I have done some research into the GB(not turbo) Depths, GB Lands, GB whatever plus Dark Depths combo, and have been pretty surprised by the overall results and also the lack of testing present. My current Rock list is only a few cards off from my Depths list so I will be staying in this thread for discussion.
With my drop down to 2 colors, I have the room for the Depths package in my mana base and crop rotation takes the slot from my personal fav, noxious revival.
Creatures(15)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Vampire Hexmage
Disruption(7)
4 Thoughtsieze
3 Hymn to Tourach
Removal(7)
3 Fatal Push
4 Abrupt Decay
Planeswalkers(3)
3 Liliana of the Veil
Selection(7)
3 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation
Lands(21)
3 Bayou
3 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Sideboard(15)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
3 Lost Legacy
2 Marsh Casulties
1 Dismember
2 Surgical Extractions
1 Diabolical Edict
1 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Nihil Spellbomb
The only deck that loses matchup percentage with the Depths addition is going to be Death and Taxes, as the combo is not very good against them, on the plus side with 3 sylvan library, anyone that swords to plowshares a marit lage is going to let us draw 5 cards for free.
The combo matchup gains quite a bit as thoughtsieze into hymn into 20/20 is a reasonable plan.
Taking this out this weekend, any thoughts?
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
List seems solid, but I'm pretty biased No love for Grim Flayer?
Slight tweaks after testing tonight:
Creatures(15)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Vampire Hexmage
Discard(7)
4 Thoughtsieze
3 Hymn to Tourach
Removal(7)
3 Fatal Push
4 Abrupt Decay
Card Selection(7)
3 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
3 Crop Rotation
Planeswalkers(3)
3 Lilliana of the Veil
Lands(21)
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgamoth
3 Wasteland
2 Thespian Stage
3 Dark Depths
Sideboard:
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
3 Lost Legacy
2 Marsh Casulties
1 Dismember
2 Surgical Extractions
1 Diabolical Edict
1 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Nihil Spellbomb
This might be the best fair deck that I have played in legacy. Against other fair decks you play the normal back and forth BG game, then you EoT make a 20/20 that they cannot do anything about. In addition, none of the creatures we play can be allowed to live if the opponent loses very quickly. When your back up play is Goyf + Dark Confidant, you aren't doing that bad.
The worst card in the deck is the Hexmage, which is not a bad thing as he is how we threaten fast combo hands. Against unfair decks you have your own combo in addition to discard and beaters. I have already lived the dream of turn 1 thoughtsieze, turn 2 hymn, turn 3 hexmage + depths for the scoop, feels good.
@Chatto Grim flayer is just too slow for anything that I am trying to do. He is going to be at his best against decks that cannot block him as a 2/2, obviously, and even then he takes 3 turns to get value out of his card selection. I also wouldn't want to cut any creatures for him. Goyf is just too valuable in many matchups for being too big and dumb. The other creatures offer game winning effects and not just card selection after combat.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
The sideboard options with crop rotation are also very good. Karakas and bojuka bog give us turn 1 interaction with several decks, which gives us time to get either the combo or discard+Liliana online. I think I want to find room for the 4th rotation, but 3 might be the correct number.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
I've been trying a Rock list with GSZ recently:
3x Deathrite Shaman
2x Noble Hierarch
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Thoughtseize
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Sylvan Library
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
3x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Karakas
1x Horizon Canopy
4x Wasteland
SB: 3x Surgical Extraction
SB: 2x Zealous Persecution
SB: 1x Abrupt Decay
SB: 1x Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1x Reclamation Sage
SB: 1x Garruk Relentless
SB: 1x Duress
SB: 1x Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1x Pithing Needle
SB: 1x Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1x Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1x Winter Orb
While not-so-subtly inspired by GWb Maverick, I think GSZ adds a dimension of consistency to this list I often find lacking in non-Blue Rock decks.
Its possible an SFM package or Liliana of the Veil belongs here but I wanted to start with something as streamlined as possible.
For a GBw version I would always start with what sdematt has last posted and then make changes based on personal preference/metagame. This is the last version of his that I can find:
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
14
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
8
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Green Sun's Zenith
8
3 Lingering Souls
2 Sylvan Library
2 Painful Truths
7
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2
2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
22
61
Sideboard
2 Choke
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Bitterblossom
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Pithing Needle
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Surgical Extraction
Personally, I think your list has too many creatures and would cut either Goyf or Knight, as they are kind of exclusive of each other. I would also go to 4 DRS and cut the heirarchs, DRS is amazing.
After that you can read pages and pages of planeswalker analysis, how much discard to run, how much removal people like, how many GSZ(personally I am always at 4 for my build as I think the card is bonkers)
I would always plan to play Miracles which means packing Libraries and Truths but the colors offer such a large selection of cards and effects.
Lastly, if you are going to be as creature heavy as you are I don't know if just playing GWb Maverick is a bad idea ie bring back the Mother of Runes and cut the goyfs.
Good Luck!
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
@lavafrogg - I'd be interested in how testing goes with your list. Your manabase scares the bejesus outta me though. I looked at it and my wife said I made the "Mother of God" face.
@Seraphix - As a huge proponent of Knight, where's the WOW factor? Your Knight should be a threat in more ways than being a beat stick. Use her lands to control/win the game.
I think you're missing this for your GSZ package as well. Going lots of creatures is fine but, the point of Zenith is to give access to multiple angles for creatures to be relevant from. Yes, you have more green creatures than most other lists (I'm not a fan of the generic list) but, you also don't do anything outside of your 2 drop with them. Your 3cc is all Knights, and your 1cc is intended as all accelerates (you don't want to zenith for any of them late game). I've personally come to prefer Traverse > Zenith in most cases.
If you want the SFM package it's cost is a minimum of 4 slots. Your Mystic to equipment ratio should find a way to compliment the rest of your curve as well. I find that either 3 (1;2. when I just want redundancy for the equipment) or 5(3;2 when I want it to be a main aspect of the deck) works best for my style of play and depending on the purpose. I do think that including the package as a main aspect is too slow for the standard lists. If She's going to be a main aspect, you should be exploding Eva Green style more than traditional Rock lists. That would involve mox of some type though and then your list looks more like my style than Matt's (we have different angles on the generalized lists).
For reference and a different starting point, this was the last time I was testing both packages in a list. Seriously, make adjustments. This list wasn't the greatest thing. Lots of card testing was occurring to fix some other issues I had noticed.
7-10-15
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Funeral Charm
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
1 Council's Judgment
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Sylvan Library
2 Bitterblossom
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Treetop Village
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
2 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
Sideboard
3 Orim's Chant
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Gerrard's Verdict
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Choke
1 Lingering Souls
1 Council's Judgment
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
I am working on it. My two versions of my list are pretty much identical except for 3 slots and the mana base.
Set:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Thoughtsieze
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Fatal Push
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
3 Crop Rotation
3 Lilliana of the Veil
From here I am either going the control route with:
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Bayou
or the combo route with:
3 Vampire Hexmage
3 Dark Depths
2 Thespian Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgamoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
3 Bayou
At this point I am testing both this weekend and will get back with some results soon. Tracker is just so good, but so is just winning the game on turn 2/3/4.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
Just popping back in since apparently someone had said I was missed. I still haven't played in ages, but I'll try to attend Vegas IF I can, but most likely I cannot.
I'll post some pretty pictures when I get the chance.
-Matt
Sweet list that got a top 8 last week:
Lands(23)
3 Bayou
3 Cabal Pit
1 Forest
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
Creatures(14)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Tireless Tracker
Spells(16)
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Collective Brutality
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
Other(7)
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sylvan Library
Sideboard(15)
2 Choke
2 Containment Priest
1 Duress
1 Grafdigger's Cagef
3 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Toxic Deluge
This is pretty close to what I have been working on, with White instead of straight BG, and I might be convinced to switch back to 2 colors. The Kambal out of the board is awesome in so many matchups, as well as the trips cabal pit.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
Tireless tracker is so good. Always make sure to save a land/fetch for him in the mid-late game and he will always at least 2-1 your opponent if not much worse.
I am back to tracker builds for now, the dark depths combo is strong, but makes for some awkward draws. Current testing is focused around grim flayer, he makes bad matchups better... but also takes away points on some good matchups. He is also super slow, which matters in certain matchups where we would want his ability(combo).
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
Hey all, with GP: Las Vegas coming up, I finally have an excuse to get myself back into Legacy. It's been several years since I last played, and even longer since I played seriously. Junk was the last deck I played, and I really enjoyed it, so I figure I might as well start here. My list is very straightforward (and relatively the same as it was 2 years ago):
22 Land - 10 Fetches, 4 Basics, 4 Duals, 3 Wasteland, 1 Karakas
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Lingering Souls
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
I'm going to be grinding this out in MODO Leagues (when MM3 comes out...hopefully Liliana and Goyfs drop a bit), so I'm looking at a pretty generic metagame (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy#online).
A couple questions on the maindeck:
1. I think I want a Maelstrom Pulse in the maindeck (good against Entreat, Jace, Eldrazi dudes, whatever random nonsense), but I'm not sure what to cut. I could see cutting an Abrupt Decay, since Miracles seems to be shaving CBs and Mentors. I could also see cutting an SFM, since I'm only running 2 Equipments. Anyone have any thoughts?
2. How good is Hymn to Tourach nowadays? Is running just 2 of them worth it?
3. I'm wondering how good Batterskull actually is currently, as well. I'm thinking about cutting it for Sword of War and Peace, which seems like it's stronger against Miracles, DnT, Burn, and random Combo decks. It probably does make me weaker against Eldrazi and various BUG decks, though.
As for the SB, here's my starting place:
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Assorted Sweepers (some combo of EE/Toxic Deluge/Marsh Casualties/Zealous Persecution)
SB: 4 Assorted GY hate (some combo of Leyline/Crypt/Surgical/Faerie Macabre/Whatever)
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
I'm not sure about the Chokes, but until I get more data, this is what I'll start with. I'm sure there are way better things I could be doing, I just have no idea what they are.
Any thoughts/criticisms/help is appreciated!
I hear they got twisters miles wide in the Midwest.
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