[Deck] Fetchland Tendrils

[metalhead]

What exactly does Gitaxian Probe contribute to the deck and the piles if you aren't using IU to draw into Gitaxian Probe plus 2 Lion's Eye Diamonds for the 6 mana pile into your Burning Wish -> Tendrils of Agony? Are you just using Gitaxian Probe to increase the number of manaless cantrips into Doomsday (i.e. increase your speed) and are you certain that's better than just playing Pre-Ordain?

I don't think you need the Tendrils of Agony MD, if you're worried about Extirpate you can just SB in an extra Tendrils of Agony from the SB (I've liked having access to an extra Tendrils of Agony and Ill Gotten Gains in the SB to board in vs. aggro personally)

Though probe is better in IU builds. Its still good at giving you valuable information. Giving a free storm. And the cantrip comes in verry handy some times. I wouldn't say its needed in meditate builds but its still quite good.

As far as top goes. Not only does it provide long term inevitability. Sometimes its simply a cantrip that can be cast off of black mana and that's where most of my turn 1 and 2 wins come from. So top actually offers speed and reziliance in one package.

[flrn]

Have 4 top, 4 brainstorm, 4 ponder, 4 probe is kind of nuts.. like.. kind of completely nuts. I'm still never switching over the IU simply because, well.. I like being able to play around snare but we don't need that debate again. I got too fed up with IT so I threw em out and put the BWs back in the deck.

Just splash white for Chants and play Ideas Unbound instead of Meditate. It'll be awesome. I promise.

[Chikenbok]

God damn it I'm not playing white. Not doing it. Won't do it.

Probe has just been an intense card to run despite not having access to cheap ass IU piles. The ability to take a peak, and cantrip has been priceless almost every time I've used it. Preordain for the strict purpose of drawing and looking at cards is, absolutely better - but the peak has been simply priceless other times. Also the ability to have a free cantrip into a pile (even though I'm not running IU) has sped up the deck and added to the overall consistancy. Weird meditate in hand plus opponent having snare in hand piles that end in tendrils.. I can probe into it.

I might go ahead and cut the MD Tendrils but I don't want to have to rely solely on BW to win me the game if I don't have to - that is to say, I like to be able to play completely around snare rather than having to duress and play through it. And since I don't/won't ever run a chant, I can't just chant and walk around snare ;)

[Nemavera]

I’m really sorry that I don’t have time to answer all questions, I’m pretty busy at the moment.

Some answers:

1. You want to play DDFT?
Step 1: Register on stormboards (www.teamstormboards.proboards.com)
Step 2: Read the whole (!!) thread here on theSource and on stormboards. If you speak german, there’s also a thread on www.mtg-forum.de
Step 3: Take a list and start goldfishing.
Step 4: Start playing the list vs. anything you like
Step 5: If you fail, go back to step 3.

2. Why Chants > Duress?
Chants are so much better right now, with everybody playing Snapcaster and Spell Snare. You can fight through Flusterstorm, Daze, Spellpierce, Snare, Force. There are 3 dangerous counterspells: Force of Will, Spellstutter Sprite, Counterspell. That’s it. Reason: They counter your Chant.

3. Vendilion Clique sucks
Learn to use your Top, your Ponders and your Brainstorms.

4. There a lots of other questions, most of them have been answered quite often.

p.s. read emidln’s posts: He’s awesome ;)

[Chikenbok]

2. Why Chants > Duress?
Chants are so much better right now, with everybody playing Snapcaster and Spell Snare. You can fight through Flusterstorm, Daze, Spellpierce, Snare, Force. There are 3 dangerous counterspells: Force of Will, Spellstutter Sprite, Counterspell. That’s it. Reason: They counter your Chant.

Suddenly, thanks to Gerry Thompson, everyone thinks that Counterbalance is a deck again. While we all know, its never been a real god damned deck - it forced me to stick to black disruption over chants. I still think if the meta develops well, at least I am going to see more CB all over the god damn place.

[Togores]

After 2 weeks plaing the deck. I come up with a lot of conclusions. I started plaing the gp version. After that i changed this.

-1 ponder
-2 scalding
-1 tundra

+1 tendrils
+2 flooded
+1 scrubland

I thought the tendrils main deck make me not losinf to extitpate my burning but it comes out i have never never use it. So in side deck i play laboratory maniac and it has winn me so many games. I have been thinking changing the MD tendrills for maniac, because he is awesome in this situations:

Against discard where u have not a big hand to storm them
Against 1st game gadog tegg where al my cards with maniac are less than 4cc
Against battelskull if you get hited one or 2 times you dont lose because making more than 11 storm is dificult and 14 even more but not imposible.
And it gives you piles where you combo with only 4 Doomsday cards so you have a last card out if something happens.

What do you all thing of maniac??? Good or bad???
The tundra was taken out because i got problems to cast doomsday without extra mana and being wb made it easier. I think was a correct change. Never needed the 2nd tundra.

Then in side i play all combos in the world may be too much but i have a plan against any deck. The only problem i had was aetersworm canonist. I won a game vs 2 but it makes a lot more dificult to winn with it on board.

So thats my side (all singeltons)

Time spiral (dont know if it should be diminishing returns, will test it but thing spiral is better)
Tendrills
Empy the warrens
Duress
Pulverize
Oust
Doomsday
Grapeshot
Helm of awakening
Shelldock island
Emrakul
Piroclasm
Chain of vapor (love this card bouncing in resp to your top and the canonist and draw 1, i may be add the 2nd one)
Echoing truth
Whipe away


May be i will post the most dificult game i played in my life winning true a double cannonist and ending at 1 life. With also a gaddog teg on board. I have the game writen down at other place and i will upload later or tomorrow.

[Chikenbok]

Why do you need a big hand to win the game? You know that you play Doomsday.

How do you lose to a g1 teeg, you play Burning wish. Wish --> Way to kill teeg --> win.

Batterskull coming in twice should put them at around 25 life after the probable forces and fetches, it shouldn't be a problem to hit 14-15 storm.

I don't get the part about 4 Doomsday cards. If you have the option to get 5, you must - no may clause there.

Lab maniac has already been discussed. Love the oust tech.

[jjjoness']

If you have difficulties generating enough storm, I strongly recommend you take a look at the double Doomsday piles.
Discard can be beaten by using cantrips right (which is the most important and difficult thing to learn) and playing artifact mana preemptively.

[Dark Ritual]

Yeah with doomsday you can often have 3 cards in hand and win the game those 3 being dark rit, LED, doomsday, with top on the field. That generates lethal storm as well with the burning wish version.

Doomsday requires you to get 5 cards if you have 5 cards. If doomsday could get you 1-5 cards it would be even more broken. Then again I often like getting 5 cards to generate maximum storm.

Time spiral >>>>>>>> diminishing returns. Time spiral often costs less mana in this deck since you untap and has the advantage of being useful with doomsday piles since it doesn't exile your entire deck like returns does with the exile the top 10 cards clause.

Oust seems techy but why play it over deathmark again? And for that matter you also have pyroclasm and grapeshot in your SB to deal with hatebears. Are you super afraid of hatebears or something? You should probably cut oust for a slaughter pact or something useful since you already have grapeshot and pyroclasm to deal with hatebears.

[Smmenen]

What do you all thing of maniac??? Good or bad???

The Dday lists here are pretty weaksauce. I think some players are opposed to Maniac because it makes Dday actually so much easier. Look at what it did for Vintage Dday.

[emidln]

Smmenen, show us the true Doomsday lists please. We need your guidance. No Doomsday lists were even competitive before you optimized a Lab Manaic list for the world to see. /sarcasm

Lab Manaic has the following issues that it doesn't have in Vintage:

(a) it costs more to win with than Tendrils
(b) casting Lab Maniac is significantly harder than in Vintage, where every pile includes Black Lotus
(c) passing the turn leads to losing to aggro decks
(d) people actually play removal spells in Vintage
(e) casting Doomsday is harder due to not having Gush for our Underground Seas (also see (b) once you've cast gush)

To be perfectly honest, (b), (c), and (d) aren't that big of an issue. Costing more to win than Tendrils is a big issue. Being vulnerable to more hate is a big issue if you need to play Rituals to cast Doomsday (thus taking away space from protection to resolve Doomsday and keep Maniac around).

[Chikenbok]

Clearly we just have to cut all of the cantrips, run only 1 brainstorm, a bunch more accel, and 4 FOW.

Then we can protect a maniac in a format where every deck except for ours comes packed with MD removal.

I'm kind of excited to see a REAL Doomsday deck too.

[QQQ]

Do you mean that people don't play removal in Vintage? I think that all of the burn, and spot removal in Legacy makes a Maniac less safe than in vintage. Plus missing Recall, Lotus, Will, Gush, Moxen, etc.

[Togores]

Why do you need a big hand to win the game? You know that you play Doomsday.

How do you lose to a g1 teeg, you play Burning wish. Wish --> Way to kill teeg --> win.

Batterskull coming in twice should put them at around 25 life after the probable forces and fetches, it shouldn't be a problem to hit 14-15 storm.

I don't get the part about 4 Doomsday cards. If you have the option to get 5, you must - no may clause there.

Lab maniac has already been discussed. Love the oust tech.

I remeber you that my oponent plays too. he has cards and put me into presure if he has tegg and i make doomsday i shul already get hitted bu life if my plie needs a extra burning to get rid of tegg i need a lot of mana and resurcen or too pass turn to winn, and its not always posible. they play wasteland and other disruption cards. i have not infinite time or perfect cards always.

and agaisnt battle skull deck they play counters and wastelands usualy, this means i dont have a lot of cards if i have a clock on table im not able every time to make 15 spells, usualy the ending doomsday pile gives me like 6-7 spells so i have to make and have mana to play 5 before i doomsday and if i dont make a ritual and so its dificult in some situations of preasure of if he already hitted me with sword of feast and femine.

[Togores]

Yeah with doomsday you can often have 3 cards in hand and win the game those 3 being dark rit, LED, doomsday, with top on the field. That generates lethal storm as well with the burning wish version.

Doomsday requires you to get 5 cards if you have 5 cards. If doomsday could get you 1-5 cards it would be even more broken. Then again I often like getting 5 cards to generate maximum storm.

Time spiral >>>>>>>> diminishing returns. Time spiral often costs less mana in this deck since you untap and has the advantage of being useful with doomsday piles since it doesn't exile your entire deck like returns does with the exile the top 10 cards clause.

Oust seems techy but why play it over deathmark again? And for that matter you also have pyroclasm and grapeshot in your SB to deal with hatebears. Are you super afraid of hatebears or something? You should probably cut oust for a slaughter pact or something useful since you already have grapeshot and pyroclasm to deal with hatebears.

I realy thing spiral is much better than diminishing but i want to test it one day, at the end i think i will still play spiral but no one gets hurts by testing.

and i play oust over deathmark to kill iona naming black wich will kill me easy i some games, i have won afew games because of this or because i was able to kill a jin gitaxian or something like that.

[Togores]

Smmenen, show us the true Doomsday lists please. We need your guidance. No Doomsday lists were even competitive before you optimized a Lab Manaic list for the world to see. /sarcasm

Lab Manaic has the following issues that it doesn't have in Vintage:

(a) it costs more to win with than Tendrils
(b) casting Lab Maniac is significantly harder than in Vintage, where every pile includes Black Lotus
(c) passing the turn leads to losing to aggro decks
(d) people actually play removal spells in Vintage
(e) casting Doomsday is harder due to not having Gush for our Underground Seas (also see (b) once you've cast gush)

To be perfectly honest, (b), (c), and (d) aren't that big of an issue. Costing more to win than Tendrils is a big issue. Being vulnerable to more hate is a big issue if you need to play Rituals to cast Doomsday (thus taking away space from protection to resolve Doomsday and keep Maniac around).

its realy more easy to winn with maniac than with tendrils, in the situation of u have bbb doomsday probe and led with top in table u can easy make this pile if you are on 6 lp and your oponent has tegg and lethal damage or a lot of life points, or a card like solitary confinement or runed hallo or sth like that:

ideas, led any card gitaxian maniac.

at any card u can put a chant if you still have white mana to save you manic for stp if they are untaped or sth like that.

you make the pile of before with the doomsday you are at 3 ife, then you play led, play gitaxian to get to 1 life. with gitaxian on the pile you respond with craking led for uuu, draw ideas. play ideas. drawing led chant and another probe. if you have white mana you play chant, then led then with the U you have you play gitaxian craking led for uuu then you cast the just drawn maniac and change the top to winn even if your opoent has infinite life points of something that makes u dont be able kill him with tendrills.

and to answer your a-e arguments.

a- it cost the same and is more resistant to anti combo hate
b- here with ur cantrips and leds you can cast maniac easy being half inteligent
c- you dont need to pass turn if you dont want too, making the right piles makes you winn automaticaly
d- and yes in vintage they play removal speels, from lightning, to dimsemember, to echoing truth, to and easy red elemental blast who is played in mostly blue decks with red splash.
e- we play other deck, we have more free draw spells like gitaxian and top and have more mana producers like ritual and led.

^^

[Chikenbok]

I no longer have any idea what's going on this thread.

[emidln]

its realy more easy to winn with maniac than with tendrils, in the situation of u have bbb doomsday probe and led with top in table u can easy make this pile if you are on 6 lp and your oponent has tegg and lethal damage or a lot of life points, or a card like incomunication or runed hallo or sth like that

If you have 3 mana and 2 draws and can't win through bullshit permanents, you are mentally deficient and probably want to examine a game with less thought. I recommend Lawn Darts.

The most efficient Tendrils pile is Probe in hand and UU floating. There is no other single cantrip pile that is more efficient with fewer requirements. Brainstorm can work at U, but requires spare cards in hand. That you think Lab Maniac is more efficient for a kill than Tendrils is pretty obvious proof that you have no idea how DDFT actually works.

[Togores]

If you have 3 mana and 2 draws and can't win through bullshit permanents, you are mentally deficient and probably want to examine a game with less thought.

Then say me a pile were i can win if there is a runed halo. Incomunication or tegg on board 1st game and i cant pass turn because of if i doo it i lose.
I know u r a master but i cant get a pile that i winn with this cards and mana. And without mean deck bouncer. That means for me i have to wish for an answer.

[bennotsi]

Then say me a pile were i can win if there is a runed halo. Incomunication or tegg on board 1st game and i cant pass turn because of if i doo it i lose.
I know u r a master but i cant get a pile that i winn with this cards and mana. And without mean deck bouncer. That means for me i have to wish for an answer.

What you're asking is ridiculous: Have you ever actually seen a match where you're opponent managed to get Runed Halo and Gaddock Teeg on the table game one, against a competent player playing this deck?

It shouldn't be necessary to tell you this: but these decks are optimized for the common case, not for every exotic situation your mind can come up with.

And what on earth do you mean by "Incomunication", thats not even a card....