Of course I'm going to MD FoW's, but was wondering it's enough to protect me.Originally Posted by deviant
About the matchups, this deck has a decent game against control, a little less than Solidarity but still quite good winnable. I'm not afraid if an opponent plays BBS or Landstill.
Aren't the 12 Cantrips not overkill. You say you want to go for a quick win and the cantrips are the worst cards in the deck during combo( sans lands), so if you want to win T2 / T4 you won't play more than 2 cantrips pre combo. I would seem that 8 cantrips would be more than enough. Especially if you want turn 2 to play Merchant Scroll. Especially Serum Visions is bad.
I will probably change the list a little around, but the basic looks strong. Thanks. I will give a report about next week.
BB
That cc point about hurkyl's recall / rebuild is a valid one. ( I was wondering why I had rebuild in my sideboard instead of hurkyl's. There must have been a reason.. :D )
And the 12 cantrips are really good during combo 'cause they're cheap and it's the untap power that might become a problem during combo, not the draw power, which is amazing with scrolls, meditates and ideas.
And the most important thing about them is that you play only 16 lands and you really want to see exactly 3 of them in your side of the table on yout third turn. No more and no less. Cantrips help a lot. Make some unkeepable hands good actually.
That sb stifle is, for one, against gaea's blessing. I did not have more than one brain freeze, and since some people are still under the misconception that the card is good against solidarity, I was a little worried that I might face some of the mishate. It's good against other storm-combos too (occasionally) and it's so versatile that I wanted it for that reason too. (You never know what's gonna happen and I had no idea what will the meta look like at that point.)
It is however, one of those slots that have more to do with preferences than actual card selection.
Last edited by deviant; 02-04-2008 at 01:22 AM.
I apologize to necro such an old post, but posting here will be better than creating a new one. I was wondering that what do you guys/girls think of:
Ponder - [Sorcery] [Casting cost: U] [Set: Lorwyn]
Look at the top three cards of your library, then put them back in any order. You may shuffle your library. Draw a card.
A nifty little cantrip from Lorwyn, that I think may not seem too bad.
Also I see that the deck is running Force of Will. Whats your opinion on...
Pact of Negation - [Instant] [Casting cost:] [Set: Future Sight]
Pact of Negation is blue. Counter target spell. At the beginning of your next upkeep, pay 3UU. If you don't, you lose the game.
Since when you are going to go off, you plan on ending it right there and then. Perhaps Pact of Negation can be used as subtitute for Force of Will?
Thanks.
I've always played ponder over every cantrip that isn't named brainstorm.
Seriousy, Ponder is an additional suffle-effect if it needs to be (strenghtens brainstorm) and if you're in trouble, it digs 4 deep where sleight of hand digs 2, and serum visions.. well it digs 4 also, IF you have an additional draw-spell.
So in my book it's outright better card.
Pact sucks. I'm sorry. I wish it didn't. If you want an additional counter in your wish-board, play misdirection there. FoW is not only to protect your comboing, it stops the shit you don't like (CotV-1, CB..). Pact does not. You just shouldn't need pact when you try to combo.
If you want to evolve this deck - play remand. Seriouly, I don't get it why it wasn't incorporated here in the beginning, it's awesome.
It buys you time, cantrips, helps against dodging counterspells and does cool shit with BF. Storm of 7 is a lot easier to pull out than a storm of 17.
Alright, so, I sold my Resets. And I'm still contemplating whether to make my new combo deck of choice Ichorid or to tinker around with Sorcery-speed Tide builds for awhile.
My biggest issue with Spring Tide is that Snap/CoF sucks. Mogg Fanatic tends to be the biggest thing to mess this up, but STP and the like don't help either. However, I played with Permanent Waves awhile and didn't really like Mind over Matter either. It felt slow and sort of clunky.
So my question is, is there a reason no middle ground is ever played? Can you play Candelabra of Tawnos in Spring Tide without playing the MoM? Done in this manner, it would be immune to things like Krosan Grip if held back until you're going off (You play it, it resolves, your priority still, you activate it.), and if you get enough of them out, you can always Turnabout them instead of your lands to ramp up mana.
Spring Tide experts advice appreciated.
To put it short: Without testing it sounds like inefficient win-more.
When you combo you usually have only 2-3 lands in play and one tide played (you drop the 3-4th on the way), so the advantage candelabra as an untap-spell would bring is.. insufficient. Before it becomes ridiculously powerful and at that point you usually could just win the game instead of showing-off.
I mean; untap 1-2 lands is about the same you get with faeries but those you can bounce-replay-bounce-cycle. Or play and block with them to buy time. Snap can also buy time. And turnabout - buys time, fishes counterspells, untaps. (You can also sb into a shitty faerie-stompy if you want to turn some heads.)
This deck can be more interactive than most combos, the obvious downside is vulnerability to shit like fanatic. Nevertheless, much like one crypt doesn't stop ichorid, one removal doesn't stop this - you just need to play around it. Versatility is what candelabra lacks.
Seriously though - play those remands. They help everywhere.
These are at least my first-impressions on the matter and I might of course be totally wrong.
And as for your combo-deck: do both. Build Ichorid and fool around with this one, it's not as bad as people give it credit for.
If the opponent is playing gobbos and has a fanatic in play I strongly suggest to bounce their X/2 or X/3 creatures. Other than that, my advices are:
- Play Ichorid
- Re-buy those Resets
I'm a Solidarity player too, and after testing a while you feel dirty playing all those sorceries. If I had to choose a sorcery speed storm combo it would be Fetchland Tendrils.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
Agreed, but what did you cut for them?
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity - Seneca, Roman dramatist
While I don't view myself as a Spring Tide expert, I can definitely tell you that you should play 4x Candelabra. I'm also certain that any sorcery speed High Tide deck should also play Mind Over Matter. A resolved Mind over Matter means that you never need to draw another untap effect. As long as you can generate card advantage you will not lose the game. You can play weaker spells like Cloud of Faeries, but you risk fizzling off too little mana to play the better spells the deck wants to play. Mind over Matter makes the deck more consistent by providing a permanent untap effect and its synergy with Candelabra can't be overlooked either.
That's a 6-mana spell. You need other untap-effects to resolve that, and then you possibly need to win a serious counter-war. Then you need to have useless cards in your hand to discard (preferably lands, which you have after you're already very close to winning (7+ storm now with remands!)). Also, we already have to find a high tide in order to do anything relevant, so I don't like the idea of being absolutely dependant on more (untutorable) cards.
You also now have a combo that takes it up the &$½# from a certain split-second instant that everyone and their mother is running because of counter/top.
About the Remands:
I basically switched my serum visions for them as an experiment and left it at that. I also maindecked one bf (would want 2) and only run 2 wishes atm. (Would want more, but I'm also pondering if they could be entirely cutted, because they're not that great here. (Though I think this is a bad idea.)
I don't have a finely-tuned list to present, but I know for sure that it would include 3-4 remands. Just try them out, they make the deck better.
Since I have quite a lot of experience with Spring Tide (tested it with my friend Sebastian Ofner for months before GP Lille - he made Day 2 with it), I will try to adress some of the questions:
- @Tacosnape: Spring Tide and Permanent Waves play very differently. Spring Tide constantly comboes out on turn 3, whereas Permanent Waves is slower (turn 4) but less immune to creature hate.
There is a reason why nobody runs Candelabra in Spring Tide: Spring Tide's speed is defined by the untap engine of CoF and Snap, which is actually quite strong (and much faster than Solidarity's and Permanent Waves' engine). Candelabra would make the deck much slower. Cards like Candelabra and Reset want you to play as many lands as possible before you combo off, maximizing their effect. Spring Tide on the other hand doesn't. You can normally combo off with two lands in play and drop the third one in the middle of your combo (before casting the first Turnabout). So, in my opinion, Candelabra doesn't fit into Spring Tide, because it takes away from it's strenghth (the speed), without adding enough.
- Remand: You don't want to play this in Spring Tide. Seriously, have you guys actually tested this or are you suggesting it simply, because it works in Solidarity? There is a major difference here... Spring Tide doesn't want to keep mana open during it's first turns... it wants to play cards like Ponder, Sleight of Hand, and - most importantly - Merchant Scroll. You simply cannot afford to keep two mana open on turn two just for the possibility to play Remand on your opponent's spells. You want to find your missing combo piece and combo off the next turn. This makes Remand a very bad card pre-combo (this is much different to Solidarity, because there is no reason to not leave mana open before the combo, because all your spells are Instants). Since it is very bad pre-combo and you can't afford to use it, it is a very subpar card to run in the first place. Also, this deck has much more draw power (Ideas Unbound in addition to Meditate) and it can afford to run only a few win conditions, because you will end up drawing most of your deck anyways when you combo off. For GP Lille, we decided to run only 1 Brain Freeze maindeck and 1 Cunning Wish, because between your draw spells and Merchant Scroll, you're guaranteed to find them once the combo is rolling. Before that, Brain Freeze (and Remand) are just too clunky.
Sometimes you have to read between the minds.
++ T8ing all over Europe since 2005 ++
++ Team aYb - all your base (are belong to us) ++
Yes. When it's clear waters, remand is useless. But if this is the case, it's not going to get into your way either. But when troubles arise, it's really good. You can't always combo to storm 17, and it's even more troublesome when you've forced something and are facing a clock of only a few turns. Storm 7 is possible.
Against Faerie Stompy and counterslivers (two losses in the champs where I played spring tide came to these.) when they have an actual clock and counter-backup it's really good to get to tempo a bit. You don't need to go off on your 3rd turn, if I can wait, I usually like to wait to turn 4-5 because then you really don't need to push anything and the risk of fizzling is close to 0 (if not disturbed). Against counter-heavy control, you just can't combo on your 3rd turn. Playing through 2-3 counterspells is just too much that early. (That's a serious issue in my meta and that might distort my views since this is not, I understand, a common problem.)
Granted, I mulled to 5 twice and to 6 once against both these matchups, but that alone doesn't justify the trouble I had against them. Clock with counterbackup would be easier if you had a turn or so extra. (read. 2nd turn remand.)
EDIT: why would you want to play sleight of hand when ponder exists? Was it a "typo" or do you play like 16 cantrips?
And yet again, I'm thinking if it's the disgustingly blue-oriented metagame I have that makes me so fond of remands..
Seriously though, try them with your frind offman if you haven't already. I was happy without them till I tried the out.
Imagine the following hand on turn two (you have two lands in play):When it's clear waters, remand is useless. But if this is the case, it's not going to get into your way either.
Island, Merchant Scroll, Ideas Unbound, Snap, Turnabout, Remand
Would you keep the mana open to use Remand, or would you rather Merchant Scroll for High Tide to improve your hand? Against which deck would you keep the mana open to play Remand? Isn't Remand in this case not only a dead card, but also a hinderance for your combo (it could be a draw spell instead)?
Also, how many copies of Brain Freeze da you run? To constantly use Remand during the combo (with 7 storm), you need to find a Brain Freeze, as well as a Remand... I only run like 1 Brain Freeze in the maindeck to minimize the dead cards you don't want to see before you combo off. Remand would need at least two or three copies of Brain Freeze to consistantly go for the Storm 7 plan.
I know what you're talking about, I have been playing Solidarity for years now. Our German metagame is infested by Aggro Control, and I know that Remand is a nice card in those matchups for Solidarity, but mainly, because it is not dead as often as it is in this deck. You can afford to cast it turn 2 to counter their Tarmogoyf to buy you some time, because you don't have to make that descision before you pass your second turn...Playing through 2-3 counterspells is just too much that early. (That's a serious issue in my meta and that might distort my views since this is not, I understand, a common problem.)
If you really want to improve this matchup, try either Defense Grid in the SB (a must counter for Thresh), or more copies of Brain Freeze. With 4 Brain Freezes and Merchant Scroll, you can easily have 2 or three of them in your hand by turn 5 or 6. This is much better than having a single copy of Brain Freeze and Remand, because it doesn't cost as much mana and they can't counter the Remand to survive. You just have to start a counter war over your High Tide or your draw spell and then end the turn with a storm count of 5 or 6 with multiple Brain Freezes. Multiple Brain Freezes turn almost any blue based control matchup into an autowin, if they don't run something like Counterbalance.
I play 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, and 4 Sleight of Hand since it is superior to Serum Visions.why would you want to play sleight of hand when ponder exists? Was it a "typo" or do you play like 16 cantrips?
Sometimes you have to read between the minds.
++ T8ing all over Europe since 2005 ++
++ Team aYb - all your base (are belong to us) ++
First thing I want to say now is that this conversation is one I deeply appreciate. This deck has not been touched in ages and it is truly a shame, since it's actually a pretty good deck to lure people into legacy. (This way I got back into magic anyway :) )
Anyway, just wanted to thank Lukas Preus.
"Imagine the following hand on turn two (you have two lands in play):
Island, Merchant Scroll, Ideas Unbound, Snap, Turnabout, Remand
Would you keep the mana open to use Remand, or would you rather Merchant Scroll for High Tide to improve your hand? Against which deck would you keep the mana open to play Remand? Isn't Remand in this case not only a dead card, but also a hindrance for your combo (it could be a draw spell instead)?"
If they run "islands", you can't really afford to trade the scroll with daze/spell snare anyway -> wait. You are on no clock and if the game goes long enough, you have a good hand for that (turnabout, remand, scroll). You might also be able to remand something and get an opening to scroll next turn.
If they run something indicating aggro, you can wait and remand their 2-drop. If they're goblins with lackey/vial out (or some other deck that can kill you fast and don't need spells for that, like ichorid) go for scroll and try to kill them asap.
If they are combo, you can either race them or play remand on some of their spells, depends really much on how their side of the table looks like and if they mulled and all. To put it blunt: can they kill you next turn? If they can, remand just might have saved you. If they can't, scroll and win next turn, maybe with some neat remand tricks with all those untap-effects but light draw-capacity.
In my opinion that hand is a lot better with remand in it. You have scroll yes, but you only have a draw-3 as your draw-power. That's not something you really want to rely on. I've seen too many blank-blank-blank-blanks that I only feel safe to combo if I can dig 6+deep. (Deep6er?!WTF?) (have a brainstorm or ponder in addition of at least ideas.)
You also have a land-drop there, so the "time-walk" would be really useful, getting to combo with 3 lands is perfectly fine, but getting to combo with three lands and be able to drop a fetch-land later makes life just a little too easy.
And for those BF's. I play one md. I have not finalized my list and like I have said (?) I'd like to have 2 md. I do, however, have 4 scrolls and 2 wishes to get them. (1sb)
(On the other hand, I totally agree with wanting as little "dead" cards in the md as possible.)
- And I do play defense grids in my sb. (They are a must.) I also play spell snares there. (used to play... disrupt i think.)
- Also, I don't see a reason to consistently go for the "storm 7 -plan". It just kinda happens. When you have a storm of ~13 don't you ever have those moments when you draw 4, and then brainstorm and then ponder and all you see is lands, FoW's and untap-effects?
After comboing for while the draws start to go bad. It's a relief to know that all you need is six mana (easy at that point) and the missing "combo-piece". (remand or bf)
And about those cantrips (sorry for the length):
I played brainstorms, ponders and serum visions before remands. I cannot see how sleight of hand is better than any of those.
Compare it to serum visions: Sleight digs 2 deep. SV digs "3". The only situation where sleigh is better is when you need to topdeck something now, and that's already a lost cause. Visions puts you in a better position to play that draw spell in your hand - you probably draw gas.
And in the first 1-2 turns, when you might struggle to make those land-drops, visions is the second best of the four. Brainstorm isn't good at this, if they're non-lands you're screwed. Sleight digs 2 deep and if they're not lands, maybe the next card is. Ponder is obviously awesome, digs "4" if need be. Visions gets three non-lands out of your way if it doesn't hit, that's one more than what sleight does.
So I would state that in this deck the best cantrips are in this order:
1&2) Brainstorm & Ponder
3) Serum Visions
4) Sleight of Hand
(And as a side note: I first cutted visions from ponder's way but then learned better.)
And as far as ***** goes: I consider that to be a favorable match-up. In the champs where I played this (no remands back then) I faced two white-splashing with md m.mages. Went 4-0. Back then counter-top wasn't everywhere though :)
***** just doesn't put you on a clock fast enough and they don't really have that much of a counter-backup either.
Have you tested remands btw Lukas? I'm not talking out of my ass you know, I seriously think there should be some in the md. Don't know what the md should exactly look like though..
I want to share some of my thoughts here as well. I don't have that much experience with Spring Tide (I played at 1 or 2 tournaments I think, before I got my Resets) but I have been playing Solidarity for quite some time now.
I'd like to emphasize that Spring Tide cannot function anywhere near equally to Solidarity or Permanent Waves. Unlike Spring Tide, these decks have way stronger late-games than this deck does, and therefore act similarly to a control deck. Spring Tide can't accomplish this result, because it utilises untappers that are palyed to be fast, NOT to be especially strong. Therefore, Spring Tide will need to resolve a High Tide before it can win at all, which is an issue both Solidarty and Permanent Waves don't have (at least not in the very late game).
Spring Tide should focus on maintaining a healthy balance between on one side speed, and on the other side disruption and consistency. Really the only thing that makes this deck interesting, is the fact that it does have this balance. It's right between faster Tendrills-based decks and combo-control decks like Solidarity and Aluren.
For this very reason, I don't think Remand is a strong card in this deck. Remand generally has 3 purposes:
1) Delay the game
2) Copy Brain Freeze
3) Generate cardadvantage by Remanding your own spells in response to counters.
If Spring Tide does indeed has the speed-consistency balance I explained above, I don't think 1) should really be an issue. The only decks that are truely faster than you, are faster combo decks and Remand really isn't too strong against those decks.
I suppose 2) could be a reason to run Remand, but, as said earlier, you need to find a Brain Freeze to use Remand first.
3) is barely an option, because this deck can't delay the game as long as it wants, and therefore can't use this technique very efficiently.
Deviant, could you please explain why you see Thresh as a positive matchup?
"Part of me belives that Barrin taught me meditation simply to shut me up."
-Ertai, wizard adept
http://solidarityprimer.proboards85.com/index.cgi
Like I said, it doesn't have much of a clock and neither does it have infinite counterspells like UW-landstill does. You have enough time to combo at leisure after they run out of counters. Somehow, this is also the mu I'm most comfortable with. All they really have is FoW since daze, and to some extent even double daze can be played around within the time limit they provide you with.
I haven't tested against the newest lists though, my opinion is based on testing against the UG list that won worlds or something. (the one with shitloads of counterspells) And in tournament play Meddling Mage wasn't much of a concern. (That was also the first tournament I played after ~5 years of not playing magic, so I probably didn't play perfectly :) )
Back then counter/top wasn't everywhere though, now it is. That's why I said I think of it as a favourable mu. Back then I considered and opening of tropical island as a bye.
All the points made about remand are valid btw. I'm seriously starting to doubt myself. I did however, just find someone who "agrees with me":
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=7303
(It's an old list though. And no fetches probably because he must have anticipated a lot of stifle, judging by the amount of blue in top8 he must have been on the mark. Or I don't know.)
I find this somewhat interesting, but I'm not convinced the speed of using the Cloud of Faeries/Snap is worth the vulnerability it brings as well as it doesn't untap all of your lands. If you are planning to go off with only 3 lands then its true that Cloud of Faeries/Snap at least untap 2/3s of your lands, but the problem is that if you do go longer in the game then Cloud of Faeries/Snap diminish in their effectiveness. I'm just wondering if Permanent Waves is the evolution of Spring Tide. Is Cloud of Faeries/Snap or Candelabra/Mind over Matter the better choice? I am sure I'm biased, but I feel that Candle/MoM is better because I've tried both.
This seems like a misconception. Solidarity has a higher mana curve and has a much harder time finding lands early in the game. I find that many smart control players can steal wins from Solidarity simply by utilizing their early counters on Impulses and obvious "I need mana" Brainstorms. Spring Tide doesn't have this problem as much since it's cantrips can dig further, it runs more of them in the one-drop category, and eight of them impose that the unsuspecting player counter the spell coming after it instead. Solidarity has major consistency issues in GETTING to that stage, especially against decks that run cards like Stifle, Force Spike, Ancestral Visions, and Duress, but once it does reach that stage, then it's generally lights out. Spring Tide really only has problems late-game when its few maindeck metagame/personal customization slots don't help in that department (well, or it hits the proverbial Stifle wall and craps out.)
Permanent Waves has the exact same number of lands as Solidarity, although it's cantrips are quite a bit better. I'll admit that Waves has a better late-game than Spring Tide because I don't see or understand why it wouldn't, but I don't see how Spring Tide can't be effective late either.
Based on the knowledge that I knew (or remembered might be more like it) in 2005-2006, the reason many late-game cards weren't discussed is because, at that time, people felt that additional Cunning Wishes and Brain Freezes were better choices for making the deck have a better late-game than many of the other cards suggested. I don't 100% know what is and isn't applicable about information that is a few years old now, but outside of Ponder and Wipe Away (Spell Snare probably came out after then too), IMHO I really haven't seen any new cards for this deck whatsoever regardless of what point in the game they work the best. I don't see why somebody couldn't run 1 Candelabra in here in order to add another untap spell though.
Threshold isn't a great matchup IMHO, but it can be a lot better depending on what it is running and it isn't running. UGr Threshold is favorable since many of them don't run Thoughts of Ruin anymore and their reach really isn't that impressive. UGw Threshold is favorable too because Meddling Mage really doesn't hurt all that much and Armageddon isn't run as much. UGrw Threshold is probably the easiest since it is the least likely to run Counterbalance and Spell Snares over removal. UGb Threshold is a total nightmare because Thoughtseize hurts and Counterbalance usually follows behind it. UG Threshold runs more annoying cards like Stifles and extra Snares over StPs and the matchup really isn't that good.
Regardless of Threshold variant though, CB =,
, and
.
Finally, there are four things in general to remember about Snap:
- Goblin Warchief is a 2/2, not a 2/1, and is critical to Goblins beating you early.
- Cephalid Breakfast needs two creatures on the board in order to win.
- Meddling Mage hates it to death.
- The 2nd High Tide is an untap spell of sorts even if Snap won't work.
If this sounds like a lot of theory and not much "logical thinking", then I apologize far in advance. The idea isn't to scare anybody off; it's just to get more discussion started.
WHAT? No, just no.
I really disagree here. It is a fact that Solidarity has a higher mana curve than Spring Tide, but really, the difference isn't that big. It certainly won't make the difference in control matchups for finding land at least, especially because Solidarity runs 2 more land. In a version with 4 Opt, it's very rare you miss your first 3-4 land drops.
Countering early cantrips as a control player is in my opinion the worst thing you can do. Usually, Solidarity runs more cantrips than Spring Tide (4 Brainstorm, 4 Impulse, 4 Opt and 2 Flash of Insight) and I don't think the deck really cares if it's being slowed down by the opponent. The counters will usually be the only thing control players have to fight you, and using them early probably means they will be out of options for the next couple of turns.
Another reason Spring Tide doesn't have a strong late-game, is the fact that it absolutely needs to resolve a High Tide in order to win the game. The opponent could just focus all of his counters on that card, and the Spring Tide player won't ever be able to produce enough storm.
"Part of me belives that Barrin taught me meditation simply to shut me up."
-Ertai, wizard adept
http://solidarityprimer.proboards85.com/index.cgi
Solidarity runs more land and does have more cantrips; however, those cantrips are so completely inferior at finding land (and costing more mana) that Solidarity has to take quite a few more mulligans to get land than Spring Tide does. In addition, Solidarity almost always needs 4 lands to win the game instead of 3 even with, total number of lands combined as well, relatively equivalent land-searching abilities.
Your second paragraph is very worrisome to me. Your objective is to win the game, not play by the "philosophical rules". MUC, for example, can't beat Solidarity by trying to be the late-game deck; it has to be the aggressor and take chances early or scoop. Any control deck that thinks it doesn't have the better late-game has to (1) establish a reasonable clock and (2) make sure that said clock is good enough. Solidarity can probably laugh through 4 FoWs and 4 C-spells with 7 mana and the better components but it has a ridiculously harder time with less mana or less major components.
Speaking of which, I generally have no problems winning with Spring Tide once I reach seven mana without High Tide. By that time, my hand is loaded with the cards that I want and I've probably chucked multiple Turnabouts at you by then on top of multiple High Tides. Of course, that's pending on Daze and the opponent's deck and other instances of the like, but playing eleven-thirteen cards before the Brain Freeze isn't very hard when my opponents' counters will be two of them.
No deck is completely perfect. None. No two styles of play are either. But considering the metagame is loaded with aggro-control, fast combo, and Goblins which still win in a short amount of time, is smashing Landstill alone good enough to merit running a deck?
WHAT? No, just no.
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