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Thread: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

  1. #181
    Psilovibin
    Vacrix's Avatar
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Have you guys tried Lotus Bloom yet in the board? I've been using it in PSI and it works quite well, though SI plays more business. You could probably play a 3/3 split of Carpet/Bloom, cut down on the unnecessary BW board a bit, and then run some additional protection so you can ensure that your business connects.
    Luck is a residue of design.



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    Expect me or die. I play SI.

  2. #182

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Hi guys,

    Below is the list that I'm currently running, I would really appreciate your feedback or any needed changes or problems that you see. Thank you.

    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Goblin Charbelcher
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    4 Tinder Wall
    4 Manamorphose
    4 Seething Song
    4 Desperate Ritual
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Land Grant
    4 Rite of Flame
    4 Empty the Warrens
    3 Pyretic Ritual
    1 Taiga

    Some of the decisions I made such as playing a variant that doesn't use LED, I made out of budget concerns.

  3. #183

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Has anyone tried sideboarding in blood moon/magus of the moon? I saw someone doing well with that strategy at GPDC. He had resolved an early magus against the eventual winner Owen Turtenwald (zero basics), but still lost after Owen Forced two charbelchers and then hardcast Batterskull off five nonbasics. Still, it seemed like a viable strategy.

  4. #184

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by topef27 View Post
    Has anyone tried sideboarding in blood moon/magus of the moon? I saw someone doing well with that strategy at GPDC. He had resolved an early magus against the eventual winner Owen Turtenwald (zero basics), but still lost after Owen Forced two charbelchers and then hardcast Batterskull off five nonbasics. Still, it seemed like a viable strategy.
    I sat near this guy a couple times at GPDC and it looked sweet. I know he was definitely bringing in 8 moons but I don't know his entire list/board, or what he sides out for the moons.

  5. #185
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by f7eleven View Post
    I sat near this guy a couple times at GPDC and it looked sweet. I know he was definitely bringing in 8 moons but I don't know his entire list/board, or what he sides out for the moons.
    This feels like a pretty neat idea. I'm definitely interested if anyone has more information about this list.

  6. #186

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    This is the list im testing right now and goes great in goldfishing.


    4 Goblin Charbelcher
    4 Burning Wish
    3 Empty the Warrens
    4 Tinder Wall
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Pyretic Ritual
    4 Desperate Ritual
    4 Seething Song
    4 Lotus Petal
    3 Manamorphose
    1 Grim Monolith
    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Land Grant
    1 Taiga
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Rite of Flame
    SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
    SB: 4 Xantid Swarm
    SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
    SB: 1 Infernal Tutor
    SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
    SB: 1 Goblin War Strike
    SB: 1 Grapeshot
    SB: 1 Reverent Silence
    SB: 1 Shattering Spree

    I made some statics about the turn this going off and if it's via belcher or warrens. If you're interested i'll share it.
    If you have any question or comment you are welcomed!

    GC.

  7. #187

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by f7eleven View Post
    I sat near this guy a couple times at GPDC and it looked sweet. I know he was definitely bringing in 8 moons but I don't know his entire list/board, or what he sides out for the moons.
    Yes, this is actually a rather old strategy for Belcher that was discussed in the last thread or the thread before last, and it's a completely viable approach vs decks like BUG that play no basics and SB answers to Empty the Warrens. Essentially, the idea is to board in 8 Moons on the play and cast a Moon before the opponent has the opportunity to play a Fetchland for an Island and you'll side out Burning Wish/Lions Eye Diamond for the 4th Empty the Warrens, 7 Moons and then find something else to take out for the 8th Moon.

    I waver on wether or not it's a better plans than Chancellor of the Annex vs UBW type control decks, I think it expressly depends on whether or not they can accelerate into Engineered Plague quick enough. It's also some what lacking vs UWR or RUG control decks where Lightning Bolt answers Magus of the Moon and Rough/Tumble answers both Magus of the Moon and Empty the Warrens.

  8. #188
    Member
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    2013. A look at the numbers, trends, etc:

    Compared to 2012, Belcher has been on the decline in it's showings this year. The wishless trend seems to have died off, showing only 1 list that is wishless in the 2013 decks. Also somehow, 7 out of 10 of the top 16 Belcher decks at Starcitygames this year, were all in Ohio, the other 3 being Atlanta, Edison, & Las Vegas. Also, 4 of the 10 top 16 placings, were top 8 finishes. The deck itself? It has largely remained the same, mana & ritual effects, along with Burning Wish / Empty the Warrens / Goblin Charbelcher & some wish targets in the sideboard.

    As for 2014, the deck's not going anywhere, someone will always be playing it somewhere. Best of luck to those that do, for the deck that attempts to fulfill that long standing question to newer players "Can I make a deck that kills on turn 1?" With Belcher, the answer is yes, or at least to combo on turn 1 consistently enough.
    Primary legacy deck High Tide primer

  9. #189

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Hi guys !

    First of all i want to wish happy new year to every body =)

    Pages ago, we were speaking about simulating with computer Belcher's deck. I did one simulator and worked on it until end of november.

    Then I made a "report" : here is the link Click me !!!

    In this report, you can find data analysis & statistics about our deck. Feel free to discuss and give me feebacks. I'm not a native speaker so my english might be bad.

    I think it's the first time that a study like that has been made.
    I hope you'll enjoy it.
    I also may share sources (java programm)... I'm pretty sure they "sux" in term of quality of conception despite I got a maths & IT MSc...

    Enjoy',
    Trall :)

  10. #190
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    I played in a small Legacy tournament at my LGS, and I decided to sleeve up my old Charbelcher deck. After reading through this thread, I decided on the following:

    Lands
    1 Taiga

    Creatures
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    4 Tinder Wall

    Spells
    3 Chrome Mox
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Rite of Flame
    4 Desperate Ritual
    4 Land Grant
    4 Burning Wish
    2 Empty the Warrens
    4 Goblin Charbelcher
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Seething Song
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Pyretic Ritual
    2 Grim Monolith

    Sideboard
    1 Empty the Warrens
    1 Pyroclasm
    1 Reverent Silence
    1 Shattering Spree
    1 Trash for Treasure
    1 Forest
    2 Sylvan Library
    3 Carpet of Flowers
    4 Xantid Swarm

    R1: An uneven number of participants meant a bye, and I got it. OK, whatever.

    R2 vs Pox. Wow, I dodged Counterspells! Oh, wait, lots of discard. Ok, I just need to win the die roll - nope. And G1 I mulligan to 5. And he cast Hymn to Tourach on T2 and T3. And he then cast Liliana of the Veil, ticked her up to 7, and then ultimated it. And I Belched and won that game! How? After he decimated my hand with the Hymns, he had no pressure (typical of Pox). After a couple of turns, and he cast Liliana, I knew I wasn't going to win by storming lots of Goblins, so I dumped the remaining cards I had been able to hold onto the table -- Lotus Petal x2, Grim Monolith, and Lion's Eye Diamond, and hoped for a Belcher. He found a Nether Spirit and started nudging my life down while ticking Liliana up. When he ultimated Liliana, he decided to group the Petals with LED in one pile and the Grim Monolith in the other pile, so I took the LED and Petals. His Nether Spirit got me down to 1 life when I finally drew the Belcher, used the one other card in my hand, Rite of Flame (there was another in the yard), with the Petals to cast it, and LED powered it for the win! G2 he cast Unmask, Dark Ritual, Inquisition of Kozilek, and Hymn to Tourach on T1 (!), cast Pithing Needle on Goblin Charbelcher on T2, and Liliana on T3 -- I went ahead and scooped when he then cast Nether Spirit. G3 I Belched on T1 for the win. (1-0)

    R3 vs Burn. I don't think I can lose this matchup unless crazy things happen. G1 on the play I mulled again to 5, and kept a hand with no win condition but lots of mana. She beat me down to 7 in 3 turns with Goblin Guide and burn, but when her GG revealed Goblin Charbelcher on the top of my deck and I survived the turn, I smiled. And won. G2 I had the T1 win with Belcher. (2-0)

    R4 vs American Delver. Ah, finally a blue deck. G1 I'm on the draw and we both mulligan to 6. His only counterspell was Daze, and I had an ESG to pay and made 12 Goblins on T1, so he scooped. G2 I cast a T1 Gitaxian Probe, and saw 2 Force of WIlls, a Daze, and a couple of blue cards. I never resolved anything of importance. G3 he mulled to 5, obviously looking for a FOW. I cast T1 Xanthid Swarm to see if he would use virtually his whole hand to keep it out. It resolved, but next turn he cast Swords to Plowshares on it - ouch. I then ETW for only 8 goblins, as I expected them to do some good with his depleted hand. He countered one of the storm copies, so I only got 6 goblins. He then cast Meddling Mage naming LED, and after I attacked a few times (losing a goblin to the Mage each time) he was at 7 and I had 3 goblins left. They stared at each other a few turns, while he cast a Delver which flipped immediately. I tried another Xanthid Swarm and he again cast StP on it. My life total was going 20-17-14-11-8-5. I finally resolved a Carpet of Flowers, and when he then tried to counter a few rituals to keep me off ETW mana, the Carpet powered a big ETW and I made 12 goblins to let me win on 2 life (he had no Bolt, whew). (3-0)

    Top 4 vs Merfolk. G1 I mulled to 6, had a T1 Belcher on the draw and went for it, but FOW stopped me cold and his fish killed me quick. G2 a T1 Xanthid Swarm put my opponent to a hard question -- use his only counter immediately, or never be able to counter again? He decided to let it resolve, and the Swarm let me resolve a Belcher on T3 and activate him on T4. G3 I mulled to 6, kept Gitaxian Probe, Land Grant x 2, Xanthid Swarm, Chrome Mox, Goblin Charbelcher -- very iffy, but the Swarm was great for me in G2, and I had the Belcher in hand, so I went with it. My Probe on T1 revealed only one counter, a Daze, in his hand (and drew me a Burning Wish), so I cast Land Grant and when I revealed my hand he saw he couldn't counter both of them. He mistakenly let the first resolve so I had Daze protection when the second one was imprinted on the Mox, and he also couldn't Daze the Swarm which I then cast. He did cast Pithing Needle on Belcher, but the Swarm let me Wish without fear for Shattering Spree, and then over the next few turns I built up a few mana producers, cast Belcher, and won when he had lethal on the board. (4-0)

    In the finals (vs a 12-post artifact deck), we decided to split.

    This version, with 10 win conditions and only 4 cantrips, seemed to work out pretty well. I liked the extra accelerators in Grim Monolith, and even without Manamorphose I never had any real mana color issues. I did mulligan to 6 three times and mulled to 5 twice in 11 total games, but I never felt that having fewer cantrips hindered me. Since I was running 5 artifacts that generally stayed around, I decided to run Trash for Treasure in my wishboard, but it never came up. I think I would consider playing Infernal Tutor in that slot, but then the Manamorphose might be better.

  11. #191

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Hey Guys, I just now noticed that a Belcher deck has made Top 16 at SCGO Orlando on 12/1/2014!

    For reference, here's the link to his decklist:

    http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=62558

    It is pretty ballsy that he decided to eschew Gitaxian Probe, alltough I guess it does give you more mana with Moxen. In the SB, Bribery is a card I've never seen or thought about in Legacy, but it seems sweet as another way to win against Sneak and Show or Reanimator if you have a Wish in hand.

    On a related note, what are everyones thoughts on Diminishing Returns? I can get behind every other card in the SB, but this makes me scratch my head...

  12. #192

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondSunrise View Post
    Hey Guys, I just now noticed that a Belcher deck has made Top 16 at SCGO Orlando on 12/1/2014!

    For reference, here's the link to his decklist:

    http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=62558

    It is pretty ballsy that he decided to eschew Gitaxian Probe, alltough I guess it does give you more mana with Moxen. In the SB, Bribery is a card I've never seen or thought about in Legacy, but it seems sweet as another way to win against Sneak and Show or Reanimator if you have a Wish in hand.

    On a related note, what are everyones thoughts on Diminishing Returns? I can get behind every other card in the SB, but this makes me scratch my head...
    Diminishing Returns is awesome. I remember seeing a really skilled belcher player on an SCG stream a year ago and he used it very effectively. I think he he wasn't able to make enough goblins to go through his opponents creatures. He needed more storm or a belcher. He got there!

  13. #193

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by SecondSunrise View Post
    Hey Guys, I just now noticed that a Belcher deck has made Top 16 at SCGO Orlando on 12/1/2014!

    For reference, here's the link to his decklist:

    http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=62558

    It is pretty ballsy that he decided to eschew Gitaxian Probe, alltough I guess it does give you more mana with Moxen. In the SB, Bribery is a card I've never seen or thought about in Legacy, but it seems sweet as another way to win against Sneak and Show or Reanimator if you have a Wish in hand.

    On a related note, what are everyones thoughts on Diminishing Returns? I can get behind every other card in the SB, but this makes me scratch my head...
    Peoples be stealing my tech yo'

    That aside Diminishing Returns is a pretty necessary card if you're going to play Belcher as a deck in tournaments as opposed to a gold fishing experiment on MTGO, you need another threat for Burning Wish in those situations where you've been stopped, LED is on the table and you're in top deck mode vs something like Jund that stripped you of your Belcher and too many turns can go by for goblins to get there.

    Bribery is pretty obvious, because Griselbrand doesn't give a shit about your T3 clock and good luck spinning the wheel on a Draw 7 vs a deck with Force of Will and going off twice.

  14. #194
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by Trall View Post
    Hi guys !

    First of all i want to wish happy new year to every body =)

    Pages ago, we were speaking about simulating with computer Belcher's deck. I did one simulator and worked on it until end of november.

    Then I made a "report" : here is the link Click me !!!

    In this report, you can find data analysis & statistics about our deck. Feel free to discuss and give me feebacks. I'm not a native speaker so my english might be bad.

    I think it's the first time that a study like that has been made.
    I hope you'll enjoy it.
    I also may share sources (java programm)... I'm pretty sure they "sux" in term of quality of conception despite I got a maths & IT MSc...

    Enjoy',
    Trall :)

    This is really incredible! Nice work, man.

  15. #195
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    Greensday

    Anyone think this might do better in the current meta full of -1/-1 effects?


    //precursor mana: 20
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Simian Spirit Guide

    //cantrips: 12
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Street Wraith
    4 Manamorphose

    //further accel: 16
    4 Rite of Flame
    4 Pyretic Ritual
    4 Desperate Ritual
    4 Seething Song

    //Win: 12
    4 Goblin Charbelcher
    4 Burning Wish
    3 Recross the Paths
    1 Meditate

    //Sideboard: 15
    Recross the Paths
    Infernal Contract
    Tendrils of Agony
    Grapeshot
    Flame Slash
    Hull Breach
    Cave-In
    Pyroclasm
    Empty the Warrens
    Nature's Claim
    Shattering Spree
    Past in Flames
    Storm Entity
    Pyroblast
    Duress


    Who needs to play Goblin tokens?

    You guys have probably seen this version of Belcher before, but for those who haven't, here's an introduction.

    Recross the Paths lets you stack your deck however you want if you have 0 lands. Basically, it's uber-Doomsday. Instead of 11 ways to combo out, you now have 11 ways to Charbelch. Forget making 1/1 tokens that can be killed. Forget passing the turn. You just win now.

    Advantages of Recrossing:
    -less passing the turn
    -doesn't lose to creature hate
    -fewer "fizzle hands" (no multiple land grants; no multiple spirit guides + EtW FTL; can use Chrome Mox without imprinting a critical mana source; not wrecked by Stifle as explained below)
    -0 lands: Belcher never misses
    -better use of sideboard cards: you can set up 1-ofs postboard without needing to wish into them. you can also support non-sorcery answers.

    NOTE: You don't have to win with Recross. You can just win with the usual Belcher hand, and you can still Wish into Empty the Warrens if you want. But I'm only going to discuss the Recross paths to victory here since the others should already be well known.

    Like Doomsday, you want to resolve Recross the Paths with mana floating and cantrips in hand. The exact pile you set up depends on the cantrips you have and the extra mana, if any.

    BASIC BELCH KILL PILE:
    ----top of library----
    *Street Wraith (only if you need to win clash to get Recross back, for imprinting on Chrome Mox or w/e)
    *Setup1 (remaining mana needed to cast Meditate: LED, Manamorphose or Lotus Petal usually)
    Meditate
    LED
    LED
    Setup2 (usually an SSG/ESG/Petal/LED, but if you have extra mana floating this can be a hate-removal card like Cave-In or whatever)
    Street Wraith
    Goblin Charbelcher
    *LED (if you expect Stifle, no harm in a back-up LED to Belch again next turn. also good if opponent Spell Pierces/Dazes Belcher and you run out of mana)
    ----bottom of library----

    Each * represents an optional slot.

    Easy guide to setup 1:
    If you have 3 mana floating and 1 cantrip, setup1 = Manamorphose
    If you have 0 mana floating and 2 cantrips, setup1 = LED
    If you have 2 mana floating and 2 cantrips, setup1 = Street Wraith + Chrome Mox (better to save LEDs for other parts of the chain)
    If you have 1 mana floating and Rite of Flame in GY and 2 cantrips, setup1 = Rite of Flame + Manamorphose

    If you have less, you probably can't go off this turn and should set up a pass-the-turn pile (Wraith + LED on top of Meditate)

    Here's how some of the piles would play out.

    Example 1: you have 0 mana floating and 2 cantrips in hand after resolving Recross:
    LED
    Meditate
    LED
    LED
    Lotus Petal
    Street Wraith
    Charbelcher

    You cantrip once. Drop LED. Cantrip again, popping LED in response for UUU. Draw and cast Meditate. Drop LEDs and Petal. Cycle Wraith, popping for 7 mana in response. Draw and activate Charbelcher. If you only had 1 cantrip in hand instead of 2, you can make this a "pass the turn" pile.

    Example 2: you have RR floating, Chrome Mox in hand and only 1 cantrip
    Street Wraith
    Manamorphose
    Meditate
    LED
    LED
    Lotus Petal
    Street Wraith
    Charbelcher

    You win the clash off Recross (usually). Drop Chrome Mox, imprinting Recross, GRR in pool. Use cantrip to draw Street Wraith. Street Wraith to draw Manamorphose. Manamorphose to convert your mana into URR. Cast Meditate. Etc. Win.


    Example 3: you have 2 mana floating, only 1 cantrip, and Meditate stuck in hand
    Manamorphose
    Rite of Flame
    LED
    LED
    Lotus Petal
    Street Wraith
    Charbelcher

    Cantrip into Manamorphose, making UR and drawing Rite of Flame. Rite of Flame up to at least URR. Cast Meditate FTW.

    Contrary to what Griffin Hansen said, you don't auto-lose with Meditate in hand. You just can't use the LED+2cantrip set-ups.



    If you have fewer resources, you can still set up a kill in a few turns as a Hail Mary. Passing the turn 2 times and Belching immediately may actually not be worse than casting Empty the Warrens for 8-12 this turn.

    Example 4: you have 0 mana floating and no cantrips
    LED
    Gitaxian Probe
    Meditate
    LED
    LED
    SSG
    Street Wraith
    Charbelcher

    This involves passing the turn twice. But then, when you have LED and Probe, you can cantrip into Meditate, cast Meditate, and Charbelch FTW. This shows you can still set up a 2-turn win even with 0 resources post-Recross, making mulligans to 5-6 and playing through Daze not auto-losses. Keep in mind EtW takes at least 2 attacks to win so this "bad case" is not any slower. Also, with even one cantrip you only have to pass the turn once.


    Example 5: you have 0 mana floating and 1 Street Wraith. opponent has Thalia and Ethersworn Canonist but no other clock.
    SSG
    Seething Song
    Cave-In
    LED
    Gitaxian Probe
    Meditate
    LED
    LED
    ESG
    Street Wraith
    Charbelcher

    You pass the turn and take 4. Draw SSG. Take 4. Draw Seething Song. Street Wraith into Cave-In, pitch Seething Song and use SSG to cast Cave-In to kill the hatebears and any other dorks. Pass the turn. LED. Pass the turn. Probe into Meditate FTW. Yeah, yeah, it takes 4 turns. But it beats just losing to double storm hate.



    If opponent drops Needles or Revokers or has some other kind of protection from Belcher, you CAN set up convoluted piles with extra mana and extra card draw and Burning Wishes to find answers, but it's easier to just Tendrils them instead.

    BASIC TENDRILS PILE
    ----top of pile----
    *Street Wraith
    *Setup1
    Meditate
    LED
    LED
    Flex Slot
    Gitaxian Probe
    Manamorphose
    Manamorphose
    Manamorphose
    Burning Wish
    ----bottom of pile----

    Top two cards are as discussed earlier to set up Meditate. Crack LEDs for RRRGGG, Probe to see opponent's grip to ensure the coast is clear, cantrip to build storm count, converting to have at least 2 black mana, and then Tendrils with storm 10+. Note that Wish for Tendrils only takes 6 mana (2 LEDs) instead of the 7 for Belcher, so you have a flex slot for either more mana (to play around spell pierce/daze) or for an anti-hate card if you have the resources floating to cast it.


    If you need to Tendrils through Leyline or some other hate, you can make this pile:
    ----top of pile----
    *Street Wraith
    *Setup1
    Meditate
    LED
    LED
    LED
    Gitaxian Probe
    Burning Wish
    LED
    Lotus Petal
    answer card
    Manamorphose
    Manamorphose
    Manamorphose
    Manamorphose
    Burning Wish
    ----bottom of pile----

    Meditate into triple LED for RRRGGGBBB. Probe into Wish into Infernal Contract, drawing four with RRGG floating. Lotus Petal. Cast your answer card (Pyroclasm, Nature's Claim, Wish into something, whatever). LED for BBB, cantrip to build storm, Tendrils for 15+ storm.


    If you need to kill a Leyline AND win around Gaddock Teeg, the last pile works too, but Grapeshot might be easier.
    BASIC GRAPESHOT PILE
    ----top of pile----
    *Street Wraith
    *Setup1
    Meditate
    LED
    LED
    LED
    Gitaxian Probe
    Gitaxian Probe
    Gitaxian Probe
    Burning Wish --> Infernal Contract
    Seething Song
    Seething Song
    Manamorphose
    Burning Wish -> Hull Breach
    Manamorphose
    Manamorphose
    *Gitaxian Probe/Manamorphose
    Burning Wish -> Grapeshot
    ----bottom of pile----

    Make RRRGGGBBB with LEDs. After Infernal Contract, you have RRGG left. Double Seething Song up to RRRRRRRG, Wish into Hull Breach with RRRR left, cantrip some more, then Wish into Grapeshot for 20.


    If opponent has Needle/Revoker on LED or Null Rod or a Deed/EE@0 or some other artifact hate to stop you from using triple LED, you can do this:

    RITE OF FLAME PILE -- Needs +1 initial mana or 1 Rite of Flame already in graveyard
    ----top of pile----
    *Street Wraith
    *Setup1
    Meditate
    Rite of Flame/SSG
    Rite of Flame
    Rite of Flame
    Goblin Charbelcher (or 4 Manamorphose + Burning Wish + Tendrils)
    ----bottom of pile----

    Triple Rite of Flame = 7 red mana, the magic number. You just need an additional 1 red precursor mana. If you already cast 1 Rite of Flame before Recross the Paths, you don't need the extra mana -- you can just use an SSG to get started, your 2 Rites will conveniently net +5 mana up to 6, and then you can pick the Tendrils win. Also a nice way to beat Null Rod.


    Finally, I will post one pile of hilarity (Requiring slightly different deck configuration -- 1 Faithless Looting in SB and boarded in):

    The LOLpile:
    ----top of pile----
    *Street Wraith
    *Setup1
    Meditate
    LED
    LED
    LED
    Gitaxian Probe
    Burning Wish -> Infernal Contract
    Seething Song
    LED
    Faithless Looting
    Rite of Flame
    Rite of Flame
    Rite of Flame
    Rite of Flame
    Manamorphose
    Manamorphose
    Manamorphose
    Manamorphose
    Past in Flames
    Seething Song
    Seething Song
    Seething Song
    Desperate Ritual
    Desperate Ritual
    Desperate Ritual
    Desperate Ritual
    Burning Wish --> Answer card 1
    Burning Wish --> Answer card 2
    Answer card 3
    Answer card 4
    Lotus Petal
    Burning Wish
    ----bottom of pile----

    Alright, what in the hell's name is this monstrosity? First thing's first: close the blinds, because this is some hardcore masturbating.
    Meditate as usual, stack Probe and crack the LEDs for RRRGGGBBB.
    Wish into Infernal Contract and draw 4.
    Cast Seething Song up to RRRRRG.
    Faithless Looting, discarding 2 Rite of Flame.
    Flashback Faithless Looting discarding 2 Rite of Flame, with RG left.
    Manamorphose and crack LED for RRR (plus RR when Manamorphose resolves).
    Manamorphose some more.
    Draw into Past in Flames and cast it with R floating.
    Quad Rite of Flame and Seething Song up to 13 red mana.
    Manamorphose 4 times to draw 4 cards and filter your mana into whatever colors you want (making sure to create at least BBBBU).
    Cast the 3 Seething Songs up to 19 mana.
    Cast Meditate to draw 4, down to 16 mana.
    Cast Infernal Contact to draw 4, down to 13 mana.
    Cast quadruple Desperate Ritual, Splicing onto Arcane as much as possible. That should bring you to 23 mana if done correctly.
    Burning Wish for Pyroclasm to kill all hatebears. (19 mana)
    Burning Wish for Hull Breach or Shattering Spree to kill a bunch of hate permanents. (13-15 mana)
    Cast 2 more kill spells for the hell of it. (10+ mana)
    Flashback Past in Flames. (5+ mana)
    Flashback triple Seething Song and Quad Desperate Ritual for +10 mana. (15+ mana)
    Flashback some more kill spells. (5+ mana)
    Lotus Petal and pop for B.
    Flashback Probe into Burning Wish.
    Tendrils/Grapeshot with storm 57+

    You probably never need that pile ever. But if you want to kill a whole crapload of random protection and 5 players at once, who's to stop you?

    If anyone can pull that off on video at a tournament, you get my mad props 4 LIFE.
    Last edited by FTW; 01-27-2014 at 03:28 AM.

  16. #196
    jungle lion, good?...
    paeng4983's Avatar
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    @Feline
    Can you please include the information above from FTW in your primer page.
    Its a nice contribution for this thread.

    Thank you.
    TJB

    http://deartiyopaeng.blogspot.com/ <---- (updated) MTG related blog. ^_^

    TES: 102nd out of 2000 players at GP Kyoto 2015 (Legacy)

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  17. #197
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    I am leaving for Baltimore shortly for the Sunday portion, though I usually check messages here daily / etc. Saw a notification about here and read the "recross the paths" belcher noted above, I know Griffen Hansen did a version with recross the paths last year, there's even an article & tournament report about it in the primer, but his version still ran Empty the Warrens I believe.

    To the list above, that's an even more recross the paths focused version. I am going to implement that into the primer in a recross the paths section, but I won't be able to do much more as I'm leaving literally today. Luckily however, it looks like you've done a lot of the work for me explaining everything, so if it's alright I'm going to just copy & past it as is. Thank you FTW, just reading that makes me want to play belcher again and try that out, I'm certain with enough attention someone will now, I've always liked Spanish Inquisition because if had a higher turn 1 kill, but to implement a higher turn 1 kill % into belcher which is a more consistent combo deck, as well as having the success in the past to back it up (in the finals twice, but no trophy, yet) it's just overall awesome!

    -edit- for the record, I got snowed in in Cleveland, no Baltimore this time around, so watched from home and did more alters.
    Last edited by feline; 01-27-2014 at 04:45 PM.
    Primary legacy deck High Tide primer

  18. #198
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Thanks Feline! I love to see players doing well with Belcher. You've written a fantastic primer here and I'm glad to be able to contribute to it, even with just a fringe strategy.

    I noticed a few errors in my post so I cleaned it up a bit, explained Setup1 more clearly, and added some alternate piles.

  19. #199

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    i don't play belcher, nor do i plan on playing belcher, but i just had to come say that that post by FTW was some seriously epic shit.

  20. #200
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by Trall View Post
    Hi guys !

    First of all i want to wish happy new year to every body =)

    Pages ago, we were speaking about simulating with computer Belcher's deck. I did one simulator and worked on it until end of november.

    Then I made a "report" : here is the link Click me !!!

    In this report, you can find data analysis & statistics about our deck. Feel free to discuss and give me feebacks. I'm not a native speaker so my english might be bad.

    I think it's the first time that a study like that has been made.
    I hope you'll enjoy it.
    I also may share sources (java programm)... I'm pretty sure they "sux" in term of quality of conception despite I got a maths & IT MSc...

    Enjoy',
    Trall :)
    Thanks for your work! It was a good read. I will definitely test out your suggestions. I will propably doing something like this:

    Lands
    1 Taiga

    Creatures
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    4 Tinder Wall

    Spells
    2 Chrome Mox
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Rite of Flame
    4 Desperate Ritual
    4 Land Grant
    4 Burning Wish
    2 Empty the Warrens
    4 Goblin Charbelcher
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Seething Song
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    3 Pyretic Ritual
    4 Manamorphose

    Sideboard
    1 Empty the Warrens
    1 Goblin War Strike
    1 Diminishing Returns
    1 Infernal Tutor
    1 Pyroclasm
    1 Reverent Silence
    1 Shattering Spree
    4 Pyroblast
    4 Xantid Swarm

    I am not sure about the win condition split. 4 Charbelchers are set for sure but what are the benefits of 4 wishes and 2 empties vs 3 of both. Empty the Warrens works better to battle counters though most lists I see go with 4 wishes. Is it because of more storm or better accessibility to the sideboard?

    I am also not sure if 2 Chrome Mox is too low...but I don't know whatelse to cut.

    Any opinions on these points?

    Enjoy the weekend.

    Greetings Chris
    Last edited by Mindlash; 02-08-2014 at 03:02 AM.
    "I came into this world covered in someone else's blood and screaming, I'd like to leave it the same way."

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