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Thread: Changes to the SCG Opens in 2015

  1. #21

    Re: Changes to the SCG Opens in 2015

    Isn't the reward for an IQ the right to play standard? I'd rather get rickets.

  2. #22
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    Re: Changes to the SCG Opens in 2015

    This was a change that inevitably had to happen. I don't think it's about Legacy, it's about getting rid of 10-11 rounds of Magic on Saturday that is a miserable experience for everyone. Sacrifices had to be made. Can you imagine if these would get large enough for 12 Swiss rounds? At least the 2014 structure accommodates the growth and possible scale of the Open Series.

    I hope they increase the number of Legacy main event weekends though. The insane thing about this is that first place pays more than first place at a Grand Prix. Wow.
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    Re: Changes to the SCG Opens in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziveeman View Post
    I hope they increase the number of Legacy main event weekends though.
    That would be nice. Maybe they will run simultaneous opens like they did the last week of September, with one being Legacy and one being Standard.

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    Re: Changes to the SCG Opens in 2015

    Lack of SE events is pretty terrible. Guess I am driving to Indy.
    Soldier Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Isn't the reward for an IQ the right to play standard? I'd rather get rickets.

  5. #25

    Re: Changes to the SCG Opens in 2015

    Will the switch to the Grand Prix format for the Open affect decks that are higher variance?

    In the old format, a Legacy Open would be played out with 10+ rounds of swiss and then cut to top8. In the Grand Prix format, there are more overall rounds of swiss (played out over two days) before the top 8 is played, which would probably reward the more consistent decks with lots of cantrips and filtering over the "mulligan hard" decks like MUD that need to go on a fortunate streak of pairings and die rolls to top 8 a big event.

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    Re: Changes to the SCG Opens in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziveeman View Post
    I hope they increase the number of Legacy main event weekends though. The insane thing about this is that first place pays more than first place at a Grand Prix. Wow.
    This is basically my only complaint other than the fact that it's a little harder for those of us who aren't dedicated SCG grinders or who have other obligations (work, families, etc.). Having a maybe-one-day, maybe-two-day event is problematic, especially if significant travel (like flying) is involved.

    I will definitely be contacting them.

  7. #27
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    Re: Changes to the SCG Opens in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by MGB View Post
    Will the switch to the Grand Prix format for the Open affect decks that are higher variance?

    In the old format, a Legacy Open would be played out with 10+ rounds of swiss and then cut to top8. In the Grand Prix format, there are more overall rounds of swiss (played out over two days) before the top 8 is played, which would probably reward the more consistent decks with lots of cantrips and filtering over the "mulligan hard" decks like MUD that need to go on a fortunate streak of pairings and die rolls to top 8 a big event.
    This was my thought as well. If you didn't think the consistency of the blue shell was a problem before... Be prepared to never see a non blue "fair" deck in the top 8 ever again
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  8. #28
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    Re: Changes to the SCG Opens in 2015

    This really sucks hopefully if we raise enough of a ruckus they will reconsider. This isn't Wizards, Star City is pretty business savvy I have to imagine that they knew there was going to be backlash and decided to do it anyway.

    Seems like there is a big push in organized play to get us to play standard. WOTC and SCG are both making it much more difficult to be a Legacy/Modern grinder Eternal players tend to be long time players with large collections, networks of people to borrow from and a lot experience with magic finance. The sad fact is non rotating formats just don't move singles the way standard does.
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  9. #29
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    Re: Changes to the SCG Opens in 2015

    Dropping this much legacy support sucks a lot of balls and completely overshadows the other terrible change they made: bring back byes to the opens. It seems incredibly wrong to me to give byes to your employees (grinders that writer) to increase their chance of winning and thus increase their image to help sell their articles. Although I have only played at GPs I have byes at, I still think it is a terrible idea. Having free wins feels like I am cheating. I only play in MTG tournaments maybe 0-2 times a month and luckily spiked GPTs, but for most people you get byes (for SCG or GPs) by just playing a lot. It does not seem to fair that out of players of equal skill the one that just plays more gets a significantly higher chance of placing at large events that (often skilled) people come out of the woodwork to play at.

    If you are better than average player (60%+ win rate) and have 2-3 byes in a 9-12 round event, odds are you will place high enough to get money. It basically encourages more of these "career" mtg players to just do nothing with their lives but travel around to open after open (like Todd Anderson or Brad Nelson) since the byes system and SCG paying them for articles pretty much guarantees that their travel expenses will be paid for. Given that they are going back to having byes, I actually don't mind so much that the legacy will be 5k IQs. If you take out the attendance factor, mtg players with actual lives who are also decent at mtg have a much higher chance of getting money at a 5k were everyone is on the same playing field vs a 20k were a bunch of SCG favorites are all basically set up to cash unless they are really terrible.

  10. #30
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    Re: Changes to the SCG Opens in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    This was my thought as well. If you didn't think the consistency of the blue shell was a problem before... Be prepared to never see a non blue "fair" deck in the top 8 ever again
    We'll probably see more nonblue decks in the probably shorter 5k events, for what that's worth.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheArchitect View Post
    Dropping this much legacy support sucks a lot of balls and completely overshadows the other terrible change they made: bring back byes to the opens. It seems incredibly wrong to me to give byes to your employees (grinders that writer) to increase their chance of winning and thus increase their image to help sell their articles. Although I have only played at GPs I have byes at, I still think it is a terrible idea. Having free wins feels like I am cheating. I only play in MTG tournaments maybe 0-2 times a month and luckily spiked GPTs, but for most people you get byes (for SCG or GPs) by just playing a lot. It does not seem to fair that out of players of equal skill the one that just plays more gets a significantly higher chance of placing at large events that (often skilled) people come out of the woodwork to play at.

    If you are better than average player (60%+ win rate) and have 2-3 byes in a 9-12 round event, odds are you will place high enough to get money. It basically encourages more of these "career" mtg players to just do nothing with their lives but travel around to open after open (like Todd Anderson or Brad Nelson) since the byes system and SCG paying them for articles pretty much guarantees that their travel expenses will be paid for. Given that they are going back to having byes, I actually don't mind so much that the legacy will be 5k IQs. If you take out the attendance factor, mtg players with actual lives who are also decent at mtg have a much higher chance of getting money at a 5k were everyone is on the same playing field vs a 20k were a bunch of SCG favorites are all basically set up to cash unless they are really terrible.
    I hadn't considered this before, but it actually compounds Megadeus' point above as I suspect a lot of the losing the hardcore pro/grinder set does happens at the hands of obscure decks that have few pilots and that frequently end up X-1 early in the day only to get knocked off by something more consistent, powerful, or lucky. Winning your first two rounds at an open is obviously very important if you're hoping for a deep run, and byes are going to put the grinders squarely in the Delver bracket where the decks you face are much more predictable. It will be interesting to see what their sideboards look like when covering every possible matchup isn't nearly as important as shoring up the matchups that you expect to run into at 2-0 and 3-0.

  11. #31
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    Re: Changes to the SCG Opens in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by TheArchitect View Post
    Dropping this much legacy support sucks a lot of balls and completely overshadows the other terrible change they made: bring back byes to the opens. It seems incredibly wrong to me to give byes to your employees (grinders that writer) to increase their chance of winning and thus increase their image to help sell their articles. Although I have only played at GPs I have byes at, I still think it is a terrible idea. Having free wins feels like I am cheating. I only play in MTG tournaments maybe 0-2 times a month and luckily spiked GPTs, but for most people you get byes (for SCG or GPs) by just playing a lot. It does not seem to fair that out of players of equal skill the one that just plays more gets a significantly higher chance of placing at large events that (often skilled) people come out of the woodwork to play at.

    If you are better than average player (60%+ win rate) and have 2-3 byes in a 9-12 round event, odds are you will place high enough to get money. It basically encourages more of these "career" mtg players to just do nothing with their lives but travel around to open after open (like Todd Anderson or Brad Nelson) since the byes system and SCG paying them for articles pretty much guarantees that their travel expenses will be paid for. Given that they are going back to having byes, I actually don't mind so much that the legacy will be 5k IQs. If you take out the attendance factor, mtg players with actual lives who are also decent at mtg have a much higher chance of getting money at a 5k were everyone is on the same playing field vs a 20k were a bunch of SCG favorites are all basically set up to cash unless they are really terrible.
    Even aside the free wins, getting the byes means you don't have to get past as random a field as people starting from 0 do. You enter when then field has refined itself somewhat already, and can metagame against the more structured metagame with less regard to whatever random stuff under the Sun people might bring.

    EDIT: Ninja'd.
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  12. #32

    Re: Changes to the SCG Opens in 2015

    Was there a military coup at SCG or something? Between the Grand Prix that my mom's dogs could have organized better, the hilarious renaming of decks, the worse article content, and now this, I'm no longer very sympathetic to SCG. For the time being, I'll be switching my purchases elsewhere, and looking forward to other stores--like Tales of Adventure--starting their own Legacy series.

  13. #33
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    Re: Changes to the SCG Opens in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziveeman View Post
    The insane thing about this is that first place pays more than first place at a Grand Prix. Wow.
    That's not hard, GP price support wasn't that great to begin with, considering the player numbers.

  14. #34
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    Re: Changes to the SCG Opens in 2015

    From the comments section of the article: "Questions about our recent 2015 OP announcements? Please send them to directly to me at president@starcitygames.com & I'll answer them in a follow up article."

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    Re: Changes to the SCG Opens in 2015

    But, this also means Everyday Eternal will move to a live-streaming session on Sundays and possibly live-casting. Would y'all watch that? :P

    -Matt

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    Re: Changes to the SCG Opens in 2015

    Yeah, I'd be down for watching that.

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    Re: Changes to the SCG Opens in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    But, this also means Everyday Eternal will move to a live-streaming session on Sundays and possibly live-casting. Would y'all watch that? :P

    -Matt
    Good idea, I'd watch.

  18. #38
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    Re: Changes to the SCG Opens in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    But, this also means Everyday Eternal will move to a live-streaming session on Sundays and possibly live-casting. Would y'all watch that? :P

    -Matt

  19. #39

    Re: Changes to the SCG Opens in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziveeman View Post
    This was a change that inevitably had to happen. I don't think it's about Legacy, it's about getting rid of 10-11 rounds of Magic on Saturday that is a miserable experience for everyone. Sacrifices had to be made. Can you imagine if these would get large enough for 12 Swiss rounds? At least the 2014 structure accommodates the growth and possible scale of the Open Series.

    I hope they increase the number of Legacy main event weekends though. The insane thing about this is that first place pays more than first place at a Grand Prix. Wow.
    Only the first place gets more, all the other places get less. It just looks like better prizes but it isn't.

  20. #40
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    Re: Changes to the SCG Opens in 2015

    Obviously, this change by SCG is a net negative to the Legacy community, but while reading the article, I was thinking they made a mistake even before I got to their schedule (until then, I thought Standard and Legacy would be equally represented at the $20K Opens).

    The Standard $20K Opens are a pretty exciting change if you're a hardcore Standard player, and it might induce Standard grinders to travel slightly longer distances to attend events they otherwise wouldn't. But any increased attendance SCG might get at these new Opens would be offset by plenty of other factors including:

    - Casual Standard players who are unable or unwilling to commit to two days
    - Casual Standard players who are hardcore Legacy or Modern players who would no longer play in the Saturday event if you have to play Day 2 to even have a shot of prizing
    - Grinders who are competitive in Standard, but strongly prefer playing Legacy (or Modern), and would consider skipping the former despite the increased prestige SCG is trying to manufacture

    The vast majority of players at the current Standard Opens are casual players who think it's pretty cool that the SCG is in town, and while I imagine many of them would still play in the $20K Open, some of them will have schedule conflicts. In addition, keep in mind that SCG had already experimented with "Double Standard" events in 2012, and they were an unmitigated disaster, with the Sunday Standard Open having 38-52% fewer players than the Saturday one (in other words, comparable to what the attendance would have been with a Legacy format). It is unsure whether this can be attributed to scheduling conflicts (Sundays are generally more inconvenient) or player fatigue (a lot of players are probably put off by playing Standard for two straight days), but in any case, both these problems will plague the new proposed setup.

    In addition, you have players like myself who absolutely love Legacy and don't find Standard very appealing, but might have otherwise considered playing in Standard on Saturday to get some practice for the Invitational or to just hang out with friends. But to pay $50 to play a format that I don't even like, with the understanding that I have to play (and probably do reasonably well) on Day 2 to even min cash?! I would snap-drop from Standard to play Legacy on Sunday regardless of how I was doing, so there's simply no reason for me to register for the Saturday event anymore, since the practice simply isn't worth $50. I know I am far from the only player in my circle of friends who feels this way, and I imagine the sentiment is shared at least by some Modern players as well.

    Keep in mind that while the player base of Legacy and Modern players is significantly smaller than that of Standard players, the proportion of hardcore players in those formats (especially in Legacy) is significantly higher than the corresponding proportion among Standard players, and as a result, the total number of dedicated players in each format is more comparable than one might think. This is a large reason why attendance numbers for Legacy and Modern GPs are consistently higher than those for Standard GPs, so I don't think SCG's effort to emulate the Grand Prix model with their new Open series will be as successful as they would hope. There are a ton of Standard GPs within driving distance even in the often-neglected West Coast, and none of them have ever been appealing beyond the possibility of having a sweet Legacy side event.

    I must admit that I would be enthusiastic about these changes if the new Open Series schedule included a majority of Legacy Opens, rather than Standard, but that is only from my perspective as a hardcore Legacy fan. I still stand by the points I made that the entire concept of a two-day Open is a mistake for SCG, regardless of the choice of format for these Opens.

    Furthermore, changes have also been made to the Invitational format. I'm not a player who can justify traveling great distances to play Magic, even at a well-supported event like the Invitational. I am absolutely dismayed to find that the only Invitational I can reasonably attend next year (Seattle 2015) will be Standard/Modern. I find Standard absolutely unbearable, and while Modern is a considerable improvement, I consider it only tolerable. I would have been much more excited if it were a Modern/Legacy split with a Legacy Top 8, and I suspect many other players would have preferred it for the merits of those respective formats over Standard. For an Invitational event, it's not like attendance numbers or cost of entry into a format are significant concerns (as they would be in the Opens which draw more casual players), so it would have been much better to see SCG choose the more interesting and skill-testing formats. I've been qualified for Invitationals for almost three consecutive years now, and I have declined to participate in any (until likely the upcoming Seattle Invitational) because they just weren't appealing to me. The new changes are so much worse, and as a result, I have lost any incentive to ever play in local Super or Elite IQs, since the prize support on their own isn't very appealing and the Invitational bid has become pretty much useless to me.

    That being said, I don't think the sky is falling, and even with the significantly diminished exposure and prize support, SCG still does much more to help the Legacy community with its $5000 Premier IQs than most stores, and I intend to continue to attend these just as I would attend their Legacy Opens when possible. I do worry that the decreased exposure would cause innovation in the format to stagnate, although at the same time, I find that SCG's insistence on featuring their grinders at these Legacy Opens resulted in a significant "hive mind" mentality that may have been partially responsible for the decreased format diversity we've seen in recent years, so it's probably a push in that front.

    I am not at all concerned about loss of other Legacy events. I think the entire concept of SCG singlehandedly supporting the Legacy community is vastly overblown. Some of you may be aware that I've been maintaining a thread full of stores that support Legacy, so I am more in tune with regular weeklies and large events in North America than most. There are still large Legacy tournaments all throughout the United States, and SCG's decision has essentially no impact on tournament support anywhere else. I may be seeing things with rose-colored glasses because I'm fortunate enough to be in Seattle where we have one of the best Legacy scenes in the world, and the situation is much less optimistic in Podunk, Buttfucksville; but the Card Kingdom weeklies, let alone their weekend dual land events or those of other stores, represent in aggregate more exciting events to me than the occasional SCG Seattle Legacy Open. And now we're fortunate enough to have a second Card Kingdom "branch" (Mox Boarding House) opening up in Bellevue, with likely even more frequent dual land/high staple events.

    Just off the top of my head, I know there are similar awesome ones in Knightware, MTGDeals, the AZChamps.com Series, the Vancouver Classic, Jupiter Games, TOGIT, The Meadery, Tales of Adventure, Mythic Games, Bazaar of Moxen, Ovino, Prague Eternal, LCL, and many others. It is these local events that have always made up the vast majority of the Legacy experience, even as the SCG Open Series has taken up a disproportionate amount of the exposure (and justifiably so, as they have done an excellent job up until now!).

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