Tough to say without seeing your deck and sideboard. However, general rules:Originally Posted by Cellar Door
1) Daze comes out on the draw; and is questionable on the play. Maverick usually has enough mana, we have removal for their creatures, and Daze is dead in the late game.
2) Force of Will usually comes out on the play and you can leave a couple in on the draw. The only major targets you need to Force are Choke (which a lot of lists aren't even running anymore), StP on a creature you need to keep around, or KotR/GSZ if you don't have a method to kill the Knight (however, with active Deathrite, you may be able to keep KotR pretty small). Also, Scavenging Ooze may be worth a counterspell depending upon the board state and game state.
3) Targeted discard can come out. People may argue this point, but usually, I remove targeted discard vs. 'fair' decks. Hymn also loses value on the draw.
4) All of your removal comes in. The lists that did well at last week's SCG both ran 2 Darkblast, 2 Diabolic Edict, and an extra Snuff Out. Maelstrom Pulse comes in. Umezawa's Jitte, if you are running it. You can also bring in artifact hate for their Jittes.
5) Your flyers are huge. Maverick doesn't have many fliers, besides maybe Scryb Ranger and Linvala out of the board. For this reason, V. Clique is good. Your goal is to land a flyer and ride it to victory.
6) Jace is probably doable on the play, but less-so on the draw.
So, basic breakdown:
Bring in all of your removal (including Jitte) and evasive creatures.
Remove Daze on the draw.
Remove FOW on the play.
Remove some discard.
Aggressively target their mana and mana-producing creatures. You'll also want to remove Mother of Runes, as she will mess up your targeted removal. Virtue's Rain, Dread of Night, or Massacre are all good methods of taking out Mom and Thalia. Darkblast is really good vs. Maverick.
Try to get some early beats in on the ground and then ride Deathrite activations or a flyer to victory.
Your goal is to win by turn 7-8. You want to disrupt them enough to win the game, not to nullify every threat they produce. Maverick is a very mana-hungry deck, so it is best to disrupt their early mana creatures to prevent them from landing their bigger threats. The longer the game goes, the more it swings in Maverick's favor. You are the beatdown.
I understand your argument for removing FoW. Im having troubles imagining the deck without them though, but i guess the card disadvantage can often be an issue. FoWs often works fine for me but for some reason it is almost always counter-countered and i often draw them late game with no cards in hand = sucks!
I really like the last list. Removing FoW gives a nice 4 empty spots that often was never considered in the old TA. I typically played 1 MB Darkblast. It really helps fueling both TS, Tarmo and Shaman which is nice - and having a good, fast MB turn-1 answer to mothers/elves is nice. The increased occurance of Mirran Crusader is solved by having the Rushing River which I think is really neat. It is a very nice card to draw late game where much mana isnt needed anyway.
So concludingly it could look like:
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Hymn
3 Spell Snare
2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Rushing River
4 Decay
1 Darkblast
1 Sylvan Library
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
20 Lands
Btw why arent we running Deed in SB? Because of Shamans? I like the sweeping package of 1 Deed, 1 Dread, 1 Ruin, 1 golgari charm
An interesting build was used to win Magiccardmarket.eu's winter tournament in Berlin yesterday. Despite the bad weather 72 players gathered, and a rather unique build came out on top of a very diverse top 8 including players like SCG's Carsten Kötter.
The deck seems to be a hybrid of Team America and UW Tempo. Being 4 colored it obv. eschews Wastelands, but contains nearly all the powerful tempo spells these colors provide. While the creaturebase contains both our beloved Shaman and some Tarmogoyfs, there's also that nasty Geist of Saint Traft. Athough not evasive himself, he offers quite a beating when coming down turn 2 and presents a very strong offense when combined with all the disruption the deck contains. The manabase is a bit greedy I guess, but obv. it worked out yesterday.
Deathrite by Jasper Grimmer
Lands (19)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
Creatures (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Geist of Saint Traft
Spells (26)
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
2 Vapor Snag
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder
Sideboard (15)
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Envelop
2 Thoughtseize
3 Lingering Souls
Source including T4 lists: short coverage
Conan, what is best in life? - To crush your enemies, see them driven before you... and to hear the lamentation of their women!
4 Colour? Dear god.
-Matt
Thank you for your advice. This is a huge help!
Agreed. mongoose does not work with shaman(i've been playing the deck for a couple months now) people wanna whine about delver being just a 1/1 for a couple turns ? try playing shaman with mongoose.It works sometime..other times you miss damage or can't use shaman for what you want to ...i actually think with all the shamans and r.i.p. around that goyf is going to get worse aswell..
Please keep me posted of your testing with the deck. I could see the Spell Snare / IoK / Thoughseize spots varying by meta. In a meta with a lot of Esper or Maverick, Spell Snare is very good. However, in a meta with a lot of Omni-Tell or Storm, Thoughtseize, IoK, and even Spell Pierce are probably worth a go.
This deck doesn't run Deed due to how much mana is needed. You need 3 mana to play Deed, and then you need 3 or 4 to blow it up. Tombstalker is the only thing that survives. The decks that love Deed play manlands and planeswalkers and run a high land count with basics. Our deck really wants to cap at 2 lands, maybe 3.
In my opinion, Deed is too slow and goes against this deck's tempo strategy of trying to play 2-3 lands and create a tempo victory.
Deed and Dread are a no-go.
Deed is very good vs. Affinity, and can oftentimes be popped for 0 and 1 and have devastating effects. If Affinity makes a comeback, then I think we run Deed. In the current meta, we have better answers.
I recently played against two of these decks on MTGO. It was 4-color Deathrite, running everything but red and packing everything but the kitchen sink. I figured it was some group testing for a tournament, which appears to be true. I'm happy they did well. I was able to win both matches on the back of a poor draw by my opponent, land destruction, removal, and discard. Both versiosn I played against were running SFM, Jace, and Liliana (I never saw GoST).
4-color is cool and I'm going to give it further review. However, it is very dependent upon Deathrite and having lands in the graveyard for colored-mana generation. If you can disrupt their Deathrites, then they are running a 4-color deck with a fragile manabase.
Thanks for sharing this list!
I've been fooling around with the 4-color list. It should probably have it's own thread, but until it does, let's discuss it here.
What do you think the Cavern of Souls in the board is for? None of the creatures in the main deck share a creature type and the cards in the whole deck that do are Delver and the singleton Clique out of the board (Wizard). I can only imagine that the Cavern is another way to land Deathrite on turn 1. What do you think?
Given the list above, how would you side vs. RUG? Would you cut some number of Geists?
On the play:
-4 FOW, -2 Thoughtseize, -1 Geist +3 Lingering Souls, +1 STP, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Jitte?
On the draw:
-1 FOW, -3 Daze, -2 Thoughtseize, -2 Geist, +3 Lingering Souls, +1 EE, +2 STP, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Jitte?
The deck has been intriguing me. I don't really get the Cavern in the board and it has a really removal-heavy sideboard - 1 EE, 1 Jitte, 3 STP, 3 Lingering Souls (pseudo removal / stall vs. Swarm decks - also good vs. control decks).
Sure thing, I will do so.
Why is Dread of Night a no-go? Thats a mistake right? I get your thoughts on the deed though. With only TS and Tarmo I guess it was better.
Regarding the 4 color I once played and tested my own version of team portugal with white included - with new cards added it would look like this:
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Brainstorm
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
4 Ponder
1 Rushing River
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sylvan Library
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
- Not counter heavy, but with a lot of nice toolboxes. I recall using snapcaster, unearth which was quite fun. Also I am getting into the Runechanter's Pike. Equip that to delver and you have a beast! What are you people's thoughts on # of equipment vs. # of SFM? I usually go with 1 less equipment than I have SFMs.
For even more toolbox you could include Ooze but I dont like them together with SHaman for obvious reasons..
The loam is there to help the mana base. I dont think it is that much of a problem, especially with 8 cantrips and Shamans, but it is always nice to have that card. Also feeds the Goyf/Shaman if need be.
EDIT: Rushing Rivers + loam is just sex!
A
Re:[4-colour-list]
Congratulations to the finish, really like the list. I'm just very curious about the Vapor Snags, I think I would play "real"removal (i.e.: Swords) in that slot what would free up some Sb-slots.
Is the possibility to random bounce + race ( with Geist mostly) really more relevant, than a little slower but way more resilent deck? If drawn in the early game without real boardpresence the card becomes weaker and CDA aswell. Someone enlighten me please?
Here is where my list is currently sitting:
4 Delver
4 Goyf
3 Shaman
3 TS
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 BS
4 Hymn
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
1 Sylvan Library
4 Sea
2 Bayou
1 Trop
1 Delta
4 Verdant
4 Misty
4 Wasteland
Side
2 Krosan Grip
2 Spell Pierce
2 Darkblast
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Jitte
1 Dread of Night
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Pithing Needle
1 V.Clique
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Maelstrom Pulse
I'm on the fence about Hymn in this list. I am considering replacing it with Thoughtseize/IoK/Duress in some numbers. What are some thoughts regarding this? Sometimes Hymn can be a little awkward/difficult to cast and being able to actually look at the opponent's hand really helps plan out plays better.
Is Abrupt Decay still necessary as a 4of? Could we stand to drop 1-2 copies in favor of more counter magic? Spell Pierce? Spell Snare?
Also, if we are subbing out Hymns for 1cc discard, could we lower our land count to 19, or even 18, and get away with it? Possibly drop down to 3 Wasteland? Or is Wasteland a necessary 4of in our deck? I have found myself consistently hitting land drops, to the point where sometimes it borders on flood. Although, against Wasteland-heavy decks, I can sometimes still get wasted out, but I don't think running 19 lands as opposed to 20 would exacerbate that.
Also wouldn't mind some sideboard suggestions. In my local meta we have some white-based lists (stoneblade/maverick), combo, and graveyard decks, which is why my board is tuned the way it is. I would love to hear if there are some more comprehensive choices I could be making there though. Do I have too many redundant effect?
The rationale for many of the deck's choices and numbers is a matter of consistency. The deck runs 4 of every card that it doesn't mind seeing in multiples early on, and then adds 4 Ponders to the mix for further consistency. Dismember/Snuff Out function as Decay #5. Tombstalker and Shaman are there as 3-ofs because although you like to see them, multiples aren't as profitable (I would argue for the inclusion of Deathrite #4, however.) The miser's Sylvan Library is just an incredibly powerful tool that wins games, but is completely useless in multiples.
I think cutting a land is doable, however running 20 lands is due to the deck running most effectively on 2 lands (as opposed to RUG's lower mana requirement of just 1 land) -- 20 seems to be the magic number where you're most likely to open with around 2 colored sources.
As for discard -- I think it's a completely reasonable choice to run Thoughtseize instead of Hymn. I think it comes down to personal preference, but there's no denying that Hymn does a great job of beating 'random jank', which you're bound to see in a larger tournament.
I meant Dread of Night and Deed together are a no-go. A 'no-go' is a mistake, similar to a non-bo. I like both Dread of Night and Deed, but I wouldn't want to play them together. Kind of like how Deed and Engineered Plague don't run well together. You can run both, but it's horrible when you need to pop your Deed and you end up destroying your own enchantments in the process.
I played 3 matches with this list last night and here are my thoughts on Vapor Snag:
First, it provides an extra blue card for FOW.
Second, it's better than STP vs. Tombstalker, Delver, and most Show and Telled plus Reanimated critters.
Third, the life loss can be relevant. Because this is a tempo deck, it can be more profitable to return a threat for turn, tie up your opponent's mana, and not allow them to gain life so that you can swing in for lethal.
Fourth, it can be casted off any of the deck's lands. The mana-base has 9 lands. All of them produce U. Only 3 of them produce W. In the main deck configuration, you only have 5 W cards, so it's the last color you fetch for. I think this is the major reason for running Vapor Snag over STP- you're able to cast it more often.
Also, Vapor Snag combined with targeted discard can create pseudo creature destruction, albeit at the cost of 2 cards.
I still don't understand the Cavern of Souls in the board. Could someone please enlighten me there? Plus, how you would side vs. RUG (see my comment above)?
It looks wacky enough that I want to play it. I don't understand most of the numbers, but I'm sure that will come with playing the deck, assuming it is a tuned list (which it looks like it is).
Delver enthusiast and avid practitioner of blind flipsmanship.
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Yes Mark, it certainly is a crazy list. I think we should start up its own thread. Established decks because the deck already won a 70+ person tournament?
There are many deck choices I do not understand, like the 4 maindeck Geists and the sideboard Cavern of Souls.
In any case, the deck has done well and it is a blast to play.
The mana configuration can be a little tough, because the deck is only running 3 types of duals. While U is imperative, I wonder if the deck doesn't benefit from some cross-pollination - Bayou would be nice to enable Abrupt Decay and Savannah would be nice to lock in Swords and Lingering Souls out of the board. However, U is imperative for Daze, Brainstorm, and Ponder. I also missed Wasteland, but, alas, that is the price we pay for running a 4-c deck.
I am interested in someone's analysis regarding the sideboard and how you would sideboard vs. common match-ups.
I played against ANT (2-1), Maverick (1-2), and Turbo Eldrazi (0-2) last night. I've come to the conclusion that Geist is very good on the play, but lacks on the draw.
I assume Geist and the Cavern is for the Miracles match-up, but Terminus seems like the real problem against this match-up.
Ugh, back and forth on Delver in this deck. If you drop Delver, tempo cards like Daze and 4-of Wastelands become slightly less powerful. I think if you drop Delver, you should probably just go all-in on the midrange plan and run maindeck planeswalkers and edit the spell choices.
Even though Delver is a bit less consistent here than in RUG, I like the fact that it's still a threat that requires an answer. Unless you're up against something like Miracles or another deck playing board-wipes, the increased threat density is useful. Even if they Bolt/Swords it, that's one less removal spell your other threats need to worry about.
I think I'm totally back on-board with Dan's ideas about the card, which is basically that if you're going to run the tempo shell, 4 Delvers are an auto-include.
If you're not, then it's probably better to just configure the deck for the midrange/control shell.
That said, I still want the 4th Deathrite. It fixes so many problems that this deck used to have: vulnerability to graveyard recursion/strategies; vulnerability to Wasteland and awkward mana-requirements; occasional lack of reach on a stalled board; (along with Delver) lack of aggressive turn-1 plays; lack of life gain against more aggressive strategies. He's kinda like a one-mana Planeswalker, very similar to Mother of Runes in this regard. I know it's a bit of a sacred cow, but perhaps the safest card to cut is the 3rd Tombstalker instead of the 4th Delver. Just an idea. I suppose a Wasteland could maybe be cut.
Yes, the big reason I went back to running 4 is because it is our only threat that is not contingent upon the graveyard.
It also helps out with the blue spell count. Once you cut Delver, the blue spell count falls too low for FOW imo, so it changes the make-up of the deck dramatically and there aren't very many suitable Delver replacements - V. Clique, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare don't fill Delver's role.
A note: Jace is in the sideboard exactly for the Maverick matchup. You want to be grindy after board and Jace supports that role. You are not playing tempo after board against maverick, you are playing control. That is also one of the reasons why i strongly dislike delver, it does very little in postboard games in alot of matchups.
I have actually cut the 3rd stalker for the 4th deathrite. As much as I hate the idea, I think it makes more sense and the deck is still plenty aggressive. I want the 1st library over the 3rd stalker since control seems to be more popular than rug right now, and shaman is the nuts against rug anyway.
they haunt minds...
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