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Thread: How Humility Works

  1. #241

    Re: How Humility Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Taurelin View Post
    No, it doesn't.
    Show and Tell puts both permanents onto the battlefield at the same time. This means there is never a moment when Terastodon actually has its abilities, so it can never trigger.
    I am not sure this is right. Can anyone confirm this?

  2. #242

    Re: How Humility Works

    Quote Originally Posted by RexFTW View Post
    I am not sure this is right. Can anyone confirm this?
    If it wasn't right, it would be corrected and/or deleted within a day.
    “It's possible. But it involves... {checks archives} Nature's Revolt, Opalescence, two Unstable Shapeshifters (one of which started as a Doppelganger), a Tide, an animated land, a creature with Fading, a Silver Wyvern, some way to get a creature into play in response to stuff, some way to get a land into play in response to stuff (a different land from the animated land), and one heck of a Rube Goldberg timing diagram.
    -David DeLaney

  3. #243

    Re: How Humility Works

    Since Yixlid Jailer and Humility both apply in Layer 6, if Jailer is played after Humility, is it a 1/1 with no abilities that still manages to make all cards in graveyards lose abilities due to timestamps? That's my understanding of it.

  4. #244
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    Re: How Humility Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Necrogeist View Post
    Since Yixlid Jailer and Humility both apply in Layer 6, if Jailer is played after Humility, is it a 1/1 with no abilities that still manages to make all cards in graveyards lose abilities due to timestamps? That's my understanding of it.
    Yixlid Jailer's effect depends on Humility's effect, because the latter changes the existence of the former. Therefore Humility is applied first, so Yixlid Jailer loses its ability and doesn't do anything.

    613.7a An effect is said to “depend on” another if (a) it’s applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect (see rules 613.1 and 613.3); (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.
    613.7b An effect dependent on one or more other effects waits to apply until just after all of those effects have been applied. If multiple dependent effects would apply simultaneously in this way, they’re applied in timestamp order relative to each other. If several dependent effects form a dependency loop, then this rule is ignored and the effects in the dependency loop are applied in timestamp order.
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  5. #245

    Re: How Humility Works

    What happens when Nature's Revolt and Humility are in play? Would anything be different if Nature's Revolt cam into play first then Humility or vice versa? Thanks in advance.

  6. #246
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    Re: How Humility Works

    All lands are creatures.

    All lands lose all abilities (in particular, they don't produce mana anymore).

    They are
    a) 1/1 if first NR entered the battlefield, then came Humility
    a) 2/2 if first Humility entered the battlefield, then came NR
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  7. #247
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    Re: How Humility Works

    Painter's Servant is in play naming Blue. Opalescence, Humility, a second Opalescence, Enchanted Evening, and Blood Moon are returned to play off a Replenish. What are the super-types, types, p/t, color, and abilities of a Mutavault that was activated before casting Replenish?

    P.S. Except for the second Opalescence, this shit actually happened. We decided the game ended in a draw.

  8. #248
    Timmy-Spike-Melvin . . . . . Level 2 Judge

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    Re: How Humility Works

    First of all, when replenish resolves, that player has to decide the timestamps for the enchantments, which enter the battlefield simultaniously, even though it only matters for Opalescence and Humility.


    This would happen if you have only 1 Opalescence:

    613.1a Layer 1: Copy effects are applied. See rule 706, “Copying Objects.”
    Nothing
    613.1b Layer 2: Control-changing effects are applied.
    Nothing
    613.1c Layer 3: Text-changing effects are applied. See rule 612, “Text-Changing Effects.”
    Nothing
    613.1d Layer 4: Type-changing effects are applied. These include effects that change an object’s
    card type, subtype, and/or supertype.
    Blood Moon, Opalescence, Enchanted Evening, Mutavault
    613.1e Layer 5: Color-changing effects are applied.
    Painters Servant
    613.1f Layer 6: Ability-adding and ability-removing effects are applied.
    Humility
    613.1g Layer 7: Power- and/or toughness-changing effects are applied.
    613.3a Layer 7a: Effects from characteristic-defining abilities are applied. See rule 604.3.
    Nothing
    613.3b Layer 7b: Effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value are applied.
    Opalescence, Humility, Mutavault
    613.3c Layer 7c: Effects that modify power and/or toughness (but don’t set power and/or toughness
    to a specific number or value) are applied.
    Nothing
    613.3d Layer 7d: Power and/or toughness changes from counters are applied. See rule 120.
    Nothing
    613.3e Layer 7e: Effects that switch a creature’s power and toughness are applied. Such effects take
    the value of power and apply it to the creature’s toughness, and take the value of toughness and
    apply it to the creature’s power.
    Nothing

    1,2,3: Nothing happens.
    4: Enchanted Evening and Opalescence are dependant, so at first each permanent becomes an enchantment, then each enchantment becomes a creature, mutavault becomes a creature and all creature types, each nonbasic becomes a mountain. (timestamps are irrelevant)
    5: Painter gives each permanent a color in addition to it's other colors.
    6: Since each Permanent on the battlefield are enchantments and because of that everything except opalescence is a creatures, Humility removes each ability from each non-opalescence permanent. (remind, continuous effects that started to apply in earlier layers will continue to apply)
    7: nothing except for 7b.
    7b: Part of the effects of Humility, Opalescence and Mutavault already started to apply in an earlier layer, it will continue to apply. The activated Mutavault has the earliest Timestamp, so it becomes 2/2. The player who controls Humility and Opalescence choses the Timestamps of these two permanents. So either each (enchantment-creature) permanent becomes first a 1/1 and then everything except opalescence gets p/t equal to its casting cost, or vice versa.

    In the end we got:
    Enchanted Evening: A blue enchantment, creature with no abilities. Either 1/1 or 5/5.
    Opalescence: A blue enchantment with the ability "Each other non-Aura enchantment is a creature with power and toughness each equal to its converted mana cost. It's still an enchantment."
    Blood Moon: A blue enchantment, creature with no abilities. Either 1/1 or 3/3.
    Humility: A blue enchantment, creature with no abilities. Either 1/1 or 4/4.
    Painter's Servant: A blue enchantment, artifact, creature - scarecrow with no abilities. Either 1/1 or 2/2.
    Mutavault: A blue enchantment, creature, (nonbasic) land - mountain with all creature types and no abilities (no mana ability or animating). Either 1/1 or 0/0 (and put into a graveyard, next time state based effects are checked.)


    If you add a second opalescence, both opalescence would become creatures and lose ther ability (after their ability got applied) Dependant on timestamps, each opalescences would be a blue enchantment, creature with no abilities. Either 1/1 or 4/4.
    Last edited by dorsch; 07-13-2010 at 05:34 AM. Reason: Did not see the second Opalescence

  9. #249
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    Re: How Humility Works

    Bravo!

  10. #250
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    Re: How Humility Works

    So I know that control-changing effects are applied before Humility but I was wondering how Preacher would work under it?

  11. #251
    Timmy-Spike-Melvin . . . . . Level 2 Judge

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    Re: How Humility Works

    As long as Humility remains on the battlefield, Preacher has no abilities. So you can not tap it to gain control of another creature and you have to untap it during your untap step which causes you losing control of any creature you stole before.
    But you keep any creatures you took under your control before humility entered the battlefield. (untill you are forced to untap)

  12. #252
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    Re: How Humility Works

    Just noticed this in the Comprehensive Rules:

    700.4a Although the text “[This permanent] is indestructible” is an ability, actually being indestructible is neither an ability nor a characteristic. It’s just something that’s true about a permanent.
    Does that mean that indestructible creatures remain indestructible under Humility?

  13. #253
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    Re: How Humility Works

    Quote Originally Posted by EssKay View Post
    Just noticed this in the Comprehensive Rules:



    Does that mean that indestructible creatures remain indestructible under Humility?
    Nope. It means when something else makes the permanent indestructible under Humility, say Elspeth's ultimate, it will stay indestructible.
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  14. #254
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    Re: How Humility Works

    I play Show and Tell and put a Woodfall Primus into play while my opponent brings a Humility with the same Show and Tell. May I destroy it?

  15. #255
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    Re: How Humility Works

    The cards are put onto the battlefield simultaneously, so there's no point at which Woodfall Primus is on the battlefield and Humility is not, therefore leaving no time in which Primus could trigger.
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  16. #256
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    Re: How Humility Works

    Half the judges in Columbus had no idea what the hell to do when I called them to say, "Can you explain to my opponent why Mishra's Factory is a 2/2 under Humility"

    I thought that knowing how Humility interacts was stage one of being a Judge.
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  17. #257
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    Re: How Humility Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Master Shake View Post
    Half the judges in Columbus had no idea what the hell to do when I called them to say, "Can you explain to my opponent why Mishra's Factory is a 2/2 under Humility"

    I thought that knowing how Humility interacts was stage one of being a Judge.
    It really should be, especially if you expect to be at the Legacy Grand Prix.
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  18. #258
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    Re: How Humility Works

    If I have Humility and Cumber Stone (Creatures your opponents control get -1/-0.) in play, what happens?
    "Just hulk your way there."

    " It's your fault I lost, because YOU didn't have force of will"

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  19. #259
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    Re: How Humility Works

    Humility's "make all creatures 1/1" applies in layer 7b (613.3b Layer 7b: Effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value are applied.) and Cumber Stone applies in layer 7c (613.3c Layer 7c: Effects that modify power and/or toughness (but don’t set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value) are applied.).

    So, your creatures will be 1/1s, and your opponents' creatures will be 0/1s.
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  20. #260
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    Re: How Humility Works

    Quote Originally Posted by heroicraptor View Post
    Humility's "make all creatures 1/1" applies in layer 7b (613.3b Layer 7b: Effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value are applied.) and Cumber Stone applies in layer 7c (613.3c Layer 7c: Effects that modify power and/or toughness (but don’t set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value) are applied.).

    So, your creatures will be 1/1s, and your opponents' creatures will be 0/1s.
    Thank you.
    I was thinking that but did not know.
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