Follow that path and you'll end up on Griselbrand + Death's Shadow. That's certainly a fun subgame of magic when they're both in play, but the more realistic card is Thought Scour. There's going to be more 'hard' yard hate in postboard games though.Originally Posted by Amazingxkcd
im not a fan of thought scour for the simple fact that you cant get card selection with casting it. Sure, it fuels anglers and such but I highly value being able to have total control over the cards I draw, in particular cantrips.
You can't really afford to go down cards for the sake of selection; given that this deck runs Bstorm [Scour combos here], Ponder, and Delver scrying, you should be able to find a window to use it. You're also playing 4x Thoughtseize, and Scour is quite good against defensive Bstorm.
Yes that is true, forgot about combating defensive Bstorms. Disregard my previous comment then :D
What decklist would you guys run now? I haven’t done any play testing yet however.
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This is my first back-of-napkin idea. I can't justify green anymore in the deck now that DRS is gone even though I was a huge fan of library/berserk. Non-creature permanents like Chalice are gonna be a huge problem now which is annoying.
4 Death's Shadow
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tombstalker
4 Street Wraith
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Dismember
4 Stifle
4 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder
2 Reanimate
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Watery Grave
4 Wasteland
Careful study doesn't allow you to keep card parody. Without a card advantage engine, I think this is a pretty big deal.
@CovenantElite30 the list probably starts here regardless of which way you go:
Fetchx7-8
Wasteland x4
Duals/Shocks/Basic x6-7
Delver x4
Death's Shadow x4
Gurmag/Tasigur/Tombstalker x3'ish
Brainstorm x4
Thought Scour x4
FoW x4
Thoughtseize x4
Ponder x4
Daze x4
---
Ponder numbers can be changed, but the list is more or less solved as it pertains to those 53 slots. Street Wraith can do the mana and life ramping, but I still dislike turbo-linear play [that also impedes Delver flipping] in interactive formats. To each their own, but I'd choose Thought Scour over it every time to max out Delver scrying and threaten Thoughtseize as "lose your three best cards" if you defensively Brainstorm. Scour is a card that wasn't getting played in legacy because free info + engine aspect of Probe which translated to a lot of free wins; Street Wraith is just linear turbo, and probably not doing enough anymore since Shadow decks are going to need to rely more heavily on supporting all non-Shadow threats [of which there are now fewer]. You can take those 53 slots and add Street Wraith, but now you're trying to get value/rebuild potential and interaction out of only three slots which doesn't really work.
Going into green rounds out the deck in that with 7 slots:
Berserk x2
Sylvan Library x2
Abrupt Decay x2
Flex slot x1
Staying on UB is fine, but you probably just go linear with Street Wraith. You can devolve into shenanigans like playing two decks with Reanimate and some Collective Brutality, or try to reverse engineer what Sylvan Library was doing on the value side with Arguel's Blood Fast and Liliana, the Last Hope. Getting some green still just seems easier if you ever want to not auto-lose to basic Plains. Until something changes where this deck can move away from being, what is now, probably the best delve creature shell in the format, I'd be sticking with Thought Scour over Wraith. Basic Island is as important as Swamp with this approach however.
I'm only a fringe visitor from time to time in Legacy so have that in mind with anything i say here.
As far as Thought Scour vs Careful Study goes personally i'm on the side of Careful Study - GDS is my only Deck in Modern and i do know what Looting does for the deck. Being an early game ritual and a lategame Card quality engine the effect is far stronger than that of Thought Scour - even if it does not accelerate at card parity in the early game. But card parity is something a tempo deck shouldn't care about too much when you can end the game before being down on cards matters - and that is especially more true for Legacy than for Modern. If you do know you need to grind, just wait with the Study until you can discard excess lands - which often is enough virtual card advantage to seal the deal.
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I do think that the Green Splash, while DRS was certainly powerful, still has it's value. Tarmogoyf may be really strong again, and Traverse the Ulvenwald allows to have more velocity on both plans - creatures and mana denial as it can fetch Wasteland or a creature. Fetchland, Street Wraith, Mishra's Bauble and a Thoughtseize don't only enable Delirium in the very first Turn, they also help at creating huge Tarmogoyfs - especially post board when you can bring in Liliana, the Last Hope and Bitterblossom Postboard, enabling potential 7/8 Goyfs.
There are 2 things to consider though: Goyfs are hit by more removal - Abrupt Decay and Fatal Push, which Angler could dodge - but often you can Sneak in an Angler bevor they have a chance to deal with your Graveyard, which means you can keep a big threat instead of a crippled one. But your Goyfs could also outclass Anglers.
I will try something like this:
4 Death's Shadow
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Street Wraith
2 Traverse the Ulvenwald
3 Mishra's Bauble
4 Ponder
4 Thougtseize
4 Daze
1 Berserk
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Dismember
2 Stubborn Denial
1 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Reanimate
I do know that Mishra's Bauble is a bad replacement for Probe, but maybe the pay off of a 1 Mana Tutor combined with bigger Goyfs could be enough.
My local store finally ran legacy today, drawing a crowd of 20 players. I haven't played Death's Shadow in legacy before but play grixis in modern. I liked the Sultai version for legacy because the splash cards seem better than the red ones. I've been lurking on these forums for a long time but figured I'd go ahead and try to contribute something.
This was my list for the night
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Death's Shadow
4x Street Wraith
3x Gurmag Angler
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Thoughtseize
2x Snuff Out
2x Dismember
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Sylvan Library
1x Spell Pierce
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Flooded Strand
4x Wasteland
2x Watery Grave
2x Underground Sea
1x Breeding Pool
1x Tropical Island
Sideboard - This was all over the place, wasn't sure what the meta would be like
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Sylvan Library
1x Liliana, Last Hope
1x True-Name Nemesis
1x Pithing Needle
1x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Fatal Push
1x Diabolic Edict
1x Flusterstorm
1x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Dread of Night
I guess the interesting thing is not playing berserk, which I didn't necessarily miss, but I do want to try one out in the future.
Went 3-1 in rounds, and a 4-0 felt like it would've been possible with lessons learned from the U/W matchup.
Round 1 vs some RUG control deck (2-0)
Games weren't very interesting, mana screwed him with wasteland both games.
Round 2 vs burn (2-1)
Game 1 went pretty poorly for me, dismembers and snuff outs don't line up well against burn, and I was unable to find a death's shadow to put a fast clock on them.
-2 dismember, -2 snuff out, -1 sylvan library. +1 Blue Blast, +1 flusterstorm, +1 Fatal Push, +2 decay
Game 2 an early gurmag angler followed by a death's shadow got their pretty easily. It's hard for burn to play around daze very effectively so a quick threat and some permission makes it pretty easy.
Game 3 was very close, I ended up winning at 1 life on the back of an early death's shadow and the extra counter spells to keep me alive when I was around 5 life. Keeping a force for a sandbagged price of progress on the final turn was pretty sweet.
I never fetched for a shock in any of the three games, which was great for not dying.
Round 3 vs UW mentor / back to basics (1-2)
Game 1 was extremely grindy. I had some early thoughtseizes to take out snapcasters. My first 4 threats got plowed, so I was able to pretty aggressively dismember/snuff out mentors and snaps to get big hits in. Our deck is so good at being able to manipulate our own life total getting hit with a plow didn't ever feel bad because I got to keep using my resources on their most efficient modes. Eventually I ran him out of removal and landed a big death's shadow backed by a force, and that was enough to take it.
For the next 2 games I think I over sideboarded by trying to not play into plow. Surgical isn't good and I brought in 2. It's probably just right to remove the dazes on the draw, and bring in the library, decays, true-name, and then remove the forces on the play.
Game 2 We had traded off a lot of resources. Surgicaled a plow and then spent most of the game at a low life total. He was flooding out and I ended up thoughtseizing his last spell and then playing a liliana, last hope onto an empty board, he had 4 lands in play, and just an island in hand. Peels Jace off the top and all his brainstorms were excellent so he pulled ahead pretty quickly. He ended up getting a Canonist on the board, couldn't find a removal spell that was castable and then was never able to double spell to get back into the game.
Game 3 wasn't a real game, kept 1 land thoughtseize brainstorm, cards. Thoughtseize him and don't see a ton, take a brainstorm. He just plays a land. I miss on my land drop and try to brainstorm, get flusterstormed. He goes land go again, I miss, play a delver, it gets plowed. He untaps plays a land and plays a back to basics, which is basically the game. He resolves a jace two turns later and I still just have the tapped land. My keep was pretty sketchy in hindsight, lessons learned.
Definitely a winnable matchup, very interactive and interesting. Don't overboard and just get them with tons of must answer threats and discard, free removal, and counter spells.
Round 4 vs lands (2-0)
Game 1 I drew a very discard heavy hand which was very bad against them but helpful for lowering my life total. He has loam and maze of ith early, figure I'm probably dead but I have 2 death's shadow in my hand so I hope if I can get myself low enough I can maybe kill him over 2 turns by wastelanding maze of ith and then countering life from the loam. I set up for this by thoughtseizing him when I know he has just lands in hand, daze it and return a watery grave to my hand, pay with a wasteland. Lets me play a 6/6 death's shadow with the extra damage, which is important because grove/punishing fire can get you. Next turn I waste him, whack him with the shadow, play the 2nd. He goes for the loam on this turn and I force which leaves him dead to both shadow even with a grove activation.
-2 dismember, 4 thoughtseize. +3 surgical, +1 pithing needle, +1 edict, +1 true-name. I think thoughtseize is bad here just because they're so redundant and have so many lands. I considered that it does help you surgical their loam easier but that didn't seem worth it. I left in the snuff outs because sometimes they play tracker, but decay could be reasonable if you think they'll board in chalices or something.
Game 2 he has loam early again, but I ponder into surgical and death's shadow. Lets me extract all his loams, play a threat, and then a brainstorm finds needle on thespian's stage which locks up his last out of throwing a 20/20 out there. Shadow kills him a couple turns later.
Lots of fun, deck felt awesome, pretty cool for a Tuesday. The sideboard needs tuning for sure, but the more legacy tournaments that happen post ban the easier it'll be to figure that out.
Hey guys. I am looking for cool tempo deck in legacy and because of original dual lands price i really do not like to spent a lot of money for RUG Delver or something like that. So i choose between UR Delver (without volcanics at the beginning) and UB Death's Shadow. I enjoy playing Grixis DS in modern cos it is a only one truly tempo deck in the format but the poor quality of modern cantrips make the deck sometimes lose to itself. But in legacy on a pair with strong cantrips we have Swords which (as my friends told me) crushs DS decks pretty easily. After the ban of shaman and probe there will be more white decks which use "swords" (Dnt, Miracles. maverick, blades) in meta. I do not have experience in playing DS in legacy so i want to ask you is it very frustrating to play with DS against Swords Decks, and do we have enough gas to stabilize after our big creatures killed by this white removal spell? Thanks a lot.
8th & 15th at SCG Legacy classic Worchester
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1199465#paper
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1199472#paper
The guy finishing 8th has the most ambitious sb plan ever seen by mankind
Playing 61 cards main to boot. Ballsy.The guy finishing 8th has the most ambitious sb plan ever seen by mankind
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
A card I've always wanted to see in a Death's Shadow shell is 1-2 copies if Painful Truths. This deck runs out of gas very quickly in my experience, and being able to control the lifeless to a certain degree (Converge) is relevant as well against other equally aggressive strategies.
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Looks like this deck is putting up good numbers as of late. With all the swords running around, I just don’t see how this deck wins.
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The deck wins by turning corners fast. Giving them life and removing their threats both serve to prolong the game, but that's all.
Having to put yourself within bolt range to make some of your major threats active is dangerous business though.
been discussing a Grixis shell on the discord (https://discord.gg/VbdVVHv). Here's a starting base I'll be testing for the coming weeks, both online and at locals
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Death's Shadow
4x Street Wraith
3x Gurmag Angler
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
2x Thought Scour
2x Stubborn Denial
1x Fatal Push
1x Dismember
3x Lightning Bolt
2x Temur Battle Rage
4x Thoughtseize
1x Blood Crypt
1x Badlands
2x Watery Grave
1x Underground Sea
1x Steam Vents
4x Wasteland
3x Polluted Delta
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Scalding Tarn
Sideboard:
2x Abrade
1x Darkblast
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Pyroblast
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Winter Orb
3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Toxic Deluge
Top 4 of the protour...
Pro Tour 25A Team CFB Top 4 Legacy
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Thoughtseize
2 Snuff Out
2 Fatal Push
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Preordain
4 Daze
2 Stubborn Denial
4 Force of Will
3 Watery Grave
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
(9 Fetchlands)
1 Flats
1 Tarn
1 Delta
1 Rainforest
1 Strand
2 Mire
2 Catacombs
3 Dread of Night
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Throne of Geth
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Diabolic Edict
Interesting Notes:
a) 1 Preordain over 4th Ponder as a hedge, because in the late game you won't want to play a third or 4th land to get a shuffle effect
b) Throne of Geth as anti-chalice tech (You proliferate the charge counters from 1 to 2, which means it doesn't counter any of your cards anymore and now counters the opponent's 2 drops, including further chalice on 1, Grim Monolith, Arcbound Ravager, etc)
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