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Thread: Forgetting to pay Cumaltive Upkeep?

  1. #1
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    darkalucard's Avatar
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    Forgetting to pay Cumaltive Upkeep?

    Cumulative upkeep {1} (At the beginning of your upkeep, put an age counter on this permanent, then sacrifice it unless you pay its upkeep cost for each age counter on it.)
    So if I go straight to my draw, obviously unintentionally forgetting. And since putting an age counter on the permanent isn't optional then we must go back to the upkeep put the counter on and then I can decide to pay the cost and have my card live?

    Basically if I forget and draw a card:
    a. My card is sacrificed. (oops)
    b. I can go back and pay it. (If this is the case then how would I explain this to a judge who doesn't understand if a depute comes up.)

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    Re: Forgetting to pay Cumaltive Upkeep?

    darkalucard: Interesting point, I'll follow this thread.

    In the same idea, let's say I have 2 aether vial in play. And I go straight to the draw step (forgetting the upkeeps). But, ordering the triggered effect I have at the beginning of my upkeep should be mandatory, shouldn't it? Shouldn't I come back to the moment I put on stack my triggered effects?
    Last edited by cdr; 11-02-2008 at 01:34 PM. Reason: reference to deleted post removed

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    Re: Forgetting to pay Cumaltive Upkeep?

    What strikes me in my example is that I have 2 upkeep effects and that these effects have never been to stack, since I have never put them on stack. I'll take another example to make my question more understandable.

    There is a tabernacle in play and I have Absolver Thrull in play and another creature (let's say that there is no other creature). I forget to pay my upkeeps. Here the order of the stack matters, because if I sac first the Absolver Thrull, I'll have to destroy target enchantment when the second creature will go to graveyard and if I sac first the other creature, the haunt trigger will fizzle, meaning no destroying enchantment effect.

  4. #4

    Re: Forgetting to pay Cumaltive Upkeep?

    There was a lot of confusion in this thread. Please only post an answer if you're sure of the answer, and post the appropriate rule to back your answer up.

    We are talking about Missed Triggers, which comes from section 123 of the Penalty Guidelines. Here are a couple of nice articles for you:

    http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...icle/20080416a
    http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...icle/20070316a (about halfway through)

    123. Game Play Error — Missed Trigger

    Penalty
    Code:
    Regular  Competitive  Professional 
    Caution  Warning      Warning
    If the trigger instruction is optional (“may”) and specifies no consequence for not doing it, assume that the player has chosen not to perform the instruction and issue no penalty.

    If the trigger requires no choices to be made and has no effect on the visual representation of the game, assume the ability resolved at the appropriate time and issue no penalty. The visual representation consists of elements the players are able to see happening or in play, such as zone changes and adding counters to permanents, as well as life totals.

    If the trigger has an instruction that specifies a default action associated with a choice (usually "If you don't ... ") resolve the default action immediately without regard to the timing rules for that particular game. For example, in Magic, such a default action would be resolved without using the stack. If there are unresolved spells or effects that are no longer legal as a result of this action, rewind the game to remove all such spells or abilities. Resulting triggers generated by the action still trigger and resolve as normal.

    If the trigger requires a choice that does not have a default action or a trigger with no choice will have an effect on the visual representation of the game, and the error is caught within the scope of a turn cycle (see below for definition), resolve the forgotten ability using game-specific timing rules. For example, in a Magic game, the forgotten ability would be placed on the stack. The player may not make choices involving objects that were not in the zone or zones referenced by the trigger when the ability triggered. If the error is discovered partway through an action (such as choosing blockers in Magic), back up to the beginning of that action. If the error is discovered after a turn cycle, continue the game without resolving the forgotten trigger.

    For Magic, a turn cycle is defined as the time from the beginning of a player's step or phase to the end of that player's next same step or phase. For Dreamblade, it is defined as a single phase. If a turn cycle would end in a skipped step or phase (but not turn), the turn cycle expires when the step or phase is skipped.
    The first thing to note is that you never "go back".

    Cumulative upkeep ("At the beginning of your upkeep, put an age counter on this permanent. Then you may pay [cost] for each age counter on it. If you don't, sacrifice it.") has "a default action associated with a choice", the third section in the Missed Trigger remedies. The default action is resolved immediately, without using the stack, as soon as the missed trigger is noticed. You receive a warning at competitive and above.

    AEther Vial ("At the beginning of your upkeep, you may put a charge counter on AEther Vial.") has a "may", the first section in the Missed Trigger remedies. If you don't explicitly resolve the trigger, it is assumed you chose not to use the ability and no penalty is issued.

    Tabernacle ("At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice this creature unless you pay 1.") has again "a default action associated with a choice", so again the default action is resolved immediately.

    In Maveric78f's situation, both creatures would be sacrificed immediately without using the stack, and then Absolver's Haunt would trigger.
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
    -David DeLaney

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    Re: Forgetting to pay Cumaltive Upkeep?

    Cumulative upkeep ("At the beginning of your upkeep, put an age counter on this permanent. Then you may pay [cost] for each age counter on it. If you don't, sacrifice it.") has "a default action associated with a choice", the third section in the Missed Trigger remedies. The default action is resolved immediately, without using the stack, as soon as the missed trigger is noticed. You receive a warning at competitive and above.
    This is a little unclear. To clarify: if you miss a cumulative upkeep trigger, is an age counter added before you sacrifice the permanent?
    When in doubt, mumble.

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  6. #6

    Re: Forgetting to pay Cumaltive Upkeep?

    Yes.
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  7. #7

    Re: Forgetting to pay Cumaltive Upkeep?

    I think I was pretty clear as far as the result, but the PG itself is not clear as far as what "resolve the default action immediately" means.

    You do resolve the entire trigger, just with the default choice. Anything that happens as part of the trigger outside the default choice (like adding an Age counter for Cumulative Upkeep) happens.

    This is covered explicitly in Toby Elliott's article, the second one linked above.
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
    -David DeLaney

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    Re: Forgetting to pay Cumaltive Upkeep?

    @ CDR
    I was confused because Adam White (Playing UGb Threshold) told me that at the 5 Year Source Tournament that he forgot to pay for Mind Harness and a Judge was called. The ruling ended up being that he kept the card and maintained control of his opponents creature.

    Obviously the Judge he called was not you Chuck, thanks for clearing the ruling up.

    Side-Note Thoughts: Also this is why I should use the gatherer more often because cumulative upkeep on magiccards.info does not have "you may pay the cost" making it obvious that you must put an age counter on but the cost was optional. Even though it's more because the way the rules are for this type of effect forgetting to pay would force you to use the default option for the upkeep. Anyways...

  9. #9

    Re: Forgetting to pay Cumaltive Upkeep?

    No, I would have definitely remembered if it was me because Mind Harness is one of my favorite cards.

    Everyone makes mistakes though, especially on things like the more complex parts of the PG.

    I don't think I've ever not blown a call at a GP/PT.
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
    -David DeLaney

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    Re: Forgetting to pay Cumaltive Upkeep?

    Mmh, very funny. As a consequence, if I have 2 absolver thrulls and a tabernacle effect. If I can't pay, I'll have to destroy an enchantment, but if I forget to pay the upkeeps, both haunt triggers will fizzle (assuming there is no other creature into play). And I won't even get a warning since there is a default action.

    Cheating can help!

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    Re: Forgetting to pay Cumaltive Upkeep?

    I may be reading that wrong, but it seems to me that only for optional or "invisible" triggers is no penalty applied.

    For the other situations, including the one where you apply a default action, there aren't any explicit penalty instructions so I believe you will apply the default ones (ie Warning at Competitive/Professional).
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  12. #12

    Re: Forgetting to pay Cumaltive Upkeep?

    Yes, there is a Penalty here. The only time Penalties aren't given is in the case of optional with no consequences for not doing it, or no effect on the visual representation of the game; in these cases it's assumed the default action was taken/the trigger resolved.

    And as always, Cheating will be punishable by DQ. Honestly, can people stop suggesting Cheating as a way to get around something in the rules they don't like?
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    Quote Originally Posted by frogboy View Post
    Battle with a ragtag crew of adorable misfits. Narcomoeba and Golgari Thug hook up before the end of the movie.
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    Please be less rambling in your next post. I only bothered with figuring out what the fuck you were trying to ask because I took it as a challenge.

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    Re: Forgetting to pay Cumaltive Upkeep?

    First, it's not a rule I don't like, but if I'd like to know if I have an option in a given game state.
    Second, I used the word cheating, I admit. But, what is its definition?
    Third, if people cheat with no penalty, it's not the fault of cheaters, but the fault of rules.
    Fourth, read your signature once more, and ask yourself the difference between cheating and breaking a security system.

  14. #14

    Re: Forgetting to pay Cumaltive Upkeep?

    From the Penalty Guidelines:
    150. CHEATING: This section deals with some intentionally committed infractions that can give a player a significant advantage. / At Regular REL only, the Head Judge may downgrade the penalty for a Cheating infraction to a Match Loss if he or she believes that the player committing the infraction was not aware that what he or she was doing was illegal.
    152. Cheating -- Fraud: A person intentionally violates the Player Communication Policy or intentionally misrepresents procedures, personal information, or any other relevant tournament information in an attempt to gain advantage. Note that Fraud, like most cheating, is determined by an investigation and will often appear on the surface as a Game Play Error or Tournament Error.
    If you cheat while playing Magic and get caught (and it sounds like you might, so I hope judges watch you like a hawk), you will get Disqualified. There will be an investigation and you might never play Magic again, or at least not for several years.

    Edit: and Warnings are tracked, so if you tend to "forget" triggers a lot when it might help you, there may be an investigation. A high level pro got banned for 6 months for something similar.

    Seriously though, can we all agree to stop making posts advocating or suggesting intentionally breaking the rules?
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    Quote Originally Posted by frogboy View Post
    Battle with a ragtag crew of adorable misfits. Narcomoeba and Golgari Thug hook up before the end of the movie.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil Credo View Post
    Please be less rambling in your next post. I only bothered with figuring out what the fuck you were trying to ask because I took it as a challenge.

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    Re: Forgetting to pay Cumaltive Upkeep?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anusien View Post
    Seriously though, can we all agree to stop making posts advocating or suggesting intentionally breaking the rules?
    I believe it's fine if people point out when they think they see a problem with the rules system. I don't think such posts will lead anyone to try a trick who otherwise wouldn't, and it's a far cry from "How to Vampiric Tutor while shuffling" threads.
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  16. #16

    Re: Forgetting to pay Cumaltive Upkeep?

    No, cheating is not acceptable. You will get caught - maybe not the first time, but if you're the type of person who is willing to cheat, you will do it again and sooner rather than later it will catch up to you.

    In case it was not blindingly clear to you: yes, intentionally "forgetting" triggers is cheating.

    There is no problem in the rules here. There will always be things a cheater could take advantage of, and this isn't one that's even ever going to occur.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maveric78f View Post
    Mmh, very funny. As a consequence, if I have 2 absolver thrulls and a tabernacle effect. If I can't pay, I'll have to destroy an enchantment, but if I forget to pay the upkeeps, both haunt triggers will fizzle (assuming there is no other creature into play). And I won't even get a warning since there is a default action.

    Cheating can help!
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
    -David DeLaney

  17. #17

    Re: Forgetting to pay Cumaltive Upkeep?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil Credo View Post
    I believe it's fine if people point out when they think they see a problem with the rules system. I don't think such posts will lead anyone to try a trick who otherwise wouldn't, and it's a far cry from "How to Vampiric Tutor while shuffling" threads.
    Yes, there are certain ways for people to cheat. For the most part, they're known. The people who write the rules and penalties take into account the potential for abuse, but it's not the only concern. This is in part because we have other methods (the banhammer) for cheaters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by frogboy View Post
    Battle with a ragtag crew of adorable misfits. Narcomoeba and Golgari Thug hook up before the end of the movie.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil Credo View Post
    Please be less rambling in your next post. I only bothered with figuring out what the fuck you were trying to ask because I took it as a challenge.

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    Re: Forgetting to pay Cumaltive Upkeep?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maveric78f View Post
    Third, if people cheat with no penalty, it's not the fault of cheaters, but the fault of rules.
    Are you claiming here that actions are only wrong if they have a penalty?
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