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Thread: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

  1. #301

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by fdiv_bug View Post
    I don't have any comments yet, or else I would.

    It's the list I'm starting with, and I ordered most of the missing pieces yesterday. I'm still short one Volcanic Island, but if I can't borrow one from a friend I might run with an 8th fetch until I can pick up the dual. Do people think this would work all right, or should I go up one Tropical Island or Underground Sea (I have playsets of both, but only one of the other duals in the deck) in place of the second Volcanic in the meantime?
    Try another Usea or Tropical as having more duals is good in a Wasteland format with DNT mania ;)

  2. #302

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by lavafrogg View Post
    Sasan!

    I was going to pm you last night but I fell asleep.... I didn't realize this was your pet deck:p

    I play midrange and ashiok is a beating if he goes uncontested for a few turns... He can be decayed though so you need to be careful. As for our discussion yesterday I will just pick up here, as it seems appropriate.

    This deck reminds me of the 4 color threshold deck that won a GP back when the world was thresh-goblins-solidarity the guy just got greedy, said fuck it, and won a tourney. The list never took off because it's mana base was terrible.

    I do not understand why you would play this over RUG or BUG in that the only thing you gain over RUG which gets more burn or BUG which gets better access to dismember/discard.

    What do you gain?

    You have a shakier manabase against tempo/mana disruption style decks.

    You still have a terrible mid range match up.

    Do you pick up options against control? Don't tempo decks beat control anyway?

    I am just confused all over.

    Haha great that we can finish the discussion from the RUG thread ;) Yes it is my pet deck.

    I will let the other bUrg players state what they think about your arguments. Let the discussion begin. I will post my experience later. It is boring if I always start a discussion :-)

  3. #303

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasan View Post
    Haha great that we can finish the discussion from the RUG thread ;) Yes it is my pet deck.

    I will let the other bUrg players state what they think about your arguments. Let the discussion begin. I will post my experience later. It is boring if I always start a discussion :-)
    You would play RUGB over Rug or BUG for access to all 4 colors, to say it simple.

    It is my experience that tempo decks really want Bolt to have reach. Granted, I haven't played a ton of games with BUG Delver, but I've always liked having Bolt in the deck as a way to close out games.

    The reason you would want BURG over RUG is because of Deathrite Shaman and Decay.

    Deathrite Shaman really is just that good. It is good against Rug, it's good against opposing Shamans, it is good against graveyard strategies. He just does a lot of work. In addition, you are playing less 2 drops, which makes holding up one mana situational counters/stifle more easy.

    Decay also deals with some problem cards that RUG struggles with, like Counterbalance. In addition, it kills opposing creatures, it is versatile. In a pinch you might be able to float mana or use your Shamans to kill a Bloon Moon.

    Decay is a better "flex" slot than RUG has access too.

    So the question becomes is having Decay and DRS worth the shaky manabase?

    I'm still not sure. The question becomes harder if you like playing Gitaxian probe, because there really isn't room to play Probe and everything else in this deck.

  4. #304

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    I want to drop in an additional question: Is probe that good in RUG? Spell Snare does a hell lot of work in bUrg and not playing Probe makes you a better player as you must predict every key interaction ;-)

  5. #305

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasan View Post
    I want to drop in an additional question: Is probe that good in RUG? Spell Snare does a hell lot of work in bUrg and not playing Probe makes you a better player as you must predict every key interaction ;-)
    I think so for reasons already stated. It is impossible to know what to play around turn 1 or 2 without Probe.

  6. #306
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by lavafrogg View Post
    Sasan!

    I was going to pm you last night but I fell asleep.... I didn't realize this was your pet deck:p

    I play midrange and ashiok is a beating if he goes uncontested for a few turns... He can be decayed though so you need to be careful. As for our discussion yesterday I will just pick up here, as it seems appropriate.

    This deck reminds me of the 4 color threshold deck that won a GP back when the world was thresh-goblins-solidarity the guy just got greedy, said fuck it, and won a tourney. The list never took off because it's mana base was terrible.

    I do not understand why you would play this over RUG or BUG in that the only thing you gain over RUG which gets more burn or BUG which gets better access to dismember/discard.

    What do you gain?

    You have a shakier manabase against tempo/mana disruption style decks.

    You still have a terrible mid range match up.

    Do you pick up options against control? Don't tempo decks beat control anyway?

    I am just confused all over.
    I agree with Personalbackfire. I would like to add...

    Honestly, the mana base isn't really that "shaky." It's a blue deck at its core, and every spell costs one (except for abrupt decay.) Every once in a while I find myself being tilted off of mana, but very rarely, and for the most part, being a tempo deck, the opponent is likely putting themselves behind with all of our stifles and wastelands and shamans. As well, Deathrite really is the adhesive that makes the deck possible. He keeps ANT off of threshold, negates past in flames, keeps RUG off of threshold. He's a swiss army knife that allows for more explosive mana in the early game to use for more disruption (our combo matchup is more definitively better than other tempo decks), deploying threats, and cantripping. Near the end of the game, he circumvents copious amounts of blockers to end the game quickly. As well, he allows a lot of tempo can be had even while on the draw when playing a shaman and following it up with a wasteland and stifle, while still actively deploying threats and leaving counter mana up. Deathrite makes it much more difficult for other tempo decks to just run away with the game off of a wasteland.

    Bolt allows for tighter play and it can be used to close out games, rather than running 4 abrupt decays (which is clunky and would force us to run more lands instead of spells.) like BUG. Having access to both allows for tighter play and powerful options in dealing with permanents RUG normally can't deal with.

    The mana base is initially very difficult to navigate, but becomes much easier with plenty of practice.

    Also, having access to sideboard cards like Fire Convenant is powerfully rewarding and it works to shore up those troublesome mid range matchups. Our matchup against Jund is significantly better than RUG's.


    p.s. Spell Snare is the tits. It stops nearly every game ending two drop for us at all points in the game. I don't care to know for certain that my opponent has a stone forge in their hand. It is in my best interest to assume it is there, and I'm much more comfortable knowing that I can counter it when they play it.


    I used to play RUG. After making the switch, I tried to go back to RUG, but I was disappointed in it's lack of relative explosiveness, utility, and clunkiness in tapping out for tarmogoyf. I returned to BURG with more spell snares and I haven't looked back, nor have I ever been disappointed.
    Rest in peace, Grandpa Morphling.

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  7. #307
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasan View Post
    That is due to the fact that Merfolk was always a niche pet deck.
    It was tier 1 during the Misstep days...

    Anyway, enough nitpicking - Ashiok looks pretty awesome in here. In theory even that awesome that I want to and will play 2 copies of it. Might be unncessary or bad even, but I'd really like to draw that card as often as possible to see if it's really that good.
    Humphrey is always correct.

  8. #308

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Lots of proponents of the deck ; ) I'd just like to add that the combination of Abrupt Decay, Deathrite Shaman, Spell Snare, Lightning Bolt, and ALL of the good sideboard cards really gives the deck a lot of play and many options in any single game. It feels great to have multiple outs to equipment, Tarmogoyf, and all of the other troublesome permanents in the field. Except for Wurmcoil Engine and Sundering Titan. Those cards are a real beating.

    I think I like the new sideboard, too. I was confused at cutting Spell Pierce at first but now that I think about it, that card's never been very good for me. Combo decks play around it all day and we have better options against planeswalkers. The only time I miss it is against MUD, but I think my strategy against that deck is to wake up on the winning side of the fluctuation curve each morning. Clique is still really good against Sneak Show and combo but I think that having better cards against Death and Taxes, Patriot, and the midrange decks is worth it. Ashiok is interesting. So far, he just eats Abrupt Decay and gets attacked by Nemesis. I haven't managed to steal a creature yet but there is time ; )

  9. #309
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    I don't want to rehash what everyone else has already said, because I couldn't say it any better myself.

    What i will say is that I wanted to play a deck with the best 1 drops in the format.

    Delver =/= not fooling around and we're putting you on a clock
    Deathrite is "brainstrom" it fixes your draws, it fixes your mana, its a clock, its defensive, its control it simply is what you need it to be
    Brainstorm is Brainstorm' nuff said
    Bolt, if you're playing tempo without red you're doing it wrong
    Mongoose, so much better than Geist of Saint Traft. Faster, comes out easier.

    The deck has a lot of play, the ability to clock with delver AND deathrite in the goyf mirror is huge.
    Abrupt decay fixes the problems of counterbalance and chalice of the void presents to RUG
    Abrupt decay, Spell Snare and Golgari Charm answers Rest in Peace, which RUG has no answers

    It's RUG with better technology, better suited for today's Legacy threats

  10. #310

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    This just in, Ashiok can steal Grave Titan. I'm sold.

  11. #311

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Concerning the vulnerability of Ashiok versus Decay and Nemesis you should take this into consideration:

    Nemesis needs 3 full turns to kill an Ashiok. That is why Ashiok reads: You gain 9 life. It stalls the board versus Nemesis and makes it possible to attack through it. And in the course of the three turns the chances are good that we can steal a useful creature with him. Ashiok is a nice tool to fight Nemesis.

    Being a Decay magnet is good as our Goyfs and Delvers survive in that course. Having more must-answer cards versus a limited aresenal of removal is always great.


    A sidenote: Ashiok not only shines versus Nicfit by stealing a Grave Titan. It makes a Veteran Explorer useless, as the card only triggers if it leaves the battlefield and not if it is put into exile from the library :)
    Last edited by Sasan; 11-06-2013 at 10:54 AM.

  12. #312

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    You guys rock concerning advocating bUrg. I added a section to the primer: "Believers in bUrg". I quoted some of the best anwers there ;-)

    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post747940

    I have nothing to add.

  13. #313
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    I can vouch that Ashiok is insane.
    I played tested him a lot in vintage (as well as BURG), and he just gains SO much value!

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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasan View Post
    A sidenote: Ashiok not only shines versus Nicfit by stealing a Grave Titan. It makes a Veteran Explorer useless, as the card only triggers if it leaves the battlefield and not if it is put into graveyard from the library :)
    Not even close.
    Explorer triggers if it is put into a graveyard from the battlefield.
    Thragtusk triggers if it leaves the battlefield.

    Just to be precise. As it will matter in a lot of games (bouncing a Thragtusk will trigger the 3/3 token :D).

    Ashiok could be nice. I'll wait further testing from your side. I feel like it is more of a "control" card but in a tempo shell.
    Weird but maybe fun !

  15. #315
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralf View Post
    Not even close.
    Explorer triggers if it is put into a graveyard from the battlefield.
    Thragtusk triggers if it leaves the battlefield.

    Just to be precise. As it will matter in a lot of games (bouncing a Thragtusk will trigger the 3/3 token :D).

    Ashiok could be nice. I'll wait further testing from your side. I feel like it is more of a "control" card but in a tempo shell.
    Weird but maybe fun !
    The thing is, Ashiok is insane in these midrange aggro-tempo decks. Ashiok is insane in the mirror, vs maverick, vs D&T, BUG etc. It's really solid in these matches.

  16. #316

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralf View Post
    Not even close.
    Explorer triggers if it is put into a graveyard from the battlefield.
    Thragtusk triggers if it leaves the battlefield.

    Just to be precise. As it will matter in a lot of games (bouncing a Thragtusk will trigger the 3/3 token :D).

    Ashiok could be nice. I'll wait further testing from your side. I feel like it is more of a "control" card but in a tempo shell.
    Weird but maybe fun !
    Thanks, it is bit more precise than my statement but the assumption that Explorer can be handled by Ashiok is true. And Thragtusk can be handled, too.

    As you play Nicfit you should know that your MU versus nearly all tempo decks is rather good. With Fire Covenants, Ashiok, Shamans we have perhaps a bit better fighting chance against Nicfit than RUG Delver, Patriot or Team America - the latter has no Stifles so it should be a cakewalk for the Nicfit player.

    We always talk about the applications of Ashiok versus midrange but my buddy Carsten Linden's main intention was to break the tempo mirror with such powerful tools like Loam and Ashiok. Tempo decks are all about having enough lands (Loam fills that spot and attacks the opponent's mana base) and the right use of cantrips (Ashiok ruins all brainstorms and ponders of even the best cantrip players in the world). That Ashiok is great versus midrange and rogue decks like Nicfit and good versus Nemesis decks is a good bonus :)

  17. #317
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    That's it, I'm sold. I'm getting Ashiok in.

    Anyway, for the bUrg VS the world argument:

    Deathrite Shaman has warped Legacy into a format wherein there are only 2 types of "decks to beat" right now - those that play Deathrite Shaman (Jund, BUG Shardless, Elves, hell even Maverick plays them now), and those that try to beat Deathrite Shaman (faster combo decks like ANT, Sneak Show, white decks like UWR, DnT that pack RiP). OK so maybe except RUG... RUG's still in there primarily because of its consistency and the amount of followers the deck has accumulated since its conception.

    With that, why the hell not pack DRS into RUG? Honestly, the tempo mirror feels almost 1 sided sometimes. We can shrink their Goose, they can't. We can get rid of their Goyf, they can't rid us of ours. I've almost never encountered mana issues with the deck, primarily and ironically because of DRS himself - the very reason to splash black.

    Why play bUrg instead of just plain BUG? Simple - Lightning Bolt.

  18. #318
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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by sherko7 View Post
    That's it, I'm sold. I'm getting Ashiok in.

    Anyway, for the bUrg VS the world argument:

    Deathrite Shaman has warped Legacy into a format wherein there are only 2 types of "decks to beat" right now - those that play Deathrite Shaman (Jund, BUG Shardless, Elves, hell even Maverick plays them now), and those that try to beat Deathrite Shaman (faster combo decks like ANT, Sneak Show, white decks like UWR, DnT that pack RiP). OK so maybe except RUG... RUG's still in there primarily because of its consistency and the amount of followers the deck has accumulated since its conception.

    With that, why the hell not pack DRS into RUG? Honestly, the tempo mirror feels almost 1 sided sometimes. We can shrink their Goose, they can't. We can get rid of their Goyf, they can't rid us of ours. I've almost never encountered mana issues with the deck, primarily and ironically because of DRS himself - the very reason to splash black.

    Why play bUrg instead of just plain BUG? Simple - Lightning Bolt.
    Because you'd need to play Sea, as the real reason DRS is so much better than Hierach/BoP is that it will eventually be 2 damage each turn… And then you are basically just playing BURG :)

    BURG is RUG with 2 sea's, and some black cards. That's it.

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    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasan View Post
    A sidenote: Ashiok not only shines versus Nicfit by stealing a Grave Titan. It makes a Veteran Explorer useless, as the card only triggers if it leaves the battlefield and not if it is put into graveyard from the library :)
    I didn't get the Veteran Explorer part. Why would you put a Veteran Explorer into a graveyard from the library?!

  20. #320

    Re: [Deck] bUrg Tempo

    Quote Originally Posted by SirTylerGalt View Post
    I didn't get the Veteran Explorer part. Why would you put a Veteran Explorer into a graveyard from the library?!
    The Nicfit plan is to generate mana with Explorer. That is why they want to cast an explorer, kill it and bring two lands in play and cast their biggies. With Ashiok you can manage to prevent that "combo".

    But Ralf as a NicFit player can perhaps explain it better ;-).

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