Sorry to here about your tough tournament. It sounded fun. To clear things up though, the TES match up is really tough whether you have Chalice or not, so don't beat yourself up on it. Whether you mulled correctly is a tough call, but whether he had a turn 1 or turn 2 kill or answers to your Chalice/Thorn is also tough to read. There really isn't much Goblins can do unless you are packing a lot of hate. A suggestion I might add to your combo hate board (although I like Thorn as the 5th Chalice) is that playing varying types of combo hate is more important than playing a redudancy of combo hate. You are probably better off with 3x Chalice and 3x Mindbreak Trap as having to find a solution to your artifact and needing to Duress you is much harder than just needing to get rid of your Chalice. I suggest 3 of each because multiple Chalices are not strong against TES and Mindbreak Trap is better on the draw so I think a 3/3 split is good. This is only if you are playing in a heavy combo environment though.
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
We have a turn 3/4 kill hand & combo hate -> Go for it... It doesn't really get any better than this
We have a turn 3 kill hand -> Don't mull, go for it and prey that the combo player doesn't have his very best hand
We have mediocre hand with two combo hate pieces -> Go for it... and hope that you have enough time to reach lethal damage any time soon
We have a mediocre hand -> mulligan
We have a mediocre hand & combo hate -> Go for it or mulligan (success almost completely depends on their hand)
Of course it's a bit more complicated, but these are my rough guidelines.
If you are really keen on increasing your chances vs combo without polluting your sideboard to much you could add Inquisition of Kozilek to your main board. After sideboarding you can have have eight anti combo cards. I ran that for a week or so instead of lightning bolts and it was ok. Yes it's a horrible mid-late game top deck but it takes care of so much more just little creatures. A lot of hands suddenly look a lot worse if you can remove a key. I also won a few matches simply because I could adjust my game plan early on (deciding to go all in aggro or lean back a bit and take the aggro control route). I'm not saying that this was ideal but It might be useful for some people.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
Cabal Therapy is a very different card than Inquisition of Kozilek. I'm not saying that people should run either one of them... I'm currently in favour of running 0 of both. But I think that we all agree that it's not really an option to spend more than 4 or 5 sideboard slots on combo without weakening our other match-ups. Inquisition always hits something if you use it on the first couple of turns, Cabal Therapy doesn't... that's a huge difference. Sure the Stingscourger combo is great but it doesn't work in the combo match-up.
On the Goblin Lookout suggestion. I think it's definitely worth trying as a one off. In some situations (with blockers) the +2 to every goblin can be a lot more significant than tutoring for a Piledriver when going for an alpha strike.
But then we get into the discussion again that Cabal Therapy, or Inquisition for that matter, can be more general applied than Chalice.
If I would run Cabal Therapy then I would also run another form of discard like Duress or Inquisition next to it instead of Chalice.
Quit playing Legacy but could still play Goblins (Rgw, Rg, Rw, Rb)
ジェームス・ブラウン
I'm staring in the mirror looking at my biggest rival.
Indeed. Cabal therapy can hit multiple cards, moat, jace TMS, wrath/damnation, ad nauseam, fow etc...
You rarely want to play discard on turn 1. Goblins Turn 1 drops are really powerful, but only on turn 1. Cabal therapy is more of a turn 2/turn 3 card against most decks. If I had to play discard main deck other than cabal therapy I think I would even play mesmeric fiend before inquisition because IoK can't take care of a lot of problematic cards for the deck.
So when you cast it on turn 2-3 you can narrow down the number of targets and you can sacrifice a goblin, the deck is full of useless creatures that already have done most of their job when coming into play.
Also when you hit the first time (whether you were lucky, had a good read, had a stingscourger, took advantage of cards like Silvergill Adept/stoneforge mystic etc... ) you play 2 disrupts in one and each can discard multiples.
That's only when you run sideboard slots dedicated to combo though. There are a lot flexible cards that can improve your combo match-up. The best example is probably discard which advantagely replace all your useless removal against combo and control.
Well please explain to me how warren weirding + lightning bolt will help you more than stingscourger + cabal therapy against combo.^^
Really guys it's not that I want to argue that my list is the perfect goblins list. In the last years I rarely posted because I usually don't care about proving my choices are the best.
But I spent a great amount of time playing this format and goblins is one of the decks I spent the most time on.
I have been playing mogg war marshalls months before everyone when zoo was on the rise.
I then replaced mogg fanatics with lightning bolts also months before everyone when M10 rules were released.
I have now been playing main deck cabal therapy for 6 months. Stingscourgers are as great as a tempo tool as MWM and cabal therapy is even more flexible than lightning bolt. They are not strictly superior, but all in all they just have more to offer.
I usually don't mind but I can't understand why you are giving priority to testing jank like goblin lookout, when a whole new vision on the deck is posted. Is this because it would make too much change in your pet list ? Easier to test a singleton ? I assure you you will learn a lot more in testing my list than in testing a singleton common that never made the cut before.
CLICK HERE FOR THE RULES OF A VERY FUN MULTIPLAYER CASUAL FORMAT
You very likely can build it without spending any money, just out of what you already have.
An example with my (very large) list in a visual form
That's not even what he meant. He's just saying that CT's interaction with Stingscourger is irrelevant in the combo MU because you usually side him out.
Thanks for the intel, but this doesn't help us with the topic(s) we are discussing.
The point is that you and those guys that top8'ed at SCG Open have already proven that Cabal Therapy is a very good card. Therefore you guys saved our time testing the card - e.g.: at the end of last year with the news of Survival's banning we already talked about how to change the deck. That's when I wanted to try out Cabal Therapy. Then you posted your list with CT and shortly thereafter 2 decks made it to top 8 with Cabal therapy. Because of this I didn't have to test CT anymore because now I know that the card is worth it. That's why I integrated it to my SB (as a result of that I'm "forced" to drop my beloved Leyline of the Void - but that's a different topic).
Lookout is different: It extends the "abuse-MWM"-thought that was introduced and it was rarely seen before. This idea is different from CT because it needs to be tested while CT is already proven to be good. Without MWM though I'd run neither the one nor the other.
Testing your list (or copying any other list 1:1) is not a good idea at all because everyone has his/her own playing style and favored card-choices (e.g. Tacosnape likes his Warren Instigators, I love Leyline of the Void). If you want people to build decks similar to yours you should spent some more time on explaining your other revolutionary card-choices (no offense intended: I mean it and I really like to read your agruments for cards like Sparksmith).
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
I got balled up by Lejay's Goblins last night. Stingscourger and Therapy wrecked me G1. He bounced a Noble Hierarch, Therapied it and then flashed to take both my Plows. It took all my removal and kept me off RWM mana. Therapy single-handedly won that game. I took G2 on the back of a massive KotR and Dueling Grounds (although Therapy did hit my Umezawa's Jitte), so effectively, that G1 Therapy bought him the match.
Obviously 1 match doesn't mean anything, but Goblins has so many ways to flash Therapy for free between MWM and Stingscourger that there's no reason not to run Therapy first.
that sounds way better than my argument.
Is this a Goblin Lackey, Mountain, Mountain, Goblin War Chief, triple Piledriver hand?
Chalice for one hits about 20% of all cards used in the Legacy metagame. I'm just saying....
Its not that no one agrees with you. It's just that I don't agree with you.. no I'm just kidding. What I wanted to say was its not that I am dismissing your list as not viable. I was simply stirring up discussion by giving you a hard time. There are good points to your argument, I just wanted to put out the bad points to the argument as well and let people decide whether they want to use it or not.
Goblin Lookout isn't as good as Goblin Matron, but he is just starting a topic for us to discuss. We aren't saying it is more viable than Cabal Therapy. No one is agreeing that Inquisition is better than Cabal Therapy. We are simply discussing options, merits and disadvantages.
I hope my views on Cabal Therapy do not discourage you from posting.
yeah if you are psychic... yeah they are totally different things.. I've since cut my combo hate from my sideboard. I feel that a faster clock + our mana denial should be enough to stop storm combo decks. I just want to find more piledrivers... to help me get that so called turn 3 kill hand Avatara was talking about.
No, it's a Lackey, Piledriver, SGC, 2 Mountain hand.
This isn't even an argument against combo-hate.
First: without combo hate in your siedeboard you have "dead" cards in MD against combo (aka removal)
Second: Cabal Therapy isn't even dedicated combo-hate. You can use it in a variety of MU where it hits obvious winconditions even without flashback (and thus without being psychic)
In your first post on this page you wrote that TES is a tough MU. Thats only true when your sideboard doesn't contain combohate. Many comboplayers are a paranoid bunch of doomsayers. They won't take us lightly at any time of the match, just because they know that we have access to so many different combo-hate cards. As anecdotal evidence: on the Dutch Legacy champs I kept a rather fast hand (without combo hate) by confidently saying "Keep". My opp told me afterwards that he mulled to 5 to find duress or orim's chant, just because he feared combo hate. Mind game them...they always expect us to have either combo hate on our opening hand or to take mulligan to find some. That makes them keep slow hand with protection-spells.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
There isn't a ton of combo in my meta. I really only noticed 2 or 3 Storm Combo decks in the 40 person tourney. My singleton Thorn of Amethyst was just to fill a blank spot in my side. I'm not a huge fan of it because my favorite piece of combo hate has to be Chalice of the Void. I think running 5 pieces of combo hate is reasonable, but I'm not diversifying out my 4 Chalices because I love them too much.
Why I Love Chalice-
- It turns off 10-12 free spells that give free mana (Petal, Mox, LED) in their deck (TES, ANT, Belcher) when you play it for 0. These spells not only accelerate their mana, but also serve as important enablers for their Tutors. With Chalice at 0 they can't play an LED to sack in response to an Infernal Tutor or Burning Wish, which in turn makes those tutor cards much less efficient for their gameplan.
- Chalice is the fastest and most resilient threat against storm combo. On the draw, any hate card can be Duressed away, whether it's Chalice or Mindbreak or Thorn. On the play Chalice can be played alongside a 1-drop T1. A T1 Chalice cannot be negated by T2 discard effects or Orim's Chant/Silence/Xantid Swarm effects. Since Storm Combo decks usually run hand disruption rather than removal, having a permanent in play against them is prefered.
I like your summation of mulling situations vs Combo, and I agree with all but the last one. Mediocre hand+combo hate=go for it. Mulling at that point will likely draw you a hand just as mediocre and without combo hate.
I also don't like the idea of main-deck discard. It works for Bg/w aggro-control strategies because they have better creatures than we do and can afford to run only 12-16 MD creatures. We can't. We need every creature slot we can to keep the horde moving.
that's not a 3rd turn hand. Żou don't have haste. No wonder you are GoboLord, your Goblins have auto-haste...
It isn't an argument against combo. If you read the post before, we are discussing the applications of Cabal Therapy and Chalice of the Void outside of combo. But to be clear, all of our removal (well mine, since I don't play Warren Weirding) are creatures, so I don't really have dead cards in the match up. I have slow cards. I'm not hating on Cabal Therapy, calm down.
Well obviously I tested various combo-hate boards before I decided that the effort is useless. I wouldn't say it is a tough matchup without trying to sideboard heavily. I've tried his 4x Chalice of the Void, 1x Thorn of Amethyst set up before I decided that having it or not having it doesn't really matter. Again you are supporting my theory. Having combo hate is pointless. You just have to bluff them out and you can win. My game plan is board in some aggro cards (so far my Goblin Chieftain is all I got) and then talk about mindbreak traps when I start boarding.
It's pretty awesome. Obviously I tell them that I never drew it afterwards so I could use it again next time. LOL
You don't have to convince me why Chalice of the Void is good. If I had to choose only 1 combo-hate to win, I'd choose Chalice, but the fact of the matter is if you hope to actually hate out combo, you must diversify your hate. I play TES, so you don't have to tell me they might Duress it away. Against inexperienced combo players, they might not Duress you after seeing that you are Goblins game 1. On game 3, if they decide to Duress you, if you have both Mindbreak Trap and Chalice, they have a difficult choice. Obviously they are going to take the Chalice, but I'm just saying. Slowing them down helps.
Chalice of the Void is the most annoying thing to remove, but they can remove it. So why bother having 5 Chalices which they can remove when you can diversify let them have more problems. Sometimes, they are short on mana and won't Duress you on the combo turn. It happens. Double Dark Ritual Ad Nauseam only makes 5 mana. Not to mention that plays around Chalice and right into Mindbreak Trap.
I'm not saying Chalice of the Void is bad, I'm just saying go big, or go home.
T1 Mountain, lackey
T2 Mountain, attack with Lackey for 1, trigger SGC into play, cast Piledriver
T3 Attack with lackey, tokens, SGC and a 11/2 Piledriver for 17 damage. Sac a token off SGC for 2 damage. 1+17+2= 20 and a T3 kill.
So what's "big"? No combo hate or 6 SB slots of combo hate? As a TES player, what would you reasonably expect a SB look like to beat you?
Why are you guys so afraid of Combo? It's a hard matchup, I know, but it doesn't need 6 SB slots for it... 4 Chalice of the Void is usually enough (since it can be used in another matchups as well). If you split 3 CotV and 3 Mindbreak trap, along with 3 Pyrokinesis and 3 Kgrips or 3 Cabal Therapy, there isn't much space left for Graveyard hate, or even artifact hate... You'll rape Combo and get raped by any deck that abuses GY (aka Dredge/Aggro Loam/KotR stuff/Reanimator), or even Affinity, which is usually a good matchup. I'd give priority to popular decks... Even in a "heavy" Combo metagame, I'd only expect to see 2~3 out of 10 players, because it's an expensive and complex deck to play.
You are not going to "rape" combo decks with 6 sideboard cards with this deck. Literally, the only relevant maindeck cards you have are Wasteland and maybe Port (and Port is not especially effective at all). Like you said in the second part, your best hope against combo is praying not to see it in significant numbers. Banking on the control decks sending it to the lower tables and then beating up on control decks is a perfectly legitimate metagame strategy though.
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