[Deck] Dredge

[chags]

I see the what you are saying and could see myself siding in as much hate as you guys but I do like firestorm right now with merfolk really popular and MM really popular. Perhaps testing will prove it is unnecessary but for now I like running slightly less hate answers and being able to use firestorm. Also 4eak I noticed that as well, I believe you two have convinced me to tweak my sb some and put my list more in line with these ones. Thanks for the help.

[Flan R-E]

question:

How is the sideboard impacted by the board-out plan?

From what I've seen of boarding plans people tend to board out breakthroughs for Firestorms, and shave off one-ofs for ancient grudges, but don't usually do both.

one one level this is a noob question, on another I think it's relatively underdiscussed.

[Adan]

The thing is that there are pretty different SBing approaches.
So far I have seen people taking out Breakthroughs to slowroll things in the postboard games, others have been taking out Careful Study instead of Btrhough so they can go broken as soon as they disposed a Relic.
And then Erik has written that he has cut random cards/1ofs/Dread Returns for his SB-cards which I've actually never read before. That's why his SB "guide" looks quite outside from the norm, but apparently it has worked out perfectly, so I guess you are more versatile in view of boarding than I thought before.

[Flan R-E]

I meant the question more like

"is firestorm better when you board out breakthrough for it or when you board out a putrid imp, dread return, careful study for it?"

or

"is ancient grudge better as a replacement for breakthrough or as a replacement for careful study?"

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

The thing is that there are pretty different SBing approaches.
So far I have seen people taking out Breakthroughs to slowroll things in the postboard games, others have been taking out Careful Study instead of Btrhough so they can go broken as soon as they disposed a Relic.
And then Erik has written that he has cut random cards/1ofs/Dread Returns for his SB-cards which I've actually never read before. That's why his SB "guide" looks quite outside from the norm, but apparently it has worked out perfectly, so I guess you are more versatile in view of boarding than I thought before.

The thought behind this boarding-method is that you are, in most cases, just removing one card of each category:

- from 12 to 11 Dredgers
- from 12 to 11 Draw-"spells"
- from 6 to 5 Sac.-outlets
- from 12 to 11 Discard-outlets

This method provides you the most flexibility by reducing the chances to have a Discard-outlet and a Dredger in your starting hand just slightly and also keeps the explosiveness of the deck with 11 Draw-"spells". If you're cutting 3-4 cards e.g. from the Draw-"spells" you may have a higher chance to get one Discard-outlet and a Dredger on your starting hand, but you lowered the chance of having gas given by Draw-"spells" significantly, which comes in handy so many situation post-board.

These are the thoughts my team, my friends and me came up with to remain Dredges' strength in consistance and reduce the weaknesses by playing anti-GY-hate. I hope you understand the idea behind this :D.


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I meant the question more like

"is firestorm better when you board out breakthrough for it or when you board out a putrid imp, dread return, careful study for it?"

or

"is ancient grudge better as a replacement for breakthrough or as a replacement for careful study?"

1. It depends. Boarding with Dredge is harder than with many other decks because you haven't that many bad cards in each matchup. Before I would board out Imps or Studies, I would at least board out 1 Breakthrough and 1 Dread Return. If you're playing against Merfolk, 2 Dread Return.

2. I would never ever cut a whole playset cards in the main for SB-cards. You're losing to much consistance which you really need after boarding. I always board like this:

- Aggro- or Control-/Combodeck? -> Aggro: board out one Putrid Imp, Control/Combo: board out one Tribe
- Do you need Dread Return targets for your matchup? -> no: take out one Dread Return; yes: let them in
- Do you play against Merfolk? -> no: if don't really need Dread Return, board out one; yes: board out all Dread Returns
- Do you play against Combo? -> no: leave all Ichorids in; yes: cut one Ichorid (because it is too slow sometimes)
- Against each deck: -> cut one Breakthrough, cut one Thug (Darkblast, if not needed)

There are your 3-4 slots I think :).

Thanks for the help.

You're welcome :).

[Gui]

I like your boarding plan a lot. I've been doing similar boardings, mostly because I dislike siding all my draw spells, specially careful study, which is underrated.

Now, I do some different moves:
Against merfolks, I always board Iona in. It's just too auto-win. I wonder if TA has some worth DR target as Iona against merfolks, but if I find nothing, then I'll start boarding DR out against them.

I believe Ichorid to be slow in most of the games against Combo, I'd board 2 or 3, depending on what I got as side. Usually 2, since I usually have 2 auto-win DR targets against them. I'm not testing either Brainstorm or Winds of Change as a sideboard card against combo, so I'm siding out all 3 Ichorids.

[chags]

Boarding out DR against fish is interesting, are you just worried about them having too many counters? I haven't had too many problems with fish countering DR thanks to cabal therapy. Both Iona and Elesh Norn pretty much finish the game immediately against fish which makes them very tempting to bring in for this match up.

EDIT: Do you just plan on beating them by recurring ichorids and getting zombies? That seems slow especially considering you don't run firestorm, I think fish can sometimes swarm faster then the ichorid plan can.

[I am the brainwasher]

Going down to less than 2 Ichorids postboardb is a crucial mistake IMO. I have tested it quite a few times and I was never satisfied with that. Boarding out 1 is fine and thats what I do most likeley (especially in the Combo MU's), but going below 2 Ichorids is just awful.
There are plenty of times where I wanted them badly but didnt had the Chance to have them and that turned me far away from that "Tech".
Especially against all decks where you are planning to seal the deal with a (additional) DR-Target; just relying on Moebas and 1st turn discardoutlets can be a big pain, more often than having Ichorids.

PS: Congratz Brot! Thanks for the report and decklist, it sadly seems that you cant rely on the official website... . Allover well done!

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Going down to less than 2 Ichorids postboardb is a crucial mistake IMO. I have tested it quite a few times and I was never satisfied with that. Boarding out 1 is fine and thats what I do most likeley (especially in the Combo MU's), but going below 2 Ichorids is just awful.
There are plenty of times where I wanted them badly but didnt had the Chance to have them and that turned me far away from that "Tech".
Especially against all decks where you are planning to seal the deal with a (additional) DR-Target; just relying on Moebas and 1st turn discardoutlets can be a big pain, more often than having Ichorids.

PS: Congratz Brot! Thanks for the report and decklist, it sadly seems that you cant rely on the official website... . Allover well done!

Yeah, you're right. You want at least 2 of them to generate many Tokens or just cast the Dread Return fast.

Thank you :).

Boarding out DR against fish is interesting, are you just worried about them having too many counters? I haven't had too many problems with fish countering DR thanks to cabal therapy. Both Iona and Elesh Norn pretty much finish the game immediately against fish which makes them very tempting to bring in for this match up.

EDIT: Do you just plan on beating them by recurring ichorids and getting zombies? That seems slow especially considering you don't run firestorm, I think fish can sometimes swarm faster then the ichorid plan can.

The problem of Dread Return is that they have got Cursecatcher. It is really bad, if you flashback Dread Return and all you get is just a lousy 7/7 creature with evasion. Sure, it's a 3 turn clock, they can't play any spells anymore and you may have Ichorids, but now imagine what will happen, if the Dread Return is countered. Yeah, you sacced 3 creatures for nothing. And that's the problem I'm seeing. You can't rely on those cards in a matchup where you get swarmed, even with Iona on blue because of Aether Vial. They just need 2-3 Lords and you're most likely done. That's why I would board out the Dread Returns. With Ichorids and Tokens to block a few guys it worked perfectly for me, even before NPH was released.

[iPhael]

Excellent responses Brok, you've been most insightful ^_^

Cheers on the great finish!

[a-slice-of-cake]

I might be doing this wrong, but I've been throwing some stuff together. This needs more testing, but I have so few good testing options where I am :(

Dudes
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
3 Golgari Thug
1 Angel of Despair

Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
1 Darkblast
3 Dread Return
3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below

Land
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel

Sideboard
4 Nature's Claim
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Firestorm
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Sadistic Hynotist

I've never played a deck that doesn't play Force of Will before... advice would be appreciated!

[HokusSchmokus]

I might be doing this wrong, but I've been throwing some stuff together. This needs more testing, but I have so few good testing options where I am :(

Dudes
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
3 Golgari Thug
1 Angel of Despair

Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
1 Darkblast
3 Dread Return
3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below

Land
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel

Sideboard
4 Nature's Claim
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Firestorm
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Sadistic Hynotist

I've never played a deck that doesn't play Force of Will before... advice would be appreciated!

First off, why the Angel of Despair? if you insist on having a Dread Return target MD , then I would at least consider something like Iona. If it is a metaslot though, it's perfectly fine. Also you might want to consider/test no DR targets main.

In the SB though, there are some things that need to be adressed:
Why the 2 Firestorms, why the 3 Leylines? While Leyline is indeed good against some sorts of combo, anything that isn't just UB can bounce it. I think the hypnotist alone is enough, your choice though.
With the 2 Firestorms I see one major problem: You need to draw it. With that I mean you need to ahve it in your opening hand, because you generally do not want to actually draw cards. Only having 2 is not going to help much imho.
I would just cut the Firestorms and Leylines and put something like Iona, Elesh Norn, Ray of Revelation or the like in it.

Hope I could help.

Edit: Also, -1 DR +1 Breakthrough MD

Edit2: Erik, what happened to Dennis and Julian at BoM?

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Edit2: Erik, what happened to Dennis and Julian at BoM?

They both had bad days. Dennis went 1-2-0 drop, Julian 2-4-0 (included 2 byes) drop.

@a-slice-of-cake: I think 14 lands are a bit too low. 15 might be the right number. You always want to cast your Discard-Outlets :).

[beau-ass]

I've been following posts for a while (about 16 months). Never felt that I could contribute (mmmmh :{).

Now I have a question for people that run Dredge;

In a meta where top 8's are soaked in MM's, can we do something with the card that I have liked for our deck for a while (and that has navigated a friend of mine to top 4's); Tolarian winds. The reason for this is;

1. I was told that instant speed spells are better than Sorcery's
2. The order of events; first discard, then draw.
3. As much as 6 cards can be drawn from it.
4. It doesn't cost cmc1.

Disadvantages;

1. It doesn't cantrip
2. It doesn't cost cmc1.

Any opinions?

[TheKingslayer]

Tolarian Winds has not seen play in this deck since before the creation of bridge from below- when it still ran zombie infestation.

I've been thinking the same thing, but I feel we would have to up the land count, unfortunately.

[HokusSchmokus]

I really don't think that it is needed to include sometimes sub-par draw spell just because of Mental Misstep.
Erik's results at BoM V have backed that up. Just play around it?

[Tinefol]

Facing 4x Misstep is not that much different from facing a combination of Daze/Spell Pierce. You could live with that, so what's so different with MM?

[Zirath]

Is there any reason the list from BoM is running Hypnotist? What match ups is it actually good against? It seems like it might be a little slow for combo and perform the same role as Iona or FKZ.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Yep, it performs the same role as Iona, but you can't DR 2 Ionas [that happens in some circumstances], so a 2nd DR-target is better. FKZ is also more dependant on Bridges than Hypnotist is. Also in the rare case that BOTH DR-targets [Iona & Hypnotist] resolve, the combo player will never be able to find back in the game.

[2nd_lawl]

Facing 4x Misstep is not that much different from facing a combination of Daze/Spell Pierce. You could live with that, so what's so different with MM?

It is actually VERY different. Neither daze nor spell peirce can threaten dredge on the play, and spell peirce cannot counter imp/tribe at all. Daze Can be played around with simply a 2nd land, Misstep cant really be "played around" (except with therapy). You just need Another discard outlet, If you dont see how this is fundamentally different, then that is pretty silly, and i feel like you are being intentionally obtuse. You have to assume that your blue opponents will now have a a counter for your t1 outlet 60+% of the time instead of 40, that is a fundamental shift in the matchup: and the same logic for why Goblins or Lands are weaker applies to non-led dredge. The Merfolk Matchup is unquestionably worse. The better question to ask is: Has the presence of MM led to a shift in the speed of the format where mono-blue or near-mono-blue counterspell decks are a significant portion of the meta, and if so, does the presence of these new very good matchups make up for the fact that the matchups against Merfolk and NO Variants are worse.