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Thread: [Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

  1. #1061

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Went 4-2 today.
    Lost against burn (I know..) won g1 easily. G2 I make a stupid mistake fetching the wrong land (Marsh Flats -> Island) casting Ponder which would've allowed me to win.. but it's the wrong land, cards get shuffeled in again I miss on the ponder (now cast from an Usea). He gets his second turn for pillar with Extraction + MBT backup.
    G3 see g2 without the mistake.

    Also lost against Jund (..) by keeping lose hands and getting blown up by Wasteland both times. G2 I still get to Emrakul but he has 7 permanents, keeping Ooze from whom I get beaten down 1 turn before I can find Entomb.

    Wins were against: Junk, Painter, Gwu Enchantress, Tezzerator.


    I tried the 1 Mox Diamond from phazonmuant, drew him 1 time with 0 lands after drawing 14 cards from Grizzelbrand (still won) and 2 times in my opening 7 (6) together with a single land were I'd rather would've had my second Chrome Mox. Won't try again.
    Again never needed Reanimate nor wished my Goryo's Vengeance was one but again I did play 2 Children.
    I did move the Tendrils to the sideboard to make room for Gitaxian Probe's and I can see it staying there (boarded it in vs Enchantress & Tezzerator because of humility/bridge).


    Oh by the way, again my sideboard was pretty much irrelevant, used Serenity 2 times (one time it got destroyed), Submerge one time and Abrupt Decay one time for not much use. It's amazing how well this deck can play around hate just by its mainboard alone.

  2. #1062

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    I have played approx. 30 games online, with minimal variation of the basic shell.
    My findings (some are surprising) are:

    ) the right number of GB is 2 or 3

    ) Tendris (1 copy) win is more consistent than Emrakul: I always have the mana to win with Tendrils but not all the time for a win with the 15/15 monster.
    Currently I avoid having Emrakul main deck. It is just a redundant win-more condition.

    ) for combos, discard package (+ 1 silence) is better than countermagic as it allows to see the other player hand and cost always 1 CMC.

    ) 1 Silence is mandatory and better than 2 silence main deck.

    ) 4 Gitaxian probes are mandatory: 2 life loss is negligible vs the capability to see the other player hand and shorten the deck.

    ) the worst match-up are against: heavy discard, heavy countermagic, wasteland+stifle package, graveyard hate

    ) card with CMC greater than 3 are unplayable, mana curve is small at 14 lands + 6 artifact accel.

    ) 5 artifact accel (4 petals + 1 crome) are mandatory 2 cromes debatable

    ) 7 reanimate spells are needed with 4 shallow and 2 goryo mandatory.
    I like reanimate over the third goryo

    ) Careful Study creates too much card disadvantage and intuition is too slow.


    Sideboard:

    ) Echoing T is better than Chain of Vapor: good against Chalice of Void

    ) Boomerang is better than Chain of Vapor:

    ) a trans-formative SB is the only option:

    Boseiju, as a sideboard option is pretty strong against no-wasteland controls

    Often, I transform the classic deck UBw by moving in:
    2 Tidespout Tyrant
    2 Echoing T
    4 Show and Tell
    1 Boseiju

    - 2 Entomb
    - 1 Cabal Therapy
    - 3 Reanimate spells
    - 3 mana accel

    I am surprised people avoided testing more about TT:
    it allows to bounce back Omniscience, DRS, Pithing Needle, Crypt, Thalia, Karakas, Jace, Leiliana and Lands and more: when SnT resolve you can bounce back other people permanent by casting a spell.
    Seldom people have a creature removal as they board out vs graveyard hate in.

    Looking forward hearing your feedback and if anybody have tried consistently a SnT + GB + TT deck.

  3. #1063
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Rush80 View Post
    ) Careful Study creates too much card disadvantage and intuition is too slow.
    Just one thought on this. Careful study isn't necessarily as much 'real' card disadvantage as meets the eye. Clearly 'draw 2 discard 2, plus cast the spell' = -1; but there are two points to note. First, if you are discarding G'brand, the card disadvantage is the same as entomb (-1 + G'brand in the yard). Secondly later on in the game, if you are discarding chaff that you don't need then the effective card disadvantage is mitigated, even effectively reversed. Take for example a situation in which you start with two lands in hand, it is now turn 3 and you have drawn two more lands in your draw steps. Those last two lands in this deck may be close to blanks, and careful study replacing these with fresh cards approximates +2 card advantage (obv. not quite, but you get my drift). That is why in the classic reaminator deck, where I have more personal experience, it is often important not to put lands into play beyond your first two or so.

  4. #1064

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Cacks View Post
    Just one thought on this. Careful study isn't necessarily as much 'real' card disadvantage as meets the eye. Clearly 'draw 2 discard 2, plus cast the spell' = -1; but there are two points to note. First, if you are discarding G'brand, the card disadvantage is the same as entomb (-1 + G'brand in the yard). Secondly later on in the game, if you are discarding chaff that you don't need then the effective card disadvantage is mitigated, even effectively reversed. Take for example a situation in which you start with two lands in hand, it is now turn 3 and you have drawn two more lands in your draw steps. Those last two lands in this deck may be close to blanks, and careful study replacing these with fresh cards approximates +2 card advantage (obv. not quite, but you get my drift). That is why in the classic reaminator deck, where I have more personal experience, it is often important not to put lands into play beyond your first two or so.
    Agreed.
    It shall read, for a deck low on Fatties (3/4 like TinFins), having additional card disadvantage on top of 4 copies of Entomb and mana accel, may be detrimental especially if you cannot discard a Fatties: I think CS is great in Reanimator and poorer in TF classic build.

  5. #1065
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    I tend to agree on careful study.

    I do disagree about Emrakul being in the maindeck. Based on my games played, and many matches I've watched, it pulls it's weight more often than you think. Against decks that are running maindeck storm hate (in particular Gaddock Teeg and Leyline of Sanctity), Emrakul is quite necessary to win. It also has corner case uses of storming infinite if your opponent has gained a billion life, but that almost never comes up. I think the main use vs. things like Gaddock Teeg are probably enough to justify maindeck inclusion.
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    His graveyard was a fucking encyclopedia of countermagic.

  6. #1066
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Rush80 View Post
    I have played approx. 30 games online, with minimal variation of the basic shell.
    My findings (some are surprising) are:

    ) the right number of GB is 2 or 3
    I agree with 2, 3 seems a bit much unless you are running a Careful Study version, then 4 seems like the right number to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rush80 View Post
    ) Tendris (1 copy) win is more consistent than Emrakul: I always have the mana to win with Tendrils but not all the time for a win with the 15/15 monster.
    Currently I avoid having Emrakul main deck. It is just a redundant win-more condition.
    Emrakul has gotten me more wins than Tendrils has. I would say that 85% of my wins are off the back of Emrakul+Griselbrand swings, and outside of the 3 games in which I have used Reanimate on Griselbrand and the 2 that I used Rituals to power out Griselbrand, Tendrils gets me the win in maybe 1 game out of 10. That being said, I still believe that having both Emrakul and Tendrils in the main deck are the correct way to go. In fact, the games that I don't win with Emrakul are due to not finding a certain piece to get it out within 14 draws, usually a Lotus Petal or Dark Ritual, and require an attack phase with Griselbrand so I can draw 7 more cards to find that last piece.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rush80 View Post
    ) for combos, discard package (+ 1 silence) is better than countermagic as it allows to see the other player hand and cost always 1 CMC.

    ) 1 Silence is mandatory and better than 2 silence main deck.
    Agreed on Discard+Silence package. 2 Maindeck Silence isn't bad though, especially if you are like me and couldn't borrow a second Thoughtseize for an event.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rush80 View Post
    ) 4 Gitaxian probes are mandatory: 2 life loss is negligible vs the capability to see the other player hand and shorten the deck.
    Agreed. Probe lets me keep greedy hands and gives me great information. I love keeping hands that have Land+Probe+Therapy and then a combo piece or two, since leading with Probe>Therapy gives me a good start on my opponent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rush80 View Post
    ) the worst match-up are against: heavy discard, heavy countermagic, wasteland+stifle package, graveyard hate
    Agreed.

    I'm still trying to get a hold on the Tempo Thresh match-up, the heavy countermagic is rough, especially on top of their clock and mana denial package.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rush80 View Post
    ) card with CMC greater than 3 are unplayable, mana curve is small at 14 lands + 6 artifact accel.

    ) 5 artifact accel (4 petals + 1 crome) are mandatory 2 cromes debatable
    Outside of Tendrils, fatties, and Massacre, I don't have anything larger than 2 cmc. With 14 lands, casting 3 cmc cards on demand is too sketchy for me since I love to keep greedy hands with this deck.

    I do want to find out if adding a Chrome Mox or a Mox Diamond to bring the artifact mana to 6 slots is worth it, since I felt like Lotus Petals were often a choke point for me. I do find Chrome Mox to be awkward in the opening hand, but I love seeing it mid combo, and I would imagine Mox Diamond is better after a couple draw 7s.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rush80 View Post
    ) 7 reanimate spells are needed with 4 shallow and 2 goryo mandatory.
    I like reanimate over the third goryo
    I think 4/3/1 is the right number of reanimation spells. I think playing less than 8 is wrong, since failing to draw one of these is awful for our deck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rush80 View Post
    ) Careful Study creates too much card disadvantage and intuition is too slow.
    Careful Study is great when you have 4 Griselbrand, and pitching excess land or other useless spells doesn't feel like disadvantage to me.

    Intuition is way too slow though, 3 cmc and is overall awkward.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rush80 View Post
    Sideboard:

    ) Echoing T is better than Chain of Vapor: good against Chalice of Void

    ) Boomerang is better than Chain of Vapor:
    I think a mix of the two is best, Chalice at 2 stops our reanimation spells, and leaning too heavily on Echoing Truth and Serenity makes that awkward. In fact, if you are running Serenity, Chain of Vapor should get the nod over Echoing Truth, since you have an answer to Chalice at 2 different CMC, and Chain is overall easier to cast due to costing less; see our discussion on Abeyance over Silence.

    Boomerang is too blue heavy for this deck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rush80 View Post
    ) a trans-formative SB is the only option:

    Boseiju, as a sideboard option is pretty strong against no-wasteland controls

    Often, I transform the classic deck UBw by moving in:
    2 Tidespout Tyrant
    2 Echoing T
    4 Show and Tell
    1 Boseiju

    - 2 Entomb
    - 1 Cabal Therapy
    - 3 Reanimate spells
    - 3 mana accel

    I am surprised people avoided testing more about TT:
    it allows to bounce back Omniscience, DRS, Pithing Needle, Crypt, Thalia, Karakas, Jace, Leiliana and Lands and more: when SnT resolve you can bounce back other people permanent by casting a spell.
    Seldom people have a creature removal as they board out vs graveyard hate in.

    Looking forward hearing your feedback and if anybody have tried consistently a SnT + GB + TT deck.
    I personally hate trans-formative sideboards. I feel as though building a sideboard with answers to the hate that people bring in is better than attempting to dodge that hate by making a more garbage version of a different deck. What do you do if the deck you change your plan for ends up having hate that effects both decks? You've effectively done nothing useful by doing so.

    That being said, Tidespout Tyrant is a neat idea, but only if you are using SnT, since Reanimating it in this deck gives you no advantage over reanimating Griselbrand or Emrakul, and due to the heavy blue requirement is nigh impossible to cast. Since I feel that SnT is wrong for this deck, Tidespout Tyrant is a waste of a slot.

    Boseiju is neat though, I saw that work out for people, but since the version I play runs on 14 lands, having a land that doesn't give me colored mana is incredibly sketchy. I would much prefer to lean on Silence+Discard to fight counterspells.

    In other news, I played at a local TCG Player event on Sunday, and ended up splitting top 4 due to the others wanting to go home (it was Father's day, after all).

    Round 1: Bye
    Round 2: Combo Elves 2-0
    Round 3: Belcher 2-1 (he won the dice roll and I actually beat him in game 1. I found this incredibly hilarious)
    Round 4: ID

    Top 4 split.

    Easiest tournament of my life.
    Tinfins & Bizarro Stormy & Belcher & DDFT
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    Back to back t1 kills at SCG STL 2013:
    https://youtu.be/kk3crCPsNLg

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    Acclimation has solved the deck. Thread CLOSED.

  7. #1067
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Acclimation View Post
    Easiest tournament of my life.
    I petition the users of this thread for a name change of Tin Fins to "Skill Game".
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  8. #1068
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Koby View Post
    I petition the users of this thread for a name change of Tin Fins to "Skill Game".

    I about died from laughter when I was watching my feature match and the commentators called Tinfins a difficult and challenging deck.

    I'm not saying it's the easiest deck to play, but the plan is so linear that I could probably get white girl wasted and still beat people with the deck.
    Tinfins & Bizarro Stormy & Belcher & DDFT
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    Quote Originally Posted by .dk View Post
    Acclimation has solved the deck. Thread CLOSED.

  9. #1069
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Acclimation View Post
    I could probably get white girl wasted and still beat people with the deck.
    Not trying to brag, but that's pretty much half my streamed archives. :D
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  10. #1070
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Yes, Game 1 is usually a joke, one way or another. Sideboard games get a bit harder, but this is definitely storm on training wheels (as Koby called it once).

    Tin Fins 3: Return of the Skill Game
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    His graveyard was a fucking encyclopedia of countermagic.

  11. #1071
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Koby View Post
    I petition the users of this thread for a name change of Tin Fins to "Skill Game".
    Petition denied. The highlight of my Magic career thus far was a Sealab 2021 episode synopsis being read on the SCG live feed. Since I'm a terrible player, adding to the prestigious list of terrible Magic deck names may be the most I ever achieve at the game.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

  12. #1072

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    @Rush80, how is it that you support a transformational SB with SnT yet advocate not having spells at 3 CMC or greater?

    And if there is going to be a name change, it shoule be TinFins 3: A Modest Proposal.

  13. #1073

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Cogito,

    It looks 3 CMC is the maximum playable:

    ") card with CMC greater than 3 are unplayable"

    so show and tell makes the cut but 4 CMC is too much: at 4 there are B and U (e.g. Cryptic Command) and W cards worth considering but CMC is of primary importance for this deck

    I am planning to test a transformative SB with Goblin C. but I am highly skeptical, even if I add further mana accel.
    One way is to add 1/2 Boseiju from the SB which make Shallow, Goryo, Snt uncounterable.

  14. #1074

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    I still am not on the 3 CMC train, and I think we have found that SnT is just not effective enough with the limited amount of creatures and mana.

    As for Boseju, it is very intersting. However, what I don't like about it is that it does nothing for entomb, which is the most important spell to resolve. For these reasons, I would rather just bring in additional silences to protect our GY plan.

    Regardless, let us know how the testing works out for you. Perhaps one of these cards will end up like LDV, where it seemed superflous but actually ended up being pretty amazing.

  15. #1075
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by Rush80 View Post
    Cogito,

    It looks 3 CMC is the maximum playable:

    ") card with CMC greater than 3 are unplayable"

    so show and tell makes the cut but 4 CMC is too much: at 4 there are B and U (e.g. Cryptic Command) and W cards worth considering but CMC is of primary importance for this deck

    I am planning to test a transformative SB with Goblin C. but I am highly skeptical, even if I add further mana accel.
    One way is to add 1/2 Boseiju from the SB which make Shallow, Goryo, Snt uncounterable.
    If you want to do a transformational board to something as different as Charbelcher, why not go for ETW instead. You could do a board like:

    2 Chrome Mox
    4 Rite of Flame
    3 ETW
    4 Manamorphose
    2 Burning Wish

    It's still terrible, but dodges all the Fatty/yard hate people will bring in, still hard to counter, and nobody's going to leave sweepers in against this deck.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

  16. #1076

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    the problem is the combo hate will be the same ^^
    mindbreak trap , thalia , fluster , pierce , canonist etc

  17. #1077
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by P-E View Post
    the problem is the combo hate will be the same ^^
    mindbreak trap , thalia , fluster , pierce , canonist etc
    Yes... which is one of the many reasons that transformations likely won't work with this deck. We've tried a LOT of them over the past year. All are pretty much bad. Move along.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    His graveyard was a fucking encyclopedia of countermagic.

  18. #1078
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Yeah and I just realized you'd have to have 4 ETW if you wanted B. Wish, which would only leave you with 3 Manamorphose, and that just CLEARLY sucks.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

  19. #1079

    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    the only plan is man plan ^^
    phyrexian obliterator , tarmo and alike haha (just think to discard/surgical stp)

  20. #1080
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    Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

    Quote Originally Posted by P-E View Post
    the only plan is man plan ^^
    phyrexian obliterator , tarmo and alike haha (just think to discard/surgical stp)
    Honestly, that's probably the best bet for a transformation, but I have 0 faith in it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    His graveyard was a fucking encyclopedia of countermagic.

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