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Thread: [Deck] Imperial Painter

  1. #841
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Anything short of 4 blood moons in my mind is UR painter or the like (I.e., another deck and thread).

    At that point I would play show and tell something.

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  2. #842
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Those thoughts on the white splash are about right. I always go back and forth if I want to tutor up hate against storm or just go for the combo. I think since they really bring in x copies of abrupt decay that I would rather just have more combo elements but I have basically not played legacy in a while. I would recommend a peacekeeper if you play white. It has some benefits over Bridge. The fact that it isn't an artifact is actually important. It can stop Empty the Warrens and elves much better than Bridge. And you have more tutor for it which basically means you have five copies of it. Not sure it is the right one for the main deck, but it should be in the 75 as one of your Bridge effects.

    @Kap- you're thoughts on the sideboard were really good. I took my snow day and did some testing. I still am a little scared of not having seven blast effects but I like the options the new board leaves.

    4 rip
    1 Helm of Obedience
    1 stone forge
    1 jitte
    1 SoLS
    4 Fireblast
    2 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Goblin Welder

    I will be posting my full list before this weekend as I will be playing in the Bmore SCG open. About the board, it's constructed around expecting to see Jace.dec, delver variants, and the Stoneforge is there to combat fair decks. During my testing when Jund was played I realized that SoLS was really strong in those type of match ups. Jitte players great under Bridge and the versatility to have the options to have both in the side along with allowing Recruiter to also tutor for them is a huge plus. Alone with adding some much needed card advantage it tested great today. I think everyone should try the Firebolt if they are playing removal. It really is better than lightning bolt right now.


    I am going to stay out of the discussions of the mono red from now on, but I will say the speed of five fast mana cards has been great. And all versions should probably move towards that. I have adopted Kaps 3/2 split. You will occasionally lose the ability to FOW your opponent and catch them with their pants down with a daze but overall the extra effects are worth the small commitment.

    So who will be at the SCG open this weekend?

    Seth
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  3. #843
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    I meant Firebolt not Fireblast. I'm an idiot. And that sideboard should be credited to Kapn

    Seth
    …no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.

  4. #844
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by mcbain View Post
    Anything short of 4 blood moons in my mind is UR painter or the like (I.e., another deck and thread).

    At that point I would play show and tell something.

    Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk
    Not quite, because UR Painter didn't run Recruiters.

    Edit: Nevertheless, if you have a few Burn decks in your meta, I'd find space in the sideboard for Pyrite Spellbomb, Salvagers and a LED. All tutorable, and Salvagers needs to be double-bolted to be killed. Or just Leyline of Sanctity. *shrug*

  5. #845

    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    I spent quite a few hours of testing with the R/w list over the weekend and I think I'd rather convert my two E-tutors in two extra MD bridges (for a total of 3) like jandax suggests. I think bridge can win game 1 on its own in many match-ups. The only downside is the inability of tutoring up Grindstone, but I've rarely found myself doing this anyway. Most of the time I would just want to tutor up a lock piece and win the game from there.

    The white splash ended up hurting me in the following ways:
    - Not able to cast e-tutor because of no white source drawn
    - Not able to cast e-tutor because of blood moon
    - Vulnerability to wasteland because of non-basic coloured sources

    In the end, the deck just felt less consistent to me than it used to be, so I'd rather just be Mono-R.

    Too bad I won't be running my nice new FBB plateau at the GP :P

  6. #846
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by japz View Post
    I spent quite a few hours of testing with the R/w list over the weekend and I think I'd rather convert my two E-tutors in two extra MD bridges (for a total of 3) like jandax suggests. I think bridge can win game 1 on its own in many match-ups. The only downside is the inability of tutoring up Grindstone, but I've rarely found myself doing this anyway. Most of the time I would just want to tutor up a lock piece and win the game from there.

    The white splash ended up hurting me in the following ways:
    - Not able to cast e-tutor because of no white source drawn
    - Not able to cast e-tutor because of blood moon
    - Vulnerability to wasteland because of non-basic coloured sources

    In the end, the deck just felt less consistent to me than it used to be, so I'd rather just be Mono-R.

    Too bad I won't be running my nice new FBB plateau at the GP :P

    These are all known issues and downsides associated with the white splash. There are many upsides not listed but it's not worth explaining again.

    @Jandax
    I'll rework the lists part of my opening post to include your variant. I will combine my list with Seth's to further go over the white splash and make the old one mono-red



    edit: made additional changes to the front pages of the thread.

  7. #847

    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    I definitely agree that a list such as Jandax's should be considered the new main deck core for mono red.

    Btw: main deck koth is insane! Played 2 miracle matches last weekend and he was the MVP!

    @jandax: I boarded in the 3rd magus every match. A will never take out the 3 bridges from the MB, but I sided them out almost every game. This was just how my pairings went. Miracles, ANT, Lands, Esperblade, and a couple other matches I can't remember.

    I just like access 7 moon effects to slam early in some matchups. I never want to lose a match where moon is the best card.

    Also, after the earlier discussions about the Miracles matchup here I was able to win the matchup. Moons were great, and Baiting counters to stick a koth was just absurd. In game 3 I slow rolled a koth until I saw a Jace land across from me (bout turn 5). Slam koth! Man-up to beat Jace feels pretty strong. Was also able to bait and fish for information feeling pretty confident that Koth would stick at that point.

    As for the Rw vs Mono R debate. IMO it's still totally personal preference. Each has its strengths and draw backs. If you look back at earlier posts it's discussed pretty heavily. I currently prefer the mono R painter variant. I also have a bit of experience with UR painter... It's a completely... COMPLETELY different deck. And has an incredible matchup vs SnT (if that's heavily played in your meta).

    Looking forward to seeing the front page updated.




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  8. #848
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Hey kap'n, maybe you can copypasta this to amend the deck list entry on the front page:

    A.) Control Decks:
    (Applies to: Miracles, Stoneblade, Landstill, Shardless BUG/BUG Control, etc.)

    All of these decks, except Miracles, leans heavily on Basic lands, making Blood Moon good. They all have reasonable stacks of removal but by large they're looking to go to the red zone to end the game. Otherwise, they'll try to Jace you, for which you have mad blasts and Koth. Bridge becomes better here because it allows you to play the draw go game to either assemble a hand to combo off with protection or you simply start nugging them with Jaya under a bridge. I feel good in these matchups. Stoneblade, however, can be problematic. They have hand disruption and counters, and Wasteland. Koth and Bridge are also boss in any situation, that could also be another out.

    B.) Tempo Decks:
    (Applies to: Team America, RUG Tempo/Canadian Threshold, UWr Delver, Merfolk, etc.)

    Again, Blood Moon is great here. They are assuredly attacking for the win so Bridge is also nuts. UWr Delver is a tough matchup though. They have lots of counters, lots of spot removal, but are mostly dead to a resolved Bridge or Blood Moon. They can also operate on Blood Moon mana because they have Grim Lavamancers often enough. Watch out for Meddling Mage out of the board.

    C.) Aggressive Creature Decks:
    (Applies to: Zoo, Goblins, Burn, etc.)

    Tough matchups. Mulligan to a Bridge or fast combo but be prepared for a removal in response to the Stone ability. Sweepers are nice, and Blood Moon isn't so strong here.

    D.) Midrange Creature Decks:
    (Applies to: Maverick, Junk, B/x Discard, Death & Taxes, Jund, Nicfit, etc.)

    While they utilize more basics than most, Moons are good because their non basics are utility lands vital to their own strategies. They're also attacking for the win, so Bridges shine. A lot easier than the aggressive creature decks because they're slower and you have inevitability.

    E.) Small Creature Combo Decks:
    (Applies to: Elves, Painter Servant, Dredge, etc.)

    Tough, but winnable. Elves isn't the match for a Grindstone kill, as somewhere in the 75 they likely have Progenitus or Emrakul. I can't speak for the mirror but you play the deck too, so just try to out draw them and stay ahead.

    F.) Big Creature/Show and Tell Combo Decks:
    (Applies to: OmniShow, Sneak & Show, Reanimator, etc.)

    Tough. Here's why you preboard bridges. Here's why your alternate wincons are main deck.

    G.) Combo Decks:
    (Applies to: ANT, TES, High Tide, etc.)

    Slap a Thorn down first thing and know your matchup. Get a painter down too to counterblast their important spells and then mill them.

    H.) Prison Decks:
    (Applies to: MUD/Stax/Chalice Aggro/Lands, etc.)

    Just kill them fast. Chalices will be annoying If you play against Lands, just rejoice and windmill slam a Blood Moon but realize they run Mox Diamond and can operate under a Moon, so Revoker usually names Mox then the second names Engeneered Explosives. They do play basics, but you should have ample time to go off from there. Bridge should stay in against Lands because they're likely going to Thespian's Stage->Dark Depths EoT. Otherwise it is a long, dull matchup if they get Punishing Fire/Grove online.

    The Sideboard

    4 Grafdigger's Cage
    3 Thorn of Amethyst
    2 Phyrexian Revoker
    1 Martyr of Ash
    1 Manic Vandal
    1 Koth of the Hammer
    2 Sudden Demise
    1 Ensnaring Bridge

    Sideboarding Guide

    A)Using your best judgement, the first thing I would side out are Moons for the decks running ample basic lands. In come your Revokers, and a Vandal for their artifacts. I'd shave a Magus, too, and bring in the Koth. They will likely burn the first one out, so a back up has always been good to me.

    B)Moons are hot, so is the main deck. Sudden Demise will kill Nimble Mongoose should they get one down before you can plop a Moon on the table. Revokers are also good, but there's not much from the main deck I'd want to shave. You can drop your Koths for extra Blast/Demise/Bridge/Revokers. the Maindeck is geared to cover these bases so there's not much to it really.

    C) Out go koth, in go the extra Bridge and Demise. You can sweep a whole board with a Painter out. Mulligan to a Bridge, or a good control hand, and keep casting spells they need to deal with to eat up their resources. Against Burn, side out all four Moons, Magus can still block stuff, for a Bridge, Demise, and two Revokers (for Lavaman, Hellspark Elemental, stuff)

    D) Maindeck is good here. Use your best judgement to what you need to supplement your MD with from the sideboard. Shave cards for what you bring in, I would't side out a whole set of cards.

    E) Elves: In 1 Bridge 1 Demise 4 Cage Out 1 Koth 5 Moon/Magus. Welders keep your stuff in play when they go for a Viridian Shaman or whatever. Cages are awesome here, as they stop GSZ, Fetch for Dryad, and Natural Order. Cast multiple copies of your artifacts because it'll suck to have them destroy your one bridge and then Craterhoof for the win.

    Mirror: Side out Moons for Revokers and a Vandal.

    Dredge: Moons for Cages. Mull to get one.

    F) Maindeck is also suited for the matchups. Supplement MD with sideboard cards by shaving MD cards to your best judgement.

    G) Moons out for Thorns and a Revoker or two. Revoker LED or Chrome Mox or Lotus Petal. Blast their cantrips or hold on to them if you have a Painter out, for their tutors.

    H) Race. Revokers are good here, and Manic Vandal is too. Moons might be useful on the play against their Sol lands. Revoker should name Metalworker first, as the deck tends to accelerate into their business. Bridges are good, and try to get PS/Blasts online so they can't pull any Spine of Ish Sha shenanigens. Their welder's will need a dealing with, so Jaya becomes better and better. Revoker can shut them down until you get an answer for them, but your own welders can act in response to things as well, don't forget.

  9. #849

    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by jandax View Post
    E.) Small Creature Combo Decks:
    (Applies to: Elves, Painter Servant, Dredge, etc.)

    Tough, but winnable. Elves isn't the match for a Grindstone kill, as somewhere in the 75 they likely have Progenitus or Emrakul.
    Just wanted to point out that elves is much more likely to have Progenitus over Emrakul since Progenitus can be found by their tutors. Also you can grindstone kill vs one Progenitus... (Progenitus will be the only card in their deck so an extra draw step.) However if they have more then one the game auto draws if you try the combo. Lucky though more then one is the exception not the rule.

  10. #850
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Against elves, I would definitely keep moon in on the play, resolving turn one moon means auto-win.

    I still doubt if bridge is great in this match up. If they only hold NO in hand, I think bridge is good. If they go off with glimpse of nature, they just draw a bunch of cards and find millions of ways to deal with it (shaman+symbiote, or abrupt decay post board). I think bridge can only buy some time in some situations, you definetely cannot count on it exclusively.
    Team Blood, Beijing.
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  11. #851
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Both of you are right. But there are elves players in my area that like to run all the Emrakuls and Proggy's, and are mono G. Bridge buys time and is another thing they have to deal with. I mean look, if we nut draw them the game is ours, but if they nut draw us there's little hope outside a Glimpse fizzling. That bit can be amended, as it seems that most American legacy elves decks are of the non-basic variety, where I wholy agree that Moon, especially on the play, is quite good.

  12. #852

    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by jandax View Post
    Both of you are right. But there are elves players in my area that like to run all the Emrakuls and Proggy's, and are mono G. Bridge buys time and is another thing they have to deal with. I mean look, if we nut draw them the game is ours, but if they nut draw us there's little hope outside a Glimpse fizzling. That bit can be amended, as it seems that most American legacy elves decks are of the non-basic variety, where I wholy agree that Moon, especially on the play, is quite good.
    In most lists (at least mid atlantic) and from what I've seen elsewhere too, Emrakul has been replaced by Craterhoof Behemoth.

    As for bridge. Jandax is 100% correct. Play the combo game, bridge buys us time. Assume no Emrakul unless you know different.

    Also, we have many answers to a removal of bridge. Another bridge, Goblin Welder, and counterspell via red blast. Just because a deck has a narrow answer to bridge doesn't make it less good. Thats like not playing a Thorn because storm can bounce it.

  13. #853
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Is there a good way for mono-red painter to answer Miracles w/ RIP + Helm? I played a guy yesterday that was able to combo on me pretty consistently.

    The only answers I can seem to find to RIP is Nevinyrral's Disk or something like Sylvok Replica or Wispmare which require color splash. Maybe even Liquimetal Coating and artifact destruction.

  14. #854

    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Yeah, Revoker is great against miracles in general so thats a fine option.

  15. #855
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by rancOr_ View Post
    Yeah, Revoker is great against miracles in general so thats a fine option.
    Ya, thats what I was trying, but it kept getting killed by StP or Terminus. I also wasn't sure weather to name SDT or Helm with the revoker.

    I just realized ratchet bomb on 2 could wipe out RIP.

    Has anyone tried out Anarchy in the sideboard?

  16. #856
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Hollywood use to use Anarchy back say five plus years ago. It worked as a great reset button that he could control. Although I don't think you should use it against miracles. Your combo should be faster, you generate more mana, and run as many counters to their counters as should be needed. The combo is realistically a fifth turn at best combo. Learning when and how to force your pieces through in the match up May be your best strategy. Moon while not great can still be really strong against them. They need their fetches. And welder and painter should be enough to overwhelm their removal and counters.

    Seth
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  17. #857
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    I was thinking about this matchup, and it's possible an early Grindstone is really strong. They normally run just one Helm, right? Well, it's no news that they're a better control deck than we are, so in the control vs control matchup, it's pretty dismal. So my thoughts are this: Since they only run one Helm, maybe an extra in the board, it's best to get a Stone out early and when they land CB/Top or Enlightened Tutor for the Helm, you are in control of the top of their deck. That's a huge advantage against them, as it is one of thier strengths (Top controls CB and it neuters their E.Tutor package).

  18. #858

    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by jandax View Post
    I was thinking about this matchup, and it's possible an early Grindstone is really strong. They normally run just one Helm, right? Well, it's no news that they're a better control deck than we are, so in the control vs control matchup, it's pretty dismal. So my thoughts are this: Since they only run one Helm, maybe an extra in the board, it's best to get a Stone out early and when they land CB/Top or Enlightened Tutor for the Helm, you are in control of the top of their deck. That's a huge advantage against them, as it is one of thier strengths (Top controls CB and it neuters their E.Tutor package).
    I won a miracles game by slow milling the helm away. It is miserable... But it can be done.

    For that matchup... Just try to fast combo them and/or jam a koth. Blood moon isn't a lock, but can significantly slow them down.


    I don't think there's a straightforward way to win this matchup unless you jam an early koth. Otherwise it's usually a grindy back and forth match with them usually feeling ahead.

    I like Jandax's idea of the early grindstone... It also serves as a "I have half my combo, you better keep somthing up to deal with painter".


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  19. #859
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    Quote Originally Posted by jandax View Post
    I was thinking about this matchup, and it's possible an early Grindstone is really strong. They normally run just one Helm, right? Well, it's no news that they're a better control deck than we are, so in the control vs control matchup, it's pretty dismal. So my thoughts are this: Since they only run one Helm, maybe an extra in the board, it's best to get a Stone out early and when they land CB/Top or Enlightened Tutor for the Helm, you are in control of the top of their deck. That's a huge advantage against them, as it is one of thier strengths (Top controls CB and it neuters their E.Tutor package).
    I think this is probably a decent plan, but one issue is if they E.Tutor for the Helm, then you try to grind it away, they can activate Top to move the helm down to the 3rd card to save the Helm, or even activate the Top's second ability to get the Helm into their hand.

    The guy I was playing did admit that he had some pretty sketchy hands when I played the blood moon or Revoker on Top but still managed to win 5 of 6 games, all using RIP/Helm.

    I think Chalice of the Void on 2 may actually be a good sideboard addition. It only counters revoker and painter in our deck, but those can still come in via welder. It will counter RIP, Counterbalance, and Snapcaster in this particular matchup.

  20. #860
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    Re: [Deck] Imperial Painter

    I really want to play Chalice in this deck, too. But I wouldn't alter the deck to shore up one matchup. That is if Miracles/Helm is popular in your area, you got stuff do combat it.

    In the end, there are several factors you need to remember:

    They're a better control deck (CB/Top, blue draw spells and counters, white removal)

    CB can shut us down pretty easily.

    Their combo costs seven mana to our six.

    That said, we have tools to combat their weaknesses and shore up against its strengths. It's a grindy match at best, over in 10 minutes at worst. Not much fun, but I'm pretty sure all the Delver decks are keeping the archetype in check so it's not much to fret about.

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