Counter-Top strategy

[fredk]

Just wanted to say as somebody who was away from the game for a long time and just picked up VoroshStill to start playing legacy, that this thread has been extremely helpful. Keep up the good work.

[Kuma]

As a player who hasn't had much experience playing with Counterbalance, I have a few questions.

I now understand what to do with Ponder, but what do you do with Brainstorm? Suppose we had this hand: Top/Brainstorm/FoW/Confidant/Daze/Fetch/Blue land. Would you still lead with Brainstorm here assuming drawing a blue card was probable?

What about "Top, Blue Land, Brainstorm, any 4 other cards,"? Is it sometimes better to wait until turn two to play Brainstorm if you have a fetchland in order to shuffle away two cards instead of one?

In general, how good is Counterbalance vs. Goblins? I'm going to guess not very good since they don't have a lot of two costers and they can dodge it with Aether Vial.

[Nihil Credo]

I now understand what to do with Ponder, but what do you do with Brainstorm? Suppose we had this hand: Top/Brainstorm/FoW/Confidant/Daze/Fetch/Blue land. Would you still lead with Brainstorm here assuming drawing a blue card was probable? What about "Top, Blue Land, Brainstorm, any 4 other cards,"?

No, here you lead with Top and save up Brainstorm for the insane combo with fetchland, and secondarily for FoW use. Example:

Turn 1 Island, Top
Turn 2 draw (no looking). If it's another land, I'd use it right now to cast Confidant with double counter backup (assuming this or the t1 Island can make black mana), and next turn I go for Brainstorm into fetchland. If it's a spell I don't need to cast this turn, I play the fetch and at EOT Brainstorm, fetch, and look with Top (delay fetching as needed if you want to draw even the cards you put back, you lucksack).

In general, how good is Counterbalance vs. Goblins? I'm going to guess not very good since they don't have a lot of two costers and they can dodge it with Aether Vial.

You are correct. The game state does occasionally assemble to make Counterbalance useful, but it's much more often sacrificed to Brainstorm and FoW.

[Deep6er]

Yes, but that's overlooking the fact that Counterbalance stops the prime destroyer of Tarmogoyf's in that matchup, which is Warren Weirding. Plus, other decks run things at three which can maximize Counterbalance's effectiveness in that matchup by stopping the extremely important Goblin Warchief and the also important Goblin Matron.

Every deck in the format is hurt by Counterbalance, some not so much, others are crippled. It's not a question of does it hurt, it's a question of how much.

[Tosh]

One trick that I've found through extensive Counter-Top play is that if you're expecting a Krosan Grip from a mediocre player they may be tempted to grip after you top at the end of their turn so, if you've got the mana, keep your 3 cost on top at the end of their turn then re-top during your upkeep. I think I've countered more than 4 KGrips and 2 Extirpates doing this. Better players will bait the CB, then KGrip after revealing for the bait card so it won't work as well on them.

[Nihil Credo]

Yes, but that's overlooking the fact that Counterbalance stops the prime destroyer of Tarmogoyf's in that matchup, which is Warren Weirding. Plus, other decks run things at three which can maximize Counterbalance's effectiveness in that matchup by stopping the extremely important Goblin Warchief and the also important Goblin Matron.

Correct, but still, if my opening hand is: FoW, Cbalance, Ponder, dual, fetch, Goyf, Top, I think I'd still pitch Cbalance to a turn 1 Mountain->Aether Vial. Counterbalance isn't dead against Goblins, it's just mediocre.

That's assuming I can't counter stuff at cc3-4 with any reliability, like most CounterTop decks do. As you said, if you are running It's The Fear or VoroshStill or whatever, then of course CBalance rises in value.