Would you like to see True-Name Nemesis gone?

[kiblast]

White Nemesis would have been as bad as blue imho. Imagine 4 White Nemesis in Death and Taxes. With 4 Aether Vials and 3 Cavern of Souls, as well as 4 Stoneforge Mystic to fetch your equipment.

[lordofthepit]

The problem isn't that there aren't any answers that can beat show and tell, it's that there's no single hate card for the diversity of Show and Tell. Sure, when the show and tell player puts in Emrakul and you put in Sower of Temptation, that's awesome, but when they put in Omniscience and you put in Sower, it sucks. Just last week I put in Humility and my opponent put in Hive Mind. Remember when Goblins used to sideboard Angel of Despair just to beat show and tell? And how they stopped because even that wasn't doing it? I've watched show and tell put in omniscience, the opponent put in Angel of Despair, and then the S&T player cunning wished for trickbind and won anyway.

The only way Death and Taxes is able to beat S&T is because they essentially have a 15 card sideboard against the deck in the main. You can fight Show and Tell with cards like Managara and Karakas, Sneak Attack with Phyrexian Revoker, and all the cantrips with Thalia. It takes an overwhelming hate bear deck to make that matchup even remotely winnable. D&T isn't an aggro deck, it's a prison deck.

My point is that there's an entire class of aggro decks whose interaction is solely with your life total that has been completely eliminated from the format. Maverick, Zoo, Burn, and to some extent Goblins. This entire theater of decks has been removed from the metagame, and I think the metagame is worse for it. Yes, combo decks should beat fast aggro decks. It's important to keep aggro decks from taking over the format that combo be favored in the matchup. However, when the combo decks force the aggro decks out of the format entirely, I personally consider that a bad thing. We had a healthy and interesting format when Zoo was trying to race Storm, and sometimes accomplishing that, but now the Zoo decks just don't have a chance. The pendulum has swung too far in the combo players direction, and the tempo and midrange decks in the format are giving us the illusion of a diverse metagame when it's really just delver vs deathrite vs show and tell.

When Pat Cox and Kenny Mayer give up on Zoo, that should tell you something :)

I'd like to offer some comments as a Zoo player.

I've been playing Zoo for a long time, and I've jammed it in fields full of Survival of the Fittest, Natural Order, Show and Tell, Lion's Eye Diamond, Mental Misstep, Stoneforge Mystic, and Terminus to reasonable success. Of course, I've had to tweak my deck at each point to adjust to the new metagame, and it's not the only deck I play (I've played roughly 20% of my sanctioned matches with Zoo since the start of 2011, a figure that has steadily decreased the more recently you look). However, when I've tweaked it to the point where I feel it's a reasonable choice in the meta, I will play the deck, even in large ones with lots at stake, fully expecting to do well. The most recent Zoo lists look dramatically from the ones that were dominating the format four years ago, and I suspect that the reason Zoo has generally been considered dead is because players refused to adapt.

I have considered possible changes I want to make to combat a True-Name Nemesis metagame, but I decided that it was best just to play my own True-Name Nemesis decks for now. Or play combo to go over the top. Or play Miracles to sweep the board. Or Imperial Painter to just blast the fuck out of all the blue decks and to punish greedy mana bases. But certainly not Zoo.

What's really frustrating about True-Name Nemesis from a Zoo perspective is that it turns the deck's best strength--a plethora of removal for creatures and artifacts/enchantments--into a liability. The deck literally has many more answers to a resolved Show and Tell than it does to True-Name Nemesis (Knight of the Reliquary, Karakas, Oblivion Ring, Ethersworn Canonist, Qasali Pridemage, Gaddock Teeg, etc., depending on what you're playing against). When your opponent casts Show and Tell, he's probably blown his load if you have an answer, and if he dropped a fatty that you have no answer for, you can still try to race. That's actually a better situation than racing a 3-mana creature that serves as a Maze of Ith + The Abyss which will eventually strap on a piece of equipment to dominate the game, since unlike combo decks, TNN decks are also backed up by plenty of removal to make combat difficult.

I don't want to focus exclusively on the Zoo perspective though--I love the Legacy format, I have access to almost any deck, and I feel comfortable piloting many of them. I don't think True-Name Nemesis should be banned (yet) because I'm one of those people who thinks a card shouldn't be banned until it actually proves to be degenerate. If Zoo perishes as an archetype because of metagame forces, then so be it: decks need to adapt to the format. But that being said, I don't see how True-Name Nemesis adds anything meaningful to the format at all, and this is a sentiment echoed by players that identify with a wide range of archetypes.

[ESG]

I don't think True-Name Nemesis should be banned (yet) because I'm one of those people who thinks a card shouldn't be banned until it actually proves to be degenerate.

The card was born degenerate. Protection from a player is an absolutely ridiculous ability that should not exist. Bans happen for all sorts of reasons. People forget that tournament dominance is only one reason to ban a card.

To all the people who said that TNN would kill RUG, check out the legacy decks that have been doing well since TNN was released:

http://tcdecks.net/metagame.php?form...&fecha=2013-11

RUG delver's best month by a LOOOOONNNNGshot

How is this at all surprising? The forecast was that True-Name Nemesis will push the format more toward combo decks (since those kill the opponent before TNN becomes relevant). RUG Delver is the premier anti-combo deck, so a field full of combo decks will be good for RUG. Also, this overlooks the fact that some RUG decks play TNN!

[Patrunkenphat7]

White Nemesis would have been as bad as blue imho. Imagine 4 White Nemesis in Death and Taxes. With 4 Aether Vials and 3 Cavern of Souls, as well as 4 Stoneforge Mystic to fetch your equipment.

Yes that would be insanely good, but right now you just slam it into most blue decks. I like cards that go well in Death and Taxes because that deck will never be TOO dominant even though it is very good for a variety of reasons.

[thecrav]

I'm just gonna come out and say what we've all been thinking this whole time.

True Name Nemesis is an Illuminati plot to make non-blue aggro unviable.

[Rabbi]

"Protection from player" is like a joke ability from Unglued. Ban this crap from legacy asap.

[T-101]

I don't like the card, and I think wizards should have thought more about it before printing as is.

However, this is Legacy. We adapt, we evolve. I'm willing to give this card a few months before I cry for anything like a ban. There are answers, we should start playing them more, or play the card ourselves.

[davelin]

Remember when people said M14, Theros and DGM didnt have any true legacy staples? Be careful what you wish for...

[Rood]

Rabbi hit this thread on the head.

[jimmythegreek]

Im gonna play tnn in my goblin deck with four stoneforge mystics that way creature based decks will be viable again.

[Tormod]

Unban Wild Nactl!

Huh? you mean this bitchfest isn't about Modern?

(seriously questioning the number of people who have actually played with and against TNN and generated some real data. Its a real card but its also not that amazing. I've already started to cut them from my list and am considering selling the ones I have while they are inflated because, this is Legacy and TNN has some really tough competition to compete with on the curve)

[PirateKing]

this is Legacy and TNN has some really tough competition to compete with on the curve

This is actually my real fear, that people will sideboard better, the format will adapt, and people will realize it's not that scary. But it will always be a threat, it will always require an answer. It will be played in enough decks that every sideboard suddenly lost 2~3 slots. If it was better, then I'd worry less, because then the format would buckle and it would be prime for banning. But really it's not. It's Delver good, which means lots of people are playing, everybody saw it coming, everybody has a sideboard answer for it.

Used to be you had sideboard answers for archetypes. Tormod's Crypt for grave stuff, Reanimator or Dredge, didn't matter. Wrath of God for creatures, Goblins, Zoo again, whole genre hated on. Now it seems more and more sideboard cards are put in for specific single cards. Goblin list with Angel of Despair in the side? Specifically for Show & Tell and nothing else. Sudden uptick of Golgari Charm and Zealous Persecution in the side? Is it because of the success of Elves and D&T? Nope, True-Name Nemesis.

The threat-answer relationship has started to become so narrow and specific. That is how I see the state of the game. That's why I complain.

[rockout]

I lol'd when I saw this thread title. That didn't take long. Has it even been a month? As much as I hate the card for being printed, it's just another creature that has a stipulation on how to answer it. I thought geist was horrible to play against, now we have geist on steroids that requires R&D to give us more ways to combat it like a one drop enchantment that gives all creatures -1/-1. Then there will be a thread about said one drop enchantment being too good.

[Dice_Box]

Used to be you had sideboard answers for archetypes. Tormod's Crypt for grave stuff, Reanimator or Dredge, didn't matter. Wrath of God for creatures, Goblins, Zoo again, whole genre hated on. Now it seems more and more sideboard cards are put in for specific single cards. Goblin list with Angel of Despair in the side? Specifically for Show & Tell and nothing else. Sudden uptick of Golgari Charm and Zealous Persecution in the side? Is it because of the success of Elves and D&T? Nope, True-Name Nemesis.

I wonder sometimes if cards are printed just to push hate of a given type. Grave hate was not good enough to be maindeck. DRS and Ooze. Elves, DnT and what not are starting to take over. Push Hosers. No need to ban. Now you can push one type of card to be a given in sideboards and fix an issue. Not that I think this is completely true, but I feel in part it is.

I lol'd when I saw this thread title. That didn't take long. Has it even been a month? As much as I hate the card for being printed, it's just another creature that has a stipulation on how to answer it. I thought geist was horrible to play against, now we have geist on steroids that requires R&D to give us more ways to combat it like a one drop enchantment that gives all creatures -1/-1. Then there will be a thread about said one drop enchantment being too good.

Because killing Elves, Goblins, DnT, Delver and the other already failing midrange creature decks in one move sounds like such a good idea to me. (Thought I would start that thread...)

[Tormod]

If you really look at the format, what has True-Name Nemesis actually done?

It hasn't pushed out any archetypes out (please don't tell me TNN pushed out Zoo)
If anything its added to format diversity and breathed life into the into UW Stoneblade for almost 10 month were placing only as well as nic fit and burn decks. It given bant aggro a new look. Mono Blue tempo finally has a pair of legs. All these are fair archeypes... really not that scary.

[TsumiBand]

I wonder sometimes if cards are printed just to push hate of a given type. Grave hate was not good enough to be maindeck. DRS and Ooze. Elves, DnT and what not are starting to take over. Push Hosers. No need to ban. Now you can push one type of card to be a given in sideboards and fix an issue. Not that I think this is completely true, but I feel in part it is.

Except, this doesn't necessarily make corner-case cards better against the older matchups than it did before.

I know sometimes WotC says stuff like, "man, we put this HUGE plant in (insert expansion here) for sideboards to deal with (some deck) in (some format), we can't believe it didn't take off". I strongly suspect that it's just an issue of sample size -- they test something in-office with their Approved Sideboard Technology Certifiers, it passes, then they give it to the world and the world all tests it and goes, "the fuck? this is a pile."

I mean, I know card strength is ever-changing, but it isn't like Engineered Plague becomes a better answer to Elves just because someone's playing Stoneblade with TNN. If it wasn't worth the slot beforehand, I suspect it's actually worse now, because it may have replaced your old tech, right? You can't just double-up your answers all the time in the board: so if you have a Tier 1 answer to decks A and B, and test a Tier 2 answer against and find it less good than Tier 1 -- but deck H is forcing your hand, and you still have to consider decks R, F, and Horse -- by choosing the Tier 2 answer, your game against those decks is necessarily *worse* than it was before, right? It's not the end of the world or anything, but it's not like the cards become better just because of one three-drop. I dunno.

EDIT: Also it looks like these are different phenomena being compared. Printing DRS and Ooze brings a higher, more diverse density of graveyard hate -- that's proactive. Printing TNN doesn't necessarily hurt Elves; other people sideboarding in Golgari Charm to deal with TNN *might* hurt Elves, but on the whole it's probably just something they can deal with by like having more Lords or being douchey and playing like Wirewood Herald or whatever -- but it's not *a better card* than it was before, it's still Golgari Charm v. Elves. It just happens to be brought in for the TNN.dec matchup, because it's as good as it gets. Having "only okay" answers be more prevalent is actually kind of better for Elves, isn't it?

[jimmythegreek]

Its kinda scary that blue now has efficient beaters (delver, tnn ). It's almost like wizards was thinking "what's the only aspect of magic that blue doesn't completely dominate?)and then gave it to them.

[Julian23]

Watch out for Tolarian Elves in M15!

[Koby]

Depth Charge

Instant
Deal 3 damage to target creature or player.
KABOOOOMMM!

Totally happening next set.

[Dzra]

Because killing Elves, Goblins, DnT, Delver and the other already failing midrange creature decks in one move sounds like such a good idea to me. (Thought I would start that thread...)

I really don't think Nemesis has killed Elves, DNT, or Delver. Goblins has fallen a lot out of favor recently due to a number of factors (SNT especially), so it's tough to evaluate.

Nemesis by itself really isn't a problem for Goblins or Elves as they can both swarm over the top (Piledriver seems good there). Like always, those decks have trouble if a creature gets equipped with a Jitte... not a whole lot has probably changed there.

DNT is hardly dead and has simply adjusted by playing more fliers. Delver is still ever-present and even won the GP; I'm not sure what your point there was. If Nemesis killed anything, it is the midranged GBx decks like BUG and Jund that rely on trading cards and picking up 2-for-1s... but even that has yet to be seen.

I really hate Nemesis's design, but I don't think the meta is exactly in upheaval over it.