishes the idea of being last to act. Being able to do things eot is a huge difference in this deck. Your opponent ends his turn, you know what his threats are, you use Intuition/Stronghold/Ruins to answer those threats.

[mackaber]

Just got back from a small local tourney (14 players). I played 3-1 and finished 3rd. This was the list I played

8 fetches
3 trops
3 Underground sea
1 breeding pool
2 island
1 swamp
1 wasteland
1 academy ruins
1 stronghold
1 lonely sandbar

4 Goyf
1 Witness
1 Tog
1 Shriekmaw

4 Counterbalance
3 Counter
4 Force

2 Smother
1 Chainers edict
2 EE
1 Shakels
3 Deed

3 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
3 Divining Top
1 Loam

SB:
3 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
1 Tormods Crypt
3 Spell Snare

I played against:
Fetchland Tendrils (1-2) Game one I get balance top which he can't beat. Games 2 and 3 I get shitty draws and succumb to Dark Confidants. Weird Games. Especially after boarding the matchup doesnt feel overly favorable since they bring grips and bobs, I really would have liked to have some hand disruption in the board.
Dragon Stompy (2-0): He couldn't find seething songs before the tournament and doesn't play too well. Blasts out of the board were awesome.
Mono Black Aggro (with the Conamination Bitterblossom Combo) I win 2-0. I was pretty sure the only way he could win barring a turn one hippy or something silly would be bitterblossom Contamination. None of that ever happend and i smashed him easily.
MUC (2-0): All he can ever do to win is resolve B2B. He doesn't draw one game 1 while the engine runs. Game 2 I come equipped with grips and play it careful and win fairly easily.

The dec was lot's of fun to play and is inherently powerful. I was also rather happy with my sideboard altough I'm not sure extirpate was the right call. Spell snares were good at negating the decs greatest weakness it's slowness especially when on the draw game 2, they might even belong in the main since the dec is such a slowpoke. At the moment I'm trying to figure out if and how the combo matchup can be improved, also lowering the mana curve a bit seems nesecesary.

[landstill101]

I have loved the deck, in every way possible. I'm happy that it has won a couple of big tournies soo that it is on here and can be tweaked, First off this deck needs white, no I'll rephase that, this deck needs STP, this deck just like every other deck in the format(other than combo) will lose to an unanswered first turn lackey(ok about 90% of the time because I have seen a goblin player drop a fanatic with lackey), force of will is not an answer to lackey or mono blue decks would be in top 8 every tourny, the Deck needs a very easy cheap answer to anything, All of the lists that have been listed without white, can't handle tombstalker, can't handle enforcer, heck can't handle a shusher in time or cheap enough to still stop a combo player. This deck needs Stp to fix that small problem and without it, you will lose to fast aggro more times that you will be able to count. Also the arguement of a shaky manabase is kinda outdated, really its worth it to add the white(pls read above) and if you take out white, you add another sea(which doesn't change the hurt from wasteland) and maybe 1 more basic, 1 more basic still isn't gonna help you win against a wasteland lock or stompy, its just better to have the stp and play magic with skill.

The talk about genesis made me laugh when I first started to read it mainly because hanni's list is incorrect. For general purposes, I'm going to take out the parts that are same for both.and now I will add the rest

Genesis:

Pros:

-Can be hardcast (in-colour fatty)
-Immune to Pithing Needle

Cons:

- You can only use during upkeep.
- It forces you build the deck to have discard outlits to put it in there which forces bad cards in the deck, and leaves many powerful cards out of your list.
- It can not be brought back with life from the loam.
- Doesn't produce mana at all, and is really only good if you have another card to put it in the graveyard.
- Its a dead card in your hand for the first 5 turns.



Volrath's Stronghold:

Pros:

-Produces mana
-Not as vulnerable to temporary graveyard hate
- Has synergy with counterbalance.(awsome trick that surprises anyone who thinks they got around counterbalance)
- Can be used any time it wants.
Cons:

-Vulnerable to mana-hate (Blood Moon effects, Wasteland, Back to Basics, etc.)
-Produces colourless mana in 4c deck
-Vulnerable to Pithing Needle


When it comes down to it, if your running loam anywaze stronghold is alot stronger card.

This is all I'm going to talk about right now, maybe i'll talk about some other things, but I feel that many of the points are very good and can really help tweek the deck out.

[spirit of the wretch]

I won the small (13 players) Karlsruhe tourney with the deck going 3/0/1. I played the list I posted on the first page of this thread (-1x Coliseum, +1x Sandbar). I faced:
Geddon Stax (2:1): I didn't mulligan properly and consequently lost the second game despite his mulligan down to four... I suck! The other games I could easily control the game via Loam and beat him down (game one with a Confi)
TempoTresh (2:0): Intuition wins!
Gobbos (2:1): Without Swords the MU is not really good preboard. It gets much better with Plagues and Blasts though =)
The Rock (ID): Teammate

You guys should really consider running Confidant. His ability to block and kill annoying Goblins and to give the deck a better aggro alternative should not be overlooked!
So far: This deck is great and I absolutly love it =)

[Adan]

I won the small (13 players) Karlsruhe tourney with the deck going 3/0/1. I played the list I posted on the first page of this thread (-1x Coliseum, +1x Sandbar). I faced:
Geddon Stax (2:1): I didn't mulligan properly and consequently lost the second game despite his mulligan down to four... I suck! The other games I could easily control the game via Loam and beat him down (game one with a Confi)
TempoTresh (2:0): Intuition wins!
Gobbos (2:1): Without Swords the MU is not really good preboard. It gets much better with Plagues and Blasts though =)
The Rock (ID): Teammate

You guys should really consider running Confidant. His ability to block and kill annoying Goblins and to give the deck a better aggro alternative should not be overlooked!
So far: This deck is great and I absolutly love it =)

Then you might as well run my UGb Threshold build...

But running dark confidant doesn't make sense to me because the average manacurve is higher than in threshold for example. Even though you have SDt, Confidant may Lightning Bolt' you too often. Accumulated Knowledge would make sense. It's synergy with Intuition is trivial.

But The Fear looks quite interesting, I think I will test it myself if i can get my hands on some Pernicious Deeds and Intuitions.