Where are you currently with the sideboard? I know you said you weren't a fan of the Cliques, but I have personally loved them for my control and combo matchups. I also still like having the Jace backup plan.
Is anyone else going to make it the SCG Open in Columbus on January 6? Hopefully I can replicate Dan and Alix's results with the deck...
Here is Tom Martell's list from CFB
Main Deck
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tombstalker
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
1 Darkblast
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Spell Pierce
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Submerge
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Diabolic Edict
http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...-legacy-event/
Looks like main board he dropped an Abrupt Decay, snuff out/dismember, and a tombstalker for 1 IoK and 2 Thoughtseize.
@ Nitewolf: I did the same thing. I also switched to Dismember over Snuff Out and added a Dread of Night in the Nihil Spellbomb slot in the sideboard. I figured the 4th Deathrite helped out against gy mus, and Lingering Souls tokens were giving me headaches.
Did you know Deathrite's first ability is not a mana ability (ie can be stopped by Pithing Needle)?
From gatherer:
10/1/2012 Because the first ability requires a target, it is not a mana ability. It uses the stack and can be responded to.
10/1/2012 If the target of any of Deathrite Shaman’s three abilities is an illegal target when that ability tries to resolve, it will be countered and none of its effects will happen. You won’t add mana to your mana pool, no opponent will lose life, or you won’t gain life, as appropriate.
I learned something new last night. Vs. the Turbo Eldrazi mu he had Needle on Deathrite and Crucible of Worlds in play plus Glacial Chasm. I thought I could eat the Glimmerpost he kept recurring, but nope.
Interesting, I played TomM and Lewis Laskin a few nights ago on MTGO and they were both rocking the 4-color lists. I guess maybe they decided on BUG or are rocking multiple lists or are keeping the 4-color Deathrite lists under wraps.
I took some notes and their lists are different than the one that won the Berlin tourney - they were running Jace, Liliana, KotR, and SFM plus Wasteland, Bayou, Savannah, Scrubland, Tropical Island, UGS, and Tundra (more robust mana + probably more lands than the 19 the German list ran).
I'm in the middle of finals week, but I'll work on starting a new thread for the 4-color lists. If somebody else wants to do it, I'm happy to contribute.
This is the BUG aggro/ tempo forum.
4x Delver of Secrets is a must for this deck right now.
If you want to cut Delver and play Planeswalkers in its place then please go to the Team America (Midrange/Control Thread) form.
I really hope this ends the whole should Delver be in this particular deck!
Every single tempo/ aggro BUG strategy that has made any noise at any major tourney/ event has played Delver so again, if you don't like them it is so easy to go to the midrange and control BUG thread.
To be the man, you gotta beat the man!
Most likely yes, but I dislike your rigid adherence to tradition. Innovation and adjusting slots is important towards moving a deck forward. It wasn't that long ago that people completely dismissed the possibility of adding Deathrite Shaman to the deck, and now it seems like pretty much everyone is on-board for its inclusion as a 4-of.Originally Posted by Demonic_Attorney
I'd also remind you that the original incarnation of the deck only played 4 Tarmogoyf and 4 Tombstalker and did just fine (granted, this was back before Delver was printed...)
Slaying sacred cows and trying out new options is the way to keep a deck competitive. This archetype has remained competitive through the years because of this -- Sinkhole, Stifle, Snuff Out, Spell Pierce, etc... all at one time were considered essential components for a BUG tempo strategy, and yet have either been replaced entirely or reduced in number over time. Delver may be good now, but it wouldn't shock me if another card took its place or if metagame considerations made it sub-optimal. We are, after all, going to be getting Dimir and Simic cards in the next set. Perhaps one of those guilds will have another bomb utility creature like Shaman that can compete for Delver's slot.
Hence what I precisely stated; right now!
Speculating what a new set may or may not bring is never fruitful (especially without a spoiler) in assessing and selecting viable cards for playing this deck right now. Right now the new set and cards have not come out and the present metagame considerations have not made Delver even remotely sub-optimal for any blue based tempo aggro deck.
I applaud your for wanting to explore new options and I do not impugn you for doing same; however, when those replacement options are Planeswalkers and/ or other control type cards that do not adequately constitute as a viable and suitable replacement to Delver like which has constantly been coming up on this forum recently, it is getting repetitive and redundant. Simpy put, I cannot over emphasize how much that Delver of Secrets belongs in BUG Tempo/ Aggro right now!
To be the man, you gotta beat the man!
Absolutely agree. Right now a blue tempo deck with Delver seems very very suboptimal and shouldnt be called a tempo deck anymore. I see Delver as the only constant to differentiate between tempo and midrange/control. With people "mixing up strategies/cards" on the scale of "pure tempo" to "creatureless control" Delver should be the clear indication of what the primary gameplan is.
Also Tcdecks starts to differentiate now between Team America and BUG control, but they do it in a pretty messy way leaving tons of non delver lists in Team America. Could you guys maye also write to TCdecks that Delver = tempo aka Team America and the rest is BUG control? http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/contact.php
Currently playing: Elves
I've been playing the Deathrite/Tombstalker version of the deck and have really been enjoying it, my list is pretty similar to the one going round recently, the main difference being that I sideboard Jace Beleren rather than Mindsculptor. I feel like that against control siding in JtM is incorrect, mostly because actual control/dedicated mid-range decks are better at being 'Jace decks' than this one. It's like you are side boarding to 'go bigger' than them but they are definitely the control deck in the matchup and we should rather focus on more aggressive plays, which is why I like Beleren.
You rarely want to have 4 mana and would much rather shuffle extra lands/Wasteland them. Also, in the mirror where 'going bigger' is a good strategy, 4 mana is even more of a problem. Between Wasteland (that often comes with a Loam package post board against BUG/RUG), Stifle, Daze Pierce etc, actually resolving the card is more trouble than it's worth. You do lose the option of using Jace as a win condition but I think he is a poor win condition in this deck anyway, as he dilutes the main focus of the deck, which is to play efficient threats backed up by disruption. Another trade off is that you can't Sideboard Beleren in Show and Tell matchups to bounce Emrakul but I think that's okay as those decks are on the decline.
Thoughts?
So, I'm assuming you are using Jace to only -1 and draw yourself a card, and potentially pre-empt or destroy a Jace TMS against control.
The problem I see with this is that it's an incredibly narrow card, that really is only going to come in against your control matchups. Compared to Jace TMS, which is also going to come in there, as well as against midrange aggro and some forms of combo (it's not like Abrupt Decay is going to do anything against Show and Tell..)
As a card advantage engine, I think it's inferior to more copies of Sylvan Library or even Phyrexian Arena. I know it has a few advantages over these options, but I'm not sold on Beleren being worth the copy here. Big Jace does so much more than just drawing cards that the extra mana is well worth it, even at the risk of running into a Spell Pierce.
Also, Spell Pierce is a non-factor anyways. It's not like you're going to cast little Jace with 5 mana on the board, right?
Last edited by wcm8; 12-13-2012 at 10:08 AM.
I've been doing some pretty intense testing and am keeping records and notes on my matchups. Once I accumulate another week or two of results I will post about my findings and thoughts. So far, the maindeck seems pretty solid, but I'm tempted to add another Sylvan Library or two -- this card has been amazing in almost every single game I've had it. The sideboard I have seems alright, though there are about 3 slots that I'm kinda iffy on... keeping it all the same for now but may need to overhaul some things. For now though, Vendilion Clique has really been pullings its weight and I don't think I'll cut it.
I'm not entirely sold on Hymn. I like the card sometimes, but there are other times when I really wished it were Thoughtseize, Stifle, or Spell Pierce instead. I think it is completely reasonable to change this slot, as back-breaking as a second turn Hymn can be.
So far there have only been two matchups that are giving me fits: Pox and Nic Fit. Pox is understandable since it is mostly immune to Wasteland and has a ton of removal, so I'm not sure if this matchup can be improved without reconfiguring the deck significantly. I will say that Shaman has made this matchup a lot more reasonable. Landing a Jace is the best thing you can in the sideboard games, but it's sometimes tough to do that if they draw into Wastelands and Smallpox.
Nic Fit seems like it's a deck built to beat tempo, so this might just be one of those near-impossible matchups. With RUG, at least you could Stifle their Explorer or Deed triggers, and Submerge out of the board was mega-helpful. But BUG seems to struggle a bit more, and now that deck can win out of nowhere thanks to that stupid Scapeshift combo with Valakut. I played a few games against this, and I was able to win a few by countering their explorers and wasting their first few land drops. I guess Hymn is pretty good here, but it's definitely not a great matchup.
Otherwise, this deck has been crushing left and right, and actually seems favored against the 'mirrors' -- I either 2-0'd or 2-1'd against both the Thresh version with Confidants, and against the midrange BUG control version. Having more (and bigger) threats goes a lonnnng way in these matchups. Tombstalker is consistently amazing, especially when they lean so hard on Abrupt Decays of their own.
Thanks for the update.
I agree with your observations.
Where do you do your testing?
Cockatrice is the program I use for testing online. I have a local playgroup, but we only get the opportunity to test periodically.
Good lord am I wordy. That whole post read like someone on an adderall bender. I'll try to keep it more concise...
Jammed the 4c list in back-to-back locals (yeah, Akron area rocks, be jealous...) Wednesday & Thursday. Just went with the 75, since I wanted to pick up on playstyle more than anything else and understand card decisions. Tried to be open-minded about Jasper Grimmer's build. Some notes:
First of all, some quick results. Both locals were four rounds each, with me going 3-1 in each.
2-1 Merfolk, 2-0 Belcher, 1-2 BUG Midrange, 2-0 UW Miracles
1-2 UG Enchantress, 2-0 Bant Midrange, 2-0 Jund, 2-1 Goblins
Vapor Snag: I used Water_Wizard's analysis on Vapor Snag to justify it, but I don't feel like it's where the deck wants to be. I found myself leaning more on discard + the full set of STP's postboard against the decks where Vapor Snag is reasonable to leave in. I pretty much boarded it out every time. While true that you want blue cards to pitch to Force of Will, in most of the decks where you want to be using Vapor Snag, you probably don't want Force of Will (with the exception of decks that cheap a fatty into play).
Geist: Same as it was last Standard season in UW Delver. Super weak against a horde of creatures, which makes it hard to push through damage. That said, casting him on turn 2 (which I did a couple of times) was pretty insane. This card might need more time to figure out and understand his role in the deck.
Lingering Souls: Bonkers. I wanted it against BUG. I wanted it against Bant. I brought it in for a pile of matchups. In conjunction with Jitte in the sideboard, that 4-card package seemed very reasonable, giving you a constant stream of guys to take advantage of equipment.
Delver: Most of you know how I feel about this card. Still not a fan with more Decays running around, but fits into the shell of the deck.
This is what I'll be using next week:
Lands (19)
10 Blue Fetches
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
Creatures (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Geist of Saint Traft
Spells (26)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder
Sideboard (15)
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
3 Lingering Souls
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Envelop
3 Flex Slots
I cut the two Vapor Snags to round out the playset of Daze and to add the 2nd Swords to Plowshares in the maindeck. For the sideboard, I never really found myself boarding in the extra Thoughtseize. They are probably fine against Control but you also want to put pressure on it you can. So -2 Thoughtseize, -1 Swords to Plowshares, +3 Flex Slots. They might become Engineered Plagues, or I was also thinking about cutting the Cavern and the EE for 4 Stoneforge Mystic and a Batterskull. Dunno, tons of time to tweak and test. Has anyone else been playing this deck?
Delver enthusiast and avid practitioner of blind flipsmanship.
Follow me on Twitter: @AllSunsDawn
@ Mark.
Thanks for the update. I played against Goblins on MTGO and won in 3. I also played some games earlier in the week that escape me. I still haven't figured out why that Cavern is in the sb, though. I'm also not sold on Daze because we don't have any form of a mana denial package. Sure, it's nice to protect a turn-1 Deathrite, but without Wasteland and Stifle, Daze becomes such a liability later on in the game.
Personally, I like the Vapor Snags. The -1 life has become relevant a few times. I'm also considering broadening the mana base to include a Bayou and either a Savannah or a Scrubland.
I'm planning to open a separate thread in Established decks on Saturday. I have two finals today, so that's been bogging me down. Once I open the thread, I'll post here and port over the relevant comments.
Here's a deck that posted 2nd in the Finnish nationals: http://poromagia.com/index.php?page=...&articleid=116 It's basically Esper with Deathrites and an Abrupt Decay in the board, but it's still worth a look.
I liked Ricky Sidher's comment from SCG Las Vegas regarding Deathrite, "It's like a one-mana planeswalker in Legacy."
EDIT: vs. Goblins I sided (using the original list) -3 Daze, -4 FOW, -4 Geist, +3 STP, +3 L. Souls, +1 Jitte, +1 EE, +2 Thoughtseize, +1 Cavern.
I found we have plenty of turn 1 answers to a resolved Lackey and Abrupt Decay can hit an Aether Vial. Daze and FOW are near useless with Cavern of Souls and no Wastelands (I think Cavern should be legendary). As you mentioned, Geist is no good attacking into a horde. I'm still questioning this card as a 4-of. In which match-ups does it really shine? UW runs Terminus, most other decks either have creatures or Geist is too slow. Perhaps it is good vs. BUG tempo? I brought in the Cavern to help combat Wasteland/Port. I was happy with the Thoughtseizes as Goblins tends to hold cards in hand and I will gladly pay 2 life to discard a Ringleader, Matron, or a Pyrokenisis. I gained life from Deathrite a few times which allowed me to use Sylvan activations 2 times. Those extra two cards may have been the difference in the game.
Let's talk about Tempo, or the difference in playstyle of Canadian and American thresh.
I believe that Hymn to Tourach is the biggest difference between the two decks and dictates the rest of the deck construction. To support the BB sorcery, TA runs 20 lands and plays some number of the tertiary dual land. Since it's already invested in a slightly more robust mana base, it plays a few 'bigger' spells and has an alternative sideboard plan option thanks to its Black options. Compare this to RUG, which only needs one land in play to continue operating, and does not typically deviate from the aggressor role even in sideboard games. RUG's ideal plan is to land a threat and protect it along the way, and use burn to eventually finish the job if needed. BUG instead typically lands a threat or two and gradually runs their opponent out of answers via Hymn, and then plays a better topdeck war thanks to all of the cantrips.
When Hymn is good, BUG is better, hands down. When Hymn is bad (and there are definitely times when this is the case), RUG seems to take the cake as the tempo deck to play. I don't like to make absolute statements, but I have found that if you are planning on cutting Hymn for another option you might as well just play RUG.
There was a quote I remember reading in the RUG thread which said that RUG's play is a bit like a sports car: extremely fast, but will completely derail if it hits a 'brick wall' (via something like an un-opposed big threat or 'answer' card such as Rest in Peace or Relic of Progenitus). Comparitively, BUG tempo is more like a Mack truck: slower to get going, but once on its way can wreck through that brick wall if needed.
With Deathrite Shaman now everywhere, I think tempo decks will need to adapt to better answer this card. I think RUG should strongly consider upping its maindeck removal count to 8, perhaps with the entire playset of Forked Bolt to help answer Shaman and the seemingly ubiquitous Lingering Souls. (Seriously... I lost to a 'Haunted Zoo' deck last night that splashed black for Shaman AND Souls... what is the world coming to?) With BUG, I'm not entirely sure what it can do maindeck... Lingering Souls is definitely a problem card for the deck since it 'dodges' Hymn and can effectively gain upwards of 20 life and protect a Jace. The sideboard definitely needs some answers to the card.
I think comparing Team America to BUG Midrange/Control decks is missing the point, since although these decks play many of the same cards, they both support a completely different gameplan and strategic goal. You might as well compare the deck to Esper Blade, which actually has more in common with TA's bigger cousins. However, RUG and BUG are like brother decks, since the two are both hoping to exploit similar metagames.
Hi all, I just wanted to chime in about the 4c list. I saw it posted here and took it to a local gpt where top 8 got duals. I played zero games with the deck before hand and with that, the only change I made to the deck was 3 m. mage in the board for the turbo eldrazi decks that get played here with the hope to slow them down. 40 people showed up, so 6 rounds cut to top 8. Btw it started at 7pm on Tues, I didn't get home til 330am. I played vs:
Rd 1 turbo eldrazi 0-2 (so much for mages)
Rd 2 aggro loam 2-0
Rd 3 dredge 2-0
Rd 4 combo elves 1-0 (we each got a game loss during random deck checks)
Rd 5 uw rest in pieces 2-0
Rd 6 ID
Top 8 vs turbo eldrazi again 2-0 (he drew poorly and discard helped A LOT)
Top 4 split (my buddy wanted to the byes and I can't go to the gp anyways)
All in all, the deck is super fun, seems really good, tho I didn't play vs bug or rug. I only lost 2 games all day and that was to a deck I knew would give me trouble since I don't have wastes. I like cutting the 2 snags for stp and something else.
Extirpate is your answer to Lingering Souls. Why did Hatfield lose in the top eight to Dredge recently? In short, by not having Extirpate and/ or Surgical Extraction in his sideboard. Shaman doesn’t answer Bridge from Below and taking out a RUG player's Tropical Island early auto wins the RUG matchup.
Adding another Library if your particular metagame has a lot of control (i.e. Stoneblade, Miracles, etc.) that is sound strategy. With respect, adding two more Sylvan Library and playing three in total is not prudent and is conspicuously too many by any objective means especially with four Brainstorm and four Ponder.
See, against Pox and decks with mass removal spells Nimble Mongoose is just so good. There is no reason why you can’t play Stifle if you want to if your metagame demands it. For example, against Nic Fit Stifle is a house. Tombstalker is not what you think it is in the mirror; A Submerged Tombstalker is absolutely devastating and if that isn't tempo I don’t know what is!
To be the man, you gotta beat the man!
I opened up a thread for 4-Color Deathrite Shaman under Established Decks.
It's still a little messy, but I'll clean it up in the morning.
I ported over a number of the previous comments from this thread as quotes, but I'll probably try to paraphrase them into shorter paragraphs in the morning.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...518#post691518
I tested Nitewolf's list yesterday in between rounds at a Modern 1k (-1 Tombstalker, -1 Snuff Out, +1 Dismember, +1 Deathrite). I kept feeling that the list is just missing something. Deathrite Shaman was really good, as was Hymn, but Delver felt pretty terrible. However all of the replacements for Delver seem pretty lackluster. I can't put my finger on it, but the deck needs something I just don't know what exactly that is. It seems like most of the BUG lists that did well at the invitational were much closer to the control end of the spectrum. I would love to find a good BUG Delver list but I just don't know if the cards/synergy can be fit into a single deck.
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