Page 2 of 9 FirstFirst 123456 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 173

Thread: [Re: DTBs] WTF?

  1. #21

    Re: [Re: DTBs] WTF?

    right but then ir shoudl be American ONLY not a combination of both...

  2. #22
    Member

    Join Date

    Mar 2007
    Location

    United Kingdom
    Posts

    149

    Re: [Re: DTBs] WTF?

    I don't think people are complaining about the lack of european inclusion (we all know we have a different meta).
    Just that it does look crazy to analyse all the euro tournies (Which lets face it is most of them) and then not include something because it hasn't been piloted to success in states.
    Cait if I were to be honest I think the pinnacle of Legacy resides very safely in Germany.
    Unfortunately mst Major tournaments are held in USA, and with the terrible prize support it's just not worth the effort for europeans to go.
    I think Barook made a very useful point, If a deck took 5 T8's in Europe but only 1 in states it would qualify at a DTB but may not be that relevant to USA .
    Using the european data makes sense as we hold 50+participant tournaments on a weekly basis, where as the USA struggles to field 1 a month.
    Maybe the metas differ because Europeans just play a lot more tournament level legacy, so it's evolved faster ?
    Looking at our data allows you to see where things are headed.
    Ofc it doesn't really matter to me as I only pay attention to the European performances with marginal interest in USA t8's unless it was a huge event.
    I just found it odd from a statistical point of view.

  3. #23

    Re: [Re: DTBs] WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely View Post
    So far, none of the concerns brought up in this thread even attempt to transcend the realms of subjective reasoning and/or local metagame distortion, so they offer little meaningful criticism of the LMF or its contents.
    You're right, I'm not being objective. I'm also not trying to be, at least not totally. I'm not criticizing the fact that Goblins isn't in there, I'm criticizing the system because Goblins should be there.

    The prior DTB system was flawed in that it was almost entirely subjective. What I"m saying is the current system is flawed in that it's entirely objective. A better system, like most things, lies somewhere in the middle. I like the idea of objectivity, it's good to remove bias from the equation. However, when a situation arises where there is a deck that will be played more than any other at a large event, and that deck has an even at worst match up against the majority of the field, and it's not included in a forum that says "hey, these are the decks you're going to have to be able to beat at a large event," then I think it's reasonable to say, "you know what? Maybe the system is mistaken right here. Let's step in and fix this."

    This isn't 10 land stompy we're talking about. This is Goblins. You can't ignore it by saying "well, my deck is fundamentally better, so I'll just win." Are you suddenly going to start playing a deck that doesn't have an answer to Mountain, Lackey, go? No (but please, please do). If your deck can't beat Goblins, you're going to scrub out of a large event. It just astounds me that a deck that has an even to favorable match up against 85% of the decks posted in the DTB forum isn't itself a DTB.


    Quote Originally Posted by URABAHN View Post
    Attention lonelybaritone and TeenieBopper!

    Goblins is still a good deck.
    I know. That's my point.

    I know it sounds like I'm just blindly defending a pet deck, but if Enchantress, or TES, or Belcher (PS- Belcher should be there. The data supports it) were all played as much as Goblins but hadn't made a T8, I'd be saying they should be in the DTB forum too. Which brings me to another point

    re: Including non-US data but then excluding decks that haven't seen that success in the US. How in the fuck is that not subjective?

    Maybe the metas differ because Europeans just play a lot more tournament level legacy, so it's evolved faster ?
    It's a size thing. Europe has 300 million people, but only takes like 20 minutes to drive across the entire continent. I guarantee that if the Virginians could hop on a 10 minute train ride to NY (and vice versa) every month, we'd have just as many, if not more large events.
    SOURCE ASSHOLE
    Now Epic-ly Sexy
    My blog

    Buy the ticket, take the ride.

  4. #24
    Permanent Waves
    AnwarA101's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2004
    Posts

    1,858

    Re: [Re: DTBs] WTF?

    I have to agree that it is confusing the way that non-American data is being used for the LMF especially since we are now getting data from Japan as well. It seems weird to use the non-American data only to confirm the results made in America. Threshold is helped by the numbers it puts up Europe and Japan, but CRET Belcher is penalized because it didn't make T8 at one of the 2 American tournaments of the last 6 tournaments overall. Its possible a cycle could even happen without an American tournament which essentially would obliterate this system of relying on American data.

    But good luck changing it, the powers that be are in charge of that.

  5. #25

    Re: [Re: DTBs] WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by TeenieBopper View Post
    You're right, I'm not being objective. I'm also not trying to be, at least not totally. I'm not criticizing the fact that Goblins isn't in there, I'm criticizing the system because Goblins should be there.

    The prior DTB system was flawed in that it was almost entirely subjective. What I"m saying is the current system is flawed in that it's entirely objective. A better system, like most things, lies somewhere in the middle. I like the idea of objectivity, it's good to remove bias from the equation. However, when a situation arises where there is a deck that will be played more than any other at a large event, and that deck has an even at worst match up against the majority of the field, and it's not included in a forum that says "hey, these are the decks you're going to have to be able to beat at a large event," then I think it's reasonable to say, "you know what? Maybe the system is mistaken right here. Let's step in and fix this."

    This isn't 10 land stompy we're talking about. This is Goblins. You can't ignore it by saying "well, my deck is fundamentally better, so I'll just win." If your deck can't beat Goblins, you're going to scrub out of a large event. It just astounds me that a deck that has an even to favorable match up against 85% of the decks posted in the DTB forum isn't itself a DTB.
    I believe you are overstating the popularity of Goblins in the current metagame by a large amount.
    In the last several large tournaments the popularity of Goblins is minimal (3 out 51 decks in VA and about that percentage at Eli's last tournament)

    So why should I prepare for a deck that isn't making top 8s and isn't showing up in large numbers?

  6. #26
    Member

    Join Date

    Mar 2007
    Location

    United Kingdom
    Posts

    149

    Re: [Re: DTBs] WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by TeenieBopper View Post
    It's a size thing. Europe has 300 million people, but only takes like 20 minutes to drive across the entire continent. I guarantee that if the Virginians could hop on a 10 minute train ride to NY (and vice versa) every month, we'd have just as many, if not more large events.
    That's the most ridiculous thing I have heard.
    Europe is Huge, no wonder people question Americans Geography skills :s
    It takes me more than 20 mins to drive across town , the UK may be small but Europe is quite sizeable.
    Plus Virginians wouldn't have a language barrier to cross going to new york, Europeans do.
    The German tournaments are mainly german players, there are just more players that care about Legacy.

    Yes Anwar I was wondering what would happen if a cycle like that occured.

  7. #27

    Re: [Re: DTBs] WTF?

    Hyperbole ftl, I guess.

    I was being mostly sarcastic, but there is truth in the fact that western europe has roughly 2/3 the population fit into 1/4 the area. Simply speaking, more people live closer together. Your mass/public transportation system are highly advanced, making long distance travel much easier than the united states. I've been to Europe. You can hop on a train in France and go to the tourney in Germany for like 20 euros (not really, but travel expenses are much, much cheaper than driving from Virginia to NY) and be there in like 5 hours.

    I understand the language barrier, but you guys have had two millenia to work that out. I'd say you've got it down pretty solid.

    EDIT: okay, German tourneys are mostly german players. that's fine. However, even then, my argument of population density and ease of travel still hold true.
    SOURCE ASSHOLE
    Now Epic-ly Sexy
    My blog

    Buy the ticket, take the ride.

  8. #28
    Member
    Machinus's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2005
    Location

    Knoxville, TN
    Posts

    1,538

    Re: [Re: DTBs] WTF?

    We should use German tournament data. We should use Japanese data. We should use all non-US data.

    We should use them all on equal grounds. Excluding Belcher from the DTB because it is only doing well in Europe is retarded. That forum is not going to have much credibility without European data.

    Attn. Legacy Format: can we stop pretending Europe isn't there now? Their designers are at least as good as ours and this self-imposed ignorance of their work is very stupid. Their tournaments are bigger than ours and more regular and we're basically burying our heads in the sand by treating the results differently.

  9. #29

    Re: [Re: DTBs] WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Machinus View Post
    We should use German tournament data. We should use Japanese data. We should use all non-US data.

    We should use them all on equal grounds. Excluding Belcher from the DTB because it is only doing well in Europe is retarded. That forum is not going to have much credibility without European data.

    Attn. Legacy Format: can we stop pretending Europe isn't there now? Their designers are at least as good as ours and this self-imposed ignorance of their work is very stupid. Their tournaments are bigger than ours and more regular and we're basically burying our heads in the sand by treating the results differently.
    Or change titles.

    DTB could be decks that perform well in both metagames, ADTB could be American DTB's and EDTB could be European. This lets any new meta come in, and keeps the old system pretty well intact.

  10. #30

    Re: [Re: DTBs] WTF?

    That's stupid. A DTB should be a DTB. Look at the top 8 thread. The American metagame isn't all that different from the European one. Ours is heavily dominated by landstill/thresh. Guess what, those decks were in the European/Japanese top 8's too. Pilots of CRET Belcher in Germany have to deal with the same shit as CRET Belcher pilots would in the US.

    The reason CRET Belcher isn't in American top 8s is because Americans have an irrational fear of any deck that isn't blue based (aggro/)control. $20 says competent CRET Belcher players would do just fine over here, if they existed. The lack of appearences of the deck in America isn't a flaw of the deck, it's a flaw of the players.
    SOURCE ASSHOLE
    Now Epic-ly Sexy
    My blog

    Buy the ticket, take the ride.

  11. #31
    Banned

    Join Date

    Oct 2006
    Location

    NoVA
    Posts

    918

    Re: [Re: DTBs] WTF?

    I think the DTB system is very flawed if it yields ALUREN (WTF???) as a DTB, but not Goblins. CRET Belcher and Ichorid are closer to DTBs than Aluren I mean come ON...

  12. #32

    Re: [Re: DTBs] WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinious View Post
    I think the DTB system is very flawed if it yields ALUREN (WTF???) as a DTB, but not Goblins. CRET Belcher and Ichorid are closer to DTBs than Aluren I mean come ON...
    This? This is bad subjective. If a deck's putting up the 'W', it should be included.
    SOURCE ASSHOLE
    Now Epic-ly Sexy
    My blog

    Buy the ticket, take the ride.

  13. #33
    Administrator
    Zilla's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2003
    Location

    Portland, OR
    Posts

    5,532

    Re: [Re: DTBs] WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by Machinus View Post
    can we stop pretending Europe isn't there now?
    We never had. Non-American tournies have always been factored into the LMF selections. However, the vast majority of consituent members of this site are American. The LMF exists to provide our members with useful information when preparing for a competitive tournament. If a deck is dominating the German meta and isn't played at all in America, how is it not misleading to suggest to an American player that the German deck should be prepared for? Requiring that a deck which performs well outside of the States make just one placement here in order to be considered a DtB amongst American players doesn't seem too far-fetched.

  14. #34
    Banned

    Join Date

    Oct 2006
    Location

    NoVA
    Posts

    918

    Re: [Re: DTBs] WTF?

    Oh yeah 2 top8s is really putting up the 'W'... The fact of the matter is that Aluren is not DTB in that people dont consider Aluren while making their deck because it is 1) Not played, and 2) Not really a threat when played. People SB 'Clasm/EPlague for Goblins, Chalice/EE for CRET, and Crypt/Leyline for Ichorid. People build their decks with these decks in mind (along with Thresh, Breakfast, etc) because people worry about being able to beat them, AKA they are DECKS TO BEAT. Not obscure-deck-revolving-around 4CC-enchantment-that-no-one worries-about (and rightfully so). When was the last time you heard ANYONE worry about or discuss their decks 'Aluren' matchup? It almost never happens, I gaurantee.

    This is partially subjective, but I dont think thats a bad thing. It is also objective in that people actually, you know, worry about Goblins, CRET and Ichorid, as hsown by deck construction and SB choices, while they either laugh at Aluren or dont even know it exists.

  15. #35
    Member
    Machinus's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2005
    Location

    Knoxville, TN
    Posts

    1,538

    Re: [Re: DTBs] WTF?

    Quote Originally Posted by GodzillA View Post
    We never had. Non-American tournies have always been factored into the LMF selections. However, the vast majority of consituent members of this site are American. The LMF exists to provide our members with useful information when preparing for a competitive tournament. If a deck is dominating the German meta and isn't played at all in America, how is it not misleading to suggest to an American player that the German deck should be prepared for? Requiring that a deck which performs well outside of the States make just one placement here in order to be considered a DtB amongst American players doesn't seem too far-fetched.
    It's dishonest if the site isn't subtitled "your source for American Legacy." Either we care about Legacy overall, or we just care about our own country.

    I think we should give up that attitude and start caring about the decks Europeans are playing. It is a senseless excuse to say that some very popular deck in Germany could have no effect on tournaments before. Have you ever been to a real American Legacy tournament? They are random beyond metagaming and anyone who prepares for the general format at their local store doesn't know what they are doing. I think it's time we gave up this self-limiting practice and just accepted worldwide innovations.

  16. #36
    ?
    Di's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2003
    Location

    Syracuse, NY
    Posts

    5,766

    Re: [Re: DTBs] WTF?

    Oh yeah 2 top8s is really putting up the 'W'... The fact of the matter is that Aluren is not DTB in that people dont consider Aluren while making their deck because it is 1) Not played, and 2) Not really a threat when played. People SB 'Clasm/EPlague for Goblins, Chalice/EE for CRET, and Crypt/Leyline for Ichorid. People build their decks with these decks in mind (along with Thresh, Breakfast, etc) because people worry about being able to beat them, AKA they are DECKS TO BEAT. Not obscure-deck-revolving-around 4CC-enchantment-that-no-one worries-about (and rightfully so). When was the last time you heard ANYONE worry about or discuss their decks 'Aluren' matchup? It almost never happens, I gaurantee.
    Aluren isn't labeled as a DTB, it is a DTW. There is a great difference between DTB and DTW. I suggest you read over the LMF guidelines once more so you can get an idea on what exactly you are talking about.
    Last edited by Di; 10-06-2007 at 01:24 AM.

  17. #37
    Banned

    Join Date

    Oct 2006
    Location

    NoVA
    Posts

    918

    Re: [Re: DTBs] WTF?

    This is true, but despite the DTW status, it is in the "Decks to Beat" section, implying it is a deck to beat. Aside from the fact the DTB forums name apparently doesnt hold true for all threads inside it (at the monent the only DTB is Thresh apparently...), not everyone (read: very few people) accept DTB/DTW/ATW as meaningful labels for decks, from what I can tell. My point isnt over meaningless labels arbitrarily created by the mods which have no meaning to most of the members, it is about Aluren, which is by no means a deck to beat, being in the "Decks to Beat" forum. At the very least, if Aluren is magically now a deck to beat, Goblins, and probably CRET Belcher/Ichorid deserve this status as well, as they are decks which people actually aim to beat, and are just better overall even despite Aluren's apparent 2 top8s.

  18. #38
    EPIC awesomeness
    bigbear102's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2004
    Location

    Baldwinsville/Oswego, NY
    Posts

    962

    Re: [Re: DTBs] WTF?

    How is it 'magically a deck to beat'???? Aluren IS putting up the numbers. If you READ THE RULES of the LMF then you will understand.

    Aluren has met the specified requirements to become a DTW. It's that simple. Goblins has not met the requirements.

    If you want the system to be changed, then say how. Don't just argue that Aluren doesn't belong, because under the current rules it does belong.

    I do believe that there could be a better method of choosing DTB's and DTW's. Looking at what everyone is playing would be best. Knowing what percentage of the field is playing what deck. That way if goblins doesn't make top 8, but 20% of the field was playing it, people will know they have to prepare to do well. Now the problem is getting deck lists for every tourney entry...
    EPIC Syndicate

    Quote Originally Posted by nitewolf9 View Post
    I personally like spell snare against 2 cc spells, but it really isn't good against spells that aren't 2 cc. With engineered explosives, it is a good card to have against non-land permanents with converted mana cost equal to what you set the explosives to, but it doesn't hit those that have differing cc. Plus, engineered explosives has sunburst.
    -My hero

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Agent View Post
    For some odd reason, I find shackles to be superb against creature oriented decks. Of course, the logic behind it is the sooner you can play and activate shackles the better. Although, shackles definitely has it's late game uses as well. It basically counts as a threat and a removal spell simultaneously which is relevant against "not quite shroud" creatures. Also, you should really be running a playset of engineered plagues against merfolks. They can dismantle tribal decks so run more of them.
    -I don't think this one was a joke...

  19. #39
    Banned

    Join Date

    Oct 2006
    Location

    NoVA
    Posts

    918

    Re: [Re: DTBs] WTF?

    I understand that under the rules its a DTW, but I strongly believe that any system that puts Aluren in the DTB forum and not Goblins/CRET/Ichorid is extremely flawed. Rather than complain more, I'll say how I think the system should be changed. Actually put decks that shape the metagame (decks to beat) in the deck to beat forum, dont base what goes in there purely based on top8s of the last few tournies, especially since some of those were in Europe or other places where apparently Aluren (LOL) can make a top8...In my opinion the DTBs are Thresh, Breakfast, Landstill, Goblins, and possibly CRET/Ichorid/43Land. Basically, I'm saying the system should be part subjective and part objective, and more common sense should be used to keep Aluren and the like out of the DTB and Goblins and the like in the DTB, no matter if Aluren barely earned the right or Goblins barely lost the right under some arbitrarily set up system.

  20. #40
    Faerie Godfather

    Join Date

    Jul 2005
    Location

    Finland
    Posts

    1,617

    Re: [Re: DTBs] WTF?

    In other words, you're intent on arguing with the results. Unfortunately, and I'll say this of experience, that's one argument you aren't going to win. Basically, what better criteria is there for avoiding personal bias and for providing objective data than using a system with no human factor involved? Isn't the point to tell people what's good and what's winning on the field? That's what they should prepare for too. The system isn't perfect, of course, but the results aren't going to change by saying: "This isn't what I want DTB to look like!"

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)