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Thread: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

  1. #61
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    X-0'd the local tonight, beating Grixis Pyromancer, Punishing Jund and Reanimator. I played a list using Serum Powder, Shifting Wall, Phyrexian Marauder and Balustrade Spy.

    It was actually pretty fun. Serum Powder augmented some slower hands and gave me a double-Street Wraith start against Jund in the face of Deathrite Shaman. Against Reanimator a Powder gave me a Faerie Macabre start, which turned out to be a blowout. I also made a boatload of tokens with the robots, which was completely relevant.

    The highlight of the evening was Dread Returning a Street Wraith to get around a gummed-up board state in round one with Swampwalk sealing the deal.

    I just like Manaless's style. It's non-interactive and does some degenerate things without folding to conditional counters or tempo cards like LED Dredge does. That's really it.
    Hi michael! Would you share the list with X-robots and powders?
    I'm really interested in testing it. After 8 years of dredge playing, ledless, ledwith, next level, green manaless, fearless, quadlaser, i'm getting a bit bored and i'd really love to try somethin new and actively contribute to develope this deck. Nowadays i'm settled on blue manaless with chancellors md.

    Thanks!

  2. #62
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    X-0'd the local tonight, beating Grixis Pyromancer, Punishing Jund and Reanimator. I played a list using Serum Powder, Shifting Wall, Phyrexian Marauder and Balustrade Spy.

    It was actually pretty fun. Serum Powder augmented some slower hands and gave me a double-Street Wraith start against Jund in the face of Deathrite Shaman. Against Reanimator a Powder gave me a Faerie Macabre start, which turned out to be a blowout. I also made a boatload of tokens with the robots, which was completely relevant.

    The highlight of the evening was Dread Returning a Street Wraith to get around a gummed-up board state in round one with Swampwalk sealing the deal.

    I just like Manaless's style. It's non-interactive and does some degenerate things without folding to conditional counters or tempo cards like LED Dredge does. That's really it.
    Thanks for pushing this archetype forward, I really appreciate it.

    Regarding to your X (0) mana creatures, memnite and shield sphere ale better than your robots, even though most of the time it is absolutely irrelevant.

  3. #63
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by datanaga View Post
    Thanks for pushing this archetype forward, I really appreciate it.

    Regarding to your X (0) mana creatures, memnite and shield sphere ale better than your robots, even though most of the time it is absolutely irrelevant.
    Not Memnite though. Better use Phyrexian Walker/Ornithopter, makes for safe blocks.

  4. #64

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by datanaga View Post
    Thanks for pushing this archetype forward, I really appreciate it.

    Regarding to your X (0) mana creatures, memnite and shield sphere ale better than your robots, even though most of the time it is absolutely irrelevant.
    I disagree. Those creatures have a built-in sacrifice outlet, unlike their counterparts. That especially helps against Grafdigger's Cage, where you can drop a couple of them and make a bunch of zombies.

    They also ensure Nether Shadow's return in the event you absolutely need him the following turn with only two creatures piled above him.

  5. #65

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    I disagree. Those creatures have a built-in sacrifice outlet, unlike their counterparts. That especially helps against Grafdigger's Cage, where you can drop a couple of them and make a bunch of zombies.

    They also ensure Nether Shadow's return in the event you absolutely need him the following turn with only two creatures piled above him.
    Id also be interested seeing your list, mind sharing it with us?

  6. #66

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    You just take the standard list and replace the 8 flex cards with 8 X mana robots, it's not rocket science. It's probably the fastest list if you take into consideration it's the least disruptable via Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm if you want to goldfish.

  7. #67
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    You just take the standard list and replace the 8 flex cards with 8 X mana robots, it's not rocket science. It's probably the fastest list if you take into consideration it's the least disruptable via Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm if you want to goldfish.
    How about Serum powders? What we should cut for them?

  8. #68

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by hellhound View Post
    How about Serum powders? What we should cut for them?
    And how's the sideboard. Noxious revival might be good in conjunction with the X-creatures.

  9. #69

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Came in 9th and missed out on Top 8 due to tight breakers. I played the robot list (no Powders):

    3 Balustrade Spy
    1 Flayer of the Hatebound
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Ichorid
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Phantasmagorian
    2 Shambling Shell
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Street Wraith

    4 Phyrexian Marauder
    2 Shifting Wall

    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dread Return
    4 Gitaxian Probe

    ///
    4 Contagion
    4 Chancellor of the Annex
    3 Faerie Macabre
    2 Ashen Rider
    2 Shifting Wall

    Matchups:
    2-0 vs. Miracles
    2-0 vs. Nic Fit
    1-2 vs. Miracles
    2-0 vs. Sneak and Show
    1-2 vs. Patriot
    2-1 vs. U/R Delver

    I'll report on it tomorrow.
    Last edited by Michael Keller; 04-11-2015 at 11:18 PM.

  10. #70
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    Came in 9th and missed out on Top 8 due to tight breakers. I played the robot list (no Powders):

    3 Balustrade Spy
    1 Flayer of the Hatebound
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Ichorid
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Phantasmagorian
    2 Shambling Shell
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Street Wraith

    4 Phyrexian Marauder
    2 Shifting Wall

    4 Bridge from Below
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dread Return
    4 Gitaxian Probe

    ///
    4 Contagion
    4 Chancellor of the Annex
    3 Faerie Macabre
    2 Ashen Rider
    2 Shifting Wall

    Matchups:
    2-0 vs. Miracles
    2-0 vs. Nic Fit
    1-2 vs. Miracles
    2-0 vs. Sneak and Show
    1-2 vs. Patriot
    2-1 vs. U/R Delver

    I'll report on it tomorrow.
    so with this list you'll just scoop to leyline of the void or a resolved rest in peace right? i think it's totally fine if that's the case, i'm just wondering if you're gambling on it or aware of your meta.

    -rob
    -rob

  11. #71

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    so with this list you'll just scoop to leyline of the void or a resolved rest in peace right? i think it's totally fine if that's the case, i'm just wondering if you're gambling on it or aware of your meta.

    -rob
    It's all in. That is correct.

    EDIT: Notes from the event...

    1. I did not run into Grafdigger's Cage or Rest in Peace once in this event. My two losses were actually to Containment Priest. In the match-up against Patriot, I was prepared for it and in game two I got around a Relic and killed one Containment Priest with Contagion. However, the second was too much. The third game of that round was an epic confrontation that saw me survive triple Surgical on Shadows, Bridges and Ichorids. I was able to Dread Return a huge Troll and a Chancellor of the Annex, but his recurring Batterskull was enough to slow me down and in the end I just ran out of gas.

    2. The other round I lost to Miracles with Containment Priest, as well. I just couldn't hit my Contagion(s) after he mulled to six in game three and I had a blowout start with Phantasmagorian and double Street Wraith, only to fall victim to a Containment Priest.

    3. All other rounds were effectively decisive in their finishes. It seems like this version was actually a better call than the Force version, because apparently no one was expecting graveyard-based decks at this tournament. Contagion was huge when it needed to be, even killing two unflipped Delvers from the U/R player.

    4. The robots made some zombies here and there, but ultimately, the results were inconclusive because I never got to open with multiples. Perhaps that's on me for going with six as opposed to eight. Opening with them was cool, but they turned out rather meh.

    Right when people want to pack it in with Contagion, the card keeps paying dividends when it matters most. This event was more of a pilot for this variation of Dredge, however, I think I'll be sticking to the Force version from now on in. I just think it's too good for what it does.
    Last edited by Michael Keller; 04-13-2015 at 09:33 AM.

  12. #72

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    What do you guys think about this list:

    [4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
    [4x] Stinkweed Imp
    [4x] Golgari Thug
    [3x] Shambling Shell

    [4x] Ichorid
    [4x] Narcomoeba
    [4x] Nether Shadow
    [4x] Phantasmagorian
    [4x] Street Wraith

    [3x] Whirlpool Rider
    [1x] The Mimeoplasm
    [1x] Flayer of the Hatebound

    [4x] Bridge from Below
    [4x] Cabal Therapy
    [4x] Dread Return

    [4x] Gitaxian Probe
    [4x] Force of Will

    //Sideboard
    [4x] Disrupting Shoal
    [3x] Contagion
    [3x] Faerie Macabre
    [3x] Ashen Rider
    [2x] Vengeful Pharaoh

    So, here's what I was thinking about this list which I'm really liking:

    1. I think going with the full compliment of Forces in the main is perfectly viable, so long as we have at least sixteen blue cards in the main. We also have four Street Wraith and a draw step to find the additional blue card or Force to make it relevant. It's more of a personal choice than anything else, but I just feel the blowout capability of the card is exceptionally strong and turns useless Narcomoebas into legitimate utility. I think that just showcases the power of Force of Will, especially in a deck with no library manipulation depending on its opening hand.

    2. The Mimeoplasm seems to be reasonably strong in this iteration of Manaless for a few reasons. I like the fact first and foremost the card can be exiled to Ichorid, Contagion, Force and Shoal (which counters Force with it in hand) - while also stacking on top of Shadow. Those are huge synergies. The ability of the card in testing proved to be extremely versatile, from making a huge Troll-esque creature to the added ability of Whirlpool-Riding cards back into my library. It can also act as graveyard removal against an opponent while creating a huge threat on your side. I think it's a great catch-all slot that can win games and act as a clutch utility pitch card. I like it.

    3. Vengeful Pharaoh is a card that I think has some incredibly important value in this deck right now in Legacy. After losing two rounds at this previous tournament and clocking in at ninth on tight breakers, I lost to Containment Priest twice. Contagion clearly is a card that kill the Priest on its own, which is fine. Counters also become highly relevant in that situation, but I was looking at options that operate out of the graveyard that have some added versatility. The Pharaoh can be discarded to Phantasmagorian at instant speed to kill the Priest and allow for the recursion process to continue the following turn. It also acts as a surprise removal element against Reanimator and Sneak and Show, augmenting the Faerie Macabres and Ashen Riders.

    It's also highly innocuous while in your graveyard, even in plain site. Being able to knock off Priest is huge without interaction, and although it may cost us a Bridge or two, Contagion would do the same thing except 1.) It needs to be in our opening hand, and 2.) It can be countered. I like the surprise utility and the fact it can be exiled to Ichorid and stacks on Shadows. This is a card, however, I would never want to pitch to Contagion because hitting a Phantasmagorian against an opponent with a Priest on the table is the nut high.

    Let me know what you guys think.

  13. #73

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    1. I still dont like The Fow main. Not even one. Most decks cant never win G1 against us. I prefer other choices. I understand that my way takes more side space, but still

    2. I dont like mimeoplasm. Those synergies are cool, but the same can be said about any UB 5cmc creature. I just dont see the utility
    How con you get a Troll-esque creature? The max power in this deck is 4 (6 for phanta but i dont think I'll exile one of those often). I need to already have a rider in the gy to combo, and i might just bring that one back.

    3. Pharaoh i like. Its a new effect, uncountereable, sometimes instant Speed, doesnt cost a card and still works as fodder in the gy
    The problem is that once you use it, the cat is out, no oponent will ever attack with the priest, just in case. They actually dont need to
    I'd save it for your next big tourney as a surtirse

  14. #74

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitalca View Post
    1. I still dont like The Fow main. Not even one. Most decks cant never win G1 against us. I prefer other choices. I understand that my way takes more side space, but still
    This is a matter of preference, which I can respect. However, if you're opting to play a blue Manaless Dredge deck, it might be worth looking at older green-based lists which ran Dryad Arbor main to augment sideboard options preemptively. The same is true here in a different context, except Force of Will is far more powerful and has a wider application against the format as a whole.

    2. I dont like mimeoplasm. Those synergies are cool, but the same can be said about any UB 5cmc creature. I just dont see the utility
    How con you get a Troll-esque creature? The max power in this deck is 4 (6 for phanta but i dont think I'll exile one of those often). I need to already have a rider in the gy to combo, and i might just bring that one back.
    There are no other creatures that have the synergies this card does in this particular variation of Manaless while abusing the graveyard(s) to its advantage at the same time. The Mimeoplasm can enter the battlefield as a Golgari Grave-Troll in your graveyard, nabbing X counters based on creatures existing in your graveyard while adding more counters based on an additionally exiled creature. (This is also assuming you go that route.)

    So, if you exile a Troll from your graveyard and a Griselbrand in an opponent's graveyard, assuming a Troll would enter the battlefield as, say, a 12/12 (counting itself), it would then become a 19/19 with seven additional +1/+1 counters based on the exiled Griselbrand's power - which is seven.

    Or you could just make The Mimeoplasm a Griselbrand and win on the spot, no matter its P/T.

    3. Pharaoh i like. Its a new effect, uncountereable, sometimes instant Speed, doesnt cost a card and still works as fodder in the gy
    The problem is that once you use it, the cat is out, no oponent will ever attack with the priest, just in case. They actually dont need to
    I'd save it for your next big tourney as a surtirse
    Again, a wider application against a variety of strategies. Something tells me an opponent isn't going to not ram Priest in because they think I'm playing Vengeful Pharaohs. There's virtually no reason not to attack with it to close the game out if its their only creature, which is likely if it hits the table and can attack on their turn three. In that instance, you simply don't resolve the triggers from your graveyard creatures and bin a Pharaoh from Phantasmagorian as soon as they attack. The longer the game gets dragged out, the more opportunities they have to lose from me drawing something to kill it.

    And it's not like we're playing with a set here; we're running two to augment the Contagions as a means to kill it without interaction. At some point, an opponent is going to have to attack you, otherwise you're going to draw removal naturally to kill it or play draw-go and waste time on the clock - which is in your favor in a game-two situation.

    I can see if its in the graveyard beforehand being an issue, but think about it like this - would you rather have a Pharaoh in the graveyard (or hidden in your hand and on the way to the graveyard) that can actually do something about Priest or a useless, dredged-away Contagion that does absolutely nothing? Playing both gives you another angle of attack and it seems slightly out of the realm of believability that 99.9% of your opponents won't attack you with an active creature and you with no creatures on the board playing a deck with no mana - knowing full well with the previous turn's triggers on the stack that you could have - and should have - killed the Priest using something from your hand to allow those triggers to resolve and win.

  15. #75
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I would replace Mineoplasm with Dinrova Horror. It is black, it is blue, it is a creature + it does Recoil and this might be helpfull g1 against lands or S&T decks.

  16. #76

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Domel View Post
    I would replace Mineoplasm with Dinrova Horror. It is black, it is blue, it is a creature + it does Recoil and this might be helpfull g1 against lands or S&T decks.
    In that instance, I would rather just play Ashen Rider main to eliminate the card once and for all. The Mimeoplasm has a better "finisher" capability pre-board with its weaved-in utility, and the converted mana cost of five in being able to counter Force back with Shoal is relevant in games two and three. I get the bounce can be relevant, but I wouldn't sacrifice Rider's ability main in place of a bounce card unless I was absolutely sure it was better. In this instance, I kept Rider(s) in the side and am trying The Mimeoplasm as a sixteenth blue (and black) card - but I think T.M. is just better overall.

    Dinrova Horror isn't bad, it's just not as good to me as a card that eliminates something once and for all with the ability to do so again if need be - even if it is blue.

    I used to play Faerie Macabre main to beat Lands and Reanimator, but it just seems better out of the board. I haven't run into those decks recently too much so I'm not overly concerned.

    Most Show and Tell decks have a hard time dealing with discard, which this deck can do with multiple Therapy. The Ashen Riders also come in out of the board in the match-up, which isn't honestly all that bad game one. If an opponent decides to ram Emrakul in and you've got multiple Bridges in play, you can always crack back or combo out the following turn for the win. I did that this past weekend when my opponent decided to Show and Tell into Emrakul and me into something else. He attacked, annihilated and I made six zombies. I was then able to recur multiple Ichorids - hit a Narcomoeba for good measure - and killed him with Flayer after attacking him out first.

  17. #77

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Multiple instant Pharaohs (through SW or Phanty) are crazy against Thalia's decks as Thalia has first strike and after taking two from her we can kill attacking hatebears that haven't dealt damage to us. It's a metagame (full of creatures) card, but it's really good.
    Searched for a 5-mana UB creature instead of TM and the only comparable one is Child of Alara. But Child is a control card, not a kill now card.
    I should mention that with 2 Flayers 1 TM we need just a single DR to deal 21 damage to opponent.

  18. #78
    The crazy nastyass honey badger

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I'm not sure on the Mimeoplasm yet, but the Pharaoh is replacing the 4 Contagion in my SB. I'm ordering them as we speak. Triggered abilities from the 'yard to kill stuff? Suck on that, counterspells! Sure, it isn't an end-all solve-all but it does circumvent one of the problems one runs into with Contagion. Too bad it won't be hitting DRS, though.

    Concerning the Robots build, I conjured up the following list:
    [4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
    [4x] Stinkweed Imp
    [4x] Golgari Thug
    [3x] Shambling Shell
    [1x] Progenitus

    [4x] Ichorid
    [4x] Narcomoeba
    [4x] Nether Shadow
    [4x] Phantasmagorian

    [3x] Balustrady Spy
    [1x] Flayer of the Hatebound

    [4x] Bridge from Below
    [4x] Cabal Therapy
    [4x] Dread Return

    [4x] Ornithopter
    [4x] Phyrexian Walker
    [4x] Shield Sphere

    If we want to rely on our robots we need to make sure we're likely to have one or more of them so this list replaces all flex slots and speedy cards with 0 cmc creatures that are inable to kill opposing creatures. Having 12 of those means you have a 19% chance of not having one in your opening 7, 38% chance of having exactly 1, 29% for exactly 2 and roughly 14% of having 3+. The idea behind this is pretty obvious, I think. It allows for a lot of explosiveness, even without Bridge from Below.

    I have yet to test the list myself, but goldfishing with some proxies have made me quite optimistic. I'm also not sure if it's better than any of the other builds, but it is fun as hell.
    Last edited by Echelon; 04-15-2015 at 03:57 AM.

  19. #79

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I don't know if I'd run a full set of Vengeful Pharaoh. I think the surprise element of the card is what makes it so good in conjunction with Contagion. Although, if your opponent attacks with Containment Priest or another troublesome creature from Sneak and Show or Reanimator and you can bin it...


  20. #80

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    1. I think going with the full compliment of Forces in the main is perfectly viable, so long as we have at least sixteen blue cards in the main.

    2. The Mimeoplasm seems to be reasonably strong in this iteration of Manaless for a few reasons. .... I like it.

    3. Vengeful Pharaoh is a card that I think has some incredibly important value in this deck right now in Legacy...
    1. Force = yes. I haven't been running Manaless for some time, but I can't see myself running anything but the blue version after running it exclusively for about 3 months. It's just the most likely version to win post-board in my mind, but I don't think it's as good in game1 compared to a fearless approach.
    Going the full 4 Force is definitely worth it IMO.

    2. I'm sure about this one. My main concern here isn't synergy, but lack of killing effectively.
    Given we'll always have Rider/Spy/Griselbrand;
    Compared to Flayer, Mimeoplasm doesn't match up very well, as Flayer can win right there on our combo turn.
    The graveyard removal isn't at instant speed, so it may not be super effective when we really need it.
    I'm guessing this card is gonna be discard/exile fodder in effect > for me I'm not sure this card is massively better than running a generic UB card for all the exile effects with a marginal benefit like Magister Sphinx, Phenax, God of Destruction, Ruthless Deathfang etc etc.
    Feel free to prove me wrong, but I'm thinking that mainboard space is pretty tight already.

    3. I tested out Vengeful Pharoah a while back before Priest. It wasn't lacklustre, but it wasn't great either due to it's lack of synergy with Bridges.
    I had quite a few games where I had Pharoah in the yard, where I had opponents attack me repeatedly to kill your bridges turn after turn, making your chances of hitting a bridge and keeping it long enough to combo out very difficult.
    Goblins, a deck we really shouldn't lose to often, managed to do this to me effectively. Poor SB choice you say, I WAS testing it I say. LOL.
    My end thought was to cut it and never look at it again. That said, now that Priest is a thing I'll give it another look as a SB option.

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