You know what? I totally agree Volt. I returned to Magic following a 5 year hiatus to find Affinity in full swing. I just about quit again as the game felt stagnant and unfun (is that a word?). I wouldn't mind so much that this card exists if it were not for the fact that the win enabled by Disciple is so unstoppable. For what it's worth, the health of the format and the game as a whole is what I want, just like you. I just don't agree that Flash is exactly the root of the problem. I could live with a deck that could accidently win with Gamekeeper or Academy Rector because there is a greater element of chance at work there. It would still go off turn 0/1 but so can other combo decks in the format.
At least Affinity requires some skill to play. Hulk Flash requires none.Originally Posted by frogboy
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How often will flash-gamekeeper net you a turn 1 kill? Turn 2? Turn 3?
What creature do you grab that wins the game on turn 1 without also having anger in the yard or something like that? Will that creature lose to StP?
Compare it to TES and the like and see how bad it is. The card that breaks this deck is hulk, because he lets you get an almost unhatable win that happens in the same turn the combo does. The problem with hulk and flash is that hulk is a card that lets you tutor 10+ cards out of your library into play.
Flash isn't that unfair, Protean Hulk aside, Flash for Gamekeeper can still be answers with Swords to Plowshares, Pithing Needle, Tormod's Crypt, Null Rod etc. and it has to tutor for the Salvagers, LED, Chromatic and go off on the next turn unless it has the LED in hand.
Flash on Sundering Titan, Bogardon Hellkite and Symbiotic Wurm aren't all that degenerate.
Worldgorger Dragon, Hermit Druid and the power level de-errata are a precedence, and those are the best cases to construct an argument on.
This is not entirely accurate; while the mechanics of assembling and playing the combo aren't overly complicated, mulligan decisions and tuning the main and board are. Like, sure, there's "derf derf" aspects to it and it's less complex than, say, a Brain Freeze mirror, but it's not like it's devoid of skill.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
My primary concern here is the value of my Resets.
So you're saying it'll be awesome because the skill of the format will be reduced to who can tune their deck for the mirror/maybe Landstill or Thresh better?
Yeah, that sounds fucking svg.
Early one morning while making the round,
I took a shot of cocaine and I shot my woman down;
I went right home and I went to bed,
I stuck that lovin' .44 beneath my head.
This argument reminds me of "Necro isn't the problem, that card is bad. Ban Dark Ritual."
There is just one problem... In this situation you could assign the "Problem Card" and "Enabler" roll to many different elements. The Problem Card could be Hulk because it's the win card. It could be Flash because without it this combo wouldn't exist and it'd bust... bad.... What can you replace Flash with? Through the Breach, Sneak Attack? Workable but slow and suceptible to hate as you have from the casting of Breach or the Activation of sneak til your end step before the combo takes off... Show and Tell doesn't give you the leaves play ability, you'd need a sacrifice outlet... Eureka? Doubt it....
The question would be, if they were to remove Hulk from the formula, would the other possible Flash decks be resilent enough to survive and be comparable to TES and the like...
However, as someone whom has been on Hiatus for a while and is trying to find interest in the game again... I can't say I'd be too happy to go to a tournament and sit across from "Hi, Play or Draw? You play? Okay, I'll win before I even have an Upkeep. Have a nice day."
The combo seems a bit too ridiculous.
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You cannot know the sweetness of Victory, without first dwelling in the agony of Defeat.
I did some goldfishing on MWS with this list last night, and I have to say, it's extremely powerful. I even pit it against my totally unrestricted Academy deck (turn one kill 95% of the time) and this deck managed to win roughly two-fifths of the time it went first, and basically none of the times it went second. However, that could probably be rectified to a certain extent by using the Gemstone Caverns / additional ESG route. For reference, here's the Academy list:
// Lands
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Tolarian Academy
// Spells
4 Demonic Tutor
3 Stroke of Genius
4 Time Walk
4 Time Spiral
4 Mind Over Matter
4 Windfall
4 Intuition
4 Black Lotus
4 Mana Vault
4 Sol Ring
4 Mana Crypt
4 Mox Jet
4 Mox Sapphire
This list also takes about zero skill to play. It's a sad thing when a Legacy deck without power can actually beat this thing.
Sounds like another Tinker epidemic for those of you who played Extended back in the day.
At any rate, I don't think the deck is nearly as broken as everyone is making it out to be. It is clearly the strongest combo deck in the format but I have had games where the deck simply loses to itself (like all combo), and many games where I could have won easily if I was goldfishing but the disruption spell or 2 that hit me killed me.
You are also forgetting how badly Chalice effects this deck... if you play Chalice for 0, you cut off so much of the deck.
This deck isn't unbeatable. It's just really really strong. People constantly bitch and moan about how Goblin Lackey, Aether Vial, and Goblin Ringleader put deck design constraints on the format. This just seems like another of such constraints. Is pushing Goblins to MD 4 Chalices and sideboard appropriate combo hate a bad idea? I don't think it is. The most devastating argument I can think of is the fact that making combo such a strong force in the metagame makes weaker aggro strategies less viable. While this is definitely important, I think Wizards is trying to push combo at the moment. EtW, Rite of Flame, Pacts, so on and so forth seem to suggest so.
What aggro decks are truly going to get hosed by this anyway? Faerie Stompy still presents a favorable matchup for it. UWb Fish and UGx Threshold do as well. B/r Red Death and B/w Sui do also.
Affinity can MD Chalice, possibly even Duress/Therapy or Force of Will.
Goblins can MD Chalice, possibly even Therapy or Stifle.
Angel Stompy will have to evolve with cards like Glowrider and True Believer MD.
Zoo will need to adapt more control elements like Duress/Therapy.
Survival may get pushed out.
Control decks will have to go the 4c Landstill-style route of disruption and start packing cards like Duress, Stifle, and Force of Will.
Again, I still don't think the deck is that broken. While it clearly is very very powerful, I don't think it's unbeatable, and I definitely think tweaking decks based on this new monster will make existing decks easily capable of answering it.
With all due respect, Hanni, you're wrong. If left unchecked, this deck will comprise Tier 1 all by itself. Unbeatable? As in never loses? No, of course not. But it will warp the format, and not in a good way. Much diversity will be removed from the format.
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Hanni - Are you aware that all your arguments would apply equally to Yawgmoth's Will?
Listen to yourself. This isn't broken because decks can start MDing CotV and Duress to make it what, 50-50? Maybe? I think you greatly over-estimate CotV's strength against the deck.
It hasn't even hit critical mass yet. When FS becomes legal, and the deck is finally polished, it'll easily win by turn 2 nearly 100% of the time, and randomly on turn 0.
How on earth can you justify having that in the format, but having anything else on the banned list?
Early one morning while making the round,
I took a shot of cocaine and I shot my woman down;
I went right home and I went to bed,
I stuck that lovin' .44 beneath my head.
Pacts will not be legal till after the GP, currently this deck can run worldly tutor which is not hit by chalice for 0. Daze is not hit for chalice for 1 or 0, FoW is always good. CoTV can only affect this combo when set to 2. Meddling mage is much better but still very easy to get around.
Layline of the Void, Sifle, Child, and Trickbind are on the short list of cards that can stop the combo once it goes off. Meddling mage just prolongs the enevitable if they have a decent build, and Top/Counterbalance engine takes forever to get going (relatively speaking).
And this is all assuming they don't have the turn 1 win on the play or multiple counterspells. This combo is completely degenerate even without Future Sight. And I could even argue that it is better since responding to discard with Worldly tutor trumps Summoners pact.
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
I have happily contributed to the cause by sending an email to Mr. Forsythe as well which outlines our severe problem here and implores him to take action and save the format from near destruction.
Most of the cards that I suggest adding are versatile cards that answer a ton of other decks as well. Chalice is already being played in a ton of decks... putting it in a few other ones that either sideboard it or can easily adjust to fit it in doesn't seem like it's that hard. Not only that, but most of the cards I suggest not only effect other various combo decks, they also effect other decks. Duress isn't only good against combo, it's good against control and aggro/control too.
What happens if this deck loses it's Flash to Extirpate? I can go on and on with the amount of cards able to neuter this deck... all without affecting deck design to the point where it's specifically there to neuter this deck and only this deck.
This deck runs 11 maindeck spells that not only are completely dead draws, having too many in hand causes you to be unable to combo out... you either need to Brainstorm them back, which puts further constraints on the deck to combo out, or you hardcast the Disciples and allow them to be susceptible to removal.
Beyond that, I do understand that the deck has yet to be fine-tuned and polished to the point where it could be a concern. I still don't think this deck is nearly as strong as everyone keeps going on and on about. I've been playing this deck literally for the last 8 hours and, while the deck is clearly strong, I don't think it's super busted. Yea, elves.dec doesn't do anything against it. Oh well.
Stax could actually become viable again.
Toss Trinisphere in Angel Stompy.
If I'm forced to run MD answers to Goblin Lackey, whether it be StP or whatever, why should I not be forced to run answers like maindeck Stifle or Duress?
I'm not saying entirely that I'm for keeping the deck around, but I'm not convinced that this deck is the be-all end-all of the format. It's definitely beatable by a ton of the existing decks out there... and those that don't can easily tune themselves to beat it with cards that aren't narrow and only effective against this one deck. I think it's a pretty interesting shift for the format.
I'm with Hanni on this one. What's wrong with making all of the other decks in the format MD hate to try and go even with this deck? For serial.
There was a young lady named Valarie
Who started to count every calorie
Said her boss in disgust,
'If you lose half your bust
then you'll only be worth half your salary.'
I honestly have to say that this deck is the most resilient combo deck in legacy. I play tested against my friend over lunch (he has two huge boxes of rares and good uncommons/commons in the back of his car that he carries around all the time, also he's got everything from FS) and he won 6/9 games against me playing Red Death, and then 4/5 against threshold. And most of the time, he goes off on turn 1 or 2. Its so resilient that I puked when this happened:
He went first:
his Turn 1: Lotus petal, Island go.
Me Turn 1: draw, Dark rit, Duress, he mystical tutors in responce for Flash, I see a hand of this:
Protean Hulk, Pact of Negation, underground sea, Shifting Wall
Sinkhole his Island, go.
his Turn 2: Draw, underground sea, flash, gets 4 disciples and 6 guys.
Even if I had a force of will and could play it, he would just pact of negation it, which means that he still goes off.
FLASH IS BROKEN, BAN IT!
Another funny game:
I go first:
Me: Strand, trop, goose, go.
Him: Lotus, Island, S. pact (I daze), Flash->Hulk (I force), he forces my force removing a brainstorm and i proceed to lose the game.
I know those are some godly draws, but the fact is that the deck wins so damn quick through removal and hate.
Answer me this, have you ever seen a two card combo deck that can win at instant speed for two mana and still have countermagic backup that costs them nothing? (Daze/FoW) Have you ever faced a combo deck that has access to Countermagic/Duress,Therapy/Zantid Swarm + the best tutors available? I would argue that Magic has yet to see a more resiliant combo deck than Flash Hulk. The deck just made an entire archetype unviable (agro). How is that justified?
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
Let me make this simple. Any deck that is likely to go off on turn 1, on the play, and not be stopped by Force of Will, is broken.
Team Info-Ninja: Shhh... We don't exist.
I've been testing variations of this deck for the past month, and I'd have to say it's better than you think it is. (Of course, that testing was based on a meta that was unprepared for the deck, so maybe I'll be proved wrong...)
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