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Thread: [Deck] Vial Goblins

  1. #161
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    GP Louisville - Report

    Hello everyone! As I mentioned I'd be writing my report at some point this week, and I apologize for the delay. Work kept me too tired to write it up until now.

    I went into this event with two weeks notification as a Christmas gift from the family, so as much as I was grateful I also was improperly prepared. I never managed to nail out the final pieces of my deck list and ended up going with what I was most comfortable with.

    The list I ended up taking:

    MB
    4 Wasteland
    4 Rishadan Port
    4 Cavern of Souls
    3 Mountain
    1 Taiga
    1 Plateau
    3 Wooded Foothills
    3 Bloodstained Mire
    4 AEther Vial
    4 Goblin Lackey
    1 Skirk Prospector
    4 Goblin Piledriver
    2 Mogg War Marshal
    1 Tin Street Hooligan
    1 Stingscourger
    4 Goblin Matron
    4 Goblin Warchief
    1 Goblin Sharpshooter
    4 Goblin Ringleader
    1 Krenko, Mob Boss
    2 Gempalm Incinerator
    2 Tarfire
    2 Pyrokinesis
    SB
    3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    2 Relic of Progenitus
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Containment Priest
    2 Pithing Needle
    1 Wear // Tear
    1 Krenko, Mob Boss
    1 Pyrokinesis
    1 Tin Street Hooligan

    I still hadn't figured out a few things.

    Firstly I wanted my Pyrokinesis's in the board. It's not that the card is a bad maindeck card, it's that I want access to 8 or 9 straight kill spells post board against Infect and Elves. That came back to hurt me in the event itself.

    Secondly I didn't have enough time to figure out where to fit Blood Moon into my board. My small amount of testing I did get done told me that the 2nd Krenko in the board was sufficient in handling decks that Blood Moon usually shines in, but that's not especially optimum. I eventually kept it the way it was due to the fear of Reanimator that everyone seems to have. I left those Surgical Extractions in at this time. In retrospect, I think I was playing scared and didn't truly need them. A second Stingscourger plus my normal game plan would have helped me far more for less SB slots.

    Thirdly I wanted some form of Storm Hate, be it Mindbreak Trap, Grafdigger's Cage, or whatever, but as the deck is only 4% of the meta I ended up deciding that I could throw that match if it came down to me not finding space.

    Disaster struck about 3 days before the event. I caught the Flu. I was feeling good enough to leave for the event, but I was not exactly in the best mindset.

    The day before the event.
    We had arrived a day early and had time to play for some buys. I did not win any on that day, but I did play against some fun stuff. I played against Jund, ANT, Infect, Food Chain, Big Red (Mono Red Sneak Attack), Esper Stoneblade, Eldrazi, and Shardless. I got lucky agains Storm and had an amazing match against Shardless, but ultimatley this little side adventure should have told me that Blood Moon was a priority. It was good against 6 of my 8 opponents. I read that info but did not act upon it. I even remember talking to some car-mates about it. I blame my sickness for incomplete critical thinking, and I blame me for not keeping my body in good enough shape.

    GP Matches

    Match 1 - Ethan on Oops All Spells
    Game 1
    My opponent won the die roll and chose to be on the draw. I kept a hand that could clock in 4 turns and had a Tarfire thinking I was against Manaless. This should have in theory let me race and plausibly break bridges by shocking my own Goblin Lackey if need be.

    He led the game with Gitaxian Probe, Gitaxian Probe, Street Wraith and passed turn. Something's up. This isn't a typical line or keep from a dredge player. I jam my Lackey and just kind of beat him up while he does literally nothing.

    Sideboarding
    +3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +2 Relic of Progenitus, +2 Surgical Extraction, +2 Containment Priest, +1 Pyrokinesis
    -3 Goblin Ringleader, -2 Tarfire, -2 Mogg War Marshal, -1 Goblin Pileddriver, -1 ?

    I hedged here, I wasn't entirely convinced he was on Manaless and boarded as if he were one of the other fast decks that wasn't literally Belcher, while still maxing out my Grave Hate. I don't remember the last card I boarded out, my notes even show "-1 ?" sitting there. I might have run with 61 at that point. Go me.

    Game 2
    My opponent chooses Play and goes off on turn 1 revealing that he is truly on Oops all spells.

    Game 3
    This is very similar to game 1, but it's two Street Wraith and 1 Gitaxian Probe. I just kind of beat him up.

    Summary
    He was on a budget build without LEDs. He lost to his own inconsistency both games, with Thalia helping along game 3.

    Match 2 - Alan on Infect
    Game 1
    I win the die roll, mulligan, and play an AEther Vial. He responds by simply putting down a fetch and passing. I tick the Vial and play a Goblin Piledriver. His turn comes up and he cracks the fetch, lays a second Tropical Island and jams Blighted Agent. I die on the following turn to Invigorate + Berserk. I hate losing in this fashion. I had the ground clogged up and Wasteland in hand. I had all of my avenues covered but the scariest, hardest to interact one.

    Sideboarding
    +3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +1 Pyrokinesis, +1 Tin Street Hooligan
    -3 Goblin Ringleader, -1 Stingscourger, -1 Krenko, Mob Boss
    I think I messed this up, more proof I wasn't playing properly all day. I didn't board in my Pithing Needles due to old habits that didn't change. In lists I have with 9 kill spells post board I don't think it's required, and I got used to that. Additionally I boarded out Stingscourger, which is interaction in this match-up. Don't do Influenza kids.

    Game 2
    On the play I have AEther Vial, Rishadan Port, and Pyrokinsis. I win this game in an expected fashion.

    Game 3
    I mulligan twice to a mediocre 5, but it, like my first hand, can beat anything but Blighted Agent into Invigorate + Berserk. I lose to that on turn 4.

    Summary
    In addition the poor sideboarding I also sequenced pretty poorly in these games. Didn't play around Daze, and noticed it directly afterwords, fetched at strange times, etc. At this point I was pretty mad at myself due to a few factors. I had a pretty bad Headache that started that morning. I could see myself making mistakes directly after making them, which is the fastest way to make myself tilt. I feel like I was playing as if I had only been playing Legacy for a Year. I think I would have lost that match anyway looking back, but I could have played it better. I took another 250MG of Acetaminophen and moved on.

    Match 3 - Tom on Sneak & Show slight hybrid
    Game 1
    He wins the die roll and we both keep our 7. Tom Scalding Tarns into an Island, and Preordains both cards down and passes. I play a fetch and pass. Tom Preordains again and bottoms both, and passes without laying a land. I start to use Rishadan Port on his upkeep. He doesn't lay another land for quite some time, and at some point in this game he discarded an Omniscience to hand size. He then mentions out loud that "If I hadn't discarded my only out I think I could do this." This leads me to believe he only has 1 Omniscience. He never finds a second land until the turn before he dies. He reveals 3 Ponders in his hand with a sad smile and moves to board.

    Sideboarding
    I assume he's on Sneak and Show with 1 Omniscience as another win con to fight through D&T.
    +3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +2Containment Priest, +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Wear // Tear , +1 Tin Street Hooligan
    -3 Goblin Ringleader, -2 Pyrokinesis, -2 Tarfire, -1 Gempalm Incinerator, -1 Goblin Sharpshooter,

    Game 2
    We play a typical game of Show & Tell into Stingscourger, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben to lock it and win.

    Summary
    I feel good about this match-up, especially the hybrid version he attempted to play with. It was just Sneak & Show but with some Cunning Wishes. Since he did not commit to either plan I as not as worried the entire match. Kozilek's Return costs 6 between the tutor and itself, where as a naturally drawn Pyroclasm hurts way more.

    Match 4 - Gary on Elves
    Game 1
    He wins the die roll, we both mulligan and bottom our cards. He jams 2 Nettle Sentinal and I surprise him with a Pyrokinesis from a board of 2 Rishadan Ports, and AEther Vial. Unfortunately the game drags on long enough for him to recover and I die with a Tarfire in hand due to never having red mana. It happens.

    Sideboarding
    +2 Containment Priest, +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Pyrokinesis
    -2 Goblin Pildriver, -2 Mogg War Marshal, -1 Stingscourger
    Here is me being used to my old build with more kill spells again. I can't cut Stingscourger in this match with this few kill spells, and I improperly board out all of my Mogg War Marshal, which can shut off my Gempalm Incinerators.

    Game 2
    I mulligan to an lower end 6 with 4 lands (1 Rishadan Port, Wasteland), with Goblin Piledriver and Pyrokinesis, scrying an AEther Vial up top. He just kind of plays Gerruk Relentless and I am powerless to stop it. I prevent him from going off, but ultimatley the sub-par hand mixed with my poor draws got me dead. I'm not entirely sure if this keep was correct. It was a lower end 6, but surely that's better than a random 5. I actually put this loss on drawing 4 lands in my 7 draw steps that game, helped along with my topping of AEther Vial. I actually died to Garruk Relentless's ultimate.

    Summary
    Elves is a fine match-up, but I really am missing those extra kill spells today.

    Additionally my Headache has not gotten better, and I probably should have dropped at this point as I got a cold chill, meaning my Fever came back. Being stupid me, I kept going with a liter of Green Tea.

    Match 5 - Damon on Elves
    Game 1
    I keep a good 7 and he wins the die roll. I lost on turn 4 to a Craterhoof Behemoth through my Pyrokinesis and Tarfire. I think I had the tools to win this match, as he only did normal elves things, but I just don't remember much about this match other than thinking I shouldn't have died and that it was my fault.

    Sideboarding
    +2 Containment Priest, +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Pyrokinesis
    -2 Goblin Pildriver, -2 Mogg War Marshal, -1 Stingscourger

    With my autopilit I referred to my notes from the previous match and boarded the same, improper way. Man, I deserve these losses.

    Game 2
    I mulligan once and he twice. I beat him up with good ol' fashion Goblin Lackey beats with Pyrokinesis helping along. He never really stood up this game. Probably that mul to 5.

    Game 3
    No mulligans. We play a really long game that I eventaully took with superior board presence due to my card draw. This was all Gempalm Incinerator with Goblin Sharpshooter to finish it off.

    Summary
    Same deal. Elves is a fine match-up, but I really am missing those extra kill spells. Notably I wasn't playing any better, my hand just paired up properly. I still feel like my sequencing is way off.

    Match 6 - Wesley on Storm (ANT)
    Game 1
    We both keep and he wins the die roll. I die on turn 2 with a Goblin Lackey in play to Tendrils of Agony. Noteably he is on ANT not TES.

    Sideboarding
    +3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +2 Surgical Extraction, +2 Relic of Progenitus, +1 Wear // Tear, +1 Tin Street Hooligan, +1 Krenko, Mob Boss
    -3 Goblin Ringleader, -2 Tarfire, -2 Pyrokinesis, -1 Gempalm Incinerator, -1 Stingscourger, -1 Mogg War marshal

    Game 2
    I jammed a Relic of Progenitus on T1 and a Thalia, Guardian of Thraben on T2 and won from there.

    Game 3
    I mulligan and keep a hand with a Relic of Progenitus, Surgical Extraction, and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. He cantrips and passes. I jam the Relic of Progenitus and pass it back. He goes off on T2 again. I attempt to snipe Dark Ritual in the middle of his sequence but he had enough floating mana to play the one he had in hand. I die to Tendrils of Agony again.

    Summary
    His hands were pretty fast, a tad faster than average, but not out of scope of what's to be expected. I lost due to my SB not respecting storm. I had all of the tools my deck can actually give me for those matches, so I can't complain there.

    Match 7 - Cameron on Miracles
    Game 1
    I win the die roll and we keep our 7s. I find out pretty quickly my opponent is on Miracles, which is rough as my hand doens't have Goblin Matron or Goblin Ringleader. My AEther Vial was countered on T1 and I never had a Cavern of Souls. So this game grinds rather hard. At some point he removes my Stinscourger (that I had paid the echo on) with a Snapcaster Mage on Swords to Plowshares. This caused an event I will likely not see again in Legacy. For fear of being beaten down by the 2/1 as my hand was hot garbage, I paid 6 mana for a Pyrokinesis to kill it. He of course hard cast Force of Will. The battle of Alliance set cards did not end there for the same thing ocurred again on the following turn. I paid 6 mana for a Pyrokinesis and he once again Force of Willed back for 5 mana. Too efficient for me. I top deck a Tarfire and kill the 2/1, but die to a Jace, the Mind Scultpor that lands the following turn.

    Sideboarding
    I'm pretty bummed that I lost the grind to Miracles. I have a greater understanding as to why the deck is good though. Imagine this, some decks simply can't draw 8 extra cards in a game. I hurts to think about, I know.

    +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Wear // Tear
    -2 Tarfire, -1 Stingscourger

    I will board in Thalia, Guardian of Thraben if I didn't already have 3 cards to bring in. I value Goblin Ringleader in this match far more than I value Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

    Game 2
    We keep our 7s and the game slowly starts up. I have a hand tailor made for defeating Miracles, Multiple Goblin Matrons and Goblin Ringleaders with a Pithing Needle naming Sensei's Divining Top. Then the most amazing set of things happened. I died.

    End of my turn 5 he Kozilek's Return killing a 1/1 and a 2/2, he jams a Jace, the Mind Sculptor on his turn. I follow up with Goblin Matron for Goblin Ringleader and a Goblin Piledriver passing turn with a 1/1 and a 1/2 in play. He Terminus. I recommit and bother Jace for 2. He Terminus. I recommit yet again, and get Swords to Plowshared on the 2/2. I Recommit yet again and see another 2 STP's, one from Snapcaster Mage. Jace, the Mind Sculptor is brainstorming as fast as he can here. I jam 2 more threats, yet again, Mogg War Marshal and Goblin Piledriver, and get Terminus again. He takes his turn and jams Wear on my Pithing Needle naming Sensei's Divining Top and goes off with Monastery Mentor and the two Dreidels. I interact and get rid of the Mentor, but he managed to get 3 tokens out of it. I jam a Goblin Warchief and another Goblin Piledriver, unable to attack. He Entreats the Angels for 5 on his turn, and ships it back. It's the first time I've ever conceded a fair match up with 2 Goblin Matrons in hand and a Warchief in play at the start of my turn.

    That game ended and I literally went "WOW!" and he responded with "I KNOW!"

    Summary
    Those were both very unusual games, but at least I got those stories out of it. I don't think I could have done much more, sometimes you both run hot, but they hotter. Sweet game.

    Match 8 - Don on Turbo Depths
    Game 1
    We both keep our 7s and he is on the play. He leads with Dark Depths. Fearing Pithing Needle, as there has been some Turbo Depths running around the room I immediately Wasteland his Dark Depths, as hands that run it out often have Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth into Vampire Hexmage. He drops a new Dark Depths, two Lotus Petals and a Vampire Hexmage on his follow up turn. I wasn't that far off, I die on the following turn.

    In retrospect I could have waited, as he had already committed the threat, I could wait for the needle and respond to it. In all cases, his hand was very good.

    Sideboarding
    +3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +2 Surgical Extraction, +2 Relic of Progenitus, +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Wear // Tear, +1 Krenko, Mob Boss
    -3 Goblin Ringleader, -2 Mogg War Marshal, -2 Tarfire, -2 Pyrokinesis, -1 Gempalm Incinerator

    Game 2
    We keep our 7s. I lead on AEther Vial. He drops just a Thespian's Stage. I tick Vial to 1 and Vial in a Skirk Prospector, which I sac for mana to cast Goblin Matron searching up Stingscourger. He drops some Lotus Petal and Dark Depths, representing the combo, passing turn. I tick Vial to 2 and pass turn, attempting to Port him on his upkeep, to force him to go off. He makes a 20/20 and I attempt to Stingscourger with AEther Vial. He casts Not of This World and hits me for 20 after drawing a card for turn.

    Summary
    I interacted on each event in a relevant fashion, probably a bit too early in game 1, and lost anyway. Not really sure what to say here. Pithing Needle would have been very good had I drawn it.

    On the bright side I don't feel nearly as sick now that it doesn't matter.

    Match 9 - Meriwether on Infect
    Game 1
    We keep our 7s, and she is on the play. She quickly reveals she is on infect with a Tropical Island for Noble Hierarch. I suppose this could be bant, but in both cases I am bolting that bird, or in this case, Tarfire-ing. She eventually gets an Inkmoth Nexus online and hits me for 5 poison off of a kicked Vines of Vastwood. I start using multiple Rishadan Port in a fashion that would make Richard Garfield cry, and won the game from there with some normal beats. Love me some port.

    Sideboarding
    +3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Pyrokinesis
    -3 Goblin Ringleader, -1 Krenko, Mob Boss, -1 Goblin Piledriver, -1 Stingscourger

    It seems I pulled my head out of my ass and boarded a bit better. still cutting that Stingscourger seems loose though. I'm glad I note this stuff down at least. Still I think that is a force of habit, AKA me on autopilot again.

    Game 2
    Very similar to game 1, but with Multiple Pyrokinesis. [cards]Rishadan Port[cards] is very, very good.

    Summary
    My hand paired up very well this time round, and I believe it will tend to do that on the average against infect, especially if there are 6 mainboard kill spells, 1 Stingscourger, 1 Goblin Sharpshooter AND 3 Pyrokinesis in the board as I usually play.

    GP Louisville Matches Summary
    So I went 4/5. I played like shit and got rewarded as such. My deck wasn't tuned and ultimately all of these factors resulted in my record. I was sick most of this event and watched myself play poorly in what felt like slow motion. That said, this event was a blast, and I had a ton of fun. Noteably I didn't play against Reanimator OR D&T, which is confusing. I know they were there. The Show & Tell player in our car played against D&T Rounds 1 - 4 and again in like round 7, he admirably won 2 of the matches. I saw Reanimator out and about, but never played against it.

    The day after the event.
    I played some more side events the day after as well with a slightly different board. I found the side events pull out players who like sweet stuff, and sweet stuff tends to die to Naturalize.

    3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    2 Relic of Progenitus
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Containment Priest
    2 Pithing Needle
    2 Wear // Tear
    1 Krenko, Mob Boss
    1 Pyrokinesis

    This time round I played against Abzan Nic Fit, Sneak & Show, Soldier Stompy, and Grixis Delver.

    The Soldier Stompy player, Sean, seemed so happy that I recognized what deck he was on off of the turn 1 Suppression Field. It seemed whoever won the die roll would win the match, too much momentum. There was an upset though. I died that day to a 28/28 Selfless Squire on the crackback from my alpha strike. I was NOT playing around that, I was playing around multiple STPs though, which is why I didn't have any blockers.


    Overall Summary
    10/10 Would play a Legacy GP again. I think we can work on my list a bit here. If someone put a gun to my head and said run the event back, I'd do the below list.

    MB
    4 Wasteland
    4 Rishadan Port
    4 Cavern of Souls
    3 Mountain
    1 Taiga
    1 Plateau
    3 Wooded Foothills
    3 Bloodstained Mire
    4 AEther Vial
    4 Goblin Lackey
    1 Skirk Prospector
    3 Goblin Piledriver
    2 Mogg War Marshal
    2 Tin Street Hooligan
    1 Stingscourger
    4 Goblin Matron
    4 Goblin Warchief
    1 Goblin Sharpshooter
    4 Goblin Ringleader
    1 Krenko, Mob Boss
    2 Gempalm Incinerator
    4 Tarfire
    SB
    3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    3 Relic of Progenitus
    3 Pyrokinesis
    2 Containment Priest
    2 Blood Mooon
    2 Pithing Needle

    I'm not sure this is exactly optimum either, but it does what I want. I really do like having as many Piledriver's as possible though. Also I really like how good Tarfire is at doing it's thing. 1 mana removal is at a premium in Legacy, even if it's shock.

    Thanks for reading, hope you learned from my mistakes!
    Last edited by Olaf Forkbeard; 01-12-2017 at 11:30 PM.

    If I edit a post without an explanation, I am just correcting typos and / or formatting.
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  2. #162

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Hey everyone!

    Happy to read everyone's GP reports (even with Olaf's unfortunate condition and luck). I wish I could have been there!

    A shop near me has started to run 15 proxy legacy events (non-sanctioned of course) and I'd like to start really tuning my sideboard for the meta that will arise. I'm finally almost done with the maindeck (1 port and 1 cavern away, though I'm questioning the relative importance of a 4th port). Anyway, I'm having trouble really deciding what to change. It feels...decent right now, but I think could still be optimized. I'll include a list of cards that I own/can get ahold of at the end of the list as the "maybeboard" of what I'm considering.

    A few things before my list! Smuggler's Copter is still great, and I'm happy with the 2 I'm running. If you're curious, I'll gladly try to sell you on the card (though I've already tried to do so in the thread). I've also acquired 2 Thalia's and an Eidolon of the Great Revel as spell based combo hate. Is there a particular need to get the 3rd Thalia, or is diversifying okay? Double red is a little difficult, but I'm also running more red sources than stock lists, so it's probably better than usual. Eidolon seems good against Elves too, for what it's worth.

    An idea I'm toying with is swapping out the pendelhaven or the GQ for a Karakas. I have a lot of people around who really enjoy slamming big legendary creatures (particularly Griseldad) into play, so it seems decent to have. Protecting Krenko's nice too. I'm struggling with the idea of going up to 23 lands, which may be optimal since I now have a fetch-dual manabase instead of all basics, but I feel like 23 will result in flooding. Copter helps with land drops, but I'm more vulnerable to wasteland now. I'm definitely torn on this.

    Here's the meta that I'm expecting;
    Grixis Delver (splashing green for 2 abrupt decay in board off 1 trop)
    Big Red
    High Tide
    Enchantress (oh god why)
    Maverick (not loam heavy version, relic is not particularly effective against them in all of our matches. My most frequent opponent)
    Elves
    Burn (without Goblin Guide, matchup seems more even than I thought it would be)
    UW Stasis (deck hasn't changed since 2007 I think. Is beautiful though. Kinda impossible to lose to)
    Belcher (ugh)
    Eldrazi
    Storm (ANT)
    D&T x2
    RG Lands
    Infect (mono-green right now, but he might proxy up the blue cards)
    BR reanimator x2 (super not fun. It's worth noting that it's just 1 guy who has BR reanimator, Big Red, and Omnisneak, so I won't ever see them all in a single event, unless he starts lending the decks out)
    Manaless Dredge
    Omnisneak
    Punishing Jund

    These are the known possibilities, but who knows who will turn up at the promise of proxied legacy. Hopefully all miracles players


    My Current List; Looting Scootin Goblin Gang
    Artifacts: 6
    4 Vial
    2 Smuggler's Copter

    Creatures: 30

    4 Lackey
    4 Warchief
    4 Matron
    4 Ringleader
    3 Mogg War Marshal
    3 Gempalm
    1 Piledriver
    1 Sharpshooter
    1 Prospector
    1 Chieftain
    1 Tuktuk Scrapper
    1 Siege-Gang Commander
    1 Krenko
    1 Stingscourger

    Instants: 2
    1 Pyrokinesis
    1 Tarfire

    Lands: 22
    4 Wasteland
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Wooded Foothills
    3 Cavern
    3 Port
    3 Mountain
    1 Plateau
    1 Pendelhaven
    1 Ghost Quarter (fairly sure this should be another mountain, I think only 4 fetchables is too low)

    Sideboard: 15
    2 Pyrokinesis
    2 Blood Moon
    2 Pithing Needle
    2 Surgical Extraction
    1 Tuktuk Scrapper
    1 Eidolon of the Great Revel
    1 Piledriver
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Relic of Progenitus
    1 Warping Wail
    1 REB

    Maybeboard: Things I want to/could put into the Sideboard, but don't know what to take out.
    2 Thalia (highest priority)
    1/2 Wear//Tear (would be very nice to have against D&T and makes enchantress winnable)
    1 Stingscourger
    1 Relic of Progenitus/ Tormod's Crypt (more ways to stop BR reanimator/Dredge from going off turn 1 is nice. Relic isn't doing much against a lot of the decks in the room, there are no goyfs as far as I know.)
    1 REB
    Purphoros, God of the Forge (Has this been tried before? I swear I saw it on a stream once and it looked pretty sweet in the 75. Maybe too cute/my meta's not grindy enough for it to be good. Seems great against Shardless and the like.

    Thanks for any assistance everyone!

    Onto other, more widely applicable issues; There has been a rare shift in the overall legacy meta I since the GP. mtggoldish.com's breakdown of the meta shows that miracles seems to be losing its stranglehold on the format (only 12% compared to 20% last year, if I remember correctly) and Sultai Delver has supplanted Grixis as the most popular delver deck. But the 2 biggest new decks that are getting popular (I think) are all the leovold brews (either Reid Duke's winning list, or in Alluren combo) and BR Reanimator. Obviously, the rise of such a degenerate fast combo deck is quite bad for us, and I saw earlier in the thread both Dan and Olaf agree that it's better to just try to dodge it than fill up too much of the sideboard to fight it. Is this the general consensus of those playing in a relatively "representative" meta?

    As far as Leovold decks, how do you other goblins pilots think the matchup is? I have yet to actually play against it much, but here are my thoughts;
    - 4 TNN is quite a beating, clearly. The mana base is kinda shaky though, so if it's possible to kill the dorks and do some waste/port plays, keeping them off of it while you buy time for vial seems relatively possible. Jitte on TNN is probably game over though.
    - Leovold himself doesn't actually seem too concerning. There are situations where he can completely dominate the game, but if they just tap out for him on turn 2 or 3, Gempalming him on one of their end steps seems like quite a tempo loss for them, and you still get the card. It's quite fortunate that Matron and Ringleader aren't worded as draws, or else he'd be way scarier.
    - The deck plays a lot of blue creatures, so Piledriver might finally be relevant in a creature matchup again. Reid's deck only ran a single goyf, so I imagine big 'driver swings can get there pretty often.
    - Daze is a pretty big difference over normal BUG decks like Shardless. I can't decide whether or not this makes the matchup better or worse (I'm inclined to say worse, just as we can often strand it in their hands/make it irrelevant with Cavern and Vial
    - Lackey also seems decent because of the Noble Hierarchs. Much easier to hit on turn 2 because you can gempalm the dork (unlike DRS, cursed be its name)
    - No toxic deluge in the 75 makes swarming pretty easy. Perhaps this changes as people tune his deck for different metas.

    Overall, I believe that Reid's deck is not as tough a matchup as Shardless BUG, but perhaps I'm way off base here. Curious to hear everyone else's thoughts.

    Thanks for reading my long post (once more). I gotta start posting in smaller chunks. I'll try to get better at that for the sake of the forum.

  3. #163
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    I would take the following board to your meta.

    3 Pyrokinesis
    3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    3 Grafdigger's Cage
    2 Wear // Tear
    2 Blood Moon
    2 Mindbreak Trap

    You can get away with no Needle because of Blood Moon for the lands match-ups, and Wear // Tear has active text outside of the normal destroying equipment against Stasis, Enchantress, and Sneak Attack. Eidolon of the Great Revel will work 100% fine in place of Thalia. I don't think it's as good, but I do think it's splitting hairs on it being worse. Honestly the thing holding it back is RR to cast. After that you can go ahead and let Reanimator get 1 in, followed by locking them out with Thalia or Cage after Stingscourging their threat. Trap is good against Elves, Storm, Belcher, and High Tide. It's probably worth testing against Mono Red Sneak Attack as well, but I can't confirm or deny on that one. I actually think you have more reason to run Mindbreak Trap than I usually justify to myself when I end up running it. The only thing I don't like about this proposed list is the lack of the second Stingscourger. It would have to go over the Grafdigger's Cage if you ran it, but I'm not convinced that's better. Additionally, due to the lack of Relic, I would consider swapping the Siege-Gang Commander over to a Krenko as well as an extra way to fight Goyf and KoTR.

    Lose the Ghost Quarter, just make sure you can cast your spells, jam a color in that slot. If it's not as powerful as Port or Wasteland, it's probably not worth justifying the loss of the color fixing.

    Fighting Leovold in my experiences results in 2 options. Efficiently answering it as a 1:1 or 1:2 OR giving them about 4 free cards. Somehow both options were fine, but only because I usually run 4 Piledrivers. He is a 3/3 and can clock you back pretty hard, but I've been able to check him with ease due to this. If he is checked, and my opponent is drawing free cards, that is only because I am buying a ton of tempo. It was pretty okay. I imagine if you have less than 2 Piledriver's though this could easily become a big issue. I'd agree his list isn't really prepared to beat Goblins, and it looks WAY better than the Shardless Match-up, but this could easily be fixed if someone sees you in their meta and jams some number of Marsh Casualties, or Jitte.

    Reid's list for everyone's viewing pleasure.

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  4. #164

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Hi all!

    First, I'm super happy to have stumbled across an active Goblins thread. MTG Salvation's thread doesn't seem very responsive to new posts or lists.

    Second, I've never piloted Goblins before. It has always been very much into Modern since I've been playing at the LGS; but, there has been an interest in more Legacy play and a push for Legacy FNMs. I decide to build goblins because it looks like a ton of fun to pilot, seem very well positioned to take on blue, and I really like playing them in Commander. A friend of mine managed to secure a trade at GP Louisville to get the Cavern of Souls' and Rishadan Port's I needed to finish a list. Overall, this is my first list based off what I've read on here, various articles on major MTG sites, and watching game play on Youtube. The "meta" is blind currently, but I know there is a Tezzerator, Combo Elves, Grixis Delver, and UG Infect floating around in a few peoples backpacks.

    [LANDS] - 23
    6 Rx Fetchland
    3 Mountain
    2 Badlands
    1 Taiga
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Wasteland
    3 Rishadan Port

    [CREATURES] - 30
    4 Goblin Lackey
    1 Skirk Prospector
    1 Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
    1 Stingscourger
    2 Goblin Piledriver
    2 Mogg War Marshal
    2 Tin Street Hooligan
    1 Goblin Sharpshooter
    4 Goblin Matron
    2 Gempalm Incinerator
    2 Goblin Warchief
    3 Goblin Chieftain
    4 Goblin Ringleader
    1 Krenko, Mob Boss

    [ARTIFACTS] - 4
    4 Aether Vial

    [OTHER SPELLS] - 3
    2 Tarfire
    1 Warren Weirding

    NO BOARD YET, but I'm looking at Cabal Therapy and Thoughsieze (hence the Badlands in the main)

    Any feedback would be great. Looking over the last few pages of the forum, it look like maybe cutting Tarfire or MD Pyrokinesis would be a solid move (with a known elf deck especially). I also thought about cutting -1 Skirk Prospector, -1 Goblin Sharpshooter, and 2 Goblin Piledriver for +1 Krenko, Mob Boss, +1 Gempalm Incinerator, and +2 Mogg War Marshal. There seems to be a split on whether Piledriver is as effective or not. I kinda like the set up now, but it really seems like a super stock list.

    Couple of other thoughts that I had while brewing this up. What about running Wort, Boggart Auntie? The only major set back that I see is that she doesn't impact the board at all but recurring Tarfires or Incinerators seems pretty cool in theory, maybe another way to recover from a boardwipe? Although it doesn't appear that boardwipes are all that terrible if you literally play your cards right. The other idea I had was building Punishing Goblins. There are already some heavier green splashes on this forum, incorporating Grove of the Burnwillows and utilizing Punishing Fire over Tarfire seems very doable maybe a list like this?

    [LANDS] - 22
    2 Wooded Foothills
    2 Arid Mesa
    3 Mountain
    2 Taiga
    4 Grove of the Burnwillows
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Wasteland
    1 Pendelhaven

    [CREATURES] - 27
    4 Goblin Lackey
    3 Warren Instigator
    3 Goblin Piledriver
    3 Mogg War Marshal
    4 Goblin Matron
    2 Gempalm Incinerator
    4 Goblin Chieftain
    4 Goblin Ringleader

    [ARTIFACTS] - 7
    3 Lotus Petal
    4 Aether Vial

    [OTHER SPELLS] - 4
    4 Punishing Fire

    I don't know, just a list off the top of my head. I like Lotus Pedal better than Chrome Mox because we don't lose a card to get our 2 mana on Turn 1.

    That's it for now, I look forward to collaborating with everyone and, til next time, Happy Gaming!!

  5. #165
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    I'd recommend some non zero number of the chrome mox over the lotus petals as goblin mana can be pretty tight and the chrome mox is often used several times for mana the games they are drawn. (turn 1 instigator into turn 2 Chieftain can be important)

    With instigator you'll probably want a Kiki-Jiki in there. It's a bit too strong if you're holding a matron even if you don't have a toolbox of other goblins.

    It's a tricky deck to pilot, so I'd recommend using some lists that have shown to work (there's a few to choose from. Play the hell out of them and then think about what you'd like to change then. You said yourself you haven't tried the decks yet, so I'd recommend this.)
    -rob

  6. #166
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Picked up Goblins yet again. Currently trying out this list:

    4 Aether Vial
    4 Lightning Bolt

    4 Goblin Lackey
    4 Goblin Matron
    4 Goblin Ringleader
    4 Gempalm Incinerator
    4 Goblin Piledriver
    2 Tin Street Hooligan
    1 Siege-Gang Commander
    1 Stingscourger
    1 Mogg Fanatic
    1 Krenko, Mob Boss
    1 Mogg War Marshal
    1 Goblin Chieftain
    1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

    4 Wasteland
    3 Rishadan Port
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Mountain
    1 Wooded Foothills
    1 Taiga
    1 Karakas
    1 Plateau

    SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
    SB: 2 Pyroblast
    SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
    SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
    SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
    SB: 1 Containment Priest
    SB: 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

    No love for Warchiefs here. They just seem like juicy targets for StP, Abrupt Decay or Bolt. I wanted to keep the curve as low as possible without giving up too much power. 4 Bolts, 4 Vial, 4 Lackey and 1 Fanatic give me a turn 1 play mostly. With 4 Piledrivers, 4 Gempalm, 1 MWM and 1 Thalia there is pretty much a turn 2 play always and turn 3, 2 spells can be played. Additionally, the list packs a fair bit of disruption between 3 Port, 4 Waste and 1 Thalia as mana disruption along with 4 Bolt to shoot down Deathrite or Tin Street to nuke Aether Vial. Bolt is also good against planeswalkers and multiple Bolts give reach to finish an opponent. Additionally, a Karakas is there to protect Thalia and Krenko, but it does double duty to slow down Show and Tell and Reanimator decks which are all over the place. It's also great against opposing Legendary creatures. The Piledrivers seem good now that so many decks play Jace TMS, True Name Nemesis and Leovold. Finally, with 10 creature kill spells, Lackey gets through fairly often.

    Sideboard aims to hate out all the unfair decks such as Elves, Reanimator, Show and Tell, ANT etc. For example, vs. ANT there are 12 relevant cards to board in and vs. Show and Tell you can board in 9 cards.

    TL;DR: Cut Warchiefs for relevant cards, play a sideboard that is almost exclusively aimed at beating up the unfair decks.

    What are your thoughts on 0 Warchief and only 1 Chieftain? Is it nuts or reasonable?
    Team R&D

  7. #167
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    By cutting Warchief, and playing just one Haste-lord, you are taking away some of the power imho. You mention Lightning Bolt being a t1 play? As a removal-spell it won't go upstairs, unless it has to. The lone Fanatic is nice, but seems a bit weird (on a sidenote, I do miss the 'old Fanatic').
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  8. #168
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Yes I was thinking about the same thing yesterday. The old Fanatic would have been great in this Deathrite Shaman infested metagame. Lone Fanatic is basically there because sometimes I want to kill a one mana dork and Fanatic is there. It's also good for providing bodies for Piledriver and Gempalm Incinerator.

    I only send Bolt upstairs if I can kill my opponent of course. It's a disruptive piece to get Lackey online, slow the opponent down to get to the endgame or clear out planeswalkers. I could see the merit of replacing one of the Bolts with Tarfire, providing the deck with some additional flexibility.

    My reason for omitting Warchief is that I think our manacurve becomes way too high for the current state of Legacy. It does not attack very profitably and if the opponent counters or removes it, it's a huge tempo swing whilst card parity is maintained. Of course, the games where you go Warchief, Matron, Matron, Piledriver and swing for a bunch will be missed, but with clever play these games should favor you anyway.

    The most important reason for my weird list is that given the current state of affairs, we need to do things differently. Just playing a stock Goblin list of yore is not a tournament winning strategy, we all know that. However, I do truly believe in the power of Aether Vial paired with Wasteland, Port and efficient removal to get rid of mana dorks.
    Team R&D

  9. #169

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard View Post
    I would take the following board to your meta.

    3 Pyrokinesis
    3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    3 Grafdigger's Cage
    2 Wear // Tear
    2 Blood Moon
    2 Mindbreak Trap

    You can get away with no Needle because of Blood Moon for the lands match-ups, and Wear // Tear has active text outside of the normal destroying equipment against Stasis, Enchantress, and Sneak Attack. Eidolon of the Great Revel will work 100% fine in place of Thalia. I don't think it's as good, but I do think it's splitting hairs on it being worse. Honestly the thing holding it back is RR to cast. After that you can go ahead and let Reanimator get 1 in, followed by locking them out with Thalia or Cage after Stingscourging their threat. Trap is good against Elves, Storm, Belcher, and High Tide. It's probably worth testing against Mono Red Sneak Attack as well, but I can't confirm or deny on that one. I actually think you have more reason to run Mindbreak Trap than I usually justify to myself when I end up running it. The only thing I don't like about this proposed list is the lack of the second Stingscourger. It would have to go over the Grafdigger's Cage if you ran it, but I'm not convinced that's better. Additionally, due to the lack of Relic, I would consider swapping the Siege-Gang Commander over to a Krenko as well as an extra way to fight Goyf and KoTR.

    Lose the Ghost Quarter, just make sure you can cast your spells, jam a color in that slot. If it's not as powerful as Port or Wasteland, it's probably not worth justifying the loss of the color fixing.

    Fighting Leovold in my experiences results in 2 options. Efficiently answering it as a 1:1 or 1:2 OR giving them about 4 free cards. Somehow both options were fine, but only because I usually run 4 Piledrivers. He is a 3/3 and can clock you back pretty hard, but I've been able to check him with ease due to this. If he is checked, and my opponent is drawing free cards, that is only because I am buying a ton of tempo. It was pretty okay. I imagine if you have less than 2 Piledriver's though this could easily become a big issue. I'd agree his list isn't really prepared to beat Goblins, and it looks WAY better than the Shardless Match-up, but this could easily be fixed if someone sees you in their meta and jams some number of Marsh Casualties, or Jitte.

    Reid's list for everyone's viewing pleasure.
    Thanks a lot for the board advice! Unfortunately, despite trading extensively for things (finally got my plateau!), not a single person had a single cage or mindbreak. So it appears I'm still stuck with surgicals and 1 cage for now, which I think is fine. Mindbreak does seem pretty important so I could just buy them. I would really like to keep the piledriver in the board to have against combo decks that I just need to clock quickly. Maybe it just belongs in the main, but then I'd have to either do a 2-2 split with driver and war marshal (which I don't like very much) or a copter (which I also don't like because I think they're quite strong/am still gathering data on them). Hopefully I can go to an event soon and fully make up my mind on the Copter plan. My gut tells me they solve some significant deck problems, but I'm still not quite sure.


    On mana bases, I've picked up a karakas and am testing it in the "flex slot" I have. I'm actually at 5 fetches right now instead of 6, and I think having 4 mountains over 3 is better. If I went up to 23 land (which I'd probably do when I get the 4th cavern) then 6 fetches seems right, but I haven't had any trouble with casting thalia on turn 2 most games. I guess I'll see how it goes the more data I gather. Pendelhaven may be unnecessary, so perhaps I could just do a straight swap there.

  10. #170
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Oh God Mantis is nice to see you back.
    As for your list, I have no idea what to think. Please test and let us know if it works. My only opinion is that Piledriver sucks without Warchief ( he's very bad even with Chieftain) so I'd think of replacing him for Instigator as your 2drop of choice.
    And would like to know why are you playing Bolts over Tarfires. I get the pros and cons, but don't think there are many relevant 3 toughness creatures to deal with that would make me want to play bolt in thia meta.

    Which leads me to:
    Leovold.
    Seriously. He is a 3 mana 3/3. That's it. And he's blue. He's shit shit against us. We play against relicary. Just ignore him until you win. And gempalming him is still 1 for 1. Even though I think I'd rather gempalm a Noble than him. I get the fuzz about the card, but it is garbage against us.

    Someone asked about:
    Wort
    It's a good card. But then they printed Krenko. And that's it. The scenarios that sort would be better than krenko are so scarce that it is just not worth it.

    And someone suggested:
    Purphoros
    It's a lovely card. I really love it. Comes in against all grindy matchup without stifles or dazes. Problem is, Blood Moon is better against all those mathups.
    But if you wanna live the dream one day, play him with Krenko. Fun guaranteed.

    @griffinpride:
    I'm not gonna comment on your lists, because reasons, but since you're new to the deck, my suggestion would be (as mistercakes) use a proven list. Play a bit with it. THEN make changes. Netdecking is good when you're new to stuff.

    @olaf: thanks for the report. Bad beats, but very helpful to read.

    @goblinlackey: please let us know your testing of copter. I'm very interested (even though extremely skeptic).

    Sent from my SM-J500M using Tapatalk
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  11. #171

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by ScatmanX View Post
    Purphoros
    It's a lovely card. I really love it. Comes in against all grindy matchup without stifles or dazes. Problem is, Blood Moon is better against all those mathups.
    But if you wanna live the dream one day, play him with Krenko. Fun guaranteed.



    @goblinlackey: please let us know your testing of copter. I'm very interested (even though extremely skeptic).

    Sent from my SM-J500M using Tapatalk
    If my meta changed to a bunch of Shardless, I think I would definitely slot him in as a one-of in the board. Seems insane in the grindy midrange mirror.

    So my testing of copter goes back to last November at this point, and I've played it in a lot of different iterations, making it a wee bit difficult to fully codify. I've probably played 70-80ish matches with the card across all versions of Goblins including it. The majority of my testing was against random opponents on Cockatrice, with a decent chunk coming from a friend of mine who I consider an extremely good player (no credentials other than top 8s at a few SCG IQs. Take my word for it though, a very high skill player). He offered to let me test against a bunch of different decks. For what it's worth (he's an Elves and Storm player primarily), he was impressed with copter. My paper version has also been playing copter now, but not for long enough to be statistically significant. My manabase in paper is also not quite complete, making comparisons a little more difficult. I'll therefore disregard my paper results from my conclusions. (I can say it's good against Maverick, that's about it)


    I started out on the full 4 copter plan just to make testing more efficient as I would draw it more often. I was playing 3 for quite awhile, but I've decided on 2 because it was too difficult to sideboard properly without taking too many goblins out for ringleader purposes (ie. bringing in 2-3 relics and 2 blood moon against Shardless means ringleader's gonna be a lot worse, as you'll have 13 non-goblin spells; 3 relic, 2 blood moon, 1-2 prokinesis, 3 copter, 4 vial). So I'd say the frequency you'd like to draw copter at is the equivalent of having 3 in the deck, but you can only realistically fit in 2.

    I took down match results on my phone, with small annotations occasionally for when Copter was especially good (though I definitely slacked off on this as time went on).

    Here is exactly what I have written out from my phone; these are all matches against the random Cockatrice opponents. I attached small notes to each title to contextualize the kind of list I was playing. I started with black splash version, with earwig squad and grenzo, to a green splash, to monored, to now with a white splash. Something I never tried was a piledriver-heavy (3-4) list, as that seems to be a plain nonbo (if you have creatures crewing, the piledriver won't be as big).

    Smuggling Goblins 1.0 (4 Copter, only 1 piledriver SB)
    2-0 Stiflenaught
    2-0 Dragon Stompy
    0-2 Dragon Stompy
    2-0 Merfolk
    2-1 Shardless
    2-1 Shardless (mull to 5, siege-gang saves me)
    0-2 Food Chain (never played against it before, didn't know what I was doing)
    2-0 BUG Delver
    2-1 Elves
    0-2 Eldrazi
    2-1 Eldrazi
    2-1 Storm
    2-1 Storm
    2-1 Nic Fit
    2-1 D&T
    2-1 UR Delver

    Smuggling Goblins 2.0 (3 copter, 3 warmarshal, 1 piledriver, 1 grenzo, dungeon warden)
    1-2 Punishing Maverick (copter extremely good)
    2-0 Thopter/Sword
    2-1 Eldrazi (copter good)
    1-0 (....splinter twin? The person left after game 1. It happens occasionally)
    1-2 MUD (only because of insane luck with a topdecked ugin. Do think I misplayed during the last game though. Copter still good, dodged ugin's minus game 1)

    Smuggling Goblins 3.0 (-1 Grenzo, +1 Piledriver, 2 total)
    2-0 MUD
    2-1 BUG, but not shardless or delver. Saw DRS, Liliana, and TNN. (Copter all star game 1. Double copter is very quick clock)
    2-1 Stiflenaught (was salty about a krenko going nuts)
    2-0 4 Color Delver
    2-0 Reanimator, with a stompy twist, chalice and ancient tomb
    2-0 Soldier Stompy
    2-0 Pox
    2-0 Big Red/ Mono-Red Sneak attack (copter great, survived inferno titan and let me swing for lethal over it)
    0-2 Storm (punted by not putting chalice on 0)
    1-2 Infect (punted on a pyrokinesis)
    2-0 Dredge
    2-1 Enchantress
    0-2 BR Reanimator
    1-1 4 Color Landstill (we decided to call it a draw)
    2-0 Miracles

    Smuggling Goblins 4.0, heavier green splash, warping wail sb, 3 copter
    2-1 Sneak and Show
    2-0 Sneak and Show
    1-2 Merfolk (died because of lack of red source all game)
    0-2 UR Delver
    2-0 Miracles

    Unhelpfully, my notes here just say "new sideboard"
    0-2 Omnitell (punt)
    2-0 Shardless (krenko FTW)
    0-2 Shardless
    2-1 4 Color Deathblade (nothing on copter, but managed to beat SoFI and Jitte on a containment priest. Dunno how I managed that)


    Smuggling Goblins 5.0 (white splash for Thalia in the board, I believe I was now at 2 Copters)
    2-1 Omni-Tell
    0-2 Nic Fit
    2-0 Pox
    2-1 Nic Fit
    2-0 Infect
    1-2 Turbo Depths (punted away the game somehow, drew 4 wastelands and still lost. Didn't play around crop rotation)
    0-2 Goblin Mirror w/ Vial Smasher, Fireblast, other nonsense. Was fun though!
    2-0 Goblin mirror rematch
    1-0 D&T (left after game 1)
    1-2 GB Infect (deck is terrifying, died on turn 2 with them on a mull to 5)

    I'm not sure where these matches fit into the testing timeline, but here they are nonetheless. My phone notes got disordered somehow.

    Smuggling Goblins, Green splash, back to chalices in SB, 3 Copters
    0-2 Infect
    2-1 Nic Fit
    1-2 D&T(sidenote for myself; be more aggressive)

    Heavier green splash, 4 Copters, 1 sharpshooter--was cut from the initial version of the deck along with prospector
    2-0 Pox (beat engineered plague twice)
    2-0 Enchantress
    0-2 Shardless (died to goyf)
    1-2 D&T (drew terrible game 3, game 1 was illustration of "going wide")

    As for my matches with my friend, we've tested matches against Shardless, D&T, Elves, Eldrazi, and Grixis Delver. I don't have match results taken down, the games played factors in how I adjusted my list since.

    Conclusions and Analysis;
    Copter has a couple of important effects on the deck in terms of how you play it. I like to think of the Copter as a colorless Delver that dodges wraths. It allows you play a tempo game you couldn't really play before. Once the copter is on board, the plan becomes matron for gempalms to make sure you survive, and just supply a steady number of 1/1s as crew. The loot can usually draw you into action while ditching those late game lackey and vials. Copter plus a few ground attacks makes it so you can hit for 4-5 damage without compromising your board position, or using your warchiefs for dangerous combats. MWM makes crewing trivial, I can recall only a single game where I was unable to crew the copter when I needed to. The echo creatures pair particularly well with Copter, as you crew in your upkeep before they die.

    There are definitely some metagame gaps in my testing (one of which happens to be miracles, which I only encountered twice and one sided into a landstill deck). Also, it's important to keep in mind that Cockatrice isn't exactly the most competitive venue, so my win-loss ratio may be slightly inflated there. However, you can also look at the results with the caveat of myself not being a particularly experienced Goblins pilot. I've only been really playing a proper version of the deck for a few months now. I'm also relatively new to the Legacy format as a whole, so at many times I was playing against archetypes for the first time ever (I believe this is true for GB Depths, BR reanimator, D&T, and Deathblade). Since this is the case, you could probably boost the percentage a few points if we want to examine "deck power" rather than pilot effectiveness. Goblins is hard to play 100% right!

    Based on my testing, I believe Copter significantly improves our odds against; Shardless, D&T, BUG Delver, Deathblade Variants. The evasion+loot is very nice against Shardless in particular, and dodging Toxic Deluge is absolutely huge. It does a nice job of stretching opponents' Abrupt Decays thin. I found that my hastelords and vials were more likely to survive because they spent the removal on the Copter. Against D&T, it makes SoFI not as much of a knockout punch. You can block the equipped creature and loot, while denying them a card and shock that they'd have normally. It also blanks Mother of Runes, as protection from a color is useless.

    Somewhat improves: Grixis Delver, Eldrazi, Infect, Miracles, other delver variants (dodges terminus if they do it on their draw step, allows you to continue putting pressure on). The biggest downside against a bunch of these decks is that it's a juicy target for them to daze on turn 2. Typically better to wait on it. If only you could Vial it in! Against infect, it blocks Inkmoth, which can be quite relevant

    Neutral/ Slightly Worse: Fast combo, ie Storm or Reanimator, Elves. Marginally better against Reanimator than Storm because a flying blocker is occasionally important to buy a turn. Against storm you just need to try to prison them out with Thalia and Chalice then kill quickly with Piledriver You don't really have time to cast it against Elves, though a flying attacker can be relevant if it becomes a race.

    Significantly Worse: I dunno what it makes that much worse to be honest. Perhaps it's quite bad against the combo decks just in terms of how you are now building your deck to accommodate it (only 1-2 piledrivers in the 75). But if you're on the more MWM, midrange-y build of the deck anyway, I think Copter is pretty strong upgrade.

    I hope you all enjoyed reading my testing results. I know it's kinda dry and not the most organized, but this is what I have. Please ask me any questions you have about Copter or matches I played! I'll try to remember or find replays if possible.

    EDIT: A neat play you can make specifically with Copter that I think is relevant a lot of the time. If you are at the end of your draw step and you know for sure that you will be attacking with Copter, you can port or waste your opponent off of a removal color (typically white for StP). You go to main phase, and either the mana empties or they spend their removal spell on a irrelevant creature. It's a good way of ensuring you get value off the Copter attack. It does require you to have the presence of mind to not go to your main phase though, as you have to crew before declaring attacks.
    Last edited by 1GoblinLackey; 01-15-2017 at 03:37 PM.

  12. #172

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by 1GoblinLackey View Post
    EDIT: A neat play you can make specifically with Copter that I think is relevant a lot of the time. If you are at the end of your draw step and you know for sure that you will be attacking with Copter, you can port or waste your opponent off of a removal color (typically white for StP). You go to main phase, and either the mana empties or they spend their removal spell on a irrelevant creature. It's a good way of ensuring you get value off the Copter attack. It does require you to have the presence of mind to not go to your main phase though, as you have to crew before declaring attacks.
    While true that you must crew before declaring attacks you can still crew after your mainphase in the Beginning of Combat step, before you declare attacks.

    This interaction is often relevant in standard currently because it lets you attack with Cultivator's Caravan by crewing it with Toolcraft Exemplar.

    I guess the suggestion is still relevant in the Goblins thread because it's a reasonable way to disable removal on your upcoming haste lords if you have that many lands in play.

  13. #173

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    While true that you must crew before declaring attacks you can still crew after your mainphase in the Beginning of Combat step, before you declare attacks.

    This interaction is often relevant in standard currently because it lets you attack with Cultivator's Caravan by crewing it with Toolcraft Exemplar.

    I guess the suggestion is still relevant in the Goblins thread because it's a reasonable way to disable removal on your upcoming haste lords if you have that many lands in play.
    Ha! Shows me right for not testing with a rules engine. I initially thought I could port on main phase then crew at the beginning of combat, but someone said that I had to do it before. Thanks for the tip.

  14. #174
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Thanks ScatmanX! It's nice to play some games with Goblins again. I kind of gave up on the deck a couple of years ago when Merfolk fell out of favor (having a guaranteed win was lovely) and combo and Stoneblade became popular. At that time, people were still hating on Goblins and packed Engineered Plagues, Blue Elemental Blasts and Pyroclasm type cards in their sideboard. I played a White Stompy brew for a couple of years, when turn 1 Chalice at 1 was enough to get half to field to scoop. However, now that BUG, Miracles and Sneak and Show are the tier 1 decks, I had a string of poor results with my brew. After a detour on Death and Taxes, I am now back on Goblins which feels solid for the moment. Similar to 1GoblinLackey, I am 15-4 in matches on Cockatrice (that's almost 80%!). Although the level of play and decks on Cockatrice is variable and many people use it as a testing platform, I only managed something like 55% match wins with Death and Taxes.

    I am skeptical of Smugglers Copter. It has no synergy with any of the Goblins, Aether Vial or Cavern of Souls. It dies to every removal spell and makes us super vulnerable to Ancient Grudge. Although it could be nice to filter a bunch of cards away with a reasonable clock to boot, it suffers from the aforementioned problems and does not fix our true problems which are all forms of combo decks (Infect, Elves, Show and Tell, Reanimator, Manaless Dredge, ANT, TES). However, it has been dominating Standard so it must have some merit. Smugglers Copter does seem extremely sweet in the Zombardement deck.

    Anyway, I am switching back to some more Goblin Chieftains and am currently running 3. I traded my Bolts for Mogg Fanatic to increase the strength of Piledriver, Chieftain, Ringleader, Vial and Gempalm Incinerator a little.

    Apart from that, I don't know what to say: Goblins looks to be very well positioned currently and it fills me with joy. Swinging past True Name Nemesis with Goblin Piledriver is just so sweet. I would encourage all the Goblin players that have abandoned the deck over the past few years and are struggling to get a competitive edge in the current meta with their present decks, to dust of Goblins again.
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    @ScatmanX
    I generally agree, I haven't had really any actual issues with it with the exception of my friends Sultai Nic Fit Pod list, but I think there are other factors at work in that match-up.

    @griffinpride and mistercakes
    I couldn't agree with ScatmanX more. Play a bit with a netdeck, and once you know some rules, you are then allowed to bend them. Before that you won't be sure of the consequences of your testing.

    @1goblinlackey
    I took the liberty of taking your listed results and compiling it similar to mine. If you PM me I can give you control of that document directly and you can continue it on your own.

    @Mantis
    I'm not sure if we ever interacted, but welcome back to the archetype! As I'm sure you were expecting many of us to say, I'm not to keen on the lack of haste affects in the main. Let us know how it plays out. I ran a heavy burn build a while back, about a year now, that had 4 bolts, and 2 fanatics and I found that the deck

    If I edit a post without an explanation, I am just correcting typos and / or formatting.
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  16. #176
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard View Post
    (...)
    @Mantis
    I'm not sure if we ever interacted, but welcome back to the archetype! As I'm sure you were expecting many of us to say, I'm not to keen on the lack of haste affects in the main. Let us know how it plays out. I ran a heavy burn build a while back, about a year now, that had 4 bolts, and 2 fanatics and I found that the deck
    That the deck...? Is what? Say it, man! I'm dying to know
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  17. #177
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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard View Post
    @Mantis
    I'm not sure if we ever interacted, but welcome back to the archetype! As I'm sure you were expecting many of us to say, I'm not to keen on the lack of haste affects in the main. Let us know how it plays out. I ran a heavy burn build a while back, about a year now, that had 4 bolts, and 2 fanatics and I found that the deck
    After some testing I did reach the conclusion that I really like 3 or 4 Chieftains and cut the Lightning Bolts to increase the goblin density. Although Fanatic does not have a high powerlevel at all, I like having 3 or 4 given the synergy with the rest of the deck.
    Team R&D

  18. #178

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard View Post

    @1goblinlackey
    I took the liberty of taking your listed results and compiling it similar to mine. If you PM me I can give you control of that document directly and you can continue it on your own.
    Hey Olaf, PM'd you. Just posting for visibility.

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    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Quote Originally Posted by 1GoblinLackey View Post
    Hey Olaf, PM'd you. Just posting for visibility.
    All right, you should have editing rights now. You can officially jam that link I posted to your signature now.

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  20. #180

    Re: [Deck] Vial Goblins

    Okay so I've been pretty unhappy with Goblins for ages, so every time I've been taking the deck out I've been testing something.
    For next weeks Legacy night I'm thinking about including 3x Panharmonicon. The rest of my list is focussed towards ETB triggers obviously.

    Before you all hate on it immediately - yes I know it's too slow to beat combo/storm, but this deck is already there.
    Most of the core Goblin cards we play benefit from this perm substantially, so I thought I'd give it a shot.

    Anyone else try it?

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