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Thread: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

  1. #1121
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I saw this list as well, I'm going to use it as a basis for building the deck. I also thought Creeping Chill would be excellent, possibly cutting the Nether Shadow's to get it in.
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  2. #1122

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Maybe I'm missing it: what's so special about the list in your eyes?

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Daize View Post
    Maybe I'm missing it: what's so special about the list in your eyes?
    I can't speak for anyone else, but it caught my eye for having 4x Dread Return (stock in mana-less?) alongside 4 of these:



    Also, 2 of these in the sideboard:



    Because we always take the draw if possible, making your opponent stumble even for 1 turn allows for a decent chance at erasing the loss of tempo. That's at least the way I interpret it. Dread Returning a disruptive 5/6 flyer is pretty nice, I imagine sometimes better than Flayer of the Hatebound, considering no copies of Balustrade Spy. Again, I am brand new to this deck, I've only played against it a couple times. It seems pretty sexy though, especially with the Force of Will sideboard.
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  4. #1124

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I like reinventing/rediscovering the wheel :-D. Yes, that's nice. Though recurring a chancellor isn't the most interesting thing you can do it's a possibility

  5. #1125
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Daize View Post
    I like reinventing/rediscovering the wheel :-D. Yes, that's nice. Though recurring a chancellor isn't the most interesting thing you can do it's a possibility
    It's old tech rather than new. So just rediscovering, not reinventing. Chancellor is even mentioned in the primer and probably also in the primer in the old Manaless thread. As for the Pharaoh, I've been SB'ing 3 since at least 2015, as far as what I can find back in this thread.

    @Mr. Safety: I turned the Chancellors into Creeping Chills. While Chancellor is good vs. some bad MUs and some hate it's live only 40% of the time whereas all 4 Creeping Chill will be in your library 60% of the time. This is my current 75:

    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Thug
    3 Shambling Shell

    4 Ichorid
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Narcomoeba

    4 Creeping Chill
    3 Balustrade Spy
    1 Flayer of the Hatebound
    1 Progenitus

    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Street Wraith

    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dread Return
    4 Bridge from Below

    Sideboard:
    3 Vengeful Pharaoh
    4 Contagion
    4 Unmask
    4 Mindbreak Trap
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

  6. #1126

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Personally I much prefer the Chancellor. If you're facing decks with turn 1 discard, it mostly means the difference between standing a chance and an auto-loss. Not having that chancellor mostly means never getting the chance of putting a dredger in the graveyard.

  7. #1127
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    It's old tech rather than new. So just rediscovering, not reinventing. Chancellor is even mentioned in the primer and probably also in the primer in the old Manaless thread. As for the Pharaoh, I've been SB'ing 3 since at least 2015, as far as what I can find back in this thread.

    @Mr. Safety: I turned the Chancellors into Creeping Chills. While Chancellor is good vs. some bad MUs and some hate it's live only 40% of the time whereas all 4 Creeping Chill will be in your library 60% of the time. This is my current 75:

    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    4 Golgari Thug
    3 Shambling Shell

    4 Ichorid
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Nether Shadow
    4 Narcomoeba

    4 Creeping Chill
    3 Balustrade Spy
    1 Flayer of the Hatebound
    1 Progenitus

    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Street Wraith

    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Dread Return
    4 Bridge from Below

    Sideboard:
    3 Vengeful Pharaoh
    4 Contagion
    4 Unmask
    4 Mindbreak Trap
    Thanks for posting the list! I definitely agree that I want Creeping Chill, I was just trying to have a less impactful way to squeeze it in. I was thinking Nether Shadow was the weakest of the creatures, so that was where I was thinking to cut. Without having any experience with the deck I will defer to your judgment. I could always sideboard the Chancellors, no problem.
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  8. #1128
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Recurring creatures are the power source for your deck, you really don't want to skimp on those.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Recurring creatures are the power source for your deck, you really don't want to skimp on those.
    Thanks! My inexperience with the deck is definitely where that came from. I appreciate the experienced advice. It looks like the only slot to cut is Chancellor. I'll try it both ways and see which version seems to be more appropriate. Alternative sideboard:

    4x Force of Will
    3x Chancellor of the Annex
    2x Ashen Rider
    2x Mindbreak Trap
    4x Faerie Macabre
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  10. #1130
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Yeah, there are very few flex slots. You actually need most of the cards just to function properly.
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Does anyone recommend Sphinx of Foresight? Only good with maindeck Force of Will?
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  12. #1132

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Does anyone recommend Sphinx of Foresight? Only good with maindeck Force of Will?
    It was perfectly fine when I tested it, just more generic consistency and resiliency for a deck that thrives off of it IMO.

  13. #1133
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Fortune View Post
    It was perfectly fine when I tested it, just more generic consistency and resiliency for a deck that thrives off of it IMO.
    Maindeck Forces? How many were you playing?
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  14. #1134

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    So, I lost my whole post that I spent a few hours writing on this deck. That little auto-save notification is false insurance!

    Anyways. I'll keep it short now: Prized Amalgam is not that good, Nether is worse, Shell is still really bad, Creeping Chill is good against RDW and Containment/Cage, Lotleth is nice, and Sphinx of Foresight is very decent.

    My working list:

    4 Faerie Macabre
    4 GGT
    4 GT
    3 Gris
    4 Ichorid
    1 Lotleth Giant
    4 Narc
    4 Phantasmagorian
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Sphinx of Foresight
    4 Stinky
    4 Streetwraith

    4 Bridge

    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Creeping Chill
    4 Dread Return

    I like Macabre mb because it fights Reanimator and Storm first game, which are both faster than Manaless. It also handles Snap nicely. Postboard it deters Surgical, the most played gyhate. It's a godsend because Prized cannot pull its own weight if both Narc and Ich are surged. Foresight becomes better than Thug in hands where you already have a dredger, and it can find hate or Streetwraiths.

  15. #1135

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Prized Amalgam is not that good, Nether is worse, Shell is still really bad, Creeping Chill is good against RDW and Containment/Cage, Lotleth is nice, and Sphinx of Foresight is very decent.
    Sorry to hear you lost your post - I do think a lot of important context is wasted here though. Having a 1/1 on the board is mostly worse than having a 3/3 on the board, but that's not what's a decent comparison is either. Nether Shadow gets onto the board all by itself, Amalgam doesn't. Shell may be bad, but as much as that an island is bad in a deck that uses mana - though having a very basic land is better than having none.

    Sorry to say, but probably your post would help a lot more if you'd give some context in which those cards were helpful (where others wouldn't be) :-) .

  16. #1136
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Hi,


    I would like to present you my actual version of Manaless.

    explanation :

    I have been playing the blue version for a long time (4 years?) and tried to update it each time it was possible, always thinking about the meta and how to adapt after each tournament. The conclusion was most of the time :
    - Manaless is extremely strong game 1(not a surprise!).
    - negative match up are most of the time not Blue deck : Loam, Lands, Dark Depth, infect, reanimator, show and tell, storm, death and taxes, classic dredge...
    - The opponent who know Manaless always let you start game 2 and you loose 1 turn.
    - the gravehate entered game 2-3 is not a "big" problem: Leyline of the void : you loose (Nothing to do even with FOW), Surgical extraction : annoying but you can play.


    Finally, most of bad matchup are a combinaison of :
    - Faster than Manaless, and starting game 2 is a problem.
    - Use crop rotation/bojuka bog and it's easily a game lost.
    - use discard turn 1 and make us loosing 1 turn more.


    I propose some solutions about these problems:
    - Faster than Manaless, and starting game 2 is a problem. =====> starting game 2-3 ! using discard card on US : Unmask, and Lion 's eye diamond
    - Use crop rotation/bojuka bog and it's easily a game lost. =====> play leyline of sanctity, but we will loose 1 turn more
    - use discard turn 1 and make us loosing 1 turn more. =====> starting game 2-3 as explaned

    Finally, using discard cards on us, and playing leyline are very compatible stratégies. In your dream, You can perfectly play first your game 2-3, have leyline on the board before the beguinning of the game and discard turn 1 your dredger even after 2-3 Mulligans ! Moreover, the bad matchup decks are not blue deck so you can try something without have the risk to be countered !
    I added serum powder to increase the % to have a good hand (you are allowed to Mulligan several times, it's a chance), and switched the classic faerie macabre by 4 Leyline of the Void, thanks to the increased powed given by serum powder.


    The list :


    " The Leyline Manaless "


    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Golgari Thug
    4 Stinkweed Imp

    4 Ichorid
    4 Prized Amalgam
    4 Narcomoeba
    4 Nether Shadow

    4 Street Wraith
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Bridge from Below
    4 dread return
    3 Balustrade Spy

    4 Phantasmagorian
    1 Flayer of the Hatebound

    4 Unmask
    4 Serum Powder


    SB: 4 Lion 's eye diamond
    SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
    SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
    SB: 3 Contagion

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I had to make choices, because I wanted to enter 20 cards:
    4 Unmask, 4 Lion 's eye diamond, 4 Serum Powder, 4 Leyline of Sanctity, 4 Leyline of the Void.
    Finally, Unmask and Serum Powder are cards which can fit the easiest main deck. I reduced the number of dredger thanks to the add of these 8 cards (and of course to make place).

    For the choice between Flayer of the Hatebound / Lotleth Giant, I prefer Flayer of the Hatebound because I found him better against Land matchup, because of The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. In a manaless blue version, Lotleth Giant is better.


    The subboard table I use game 2-3 :


    Burn
    Loam
    Lands
    Storm
    Dark Depths
    Reanimator
    Dredge

    + 4 Leyline of Sanctity (burn/loam/Lands/storm/dark dephts)
    OR + 4 Leyline of the Void (Reanimator/ Dredge)

    +4 Lion 's eye diamond
    -3 Balustrade Spy
    -1 Flayer of the Hatebound
    -2 dread return
    -1 Phantasmagorian
    -1 Prized Amalgam

    Against these deck, you MUST have your Leyline (white or black), this mean you will Mulligan untill you will have it. We add also the 4 Lion 's eye diamond to have the possibility to discard our dredger even with 3 cards in hand.


    Eldrazi Aggro
    Death & Taxes
    Affinity
    Goblins

    +3 Contagion
    +4 Lion 's eye diamond
    - 4 Serum Powder
    -1 Phantasmagorian
    -1 Flayer of the Hatebound
    -1 Prized Amalgam

    Add 4 Lion 's eye diamond is to discard turn 1 and earn time. The 3 Contagion will really help you. the problem is what to remove main deck :( . I decided to remove Serum Powder because i Mulligan but not aggressively against these decks. i ll see in the future if I ll keep the serum and remove the dread return.



    Grixis Control
    Grixis Delver

    Nothing to change. You can try to add the 4 Leyline of Sanctity




    Show and Tell
    Dragon Stompy

    +4 Lion 's eye diamond
    -4 Serum Powder

    Be the faster as you can !


    UWx Control 40 9 %
    Stoneblade 35 7 %
    Maverick 7 1 %
    Merfolk 3 1%
    Death's Shadow 9 2 %

    +3 Contagion
    -3 Serum Powder

    Contagion will be your friend. For white deck against Containment Priest, for the other ones to decrease their threats.


    Infect
    Elves

    +3 Contagion
    +4 Lion 's eye diamond
    -4 Serum Powder
    -1 Phantasmagorian
    -1 Flayer of the Hatebound
    -1 Prized Amalgam

    You wants to go as fast a possible, specially against infect, to have one or more creature on board.


    UR Delver

    +4 Leyline of Sanctity
    -3 Balustrade Spy
    -1 Flayer of the Hatebound

    Leyline will be a nice bullet is you have it directly, and i hesitate to subboard as Burn (leyline+diamond) to Mulligan very strongly. But finally i decided just to add leyline because you have also other treaths to resolve also.


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I I have to sum with this manaless version, you decrease the win% against blue deck (they usually play surgical extraction and you enter nothing against) but these deck were already positive matchup. To compense, you have now a real chance against horrible matchup. You will see, sometime the deck will spread in your hand, it's a version a little less regular than the usual list of manaless, but a little more explosive thanks to the fact that you can play first and you can Mulligan. I hope you will like my list !



    Bougnat

  17. #1137

    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Sound reasoning! Do you have any results with it?

    The discard part relies on them indeed letting you go first - but it's a nice mindgame. Leyline of Sanctity is beautiful and is imho worth the 1 turn delay, considering how quick of a deck you are.

  18. #1138
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I had some decent results with led out of the sb a while ago (probe was legal and didn't run unmask)

    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post949601

    I really liked pairing led with faithless after sb. Led out of sb is pretty legit for manaless, especially with all of the thoughtseize now. It does probably make sense to play leyline(s) now.
    -rob

  19. #1139
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    I played this list on 3 small tournament (12 players) witch mean nothing. I have done 1 big tournament (129 players, and finished 29th, egality with the 14th.
    LED can make miracles
    - i won game 1
    - my opponent game 2 let me start
    - play LED
    - play street wraith , resp. Sacrifice LED, discard full hand and take 3 black
    - dredge 5 with stinkweed imp
    - play imp !
    - play therapy on my opponent turn 1 on the play with dredge manaless !

  20. #1140
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    Re: [Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

    Miracles is a pretty good MU for any Manaless lis tbh. You just ignore pretty much everything they do
    Quote Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack View Post
    DAMMIT ECHELON

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