Would you like to see True-Name Nemesis gone?

[bjholmes3]

Because Progenitus and Geist of Saint Traft are such a major problem in Legacy. Mark my words, a few months from now and TNN will amount to nothing more than an upgraded beater for the 3 or so legit decks that use him, and we'll all accept his purported "bad design" as just another part of Legacy.

[goblinsplayer]

I'd honestly rather get show and tell banned.

[UnderwaterGuy]

I've always thought it to be absolutely absurd that they don't test design impact for Eternal Magic. Am I missing something here, or is Eternal not a sanctioned variety of competitive-REL Magic?

I just think that's such a cop-out. Magic has existed for nearly twenty-one years now, and slowly but surely the non-Standard card pool (combined with the pre-8th card pool) will grow and grow. In what parallel universe does it make sense to avoid these formats given that *everything* sooner or later categorizes exclusively into Eternal?

I also believe it's ludicrous to assume that Modern is a de facto replacement for Legacy. If that were the case, given Vintage's already difficult price-barrier, what sense would it make to effectively kill all cards predating 8th? You'd have like ten years' worth of cards effectively illegal to play - unless you play in an already rare sanctioned Vintage event.

Yeah but they get to save by not hiring one additional employee to do that work, or more likely just having one person spend a couple hours for each new set to make sure new cards aren't retarded in old formats.

[Lord Seth]

I've always thought it to be absolutely absurd that they don't test design impact for Eternal Magic. Am I missing something here, or is Eternal not a sanctioned variety of competitive-REL Magic?

I just think that's such a cop-out. Magic has existed for nearly twenty-one years now, and slowly but surely the non-Standard card pool (combined with the pre-8th card pool) will grow and grow. In what parallel universe does it make sense to avoid these formats given that *everything* sooner or later categorizes exclusively into Eternal?

Because those formats are by their very nature quite difficult to test for due to having a significantly larger card pool than Standard. And, as you just noted, they grow and grow, making it successively harder to do any kind of actual testing for it.

[ivanpei]

Because Progenitus and Geist of Saint Traft are such a major problem in Legacy. Mark my words, a few months from now and TNN will amount to nothing more than an upgraded beater for the 3 or so legit decks that use him, and we'll all accept his purported "bad design" as just another part of Legacy.

Yea I support this. It's just a beater. The format will adapt, and it won't be as good anymore, but will still see play in a few decks. I still think it's not as stupid as Delver, which is far more broken.

[HammafistRoob]

I agree with Hollywood 100 percent. Who are these people who test for limited and Standard and how much do they get paid? I'd gladly test Vintage, Modern, and Legacy all day for like 10 bucks an hour. Just give me one more competent player to test with and call it a day.

[ESG]

I'm with Hollywood. WOTC honestly should consider Eternal when designing cards. I don't expect them to go deep, but they should do a little bit of testing, especially when they have a card that they think might be pushed a little too much.

I know a number of people who work for WOTC, and they're fantastic players and smart people, so it blows my mind that something like Enter the Infinite could be printed right after Omniscience. Even if you aren't that knowledgeable about Magic, it really doesn't make sense to print a card that lets you play any spell for free and then print a card that lets you draw your deck.

Also, it really wouldn't take much time to mull those things over. The vast majority of the cards from each new set are unplayable in Legacy, so you're looking at less than 10 cards from each set that you might need to test, and those would usually be the same cards that end up getting early chatter on this site and others. Anything that looks broken -- a flying, lifelink Yawgmoth's Bargain, for example -- ought to be sufficiently tested before it's released into the wild.

[YamiJoey]

Funny, because Enter the Infinite definitely falls under every category of 'Unplayable in legacy' as far as I can tell. How many people were playing non-permanents that cost more than about 4 until then? Also Omniscience wasn't exactly 'known technology' until Enter happened. And it's not like it broke the format. Sneak is still putting up better results.

[Dzra]

Because those formats are by their very nature quite difficult to test for due to having a significantly larger card pool than Standard. And, as you just noted, they grow and grow, making it successively harder to do any kind of actual testing for it.

I'm not really on the "test for eternal" boat, but really I don't think it takes a staggering genius to look through a set and determine which half a dozen cards are even remotely Eternal playable. Once you figure that out, it's simple to do a minimal amount of testing using the current meta as a starting place. Just about anyone who is very familiar with the format could do this, and there are quite a lot of us.

Honestly, it would have taken anyone familiar with Legacy about 5 min to look at the latest commander release and realize that out of the 3 or so potentials, True-Name Nemesis stands out as being too uninteractive, and maybe we can change/add some text to fix this. You want him to be Hexproof? Fine. You want him to be unblockable? Fine. But is there a good reason why he can't be damaged? ... maybe? Is there a good reason why his ability can't be Stifled? Hmm. Is there a good reason why his ability doesn't even target a player? Uhhhh. Can we at least give this guy some flavor text so I can interact with him on an emotional level?

Anyways, I'm not even saying that they should test, just that it wouldn't be that backbreaking for them. Really, I'd be perfectly happy if they never gave Legacy a single minute worth of testing if they'd actually support the format.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Personally I like magic games that do go for a looooong time...

This is what I never understood.
I also like interesting and thrilling games, but for me it really doesn't matter that they must last for fifty minutes. My parents do not limit me how many games may I play, so if one game is over fast, I may play another one.
Also, most of the long games are about spinning Top, obsessive rearranging of lands and of course, about the Kibler shuffle. Meh.

[danyul]

Honestly, it would have taken anyone familiar with Legacy about 5 min to look at the latest commander release and realize that out of the 3 or so potentials, True-Name Nemesis stands out as being too uninteractive, and maybe we can change/add some text to fix this. You want him to be Hexproof? Fine. You want him to be unblockable? Fine. But is there a good reason why he can't be damaged? ... maybe? Is there a good reason why his ability can't be Stifled? Hmm. Is there a good reason why his ability doesn't even target a player? Uhhhh. Can we at least give this guy some flavor text so I can interact with him on an emotional level?

LOL. TNN is so uninteractive that you can't even target him with your feelings.

[Purgatory]

LOL. TNN is so uninteractive that you can't even target him with your feelings.

This, contrary to TNN, made me happy.

[clavio]

Playing against TNN is way more fun than getting counter/topped out of a game ever was.

[ESG]

Also Omniscience wasn't exactly 'known technology' until Enter happened. And it's not like it broke the format. Sneak is still putting up better results.

Prior to Enter the Infinite's printing, Omniscience was played in the Show and Tell build that ran Burning Wish instead of Sneak Attack. Part of the problem of Show and Tell is that there are so many versions of the deck. The card did not used to be very powerful, but then WOTC decided to start printing absurd permanents like Emrakul, Griselbrand, and Omniscience. Show and Tell is only as broken as what you can cheat in. Unfortunately, WOTC continues to up the ante on that. I can see two possibilities: One is that Show and Tell will never be banned because enough people choose to play tempo decks that its tournament dominance will never quite be obvious; the other is that WOTC will decide to print a series of permanents that say, effectively, "When this enters the battlefield, you win the game."

[Esper3k]

If a deck's dominance of a meta isn't obvious, then one could say it's not actually dominant.

[TheKingslayer]

Playing against TNN is way more fun than getting counter/topped out of a game ever was.

I feel that Deathrite and Abrupt decay were great technologies to add to the format. Abrupt decay offers versatile removal (that is highly maindeckable) that can get rid of CBalance. As well, we formerly had K. Grip, and Green Sun'z Zenith to circumvent it. Also, not to mention that Counterbalance can be snared, pierced, swan songed, while the most efficient removal for TNN on the stack is Pyroblast.

[Barook]

I've always thought it to be absolutely absurd that they don't test design impact for Eternal Magic. Am I missing something here, or is Eternal not a sanctioned variety of competitive-REL Magic?

I just think that's such a cop-out. Magic has existed for nearly twenty-one years now, and slowly but surely the non-Standard card pool (combined with the pre-8th card pool) will grow and grow. In what parallel universe does it make sense to avoid these formats given that *everything* sooner or later categorizes exclusively into Eternal?

I also believe it's ludicrous to assume that Modern is a de facto replacement for Legacy. If that were the case, given Vintage's already difficult price-barrier, what sense would it make to effectively kill all cards predating 8th? You'd have like ten years' worth of cards effectively illegal to play - unless you play in an already rare sanctioned Vintage event.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...g/daily/ld/269

One the one hand, they design Commander cards with Eternal in mind, but on the other hand, they do not test the cards?

Is it really too much to ask test the few chosen cards that aren't Commander crap to playtest them a few games?

[Dzra]

while the most efficient removal for TNN on the stack is Pyroblast.

Hit them for 20 style points.

.

[JBlaze]

Saying "we don't test for eternal" is such a cop-out. It takes absolutely no testing whatsoever to see that some of these cards are just insane.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I've always thought it to be absolutely absurd that they don't test design impact for Eternal Magic. Am I missing something here, or is Eternal not a sanctioned variety of competitive-REL Magic?

I just think that's such a cop-out. Magic has existed for nearly twenty-one years now, and slowly but surely the non-Standard card pool (combined with the pre-8th card pool) will grow and grow. In what parallel universe does it make sense to avoid these formats given that *everything* sooner or later categorizes exclusively into Eternal?

I also believe it's ludicrous to assume that Modern is a de facto replacement for Legacy. If that were the case, given Vintage's already difficult price-barrier, what sense would it make to effectively kill all cards predating 8th? You'd have like ten years' worth of cards effectively illegal to play - unless you play in an already rare sanctioned Vintage event.

Implying one person can do the job that almost half this forum put together can't handle (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...2-0-Stillbirth).

Implying WotC has released more than one card in the past 10 years that needed to be banned in Legacy.

Implying WotC cares if they Mental Misstep once every 12 blocks or so.

Implying giving any single person the power to basically preemptively ban cards (by not printing them) is anywhere close to a good idea.

Implying the format would be better right now if WotC had been doing this for the past 10 years.

Don't ask WotC to test for Eternal. Only thousands and thousands of combined eternal players can test for eternal. If something is oppressive it can always be banned but I don't want any one person, or even group of 10 people, to make that decision.