SCG Article - DOOM on Time Spiral!!!

[GGoober]

So here's an article spelling the overpoweredness of Time Spiral.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...In_Legacy.html

I personally don't see how the following statement makes any sense:

"The obvious reason is that drawing seven cards and untapping all your lands is unfair, especially with the tools available. The second reason is the same one that caused a ban of Sensei's Divining Top…games go too long. I watched Jesse Hatfield play against Todd Anderson in the Top 8 and observed a game go over thirty minutes…excuse me, I meant a turn went over thirty minutes."

The first sentence is vague beyond belief "especially with the tools available", care to explain a little more? Time Spiral is still a 6cmc spell, at best powered out on turn 3. The only benefit it has above ANT/TES is the counterpackage which argubly is weaker than the discard pacakage that TES/ANT plays. The biggest strength I feel in Time Spiral decks is its ability to dodge hate more effectively while TES/ANT are pushed out by the combo-hating decks.

I don't see how drawing seven cards and untapping all your lands is unfair. Maybe that's why he's playing Sword of Feast of Famine in his control list (an interesting list btw but I feel that playing 4 Chrome Mox in control is already a wrong move i.e. card disadvantage for minimal value gained, not to mention using Chrome Mox is almost directly anti-synergistic to playing with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas).

Anyway, just my thoughts! Not every article is going to be awesome, and this is one article where I disagreed with some points and a decklist, and mainly about him whining about Time Spiral and control decks being unviable in Legacy. At least I think that a control deck packing 4 Chrome Mox isn't going to be viable, unless you pair that card disadvantage up with a card advantage engine e.g. Bob. He does run some TfKs though, so, shrugs!

[GGoober]

LOL yeah I forgot to mention that part too, because that's not necessarily a right/wrong answer. It depends what decks you're playing against and what other cards you have in your hand. I usually don't drop Ringleaders early too, but it all depends, if my opponent is playing a lot of land-destruction and discard, you would probably want to drop that Ringleader ASAP, all situational again.

What I found was most funny was his statement that control is no longer viable because they go turn 1 Lackey, drop dude, you lose. In fact, I think that only a control deck has the best answer against Lackey (4 StP, 4 FoW). Any non-control deck not playing StP/FoW can drop a dude to block lackey which most likely gets bounced/edicted and you proceed to lose. It's much easier to fight Lackey in a control shell than in a non-control shell, unless you play with FoW/Dazes i.e. once again proving the point control isn't weak to his goblin scenario. And for people who still haven't figured out how to beat gobs in a control shell, run Humility and EPlague for god's sake. Counter the ringleader and no other goblins. StP the lackey, Firespout when you need to but if you don't counter the Ringleader, you probably lost.

EDIT: If I was high thinking that pairing Chrome Mox with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas was disynergistic, i'm not sure about pairing Chalice of the Void in a deck playing Brainstorms and StP, and he talks about control being unviable!!!

[Koby]

Time Spiral decks took down 2 SCG Opens... not quite. Two Hatfield's took down 2 opens.

I think I spot the problem here... Ban Hatfields ;)

[(nameless one)]

My post got deleted?

But ya, Droping a Ringleader off of a Lackey on turn 2 is a bad move and as a control player, control does have the best tools to deal with a first turn Lackey.

[Admiral_Arzar]

*Yawn*

The Lackey->Ringleader thing already had my convinced this guy was an idiot, and then I read the part about Time Spiral. Really? Spiral Tide = Hulk Flash? What kind of fucked-up, drug-laden, alternate universe of faerie rape does this guy live in?

[GradStudentGuy]

This article is a little ridiculous. Timespiral is not at the power level that requires banning. A resolved timesprial does not guarantee you the game at all. You can draw seven non useful spells or lands and fizzle on the spot. You can also refill your opponents hands with FOW. Furthermore a turn 3-4 combo is fair. Decks like affinity and Dredge have very favorable match ups against High Tides.

[Piceli89]

What an idiot. Nuff said.

[warallthetimne]

The deck still works without timespiral so banning really does nothing.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

The deck still works without timespiral so banning really does nothing.

Thats why everyone was playing spring tide before they unbanned time spiral, right?

[Admiral_Arzar]

Thats why everyone was playing spring tide before they unbanned time spiral, right?

It's playable but inferior without the card, obviously. The question is, why are people bitching and moaning about a T3-T4 combo deck? This is legacy, you can die on turn 1 for crying out loud.

[death]

The deck is strong and is only starting to become popular. I believe people are whining not because the deck is dominating but simply because Candelabras became too pricey and they weren't able to acquire a playset when they had the chance. Meanwhile Ichorid is laughing at the corner, whoopin' anyone caught on their feet with no clue of what's going to hit them.

[Admiral_Arzar]

The deck is strong and is only starting to become popular. I believe people are whining not because the deck is dominating but simply because Candelabras became too pricey and they weren't able to acquire a playset when they had the chance. Meanwhile Ichorid is laughing at the corner, whoopin' anyone caught on their feet with no clue of what's going to hit them.

LOL. It certainly does deflect attention from other combo decks, which is interesting as there's so many right now (and some may or may not be better than Tide). I kind of want to cycle through every combo deck that's viable right now, and just find out which one takes my meta by surprise in the most thorough fashion.

[3eowulf]

I believe my signature can easily be applied to this article.

1- Who is him? Looking at his other articles he seems a constructed player... has he ever played in a legacy tournament?
2- Isn't he ashamed of posting a decklist like that? If that should resemble how a controls deck looks like to him, I'm not seriously going to consider any of his statemens about legacy. Sorry.

[voltron00x]

I skipped a week this week, but my next article talks about Time Spiral. I’m pretty much in the camp that says that minus the Hatfields, we’re not even having this conversation. It’s a really solid deck among many other really solid decks.

Also, AHHHHHHHH!!!!! I CAN’T PLAY THE EXACT DECK I LIKE! BAN THINGS!!!! BAN THEM ALL!!!!!!

Etc.

[Tammit67]

I skipped a week this week, but my next article talks about Time Spiral. I’m pretty much in the camp that says that minus the Hatfields, we’re not even having this conversation. It’s a really solid deck among many other really solid decks.

Also, AHHHHHHHH!!!!! I CAN’T PLAY THE EXACT DECK I LIKE! BAN THINGS!!!! BAN THEM ALL!!!!!!

Etc.

Well that's good. Maybe we can generate some real talk then

[Michael Keller]

Just to reiterate that aside from the Hatfields, Ben Wienburg also came in 10th place with High Tide at Atlanta, Gerry Thompson came in 22nd at Memphis, and Kyle Morin 9th at Edison.

Also, on a somewhat related topic, Meditate at Star City is almost up to $10.00 now.

[Hanni]

The sky is falling!!!!1!! BAN NOW!!!1!!

[voltron00x]

Just to reiterate that aside from the Hatfields, Ben Wienburg also came in 10th place with High Tide at Atlanta, Gerry Thompson came in 22nd at Memphis, and Kyle Morin 9th at Edison.

Also, on a somewhat related topic, Meditate at Star City is almost up to $10.00 now.

I told y'all to stock up on Meditates.

Also, I have to admit I don't know Kyle Morin, but that Gerry guy is pretty good, and that Wienburg fellow is also no slouch. You could replace "High Tide" with any viable deck and none of those finishes would shock anyone, which is kind of the point.

[Michael Keller]

I told y'all to stock up on Meditates.

Also, I have to admit I don't know Kyle Morin, but that Gerry guy is pretty good, and that Wienburg fellow is also no slouch. You could replace "High Tide" with any viable deck and none of those finishes would shock anyone, which is kind of the point.

Actually it matters more than you might think, because no matter how good each of those aforementioned might be, it doesn't change the fact the deck itself placed very high in these string of events and I would venture to state the obvious that the value of the deck is what kept even slightly above-average players from picking up the cards to pilot it. Just because Candelabra of Tawnos' aren't easily accesible doesn't mean the deck isn't ridiculous to begin with.

Now that people have seen what the deck can genuinely do on a grand stage, it will become moot whoever pilots the deck as long as they play well. Candelabra may be a "niche" card, but again - it doesn't mean the card (or deck for that matter) isn't broken just because Thompson or Wienburg are running it.

[voltron00x]

Actually it matters more than you might think, because no matter how good each of those aforementioned might be, it doesn't change the fact the deck itself placed very high in these string of events and I would venture to state the obvious that the value of the deck is what kept even slightly above-average players from picking up the cards to pilot it. Just because Candelabra of Tawnos' aren't easily accesible doesn't mean the deck isn't ridiculous to begin with.

Now that people have seen what the deck can genuinely do on a grand stage, it will become moot whoever pilots the deck as long as they play well. Candelabra may be a "niche" card, but again - it doesn't mean the card isn't broken just because Thompson or Wienburg are running it.

See, the thing is, that's what people said about TES, and ANT, and Reanimator, and so on, but it didn't come true. The format adapted AND people not as skilled didn't replicate those results. With regard to this deck, I'm not convinced the exact same thing isn't happening. Great players playing great decks before the format adapts always do well, period. Sure, the deck's damn good, and so are, what, 15-20 other decks?