UPDATE (11/12/2009): I have written an entirely updated primer with a whole new list, and discussion of other lists. It is available in PDF format at http://freepdfhosting.com/779b4c8aaa.pdf
Please be warned that it's long--42 pages--but that you hardly need to read it all. Just use the "find" function to get where you want to go. For the current list, either click the link in the last update, or scroll down just below it.
UPDATE (10/12/2009): Latest list available here. Please bear with me until the new primer is up. It's done, but 41 pages long--so I'm trying to find the best way to post it. Alternately, the newest list is posted just below, before the start of the old primer.
Lands (18)
3 Tropical Island
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Wasteland
Creatures (15)
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Shriekmaw or Fleshbag Marauder
1 Genesis
1 Gigapede
1 Eternal Witness
Spells (28)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Intuition
3 Daze
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Snuff Out
3 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Raven's Crime
1 Life from the Loam
Sideboard (15)
3 Engineered Plague
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Hydroblast
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Blue Elemental Blast
OLD PRIMER:
This thing is so long that, unfortunately, I had to break it up into a few posts to get it up here. My apologies.
First things first: A great many thanks are in order for everyone who helped to make this deck into what it is today. I won’t name you all, but you know who you are, and without people like you to pick this deck up and run with it, there’s not much a guy like me can do. Thanks are also in order to Hanni for his help with this primer; this primer is very much a joint effort between us, but due to a rather busy schedule on his end, I’ve taken over the final editing and posting.
Finally, thank you for your patience--this primer has been necessary for some time now, and it’s been in the works for almost as long. I can say with certainty, however, that its quality is much improved for the wait, and it’s much more relevant to today’s metagame.
Also, it’s very long. For your ctrl+f convenience, here are the main headings:
1.) Deck History
2.) Decklists
-Goaswerfraiejen
-Hanni
3.) Deck Description
4.) Card Choices & Notable Exclusions
-The Manabase
-The Creatures
-The Spells
-The Sideboard
-Notable Exclusions
5.) Playing the Deck
-The Basics
-Using Intuition
-Post-Intuition
-The Element of Surprise
-Opening Hands
-Sample Hands and Analysis
-What to take away from these sample hands
-Dealing with Hate
6.) Matchup Analysis
7.) Results
-Alex Mack
-Michael Redford
-Anonymous
8.) Developmental Opportunities/Customizability
-UGR Intuition-Thresh
-UGR Late-Thresh
9.) Conclusion
1.) Deck History
We should begin by noting that Hanni has been working on a very similar deck concept since 2006 under the name of Aggro Dredge-A-Tog (DAT). Back then, he ran Wild Mongrel rather than Tarmogoyf (since it hadn’t yet been printed); it acted as a solid deterrent (trumping Werebears, particularly if you pitched Genesis/Wonder), and worked well with the excess lands generated by Loam. Obviously, by today’s standards, Mongrel is far less interesting, although my own early attempts made adequate use of the card. Since then, however, the deck has undertaken a fundamentally different direction that makes Mongrel a little less desirable.
Hanni’s deck also contained cantrips, countermagic/discard, and, most importantly, Intuition. Loam/Coliseum and Genesis/Wonder were also present, as well as Pernicious Deed. The basic concept was an aggro/control feel like Threshold combined with a (board) control feel like Landstill. Hanni has always been a huge fan of that sort of hybridization, and believes that it represents the obvious evolution of the format. The deck was shelved for quite some time due to rocky piloting, lack of a following, and the development of UWb Fish. And then, all of a sudden, Tarmogoyf was printed.
When Tarmogoyf was printed in April 2007, I quickly thought to make use of him in UGb Threshold (which was virtually nonexistent at the time), and began working on developing that concept. It quickly became apparent, however, that I was opting for a rather different direction from everyone else who was trying to develop UGb Threshold, so I created a new thread for the deck. If you want to trace the evolution of the deck, the links are available at the very beginning of the last thread. Anyway, at that point, Hanni thought to revive Aggro DAT and so he started plugging into the new thread. The deck has gone through significant developmental changes since the start of even that last thread, and so the need for a new primer has become rather pressing.
Hanni has been a huge proponent of the deck, calling it the natural evolution of both Threshold and the format in general. Sadly, he and I lack the credibility of players like the Hatfields, David Gearhart, and company, and so it has proven difficult to garner the kind of attention that we feel the deck deserves. This deck has never really taken off in serious numbers, which is upsetting. Recently, the format has seen a number of Intuition/Loam decks pop up, but they have tended to lack focus and development. This thread, then, hopes to prove a comprehensive resource for just such development.
More recently, David Gearhart has designed a deck called It’s the Fear (ITF), which is an excellent control deck that shares a number of similarities with UGB Intuition-Thresh. ITF is built further down the spectrum towards control, acting more like Landstill, but still incorporates a few Threshold elements. Which deck is better is therefore a metagame-dependent question, although we obviously prefer being closer to Threshold overall. ITF simply feels too slow for us. We also prefer the actual card-advantage that this deck generates over the virtual card-advantage generated by ITF.
Regardless, it is difficult to understand why this deck hasn’t been given much attention at all over the last few years. It’s rather puzzling. Hopefully this primer will change that a little.
2.) Decklists
Goaswerfraiejen:
Lands (18)
3 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland
Creatures (16)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Shriekmaw
1 Wonder
1 Genesis
1 Gigapede
1 Eternal Witness
1 Stinkweed Imp
Spells (26)
3 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Raven's Crime
Sideboard (15)
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
3 Crime/Punishment
1 Worm Harvest / Gaea’s Blessing (open metagame slot)
Hanni:
Lands (19)
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland
Creatures (14)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Gigapede
3 Shriekmaw
1 Wonder
1 Genesis
Spells (27)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
3 Pernicious Deed
Sideboard (15)
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Duress
4 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Stinkweed Imp
Last edited by Goaswerfraiejen; 12-12-2009 at 01:00 PM. Reason: Posting problems. Bear with me.
3.) Deck Description
The deck often plays out like U/G/b Threshold. Between the seven 1cc cantrips, Mongoose, ‘Goyf, FoW, Daze, Thoughtseize, and Shriekmaw (instead of Smother), a lot of games are won just playing the Threshold gameplan.
But the deck isn’t just Threshold; instead of running Counter-Top (and sometimes Dark Confidant), it runs Intuition (+ engines) and Deed. Hence the name: Intuition-Thresh.
The biggest gripe that we’ve always had against Counter-Top (and by no means are we saying that the Counter-Top lock isn’t extremely good) is that often it doesn’t bring you back when you’re behind; Deed, however, does. Now, you can run Deed alongside Counterbalance like ITF does, but we don’t like the lack of synergy between the two cards and don’t feel that Counterbalance is even necessary in this deck with all of the recursion and card-advantage that it already generates. Threshold uses Counter-Top as a mid-late-game engine to win the game by locking the opponent out (and we don’t mean that it can’t assemble it early); Threshold therefore relies on Counter-Top to out-advantage the opponent if the game goes to the middle or late stages. This deck, on the other hand, uses recursion, Deed, and other card-advantage engines instead to gain the same kind of advantage(s) while putting considerable pressure on the opponent.
With Intuition (+ engines) and Deed, the deck can easily shift from playing an aggro/control gameplan to a control gameplan. The deck now has the ability to wipe the entire board clean (sans lands or planeswalkers) with Deed. It also has the ability to recur powerful tools to gain control over the game, which is set up (most of the time) by Intuition. Life from the Loam ensures the deck can make land drops every turn (and does so by providing card-advantage, 1G for +2 CA--more than that if you’ve developed your position enough to use your graveyard as a resource). Loam/Wasteland can sometimes end games (or lock the opponent out), and Genesis provides card-advantage as well, giving the deck recurring beaters and recurring removal (with Shriekmaw). Gigapede is an alternate win condition that can recur himself and is almost impossible to answer.
The most common 1st Intuition pile to grab is Loam/Coliseum/Genesis. Loam grants consistent land drops, Coliseum gets Genesis in the bin (and can be used as a draw engine later if necessary), and Genesis can start recurring creatures. If a Wasteland lock has the potential to win the game (e.g. against Landstill), it’s sometimes worth grabbing Loam/Wasteland/Raven’s Crime or Loam/Wasteland/Gigapede. If flying critters will win you the game, a Wonder-pile is what you want to grab: either Loam/Gigapede/Wonder, Genesis/Wonder/Gigapede, or Loam/Raven’s Crime/Wonder--we’ll discuss Intuition piles later, but they’re obviously going to be extremely dependent on the current game state. The second Intuition that you cast, should you have the opportunity to do so (or need to), should grab remaining toolbox cards that can be used in conjunction with recursion, such as Shriekmaw--in other words, whatever is not currently available.
Playing 3+cc spells like Intuition, Deed, and Gigapede generally pushes this deck out of consistent Counterbalance range. Deed is especially strong at destroying opposing Counterbalances, since it not only can be played through Counterbalance, but it also removes any creatures (‘Goyfs!) that the opponent has in play. As far as Threshold variants are concerned, this represents a serious threat to their already meagre resources.
There is so much synergy within the deck itself that it’s insane. The deck can mould itself to almost any situation and has the tools, between maindeck and sideboard, to answer just about any situation. Its fast Threshold-esque gameplan gives it the speed to keep up with (and disrupt) fast decks, especially combo. Its slow and controlling gameplan gives it the ability to box in and out-advantage slower aggro decks, other aggro/control decks, and even other control decks, and allows the deck to transition very well from the early to the late game. This hybridization allows it to switch roles when necessary to unbalance the opponent and dominate the game.
Finally, unlike ITF, we have chosen not to splash white as a fourth colour for Swords to Plowshares because we don’t feel that bastardizing the manabase is worth it at all, especially considering that Shriekmaw is the superior (and entirely adequate) removal option for this deck.
NOTES:
I can guarantee that such situations will come up, and they can really decide the game.Originally Posted by A recent rules article on MTGSalvation:
4.) Card Choices & Notable Exclusions
The Manabase
The deck runs a land-base similar to Threshold’s. If you look to Hanni’s list, you’ll see a much closer correspondence: 8 fetchlands, 5 nonbasics, and 4 basics. Regardless of your configuration, you probably don’t want to stray too far, for fear of opening yourself even more to hate. Coliseum and Wasteland are included to complement Life from the Loam.
Cephalid Coliseum functions as a discard outlet for Genesis/Wonder, can be used as a draw engine with Loam, and also fills the graveyard up (which can be beneficial to the deck). Coliseum does not need to be used every turn; it doesn’t even need to be used at all after discarding Genesis/Wonder, so be careful. It can sometimes be good to use it with Loam as a draw engine but make sure that you have enough lands in play before wasting land drops.
Wasteland is in here solely for the occasional Waste-locks with Loam that win the game outright, as well as targeted assaults on recursion engines (Academy Ruins, Volrath’s Stronghold, etc.) and manlands (Mishra’s Factory, Mutavault, etc.). Waste-locks are (obviously) especially strong against multi-coloured control decks. 18-19 lands (erring on the side of 19 is ideal) seems like the perfect number in testing for this deck’s curve; Loam enables the deck to consistently hit land drops after the third turn once the engines are online.
The Creatures
Nimble Mongoose and Tarmogoyf: These are the core aggro package and function the same as they would in normal Threshold. They improve the early game by allowing the deck to be aggressive against some decks (like combo) and defensive against other decks (like fast aggro). Later on, their low curves work really well with Genesis recursion. Mongoose being immune to most removal makes it an excellent candidate for Genesis recursion.
Gigapede: This guy acts as a finisher the same way that Mystic Enforcer does in Threshold, but is only needed as a one-of because of Intuition. Gigapede is nearly impossible to answer, and therein lies its value: it recurs itself (giving the deck some resilience to Extirpate on Genesis), can be used to discard Genesis or Wonder, is untargetable, cannot be blown up by EE (unless the opponent has access to all 5 colours), is really high up for Deed range, and is large at 6/1 (usually trades with ‘Goyfs). Yes, it can be chump-blocked by Mogg Fanatic--that criticism has been made before, but is, in fact, irrelevant because we run Wonder to give it--and everything else--the ability to fly overhead. Barring a large number of chump blockers, Gigapede’s recursion means that it will eventually punch through. Finally, Gigapede almost always powers through Counterbalance (Force of Will and Shriekmaw are the only 5cc cards that I can think of that might see play in decks with Counterbalance), and these characteristics combine to make it strong against other control decks.
Shriekmaw: Phenomenal removal. 2cc is the same as other typical black removal: it removes Goyfs (which is the biggest target for the removal), and (like Gigapede) almost always powers through an opposing Counterbalance. The main reason to run at least one Shriekmaw is the ability to recur it with Genesis, wiping out an opponent’s army step by step. This is, in fact, the main reason to run Shriekmaw as the deck’s primary removal option. You want more than one so that you need not be afraid of hardcasting one at some point in time. In this way, Shriekmaw can be a source of card-advantage similar to Flametongue Kavu in its heyday: for five mana, you destroy an opponent’s creature and get a 3/2 with evasion. The only creatures that Shriekmaw cannot answer are black creatures, and this deck seldom needs to worry much about those because it also has Deed, and opposing Dark Confidants quickly prove suicidal. Tombstalker is the major exception to this rule, and a difficult threat for the deck to deal with pre-board short of blocking with something that flies or tossing out Stinkweed Imp.
Stinkweed Imp: The lone Stinkweed Imp answers what Deed, Crime/Punishment, and Shriekmaw can’t: Tombstalker. Although Tombstalker is the main reason for its inclusion, it can be used for just about any matchup. It is recurrable removal without Genesis, and can answer both black and artifact creatures. Its recursion comes from Dredge, which is actually a bonus for this deck, so it is a very strong candidate for a single slot, either in the main deck or the sideboard.
Genesis: The core recursion card used by the deck. Once in the graveyard, it provides card-advantage every turn and allows the deck to do nasty things. It makes Deed that much stronger and the board advantage it creates after just several turns is huge. Genesis recursion is extremely hard for many decks to answer game one. In this deck, we feel that the card advantage (and ability to hardcast it past a Counterbalance) combine to make Genesis a superior option (for us) to Volrath’s Stronghold.
Wonder: Gives the deck flying, which can be invaluable in many matchups. Wonder easily breaks things like Goyf stalemates, getting Mongooses over larger guys, and getting Gigapede over chump-blockers like Mogg Fanatic. Overall, we see no reason not to include it.
The Spells
Brainstorm and Ponder: Seven cantrips give the deck increased consistency, whether it be early mana stabilization, digging for relevant cards (like Intuition), or fuelling the Threshold gameplan (cards in the graveyard, filtering useless cards for useful ones). There is absolutely no reason not to run them in here. Additional cantrips are unnecessary because Intuition + engines take their place. I have chosen to sacrifice a fourth Brainstorm for two reasons: first, because I have opted to run Eternal Witness, and second, because Brainstorm is more expendable than Ponder (Ponder’s shuffling ability is crucial, especially for early land drops). It’s a controversial move, but it doesn’t really pose any problems for the deck—and, obviously, it’s hardly a necessity. If you’re more comfortable with a redundant cantrip than Eternal Witness’ card-advantage (and late-game recursion), that’s fine too.
Intuition: The core of the deck outside of the Threshold gameplan, Intuition enables the deck’s engines to come online, allowing the player to either pursue a more aggressive gameplan or shift into control mode. It enables consistent land drops via Loam, card-advantage via Loam and Genesis, and so on. Essentially, it provides a quick response to just about any situation.
Life from the Loam: Another of the deck’s engines, albeit a secondary one. It enables consistent land drops every turn whilst creating card-advantage (since the deck uses the graveyard as a toolbox as much as anything else). The ability to recur Wasteland is nasty against some decks, while Cephalid Coliseum is a strong draw engine for the late-game. There is no reason to not run Loam (as a 1-of) in a deck running Intuition.
Daze: Since this is an aggro/control deck rather than slower control, Daze is a lot better for us than Counterspell. The deck needs the seven counterspells in order to dominate the early game, and to compete against combo. Nevertheless, this is one of the weaker slots in the deck, and I wouldn’t mind an alternative of some sort.
Thoughtseize: Thoughtseize is extremely strong at what it does. 1cc proactive spot removal for any non-land card is obviously extremely efficient; it answers anything problematic from Tarmogoyf to Humility. The ability to see the opponent’s hand is invaluable, especially in a large tournament setting. The -2 life loss is going to be irrelevant for the most part; nevertheless, I have chosen to run only three because the card becomes much less useful in the late game, and that life loss likewise starts to add up. I’ve replaced the fourth copy with a single Raven’s Crime, whose utility is described below.
Pernicious Deed: In this deck, Deed’s power level is increased with the inclusion of Genesis and Gigapede which grant you sickening inevitability. Pernicious Deed itself is easily one of the strongest cards in the format; that much goes without saying. As mentioned before, it can easily bring the game back from behind, particularly in conjunction with Genesis and Gigapede. The ability to answer basically everything after it’s already resolved (proactively rather than reactively—counterspells are great, but you have to have them in your hand at the appropriate time, making them much more conditional) is nutty, and the ability to come back from behind by wiping the board clear is very powerful. The fact this deck can wipe the board clean with Deed and then recur creatures immediately makes for amazing synergy, and terrifying inevitability.
Raven’s Crime: Raven’s Crime is here largely because it makes for a strong Intuition pile against control (Loam/Wasteland/Raven’s Crime), and because it’s a stronger disruption option than Thoughtseize in the late game (in large part due to its recursion).
The Sideboard
Before I begin with the sideboard, I’d like to say that this is my own personal sideboard and that the sideboards are going to differ based on player and metagame.
Blue Elemental Blast: This is a recent addition for us both. I haven't had significant issues with Goblins or Dragon Stompy, but the Blue Elemental Blasts improve those matchups as well as Burn and Sligh. The ability to also hit decks like TES and Belcher is just an additional bonus.
Krosan Grip answers problematic artifacts/enchantments, like Counterbalance, and cannot be responded to. If Extirpate isn’t already an example of how strong Split Second is, Grip proves it.
Crime/Punishment: This card comes in as additional removal and answers a number of problems. From Goblin and Zombie tokens to Counterbalances and Tarmogoyfs, it can answer. It has problems against higher casting costs, but the deck has other cards to handle stuff like that. The main reasons why I run this over Engineered Explosives are that 1.) It has a higher overall range of targets, and 2.) It is not susceptible to Stifle-effects, making it a good replacement for Deed, and finally 3.) It’s less susceptible to Counterbalance.
Extirpate: This card’s primary use is against other Loam-based decks, obviously. The card has nice synergy with the deck’s other elements, particularly when it comes to increasing our removal options and allowing us to conserve some Deeds/Shriekmaws. It’s also proven useful against recurring Factories (à la Landstill), Burn decks, and decks with few win conditions in general. While it’s not as strong as Crypt as graveyard hate, it also performs a useful function in that department. If you encounter fewer Loam-based decks in your metagame, however, it may be worth replacing with something else. Likewise, Tormod’s Crypt is obviously a better choice if you’re going to be facing Ichorid.
Worm Harvest: This card is primarily a foil against Humility, which can otherwise prove slightly troublesome. Hardly a necessary slot, but an important one in my metagame.
Notable Exclusions:
Darkblast: Good card, but just not really relevant enough in the format to run as removal. I can see justifying it as a one-of to hit weenies (Goblins!) and Confidants, but it’s really hard to justify it in the larger quantities necessary to make it relevant against those cards. It also doesn’t really address problems like Tombstalker.
[b]Dark Confidant:[/i] It’s a virtually useless beater, and we already have good sources of card advantage. Plus, with mana costs ranging from three to five, the life loss would just be too significant.
Volrath’s Stronghold: This is a decent replacement for Genesis, but in this deck Genesis generates greater card advantage, and can be hardcast if necessary. Yes, Stronghold is slightly stronger against grave-hate, but let’s be fair: your only consistent way of getting it out will be through Intuition-Loam, and that makes you just as vulnerable to graveyard hate. Plus, colourless mana isn’t ideal in this deck anyway. It’s a different kind of vulnerability, but we feel that Genesis is generally a better choice for us overall. It’s also worth noting that Stronghold is vulnerable to Pithing Needle (although that’s a little less relevant today than it was even a year ago), and that you seldom have three mana open at the end of your turn, at least early on. Paying it in your upkeep sucks, but it doesn’t cost you a draw (like a land draw), and it leaves you the option to Dredge your draw. Come to think of it, I should edit that last one into the Primer.
Counterbalance: Different gameplan altogether. It also lacks synergy with Deed.
Psychatog: Great card, but the other creatures in here are already threatening enough on their own. Besides which, Psychatog requires a large commitment to swing for the win; otherwise, swinging for a piddly one doesn’t cut it.
Tombstalker: It might be worth running a few of these, but the creatures are threatening enough as is. Besides, it’s not very synergistic with the current creature base, meaning it would have to be redone completely. It might be interesting to pursue, Team America (see below for a link)-style, however.
Academy Ruins: Too cutesy and win-more. Mana issues also make it a prohibitive choice.
Lonely Sandbar/cycle lands: Not useful enough. Besides which, they create mana problems.
Last edited by Goaswerfraiejen; 10-22-2008 at 10:50 PM.
5.) Playing the deck:
The Basics
The deck is not a difficult one to pick up if you’re familiar with the format, especially with Threshold. Generally, the early game should be played Threshold-style, with priority going to cantrips and early threats. If your hand is more controlling, however, there is no problem going that route early on before switching gears. But let’s begin at the beginning.
The deck’s main difference from Threshold stems from its late-game plan, and its use of the graveyard. Current builds of threshold attempt to control the late-game through permission-tactics (Counterbalance-lock) and card-advantage from Sensei’s Divining Top. This element is noticeably lacking in Inuition-Thresh: instead, we attempt to use faster card-advantage engines (I’m referring here to Loam, Intuition, and Coliseum) in order to better manipulate our resources (particularly the graveyard) and force a win through sheer inevitability. Countering everything your opponent casts is conceivable, and clearly it works well (see Threshold’s success, as well as ITF’s); this is a reactive control plan, however. Intuition-Thresh, on the other hand, attempts to force the opponent into the reactive role by applying unrelenting pressure through recursion and pro-active “counterspells” (i.e. a sweeper like Deed). Due to a relatively high curve, the deck succeeds in evading opposing Counterbalances, and thus can apply the same gameplan in such situations. Why sit back and look for threats that are few and far between when you could just keep casting threats over and over again each turn? Such is the deck’s attitude towards the game.
Using Intuition
Once you have the ability to cast Intuition, the game changes tone fundamentally. Until you get an Intuition, you can be content to play Threshold-style and run your more frequent threats into your opponent aggro-style. Once you can cast Intuition, however, it becomes necessary for you to address the game-state past, present, and future: what deck is your opponent playing, how are his next few turns likely to play out, and what can you grab to overwhelm him now while setting yourself up for a strong control position should something go wrong/death not come as quickly as it’s desired? These are the sorts of assessments that need to be made. This means that your Intuition piles are going to be very fluid, and there’s no formulaic pile that we can give you that you can apply without regard for the game state.
Our first pile tends to consist of Loam/Coliseum/Genesis. This is a very strong first pile, and useful at just about any stage of the game. What should be noted so that you can tailor your own Intuition piles is how it fulfills a number of different roles:
1.) It sets up your mid- and late-games by giving Genesis-based recursion and card-advantage, as well as the ability to draw three a turn when necessary.
2.) Defensively, it helps to protect you from attacks on your manabase (thanks to Loam, obviously).
3.) You can immediately begin recurring your creatures (a dead Mongoose, for example, or a countered Tarmogoyf), thus forcing your opponent into a reactive backpedal in an attempt to deal with the renewed onslaught.
4.) You gain the ability to dredge Loam early on, thus filling your graveyard with the toolbox answers and threats you’ll be needing.
The most important thing about this kind of pile--obviously--is that you get what you want and need regardless of what the opponent chooses. Other such piles include Gigapede/Wonder/Genesis, triple-FoW or Deed, or two of a card and Eternal Witness (depending on your build), etc. You generally want to grab piles with (at worst) a next-turn return of some sort, preferably one whose effect will over the course of the game will prove cumulatively beneficial.
With one Raven’s Crime, our Intuition pile options become still more diversified: a particularly vulnerable opponent might mean that Loam/Wasteland/Raven’s Crime is the best available choice. If your opponent has slow mana development for one reason or another--bad hand, bad manabase, bad luck, etc.--then this is the pile that you want the most, since it will allow you to lock him out with ease. You might have no business winning that game, but this pile will allow you to exacerbate what is, for your opponent, an already less-than-ideal situation.
Alternately, if you have an incarnation in your hand that needs to get discarded, you could (for example) grab Raven’s Crime/Life from the Loam/Eternal Witness (or whatever else--Wasteland, possibly, or Coliseum) to both ensure that you can discard the incarnation, and have late-game returns via Witness recursion, or even dredging into your second incarnation complete with Coliseum-draws on demand.
The reality is that there can be no standard pile that we can tell you to grab, because what’s in your hand and the game state are going to generate too many unique situations to account for. Generally, however, it’s safe to say that your first pile will (usually) want to set up Genesis recursion in some way. Whether you choose the Gigapede, Raven’s Crime, or Coliseum routes to achieve that is entirely up to you, and the peculiarities of the situation in which you find yourself.
Post-Intuition
From there on in, playing the deck should be fairly self-evident; clear the board with recurring removal, beat down with large and often flying critters, etc. In the late-game, you can start recurring Cephalid Coliseum to cycle through answers and threats as quickly as possible. Because you’re dredging Loam, you gain graveyard card-advantage (that is to say, you gain recursion options, maybe even put a Wonder into the pile) while drawing a further three (or dredging three [or five, with Stinkweed Imp] more and drawing two, if you’re looking for Wonder for example) cards; massive card-advantage, and usually more than enough to get what you need.
The Element of Surprise
One of the biggest advantages of playing a hybrid deck is that you can masquerade as one of the hybridized decks until it suits you to do otherwise. In this case, pretending to be a Threshold deck is an enormous advantage, particularly in the first game. Often, for example, an opponent will chump block a 1/1 Mongoose (or trade with any other creature) with his or her own Mongoose, Dark Confidant, early Nantuko Shade, etc., thinking that your resources are as limited as Threshold’s. Alternately, an early Engineered Explosives will be used to trade with a Tarmogoyf, Mongoose, or something of the sort, or a Force of Will will be used up--the point is simply that you can trick your opponent into wasting reactive resources. While these might be proper plays against Threshold’s limited resources, you have the advantage of running more threats than Threshold and being able to recur them. You can generate massive card-advantage in this way, since it will take some time for your opponent to catch on.
Usually, this element of surprise will wear off in time to allow your opponent to plan properly for the second game. Keep this in mind, and try to keep your opponent off-balance; don’t go for win-more options. For example, if you can, keep Gigapede back in game one so that he can come out as a panic-inducing surprise in the second. The same goes for Wonder.
The other deck that you can masquerade as is It’s the Fear; this is ideal for slower opening hands, and has the advantage of masking your superior threat density, which can then catch your opponent off-guard and force some major backpedalling.
Opening Hands
This deck is fairly mana-hungry, and so you will generally want to keep hands with at least two lands. Whatever else ends up in your hand isn’t all that important, since you have a number of different strategies to choose from and all the tools necessary to find what you need; slow hands are perfectly workable, although I personally prefer a hand with some early pressure (a Mongoose or Tarmogoyf or two). One-land hands can be kept when accompanied by cantrips (Ponder being preferable to Brainstorm due to its shuffling ability), but I generally opt to mulligan unless I know what I’m playing against, and know that frequent land destruction is unlikely. I just wouldn’t advise risking it unless you’ve already mulliganed a few times.
Land-light hands should aim to cast Ponder before Brainstorm because the ability to shuffle into lands (if necessary) is crucial when it comes to preventing mana difficulties. Likewise, if playing against an unknown deck, it’s often safer to just fetch a basic land first, and then nab some sort of dual land to complement it (e.x. fetch a Forest, then an Underground Sea). Forests are obviously most important early on; Islands lose their importance as the game goes on, while Swamps gain in value since your control elements are primarily based upon them.
Sample Hands and Analysis
Before I start with the sample hands, a quick note on the process used to obtain them is necessary. First, I am using Magic Workstation (my apologies for this; I just moved into a new apartment in a new province, and forgot to bring my Magic cards with me). As we know, algorithm-generated “shuffles” aren’t really random, properly speaking.
Nevertheless, they’re pretty representative, and certainly suffice for this exercise, whose sole point is to demonstrate how certain opening situations play out, when to mulligan, etc. I am using my (Goaswerfraiejen’s) current version of the deck. Also, please note that this section is meant primarily to help to familiarize players currently unfamiliar with the deck, format, Magic in general, etc. with this particular deck’s early workings. That means that I won’t be saying anything particularly insightful for the rest of you.
Hand 1: Swamp, Swamp, Underground Sea, Ponder, Intuition, Force of Will, Gigapede
Verdict: Not ideal, but entirely workable. I’d keep against most decks, unless speed is an issue.
Turn 1: Assuming that I play first (thus delving one card less), opening with Ponder yields Force of Will, Brainstorm, and Windswept Heath. Perfect. I would put the Force on the bottom, the Heath on top, and draw the Brainstorm. If necessary, then, I can sacrifice Brainstorm to the Force already in my hand and thereby save the Intuition. Alternately, I can cast it with the Sea after drawing the Heath and cracking it for a Forest.
Turn 2: Draw Heath. Play it, crack it for a Forest (with two basics already in hand, Forest is the safest thing to fetch against an unknown deck). Play the Brainstorm, draw Shriekmaw, Intuition, Brainstorm. Put Gigapede back on top (so that it can be fetched with Intuition if necessary), followed by one Intuition (keeping it safe from discard).
Turn 3: Draw Intuition, play Swamp, and either cast Intuition right away, wait until the end of your opponent’s next turn, or use Shriekmaw on some critter (Tarmogoyf?). At this point, it all depends on the game-state.
Hand 2: Windswept Heath, Tropical Island, Nimble Mongoose, Tarmogoyf, Shriekmaw Genesis, Pernicious Deed
Verdict: Awesome hand; definitely a keeper!
Turn 1: Tropical Island, followed by Nimble Mongoose. Better to save the Heath for when you have a marginally better idea of what your opponent is playing.
Turn 2: Draw Intuition. Play Heath, crack it for a Bayou, and play Tarmogoyf (at least a 1/2). Swing for 1 with the Mongoose.
Turn 3: Draw Nimble Mongoose. At this point, you need to hit a land soon. Either Shriekmaw an opposing Tarmogoyf and grow your own, or play the Mongoose and swing for 2. Since we’re goldfishing, we’ll do the latter.
Turn 4: Draw Deed. Unfortunately, the next land (Wasteland) is preceded by Wonder and another Tarmogoyf. You should be able to hold out until then with your creatures, but it’s a very bad situation for you. In this scenario, I’d Intuition for Life from the Loam, Cephalid Coliseum, and either another land (probably a basic Island or Swamp) or Raven’s Crime. If you’re facing mana-directed hate, however, you’re probably not going to come out on top. Nevertheless, it’s worth fighting on, since you do have a decent army in front of you. Such is luck.
Hand 3: Nimble Mongoose, Tarmogoyf, Stinkweed Imp, Thoughtseize, Brainstorm, Ponder, Intuition
Verdict: Obviously unworkable. Mull to Swamp, Forest, Underground Sea, Brainstorm, Daze, Intuition. This time, you’ve got an excellent hand; keep it.
Turn 1: Play your Underground Sea, and cast Brainstorm at the end of your opponent’s turn (or in response to something). It nets you Ponder, Tarmogoyf, Force of Will. If your opponent cast Thoughtseize or something similar, put back the Intuition with Tarmogoyf on top (unless he can nab your lands, as with Hymn to Tourach). Otherwise, unless you need the Force immediately, I’d opt to put back the Swamp and Forest.
Turn 2: Draw Forest. Play Forest, then play Tarmogoyf (1/2).
Turn 3: Draw Swamp. If necessary, play the Swamp to cast Intuition (for some sort of Genesis pile, probably). Otherwise, save both cards for a bit and Ponder into Tarmogoyf, Thoughtseize, and Polluted Delta. Depending on what your opponent is playing/has played, Thoughtseize probably isn’t all that useful at the moment, so put it on the bottom followed by Polluted Delta. Draw the Tarmogoyf. Play your Swamp, then play a second Tarmogoyf (2/3). At this point, again, the game-state takes over and makes it very difficult to say what to play. You might have had to Daze something before, for example, thereby slowing you down a tad. Still, it’s easy enough to figure out.
Hand 4: Wasteland, Bayou, Windswept Heath, Tarmogoyf, Eternal Witness, Shriekmaw, Force of Will
Verdict: An excellent hand.
Turn 1: Play Windswept Heath.
Turn 2: Draw Tarmogoyf. Crack Heath for Tropical Island, play Wasteland, cast Tarmogoyf (1/2).
Turn 3: Draw Swamp. Play Swamp. Play Tarmogoyf. Possibly Waste a land across the board. Or you can always opt to destroy an opposing Tarmogoyf. Swing for 1 (or 2, if Shriekmaw had some fun).
Turn 4: Draw Intuition. The field is now wide open; you’ll probably want to cast Intuition this turn, and you’ll probably want to grab either a Genesis pile, or Loam/Raven’s Crime/Cephalid Coliseum--this will depend on what’s sitting across the board from you, and how effective a mana denial strategy might prove.
Hand 5: Swamp, Raven’s Crime, Brainstorm, Intuition, Intuition, Eternal Witness, Pernicious Deed
Verdict: Unworkable. Mulligan into Underground Sea, Ponder, Ponder, Brainstorm, Intuition, Nimble Mongoose[/i]. This is workable, if a little risky. If you know you’re playing against something with Wasteland, go to five. Otherwise, we’ll take it and try to run with it.
Turn 1: Play Underground Sea, and cast Ponder (you will need to shuffle if there are no lands) for Stinkweed Imp, Tropical Island, and Pernicious Deed. Keep the pile as it is, and draw the Imp; you don’t want to run the chance of losing that Tropical Island to a discard spell.
Turn 2: Draw Tropical Island. Play Tropical Island. Cast Ponder from the Underground Sea: you want to hit another land ASAP, and if you do hit one you’ll want to play the Mongoose. Ponder reveals Pernicious Deed, Cephalid Coliseum, and Force of Will. Put Deed last, Coliseum just on top, and draw Force of Will. You now have Threshold, so cast a 3-power Nimble Mongoose and enjoy your ability to counter something if necessary.
Turn 3: Draw Cephalid Coliseum. Cast Brainstorm off of Underground Sea (unless you need Shriekmaw or an Intuition fix ASAP). It nets you Pernicious Deed, Forest, and Brainstorm. Put back what you don’t need right away (probably Coliseum and Deed). Play the basic Forest, and Brainstorm into the two cards you put back plus a Force of Will. Put the same cards back, and enjoy your counter backup. Alternately, you could have kept Coliseum, played it, and possibly even popped it if necessary. Or there was always the Stinkweed Imp, or Intuition. At this point, there are simply too many situational options to describe, and it’s really up to your own discretion.
Hand 6: Forest, Windswept Heath, Tropical Island, Tarmogoyf, Shriekmaw, Shriekmaw, Pernicious Deed
Verdict: Excellent hand.
Turn 1: Play your Forest.
Turn 2: Draw Life from the Loam. Play Tropical Island, followed by Tarmogoyf (0/1).
Turn 3: Draw an Island. Play Windswept Heath, crack it for a Bayou. Either cast a Shriekmaw, Deed, or Life from the Loam. Swing with your Tarmogoyf. Your next few turns are pretty well set up, and should be straightforward. Unfortunately, you’ll be drawing land for three turns (if you recur the Heath and shuffle again) before hitting a Mongoose. Such are the vagaries of the game, however.
Hand 7: Swamp, Bayou, Shriekmaw, Shriekmaw, Wonder, Brainstorm, Ponder
Verdict: You could keep this hand. If you know what you’re playing against, that might be good enough. So too if you’re on the draw. It’s not a very aggressive hand, however, and I personally think it’s worth mulliganing. And so, we wind up with a hand consisting of Island, Swamp, Polluted Delta, Thoughtseize, Intuition, and Eternal Witness. Much, much better. We’ll keep this one.
Turn 1: Play your Swamp, then Thoughtseize.
Turn 2: Draw Pernicious Deed. Play your Island.
Turn 3: Draw Windswept Heath. Play it and crack it for a basic Forest. Play Deed.
Turn 4: Draw Thoughtseize. Play Polluted Delta. Play Thoughtseize. Crack the Delta for a Tropical Island, and cast Intuition (if it doesn’t resolve, you’ll be able to bring it back with Witness) for whatever you need at this point in the game (possibly Stinkweed Imp for removal, but obviously that’ll depend). Alternately, you could blow up Deed if it stuck around. Just do what needs to be done. If anything fails, you can just fix it with Eternal Witness on your next turn.
What to take away from these sample hands
The sample hands above certainly have their limitations, not least of which being the MWS shuffler. Still, there are a few things that can be taken away from the above scenarios. First of all, hands with only one land are seldom worth keeping, unless you’ve mulliganed into them and are capable of casting a Ponder or two (if you only hand one land and a single Brainstorm, I would just mulligan again). Two-land hands are usually perfectly workable, and three-land hands tend to be ideal since those first three land drops are the most important for the deck.
Often, chance will give you hands that are perfectly decent, but rather lacking as far as aggression (or control) goes. This is perfectly fine, and entirely workable, but you just have to realise which role you’ve been forced into and play accordingly, using Intuition and your other tools to balance out whichever role is deficient.
Your first two or three turns will generally all play out very similarly; it’s really only once Intuition comes into play that things open up for you. This is especially useful for tricking the opponent into thinking you’re playing a bad or slow version of BUG Threshold, forcing him into what are really bad plays (such as trading to kill a Mongoose).
Dealing with Hate
The most common form of hate that you will see boarded in against you is graveyard hate (Usually Tormod’s Crypt, sometimes Extirpate, Jotun Grunt, or Leyline of the Void). In fact, there seems to be a fairly common misconception that graveyard hate is particularly problematic for Intuition-Threshold to deal with. Losing some resources is never beneficial, that much is certain. Having some card-advantage engines shut down is likewise undesirable. Nevertheless, you have ample alternatives within the maindeck, and can always just hardcast Genesis or Wonder if need be. Don’t put Genesis in the yard until you can make some use of it (bringing back just a single Mongoose is good enough), but don’t hesitate to do so either. If the deck you’re playing against isn’t running Swords to Plowshares (or hasn’t any white mana at the moment), you can just hardcast Genesis or Wonder and take however many swings you’re allowed. Against Leyline, just hardcast things, but try to save a Mongoose and a Shriekmaw for future contingencies. Try to blow it up with Deed or Grip.
Of the above-listed cards, Tormod’s Crypt is the most problematic because it removes everything at once. As always, the key here is not to over-commit to the development of your graveyard. Put things in when you can use them for at least a turn (preferably a game-breaking move), but play carefully. Hardcast your graveyard options. You might even want to activate Coliseum in response to the Crypt going off, just to increase your options afterward.
Finally, a small word about alternatives: should you lose Genesis to some form of graveyard hate or Swords to Plowshares, do not despair! You still have Gigapede, after all, and Gigapede is the real all-star here (since he’s untargetable). Stinkweed Imp is still around for removal, and you also have Cephalid Coliseum for card-advantage--just dredge slightly more carefully. Losing Wonder isn’t a big deal at all unless the opposing army flies; just blow things up and swing in with Gigapede instead. Losing Shriekmaw leaves you with Stinkweed Imp or Deed; losing Life from the Loam just isn’t at all problematic unless you’re facing consistent manabase hate--in which case you were in for a rough ride anyway.
Much more significant is the hate that aims to dismantle your manabase. Sure, you have Life from the Loam to help with that, but let’s be realistic: it’s just one card, and not nearly enough to save you from sustained attacks unless you can bring it online relatively early on. Fetching basics (and at the appropriate time) is obviously of the utmost importance here, and you certainly have more than enough of those to go around. You can survive on two or three lands for quite some time, so focus on developing threats: what value blowing up your lands, when it’s the creatures that need to be dealt with? Nimble Mongoose tends to be stellar here, since it can’t be targeted, as is Gigapede, when or if you can ever cast it. If your metagame is going to be rife with land-hate (Lands.dec, Dragon Stompy, Stax, etc.), then I would suggest re-tooling the deck a tad, such as by including Veteran Explorers (or even Werebear) somewhere.
6.) Matchup Analysis
Goblins: This is a very tough matchup to win, especially pre-board. Fetching out basic lands is a key component of your strategy, because mana denial will screw you over. The other part of your strategy has to be to deny the Goblins player multiple drops per turn. That means countering Aether Vial if possible, and dealing with Goblin Lackey as soon as possible. The early game will set up the rest of the game; if you can get a couple of Tarmogoyfs and maybe a Mongoose into play, and then turtle behind Deed, you will probably win so long as you can prevent your opponent from playing too much each turn. One thing to keep in mind here is that you must play defensively. I have a tendency to try to swing for a few extra points of damage, but doing so here will lose you the matchup without fail. Remember that Goblins’ strength lies in playing a hasty horde all at once when you’re not ready to deal with it, and then smacking you down. Accordingly, you must turtle behind Goyf and Deed as much as possible. Post-board, take out Daze and Gigapede (they’re useless here) for Blue Elemental Blast (counterspell AND removal? YES PLEASE!) and sub out Thoughtseize for Crime/Punishment, which is more useful. Good luck; you’ll need it.
The EPIC Storm: With the advent of Ad Nauseam, this isn’t quite the deck it used to be. My testing against the older version was much more extensive, but I think that in general the same sorts of considerations apply. Empty the Warrens isn’t really a kill-condition that you need to worry about too much, since you can Deed or Crime/Punishment your way into a solution. Grapeshot and Tendrils are the real concerns here, and without Stifle, they’re that much more problematic. A number of the principles applicable to earlier versions of this deck are still viable, however. For example, counter the tutor that reaches for a kill or tries to create a chain (Infernal Tutor is the main culprit, but also Burning Wish). Apply Thoughtseize liberally. That is probably your best shot, game one. If you can fend off an early attack, then Loam/Wasteland/Raven’s Crime can carry you the rest of the way on a Tarmogoyf’s back. As with all combo decks, however, that’s the challenge: fending off the initial combo. The good news is that as the game goes on, your chances increase exponentially. Nevertheless, be prepared to lose that first game: Orim’s Chant tends to get in the way. The real contest will be for games two and three. Post-board, then, take out Shriekmaw and Stinkweed Imp for Blue Elemental Blast. You obviously want to use these to hit Burning Wish and save your other counterspells for Orim’s Chant. Cross your fingers and hope for luck. Oh, and side out Deed for Crime/Punishment: it’s a tad faster. Genesis, Wonder, and Gigapede can all come out for Krosan Grip: use it to hit artefact mana sources. You’ve got all the tools to win, you just need to recognize that you’re Arnold, not the Predator.
Threshold in general: A very favourable matchup. This is because your curve is generally outside of Counterbalance range, and Threshold can’t match you threat for threat, whereas you can generally match it counterspell/disruption for counterspell/disruption. Your goal here is to force a standstill until you can get your engines going and out-advantage the Threshold deck. Accordingly, try to set up early creature trades (e.g. Mongoose for Mongoose). Threshold runs very few creatures, which means that early trades act as removal spells—thereby making your own removal all the more potent. Gigapede is an all-star, since he dodges pretty much all of their removal. Finally, Wonder will allow you to clinch the game quickly. If you have the opportunity, attack the manabase with Loam + Wasteland + Raven’s Crime.
UGB Threshold: This is the most problematic of the Threshold variants for you simply because its Stifle-effects and land destruction can put a serious dent in your early game that make it difficult to recover. The key here is to keep a decent hand and fetch out basics as early as possible. Hit Stifle with Thoughtseize if you can—unless there happens to be a Tombstalker hanging around for some reason. If you can stall the game, Dark Confidant damage will eventually overwhelm your opponent. Get Stinkweed Imp online early to fend off some attacks/bite a Stifle or two. Post-board, switch out Deed for Crime/Punishment to save yourself some Stifle headaches. Play carefully, and you should still win more often than not.
UGR Threshold: There’s a large variety of these decks. If you come across the Stifle-variety, play carefully as mentioned above. Also, be wary of your opponent’s reach. Post-board, bring in Blue Elemental Blast for Thoughtseize. If it packs Swans of Brynn Argoll, on the other hand, the match will be that much tougher. Try to get a Loam/Wasteland/Raven’s Crime lock online before your opponent can cast the Swans. Post-board, Blue Elemental Blast is your friend. Bring it in for the Witness and Deeds. Use Thoughtseize to hit Swans and Chain of Plasma.
Countersliver: A fair matchup pre-board, Deed will be the deciding factor here, along with (eventually) Wonder. Deed is the key to the matchup: protect it. This will mean stalling until you can blow up a chunk of the opposing army; accordingly, play defensively. Post-board, take out Shriekmaw for Crime/Punishment—Crystalline Sliver negates the ‘maw, and sweepers will win you the game. It’s that simple, really. You won’t always pull it off, but you have a great chance of winning 2/3 games.
Faerie Stompy: I’d say we’re favoured to win, but this can be a pretty exciting match. The amount of removal that we run will pose problems for Faerie Stompy, but FS can bust out an early start that’s just really hard to race. Keep early beaters off the table, and you should be fine. Concentrate on countering and destroying creatures rather than equipment--the equipment is useless without creatures, and you can easily force FS into topdeck mode. Use Genesis recursion to bring Shriekmaw back as often as possible, and try to fetch out Loam/Wasteland/Raven’s Crime early on to hate out your opponent’s manabase. FS’ biggest asset in this fight is its explosive speed early on; its greatest weakness is its tenuous creature base. Post-board, switch out Deed for Crime/Punishment: this avoids potential problems caused by Pithing Needle.
Reanimator: Big, flying pro-black (and black) things are NOT good. Daze and FoW, however, are (but Deed is not very useful in this matchup, unfortunately). Stinkweed Imp is pretty cool here, and it’s always nice to have stuff in the grave to Exhume. What you board in will depend on the creature base you’re facing (Hellkites, for example, make Blue Elemental Blast a better card than Deed). Extirpate should probably come in for Shriekmaw/Deed.
Ichorid: I’d basically call this an auto-loss. Hell, I’ve pretty much stopped trying to win. Without more significant graveyard hate in the SB, you just aren’t likely to win against an opponent that’s familiar with his or her deck. Post-board, Extirpate won’t help much, but it might steal you a game. Shriekmaw should be replaced by Crime/Punishment, which can at least hit tokens. Also, you won’t need your counterspells. What the hell, bring in Worm Harvest just in case--it’ll be more useful. If Ichorid is likely to be an issue in your area, do yourself a favour and board Tormod’s Crypt.
Belcher: Win some, lose some. As with all fast combo, you have a very good chance with your counter suite, but everything depends on the hands that you and your opponent are dealt. Forget about playing creatures, sculpt your hand to counter Goblin Charbelcher or to deal with Empty the Warrens tokens (don’t forget Thoughtseize!). If you have the opportunity to hit a land with Wasteland, it might be worth it just to slow your opponent down a turn. Post-board, bring in Crime/Punishment for Shriekmaw, and Blue Elemental Blast for Wonder, Genesis, Gigapede, and Stinkweed Imp.
Burn: Win some, lose some. This matchup is really easy to play, but winning depends on your draws. Waste no time attacking with Tarmogoyf, and save your Forces for 4+ damage spells. Daze what you can, have Thoughtseize hit 3-damage spells. Try to fetch mostly basics, since Price of Progress really hurts. Post-board, bring in Blue Elemental Blast and Extirpate for Shriekmaw, Genesis, Wonder, Gigapede, and Stinkweed Imp. Your objective is to deplete your opponent’s hand and deck of resources, while nullifying topdecks.
Goyf Sligh: Initially rough, it gets a little better after boarding. Your creatures easily outclass your opponent’s, but burn gives him/her the reach he/she needs to win. Counterspells should be aimed at the burn (particularly Fireblast and Price of Progress); try to fetch basics to nullify Price of Progress. Blow things up regularly. If you have the time, attack the manabase with Loam/Wasteland/Raven’s Crime. Post-board, you want those Blue Elemental Blasts! I’d say to replace Deed and Wonder with them. The good news is that this deck can’t side all that much in against you.
Various Stax Builds: Slightly unfavourable to rather yucky, depending on the build and your respective starting hands. You’ll want to counter Smokestack and Crucible of Worlds, and use Wasteland liberally on the manabase. A single safe fatty will win you the game, but you’ll need to hold its hand the whole way through. In general, this isn’t a great matchup. Try to fetch basics and get Loam out ASAP. Loam/Wasteland/Raven’s Crime is your ideal Intuition pile. Post-board, you can only really bring in Krosan Grip in Shriekmaw’s stead. The good news is that Stax is relatively slow, so you generally have a little time to find things.
Affinity: Highly favourable. Keep your counterspells for Disciple of the Vault, and just blow up your opponent’s manabase once he or she has largely expended his or her hand. You should be able to rebuild faster. Post-board, bring in Crime/Punishment for Thoughtseize, and Krosan Grip for Shriekmaw. Rinse and repeat. Fetch out a Loam and Wasteland when you can for added carnage.
Dreadstill: The longer the game runs, the more favourable it becomes for you. The faster Dreadnought hits the table, the worse it is. Stifle and Trickbind neuter a chunk of your deck, unfortunately, and Wasteland won’t help. This deck has the ability to assault your manabase early on, and that’s the biggest threat you’ll face after Dreadnought. If you can play around all that, you have good odds. Otherwise, I just swallow the loss and move on. Post-board, Krosan Grip comes in for Shriekmaw, and Crime/Punishment replaces Wonder, Genesis, and Gigapede.
Aggro-Loam: Pretty even, I think. Game one, you really want to keep Devastating Dreams and Seismic Assault off the table. Countryside Crusher is also rather unfortunate. Game one is tough to pull off, but with a good start, you can do it. Getting Life from the Loam online early on is very important, and you’ll probably want Stinkweed Imp/Genesis recursion fairly soon too, to deal with the Terravores and Crushers (although Deed works nicely too). Post-board, bring in Blue Elemental Blast for Daze and Extirpate for Nimble Mongoose. Use Extirpate against Life from the Loam, and then after that on win conditions. Blue Elemental Blast should complement FoW against Dreams/Assault, and complement Shriekmaw against Crusher.
Painter Decks: You have all the tools necessary to win here, but your success will depend a great deal on the version that you’re squaring off against. You obviously want to counter or destroy Grindstone, and later Extirpate it if you can. Krosan Grip will no doubt also prove necessary to bring in. If you expect to face a few of these, replace Worm Harvest with at least one Gaea’s Blessing (preferably two) to help you just a little. To be honest, I haven’t got enough experience playing against the different versions of this deck to talk reliably about the best strategies. Input is obviously appreciated.
Survival Variants: Generally, these turn out to be pretty even matchups. Expect a hard fight to win. Deed is obviously stellar here, as is Wasteland recursion. Later, Extirpate can help out some. Your setup is a little faster, so I recommend to use the early game to attack your opponent’s manabase as much as possible. Fetch out Loam/Wasteland/Raven’s Crime early on, and you should be able to slowly steamroll your opponent.
It’s the Fear: This is also a matchup that’s close enough that I’m not comfortable calling it; at least, not without more experience playing against it. Nimble Mongoose and Gigapede are your paths to victory here, since they evade Shackles. Most of the games that I’ve lost to ITF have been to miscalculations and underestimations of Shackles’ power: it basically means that your opponent has access to eight Tarmogoyfs, and you have none. These will likely be long games. Your goal is to land Gigaepede eventually, and to attack their hand and manabase with Loam/Wasteland/Raven’s Crime. Unfortunately, the fact that your opponent runs Loam as well makes that a little harder unless you can hit his or her green mana early on (or, dare I say it, Extirpate Loam). I’m not sure what the best sideboarding technique is quite yet, but I suspect it involves trading out Tarmogoyf and Stinkweed Imp, possibly for Extirpate and Worm Harvest.
Landstill: The Loam/Wasteland/Raven’s Crime Intuition pile really shines here, so try to get it into play as soon as possible. Your early aggression puts you in a good position, since it will force the Landstill player to quickly use up his or her reactive resources (counterspells, Deed, etc.). As usual, you want to break Standstill as soon as possible and just get it over with. Landstill decks will usually give you a chance to cultivate your board position, so take advantage of that fact; rack up the lands and force them to commit resources to paltry threats. If you’re playing against a white-splash variant, be wary of Humility--it can be a real doozie. Unless Humility hits the table, Gigapede should ultimately carry this for you. Post-board, bring in Krosan Grip for Daze. Grip is much better here because it can hit Factories, Humility, and Crucible of Worlds. You probably also want to bring in Worm Harvest (if you’ve got it) just in case you have to live under Humility for a little while--it’s also useful for overwhelming the opponent and forcing him or her to commit resources; kind of like an extra Gigapede.
Random decks: You should crush most of these, largely thanks to Deed and, later, Crime//Punishment.
7.) Results:
I unfortunately don’t live in an area that’s very close to any Legacy tournaments, so I’ve not had the opportunity to bring this deck to any significant tournaments. And since I’m working on my Master’s degree at the moment, time and money are a little too tight for this to change for at least another year. It’s also prevented me from entering the last few online tournaments that cropped up (Source and mtgsalvation tournaments), although I hope to change that as soon as another gets up and running. Accordingly, I just want to use this section to point lists that have made a small splash worldwide on a scale slightly grander than my own local scale.
Note: Some of these decks more closely resemble past incarnations (with Psychatog, for example); that’s just unavoidable, with the deck’s long history. While the lists may no longer be quite as similar as they once were, there are certainly lessons to be learned.
Intuition-Thresh
Alex Mack (Mackaber)
2008 German Legacy Championship (3rd)
Main Deck:
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Werebear
1 Wonder
1 Genesis
2 Shriekmaw
3 Pernicious Deeds
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Raven's Crime
1 Loam
Sideboard:
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Extirpate
4 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Gigapede
3 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
Psychatog
Michael Redford
2007 Worlds New York, NY
Legacy
Main Deck:
1 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Psychatog
1 Stinkweed Imp
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Wonder
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Deep Analysis
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Ponder
4 Spell Snare
3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground River
Sideboard:
3 Echoing Truth
4 Engineered Explosives
2 Hail Storm
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Stifle
Gifts-TarmoTog
Japan, 2007 (9th)
Main Deck:
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Barren Moor
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Brainstorm
3 Gifts Ungiven
1 Life from the Loam
1 Smother
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Damnation
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Cunning Wish
1 Shriekmaw
1 Eternal Witness
2 Psychatog
4 Tarmogoyf
Sideboard
1 Seedtime
1 Plagiarize
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Hideous Laughter
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Constant Mists
1 Teferi's Response
1 Stifle
1 Forbid
1 Misdirection
1 Krosan Grip
4 Extirpate
8.) Developmental Opportunities/Customizability:
As with most decks, there’s a fair bit of room in Intuition-Thresh for customization. Pretty much everything beyond your basic Threshold creatures and your Intuition package is open to change. Your removal package, for example, can be pretty much anything in-colour: I’ve had some success with builds running (always with at least one lone Shriekmaw) Sudden Death, Damnation, Smother, etc. You can choose to run Werebear or Veteran Explorer for added manabase stability (the Explorers are particularly good, by the way), you could go the Dredge-A-Tog route (add some Psychatogs, maybe another Loam, possibly Deep Analysis, etc.), you could increase either your counter or disruption packages, etc. If you’re worried about graveyard hate, Volrath’s Stronghold is always an option (over Genesis), although we’ve already outlined our reasons for preferring Genesis.
That said, I feel that the version that Hanni and I have developed is close to optimal for a blind or internet metagame. As far as customizing slots goes, then, I’d only advise metagame alterations. If you’re planning on facing a lot of Dreadstill, for example, Smother or Diabolic Edict might replace most of your Shriekmaws. Or, if you’re planning on seeing a lot of Stax and dedicated mana-hate, Veteran Explorer would be well-worth plugging in (yes, it’s a symmetrical card, but you generally benefit much more from it than your opponent can). Engineered Plague might even be a better sideboard choice than Crime/Punishment for your metagame--the point is that you can tailor the deck to what you need.
Since there aren’t too many of us working on this deck right now, this section of the primer is still a little scant. A few similar lists have cropped up worldwide now and then, but most aren’t really worth mentioning. It would also be possible to discuss a number of similar offshoots that are hanging around, such as Solpugid’s River Rock, donbiteitholmes’ Plymouth Rock, or nitewolf9’s very recent Team America (Top4 finish at the Source Anniversary Tournament), but those are probably best left to their own threads.
In other words, the idea is to keep this section as a place to highlight interesting new lists that crop up/developmental possibilities.
Hanni and georgjorge once brought up the possibility of a Red splash of the deck. Adding burn for added reach and speed is an interesting approach. Obviously, it’s going to differ from the UGB version significantly, but it certainly has potential. Here are their suggested lists:
Hanni’s U/G/r Intuition-Thresh
Lands (19)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Wasteland
Creatures (13)
4 Mongoose
4 Goyf
3 Wild Mongrel
1 Gigapede
1 Anger
Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
Whether or not Mongrel is better than Werebear or Quirion Dryad is a question that’s up for grabs. It’s worth noting that your fundamental Intuition piles remain largely unchanged, except that Anger now replaces Wonder and Barbarian Ring takes Cephalid Coliseum’s place. Instead of disruption, the deck now packs a scary burn package, speeding it up a few turns.
georgjorge’s UGR Late-Thresh:
8 Fetches
8 Duals (of three different styles)
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Barbarian Ring
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Mongrel
3 Mongoose
1 Gigapede
1 Roar of the Wurm
1 Wonder
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Bolt
3 Fire/Ice
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
It should be clear, at first glance, that this list closely resembles some versions of UGR Threshold, but with late-game elements substituting the Counterbalance lock. Burn acts as removal and reach. The control element here is much weaker than in the UGB version, obviously, but the sacrifice was for a little more speed. Intuition also plays a reduced role, generally complementary to Wild Mongrel (fetching Loam, Wonder, and Barbarian Ring or Roar of the Wurm in order to pitch them).
This opens up the possibility of a white splash for Swords to Plowshares, Jotun Grunt, Meddling Mage, etc. There’s also space for returning to Psychatog (or Tombstalker) with more dredgers, as evidenced by the Worlds list above. These are all interesting avenues to explore, but they require much more testing to determine their viability.
Conclusion
In sum, we can only say that I hope that the deck interests you and that some of you decide to pick it up. It has its problems, but it also has distinct advantages, and is a blast to play (after all, you get to see and play a chunk of your library most games). The deck has come very far since 2006, but it can go much farther (faster) if more people come together and give it a whirl. We encourage you all to do just that, and post your thoughts for a sustained discussion. It is our hope that this new primer will re-invigorate interest in the deck.
Take care and good luck,
-Goaswerfraiejen & Hanni
Thanks for all the info... but i have to say i prefer playing thresh as a tempo-thresh deck with black or canadian... both fast decks
Anyway it has to be good deck, hard to play with much many resources than standard thresh and card advantage in mid game. i want to test it!
Really, really awesome post. I am liking the deck and will beplaying around with it for sure. Three dazes strikes me as a bit odd, but hybridization etc is a harsh mistress and I am sure that it was dropped after a lot of testing.
Jesus W. Christ, that's a whole lot of post. How long did that take you to write up?! Also, good job.
How do you deal with Burning Wish out of Aggro Loam? Using Extirpate on their Loam is only so effective when they can get it back, and holding counters to use against Wish would hinder your ability to stop them from resolving their permanents (though this is somewhat moot if they run Volrath's Stronghold). In those versions with access to it, Chalice at one would also take out about half your counters, your discard, and all of your dig. It also seems like any sort of explosive start on their part would sink you before you could stabilize, since they'd have too many "must counter"s for you to deal with. Finally, graveyard hate in the form of Leyline of the Void or a well-timed Crypt would wreck you game two unless they can't kill you before you hit four mana and pop a Deed.
I'm not saying that it's not close. Judging by your lists, most Aggro Loam players would have a rough time and I doubt either deck could eke out a significant advantage in the matchup without boarding specifically against it. However, as an Aggro Loam player, explosive starts can be extremely common and your life total can drop to the point where you may not be able to stabilize in time, especially because many of your really devastating engines are very mana-hungry. (By "you," I mean the Thresh player)
That may be different for this deck, however. I'm going off what I know from control matchups, mostly Landstill.
why don't we run 1x Volrath's Stronghold?
I was wondering this too. I have yet to pick up this deck, but why is genesis better than Volrath's stronghold. In my history I have decided that any time you play loam, Volrath's seems better. The fact that you can use it End of Turn instead of in the upkeep and that is taps for mana is worth the fact that it goes on top of library.
As was explained in (one of) the opening post, genesis is a guaranteed source of card advantage where stronghold rarely is. I could see both being run, perhaps by moving the wasteland to the board, but not in place of genesis.
Daze confuses me too, actually. I've tested this deck with daze and found that it seriously interferes with my ability to utilize the recursion engines and deed. I suppose in a combo-heavy meta the dazes are a necessary evil.
Awesome work, I've worked on an Intuition based UG (with splash of other color) deck, and I never could quite get it right.
If only there could be a recursion engine for instants/sorceries, the deck's bad MU would be so much better...
Against Dreadstill, recuring Krosan grip is gg.
Ichorid -> Crime/Punishmen.
That, and a Gigapede, wonder, genesis Intuition stack is game over for thresh anyway. (Without GY hate boarded that is) A similar Intuition stack with Stronghold isn't as aggressive imo.
Hi, thanks to all the author's of this primer as it is beautifully crafted and in depth enough to take a decent player from 0 to decent much quicker than just a list.
If anything this should be an example primer on how to rock someones socks off.
Hmmm...further on thinking it would be sort of cool to have a resources board/set of links where primers, and lists of required reading would go in as opposed to having it buried in the normal deck forums.
Thanks for all your thoughts, kind comments, and interest.
IIRC, Hanni and I have had it in the works since mid or late August. Thereabouts, at any rate. You’re staring at 31 pages’ worth of words.
Well, like I said, you’re going to have to counter it. Unfortunately, that makes a whole lot of counterspell targets, which is part of the difficulty. At the very least, however, Extirpating Loam should give you a few turns to breathe. The good news is that this is a difficult matchup for both decks--too close to call. A lot hangs on your respective opening hands.How do you deal with Burning Wish out of Aggro Loam? Using Extirpate on their Loam is only so effective when they can get it back, and holding counters to use against Wish would hinder your ability to stop them from resolving their permanents (though this is somewhat moot if they run Volrath's Stronghold).
Absolutely; it’s to be avoided. The nice thing is that such a low setting is easy enough to blow up. It’s worth noting that Grip or Crime/Punishment can also come in to help you after the first game (Crime/Punishment doubles as removal, but Grip hits hate--I’m not sure which is best), although I’m not sure what should come out for it/them.In those versions with access to it, Chalice at one would also take out about half your counters, your discard, and all of your dig.
Granted. Thoughtseize, Daze, and Force of Will do go a long way toward slowing them down early on, in game one, however. The early game is very defensive on our part.It also seems like any sort of explosive start on their part would sink you before you could stabilize, since they'd have too many "must counter"s for you to deal with.
Or three for Grip. Leyline isn’t a huge consideration, though: I’m more worried about Crypt. Our graveyard isn’t all that relevant until the mid and late-games, by which time we should have amassed the mana to blow up the Leyline. Crypt is more unfortunate because it can come in after you think you have the game under control and get rid of your control elements. Basically, it doesn’t let us put our eggs all in the same basket.Finally, graveyard hate in the form of Leyline of the Void or a well-timed Crypt would wreck you game two unless they can't kill you before you hit four mana and pop a Deed.
This is a very tasking matchup, no bones about it. It’s also a lot of fun to play out. I called it “pretty much even” (“slightly unfavourable” might have been better) because so much hangs on your respective opening hands in all three games (and because, in testing, I’ve lost as many as I’ve won).
Oh, you’re bang-on: there’s no denying it. Play errors will cost us the game against aggro-loam. There’s no ignoring the problems. By the same token, however, we can put up a hell of a fight.I'm not saying that it's not close. Judging by your lists, most Aggro Loam players would have a rough time and I doubt either deck could eke out a significant advantage in the matchup without boarding specifically against it. However, as an Aggro Loam player, explosive starts can be extremely common and your life total can drop to the point where you may not be able to stabilize in time, especially because many of your really devastating engines are very mana-hungry. (By "you," I mean the Thresh player)
That may be different for this deck, however. I'm going off what I know from control matchups, mostly Landstill.
Solpugid hit this nail on the head, and it’s explained in the primer: it’s a combination of mana requirements (colourless mana being decidedly unsightly here), card advantage, and Genesis’ fat behind. It’s also worth noting that Stronghold is vulnerable to Pithing Needle (although that’s a little less relevant today than it was even a year ago), and that you seldom have three mana open at the end of your turn, at least early on. Paying it in your upkeep sucks, but it doesn’t cost you a draw (like a land draw), and it leaves you the option to Dredge your draw. Come to think of it, I should edit that last one into the Primer.
I don’t remember if I mentioned this in the primer, but I’m not a huge fan of Daze. I’d like to replace it with Veteran Explorers (my older versions made that call) or extra lands (perhaps even including a Stronghold), but Hanni and I were worried about the combo matchups. If some of you feel like testing some lands in these slots to see if it’s a worthwhile tradeoff, that would be much appreciated.
Well, for a mere 3GGG you can recur Eternal Witness...
Ah, it's refreshing to hear someone admit that a matchup may not be rosy.
That said, Chalice at zero stops Crypt and doesn't affect your deck in any way, but it's not really useful outside that application. Stifle and Pithing Needle, however...Stifle is more of a tempo card, so it may not be appropriate here, but Needle on Crypt forces them to Wish for Shattering Spree or Hull Breach before they can land a Crypt. Having a counter handy to either hit the Wish or hit the Crypt would help, though I'd rather hit the Wish because some builds (like mine) run Eternal Witness. Allowing Wish to hit the yard in that case (or in most cases) does a couple good things for you.
First, it forces them to spend more mana: Witness into Wish into Card, as opposed to Witness into Card. That can be relevant because tangling up Aggro-Loam's resources like that gives you more time to set up some of the engines, like Shriekmaw-Genesis.
Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, it allows you to Extirpate it. Extirpating Wish is GG in almost all cases, as Loam's Wishboard makes your life a lot more difficult than it needs to be. It also allows you to cripple them by permanently removing Loam. If you can deal with their creatures at that point (and you should be able to), there's nothing they can do unless you're at a very low life total.
I'd suggest looking into a one-of copy of Viridian Zealot, probably in the sideboard. The Aggro Loam player's best artifact options against you involve Needle (on Deed or EE) and Chalice at one, and this beats both of those AND Seismic Assault. It can also be randomly useful elsewhere, such as against It's the Fear, where it's like a Meddling Mage set to Standstill and Counterbalance, or against Painter, where it kills the namesake card and stops the loop from forming in addition to turning sideways for two.
Most of these are really just specific to the Aggro Loam matchup. Unless you're expecting that deck in spades, only Needle is really useful across the board.
The issue with viridian zealot is that this deck usually runs with 1 or 2 green-producing lands in play. Getting three in the early turns is rather rare, which means zealot is a 2-turn play, obviously allowing the opposing deck a full turn to remove it. It also can't hit a blood moon that's already in play barring great fortune AND great foresight.
I don't know what could possibly take its place (that's a creature, anyway), but I would think zealot would be dead in hand too often. Wickerbough elder is only 1 extra mana, I suppose.
First of:
- I like the idea behind the deck.
- I love the decks primer.
- I just can't understand your card choices.
- I totally agree where your going with the deck though.
@Goaswerfraiejen:
Lands (18)
3 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Forest
- There is no reason to run more than 1 forest.
2 Swamp
- Again why more than 1 swamp? Your going to counter Price of Progress anyways... why not make your mana more consistent and run more duals?
1 Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum
- Cast LFTL 1G, play CC, Pay U and sac it, draw 3 and discard your two lands. Total cost: Skip your draw + Skip your Land drop + pay 1UG.
- Card Advantage: +1 (b/c of dredging)
- I don't think its worth it for the card advantage, why give your opponent a time walk just to get +1 card? And if your defense is it's to discard Genesis/Wonder then why play bad cards to make bad cards playable?
1 Wasteland
- This would be better as a 3 or 4 of, why waste searching for it? You mana-base is already better for running 3 colors, and your more tempo to take advantage of it. Run more or don't run any.
Creatures (16)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Shriekmaw
- Terror is bad in legacy. Just because you can re-cur it with genesis doesn't make it good. At least run less, maybe it's ok in your meta-game but I would like to kill whatever creature my opponent has and not die b/c my removal is so limited.
1 Wonder
- This card is only good if you waste an intuition on it. Top decking this card sucks allot. I don't see how this is good until extreme late game and sucking everywhere else and only gets in a few random I win's. (Minus expected value)
1 Genesis
- Simular idea hear. It's a bad top-deck. Cost too much mana to play, and you have to have a discard outlet to use it. The only reason I would see here is when it's Genesis VS. Volrath but in every other situation Volrath (awesome top decking) VS. No Volrath (Random Bad top decking) still wins.
1 Gigapede
- I hope the only reason you are playing this is because it is probably your best discard outlet. Otherwise it cost way too much mana. There are better cheaper ways to win late games.
1 Eternal Witness
- Not completely horrible but it cost so much mana to 2G (Genesis) 1GG (Witness) and then X (play the card) it seems very slow and just casting cards that do things in the same turn you play them seems better.
1 Stinkweed Imp (Intresting choice that I have not yet tested.)
Spells (26)
3 Brainstorm
- How about 4 Brainstorms and 3 Ponder....
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
- Is 4 really needed? I think you designed your deck so that it relies to much on intuition if you take out some of the situational 1 off cards you could cut 1, because really if you resolve 1 in the mid-game vs an non-aggro deck you should win.
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
- Can't argue too much although it seems like how heavy intuition your deck is you would get into the late game more than normal in which something else might be better? I think I just hate Daze and your choice is correct. Nevermind...
3 Thoughtseize (this is why we play black)
3 Pernicious Deed
- I play a simular deck to yours and yours is more tempo then mine. I decided deed was too slow and play EE. Either is good tho. Why not maindeck removal though? Snuff out, smother, and edict are all good options over shreikmaw.
1 Raven's Crime (I love this card)
Wow great Primer Goaswerfraiejen. I really like the dec but I definetly have to agree with the poster above that I find some of your more recent changes to the list hideous (come on 3 brainstorms? you've got to be kidding). Also your manabase is not one I'd ever run or one that can actually support daze. I've actually been testing the dec off and on but have dismissed it momentarily since I found a bit clunky and unwieldy but removing the dazes might actually go a long way. I'd actually like to test spell snare for that slot but the problem is it's hard to keep the mana up. I was actually considering thwart at some point but it sucks too hard post loam to be played as anything other than a one of.
In any case keep up the good work. Hope I'll be able to put up some more results with the dec in the future to give it the credibility it deserves.
There was a very simple reason: shaky manabase, high mana requirements. Forests and Swamps are crucial for aggro component, and Swamps are just as important on the control side.
It's not Price of Progress that worries me: it's Wasteland recursion and other attacks on the manabase. A strong basic core seemed like a good way to counter that. I don't disagree that it's sort of hideous, though.
1 Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum
- Cast LFTL 1G, play CC, Pay U and sac it, draw 3 and discard your two lands. Total cost: Skip your draw + Skip your Land drop + pay 1UG.
- Card Advantage: +1 (b/c of dredging)
- I don't think its worth it for the card advantage, why give your opponent a time walk just to get +1 card? And if your defense is it's to discard Genesis/Wonder then why play bad cards to make bad cards playable?
- You forgot about card quality. Coliseum is an excellent late-game engine, and allows you to improve your card quality, trading relatively useless cards for cards that can have an immediate impact on the situation.
- There's no Time Walk involved here, unless you're using Coliseum with only three other lands in play--which obviously isn't the time to be using it, since there's so much better to do. Unless you're really desperate, anyway.
- The discard argument is part of its usefulness, but certainly not the whole story. The same can be said of Raven's Crime. I use it as a filter more often than not.
The big issue was and is colour requirements, as I've explained. I'm not against running more, and you'll see that what I'm currently testing (below) does; but if we start asking that the deck run Stronghold as well, then I'm getting MORE worried about the manabase's weakness.1 Wasteland
- This would be better as a 3 or 4 of, why waste searching for it? You mana-base is already better for running 3 colors, and your more tempo to take advantage of it. Run more or don't run any.
The only real point against Terror is that it's sorcery-speed. Well, that, and Counterbalance/Spell Snare vulnerability. The colour limitations generally aren't all that relevant, especially if you can complement them somehow. Shriekmaw is clearly superior to Terror.Terror is bad in legacy. Just because you can re-cur it with genesis doesn't make it good. At least run less, maybe it's ok in your meta-game but I would like to kill whatever creature my opponent has and not die b/c my removal is so limited.
That said, I must confess that the only reason I haven't yet tried Snuff Out as a removal option is that I (for some reason) thought it cost 3or 5 life, and couldn't hit artifact creatures. Since it in fact costs 3
I'll confess that I've been wondering about its usefulness as well. I'll test without it, but one concern is the general lack of evasion in the deck; it means that standstills have to be won through attrition/sweeping to a greater extent than is currently the case. I'll test without it and see how much I miss it, however.1 Wonder
- This card is only good if you waste an intuition on it. Top decking this card sucks allot. I don't see how this is good until extreme late game and sucking everywhere else and only gets in a few random I win's. (Minus expected value)
The last part of your argument doesn't work; it should read "Volrath (awesome topdecks) vs. Genesis (awesome topdeck + random topdeck)". Genesis gets you the same card as Stronghold does; it just also gives you an extra card or a dredge, and doesn't mess even more with our manabase. It's not like ITF, where Counterbalance pretty much requires Stronghold. Honestly, in my testing, I've really preferred Genesis (for the reasons mentioned here and in the primer), and I think Hanni agrees.1 Genesis
- Simular idea hear. It's a bad top-deck. Cost too much mana to play, and you have to have a discard outlet to use it. The only reason I would see here is when it's Genesis VS. Volrath but in every other situation Volrath (awesome top decking) VS. No Volrath (Random Bad top decking) still wins.
Needing a discard outlet isn't an issue, currently: there are plenty (Dredge, Coliseum, Raven's Crime, Gigapede, Thoughtseize). The more significant issue would be easier Intuition piles (Loam, Stronghold, Wasteland/Raven's Crime). Even then, however, we're not talking about an immediate return, and it will still take up a land drop--a vulnerable drop, to boot (Wasteland, opposing Strongholds, Blood Moon-effects, etc.). It's also worth noting that fetching out Stronghold with Intuition means that you (generally) start getting your creatures a full turn later than you would with Genesis, which can be an important factor--especially if you consider that you're sacrificing (Genesis')card advantage.
That said, running both is always an option.
1 Gigapede
- I hope the only reason you are playing this is because it is probably your best discard outlet. Otherwise it cost way too much mana. There are better cheaper ways to win late games.
- Gigapede has been the subject of much testing, and I have to categorically disagree with you here. There are indeed better ways to win late games, but how many require only a single slot? Also, consider the fact that it's an untargetable, Tarmogoyf-killing insect that comes back turn after turn AND gives you a discard outlet while also providing a certain amount of resiliency against hate (such as Crypt, Extirpate, etc.). The high casting cost protects it from Counterbalance, Deed, and EE. It is an amazing inclusion in this deck, and bears a ridiculous amount of synergy. Granted, it's even better with Wonder, and so loses a little of its glory without it; but not much, and I'm not quite sold on cutting Wonder quite yet.
You've mistaken the purpose of Eternal Witness. I almost never recur it with Genesis because, as you said, it costs too much. Instead, I tend to use it as recursion outside of the Genesis loop: need a card back ASAP? Get it with Witness instead. That it can do cool things with Genesis is just a neat extra feature.1 Eternal Witness
- Not completely horrible but it cost so much mana to 2G (Genesis) 1GG (Witness) and then X (play the card) it seems very slow and just casting cards that do things in the same turn you play them seems better.
I've explained why I feel Ponder is superior to Brainstorm here. If you disagree, you're going to have to explain why. With a better, more resilient manabase, I might agree with you.3 Brainstorm
How about 4 Brainstorms and 3 Ponder....
I don't necessarily disagree. I've wondered the same myself.Intuition
- Is 4 really needed? I think you designed your deck so that it relies to much on intuition if you take out some of the situational 1 off cards you could cut 1, because really if you resolve 1 in the mid-game vs an non-aggro deck you should win.
I don't much like Daze either, as I've said. As you'll see in a moment I'm currently testing Spell Snare, but I'm not liking it all that much. Which leaves us with what? Mana Leak and Misdirection? Eww.
Can't argue too much although it seems like how heavy intuition your deck is you would get into the late game more than normal in which something else might be better? I think I just hate Daze and your choice is correct.
With all that being said, your points are good ones, and they've given me some ideas of directions that can be pushed in to increase consistency, redundancy, and... well, awesomeness. I'm currently testing the list below, with some promising preliminary results.
Lands (19)
3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Creatures (13)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Shriekmaw
1 Wonder
1 Genesis
1 Gigapede
1 Stinkweed Imp
Spells (28)
3 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Thoughtseize
3 Snuff Out
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Raven's Crime
Sideboard (15)
3 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Extirpate
4 Krosan Grip
3 Crime/Punishment
1 Worm Harvest / Gaea’s Blessing/Dread (open metagame slot)
There are a couple interaction questions with the build, some obvious ones being concerns with Genesis and Stronghold being too redundant, and similarly with Stinkweed Imp and Wonder, or the manabase being even more vulnerable to hate than it was (this is my biggest concern at the moment; Daze might even be more desirable again because of it). I don't really know what the definitive answers are yet: that requires more detailed testing, but I invite you all to help, and I'll let you know my own findings as they come up.
@ Goaswerfraiejen
Basic Lands
Against re-curring Wasteland you do have Loam to never miss a land drop. Also you do not need double Green or Black to cast your creatures. I am happy that you are testing -1 Swamp -1 Forest +2 Wasteland.
Mana Base
Also I think your mana-base is just as good since all you did was cut 2x non-blue source for 2x non-blue source.
Also I would personally go -1 Bayou -1 Heath +2 Delta.
And are you sure 19 lands is enough? I haven't tested you list allot but I was just wondering your opinion on how many lands to play. I'm currently testing 21 in my version.
Genesis VS. Volrath
What my point was that against every deck other than "ITF" Volrath will still beat your opponent and you do not need the extra draw. The only time Genesis especially shines in against "ITF" which you have Wasteland and Ravens Crime and they don't so you should win anyways.
Basically if you play only Volrath you can cut:
1 Cephalid Coliseum (you could play lonely sandbar to re-cur wasteland?)
1 Wonder
1 Gigapede
These are all good cards in your build but it seems like they are so rediculouslly good because of the synergy with only each other. For example I don't think you would play any of these cards by themselves and that they need other cards to become good.
1 Eternal Witness
If it's not to search for then why are you playing it as a 1-of and not 2-3-of?
I thought since it was a 1-of it was to Intuition for. Maybe I'm still really confused on this slot. I cut it because most of the time I ended up just shuffling it away with brainstorm or being mad because it cost 1GG.
Daze
Yeah it seems like it's a necasarry evil. My deck is a bit slower than yours as I like to avoid playing it at all. Spell Snare is really good in a very competative meta-game but at smaller less competative tournaments I run counterspell. Which I'm not always happy with and it obviously doesn't belong in this deck.
Anyways...
I'm glad to see you testing some of our brainstorming and am very intrested to see how the changes play out in testing. Let me know what you think.
I tried building a Grb Control Loam backed by P. Deed deck a while back and ended up reverting back to a few cards away from the typical Aggro Loam list.
I'm going to toy with this list when I get a chance. Although I'll probably go -1 Wonder -3 Spell Snare, +1 Snuff Out, +3 Daze from your most recent build.
You've also given me some ideas to go back and try to revamp the old list I was working on, maybe a different route for Gur.
Edit: and thanks for the great primer. :-P
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