View Poll Results: Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post Snapcaster Mage)

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    398 78.50%
  • Yes

    109 21.50%
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Thread: Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post Snapcaster Mage)

  1. #281
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    Re: Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post Snapcaster Mage)

    Quote Originally Posted by Intet's Attendant View Post
    Listen to this guy. We need cards in other colors that reward skillful play via manipulation (what blue is known for) or else people will continue to play the blue cards that do just that (FoW, Brainstorm, Ponder, ect)
    First of all, no, this doesn't parse. Lots of fields of play require skillful play. Combat in limited environments is usually a very skill intensive feat, especially in a complex board state full of different utility creatures and with unknown cards in an opponent's hand.

    But people don't play most of those cards that make combat tricky in Legacy, because in this format they're not as powerful. Which is what people care about; winning, not showing off how good they are. If they can reduce variance while winning, great, but it's not like pro players didn't play Jund when it was the best deck in Standard, they just bitched about having to do so.

    People play blue because it's the most powerful color, not because it lets them show off their skill.

    Now some more card manipulation and cheap flexible answers in other colors would certainly be welcome, especially in red and black. But they're really not going to print anything on the power level of Brainstorm. Maverick can, without going outside green/white, play: Stoneforge Mystic, Green Sun's Zenith, Knight of the Reliquary, Sylvan Library and/or Sensei's Divining Top and have plenty of manipulation, filtering, and ways to show playskill through good decision making that also reduces variance. Or Hell, there's even builds throwing in Fauna Shaman or Natural Order and I suppose if you wanted you could try Ranger of Eos somehow. But for all that, its weakness is that those effects are slow and inefficient compared to Brainstorm, and despite having to cut numbers on some or all of those cards to make the blue shell work, it's still significantly outperformed by Bant decks.
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  2. #282
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    Re: Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post Snapcaster Mage)

    Been thinking about this a while. First of im not denying that the card is a strong one. But really. If Brainstrorm is a such overpowered Card why doesnt every none-blue deck splash for Brainstorm? Considering it only needs 1 blue mana to cast and use the fetchlands that are in the decks anyway.

    Like Junk decks, maverick and others.

  3. #283

    Re: Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post Snapcaster Mage)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rizso View Post
    Been thinking about this a while. First of im not denying that the card is a strong one. But really. If Brainstrorm is a such overpowered Card why doesnt every none-blue deck splash for Brainstorm? Considering it only needs 1 blue mana to cast and use the fetchlands that are in the decks anyway.

    Like Junk decks, maverick and others.
    Splashing just for brainstorm often means you'll have to fetch the blue dual to pay for brainstorm, which is kinda the wrong way round.
    So it's not really that hot if you go to 4 colors for it.
    For a 2 color build it is certainly worth considering, but usually it is better to include FoW as well then, which brings in another bunch of blue, which leads to decks that ain't maverick etc..

  4. #284
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    Re: Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post Snapcaster Mage)

    You're basically looking for Jonas Koestler's Day1 Undefeated Decklist from GP Amsterdam 2011. It's Maverick with a blue splash for Brainstorm (+Daze) but no Force of Will.
    The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
    1. Discuss the unbanning of Land Tax Earthcraft.
    2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
    3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
    4. Stifle Standstill.
    5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
    6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
    7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).

  5. #285
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    Re: Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post Snapcaster Mage)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    Maverick can, without going outside green/white, play: Stoneforge Mystic, Green Sun's Zenith, Knight of the Reliquary, Sylvan Library and/or Sensei's Divining Top and have plenty of manipulation, filtering, and ways to show playskill through good decision making that also reduces variance. Or Hell, there's even builds throwing in Fauna Shaman or Natural Order and I suppose if you wanted you could try Ranger of Eos somehow. But for all that, its weakness is that those effects are slow and inefficient compared to Brainstorm, and despite having to cut numbers on some or all of those cards to make the blue shell work, it's still significantly outperformed by Bant decks.
    This isn't true at all. Maverick is a very good deck and a real contender. This is precisely because it offers so much good decision making (not to mention the recent powerful cards given to these colors). I think you'd find that with just a little push Green and White become top colors and with the same kind of thoughtful design, Black and Red can easily be balanced in the same fashion.... and all without superficial bans. Banning Brainstorm just won't do what people want it to do.

  6. #286
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    Re: Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post Snapcaster Mage)

    It occurred to me yesterday that part of what makes Brainstorm so good is that it's the only non-conditional blue card that's really good. So it will always be a target for Snapcaster. Removal doesn't do anything if your opponent doesn't have creatures, counters don't do anything if your opponent isn't casting spells, but it's always nice to cast a Brainstorm.

  7. #287
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    Re: Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post Snapcaster Mage)

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    You're basically looking for Jonas Koestler's Day1 Undefeated Decklist from GP Amsterdam 2011. It's Maverick with a blue splash for Brainstorm (+Daze) but no Force of Will.
    Hey, that's two cards off my list from SCG Nashville!
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  8. #288

    Re: Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post Snapcaster Mage)

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    You're basically looking for Jonas Koestler's Day1 Undefeated Decklist from GP Amsterdam 2011. It's Maverick with a blue splash for Brainstorm (+Daze) but no Force of Will.
    I don't know...

    That's a lot more than a "blue splash for brainstorm"

    He ran
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Daze
    3 Jace
    2 Vendillion Clique

    13 Blue cards isn't a splash, that deck is Bant.

  9. #289
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    Re: Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post Snapcaster Mage)

    I voted No strongly on that too. Brainstorm is what makes the format, after it being restricted in vintage I switched over to Legacy bc of BS. The card has been around for years, I don't think snapcaster mage is a problem. The reason you don't see zoo and goblins around is bc of the unbanning of Entomb. That card single handedly killed arggro deck strategys. With a vast amount of creatures you can target on turn one then turn two reanimate is a huge problem aggro decks face because of the lack of counters. If they ban brainstorm I see a format of Reanimater, Combo and aggro decks being tier 2. A format without Brainstorm is the day I quit legacy and magic all together.

  10. #290

    Re: Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post Snapcaster Mage)

    Quote Originally Posted by ShiftyKapree View Post
    If they ban brainstorm I see a format of Reanimater, Combo and aggro decks being tier 2.
    I'm 100% Reanimater will be my go-to deck if ever BS gets the axe. It will be tier 2 until people realize it still having raw speed/power.
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  11. #291
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    Re: Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post Snapcaster Mage)

    Good to see that the vote is like 80:20 for Brainstorm.

    Funny to see that the number of community members who actually care about such a controversial topic is so little...I expected more votes to be honest.
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  12. #292

    Re: Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post Snapcaster Mage)

    Should Brainstorm get the axe, you'll ironically see just as many if not more blue decks. However, attendance will likely see a drop in Legacy. If we use this poll as a small sample size (it's not quite high enough, need roughly 1000+ people) to guess at what may happen with banning brainstorm:

    A- Nothing will change.

    B- Blue deck numbers will drop because people playing will drop.

    The fact that we are asking about a ban on Brainstorm post Snappy is pretty clear that Brainstorm isn't what is making blue overpowered. Snappy and Delver are making blue overpowered. Having better non-blue cards printed is the best solution at this point if we don't want to ban anything.

  13. #293
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    Re: Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post Snapcaster Mage)

    Quote Originally Posted by DragoFireheart View Post
    The fact that we are asking about a ban on Brainstorm post Snappy is pretty clear that Brainstorm isn't what is making blue overpowered. Snappy and Delver are making blue overpowered. Having better non-blue cards printed is the best solution at this point if we don't want to ban anything.
    I hate to pick on you for this, Drago, but it was the most recent example of this line of thinking.

    Every time I read a comment or a defense of brainstorm that basically says "Brainstorm isn't the problem, it's Delver and/or Snapcaster," the only thing I think of is back in the day when I heard things like "Necropotence sucks, it's just that people drop it turn one. We just need to get rid of the acceleration. Ban Dark Ritual."

    From where I'm sitting, that won't accomplish anything. Say they delver and snapcaster don't exist, they get banned or never saw print, a year from now we have the same conversation when wizards prints some other card that is ridiculous with brainstorm. The same logic that applied to the banning of survival applies here. If it's broken, there are always going to be cards that will split the card in half.

    So, if blue is OP and brainstorm is at the center of the storm... why ban a secondary card instead of banning the card that is broken?

    This is of course assuming that blue IS broken and OP. That is a point of contention that seems to still be undecided by and large by a lot of people though.
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  14. #294

    Re: Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post Snapcaster Mage)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sims View Post
    I hate to pick on you for this, Drago, but it was the most recent example of this line of thinking.

    Every time I read a comment or a defense of brainstorm that basically says "Brainstorm isn't the problem, it's Delver and/or Snapcaster," the only thing I think of is back in the day when I heard things like "Necropotence sucks, it's just that people drop it turn one. We just need to get rid of the acceleration. Ban Dark Ritual."

    From where I'm sitting, that won't accomplish anything. Say they delver and snapcaster don't exist, they get banned or never saw print, a year from now we have the same conversation when wizards prints some other card that is ridiculous with brainstorm. The same logic that applied to the banning of survival applies here. If it's broken, there are always going to be cards that will split the card in half.

    So, if blue is OP and brainstorm is at the center of the storm... why ban a secondary card instead of banning the card that is broken?

    This is of course assuming that blue IS broken and OP. That is a point of contention that seems to still be undecided by and large by a lot of people though.
    Interestingly enough, I would argue that BS is the Dark Ritual in this case.

  15. #295
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    Re: Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post Snapcaster Mage)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sims View Post
    This is of course assuming that blue IS broken and OP. That is a point of contention that seems to still be undecided by and large by a lot of people though.
    I wish this wasn't the case, I've yet to see a solid argument for keeping Brainstorm that isn't along the lines of "Brainstorm is ok because -I- like it and I would quit - it's the only reason I play Legacy".

    Yeah well I like robbin banks, shootin cops, doing smack, and slappin hoes - but that doesn't make it ok.

    Thank you for using SoTF as an example, I tried to point that out earlier in this thread but it was gobbled up by a bunch of noise.
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  16. #296

    Re: Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post Snapcaster Mage)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ertai's Familiar View Post
    I wish this wasn't the case, I've yet to see a solid argument for keeping Brainstorm that isn't along the lines of "Brainstorm is ok because -I- like it and I would quit - it's the only reason I play Legacy".
    Brainstorm is fine because it encourages interactive games rather than non-interactive games. It's power level isn't enough to match the level of what SotF did.

  17. #297
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    Re: Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post Snapcaster Mage)

    Quote Originally Posted by DragoFireheart View Post
    Brainstorm is fine because it encourages interactive games rather than non-interactive games. It's power level isn't enough to match the level of what SotF did.
    SoTF provided PLENTY of interaction. Also let's assume BS is not a ridiculously powerful card as you seem to believe. Power level is not the only criteria for a card being removed from the format.

    I'm sorry I just don't see how you can honestly believe BS is healthy for this format. Do people forget the days where the Deck to Beat forum was Brainstorm in three different colors of Threshold and somehow that = format diversity. Nothing has changed it's still BS at the core with different supporting cards. Legacy has been utterly dominated by Brainstorm for as long as I can remember and I've been trolling this place since it split off from TMD.
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  18. #298

    Re: Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post Snapcaster Mage)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ertai's Familiar View Post
    SoTF provided PLENTY of interaction. Also let's assume BS is not a ridiculously powerful card as you seem to believe. Power level is not the only criteria for a card being removed from the format.
    - You are correct on the bold parts. We want to encourage an interactive game of magic (since everyone playing the same deck or fast, non-interactive combo would quickly become boring). However powerful you feel BS is, it isn't powerful enough to match SotF which, if resolved, can quickly end the game. A resolved BS isn't going to end the game within the next 2-3 turns.


    I'm sorry I just don't see how you can honestly believe BS is healthy for this format. Do people forget the days where the Deck to Beat forum was Brainstorm in a 4 different colors of Threshold and somehow that = format diversity. Nothing has changed it's still BS at the core with different supporting cards. Legacy has been utterly dominated by Brainstorm for as long as I can remember and I've been trolling this place since it split off from TMD.
    Brainstorm is healthy because while it's powerful, it's not powerful to the point of being a game ending card on its own. It's merely a gear within the blue deck shell that is currently performing well. Brainstorm is also a card that is interactive to play with and against. One of the fun aspects of Magic is that players interact with each other in meaningful ways. You cast STP, I could BS in response to dig for a counterspell.

    Because of those two factors, I feel that BS is fine for Legacy.

  19. #299
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    Re: Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post Snapcaster Mage)

    Quote Originally Posted by DragoFireheart View Post
    However powerful you feel BS is, it isn't powerful enough to match SotF which, if resolved, can quickly end the game. A resolved BS isn't going to end the game within the next 2-3 turns.

    Brainstorm is healthy because while it's powerful, it's not powerful to the point of being a game ending card on its own.
    Apparently, you've never seen me cast Brainstorm while playing TES, turning a terrible hand into "I win immediately" for one blue mana. Or exchange two lands for three business spells mid-combo in High Tide, preventing a fizzle.
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  20. #300

    Re: Ban on Brainstorm: Yes or No (Post Snapcaster Mage)

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar View Post
    Apparently, you've never seen me cast Brainstorm while playing TES, turning a terrible hand into "I win immediately" for one blue mana. Or exchange two lands for three business spells mid-combo in High Tide, preventing a fizzle.
    You could use that same argument for any card. "omg i drew x card i win!"

    My point is that just because you drew Brainstorm doesn't mean you instantly won. SotF did this, Flash did this, Mystical Tutor arguably did this, Brainstorm does not do this. It's power level is not comparable to cards that have been banned because of how game breaking they are.

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