If anyone cares, they have been posted here.
Boo for Gadiel finishing one spot higher than me. Oh, and go StifleNaught!
Originally Posted by nedleeds
hmm.. 4 basic lands out of the top 12 decks
Why aren't Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon/Price of Progress/Back to Basics seeing play???
What in the janky gay ninja hell is that 25th place deck?
I don't know, but it obviously only got 25th place because it doesn't play Tarmogoyf. With 'Goyf I'm sure it would bash face and win everything. Oh, and Wonder, to give 'Goyf flying AND to pump up Pride of the Clouds!
I want to make some argument for how 13 out of 32 decks playing Tarmogoyf is an indicator of it's brokeneness. But it's hard to do that when 21 were playing Brainstorms.
Now there's a card no one's talked about banning yet...
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
yet...
I cant really tell if you were being sarcastic or not, but just because a card is widely played doesnt mean it should be considered for banning, being widely played doesnt imply distortion or brokeness. I'd be hardpressed to find anyone who would call Brainstorm "dominating", "brutal", "vicious", or any such word.
That being said...I'm for banning Tarmogoyf, it pisses me off how everyone is creaming their pants over it, and that theyre so damn hard to get (as a result of showing up everywhere...).
I find it amusing how half the people bemoaned how bad green was outside of one deck (Thresh) because every other color had the best undercosted threats, and now that Tarmogoyf's around, everyone's like all "zomg wtfz0rz splash green in everytihng!" or "wtf ban taht shiznit."
But the people that said that about Green were either
a) Talking about other formats,
b) Wrong.
I already crunched the numbers for you a while ago. Pre-FS, Green was the 3rd most played color. It had roughly the exact representation it should have had, behind red and blue and ahead of white and black.
There were people that complained that you could not do anything on your first turn in Legacy and still win, but that doesn't mean that anyone who said Hulk-Flash was broken was a hypocrite. Maybe rational people shouldn't be held accountable for the irrational?
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
But except for Threshold (And the rare smattering of Madness, sure), people weren't playing Green because of the undercosted threats. They were playing green because of cards like Survival of the Fittest, Life from the Loam, and Eternal Witness. You could even argue Goblins played green, but they only did it for Tin-Street and some Plague removal.
So I think it's a plausible argument to state that before Tarmogoyf, Green was not necessarily -the- color to play for the best creatures. And that's what I meant people were complaining about, because all things in the nature of Green suggest they should have the best undercosted fat guys.
Now it certainly has -the- best one, and people aren't happy.
People played Werebear, Watchwolf, Nimble Mongoose, Kird Ape, Mystic Enforcer, and a smattering of others. It's creatures were decent enough. The solution to green's problems wasn't to print more undercosted beaters, which it already had plenty of, but to give it something to supplement them. Green was the worst color not because of it's creatures, but because outside of creatures the only thing it was supposed to be good at was mana accel. But mana accel is just tempo, and every other color had better tempo advantage than green.
Anyway, if you think Green saw little versatility, try checking out the number of blue cards that see print that aren't either Force, Daze, C. Spell, or a 1cc cantrip.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
I actually agree with you. Green's creatures were fine. But they weren't worlds stronger than the other colors' creatures, and the point I'm trying to make is that's what people wanted. Now they have their wish.
Green was actually fairly versatile already. Eternal Witness, Krosan Grip, Survival, and Loam made for four solid Green staples, Mongoose and Werebear made for efficient beaters, Mongrel was versatile as a beater and a discard mechanic, Argothian Enchantress and Enchantress's Presence spawned a whole archetype, and versatile cards like Exploration and Regrowth have seen some play as well.
I completely agree. Blue is the least versatile color in Legacy right now. All blue does is counter spells/abilities, draw cards/manipulate your hand, and occasionally bounce stuff. Blue's creatures are trash. Narcomoeba can hardly even be considered blue as its usually brought in from the library, which leaves the battle for the top blue creature in magic between a deck-specific threat in Sea Drake and a combo piece in Cephalid Illusionist.Anyway, if you think Green saw little versatility, try checking out the number of blue cards that see print that aren't either Force, Daze, C. Spell, or a 1cc cantrip.
In fact, to play Blue in Legacy, you really need to own a set of Forces, a set of Brainstorms, and close to a set of Polluted Deltas and Flooded Strands.
Yet Blue is very good at what it does, so people play it and it wins.
Counterbalance, half of Peter Olzewski's deck, Fire//Ice, Threads of Disloyalty, Cephalid Illusionist, Standstill, Fact or Fiction, Breakthrough, Deep Analysis... well, you're pretty much right. Blue cards are:
Counterspells that cost 2 or less
Cantrips that cost 2 or less
Combo enablers that cost 2 or less
Abusable card drawers that cost 4 or less
Threads is kind of an oddball, but narrow sideboard cards usually are. Sea Drake doesn't even see play any more-- there are no blue threats left that people actually use (unless you count Faerie Conclave).
I still don't understand why people are so upset about Tarmogoyf. Win through it or kill it-- it's just a guy and it only costs two freaking mana. Smother it, Snare it, Threads it, Swords it, Gempalm it, whatever.
Yeah, that's the problem. Silvos smashes face, too, but he takes more effort to get out there and the opponent tends to care a little bit more when they lose their Silvos.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
I mean, I understand that he is an undercosted threat. Every competitive legacy deck is built around costing errors, and Tarmogoyf is not the worst one-- just the one we're seeing the most of right now. It has no evasion and no self-preservation abilities. It's just harder for red to kill than most other creatures, which is why people are complaining about it, I guess-- except the only good red decks are combo or goblins. And red death, I suppose, but black has no problem with this guy at all.
It's actually harder to kill with StP, too. What with you needing the StP a lot fucking closer to the top of your deck in order to not die before you can draw it. I think you under-rate the power of the simple face-smashing. You don't need to worry about what your opponent is doing if they're dead. If it was a 2/*+1, I doubt you'd see as many people complaining.
What other card do you actually think is as under-costed in Legacy? I can think of perhaps StP and Brainstorm, but I think even those are arguable.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Goblin Lackey.
Like, isn't every non-control deck in this format capable of killing by turn 4 or 5? Goblins does regularly, that's a slow hand for Belcher or TES, and now Threshold can too. Big deal. Play some answers or blockers or just win the game.
This is sort of confusing, because I played Tarmogoyf in Standard and people were like "whatever, nice card" and usually just killed it or me. Did that plan, like, stop working? I mean, sure, the card is good but if you can't beat a two drop, nice deck. What cards were people using to kill* Lackey that don't kill Tarmogoyf?
Also, decks that play STP don't have many other targets for them when they're playing against decks with Tarmogoyf. Meddling Mage, Fledgling Dragon, Mystic Enforcer, that's about it? Yeah there's the Zoo decks (which are probably woefully underdeveloped; 12 2/*s for one, Wolf, Goyf, some other 3/3 for two, and a fistful of burn spells is probably pretty damn good) but I can't think of much aside from them.
*Yeah, Bandage doesn't count.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
How eloquent! I'm all geeked up about seeing so much Eternal coverage. I may have to write a tournament report about how I made 12th. Y'know, so that there's more Eternal coverage.
Personally most disliked deck: 28th place, a Goblins deck that splashes White for... StP? Disenchant? Leave no Trace? Nope, for Jotun Grunt and Tempest of Light.
Personally most liked deck: 18th place, a ballsy SI/Belcher hybrid that to a non-combo player like myself looks very sexy. Pity for the terrible sideboard.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Mogg Fanatic, Lava Dart, Death Spark, Chaos Charm, Singe, Crackling Club, Nimble Mongoose, Isamaru, Kird Ape, Sarcomancy... you get the drift.
Not that I'm complaining about Tarmogoyf being hard to kill, I was just wrestling the other day with the very scarcity of good cards beyond Swords to Plowshares which do a good job of dealing with both Goblin Lackey (i.e., before it hits you) and Tarmogoyf.
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote