Playing this at the local store for a Christmas event in two days. I don't wanna post my list but I am set on my 57 cards. The last three are debatable.
Also, I'm still figuring out my sideboard. Wish me luck.
PS. I will update the primer soon to include "manuals" on how to play the 12post and the Welder lists once I get my Christmas vacation.
Im playing the Mono brown prison style greg price ran.
cheers for the advice, I suppose we just need them to make "bad" counters. ill also test out Bottled Cloister as you suggested.
Goodluck! Cant wait to read your results. Also the manuals would be awesome. I remember first seeing the welder list and thinking "how does this work". I get it now but for others i would be really nice to read.
thank you nameless one
Good luck!!!
@nerv2004:
chalice@1 and cavern of souls are your best strategy against delver decks, but remember that you need lifelink (wurmcoil and batterskull, not only one of the 2) or removal (ratchet bomb, powder keg, you name it) in your maindeck, otherwise a first turn delver can ride to victory since this deck hurts itself with tombs.
Other cards you may bring from the side, if you are not playing them already, are additional disruption (trinisphere, defense grid), protection (bottle cloister, spellskite), removal (razormane masticore, bomb/keg)
Ignorance is strength
I haven't tried out Batterskull in my MUD build yet, as I have a real love affair with Wurmcoil Engine and I like being able to use Cavern of Souls to potentially force through any of my creature threats. I can see it's merits, and I'll probably try it going forward at some point.
I have to say though, I'm really not a fan of Ratchet Bomb in MUD. I know a number of posters here swear by it, but I think there is just too much collateral damage, especially if we're talking about using it against Delver decks. Delver's threats have CMCs of 0-2. Ratcheting up to 2 counters is a significant time investment. Ratchet Bomb on 1 is probably the least harmful to MUD (assuming you're not on a Welder build or using too many Voltaic Keys), but it's also only really relevant against unflipped Delvers. Yes, it kills Nimble Mongoose, but all of our threats already trump the Goose. Lastly, while Ratchet on 0 kills flipped Delver (Insectile Aberration), it also blows up our own Chalices, Germ tokens, and Moxes.
I'm not saying to play batterskull instead of wurmcoil, but in addition to it. Wurmcoil is only weak against Stp and terminus, not batterskull. You can equip a metalworker in late game and it became a threat, costs 5 which fits perfectly the curve of the deck and plays wonderfully with Godo ;)
Ratchet Bomb is an answer to gaddock teeg, which stops the better removals (all is dust and karn mainly), but it has other applications too.
Ignorance is strength
U still playing godo? I tried it sometime ago and i did liked the fact of 2 uncounterable threads true cavern at once. Then again red gives u the possibility to run blood moon wich is also gooood against greedy delver decks.
Still im comfortable with my colorless stompy atm unless ull post a list with some stunning results that is.
I love ratchet bomb. Its as important as chalice. Ull blow it at 0, 2 or 3. Sometimes a chalice or tappes monolith dies yes but it saves ur life by doing so! Ur l-i-f-e! Delver is a pesk flipped at t2. Ratchet bomb. Liliana whiping ur board? Ratchet bomb. Tarmogoyf outta control? Ratchet bomb. The thing is so useful how can someone not see it???
I used to play 8 big guns: 4 wurm 4 skull, however i now went 4 wurm 3 hellkite. I felt very vunerable against flyers and felt hellkite can block delver all day plus is another win conbif he sticks. I dont need life if i can kill his key pieces. Legit argument i think?
To be honest I have played other decks recently (reanimator, big red, turbo eldrazi...), but I'm thinking about building MUD again.
If I do, I'll probably play about 3 Godo for all the reasons above but also for fetching sword of fire and ice, aka your TNN is not a god-wall anymore: I have the feeling that with TNN they could stall the ground while attacking us with delver.
So I think that I want a number of ratchet bomb, steel hellkite, wurmcoil and batterskull in the maindeck because I like to diversify my threats.
I'll post a new list as soon as I'll have some free time, meanwhile I'll keep lurking ;)
Ignorance is strength
I played this deck to a 5-0 record.
I played against the following in rounds order:
Sneak&Show - 2-1
Dredge - 2-1
Merfolk - 2-1
U/W/R Delver - 2-1
Elves - 2-0
Will post more details later tonight or tomorrow when I am not busy.
Correction, my U/W/r Delver matchup was 2-1
First the list:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Mishra's Factory
3 City of Traitors
3 Vesuva
3 Wasteland
4 Mox Diamond
3 Grim Monolith
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
1 Crucible of Worlds
Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Spellskite
2 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Duplicant
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Wurmcoil Engine
Match 1 - Sneak&Show
G1- Win the dice roll.*I mull to 6 after having an opening seven that I can't remember. My six was: 2 Chalice, 2 Tombs, a Mox and a Monolith.*
I resolved a Chalice at one. We both didn't do much throughout the game other than draw go after that. I eventually resolved a Revoker naming Jace, the Mind Sculptor. At this point I've only seen Zendikar blue fetches, a couple of Islands and discarded Ponders. I also resolved a Metamorph copying Revoker naming something I can't remember. I followed them up with multiple Spheres and he eventually scooped.*
G2 - I didn't use my sideboard because I have no idea what I'm against. Basically my main plan is to stick as much resistors as I can to slow him down long enough for my threats to clean up.*
I mulled a 6-lander seven into a risky six with City, Vesuva, Glimmerpost, Chalice and Tangle Wire. It was risky because if I don't draw into lands, I can lock myself out of the game if I keep casting my resistors.*
He goes for Gitaxian Probe, Volcanic Island, 2x Lotus Petal, Show and Tell. I cheated in a Glimmerpost while he cheated in an Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. I resolved a Tangle Wire on my turn hoping to buy me time. I drew two dead cards in my next turns and Emrakul did its thing.*
G3: Sideboard: -1 Hellkite, -1 Titan, -1 Wurmcoil, +2 Spine, +1 Duplicant
I kept my seven consisting of Mox, * Factory, Tomb, Vesuva, Sphere, Monolith and Forgemaster. I go for a turn one Sphere which he Force of Willed. On his turn one, he Ponders. I topdecked a Revoker the following turn and resolved it naming Lotus Petal hoping it will slow him down (Although I am not sure if I named the right card), along with Monolith. He goes for a turn two Show and Tell anyways with the help of his Sol land. I cheated in the Forgemaster while he cheated in Emrakul. On my turn, I resolve a topdecked Chalice at one, activated my Factory for my Forgemaster, activated my Forgemaster to cheat in Duplicant that ate his Eldrazi. My 15/15 Duplicant cleaned up with Sphere protection.*
Overall: I feel like I got lucky with this match as my main game plan is to just slow him down, which is sometimes is not enough as I do not have a means to deal with a resolved Show and Tell.*
Match 2 - Dredge
G1 - Lost the dice roll. I mull to 5 with Wasteland, City, Metamorph, Forgemaster and Tangle Wire.*
His turn one goes as rainbow land (I can't remember, not on notes), Faithless Looting, Lion's Eye Diamond (he didn't pop it) and ended his turn (which surprised me) with a couple of Dredgers in his yard. I topdecked a Chalice and went for it at one, risking getting locked out of the game with if I do not draw into lands. He slow-dredge into Ichorids and Narcomoebas and combo finished with zombies powered up by Flame-Kin Zealot.*
G2: Sideboard: +4 Crypt, +3 Bomb, +1 Hellkite, -4 Wire, -3 Revoker, -1 Titan
My opening seven was 2x Crypt, Cloudpost, Vesuva, Chalice, Metamorph and Crucible (I forgot to side it out).*
I played both my Crypts on my turn one to avoid Cabal Therapy (not sure if it was the right play). I forgot what he casted but I'm sure he tried baiting me to pull the trigger on the Crypts as he had tons of cards in the yard. He mulled into a couple of Narcomoebas but no Bridge from Belows and Ichorids. He then tried to slow dredge but I started building my board filled with Spheres and multiple Golems (both the Worldwake and Metamorph versions). I saw him drop Nature's Claim with the rest of his pile as he scooped.*
G3: Sideboard: -1 Crucible, +1 Wurmcoil
I kept a seven consisting of 4 lands (including two Sol lands), Mox, Sphere and Golem.*
He goes for a turn one Therapy naming Chalice. I go for a turn one Mox, Sol land and Sphere. My turn two was a second Sol land and a Golem. He watched me play *Magic for a bit before he scooped.*
Overall: He told me his game plan against me was to try to combo out before he got my lock pieces on. I asked him if he knew which hate I had, he just said that it's easy to play around Crypts. He also said he's certain that I was packing four Crypts because he knew I was running Chalice and saw the double Crypt on game two. I guess he got unlucky on game two.*
Match 3 - Merfolk
Game 1 - I lost the dice roll. I kept a slow seven with a couple of lands (one was Tomb), Monolith, Chalice, Wire and Metamorph.*
I get overwhelmed with Lord of Atlantises (most of them were Phantasmal Image copies) with a lot of permission protection. I tried baiting a permission with Monolith (which he did) but he had multiple Daze and FoWs.*
G2: Sideboard: -1 Titan, -4 Chalice, +1 Hellkite, + 1 Wurmcoil, +3 Bombs.*
My starting seven was 3 Sol lands, Mox, Bomb, Sphere and Golem.*
The game went as turn one Mox and Sphere, turn two Golem, turn three Revoker on AEther Vial, turn four Golem.*
G3: I kept my seven consisting of 2 Sol lands, Factory, Wire, Sphere, Revoker and a Golem.*
He goes for a turn one Vial. I tried to bait permission with Sphere which he bites. The reason for this is I want Revoker to resolve. My following turn was trying to resolve a Revoker with mana up for Daze. I was fine if he Forced it because this means he has less creatures in his hand. It resolved. I eventually chained Wire, Golem and more resistors on my following turns. Multiple Wires slowed him enough for Golem, Revoker and Factories to win the game.*
Match 4 - U/W/r Delver
G1: I win the dice roll. Kept my seven with Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, City, Sphere, Tangle Wire and Forgemaster.*
We both didn't do anything backbreaking on turn one. My turn two was a drawn Monolith and his was a Stoneforge Mystic for Batterskull. My turn three was Forgemaster with 3 mana from posts and a drawn Tomb. He tried to Daze but I think he was either baiting my Monolith or he forgotten about it. It resolved and used the leftover mana for a sphere. He cheated BSkull after and attacked with it next turn. I Tangle Wire the board to slow him down and before it was my turn, I sacrificed it to my Forgemaster along with the Monolith and an activated Factory for a Titan to wipe his lands out. On my turn, I attacked with the Titan through his tapped out field then reused Forgemaster to get Hellkite and destroy his remaining lands. Hellkite cleaned his board while it was under a Sphere and Chalice protection.
G2: I didn't know what to sideboard so I left my 60 as is. My rationale was it felt that I have a good matchup with it.*
I kept a slow hand with Monolith, Sphere, Wire, and a bunch of lands. I figured it was justifiable as the opposing deck runs Wastelands. If he tries to Waste my land, I would still be ahead because of my resistors.*
He goes with a turn one Delver of Secrets and died to it. My board included Sphere, Chalice at one, Tangle Wire and a lot of lands.*
G3: I was a little irritated that I forgot about Insectile Abomination (yes, it's a pun). My sideboarding was: -3 Monoliths, +3 Bombs.*
I kept my seven with Cloudpost, Vesuva, Glimmerpost, Factory, 2x Chalice, and a Golem. I go for a turn one Cloudpost. He goes for a Delver. I topdeck a Mox and Win from there. I seemed to have lost my notes but I remember having Chalice at one and two multiple Golems (with the help of Metamorph), Wasteland on a Tundra. All did it all playing around Daze. If he countered my Mox, I probably had a harder time (or even lost) that match. I think Glimmerpost bought me a lot of turns gaining life in the face of a flipped Delver.*
Match 5 - Elves*
At this point we both draw because we're not playing top 8 and we both made it already. But we played it anyways since there were players who were playing for top 8.*
G1: I win the dice roll. I mull to six from a one-lander seven. My six had Tomb, Waste, Cloudpost Chalice, Tangle Wire and Metamorph.*
I go for a turn one Chalice at one. He goes with Fetchland, Bayou go. I didn't do anything on turn two, just playing Cloudpost, expecting she would Abrupt Decay my Chalice and getting ready for the long game as I assumed she was on a G/B/x deck. His turn two was Gaea's Cradle *and I realized she was on Elves. I Waste both her lands and she didn't really do much. This game was pretty uneventful as the only creature on the field was Wurmcoil.
G2: Sideboard: -1 Titan, -3 Monolith, -4 Wires, +1 Hellkite, +1 Wurmcoil, +3 Bombs +3 Skites
I kept my seven with 2 Sol lands, 2 Revokers, a Chalice, Mox and Wasteland. While she mulled to six (I don't recall if my other opponents mulled but for some reason I took a note on this one). Her turn one was Fetchland into Bayou for a Deathrite Shaman. I drew a Cloudpost, pitch it to Mox, Wasteland into a Revoker on DRS. *I played like this as a gamble. I was hoping to bait an Abrupt Decay or slow her mana development. On her second turn, she had a Wirewood Symbiote though I don't remember if she casted it or she Green Sun's Zenith for it. My turn two was another Revoker on the Qasali Pridemage and Chalice at one. She didn't do much on her turn. My next turn was Hellkite. I believe the Revoker on both the cards I named and Chalice slowed her enough to make Hellkite relevant as she wasn't able to combo on time.*
@(nameless one): 'gratz for the finish!!! Your list seems an hybrid of the stax and combo versions (maybe more of a stax version with kuldotha and a titan), which was something I was contemplating too, though I haven't come up with a list yet.
So that's my questions:
- how many times do you win with the stax plan and how many with the forgemaster? From your report it seems that it has been relevant only against S&S (against patriot I think you would have win with basically any creature of cost 5 or more): do you think it was necessarly at all?
- how did the posts perform? you literally have only 3 spells that cost 6 or more: did the posts were useful because they help under spheres and/or tangles or were they overkill?
- how was the singleton crucible? did you ever needed it?
- did you felt comfortable having only 1 lifelink creature in the deck? I know that glimmerposts give you life, but they are probably the weakest land in your deck
- how were the tangles and the spheres?
- and the most obvious one: would you change something?
Good job with the deck!!!
Ignorance is strength
@nameless one: I love stax style mud, I was unsure about the post manabase before but think it might be the way to go. I also was happy to see someone else run mishra's factory instead of artifact land bc I believe it out classes them, they were an all-star in the miracles decks I've played in the past. Also what are your thoughts on karn liberated? I love him, he is the jace of mud imho, alternate win con + removal I can't find anything bad about him other that not being able to tinker him with forgemaster.
Sent from my LGMS500 using Tapatalk
Primary deck: Mud
Secondary deck: Burn
Building: Nic Fit
Good job (nameless_one)!
I think I'll be trying out your list once I am united with the rest of my collection.
I just want to add that before I finalized that list, my test list didn't have Forgemaster. If you checked posts before, I mentioned that I have three uncertain slots. These were Thorn of Amethysts (and the three singleton robots all used to be Hellkite). Through my tests in Cockatrice, I find that I tend to lose to decks that either win before I set my Spheres or decks that spam the board early with permanents (creatures to be exact). Thorn doesn't really shine in those situations so it got cut. I replaced them with Metalworker as a "bait" but it doesn't really help my gameplan. If they kill/counter Metalworker, it was fine. But as soon as it doesn't happen, I am left with a useless Metalworker that attacks for 1 a turn. It also competes with "playtime" with resistors. I wanted to spam the board with resistors early game so my opponent can't interact. Metalworker does the opposite. I then switched it to Forgemaster (and switched the three Hellkites with singleton robots). Forgemaster is great because it can find the right win conditions in a given situation. It doesn't compete with the resistor's play timing. It also recycles dead cards like fading Wires and Moxen if you've developed you Post mana base.
I don't exactly understand the question. But my answer would be try to slow the game via Stax plan and try to resolve a beater (Lodestone or a singleton Robot) or a Forgemaster that can find a robot that will win the game depending on the scenario. I think the Stax plan is essential to my list as it prevents the opponent in doing early broken plays. Forgemaster is there to compliment the Stax plan.
They were helpful in making Spheres and Wires one sided. They could be a liability because of the EtB tapped clause but that's why I had Moxen to compliment the Sol lands.[*]how did the posts perform? you literally have only 3 spells that cost 6 or more: did the posts were useful because they help under spheres and/or tangles or were they overkill?
In my testing, I even went as far as running Smokestacks and Crucible helps that strategy. I just find that I am indiscriminately discarding Posts to Moxen in favor of Sol land for an accelerated play. Crucible helps in getting them back to stabilize the mana base and to buy you extra turns in gaining life. Having to Wastelock an unprepared player also feels nice.[*]how was the singleton crucible? did you ever needed it?
I didn't mind in my testing since my main goal is to stop the opponent from doing anything. I find that Glimmerpost are actually great of the life gain. They help with the life you've lost from Ancient Tomb[*]did you felt comfortable having only 1 lifelink creature in the deck? I know that glimmerposts give you life, but they are probably the weakest land in your deck
They were great in the early game and can buy me enough time to set up my Post mana base and abuse it.[*]how were the tangles and the spheres?
I want to add that the reason why I am running Sphere instead of Trinisphere is because it can also come in turn one like Chalice and aren't bad in multiples. Not to mention that no only they somehow play the same role, for cheaper cards, Sphere delays expensive casting cost spells like Jace while Trinisphere doesn't. Sphere also plays nice with Wires while 3sphere doesn't.
I might add Blightsteel Colossus as my 61th card as an "oops button" to Forgemaster if I don't have a lot of mana (Hellkite is my current one if I have an active Post manabase and I don't want to draw into BSC) or Batterskull as a more resilient creature when I can't protect a robot behind Spheres (although that's Sundering Titan's job). But so far, I'm satisfied with it.[*]and the most obvious one: would you change something?
Thank you but I feel I got lucky with the deck overall. I want to see other players succeed with it for me to be convinced I'm going the right path with the list.Good job with the deck!!!
Actually, 12 Post is still the slow mana base that it is. This is why I build my mana base in a way to abuse it buy not be reliant to it. I learned from Alex Holland that it's a terrible mana base but I've also learned from the recent great performances of the 12 Post lists that it's abusable. Why not compromise right?
I like then because they can attack if you've got your opponent on a lock. 6 damage in 3 turns means that Wurmcoil has less work to do and wins the game faster. Winning the game faster means you win before your opponent gets out of that lock.I also was happy to see someone else run mishra's factory instead of artifact land bc I believe it out classes them, they were an all-star in the miracles decks I've played in the past.
I like him but he costs 7 to cast. He doesn't play well with Spheres and Lodestone Golems. Trying to cast him means you have to either rely on 12post or go double Sol land and a Monolith. He's a great card but I don't think he's cut for the strategy I am currently presenting.Also what are your thoughts on karn liberated? I love him, he is the jace of mud imho, alternate win con + removal I can't find anything bad about him other that not being able to tinker him with forgemaster.
I would love to answer more questions and be proved wrong. Proving me wrong means there are mistakes that you can see that I haven't and I can go further in fixing it.
Congratz on your performance and MUD-innovation (nameless_one)!
I was only wondering why you've taken up ratchet bomb in your sideboard instead of powder keg, since they work better with tangle wire?
I can't find Powder Keg.
But I would rather have Keg over Bomb
Why Keg vs Bomb:
- Keg is old frame, Bomb isn't.
- Keg plays well with Wires
- What enchantments do you want to blow up Bomb? I'm sure as hell both do not work under an active Stony Silence
- Blowing up planeswalkers with Bomb in Legacy? Hopefully you're not losing at that point. Also, that's what Revokers are there for. And you're supposed to prevent them from resolving with resistors.
Frames can be altered of course. I blow loads of lilianas with bomb but i dont meet many enchantments nowadays.. occasional pernicious deed and rings. Still u do want to take them out. Why opt for a card that is faaar les versatible?
legacys magic number is 2. You will want to control ur bomb. I often put 1 counter on it then wait what they drop in their turn. Kegs horrible since u cant play it in advance but ull have to wait and play catchup.
Its only better with tangle wire, i agree.
But otherwise.. ratchet of course. M14 buy a box promo is nice?
Too bad u didnt break smokestack. I think its an incredible card, just not in current mud builds. One day it will be playable i just know
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)