View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #14181

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew View Post
    I said you are trolling, not spamming.
    No dude, you're trolling. Honestly if everyone here thinks about it, if you listen with an open mind we can bring Walls back. We won't just bring walls back, we will bring back such beautiful walls. We will bring back such beautiful walls we're talking Wall of Blossoms becoming walls of garbage. Vote Trump and we will make {U} pay for these walls, and these are beautiful walls.

  2. #14182
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Extra vote for Trump. MtG would be a lot more fun if they gave MaRo's job to him.

  3. #14183

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    By the definition of troll, anyone who goes off-topic is a troll. So you are all trolls.

  4. #14184
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    So we're at 9 votes for returning fascist dictator powers to Wizards, 2 votes for Trump, and zero votes for democracy. Based on these results, LegacyIsAnEternalFormat, it looks like there is no hope for your democracy in the near-future.

    Still, I wouldn't give up hope. Revolutions don't happen in a day. It seems like a good idea to start lobbying Trump to take on your cause - if you do that, you immediately get all of his voters on your side. He might be busy, but surely a man like him can appreciate how oppressive it is to have to play legacy without being able to cast Mind Twist.

  5. #14185

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Is it too late to vote for Trump?
    "We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."

  6. #14186
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Legacy democracy seems bad to me as well. Not sure how you get a better system. I think they should attempt unbans every time until they reach cards that have been banned previously in the last X years. This would allow us to test the format with each card and see if things are settled for said card yet, while also being threatening to get insta-banned a couple months later, maybe keeping prices in check.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.

  7. #14187

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by tescrin View Post
    Legacy democracy seems bad to me as well. Not sure how you get a better system. I think they should attempt unbans every time until they reach cards that have been banned previously in the last X years. This would allow us to test the format with each card and see if things are settled for said card yet, while also being threatening to get insta-banned a couple months later, maybe keeping prices in check.
    Black lotus is banned for a while now. Seems like a better LED. Lets test it and see if te meta can handle it.
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  8. #14188
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by HdH_Cthulhu View Post
    Black lotus is banned for a while now. Seems like a better LED. Lets test it and see if te meta can handle it.
    I realize you're trolling but I mean come on dude... even a you know that an anecdote doesn't prove the rule.
    Do I really have to sit here and list cards that were banned for a decade, taken off the list, and had no impact whatsoever?

    I'll do it, because you're an idiot:
    Quote Originally Posted by http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Timeline_of_DCI_bans_and_restrictions
    Legacy: Mind Over Matter and Replenish are unbanned.
    Legacy: Dream Halls, Entomb, and Metalworker are unbanned.
    Legacy: Grim Monolith and Illusionary Mask are unbanned
    Legacy: Time Spiral is unbanned.
    Legacy: Land Tax is unbanned.
    Legacy: Worldgorger Dragon is unbanned.
    Legacy: Black Vise is unbanned.
    Only one of those cards sees real play in a decks that are occasionally T1: Entomb.
    Most of them didn't even see play the week they were put out.

    I mean seriously dude.. is your intellectualism really this garbage tier?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.

  9. #14189

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I actually think this idea is pretty good. I am all for more unbans in legacy and one of the reasons I was pushing for the banlist voting system was because of how slowly WotC takes off perfectly safe cards from the banlist. This idea would allow cards like SotF, Goblin Recruiter, Mind Twist, and Earthcraft to be tested to see if they are actually as problematic as once thought.

  10. #14190

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by tescrin View Post
    I realize you're trolling but I mean come on dude... even a you know that an anecdote doesn't prove the rule.
    Do I really have to sit here and list cards that were banned for a decade, taken off the list, and had no impact whatsoever?

    I'll do it, because you're an idiot:


    Only one of those cards sees real play in a decks that are occasionally T1: Entomb.
    Most of them didn't even see play the week they were put out.

    I mean seriously dude.. is your intellectualism really this garbage tier?

    You are kinda rude. I was just pointing out that time on the banlist dosnt really say anything at all.
    “Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by HdH_Cthulhu View Post
    You are kinda rude. I was just pointing out that time on the banlist dosnt really say anything at all.
    You could've said that instead of making a blatantly stupid sarcastic post and then getting mad when someone calls you dumb
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  12. #14192
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by tescrin View Post
    I realize you're trolling but I mean come on dude... even a you know that an anecdote doesn't prove the rule.
    Do I really have to sit here and list cards that were banned for a decade, taken off the list, and had no impact whatsoever?

    I'll do it, because you're an idiot:


    Only one of those cards sees real play in a decks that are occasionally T1: Entomb.
    Most of them didn't even see play the week they were put out.

    I mean seriously dude.. is your intellectualism really this garbage tier?
    Dream Halls sees play in Omni-Tell. Which was occasionally T1. Spiral won back-to-back opens the month it was unbanned. Grim and Metalworker made MUD possible. Which obviously isn't T1, but does have a meta impact in various locales.
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  13. #14193

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    I actually think this idea is pretty good. I am all for more unbans in legacy and one of the reasons I was pushing for the banlist voting system was because of how slowly WotC takes off perfectly safe cards from the banlist. This idea would allow cards like SotF, Goblin Recruiter, Mind Twist, and Earthcraft to be tested to see if they are actually as problematic as once thought.
    I don't think that Goblin Recruiter is "problematic" in the sense that Legacy can handle it but it is one of the most logistically annoying cards in the game to resolve. Time will tell if that keeps it on the list or not.
    I'm terrified of Mind Twist but I'm perfectly willing to have it legal to test the waters.
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  14. #14194
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Octopusman View Post
    I don't think that Goblin Recruiter is "problematic" in the sense that Legacy can handle it but it is one of the most logistically annoying cards in the game to resolve. Time will tell if that keeps it on the list or not.
    I'm terrified of Mind Twist but I'm perfectly willing to have it legal to test the waters.
    The deck which would likely look at MindTwist due to the low investment of running/fueling it, is Elves imo, as they are able to destroy opposing hands by turn 2 to 3 without blowing cards for manaacceleration
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    The deck which would likely look at MindTwist due to the low investment of running/fueling it, is Elves imo, as they are able to destroy opposing hands by turn 2 to 3 without blowing cards for manaacceleration
    I'm personally interested in playing Twist alongside Cabal Therapy in the Veteran Explorer decks. You typically have 5 or so mana on the third turn, and your deck is so full of bombs than an opponent with a crippled hand is in a large amount of trouble.
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    Clearly aimed at Modern plebs, not gonna be a pillar of our format.
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar View Post
    I'm personally interested in playing Twist alongside Cabal Therapy in the Veteran Explorer decks. You typically have 5 or so mana on the third turn, and your deck is so full of bombs than an opponent with a crippled hand is in a large amount of trouble.
    That actually sounds erotic.

    #UnbanMindTwist plz.
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  17. #14197

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    So we're at 9 votes for returning fascist dictator powers to Wizards, 2 votes for Trump, and zero votes for democracy.
    Oh how I missed this thread.
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  18. #14198
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Survival of the Fittest doesn't really belong on the banned list in my opinion. There are several factors to consider:

    1. Playing powerful cards is a major part of the appeal of playing the format. Two-mana cards *should* be powerful. At the 2cmc slot we have: Tarmogoyf, Young Pyromancer, Counterbalance, Sylvan Library, Dark Confidant, Hymn to Tourach, Stoneforge Mystic, Thalia, Price of Progress, Reanimate/Exhume, Cabal Ritual/Infernal Tutor, etc.

    2. We have answers to just about every strategy, many of which can be played by *every* deck. There are multiple ways to deal with Survival: Force of Will, Daze, Spell Snare and any other counter spell out there; Pre-emptively it can be discarded by Thoughtseize, IoK, Cabal Therapy and so on; Abrupt Decay (which is even uncounterable), Disenchant, Wear//Tear, Engineered Explosives, and other forms of enchantment removal; Deathrite Shaman, Rest in Peace, Leyline of the Void, Relic of Progenitus, Surgical Extraction, and other forms of Graveyard removal; creature removal is present in every color, and many options can essential wipe the board entirely: Supreme Verdict, Perish, Anger of the Gods, Sudden Demise, Terminus, Toxic Deluge, Submerge, etc. There are also cards that stop the strategy pretty much altogether: Containment Priest, Grafdigger's Cage, Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, etc.

    3. Having more deck archetypes that can compete with other existing strategies is a good thing; variety is the spice of life, and as previously mentioned Survival itself is easily dealt with if it were somehow too "problematic". It's a very different format today than what it was like back when the card got banned.

    4. The best that the deck can even do is *maybe* swing for lethal damage at around turn 5 or so, and that's assuming no resistance from the opponent. Compare that to a deck that casts Show and Tell or Blood Moon on the second turn with the help of fast mana/Sol Lands, or a turn 1 SDT followed by a turn 2 Counterbalance, or perhaps a turn 1 Chalice of the Void set to 1. Unlike say Natural Order or Aluren, the card doesn't even really win on the spot if it *does* resolve.

    5. The advantage of a 'tool box' makes for a fun, interesting deck to play and play against. Certainly more interesting than playing against some strategies, e.g. Miracles or something linear like Burn or dredge. The argument that it being a repeatable tutoring effect doesn't matter when you take into account point number 2 listed above. The restrictions that a Survival deck puts on deck building (i.e 20+ creatures minimum) means that the deck is also going to suffer because it may open with awkward opening hands with dead cards. You also can't expect to see SotF in *every* single opener.

    Unban Survival of the Fittest. It's time for this card to be welcomed back to Legacy.

  19. #14199

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by wcm8 View Post
    Survival of the Fittest doesn't really belong on the banned list in my opinion. There are several factors to consider:

    1. Playing powerful cards is a major part of the appeal of playing the format. Two-mana cards *should* be powerful. At the 2cmc slot we have: Tarmogoyf, Young Pyromancer, Counterbalance, Sylvan Library, Dark Confidant, Hymn to Tourach, Stoneforge Mystic, Thalia, Price of Progress, Reanimate/Exhume, Cabal Ritual/Infernal Tutor, etc.

    2. We have answers to just about every strategy, many of which can be played by *every* deck. There are multiple ways to deal with Survival: Force of Will, Daze, Spell Snare and any other counter spell out there; Pre-emptively it can be discarded by Thoughtseize, IoK, Cabal Therapy and so on; Abrupt Decay (which is even uncounterable), Disenchant, Wear//Tear, Engineered Explosives, and other forms of enchantment removal; Deathrite Shaman, Rest in Peace, Leyline of the Void, Relic of Progenitus, Surgical Extraction, and other forms of Graveyard removal; creature removal is present in every color, and many options can essential wipe the board entirely: Supreme Verdict, Perish, Anger of the Gods, Sudden Demise, Terminus, Toxic Deluge, Submerge, etc. There are also cards that stop the strategy pretty much altogether: Containment Priest, Grafdigger's Cage, Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, etc.

    3. Having more deck archetypes that can compete with other existing strategies is a good thing; variety is the spice of life, and as previously mentioned Survival itself is easily dealt with if it were somehow too "problematic". It's a very different format today than what it was like back when the card got banned.

    4. The best that the deck can even do is *maybe* swing for lethal damage at around turn 5 or so, and that's assuming no resistance from the opponent. Compare that to a deck that casts Show and Tell or Blood Moon on the second turn with the help of fast mana/Sol Lands, or a turn 1 SDT followed by a turn 2 Counterbalance, or perhaps a turn 1 Chalice of the Void set to 1. Unlike say Natural Order or Aluren, the card doesn't even really win on the spot if it *does* resolve.

    5. The advantage of a 'tool box' makes for a fun, interesting deck to play and play against. Certainly more interesting than playing against some strategies, e.g. Miracles or something linear like Burn or dredge. The argument that it being a repeatable tutoring effect doesn't matter when you take into account point number 2 listed above. The restrictions that a Survival deck puts on deck building (i.e 20+ creatures minimum) means that the deck is also going to suffer because it may open with awkward opening hands with dead cards. You also can't expect to see SotF in *every* single opener.

    Unban Survival of the Fittest. It's time for this card to be welcomed back to Legacy.
    I am also for the unbanning of Survival of the Fittest. I think I made a post about it some pages back... But of course it won't happen probably for another 2-3 years... I mean we still have Earthcraft and Mind Twist on the banlist for goodness sake... WotC doesn't care about legacy much at all so they only look at the banlist when something breaks the format. That's why I was calling for a player voting system for banlist changes but nearly everyone else thought that idea was stupid... Some people just don't like change I guess...

  20. #14200
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by wcm8 View Post
    Survival of the Fittest doesn't really belong on the banned list in my opinion. There are several factors to consider:

    1. Playing powerful cards is a major part of the appeal of playing the format. Two-mana cards *should* be powerful. At the 2cmc slot we have: Tarmogoyf, Young Pyromancer, Counterbalance, Sylvan Library, Dark Confidant, Hymn to Tourach, Stoneforge Mystic, Thalia, Price of Progress, Reanimate/Exhume, Cabal Ritual/Infernal Tutor, etc.

    2. We have answers to just about every strategy, many of which can be played by *every* deck. There are multiple ways to deal with Survival: Force of Will, Daze, Spell Snare and any other counter spell out there; Pre-emptively it can be discarded by Thoughtseize, IoK, Cabal Therapy and so on; Abrupt Decay (which is even uncounterable), Disenchant, Wear//Tear, Engineered Explosives, and other forms of enchantment removal; Deathrite Shaman, Rest in Peace, Leyline of the Void, Relic of Progenitus, Surgical Extraction, and other forms of Graveyard removal; creature removal is present in every color, and many options can essential wipe the board entirely: Supreme Verdict, Perish, Anger of the Gods, Sudden Demise, Terminus, Toxic Deluge, Submerge, etc. There are also cards that stop the strategy pretty much altogether: Containment Priest, Grafdigger's Cage, Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, etc.

    3. Having more deck archetypes that can compete with other existing strategies is a good thing; variety is the spice of life, and as previously mentioned Survival itself is easily dealt with if it were somehow too "problematic". It's a very different format today than what it was like back when the card got banned.

    4. The best that the deck can even do is *maybe* swing for lethal damage at around turn 5 or so, and that's assuming no resistance from the opponent. Compare that to a deck that casts Show and Tell or Blood Moon on the second turn with the help of fast mana/Sol Lands, or a turn 1 SDT followed by a turn 2 Counterbalance, or perhaps a turn 1 Chalice of the Void set to 1. Unlike say Natural Order or Aluren, the card doesn't even really win on the spot if it *does* resolve.

    5. The advantage of a 'tool box' makes for a fun, interesting deck to play and play against. Certainly more interesting than playing against some strategies, e.g. Miracles or something linear like Burn or dredge. The argument that it being a repeatable tutoring effect doesn't matter when you take into account point number 2 listed above. The restrictions that a Survival deck puts on deck building (i.e 20+ creatures minimum) means that the deck is also going to suffer because it may open with awkward opening hands with dead cards. You also can't expect to see SotF in *every* single opener.

    Unban Survival of the Fittest. It's time for this card to be welcomed back to Legacy.
    I love Survival of the Fittest, but the card only gets better with time. It will never be unbanned.

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