Brainstorm
Force of Will
Lion's Eye Diamond
Counterbalance
Sensei's Divining Top
Tarmogoyf
Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Goblin Lackey
Standstill
Natural Order
While this is possibly true, they have in the past tried to ban cards around an issue and leave the issue untouched. It ends up being a farce most of the time. (Gush in place of Mentor, just to see Mentor go soon after.) This is why it was going to be top. You hit one card in place of banning one, then maybe later banning another. You don't have to like it, but that tends to be the rule on these things. Outside of Vintage that is.
Fueling is not something I agree with. Snapcaster is very good at what it does, but it's a single use rebuy, not an issue of itself. Snapcaster is not an enabler, it's shall we say, a junkie, getting its fix off other broken things.
Snapcaster to me is a card that would only get banned if something else is intentionally not being banned. Because Snapcaster is only as broken as that it feeds off, those other cards themselves being the "Issue" in question. Note the quotations, I don't see Snapcaster as an issue.
I think the power of Snapcaster Mage is being downplayed a little bit here. I am convinced Snapcaster is not only better than a 'one time rebuy', it's an actual engine. It's a way to scale up efficient spells into the mid-late game without compromising the power level of those same spells (ie playing something worse to get additional copies.) A card that lets you play up to 8 Brainstorms, 8 Lightning Bolts, 8 Swords to Plowshares, and really just 5+ of any spell. It's an engine, and arguably the best control engine in magic's history (seeing as how it was dominant in Standard, sees widespread play in Modern, and sees widespread play in Legacy.) I am not calling for a ban, but give credit where it's due. Snapcaster mage is a sublime example of incredibly good card design. I wish WOTC would do more cards like this.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Let's say Grixis Control goes on to become the defacto best deck in the format, and remains that way for a while, with Miracles trailing closely behind. Given the trend WotC has set, let's pretend they are looking to ban a card. What card do you ban, if not Snapcaster Mage?
Last edited by Lemnear; 12-14-2018 at 01:10 PM.
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There isn't a PT Legacy event in the scheduled future though, is there?
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Death's Shadow did a hard rise, hard drop (for now) in the format as well. It's great that the PT basically enabled that deck, and it would be great to have others shake it up again in the future. So I think this remark about the PT is incredibly relevant to the discussion on bans.
Regarding the 'head-chopping' mentality, I loathe it as much as Dice_Box. I want more cards like Snapcaster Mage, not fewer.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
@Mr.Safety more cards like SCM would be great *once* they print ETB-value scum hate. Give me Torpor Orb the land and it'll be great. I think we've all seen enough value-derping with Strix, Snapcaster, and company.
Self-interest aside (I play dreads after all), hate like this needs to be printed to allow more space to play creatures like Goyf, Goose, Shadow, etc and more interesting cards like Mangara, KotR, JVP, etc.
I mean, Aaron Forsythe has said that by any metric Brainstorm should be banned. Obviously, Brainstorm will never be banned banned. As far as I’m concerned, until we get to a point where Brainstorm shouldn’t be banned under normal circumstances, then yeah, there are plenty of cards that can feasibly take Brainstorm’s place on the banlist and Snapcaster is absolutely a card that could be banned in the future if certain cards get printed.
I’d be a bit sad if brainstorm gets banned. Like with the banning of top, it makes some janky decks completely unplayable (doomsday et al).
Does anyone have an idea why some of those top of deck tutors are banned (mystical, vampiric...)? They’re good, but are they on the same league as treasure cruise, DTT, survival?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Legacy decks: mono U painter, strawberry shortcake, imperial painter, solidarity, burn
EDH decks: zedruu voltron, rakdos the defiler, persistent petitioners, blind seer
Yes to the tutors, too good.
-rob
I completely disagree; creature-based strategies/interactions keep Legacy from devolving to a format without maindeck removal, where discard and countermagic are the only interactions because the only creatures worth getting onto the battlefield are Griselbrand, Marit Lage, and Emrakul. When combat stops mattering the format will be officially suck-ass bad. Zoo and Rock aren't really viable decks anymore but combat is still incredibly important for most decks.
You want Torpor Orb? Play Torpor Orb! You want a creature that does it? Hushwing Gryff! It even has flash and a 2/1 body attached! Or we could just allow these value-adding creatures to keep the format spicy. Value-derping is literally what Magic was created to be, at least in a large part. Getting it on a land would be ok if it's a Bojuka Bog-type of ability (or honestly, better as a 'sacrifice this land: get Torpor Orb until end of turn) but going back to lands like Karakas, Tabernacle, and Maze of Ith will probably never happen, and probably shouldn't. If we've learned anything from Mental Misstep, Gitaxian Probe, and the delve mechanic getting things for free/way under the going rate is dangerous territory.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
If value-derping is "literally what Magic was created to be"[Citation Needed] then why can't I also try to get some value off my Torpor orb? Right now it's a card that does nothing on it's own, and giving it a body just gives people more ways to kill the do-nothing artifact.
And this is coming from a guy who's been sleeving up torpor-orbs and dreadnoughts for YEARS.
Somewhat offtopic, but doomsday wasn't completely dead after the top ban. Losing probe, though, wasn't a final nail in its coffin, it was a goddamn nuke.
What bothers me about these bans is that they were supposedly meant to dethrone the top decks of the format, giving more decks a chance to shine, but it feels like the weaker decks lost more than the kings, and some of them just went extinct.
All 4 human beings on earth who played Doomsday in 2018 must have taken it pretty hard.
It's a logic result of banning the cards SEVERAL decks played instead of the cards just the top deck plays.
Removing DRS did more harm to non-blue decks like Elves than to Grixis and BUG for examples. Similar applies to Probe and many other cards over the years, who took bullets in place of Ponder/Brainstorm/Fetchlands.
In all honest, even if Brainstorm is a holy cow, it's still absurd to ban Probe instead of Ponder (not arguing for a Ponder ban. You all know that I am convinced chopping random cantrips does jackshit for non-blue decks position in the meta)
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"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
@Mr. Safety my suggestion is not anti-creature, nor does it have anything to do with removal. I merely stated that cards should exist which reduce ETB value creatures to their stat line, such that if you want to play magic that way you know that a deck using good stat lines and/or abilities can just hate you out (until you're willing to play the Wasteland/Port/Blood Moon game).
Very confused by the Zoo comment, as a Torpor Orb land would mostly favor their strategy of Goblin Guide and Wild Nactyl last I checked. Maybe they also played SFM and that's what you're referencing? As I recall Zoo mostly is kept out by Terminus, Strix, and TNN; strats fairly synonymous with SCM, Strix, and SFM. [TKS strats probably not helping Zoo either]
You've also talked about how Grisel/Emmy/Lage would take over and be the only playable creatures - not sure how a Torpor Orb land that's friendly to Goyfs, Goose, and other beefy boy strats helps the former. Also highly doubt that aside from Crop Rot users that we'd see Torpor Orb land in Grisel/Emmy lists.
A land like this honestly seems perfectly fine since it's tap for colorless at best. Release it in a commander set as legacy/vintage/commander have plenty of land killers. Magic is about fundamentally warping the rules for your benefit and to the opponents detriment, not sure why forcing your ETB value opponent to stick to the stat line instead of a rather mindless value orgy is a bad thing. Those creatures are pushing out others, they deserve the hate.
@Fox: using that Torpor Orb land to cast t1 Phyrexian Dreadnought would be very exciting. Perhaps a bit too good, no?
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