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Thread: [DTB] Vial Goblins

  1. #6081

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post
    This month’s tournament I sleeved up R/B Goblins and took the field of about 40 players head on.
    My deck runs 3 each of Chieftain, Warchief, and MWM, plus 4 Gempalms and 2 Weirdings. SB was 4 Tormod’s Crypt, 4 Chalice of the Void, 1 Thorn of Amethyst, 4 Pyrokinesis and 2 Shattering Spree.
    R1 TES
    I think I was on the play and lost G1. G2 I sided in 4 Chalice of the Void and 1 Thorn of Amethyst (and 2 Pyrokinesis since he was running Red and could very well be playing Empty the Warrens). I mulled, looking for hate. I saw none and mulled down to 5. Still none, but my hand had Wasteland and Piledriver, so I kept. I had no one-drop, so it was land-go. He fetched an Underground and Duressed me, getting nothing. I played Waste, then pondered whether to play Piledriver or Waste his Sea. I went the mana denial route. He had no T2 play. I then topdecked a Thorn of Amethyst and played it off of my third land. He had no response, and Piledriver+Warchief got there. G3 was abysmal. Once again I mulled to 5, looking for hate. None to be found. Instead of mulling to 4 I hoped to topdeck something playable. This was a mistake, as my 5 had no 1-drop or Wasteland, so he Pondered T1 and went off T2. Shoulda mulled to hate. I took away from this match that against combo, mulling to hate is necessary, especially when you’re on the draw G3. Being the drawing player means you don’t have to decide to mulligan until you know whether or not your opponent is mulling. If they’re keeping their opening 7 you’d better mull into something good, whether or not you have hate.
    R2 Staxx
    Dumb deck, and my opponent was a dick. No worries though. Beat him 2-0. I don’t understand why Staxx is an archetype. If you find yourself in this match, MWM really shines. Sack for Smokestack? It just so happens I have a MWM here that I don’t feel like paying the echo for. I wound up adding permanents to the field while he had to sack a land, then his smokestack. He was so upset that he almost knocked the table over, banging into it hard as he stood to leave, muttering about how he “hasn’t lost to Goblins in years”.
    R3 Zoo
    I made a huge mistake G1. I had finally created some board position with a Piledriver, matron, and token in play. I was staring down Nacatl, Lavamancer, and Steppe Lynx. I knew if I attacked into that board my Piledriver would be torched and a Nacatle would eat another, but I attacked anyway. I should have tried to develop more. I might have been able to turn the game around. I sided out Piledrivers and Aether Vials for Chalice of the Voids and Pyrokinesis. The look on my opponent’s face when I cast Chalice at 1 turn 2 was priceless. Another Chalice showed up and I played it for 2 after clearing his board with a Pyrokinesis. On to Game 3. I sided out the Chalices because for Vials because Chalice doesn’t seem nearly as good on the draw. This game was super drawn out. Mghy Ringleaders could have been better to me, but they weren’t, and I couldn’t draw it out all the way. Also, he landed a T2 Sylvan Library, which is just plain old awesome.

    So, I played badly G1 against Zoo and got unlucky G3 when my multiple Ringleaders couldn’t draw me out. I was lucky to win G2 against TES, but was unlucky G3 in being completely unable to find a Chalice. The result was 1-2, drop. I really punted G1 against Zoo, and I feel like I should have won G3 but he had that T2 Library which makes that deck so much stronger than it is without. My draws were pretty weak throughout the day too. I never hit a 1-drop or hate against TES. Also, I’m not sure if I should have sided out the Chalices G3 against Zoo… Dunno. They seem bad on the draw, but I guess Pyrokinesis makes it pretty easy to clear their board so maybe I should have kept the Chalices around.

    Also, I had a Magic first while playing a game before the tournament! I was playing RB Goblins against my friend’s Show and Tell. I went first and played a mountain and a vial. My friend just played a land. My second turn I upped Vial to 1, played a second land, and cast a Piledriver. My friend played Ancient Tomb, Show and Tell, Emrakul, and I put a Siege-Gang Commander on the table. My third turn I upped Vial to 2 and attacked with my 5 goblins. Emrakul blocked the Piledriver (9/2) so in response to blockers I Vialed in a MWM then Gempalmed Emrakul for 7 for a total of 16 damage! Dead Emrakul, won game!
    Sorry to here about your tough tournament. It sounded fun. To clear things up though, the TES match up is really tough whether you have Chalice or not, so don't beat yourself up on it. Whether you mulled correctly is a tough call, but whether he had a turn 1 or turn 2 kill or answers to your Chalice/Thorn is also tough to read. There really isn't much Goblins can do unless you are packing a lot of hate. A suggestion I might add to your combo hate board (although I like Thorn as the 5th Chalice) is that playing varying types of combo hate is more important than playing a redudancy of combo hate. You are probably better off with 3x Chalice and 3x Mindbreak Trap as having to find a solution to your artifact and needing to Duress you is much harder than just needing to get rid of your Chalice. I suggest 3 of each because multiple Chalices are not strong against TES and Mindbreak Trap is better on the draw so I think a 3/3 split is good. This is only if you are playing in a heavy combo environment though.

  2. #6082
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jin View Post
    Sorry to here about your tough tournament. It sounded fun. To clear things up though, the TES match up is really tough whether you have Chalice or not, so don't beat yourself up on it. Whether you mulled correctly is a tough call, but whether he had a turn 1 or turn 2 kill or answers to your Chalice/Thorn is also tough to read. There really isn't much Goblins can do unless you are packing a lot of hate. A suggestion I might add to your combo hate board (although I like Thorn as the 5th Chalice) is that playing varying types of combo hate is more important than playing a redudancy of combo hate. You are probably better off with 3x Chalice and 3x Mindbreak Trap as having to find a solution to your artifact and needing to Duress you is much harder than just needing to get rid of your Chalice. I suggest 3 of each because multiple Chalices are not strong against TES and Mindbreak Trap is better on the draw so I think a 3/3 split is good. This is only if you are playing in a heavy combo environment though.
    When the meta makes you devote 6 slots to combo in your SB, you are playing the wrong deck.
    This looks like a job for me.

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  3. #6083

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Nidd View Post
    When the meta makes you devote 6 slots to combo in your SB, you are playing the wrong deck.
    Some people are stubborn, what can I say. I don't, I'm just saying you could if you were in that situation.

  4. #6084
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Nidd View Post
    When the meta makes you devote 6 slots to combo in your SB, you are playing the wrong deck.
    That's a bit quick on the draw, even though you're right. Maybe he only has one deck, or isn't good at playing control/combo?
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  5. #6085
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    We have a turn 3/4 kill hand & combo hate -> Go for it... It doesn't really get any better than this
    We have a turn 3 kill hand -> Don't mull, go for it and prey that the combo player doesn't have his very best hand
    We have mediocre hand with two combo hate pieces -> Go for it... and hope that you have enough time to reach lethal damage any time soon
    We have a mediocre hand -> mulligan
    We have a mediocre hand & combo hate -> Go for it or mulligan (success almost completely depends on their hand)

    Of course it's a bit more complicated, but these are my rough guidelines.

    If you are really keen on increasing your chances vs combo without polluting your sideboard to much you could add Inquisition of Kozilek to your main board. After sideboarding you can have have eight anti combo cards. I ran that for a week or so instead of lightning bolts and it was ok. Yes it's a horrible mid-late game top deck but it takes care of so much more just little creatures. A lot of hands suddenly look a lot worse if you can remove a key. I also won a few matches simply because I could adjust my game plan early on (deciding to go all in aggro or lean back a bit and take the aggro control route). I'm not saying that this was ideal but It might be useful for some people.

  6. #6086
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Avatara View Post
    If you are really keen on increasing your chances vs combo with Goblins you could add Inquisition of Kozilek to your main board. After side boarding I had eight anti combo cards. I ran that for a week or so instead of lightning bolts and it was ok.
    After all the discussion on page 301 this makes me sad. :(
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Lejay View Post
    After all the discussion on page 301 this makes me sad. :(
    Cabal Therapy is a very different card than Inquisition of Kozilek. I'm not saying that people should run either one of them... I'm currently in favour of running 0 of both. But I think that we all agree that it's not really an option to spend more than 4 or 5 sideboard slots on combo without weakening our other match-ups. Inquisition always hits something if you use it on the first couple of turns, Cabal Therapy doesn't... that's a huge difference. Sure the Stingscourger combo is great but it doesn't work in the combo match-up.

    On the Goblin Lookout suggestion. I think it's definitely worth trying as a one off. In some situations (with blockers) the +2 to every goblin can be a lot more significant than tutoring for a Piledriver when going for an alpha strike.

  8. #6088
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    But then we get into the discussion again that Cabal Therapy, or Inquisition for that matter, can be more general applied than Chalice.

    If I would run Cabal Therapy then I would also run another form of discard like Duress or Inquisition next to it instead of Chalice.
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  9. #6089
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Avatara View Post
    Cabal Therapy is a very different card than Inquisition of Kozilek.
    Indeed. Cabal therapy can hit multiple cards, moat, jace TMS, wrath/damnation, ad nauseam, fow etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by Avatara View Post
    Inquisition always hits something if you use it on the first couple of turns, Cabal Therapy doesn't... that's a huge difference.
    You rarely want to play discard on turn 1. Goblins Turn 1 drops are really powerful, but only on turn 1. Cabal therapy is more of a turn 2/turn 3 card against most decks. If I had to play discard main deck other than cabal therapy I think I would even play mesmeric fiend before inquisition because IoK can't take care of a lot of problematic cards for the deck.
    So when you cast it on turn 2-3 you can narrow down the number of targets and you can sacrifice a goblin, the deck is full of useless creatures that already have done most of their job when coming into play.
    Also when you hit the first time (whether you were lucky, had a good read, had a stingscourger, took advantage of cards like Silvergill Adept/stoneforge mystic etc... ) you play 2 disrupts in one and each can discard multiples.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avatara View Post
    But I think that we all agree that it's not really an option to spend more than 4 or 5 sideboard slots on combo without weakening our other match-ups.
    That's only when you run sideboard slots dedicated to combo though. There are a lot flexible cards that can improve your combo match-up. The best example is probably discard which advantagely replace all your useless removal against combo and control.
    Quote Originally Posted by Avatara View Post
    Sure the Stingscourger combo is great but it doesn't work in the combo match-up.
    Well please explain to me how warren weirding + lightning bolt will help you more than stingscourger + cabal therapy against combo.^^




    Really guys it's not that I want to argue that my list is the perfect goblins list. In the last years I rarely posted because I usually don't care about proving my choices are the best.
    But I spent a great amount of time playing this format and goblins is one of the decks I spent the most time on.
    I have been playing mogg war marshalls months before everyone when zoo was on the rise.
    I then replaced mogg fanatics with lightning bolts also months before everyone when M10 rules were released.
    I have now been playing main deck cabal therapy for 6 months. Stingscourgers are as great as a tempo tool as MWM and cabal therapy is even more flexible than lightning bolt. They are not strictly superior, but all in all they just have more to offer.
    I usually don't mind but I can't understand why you are giving priority to testing jank like goblin lookout, when a whole new vision on the deck is posted. Is this because it would make too much change in your pet list ? Easier to test a singleton ? I assure you you will learn a lot more in testing my list than in testing a singleton common that never made the cut before.
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  10. #6090
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Lejay View Post
    Well please explain to me how warren weirding + lightning bolt will help you more than stingscourger + cabal therapy against combo.^^
    That's not even what he meant. He's just saying that CT's interaction with Stingscourger is irrelevant in the combo MU because you usually side him out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lejay View Post
    Really guys it's not that I want to argue that my list is the perfect goblins list. In the last years I rarely posted because I usually don't care about proving my choices are the best.
    But I spent a great amount of time playing this format and goblins is one of the decks I spent the most time on.
    I have been playing mogg war marshalls months before everyone when zoo was on the rise.
    I then replaced mogg fanatics with lightning bolts also months before everyone when M10 rules were released.
    Thanks for the intel, but this doesn't help us with the topic(s) we are discussing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lejay View Post
    I have now been playing main deck cabal therapy for 6 months. Stingscourgers are as great as a tempo tool as MWM and cabal therapy is even more flexible than lightning bolt. They are not strictly superior, but all in all they just have more to offer.
    I usually don't mind but I can't understand why you are giving priority to testing jank like goblin lookout, when a whole new vision on the deck is posted. Is this because it would make too much change in your pet list ? Easier to test a singleton ? I assure you you will learn a lot more in testing my list than in testing a singleton common that never made the cut before.
    The point is that you and those guys that top8'ed at SCG Open have already proven that Cabal Therapy is a very good card. Therefore you guys saved our time testing the card - e.g.: at the end of last year with the news of Survival's banning we already talked about how to change the deck. That's when I wanted to try out Cabal Therapy. Then you posted your list with CT and shortly thereafter 2 decks made it to top 8 with Cabal therapy. Because of this I didn't have to test CT anymore because now I know that the card is worth it. That's why I integrated it to my SB (as a result of that I'm "forced" to drop my beloved Leyline of the Void - but that's a different topic).
    Lookout is different: It extends the "abuse-MWM"-thought that was introduced and it was rarely seen before. This idea is different from CT because it needs to be tested while CT is already proven to be good. Without MWM though I'd run neither the one nor the other.
    Testing your list (or copying any other list 1:1) is not a good idea at all because everyone has his/her own playing style and favored card-choices (e.g. Tacosnape likes his Warren Instigators, I love Leyline of the Void). If you want people to build decks similar to yours you should spent some more time on explaining your other revolutionary card-choices (no offense intended: I mean it and I really like to read your agruments for cards like Sparksmith).
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  11. #6091
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Lejay View Post
    Indeed. Cabal therapy can hit multiple cards, moat, jace TMS, wrath/damnation, ad nauseam, fow etc...


    You rarely want to play discard on turn 1. Goblins Turn 1 drops are really powerful, but only on turn 1. Cabal therapy is more of a turn 2/turn 3 card against most decks. If I had to play discard main deck other than cabal therapy I think I would even play mesmeric fiend before inquisition because IoK can't take care of a lot of problematic cards for the deck.
    So when you cast it on turn 2-3 you can narrow down the number of targets and you can sacrifice a goblin, the deck is full of useless creatures that already have done most of their job when coming into play.
    Also when you hit the first time (whether you were lucky, had a good read, had a stingscourger, took advantage of cards like Silvergill Adept/stoneforge mystic etc... ) you play 2 disrupts in one and each can discard multiples.


    That's only when you run sideboard slots dedicated to combo though. There are a lot flexible cards that can improve your combo match-up. The best example is probably discard which advantagely replace all your useless removal against combo and control.

    Well please explain to me how warren weirding + lightning bolt will help you more than stingscourger + cabal therapy against combo.^^




    Really guys it's not that I want to argue that my list is the perfect goblins list. In the last years I rarely posted because I usually don't care about proving my choices are the best.
    But I spent a great amount of time playing this format and goblins is one of the decks I spent the most time on.
    I have been playing mogg war marshalls months before everyone when zoo was on the rise.
    I then replaced mogg fanatics with lightning bolts also months before everyone when M10 rules were released.
    I have now been playing main deck cabal therapy for 6 months. Stingscourgers are as great as a tempo tool as MWM and cabal therapy is even more flexible than lightning bolt. They are not strictly superior, but all in all they just have more to offer.
    I usually don't mind but I can't understand why you are giving priority to testing jank like goblin lookout, when a whole new vision on the deck is posted. Is this because it would make too much change in your pet list ? Easier to test a singleton ? I assure you you will learn a lot more in testing my list than in testing a singleton common that never made the cut before.
    I got balled up by Lejay's Goblins last night. Stingscourger and Therapy wrecked me G1. He bounced a Noble Hierarch, Therapied it and then flashed to take both my Plows. It took all my removal and kept me off RWM mana. Therapy single-handedly won that game. I took G2 on the back of a massive KotR and Dueling Grounds (although Therapy did hit my Umezawa's Jitte), so effectively, that G1 Therapy bought him the match.

    Obviously 1 match doesn't mean anything, but Goblins has so many ways to flash Therapy for free between MWM and Stingscourger that there's no reason not to run Therapy first.
    Quote Originally Posted by Draener View Post
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  12. #6092

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Nelis View Post
    That's a bit quick on the draw, even though you're right. Maybe he only has one deck, or isn't good at playing control/combo?
    that sounds way better than my argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avatara View Post
    We have a turn 3 kill hand -> Don't mull, go for it and prey that the combo player doesn't have his very best hand
    Is this a Goblin Lackey, Mountain, Mountain, Goblin War Chief, triple Piledriver hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nelis View Post
    But then we get into the discussion again that Cabal Therapy, or Inquisition for that matter, can be more general applied than Chalice.

    If I would run Cabal Therapy then I would also run another form of discard like Duress or Inquisition next to it instead of Chalice.
    Chalice for one hits about 20% of all cards used in the Legacy metagame. I'm just saying....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lejay View Post
    Really guys it's not that I want to argue that my list is the perfect goblins list. In the last years I rarely posted because I usually don't care about proving my choices are the best.
    But I spent a great amount of time playing this format and goblins is one of the decks I spent the most time on.
    I have been playing mogg war marshalls months before everyone when zoo was on the rise.
    I then replaced mogg fanatics with lightning bolts also months before everyone when M10 rules were released.
    I have now been playing main deck cabal therapy for 6 months. Stingscourgers are as great as a tempo tool as MWM and cabal therapy is even more flexible than lightning bolt. They are not strictly superior, but all in all they just have more to offer.
    I usually don't mind but I can't understand why you are giving priority to testing jank like goblin lookout, when a whole new vision on the deck is posted. Is this because it would make too much change in your pet list ? Easier to test a singleton ? I assure you you will learn a lot more in testing my list than in testing a singleton common that never made the cut before.
    Its not that no one agrees with you. It's just that I don't agree with you.. no I'm just kidding. What I wanted to say was its not that I am dismissing your list as not viable. I was simply stirring up discussion by giving you a hard time. There are good points to your argument, I just wanted to put out the bad points to the argument as well and let people decide whether they want to use it or not.

    Goblin Lookout isn't as good as Goblin Matron, but he is just starting a topic for us to discuss. We aren't saying it is more viable than Cabal Therapy. No one is agreeing that Inquisition is better than Cabal Therapy. We are simply discussing options, merits and disadvantages.

    I hope my views on Cabal Therapy do not discourage you from posting.

  13. #6093
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jin View Post
    Chalice for one hits about 20% of all cards used in the Legacy metagame. I'm just saying....
    CT hits much more. Just sayin'. :-) But I understand your point, and I also understand its not quite the same thing.
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  14. #6094

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Nelis View Post
    CT hits at least 3 times more. Just sayin'. :-) But I understand your point, and I also understand its not quite the same thing.
    yeah if you are psychic... yeah they are totally different things.. I've since cut my combo hate from my sideboard. I feel that a faster clock + our mana denial should be enough to stop storm combo decks. I just want to find more piledrivers... to help me get that so called turn 3 kill hand Avatara was talking about.

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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jin View Post
    Is this a Goblin Lackey, Mountain, Mountain, Goblin War Chief, triple Piledriver hand?
    No, it's a Lackey, Piledriver, SGC, 2 Mountain hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by jin View Post
    yeah if you are psychic... yeah they are totally different things.. I've since cut my combo hate from my sideboard. I feel that a faster clock + our mana denial should be enough to stop storm combo decks. I just want to find more piledrivers... to help me get that so called turn 3 kill hand Avatara was talking about.
    This isn't even an argument against combo-hate.
    First: without combo hate in your siedeboard you have "dead" cards in MD against combo (aka removal)
    Second: Cabal Therapy isn't even dedicated combo-hate. You can use it in a variety of MU where it hits obvious winconditions even without flashback (and thus without being psychic)

    In your first post on this page you wrote that TES is a tough MU. Thats only true when your sideboard doesn't contain combohate. Many comboplayers are a paranoid bunch of doomsayers. They won't take us lightly at any time of the match, just because they know that we have access to so many different combo-hate cards. As anecdotal evidence: on the Dutch Legacy champs I kept a rather fast hand (without combo hate) by confidently saying "Keep". My opp told me afterwards that he mulled to 5 to find duress or orim's chant, just because he feared combo hate. Mind game them...they always expect us to have either combo hate on our opening hand or to take mulligan to find some. That makes them keep slow hand with protection-spells.
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  16. #6096
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jin View Post
    Sorry to here about your tough tournament. It sounded fun. To clear things up though, the TES match up is really tough whether you have Chalice or not, so don't beat yourself up on it. Whether you mulled correctly is a tough call, but whether he had a turn 1 or turn 2 kill or answers to your Chalice/Thorn is also tough to read. There really isn't much Goblins can do unless you are packing a lot of hate. A suggestion I might add to your combo hate board (although I like Thorn as the 5th Chalice) is that playing varying types of combo hate is more important than playing a redudancy of combo hate. You are probably better off with 3x Chalice and 3x Mindbreak Trap as having to find a solution to your artifact and needing to Duress you is much harder than just needing to get rid of your Chalice. I suggest 3 of each because multiple Chalices are not strong against TES and Mindbreak Trap is better on the draw so I think a 3/3 split is good. This is only if you are playing in a heavy combo environment though.
    There isn't a ton of combo in my meta. I really only noticed 2 or 3 Storm Combo decks in the 40 person tourney. My singleton Thorn of Amethyst was just to fill a blank spot in my side. I'm not a huge fan of it because my favorite piece of combo hate has to be Chalice of the Void. I think running 5 pieces of combo hate is reasonable, but I'm not diversifying out my 4 Chalices because I love them too much.

    Why I Love Chalice-
    - It turns off 10-12 free spells that give free mana (Petal, Mox, LED) in their deck (TES, ANT, Belcher) when you play it for 0. These spells not only accelerate their mana, but also serve as important enablers for their Tutors. With Chalice at 0 they can't play an LED to sack in response to an Infernal Tutor or Burning Wish, which in turn makes those tutor cards much less efficient for their gameplan.
    - Chalice is the fastest and most resilient threat against storm combo. On the draw, any hate card can be Duressed away, whether it's Chalice or Mindbreak or Thorn. On the play Chalice can be played alongside a 1-drop T1. A T1 Chalice cannot be negated by T2 discard effects or Orim's Chant/Silence/Xantid Swarm effects. Since Storm Combo decks usually run hand disruption rather than removal, having a permanent in play against them is prefered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avatara View Post
    We have a turn 3/4 kill hand & combo hate -> Go for it... It doesn't really get any better than this
    We have a turn 3 kill hand -> Don't mull, go for it and prey that the combo player doesn't have his very best hand
    We have mediocre hand with two combo hate pieces -> Go for it... and hope that you have enough time to reach lethal damage any time soon
    We have a mediocre hand -> mulligan
    We have a mediocre hand & combo hate -> Go for it or mulligan (success almost completely depends on their hand)

    Of course it's a bit more complicated, but these are my rough guidelines.

    If you are really keen on increasing your chances vs combo without polluting your sideboard to much you could add Inquisition of Kozilek to your main board. After sideboarding you can have have eight anti combo cards. I ran that for a week or so instead of lightning bolts and it was ok. Yes it's a horrible mid-late game top deck but it takes care of so much more just little creatures. A lot of hands suddenly look a lot worse if you can remove a key. I also won a few matches simply because I could adjust my game plan early on (deciding to go all in aggro or lean back a bit and take the aggro control route). I'm not saying that this was ideal but It might be useful for some people.
    I like your summation of mulling situations vs Combo, and I agree with all but the last one. Mediocre hand+combo hate=go for it. Mulling at that point will likely draw you a hand just as mediocre and without combo hate.

    I also don't like the idea of main-deck discard. It works for Bg/w aggro-control strategies because they have better creatures than we do and can afford to run only 12-16 MD creatures. We can't. We need every creature slot we can to keep the horde moving.

  17. #6097

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by GoboLord View Post
    No, it's a Lackey, Piledriver, SGC, 2 Mountain hand.
    that's not a 3rd turn hand. Żou don't have haste. No wonder you are GoboLord, your Goblins have auto-haste...

    Quote Originally Posted by GoboLord View Post
    This isn't even an argument against combo-hate.
    First: without combo hate in your siedeboard you have "dead" cards in MD against combo (aka removal)
    Second: Cabal Therapy isn't even dedicated combo-hate. You can use it in a variety of MU where it hits obvious winconditions even without flashback (and thus without being psychic)

    In your first post on this page you wrote that TES is a tough MU. Thats only true when your sideboard doesn't contain combohate. Many comboplayers are a paranoid bunch of doomsayers. They won't take us lightly at any time of the match, just because they know that we have access to so many different combo-hate cards. As anecdotal evidence: on the Dutch Legacy champs I kept a rather fast hand (without combo hate) by confidently saying "Keep". My opp told me afterwards that he mulled to 5 to find duress or orim's chant, just because he feared combo hate. Mind game them...they always expect us to have either combo hate on our opening hand or to take mulligan to find some. That makes them keep slow hand with protection-spells.
    It isn't an argument against combo. If you read the post before, we are discussing the applications of Cabal Therapy and Chalice of the Void outside of combo. But to be clear, all of our removal (well mine, since I don't play Warren Weirding) are creatures, so I don't really have dead cards in the match up. I have slow cards. I'm not hating on Cabal Therapy, calm down.

    Well obviously I tested various combo-hate boards before I decided that the effort is useless. I wouldn't say it is a tough matchup without trying to sideboard heavily. I've tried his 4x Chalice of the Void, 1x Thorn of Amethyst set up before I decided that having it or not having it doesn't really matter. Again you are supporting my theory. Having combo hate is pointless. You just have to bluff them out and you can win. My game plan is board in some aggro cards (so far my Goblin Chieftain is all I got) and then talk about mindbreak traps when I start boarding.

    It's pretty awesome. Obviously I tell them that I never drew it afterwards so I could use it again next time. LOL



    Quote Originally Posted by jrw1985 View Post

    Why I Love Chalice-
    - It turns off 10-12 free spells that give free mana (Petal, Mox, LED) in their deck (TES, ANT, Belcher) when you play it for 0. These spells not only accelerate their mana, but also serve as important enablers for their Tutors. With Chalice at 0 they can't play an LED to sack in response to an Infernal Tutor or Burning Wish, which in turn makes those tutor cards much less efficient for their gameplan.
    - Chalice is the fastest and most resilient threat against storm combo. On the draw, any hate card can be Duressed away, whether it's Chalice or Mindbreak or Thorn. On the play Chalice can be played alongside a 1-drop T1. A T1 Chalice cannot be negated by T2 discard effects or Orim's Chant/Silence/Xantid Swarm effects. Since Storm Combo decks usually run hand disruption rather than removal, having a permanent in play against them is prefered.
    You don't have to convince me why Chalice of the Void is good. If I had to choose only 1 combo-hate to win, I'd choose Chalice, but the fact of the matter is if you hope to actually hate out combo, you must diversify your hate. I play TES, so you don't have to tell me they might Duress it away. Against inexperienced combo players, they might not Duress you after seeing that you are Goblins game 1. On game 3, if they decide to Duress you, if you have both Mindbreak Trap and Chalice, they have a difficult choice. Obviously they are going to take the Chalice, but I'm just saying. Slowing them down helps.

    Chalice of the Void is the most annoying thing to remove, but they can remove it. So why bother having 5 Chalices which they can remove when you can diversify let them have more problems. Sometimes, they are short on mana and won't Duress you on the combo turn. It happens. Double Dark Ritual Ad Nauseam only makes 5 mana. Not to mention that plays around Chalice and right into Mindbreak Trap.

    I'm not saying Chalice of the Void is bad, I'm just saying go big, or go home.

  18. #6098
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by jin View Post
    that's not a 3rd turn hand. Żou don't have haste. No wonder you are GoboLord, your Goblins have auto-haste...
    T1 Mountain, lackey
    T2 Mountain, attack with Lackey for 1, trigger SGC into play, cast Piledriver
    T3 Attack with lackey, tokens, SGC and a 11/2 Piledriver for 17 damage. Sac a token off SGC for 2 damage. 1+17+2= 20 and a T3 kill.

    Quote Originally Posted by jin View Post
    You don't have to convince me why Chalice of the Void is good. If I had to choose only 1 combo-hate to win, I'd choose Chalice, but the fact of the matter is if you hope to actually hate out combo, you must diversify your hate. I play TES, so you don't have to tell me they might Duress it away. Against inexperienced combo players, they might not Duress you after seeing that you are Goblins game 1. On game 3, if they decide to Duress you, if you have both Mindbreak Trap and Chalice, they have a difficult choice. Obviously they are going to take the Chalice, but I'm just saying. Slowing them down helps.

    Chalice of the Void is the most annoying thing to remove, but they can remove it. So why bother having 5 Chalices which they can remove when you can diversify let them have more problems. Sometimes, they are short on mana and won't Duress you on the combo turn. It happens. Double Dark Ritual Ad Nauseam only makes 5 mana. Not to mention that plays around Chalice and right into Mindbreak Trap.

    I'm not saying Chalice of the Void is bad, I'm just saying go big, or go home.
    So what's "big"? No combo hate or 6 SB slots of combo hate? As a TES player, what would you reasonably expect a SB look like to beat you?

  19. #6099
    Stomping blue decks with "dead" decks, as usual.
    Vandalize's Avatar
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    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Why are you guys so afraid of Combo? It's a hard matchup, I know, but it doesn't need 6 SB slots for it... 4 Chalice of the Void is usually enough (since it can be used in another matchups as well). If you split 3 CotV and 3 Mindbreak trap, along with 3 Pyrokinesis and 3 Kgrips or 3 Cabal Therapy, there isn't much space left for Graveyard hate, or even artifact hate... You'll rape Combo and get raped by any deck that abuses GY (aka Dredge/Aggro Loam/KotR stuff/Reanimator), or even Affinity, which is usually a good matchup. I'd give priority to popular decks... Even in a "heavy" Combo metagame, I'd only expect to see 2~3 out of 10 players, because it's an expensive and complex deck to play.

  20. #6100

    Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandalize View Post
    Why are you guys so afraid of Combo? It's a hard matchup, I know, but it doesn't need 6 SB slots for it... 4 Chalice of the Void is usually enough (since it can be used in another matchups as well). If you split 3 CotV and 3 Mindbreak trap, along with 3 Pyrokinesis and 3 Kgrips or 3 Cabal Therapy, there isn't much space left for Graveyard hate, or even artifact hate... You'll rape Combo and get raped by any deck that abuses GY (aka Dredge/Aggro Loam/KotR stuff/Reanimator), or even Affinity, which is usually a good matchup. I'd give priority to popular decks... Even in a "heavy" Combo metagame, I'd only expect to see 2~3 out of 10 players, because it's an expensive and complex deck to play.
    You are not going to "rape" combo decks with 6 sideboard cards with this deck. Literally, the only relevant maindeck cards you have are Wasteland and maybe Port (and Port is not especially effective at all). Like you said in the second part, your best hope against combo is praying not to see it in significant numbers. Banking on the control decks sending it to the lower tables and then beating up on control decks is a perfectly legitimate metagame strategy though.

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