After some tests, here is my updated decklist:
// Lands
14 [ON] Mountain (1)
4 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
3 [TE] Wasteland
// Creatures
3 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
3 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [US] Goblin Matron
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
1 [WWK] Tuktuk Scrapper
1 [PLC] Stingscourger
2 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [LRW] Tarfire
2 [AT] Pyrokinesis
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [WWK] Tuktuk Scrapper
SB: 2 [PLC] Stingscourger
SB: 1 [AT] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
-1 Mountain +1 Wasteland
Wasteland just win games. It is, like Tacosnape said, one of the 10 strongest cards in Legacy. It punishes people for keeping weird 1-land hands, and can take out troublesome lands, like the ones GoboLord pointed out (he forgot Gaea's Craddle + Scavenging Ooze, but that's a corner case).
Nothing better than Wasteland a RUG Delver's Volcanic Island after he plays Ponder or Delver. Play a full set of them, they're pretty rewarding, and this deck supports it nicely.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
Krenko is great in the early game if you can cheat him in and avoid spot removal. (Combo MU)
He's great in the Mid-game for clogging the board OR alpha striking. (Maverick, RUG)
He's great in the late game for overwhelming your opponent. (Control)
He lets you play goblins for free while activating Ports and Wastes.
He makes Gempalm a house and makes Piledrivers ridonky-donk.
If he cannot be answered he WILL win you the game. Seriously. You'll just win. Opponent gaining 8 life a turn with Batterskull? Doesn't even matter. Gain live linearly while facing down an exponentially growing horde. The horde wins.
If you can resove him against a deck with sweepers he allows you to hold onto the Goblins you draw to refill the board after Terminus or Wrath or Deed.
Only problem is, he's kinda cute.
I don't know whether to play 1 or 2. How many Thalia is Maverick running these days? I feel like Krenko will be such a removal magnet that having multiples wouldn't be a bad idea.
Here's the most important thing about playing him though:
If you have the choice of getting a Lord, Matron, Ringleader, or Siege-Gang Commander in play...OR...getting Krenko in play: Krenko should be played second. He doesn't replace the CA engine we've got going. He just supplements it. Because, remember, he doesn't DO anything when he comes in play. Playing Matron, Ringleader, or Siege-Gang Commander DOES something (gets more goblins in play or hand). Without a Lord, Krenko does Nothing and eats a Swords or Bolt. Krenko supplements your plan and allows you to play through boards filled with Moms, spirit tokens, and lets you better race Emrakuls, Grisslebrands, Progenitiiiii and Batterskulls. But he can only do this if you've already established a board presence. Don't get greedy and think he alone will let you ride your hand to victory, because he won't. It's business as usual until you've run out of things to do or don't have anything better to do (T4, hand of Lackey, Stingscourger and Krenko: Now you can play Krenko).
Krenko is going to be an awesome Vial option too, especially with a Lord in play. If they don't respond to the Vial activation by killing the Lord (which they probably won't, if you're activating your Vials right) then you're guaranteed a Krenko activation. Boo-yah.
Anyway, this is a good addition to the goblin repetoir, and it bodes well for the goblins to be printed in the upcoming year.
I play 17 mountains and 4 wastelands in my mono red goblins. I don't play fetchlands or ports and my mana base is solid. I also try to keep my mana curve down by playing tarfires and only ringleaders and 2 SGC above 3cc ( Tuk Tuk in SB )
I don't like being stifled or wastelanded as i need my mana, even though i play vials, lackeys and 2 WI.
Also the counter match up seems fine, it's combo I struggle more against.
So why dilute my mana base and open myself up to wastelands by playing cavern of souls when against counter decks i perform well already.
( Ports have been dropped as maverick and bant seem to make port ineffective, so i've gone more aggro with chieftains than aggro control route )
As for my SB I've decided upon
4 x COV
3 x Thorn of Amethyst
4 x Relic ( v Goyf, Goose and GY and cantrips )
3 x Pyrokenisis
1 x Tuk Tuk
I tried REB but ended up playing too passively on the counter!
Also Stingscourgers MD must v Emrakul
Gempalms ( cantrips and uncounterable ) and MWM work well together and together with Chieftains and tarfire make this a removal heavy, aggro list. I still play 2 piledrivers for as finishers but dropped warchief.
All in all it seems effective
17 mountain
4 wasteland
4 vials
4 lackey
4 tarfire
3 MWM
2 WI
2 Piledriver
2 Stingscourger
4 gempalms
4 chieftain
4 matron
4 ringleader
2 SGC
To play any more 4cc or 5cc Goblins besides ringleaders and SGC have to be awesome as they hurt the mana curve!
Hmm..why don't playing CoS? Becuase it could be wasted? As long as I remember this deck, we mostly played more than 4 nonbasics. 7-10 years ago, it was Rw Vialgoblins with Swords to Plowshares and Armageddon. And some years ago, every person has played a splash (black and/or green) and/or Ports in addition to the Wastes.
Now, some people say they don't want to play the Cavern of Souls, becuase they could be wasted. If someone says, he/she doesn't have needed it against control since yet, it would be luck!
For sure you can defeat controldecks without a CoS. But it's more difficult than with it. F.e. aginst UW Terminator: they have to play Terminus and after it to force your Ringleader for the win. With Caverns, they can't do this and you win.
Also, what is better than play a uncounterable Lackey turn 1 before you play an undazerable Vial turn 2?
I often in the last 100 games had more than one Cavern in play an ley myself back, knowing that only removal could hinder me from being the winner (and normally controldecks play more counter than removal).
So in my opinion, there is no reason, don't playing Cavern of Souls
Nice analysis!
I was pretty happy when I saw the spoiler this morning, but then I started to think about what I would cut for him and hit a roadblock.
It seems obvious that Piledriver + Krenko is a pretty big game, so that's not the cut.
Chieftain/Warchief + Krenko is also a pretty big game, so that's not it either.
We're not touching Matron, Ringleader or Lackey, so those slots are out.
That really only leaves the "flex" slots the vast majority of us currently devote to removal. So the question isn't so much whether or not Krenko is good (I think he is), but whether or not he is better than some piece of removal.
Also of note, unfortunately he is legendary...so he is a pretty poor top deck/Ringleader reveal when you're already holding one.
One last thing - Krenko certainly makes Mogg War Marshal and that new Beetleback Chief from Planechase 2 look a little better.
Now all we need is some cost efficient goblin shaped artifact hate...here's hoping!
i run R/B gobbos, and i think... with sneak and tell being a real deal... the black splash for warren weirding is VERY useful
I agree with JRW analysis. Krenko is looking better and better in my view.
Differently from Kiki, Krenko could win the game with any other goblin into play. He + Warchief/Chieftain, by himself, can make 6 1/1 Goblins in 2 turns! SIX! If if is Chieftain, their 2/2s! thats 12 power on the table on 2 turns! By himself!
In my list, Tuktuk will probably hit the SB, and if it is really that good, something else for the 2nd copy.
Also, I1ll be playing a list with 6 haste guys, 2x Piledrivers, 3x MWM, Skirk Prospector and Sharpshooter, so he must fit in like a glove.
Reall, he doesn't look win more. Even if he does, Kiki was considered "win-more" for a very long time, but has seen play by many of our hands nowadays.
Guess only testing will tell...
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
I disagree. Here's why: Stingscourger + Aether Vial + Cavern of Souls
Weirding can only be played by casting it off a Badlands on your turn.
Stingscourger can be SnT'd into play on your opponent's turn, Vialed into play on your opponent's turn, and cast uncounterably off Cavern on your turn.
Stinger is better than Weirding because you can use it on your opponent's turn, or make it uncounterable on your turn, and it will never be dead in hand because you didn't draw a fetchland.
I'll definitely try him too, seems like he could be good addition to my 4mwm and 4chieftain list list. Dunno what will come out but hooligan might be be the one. I'm really excited because this is first useful goblin atfer 3 years of nothing and since he has "azorius" in his flavour text we might get more in Ravnica!
Agree with everything.
Also, they can't Missdirect a Stingscourger.
Wow! Havnica was in 2009! That's almost 3 years already! (september)
Maybe we can even think of an experimental list featuring Krenko and the goblin from Planechase. 8 dudes for 2 cards seems fun =D
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
@jrw: oh yeah, the good old waste/port lock
@all: the more I think about the new guy, I agree with you guys. Could be a real deal...not the first target, but a good addition in our deck. With him, the fantastic Mogg War Marshals will get much better.
@Sabertooth: I played the splash a very long time with and without WW. You don't need ist and the mono red version is better. Often, it is enough to bounce the bad guys. You don't need to let them be sacrificed.
You don't need to cripple your manabse by playing fetchies and Duals which will be wasted and stifled if you would do better without it. Also Perish and Virtue's Ruin are nice cards but not needed.
(1) It's not like you can judge that yet.
(2) It's not like this is the only criterion for including cards in our deck. I mean: Aether Vial doesn't help against Storm Combo (aka. the deck's bad matchup) either...so why so much excitement over Vial?
.....................................
On a different note:
What do you guys think are our bad MU right now? Or asked differently: I'd like to hear some estimates about our current MUs in terms of "very good", "good", "even", "bad" & "very bad".
Gimme some lists, guys!
e.g.
Esperblade: good
Maverick: even
RUG Thresh: bad
TES: very bad
....
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
Does my sarcasm meter go up to 11?
You are absolutely right, sir. Players on this thread should in no way be excited that a card which doubles the number of synergistic creatures they have in play for free each turn exponentially and can win the game by itself has just been spoiled.
You are also entirely valid in pointing out that this exponential-growth goblin generator will in no way help our bad MUs, since, as you clearly and certainly are aware, Goblins decks seldom, if ever, win through a line of play that involves having more bodies on the ground than their opponents.
And I hate you.
I like him, hes cute. He would be better with an ass of 4, but well..
The biggest concern i currently have with goblins is the inconsistency on draws. I lost lots of games because I was either flood or screwed and the tier decks can circumvent that by playing Brainstorm, Top, GSZ and other manipulation. We lack that and I dont see a goblincard that can fix this :(
Maybe a Ringleader for 3 cards and cc3
Got tired of Legacy and you like drafts? Try my Paupercube What?
I didn't mean it like that. Outside of storm-based combo, there are bad matchups that could help Goblins.
Cavern helps, at some point Kiki-Jiki helps re-buy CIP/ETB effects.
Yes, Mogg War Marshall is great in stalling aggro decks but at four mana, is it worth running Krenko? At four mana.
I am pretty sure that at four mana, it was discussed that a theoretical Goblin Hivemaster would cost to much. How is Krenko special/different?
I don't mean to put people down. I'm just trying to have a discussion.
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