Miracle Control

[Einherjer]

Great you liked it!

Let me know which MU you are having trouble with. I'll answer in depth on Monday, once my last exam is done :)

Greetings

[ThoSha]

Are we actually discussing Personal Tutor and Chill? Like really?

Greetings

Yeah, why not?
Grinding burn, belcher and oops in 2mans is actually fun. :)

Anyone who has trouble against burn can pack some chills and is good to go.

[Einherjer]

That's.... that's not how deckbuilding works.

Greetings

[decan]

In general SB cards should be like a Swiss Army knife. Good for a lot of situations. Chill or that other crap is just to narrow. Unless you play in a local meta with 40% burn or whatever the deck to beat is.

On another note: I was wondering about graveyardhate.
I'm currently playing 2 RIP and 1 Relic in a Flash built à la Joe Lossett. But i wonder if thats the way to go. Usually against Rug, Bug Delver and Shardless BUG I board in 1 RIP and 1 Relic. What do you think about that? Im worried about Nullrod in the BUG builds. Which could result in 5 dead cards (Top+Relic). I like relic because in an early game state you can remove cards one by one and later just cycle it if they want to decay it or if it comes in midgame or lategame.

How do ya board against Rug, Bug Delver and Shardless BUG? Should i switch to Grafdiggers Cage or are there any other good options (other MU) and just SB 2 RIP for the previous match ups?

[Syntex]

Since burn just won a major event I expect to see more of it pop up. Now if a lot of burn shows I will be running CoP red. Chill does slow them down but a guide on t1 followed by double bolt/2xOne drops and a fireblast can seal the deal before chill is an issue. Not to mention you will most likely be fetching your life total down as well playing 9-10 fetches. I think with shusher CB is weaker but we have StP for him which they have no answer. Also when they play vortex and you follow up with the CoP red you can literally sit there doing nothing and watch them kill themselves. I think its a great answer to burn(better than chill IMHO) since it can be a tough matchup.

As for other sideboard cards I'm liking izzet Staticaster over the sulfur elemental. It hits revoker while not making stoneforge/angels hit harder and is the same cmc. It also helps vs elves and goblins. Could also kill bob and block too. I'm running one in my board for those reasons.


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[oarsman]

In general SB cards should be like a Swiss Army knife. Good for a lot of situations. Chill or that other crap is just to narrow. Unless you play in a local meta with 40% burn or whatever the deck to beat is.

On another note: I was wondering about graveyardhate.
I'm currently playing 2 RIP and 1 Relic in a Flash built à la Joe Lossett. But i wonder if thats the way to go. Usually against Rug, Bug Delver and Shardless BUG I board in 1 RIP and 1 Relic. What do you think about that? Im worried about Nullrod in the BUG builds. Which could result in 5 dead cards (Top+Relic). I like relic because in an early game state you can remove cards one by one and later just cycle it if they want to decay it or if it comes in midgame or lategame.

How do ya board against Rug, Bug Delver and Shardless BUG? Should i switch to Grafdiggers Cage or are there any other good options (other MU) and just SB 2 RIP for the previous match ups?

I'm actually playing 2 RIP and a Grafdigger's Cage, not a Relic, since it helps out against elves.

[Adryan]

I played a lot against Burn, and i can say for sure that even without SFM it's a good matchup. If you don't think so, i think something about your play& understanding of this deck is wrong.

[Dzra]

I played a lot against Burn, and i can say for sure that even without SFM it's a good matchup. If you don't think so, i think something about your play& understanding of this deck is wrong.

I wouldn't mind hearing your take on the matchup then because even getting out a Counterbalance against Burn doesn't guarantee a win. Fireblast, Hellspark, Shusher, Vortex, etc are all difficult to stop, not to mention that sometimes they can just run out a multitude of Instants and you get short on mana to rearrange Top for all of them. It seems like there are very few Burn games that end in a complete blowout in my favor.

[Adryan]

I wouldn't mind hearing your take on the matchup then because even getting out a Counterbalance against Burn doesn't guarantee a win. Fireblast, Hellspark, Shusher, Vortex, etc are all difficult to stop, not to mention that sometimes they can just run out a multitude of Instants and you get short on mana to rearrange Top for all of them. It seems like there are very few Burn games that end in a complete blowout in my favor.

I just borrowed the deck to a good friend of mine on Modo and today he played 4 times against Burn in the 2mans and went 8-1 in games. I guess we both are just extremely lucky. Other possibility is that we both only played against really bad guys and the true masters of Burn who can outplay us with their amazing skillintensive and complex deck keep hiding in the shadows.

I had a post several pages ago, where i talked a little bit of how to approach the burn MU.

Man seriously are we discussing the Burn MU?^^

[twndomn]

That's.... that's not how deckbuilding works.

Greetings

While I disagree about Chill, there're really not much going on in this thread recently. I say let people experiment with cute/obscure stuff. Let us fail and then discuss it.

Rather than Chill, I would use Celestial Purge. Not only it can take care Vortex, it can also serve as an extra removal in many match-ups, especially Liliana.

[Adryan]

I played this list for fun yesterday. I think it's worth more discussing than Chill. Any recommendations?

[YamiJoey]

Just play four Counterbalance and tell them to play a real deck. If we can beat Storm, we can beat the Storm deck that takes three turns to kill you.

I'm also fairly certain Sphinx's Revelation isn't good, ever since that one time I put one in as my fifteenth sideboard card and never wanted it. Ever.

I'm also getting really worried about the banned list. We're doing really well now, and we're beginning to warp the format. If Shardless BUG/BUG Delver suddenly take a hit in some way I'm pretty sure we'll see a T8 that's nearly all Miracles. We're starting to take 3-4 slots very regularly.

Also I'm playing four Jaces. I don't care how, something is getting removed. He is the best card we could ever hope to cast at basically every point in the game.

[TheArchitect]

I'm also getting really worried about the banned list.

Same. Wizards considers top a mistake and hates stuff like Top that suck up lots of time*. However, counter-top was played even more 6-4 years ago and never got a ban (just look at the OP in the Ban discussion thread). Basically every blue aggro-control or control deck had 3-4 Tops and 2-3 CB. What HAS changed since then is is WoTC mindset about what magic "should be": everyone should just be turning creatures sideways and miracles does not do that. Luckily that mindset rarely effects bans in legacy.

Its also worth remember that top makes a lot of other strategies possible besides miracles: Painter and Nic Fit run 3-4 tops, and Junk, deadguy, or Esper Control often run 1-2 tops too.


*Top only sucks up time if you are slow or inexperienced with it (but not that wizards cares, look at eggs in modern). I'll shameless brag here and say that in my 50+ Games at competitive REL with miracles I have only 1 non-intentional draw and it was because my opponent was slow playing and I was tilted and didn't just call a judge. I have had probably 4 games where I went 1-0-1 though, but as far as I can remember only one 0-1-1.

[Ltj999]

J
I'm also getting really worried about the banned list.

I'm not too worried about this. I think that the delver decks make up a much larger portion of the t8 meta in a much more consistent way than miracles does. Certainly miracles has gotten more popular, but it still hasn't seen nearly the success of the delver decks. Example is that there have been top 8's made up of nearly all delver archetypes.

[Adryan]

I was worried too, because Wotc has a lot of data on Magic Online like Matchup % etc. Maybe they could think that Miracle is too good.

But gladly nothing happened^^. It's really sad, that a ban of SDT would completely kill this deck and make it a lot weaker without hurting many other decks in the format.

[Malakai]

I was worried too, because Wotc has a lot of data on Magic Online like Matchup % etc. Maybe they could think that Miracle is too good.

But gladly nothing happened^^. It's really sad, that a ban of SDT would completely kill this deck and make it a lot weaker without hurting many other decks in the format.

Honestly, given their history of poor software, I doubt they have both have the data and the technical expertise to use it.

[Adryan]

Honestly, given their history of poor software, I doubt they have both have the data and the technical expertise to use it.

When they banned Seething Song they used Data they got from Magic Online (the % of how often Storm was violating the Turn 4 Rule with Turn 3 kills).

[Syntex]

Well the thing with miracles unlike eggs is that although you will go to time you don't take an extra half hour on turns like you would eggs.

In the end miracles takes a skilled person to play it well. If the skilled players are picking it up and winning then that's fine. Now if it comes to a point where we have a it placing top 8 80% of the time for months then there may be a problem but I think its just a matter of time before people realize how to play against us. Now the deck isn't THAT old so there are still people who don't know how to handle it. Also they printed cards against us like abrupt decay which is a great answer. Overall if they don't like how well this deck does they can print more cards like decay and let the players do the work. I think delver has more to fear of a ban, if any at all, then us.


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[Malakai]

Everyone keeps talking about people learning how to play against miracles. That already happened; miracles has been a tier 1 deck before, and fallen from that position. The only tool we've gotten is Council's Judgement, and that's too recent to account for many results. Miracles is good again because the metagame is allowing it to be good again.

[YamiJoey]

Everyone keeps talking about people learning how to play against miracles. That already happened; miracles has been a tier 1 deck before, and fallen from that position. The only tool we've gotten is Council's Judgement, and that's too recent to account for many results. Miracles is good again because the metagame is allowing it to be good again.

We've been on a pretty decent tear in the past month, TBF. We're on 5 T8's and 2 T16 placings on the SCG circuit.

But when I say it like that it sounds less impressive, so maybe I'm wrong.