Hey Hardcore, thanks for the feedback!
I read the article you mentioned. It was a nice read, but the real gem was in another article that was mentioned during the general tips: http://www.starcitygames.com/article...ase-Study.html. This second link explains the process behind the elephant method ("Writing out ideal realistic lists for all matchups and then trying to make the unique cards in those lists add up to 75 cards before deciding on the specific 60 for the maindeck and the specific fifteen for the sideboard").
I'll try to do the same with my current list to get to a new 75 cards. I'll make sure to share my results with you guys.
On playing more than 60 cards, I strongly advise against that. By doing that you are lowering the chances of drawing a specific card and you lose consistence because your land to cards ratio is not the same anymore. Imagine the pain of nothing being able to find lands after a wasteland or your own smallpox.
My mana base is good enough that the land ratis change only marginally. Then adding cards change the dynamic of the deck. For example access to massacre may mean in don't need to play Pox aggressively. This obviously help vs DnT. Note that the common advice would be cut a Pox for the massacre, BUT I want to have both. First I want to play massacre and after that Pox as Coup de grace.
The Elephant is useful in order to think holistically about deck and sideboard against all opponents. This doesn't mean one will use it for one's own design however. The reason is that the method is more suited to some decks than others. A typical example is combo. A player of such a deck, like storm, want to make the minimum necessary changes when Sideboarding in order to not compromise the function of his deck.
Are wizards unhinged or just cynical?
The new cards in the 2019 core set add more hate cards to the pool.
A favorite is Alpine Moon , with Mistcaller close second.
It seems to confirm my suspicion that rather than bans the preferred method to keep brokenness in check is to print new cards.
On the subject of storm there appears to be a hate cards in Amulet of Safekeeping .
I'm going to be taking Pox ("aggro" pox?) to a local in a couple weeks, my first ever legacy tournament. I'll probably make mistakes and i have no idea what the meta is now, but it is what it is.
Here is what I currently have/am thinking about taking.
14 swamp
4 Mishra's factory
4 Wasteland
3 urborg
4 pox
4 small pox
4 hymn to tourach
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 innocent blood
4 liliana of the veil
4 bloodghast
4 shrieking affliction
3 liliana, the last hope
I currently have no sideboard, but have/am considering the following:
4 Leyline of the void
4 extirpate (may not need 8 slots dedicated to grave hate)
4 pithing needle
3 toxic deluge
Some thoughts I am hoping others can provide input on, or cards I have that I can bring in. My heart is mostly on big pox for nostalgia sake if nothing else, but:
-4 pox
+2 karn, scion of urza
+2 delve creature of choice (plays nicer with Lili, last hope)
Also considering going with the 4th urborg.
I tried 8 rack for a while but that felt like too many conditional damage sources that were problematic if i drew too many too early.
I do have 2 collective brutality available, 3 thoughtsieze, 4 fatal push, as well as 2 ensnaring bridge and 2 bitterblossoms (courtesy of Mr. Safety) available for tech in the main or side. I have a lone chains but without search or draw it seems pointless to stick it in. I also have storm/control hate cards in defense grid (seems unnecessary) and damping sphere. or whatever that dominaria one was that slows tron and storm, potentially.
If i go the delve creature route, I can bring in fetches and fewer wasteland/mishra's to fill the yard and get landfall triggers.
hardcore is our resident aggro pox master, hopefully he can help you
if you're going aggro, i wouldn't sub in Karn for big Pox, he's more of a control advantage card, and you want to close the game fast. better to make them lose 1/3 of their life. some delve threats might be ok, though they die to all your reciprocal sac effects. i think they're stronger in a control shell as well.
fetches do seem good if you have them.
my feeling is that you might want more wincons than 4x ghast 4x affliction 4x factory. maybe a couple Nihilith? I've seen that in Hardcore's lists.
is there a reason you're not playing dark ritual? you have a lot of busted turn 1 plays and with 8 poxes you'll be hurting for mana a lot so drawing it won't be dead that often
extirpate should be surgical, if you can do it, but like you said, probably don't need that much grave hate. maybe bitterblossom for the control matches? lost legacy is also good at crippling decks with few wincons (sneak & show, miracles, ANT). could put Karns in the board for grindier matchups
another cute thing you can do is buried alive for 3x bloodghasts (or other creatures that might be good in the yard). might be a bit too spicy but thought why not suggest it.
overall i like how streamlined your deck looks. seems like a lot of fun to play. let us know how it goes!
Don't recall, Don't imagine, Don't think, Don't examine, Don't control, Rest
aslidsiksoraksi gives good advice.
- Fetches for Bloodghast are necessary.
- one buried alive is just right.
- Four dark rituals are never wrong.
- 12 win conditions is enough.
- A clunky mana base is best to avoid. Wasteland and Mishra's slows you down. Stick to swamp and fetches.
- Spells that cost four mana are too clunky. Karn is for control Pox decks.
- Nihilith and Shrieking Affliction both confuse opponents. May confuse you too. Tombstalker is more straightforward. His best buddies are the ghasts that protect him from Pox. See first point.
- Pox is more valuable than LotV.
- Inquisition and similar spells are weak. Best kept in the sideboard against combo.
- Collective Brutality is more versatile than Innocent Blood.
I could go on but will emphasize the important point; Aggro and control have different goals, works differently and have different card requirements.
This means that while the big black card pool is the same you don't pick the same cards from it.
Pox+Shrieking affliction = <3
* Bloodghasts are unplayable without fetches.
* Buried Alive is casual fodder. Not playable in a competitive legacy environment.
* Wasteland is crucial to a disruptive deck.
* Big pox is unplayable. And LotV is a top tier card. Almost every Pox deck that has had tourney success has run her.
* Dark Rituals belong in combo decks. Pox decks rely on virtual card advatange and top decks. I'm not saying they are unplayable, but they do make your deck more inconsistent.
* T1 discard spells are crucial in legacy. How do you fight against decks like show and tell or storm if you just pass T1?
* If you are not running 4 innocent blood, why are you even playing Pox? In a format filled with Deathrite Shamans and Delvers, Collective Brutaily is just so slow and just walks you into a daze.
Blockers will be a problem, so Deluge is good...but I might hedge against that and play 1-2x Darkblast, especially with 4x Bloodghast. Dredging them is straight up gas.
Extirpate is a 2-of at best, I think. With 4x leyline you're really looking for an edge against combo, not dredge/reanimator when you turn to Extirpate/Surgical. I would probably cut 2x Extirpate for 2x Darkblast, or at least 2x Collective Brutality (which is also straight up gas with Bloodghasts.)
3x Liliana, the Last Hope main is a little too much I think. Two should be *plenty* and I think this is where you can squeeze in something like Maze of Ith, Cabal Pit, Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy, or even a Duress. I would probably cut to only 1 LtLH and play 2x Duress maindeck. Pox and LtlH do very similar things, but her second ability is really poor in pox. First and last are nuts, so definitely 1 copy is fine.
Where are those Bitterblossoms I traded you?!?!? This is what I would do:
-2 Liliana, the last Hope
-1 Pox
+2 Duress (or Karns if you have them)
+1 Cabal Pit
Sideboard
-2 Extirpate
-2 Pithing Needle
-1 Toxic Deluge
+2 Collective Brutality
+2 Bitterblossom
+1 Darkblast
I like the quad-laser approach quite a bit, it gives a ton of consistency, but once you are dedicated to 25 lands you have to start thinking about 'do I want 3-ofs or do I want to dedicate 3 slots to singletons.' Crucible of Worlds, Maze of Ith, Toxic Deluge, Ratchet Bomb, all of these are perfectly fine as singletons.
Good luck!
EDIT: another reason for getting land #26 in there is because Pox is rough on your own mana, and 8 of your cards aren't lands without Urborg (Wasteland/Factory.)
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I wasn't sure if bitterblossom went well with big pox. Between that, fetches and pox that is a LOT of self inflicted life loss and wasn't sure if putting myself into range of a few bolts was a great idea. I was thinking those would be more sideboard tech that I would pull big pox out for if it came down to it. But it certainly protects delve creatures/gives blockers/rebuilds the board quickly.
I've pulled out 3 urborg, 2 factory, 1 wasteland for 6 fetches in the mean time to try out and the mana base does feel a lot better. I don't know I am comfortable completely cutting wasteland as it seems very versatile in the format, but again I have no idea. I temporarily pulled big pox in favor of delve creatures and left the rest the same, and it handled my G/R aggro deck better (all I've had time to test against), for what that is worth. Not sure if that will stay since I want to play big pox IF I can make it work or at least not be terrible.
In response to the others:
-I don't have surgical now, only have extirpate, which is why that is there. Someday...
-IoK and similar cards being weak is a bit surprising to me. Is that comment made to imply thoughtsieze is better or all one mana for one card cards are not great in that build?
-I keep forgetting about maze of ith and ratchet bomb. this is where lack of experience hurts as I don't run into problem creatures/permanents often vs my limited pool of decks.
-on the way to work this morning, I had a terrible idea of considering prized amalgram along side the bloodghasts. But that is probably 100% too cute for competitive decks.
-regarding dark rits, I had pulled them as the consensus seemed to be split, and it gave me 4 more slots for tech. Since everything was 3 or less mana I didn't think it was terribly necessary but maybe I misunderstood the builds people were saying it was needed/not needed in.
thanks for the feedback on the rest, plenty I had overlooked. with the exception of nether void builds, I can put together just about any version of mono black pox or vaka pox (the Bw build, right?). Big pox agro was the one I was wanting to start with. I'm sure I'll find my sweet spot after getting it to some real events in due time.
[I'll photograph your wedding for Reserved List cards]
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I play control but LOVE the aggro variants. A few thoughts on ronco's list.
In an aggro shell, absolutely. Every now and again I jam a singleton alongside a Nether Spirit without fetches.Bloodghasts & fetches
I absolutely agree with Pittplayer on this. It's a 3 drop that doesn't do anything to disrupt. While it is a little cute, I can get behind an Entomb package as Bloodghast #5 or Raven's Crime or Darkblast or whatever.Buried Alive
You would be fine jamming all the Urborgs. You are going to sacrifice them left and right when you aren't discarding them. They also make your fetches a lot better.Urborg
This deck wants to blow up stuff. Although there is a tinge of nonbo with Affliction.Wasteland
Big Pox isn't unplayable. It's not as good as Lil' V but if you want to jam it this is the shell. When playing this version I would cast Liliana first to clear the way for Pox. If they Force her Pox hits harder and if they Daze her Pox hits harder. This can also mean if you are on the draw they have 4 lands by the time you hit 3, killing more lands.Originally Posted by pittplayer
I don't play Rituals, but I think you should. T1 Liliana with your deck is going to be back breaking. You can also run into black mana problems if you keep blowing up you own lands. They aren't horrible late here.Dark Ritual
I personally have been trimming the numbers but I might have gone a little far recently. 3-5 is definitely worthwhile. In this aggro list, if they want to jam Big Pox IOK is superior to Thoughtseize. If you are blowing up their lands they are going to be casting cmc 1-3 more often than 4+. The life loss is annoying but not horrible. If you fire the Thoughtseize first the numbers can be fudged. (This is also something to note with your fetches. You can mitigate some life loss by losing it elsewhere.)1 cmc discard
1 mana removal spells are important, especially when blowing your own lands. Fatal Push slid into some IB slots. I run 3 IB and 2 FP.4 innocent blood...
Not with Big Pox.Bitterblossom
p.s. With Pox and a Lil' Hope ult, you could view this as 17 wincons.Originally Posted by Suggested Numbers
[I'll photograph your wedding for Reserved List cards]
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http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/35136
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The statement 'Wasteland is crucial to a disruptive deck' needs a bit more unpacking and Prison decks also play 1-shot accelerants but the rest of this is a good post I think
(Buried alive has had some success in the necrotic ooze deck but that's obviously an entirely different conversation)
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