I have a few questions about the usage of cabal therapy.
-what do you name on turn 0 when the opponent hasn't played anything?
-an island or a blue fetch? (I would assume force)
-forest or non island green fetch? (I would assume tarmogoyf)
-any land that's not one of those?
Also, any other tips on playing therapy would be greatly appreciated.
Typically if I'm going to be using Therapy bllind, it'll go something like this:
Turn 0: Anything that would hinder me. If I'm playing a combo style deck, Force, Chant, Chalice, etc. If I'm playing a Thresh style build probably StP or other spot removal, Goblins (creature heavy) mass removal stuff like Deed, etc.
Island/Blue Fetch: Again, depends on my deck. If I'm packing counters, I won't immediately hit FoW. I'd rather them waste another blue card to counter something of mine, unless I'm really in a pinch. If I'm doing combo without protection available, any counters I would think hinder me (Daze, FoW, Stifle, even Counterbalance is a good call at times). There's a good chance I'm just as likely to call Brainstorm, Fact or Fiction or Standstill as I am a counterspell.
Forest/Green (non-blue) fetch: Survival, Tarmogoyf, Krosan Grip, Deed, etc. Again, pretty much wanting to hit answers, unless you can't deal with a Goyf.
Non-basics (multi-colored): This pretty much tends to lead me to believe it's either TES or Ichorid, or fast combo in general. Hit them as hard as you can. Dark Ritual, LED, Breakthrough, Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish, etc. Go for combo enablers or chain cards.
Non-basics (double colorless): This tends to suggest Stompy builds or Stax style variants. Huge number of choices here. Mostly hit equipment (Jitte, SoFI), Chalice, etc. Anything that would give you trouble if it resolves, including creatures like Pit Dragon or Sea Drake, etc.
Other lands (non green/blue duals, etc): Go with whatever you think is strongest in those colors. If it looks like a Deadguy variant, hit their discard. If it's a Mountain you're better off thinking it's gobs than burn, so hit AEther Vial or Goblin Lackey. Plains, go for StP, Wrath, Geddon, etc.
Basically, have a good idea of what is going to keep you from winning. Even hitting dead still gives you information for your next attempt, so shrug it off if you're not hitting silver bullets every time. And don't forget to memorize or jot down their cards. Very helpful for many turns down the road.
I hate Blind Cabal Therapy. I used ot play it in Affinity. First turn Therapy, followed by Ornithopter, followed by Flashback
blind therapy is really bad :(
But :
IF i know it is a ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh deck :brainstorm, ponder, force of will (at his turn 0)
after that, depending on my hand : tarmogoyf can be a choice. Why Brainstorm/Ponder? If he kept his hand, he probably have either.
ALSO : When casting a key spell, you can therapy opponent naming counterspell to make sure your spell will pass safely
Against combo : Name rituals. Never name the kill. Unless you have seen his hand.
Against goblin : Turn 0, i would name Goblin Lackey if my hand has no answer for first turn lackey. I would name otherwise Aether Vial. Mid late game. Depending on the number of land : 2 = Goblin Warchief/Matron, 3 = Ringleader, etc etc. Its hard to give precise card name. Blind Therapy are bad
Robert
A
Blindly I just usually name Tarmogoyf, ya know because basically every deck has that thing, Burning Wish if I know theyre combo, or whatever hate card they could have in hand to blow me out at the moment when playing Ichorid
You should almost never play a Cabal Therapy on your first turn, on the play, unless you know what your opponent is playing. The card becomes infinitely more effective once you at least let them play a land.
Once they do have a land in play, if it produces blue, you should generally name Brainstorm. This is not only because Brainstorm is likely the best (blue) card in the format, but because leaving a Brainstorm in your opponent's hand after resolving a Therapy greatly reduces the value of the Therapy's flashback.
Beyond that, naming Tarmogoyf is usually defensible if your opponent has access to green mana. For the most part, though, the correct call will depend on the matchup and the gamestate.
If I played Therapy on turn one, I'd probably name Counterbalance, Tarmogoyf, or some anticombo component, but I basically never play Therapy on turn one unless I need to hit one of the above.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
Basically, yeah. If you have the choice, leading off turn one with Thoughtseize or Duress is infinitely better because it sets up both Cabal Therapies (the first one and then the flashback). If I can't do that and I'm in a reckless enough mood to fire off a Therapy blindly, my default assumption is that I'm playing against some Threshold or Threshold-like deck and that I should name Counterbalance, Tarmogoyf, or Brainstorm. Naming Daze can be defensible if you're on the play and need to play something turn two unhindered (say, Tarmogoyf or maybe a Counterbalance), but generally you can assume that if they have countermagic available they're going to use it.
EDIT: Since you broke it down by lands:
Blue-producing land: Threshold or Landstill, most likely. If you know which it is, name Brainstorm or Goyf against Thresh and Standstill against Landstill.
Green-producing land: Well, if it's not a Trop, there's a couple things they can be playing: Survival of some sort, Lands! of some sort, The Rock or one of the decks similar to it, or some sort of janky shit. Tarmogoyf is probably an okay card to call, but without knowing what you're going up against it's not nearly as reliable nor as good of a play as naming Brainstorm against an Island. For example, Therapy on Goyf against Survival may get rid of a Tarmogoyf, but if you left a Survival in their hand, it's completely irrelevant, since they'll just play the Survival and go for Genesis or another Tarmogoyf.
None of the above: Well, there's not really any one thing you can name here without knowing the specific land, and even then...if they open with, say, an Ancient Tomb, they could be playing some Stompy variant (which come in blue and red, primarily - totally different cards involved for the most part) or some Stax variant (white is the only color that really matters here). If they open with some sort of multicolor land, they're most likely playing TES, but it's also possible that they're playing some sort of weird Belcher, Fetchland Tendrils, or God knows what other combo deck. If they open with a Mountain, it could be Goblins, or it could be Dragon Stompy (on a suboptimal hand). If it's in the "none of the above" category, you should never play a Cabal Therapy without having some idea of what the opponent is playing beforehand.
I'd blindly name the card that i fear the most an it's reasonably played.
Eg. I'd never name tormod's crypt if I'm playing ichorid during G1, but i'd name Mogg Fanatic or EE.
Vs a blue fetch or if I'm not playing a hand that folds to something my opponent might play I'd almost always name Brainstorm. The card is played by every blu based deck (minus Faerie Stompy), and some non-blue based ones. This means most combo decks, control decks and aggro control decks, probably 1/3 or 1/2 the format.
Raping a 1 land+brainstorm hand win games. Raping brainstorm alone helps anyway with the flashback of the cabal therapy/more cabals you'll do in some time.
I wonder anybody didn't say brainstorm (maybe I didn't catch it). It's such an obvious call IMO.
EDIT. My bad. Aggro Zombies did name it.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.DeckOriginally Posted by Tacosnape, TrialByFire, Silverdragon mix
Current Record: 1-83-2
If you know they're running Brainstorm, I would name that. If you have no idea what they're running, than whatever card has the biggest chance to wreck you (since a lot of people run Goyf, naming it isn't a bad choice). If they get to keep Brainstorm in their hand, your flashback obviously becomes worse.
If they tapped out for Ponder or Divining Top, I'd again name Brainstorm. If they didn't tap out, and they don't respond, I might consider naming Brainstorm.-an island or a blue fetch? (I would assume force)
If you honestly have no idea what they're running, whatever card is likely to do the most damage to you, and from which you can't recover.Also, any other tips on playing therapy would be greatly appreciated.
Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, Blood Moon, Survival of the Fittest, Pernicious Deed, Counterbalance, etc are all powerful cards that wreck certain decks...
I would strongly Disagree, most combo decks have X ritual effects where X is about 60%-70% of the deck and only a few Do something spells (like 12-15) in the deck getting rid of do something spells puts them in topdeck mode, where as removing ritual effects at tops buys you two turns. Removing Bwish/IT could buy between 3-5 turns.Against combo : Name rituals. Never name the kill. Unless you have seen his hand.
The safest blind shot is brainstorm. The largest number of decks in the format run the card. Your most likely to hit off of a random name brainstorm. Also it randomly hoses people needing one for land drop #2 Greenone has hit it right on the nose
I c h o r i d - my anti blue
Manaless Ichorid- At least its cheeper than standard.
We admit for the sake of the exercise that following is true:
Landstill > Fromat
Non-Basic Hate > Landstill
Basics > Non-Basic Hate
We can therefore logically conlude that
Basics > Format
I wouldn't be sure that Brainstorm sees more play than Tarmogoyf. Although I agree with ObFreely that there are very, very few situations where you want to cast Therapy with zero information. The only ones I can think of is to name FoW before going off on turn 2 with some sort of storm combo.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
The simplest way would be to do something like deck check.net and view the MVCs if you want to shoot in the dark use that list and use either those cards or cards you fear (Deed/CB/whatever)I wouldn't be sure that Brainstorm sees more play than Tarmogoyf. Although I agree with ObFreely that there are very, very few situations where you want to cast Therapy with zero information. The only ones I can think of is to name FoW before going off on turn 2 with some sort of storm combo.
I c h o r i d - my anti blue
Manaless Ichorid- At least its cheeper than standard.
We admit for the sake of the exercise that following is true:
Landstill > Fromat
Non-Basic Hate > Landstill
Basics > Non-Basic Hate
We can therefore logically conlude that
Basics > Format
I love playing blind therapies, for some reason I have unnaturally high percentages of hit. I think that goyf and FoW are easily the most used targets.
You always have to consider your own hand. For example, if you have means to block goyf (let's say own goyf), and you guess your opponent is playing Dark Confidant and goyf (he played Bayou) AND you have no means in hand to kill it, it's better to name Confidant than goyf. If you're playing someone who started with blue fetchland, it's good to name Brainstorm, but ... if the fetchland is still unused, there's high probability that he don't have it - he could have used it to protect most important cards of his hand. Also, in the case that I have some way to solidly screw opponents gameplan (lets say I'm playing combo and have a Xantid Swarm in hand or something similar) it's better to name Force of Will, to force your solution/threat through.
Also you have to have large contingent of fellow teammembers who are gathering data about who plays what, and use them to your advantage, scouting is the best way how to ensure therapy effectiveness at smaller tournaments (up to 30 players).
back on topic - if my opponent has not played any card yet, I would guess a FoW or goyf.
if he played green land, I would name goyf.
if he played City of Traitors / Ancient Tomb, I would assume he plays some kind of fast mana artifact deck, and i would try Smokestack / Crucible / Trinisphere - whichever of them is most dangerous to my deck (Chalice and Spheres of Resistance are probably out of question, as he already has 2 mana in play and didn't play it).
mountain - guess it's burn, naming fireblast. he will probably bolt you in response, thus cementing this decision.(goblins would have already played a card during their turn)
Wasteland - goyf
artifact land - ravager / plating.
what other lands are there to open the game with? :)
Please, berofe you start pointing fingers at me, you always have to consider that we are playing in the different metagames. For example, I have yet to meet deck (in real life) that plays Brainstorm and doesn't play FoW. It just doesn't happen in here :) ... also, some decks are not present here at all, thus I don't have to consider some cards at all. (Deaths&Taxes, Red Death etc)
Last edited by Spare Parts; 05-29-2008 at 07:46 PM.
Naming Brainstorm is a tricky thing as many or maybe even most players are going to BS in response to Therapy (before you name the card) so naming BS is going to whiff a lot.
I also almost try to hold off Therapy until I have a sac outlet out so as to limit the opponents options (like if you Therapy and see a 3-of, they are going to scramble to get rid of or play some). Also, when i do play a blind therapy I tend to name 2cc bombs like SoTF, CB, and Standstill (Blood Moon counts here as it hits turn 2 in Dragon Stompy) as those are the cards I will most likely not get a chance to Therapy on a flashback (unlike say, Moat, Humility, or Enforcer).
I've never seen him so upset....or ever before.
If the player casts BS in response, they are either hiding something they seriously need, or are a bad player. Generally, Therapy will be cast before a bigger spell, so they'll be naming some sort of hate card, whether that be FoW or whatever. That means they can keep Brainstorm in hand because they won't name it first, and when you keep it in hand, it negates the Flashback. Given the Flashback of Therapy is more crucial than the initial hit, going for Brainstorm first is almost always the right call.Naming Brainstorm is a tricky thing as many or maybe even most players are going to BS in response to Therapy (before you name the card) so naming BS is going to whiff a lot.
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Originally Posted by Slay
Good point, I guess it depends on what you're holding. Not playing brainstorming in response to the first Therapy does open the door to the nightmare scenario of them naming Brainstorm with their first Therapy and flashing back for your best card as opposed to brainstorming in response to the first therapy, maybe losing a card then, and definitely losing a card on the second Therapy, but guaranteeing that it's not one of your two best cards (that you hid with BS).
I guess I've been playing BS recently almost exclusively with Moat, and I hide that motherfucker like Anne Frank.
I've never seen him so upset....or ever before.
I name Lion's Eye Diamond a lot of the time when I'm going blind and know the flashback is going to be a couple of turns down the road. That's just to avoid the black mana source, dark ritual, Lion's Eye Diamond, Infernal Tutor for the loss that seems to be popping up fairly often these days. If I was playing counters I'd do things differently, but TES, Iggy Pop and FT just walk all over a counterless deck these days.
thanks guys, this thread has been a big help. For referance, I've been using therapy in the rock. Also I think I was playing it wrong, I was playing it as disruption, not protection, most of the time.
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