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Thread: UW Sagas

  1. #21
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    Re: UW Sagas

    Parallax Tide has synergies with...

    Estrid's Invocation: Keep the original Tide on full counters. Copy it with Estrid. Exile up to 5 lands with the copy. On the upkeep when Estrid will fade away, stack the upkeep triggers with Estrid on top. Blink Estrid first (lands return) and have it return copying Parallax Tide. Exile 5 lands again. This basically keeps 5 lands off the board for 5 turns (until the original Tide is gone). Even better if you get a 2nd Estrid involved.

    Riptide Chimera: Exile up to 5 lands. On your upkeep, both triggers go on the stack. Bounce Parallax first. The lands return, but then you can replay Parallax and remove the lands again. Unfortunately this costs 2UU every turn so it's awkward.

    Auratog/Phantatog/Seal of Cleansing: Stack 5 exile abilities. In response, sacrifice Parallax Tide to the Atog. Lands are exiled permanently. The "Oblivion Ring" trick works with this old templating.

    Propaganda/Sphere of Safety: Opponent can't attack you if they can't generate 2 mana on main phase.

    Chalice/Spheres: Opponent has a hard time beating resistors without lands

    Replenish: Reuse Parallax enchantments like the old Standard deck

    3cc Teferi: Completes the soft lock by stopping instant tricks in the window between. -3 to reset a Parallax on 0 counters.

    This deck could really break Parallax Tide. Parallax Wave is decent too, maybe 4 Tide + 2 Wave main?

  2. #22

    Re: UW Sagas

    We talked a bit about Opal-Wave a moment ago, here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l-GW-Opal-Wave
    But that was before Estrid's Invocation. Maybe there is something here.

  3. #23
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    Re: UW Sagas

    Quote Originally Posted by aedemiel View Post
    We talked a bit about Opal-Wave a moment ago, here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l-GW-Opal-Wave
    But that was before Estrid's Invocation. Maybe there is something here.
    Does Opal-Wave work again? When it was in Standard, they power-errata'd it hard so you needed 2 Waves

    That deck is interesting but seems like an underpowered version of Enchantress. What about a UW stompy shell with both Parallaxes and Estrid's Invocation? Blue also gives the UW Teferi to complete the lock. Dual-colored stompy is also easier now with Prismatic Vista to help fix basics.

    LOL Parallax Tide even has a back-up function to save your City of Traitors before you play a land.



    //Lands: 20
    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 City of Traitors
    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Prismatic Vista
    2 Tundra
    2 Island
    2 Plains
    1 Serra's Sanctum

    //Artifacts: 11
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Chalice of the Void
    3 Trinisphere

    //Enchantments: 25
    2 Seal of Cleansing
    2 Spreading Seas
    4 Estrid's Invocation
    3 Oblivion Ring
    2 Propaganda
    4 Parallax Tide
    3 Parallax Wave
    3 Opalescence
    2 Trial of Knowledge

    //Planeswalkers: 2
    2 Teferi, Time Raveler

    //Spells: 2
    2 Replenish

    //Sideboard: 15
    3 Eidolon of Rhetoric
    4 Rest in Peace
    2 Helm of Obedience
    2 Ghostly Prison
    1 Stony Silence
    1 Seal of Cleansing
    1 Engineered Explosives
    2 Phyrexian Revoker


    Probably too durdly and inconsistent. The one nice thing about the GW version is the early draw engine in Enchantress' Presence and Sylvan Library.

    Some cute interactions:
    Spreading Seas - draws cards with Estrid blink. can be used on yourself to avoid Ancient Tomb/City suicide. You can keep the original on your own land, put the Estrid copy on theirs, and then blink Estrid off it when you're ready to Tide away lands.

    Seal + Parallax = exile 5 things permanently

    Opal + Wave = permanently exile creatures at will

    Opal + Wave + Tide = permanently exile creatures and lands at will, aka Win the Game

    Trial + Estrid = draw many cards

    Tide + Estrid = landlock opponent for many turns

    Teferi + Tide + Estrid = Opponent cannot play Magic. Exile 5 lands looping the Tide copy. Opponent can't cast spells in between. Use Teferi to bounce and replay the original Tide to save it from fading.
    Last edited by FTW; 09-11-2019 at 08:33 PM.

  4. #24

    Re: UW Sagas

    I liked the look of the GW-wave deck in the youtube videos that were posted, that deck made very good use of Kruphix's Insight.
    That deck felt much more like a combo deck that was trying to ramp up with Wild Growth/Serra's Sanctum, not a control/prison deck, because with the combo online it's near-impossible for fair decks to beat the pairing of Opal/Wave.
    It also randomly hoses some of the combo decks like SNT and Depths.
    I'm sceptical that Parallax Tide is a playable card in legacy though because 4 mana is a lot for something that doesn't win the game or do anything when you're behind on the board. At least by itself PWave can keep a Dreadhorde Arcanist exiled for a few turns while you try to dig for Opalescence.

    I think the GW opalwave version has the problem that you are a dog to combo (especially reanimator and storm) but it can probably be tuned to be a kind of 'fair deck killer'. Relying on the combo of x2 4-drops to help stabilize against Delver is always going to be suspect though, even if you do have stuff like Serra's Sanctum or Replenish or Carpet of Flowers to try and power through disruption.

    This UW Opal with chalice and stuff has the problem that you are just a stompy shell with the typical near-zero library manipulation but all of your threats are weird multi-card pairings rather than stuff that's high-impact on its own like Chandra or Rabblemaster etc.

  5. #25

    Re: UW Sagas

    Bump
    Some more testing:
    I think the Enlightened Tutors need to be moved to the SB, as the card disadvantage is probably too much of a liability vs fair decks
    At least 2 Porphyry Nodes in the main seems correct

    So from the list on the first page
    -1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
    -1 Council's Judgment
    +2 Porphyry Nodes
    -2 Enlightened Tutor
    +2 Something

    A third nodes is possible.
    Other options would be some kind of Predict-esque enchantment for the Replenish synergy but there aren't great options available.
    Font of Fortunes is 'fine' but costs a lot of mana, Ior Ruin Expedition is similar and probably slightly worse. Compulsion is an interesting way to churn through the deck but again costs a lot of mana. A 2nd Dovin's Acuity doesn't seem awful either. That card has impressed me a lot and has much better synergy with Estrids Invocation than these 2-cmc options.

    I am unsure if I want to add a 2nd Cast Out or cut the first one. Without maindeck ETutor you lose the utility of being able to Tutor for a cmc4 for CB but it gives a nice kicker for Replenish for little opportunity cost.

    Edit: maybe the extra card advantage slot can be 1 Azcanta. It doesn't combo with Invocation or B2B but otherwise it seems ok.
    It can set up Replenish by milling enchantments into the graveyard and if it flips and they waste it you can still Replenish it back
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 10-07-2019 at 01:16 AM.

  6. #26
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    Re: UW Sagas

    Is Deafening Silence worth building around? You have so much card advantage with the Sagas that it seems very powerful, and a way to slow the game down (in most matchups) so your inevitability can take over.
    Brainstorm Realist

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  7. #27

    Re: UW Sagas

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Is Deafening Silence worth building around? You have so much card advantage with the Sagas that it seems very powerful, and a way to slow the game down (in most matchups) so your inevitability can take over.
    In most matchups I don't think it slows the game down in a meaningful way (or at least in such a way that it doesn't compensate for the card you spent on it).
    Like any player can just go turn 1 delver turn 2 ponder leave up pierce mana or turn 2 tarmo with daze backup and not be affected by this at all, it just doesn't do enough against fair decks.
    You can get CA from the sagas but you have to survive first and I don't think this helps enough.

  8. #28
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    Re: UW Sagas

    Yeah, I thought it was just like Canonist where it was only one non-artifact spell. It's worse than useless in most cases due to it being non-creature. Decks can now drop their dudes and still have Force/Daze/Pierce up for your removal spell because you can only cast one. Sideboard card only.
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  9. #29
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    Re: UW Sagas

    Azcanta seems like a good choice for that last slot. Even if it doesn't "combo" with your other pieces, it helps compensate for the loss of card selection by cutting tutors.

  10. #30

    Re: UW Sagas

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Yeah, I thought it was just like Canonist where it was only one non-artifact spell. It's worse than useless in most cases due to it being non-creature. Decks can now drop their dudes and still have Force/Daze/Pierce up for your removal spell because you can only cast one. Sideboard card only.
    Canonist might still be better anyway because tutor can still find it and it can also attack
    Depends how many hate pieces I have room for I guess

    Edit: Some more testing yesterday, a few games against my friend's blue-soup 4c control deck

    Was ok/competitive
    I played with the suggestions mentioned above (3 Porphyry Nodes and 1 Azcanta)
    Sometimes it felt like it was drawing too much removal but that's probably just the nature of the matchup we were playing, this deck with 4 Plow and 3 Nodes shouldn't really be any different to Miracles in that regard with 4 Plow and 3-4 Terminus and you probably want to max out on all of that to beat Delver decks.

    I went off with the 3rd stage of Mirari's Conjecture as well and chained like 5 cantrips in 1 turn.

    The Azcanta seems like a really good choice.

    I think I like most of the deck:
    20 Lands
    UW Core (Brainstorm Ponder FOW Plow)
    4 History 4 Spreading Seas 3 Invocation 1 Acuity
    2 cb
    1 Azcanta 1 Mirari 1 Dsphere
    2 Replenish
    And then at least 2 nodes is probably correct.

    So the remaining 3 questionable slots are the 3rd nodes, the cast out, and the soothsaying.

    I'm tempted to keep the 3rd Nodes for now until I can test the Delver matchup more.
    The Soothsaying seems so 'free' to play but maybe it's just a bad card or at least not good enough to spend 1 card on.
    Cast Out still seems pretty borderline/underwhelming and maybe it should be a Font of Fortune or something else (2nd Azcanta maybe, or CJ or a 3rd CB, or maybe just a Preordain).
    Will start mapping out the SB soon, need to narrow down which tutor bullets I want to play.
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 10-09-2019 at 12:12 AM.

  11. #31

    Re: UW Sagas

    update:

    List is now
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Porphyry Nodes
    4 Spreading Seas
    2 Font of Fortunes
    2 Counterbalance
    1 Search for Azcanta
    4 History of Benalia
    3 Estrid's Invocation
    1 Dovin's Acuity
    1 Detention Sphere
    2 Replenish
    4 Force of Will
    1 The Mirari Conjecture
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Prismatic Vista
    1 Scalding Tarn
    1 Tundra
    5 Plains
    5 Island

    Sideboard
    2 Seal of Cleansing
    2 Enlightened Tutor
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Humility
    1 Dawn of Hope
    1 Back to Basics
    1 Ethersworn Canonist / Deafening Silence / Anti-Combo tutor target
    6 Flusterstorm/Hydroblast/Veto/Surgical/Force of Negation/Cpriest

    Thoughts:
    I cut Soothsaying because it seemed like if I was going to spend that much mana on it I would rather spend the mana into Font of Fortunes and just draw the cards. Having to spend 3 mana to look at 3 rather than 1 like with Top is a big difference. Soothsaying is probably better in the super lategame (especially with CB) but this is more of a tap-out deck (lack of Snapcasters etc) so it's less likely the deck will have mana open anyway. Font of Fortune is also a better Replenish enabler than Soothsaying

    For the SB I think thats probably about the maximum deck can afford to get away with in terms of tutor targets.

    Other Miracles/UW decks are already playing 6-7 cheap counters in the SB (with Snapcasters main to go with them) and they usually have Pierce main as well, in combo matchups I am hoping that Enlightened Tutor can do some of the work but against decks like Delver it's probably too punishing to try to resolve E-tutor, and necessary to have cards like Hydroblast, Fluster to fight over early Wrenns and Stifles and such.

    I think the best generic anti-combo tutor option is Canonist. You can turn 1 tutor turn 2 canonist which stops storm from winning until they get rid of it, makes your counters much stronger against SNT, hinders the opponent's ability to cantrip out of it, and puts 2 power on the board

    - Deafening Silence is similar but I think the fact that canonist can attack is too much of an upside. Being an enchantment is not exciting because you can't Replenish it back if they kill it the turn they go off and it doesn't do anything if you copy it
    - Zur's Weirding is a super spicy option but for it to be lights out you need to have a better board and a better hand, in which case you're probably already winning anyway. (If you cast it on an even board then you end up in this weird cat-and-mouse game which might not favour you because your deck isn't very threat-dense, and even if you have some Knights it effectively says to your opponent "try to win right now" so you still need a way to stop them from doing that in case they have it. E.g. they had the combo in hand already but didn't go for it yet because they were looking for Duress/Boseiju).
    - Trinisphere and Aegis of the Gods aren't good against SNT,
    - CPriest isn't tutorable and does nothing vs Storm.
    - Spirit of the Labyrinth and In the Eye of Chaos are out because the effect is symmetrical.
    - Decree of Silence is powerful but costs too much mana.
    - Induced Amnesia is interesting as a way to disrupt the opponent's hand, and you can also use it on yourself to sculpt your hand, and it gets copied with Invocation to burn through their (or your) library, but is probably too low-impact without any Leovold-effect. (and is super punishing if you use it on your opponent and then they Pyroblast it).
    - Nevermore is interesting because you have ways to copy it which lets you cover multiple angles, but it costs more mana than Canonist (like most options) and Nevermore doesn't disrupt the opponent's cantripping to answer it (or they're playing a deck like SNS and you name the wrong one out of show/sneak).
    - Solitary Confinement is hard (but possible) to maintain and does nothing against SNT
    - Lilting Refrain has no immediate impact and takes a while to build up to a point where it's hard to play around
    - Standstill might not favour you on an empty board
    - Lunar Force (and the 2-mana one, I forget the name), fun with Replenish but too easy to play around
    - Dovescape might not favour you on an empty board, just as easy to cast Decree of Silence

    idk if there's something spicy I'm missing but I think I've considered most of the options
    It's also possible that Cage/Counterbalance/Humility already gives you coverage vs every combo deck and it's just an unnecessary slot

    Edit: maybe the white 1/4 Eidolon is alright because it still gives you a clock (even if it's only 1 power) and it's better against Bomberman/Mystic Forge. (This reminds me that I didn't include Stony Silence but maybe there's no room for it)
    Copying the canonist effect with Invocation isn't irrelevant actually because (in the case of Eidolon) it gives you another attacker and even if the effect doesn't stack it still means they need to find e.g. a 2nd Decay

  12. #32
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    Re: UW Sagas

    That looks a lot more interactive and better at playing the control game. How does it perform in testing?

  13. #33

    Re: UW Sagas

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    That looks a lot more interactive and better at playing the control game. How does it perform in testing?
    It's pretty good actually, I'm thinking of playing it at a big tournament at the start of November

    I think in the maindeck the only changes I would consider are swapping the Azcanta/Font/CB for spell pierce or Force of Negation. There are some Jeskai Mentor or UW Helm decks that have more counterspells (instants) main and counterbalance in the SB so I'm wondering what the best choice is. I think having CB main is pretty good in this list in particular, because against fair decks it can be Replenished back if they counter or decay it, but having more options to fight e.g. early Wrenns is also important

    From there it's just a question of figuring out what to put in the SB like what I outlined in the last post
    Curse of Exhaustion doesn't seem terrible actually because storm can't decay it and being 1-sided means a lot against SNT but maybe it's too slow

  14. #34

    Re: UW Sagas

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    //List
    Pretty good.
    The way I see it, there are still some weak/cute cards (Font of Fortunes, Mirari Conjecture...) but this looks much better already.

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    I think in the maindeck the only changes I would consider are swapping the Azcanta/Font/CB for spell pierce or Force of Negation
    I don't know about that. Don't you think it will dilute your gameplan? As you said, you're more a tape-out control deck.

    Also, could you do a video/repport?

  15. #35

    Re: UW Sagas

    Quote Originally Posted by aedemiel View Post
    Pretty good.
    The way I see it, there are still some weak/cute cards (Font of Fortunes, Mirari Conjecture...) but this looks much better already.

    I don't know about that. Don't you think it will dilute your gameplan? As you said, you're more a tape-out control deck.

    Also, could you do a video/repport?
    Yup there are some weaker cards but they are necessary to enable the 'combos', hopefully it balances out in the end.
    It does dilute the core tapout/enchantment gameplan to play things like pierce but if I win more by playing those instants then I should do that :P Still unsure what the best config is

    I won't be able to e.g. record a league on mtgo but if I do play the deck in a paper tournament I will do a video decktech / report.

    Edit
    So far my preliminary SB is something like
    2 Enlightened Tutor
    2 Seal of Cleansing
    1 Back to Basics
    1 Humility
    1 Dawn of Hope
    1 Stony Silence
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    2 Dovin's Veto
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Force of Negation
    1 Hydroblast

    I think this gives a pretty good spread for different decks
    Wondering if the Stony and the Needle should just be like a 3rd veto and 2nd hydro/fluster
    Edit: Might make the stony a curse of exhaustion because it's applicable vs control and SNT while also still being effective against storm/bomberman
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 10-24-2019 at 02:02 AM.

  16. #36

    Re: UW Sagas

    First tournament of UW Sagas

    Same maindeck as in the previous post and the same SB as suggested, with Curse of Exhaustion instead of Stony Silence

    Round 1 Eldrazi (Aggro version with Mimic and Endless One etc)

    G1 I halt the early aggression with Nodes (killing Mimic + Endlessone + Ballista) and then Invocation + History hold off a bunch of medium Eldrazi. I FoW a midgame chalice and D-Sphere on Endbringer allows an alpha strike with the +2/+1 for game

    G2 My opponent has 2 fast Thorns, I plan to use the D-Sphere in my hand to eliminate them both when I get to 5 mana, but then my opponent plays some creatures so I need to Nodes, but they have Chalice at 1 so I need to use the Seal of Cleansing I topdecked to clear out the Chalice first, and by the time I get through all of this they have Ratchet Bomb for the Nodes and I die.

    G3 A few spreading seas act as speed bumps for my opponents mana and I resolve a Humility. My opponent taps out for All is Dust to clear everything but I untap and slam Back to Basics and the game is pretty much over from there.

    Round 2 BUG Nicfit

    G1 I let my opponent chip me down really low with some Explorers plus Coatls. I clear out their small creatures with Nodes + Plow and use the Explorer ramp to set up a board. They Deed and I Replenish everything back to almost certainly lock up the game but they have another Deed and I die to their manland. I probably couldve won this game if I was just more conservative with my life total and didn't try to get so greedy with Nodes

    G2 I have 2 nodes to try and kill my opponent's Leovold but they Decay/Trophy them both and I die to Questing Beast + Leo before my flipped Azcanta can bail me out

    Round 3 Mardu Zombardment

    G1 their clock is pretty anemic, my nodes chips down their lingering souls tokens while I build up a board with History/Invocation and attack for lethal
    G2 My opponent has multiple fast bloodghasts/gravecrawlers and I can't find a History to hold them off
    G3 My opponent mulligans to 5 and I play Cage on turn 1. I Spreading Seas their black sources and they are never really in the game

    Not a bad result, and after playing exclusively Daze decks for like the past 5 years I am having to pick up some different skills, but it seems to be a decent deck. Hopefully I can play against more 'meta' decks next week

  17. #37

    Re: UW Sagas

    Well that's encouraging.
    I hope you will tell us how it fare against the current top tier decks like RUG, 4c Snow, ANT and Depths.

  18. #38

    Re: UW Sagas

    Another tournament:
    Round 1 Mono B Reanimator 2-1
    G1 My opponent goes for a cleanup discard plan which gives time for me to lock him out with Spreading Seas and CB
    G2 I have to Force of Negation to protect my Enlightened Tutor (for cage) from a Thoughtseize but he has the immediate combo
    G3 My opponent has a chancellor trigger but no fast combo and I play turn 2 cage for game

    Round 2 Sneak and Show (no Omni) 0-2
    G1 he resolves SNT into Gris, I plow it and set up some good CB flips but draw7s are too much and he grinds me out with an eventual sneak into 2x Emrakul.
    G2 I play turn 2 Seas on the play on my opponents Boseiju and he forces it. I think for a bit before Forcing back. In hindsight I shouldn't have done this and probably just banked on my opponent not having the combo for one turn and tried to use the E-tutor in my hand for Humility. (I should already know that my opponent isn't playing Omni because he has shown me Dazes. If I can E-tutor Humility into my hand then his SNT will be dead, and then I can use the FoW to fight over Sneak with the fluster in my hand, while eventually playing toward casting the Humility). Anyway I don't really draw anything for a few turns and he casts Sneak into my Fluster that doesn't do anything

    Round 3 UR Scroll of Fate Nought 1-1-0
    G1 He gets under me with Factory into Standstill, which I have to crack, I eventually die to Factory + bolts
    G2 I give my opponent like 3 standstill triggers because I have Invocation online so I don't care: it's too hard for his deck to beat Plow/Seal/Needle after sideboarding and StifleNought is a disaster into Dovins Veto. I go to 1 life at one point but I have plow/Veto protection, and overwhelming board. He's not a very fast player and by the time I find Knights to kill him there's no time for G3

    not the most useful data lol
    I don't expect the SNT matchup to be that great (just like for Miracles) even though I'm boarding in 14 cards

    Going to play it at another event on thursday before deciding whether to play it at the big tournament in the weekend

  19. #39

    Re: UW Sagas

    Hey data is still data!
    I'm still missing several cards to test this. It will probably be on MTGO before any actual event

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    Going to play it at another event on thursday before deciding whether to play it at the big tournament in the weekend
    Wait, are you going to MF Lyon?

  20. #40

    Re: UW Sagas

    Quote Originally Posted by aedemiel View Post
    Hey data is still data!
    I'm still missing several cards to test this. It will probably be on MTGO before any actual event

    Wait, are you going to MF Lyon?
    No, China
    I think eternal weekend in the USA is this weekend too so it's a big weekend for legacy haha

    Edit: I've just seen a new spoiler from the upcoming Theros set:

    Omen of the Sea 1U
    Enchantment
    Flash
    When Omen of the Sea enters the battlefield, scry 2 then draw a card.
    2U, Sacrifice Omen of the Sea, Scry 2.

    This is the perfect card for the deck, like if you had asked me to design my own spreading seas replacement it probably wouldn't have even been as good as this.
    1) Has flash
    2) Scry 2 AND Draw
    3) Can self-sac to get back with Replenish
    4) Activate to scry 2 at instant speed with CB or clear off dud cards with Brainstorm

    The manadenial element of spreading seas has been surprisingly good but this new card has way too much upside.
    It almost makes me want to stop playing the deck until this card is released

    Its an entire cycle of enchantments with "Flash, ETB do something, 2C + Sac to scry 2" and the green and black ones have also been leaked (unless the leak is fake) but I haven't seen the white one yet.

    Edit again
    The first set of leaks I saw only showed the commons (it was on a pauper forum) but apparently Sagas are also back? This one seems playable:

    Medomai's Prophecy 1U
    Enchantment - Saga
    [1] - Scry 2
    [2] - Name a card
    [3] - When you cast the named card for the first time this turn, draw 2
    [4] - Look at the top card of each player's library

    If Omen of the Sea is an upgraded Spreading Seas then this is an upgraded Font of Fortunes
    - Costs less mana overall, which is better in general but there's also far less chance of a Stifle blowout
    - More synergy with Estrid's Invocation
    - If you are e.g. hunting for your 3rd land then it still helps with that even though the draw is delayed because of the scry 2 on ETB

    Looking forward to more playable cards from this set, especially if there are more sagas and a general enchantment theme.
    There is a 2B black enchantment that draws 3 on ETB but I don't think it's great for this deck because it has the drawback of damaging you whenever you cast a spell: I don't think it's necessary to splash another colour just to give the opponent a Cindervines.
    There's also a 2UU flash enchantment which functions like a Counterspell/Ixalans binding Hybrid, which has interesting implications for Enlightened Tutor but 4 mana for that effect in legacy is probably too expensive.
    Last edited by kombatkiwi; 10-30-2019 at 03:39 AM.

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