Non-LED Dredge Primer
For those who don’t know Dredge/Ichorid is a graveyard based Combo/Aggro deck that wins by milling itself through Dredge cards and draw effects and then Dread Returning Flame-Kin Zealot into play with Bridge From Below in the graveyard and making a bunch of 2/2 Zombie tokens and swinging for the win. This primer will introduce you to the differences between LED-based Dredge decks and Non-LED based Dredge and talk about how to play it right and SB properly.
Differences
The basic difference between LED and Non-LED is the tradeoff of explosiveness for consistency. Because it does not play Lion’s Eye Diamond it can’t possibly win on turn 1 and this is why the deck is considered slower. Non-LED will consistently win on turns 2-4 every time because it is able to reliably dredge into the combo. Also the mulligans, LED Dredge mulligans like shit and oftentimes are forced to keep a hand of just LED to discard their hands (they don’t have mana to cast Putrid Imp) which makes them even more reliant on Deep Analysis (which goes hand-in-hand with LED). Non-LED Dredge is reliant on nothing. You can discard your hand with Tireless Tribe, Putrid Imp, Careful Study, Breakthrough, or you can Cabal Therapy yourself and each of those are equally effective. Careful Study acts as a mini-Breakthrough and helps find SB cards as well as helps in bating a Tormod's Crypt and oftentimes counterspells. In short, this build is just as fast but can't win on turn 1 and is infinitely more consistent.
Why No Deep Analysis and LED?
Deep Analysis and LED were my least favorite cards in the deck because they were reliant on each other. DA in the yard without an LED in play was essentially useless. Plus it does nothing to find SB cards due to it being uncastable in your hand and does not assist in discard. Careful Study is just better in every way and if Careful Study gets countered the most it costs you is 1-3 life or a mine counter off your land; where-as with DA, that gets countered you are in a world of hurt more often than not. DA and LED destroy consistency for the sake of being fast, that’s it, they assist in nothing else.
Why No Golgari Thug?
I used to run Golgari Thug but between PImp and Stinkweed and other Ichorids I never found it hard finding creatures to remove to bring Ichorid back. Now certain builds will run the Thug and there is nothing wrong with this but in Non-LED Dredge Darkblast is just better. Also, I get tired of freaking out when a Mogg Fanatic was on the table and needing a Pithing Needle or hoping to dredge into something that isn't just destroyed by that damn creature. Darkblast serves an essential role, the removal of imminent threats: Mogg Fanatic, Yixlid Jailer, Withered Wretch (if they are tapped out), and Gaddock Teeg. Oftentimes you will destroy Dark Confidant to keep them off of additional hate cards or a Lackey to keep the game at a slower pace. Darkblast is also amazing in the mirror, a premature Narcomoeba kill for LED Dredge is awful and so is removal of Pimp as well as Darkblasting your own creatures to remove their Bridges! And if worst comes to worst you can keep Darkblasting something and dredge it back if you have no discard outlet. The fact that Darkblast only dredges for 3 (instead of 4 like Thug) has never been relevant. And finding Ichorid fodder is never really a problem.
Why only 3x Ichorid?
Ichorid is not needed as a 4x of in Non-LED Dredge. I ran 4x of them originally and cut it down to 3x after extensive play of the deck. When you have 2 of them in the yard in the early game you will rarely ever want to reanimate more than 1. Late game 3x is more than enough (if it comes to a late game) and since this deck runs Tireless Tribe you are a LOT less Reliant on Ichorid. I reached 3x Ichorids after trial and error, just the number I prefer and the number run in 95+% of the extended builds because the focus of the deck is different. Plus with the addition if Tireless Tribe you don't need any more creatures to sacrifice. 4x Ichorid is not wrong if you want to run that many but it is really unneeded and the aggro plan with just 3x Ichorid is just as effective if not faster than LED Dredge.
Must Have 11 Dredge cards!
Originally I ran 10 dredgers 4x Stinkweed Imp, 4x Golgari Grave-Troll, and 2x Darkblast and the deck worked good but it just needed an additional dredger so I was forced to make a cut. Breakthrough is the most vulnerable card in the deck and you usually only want to see 1 per game since that is more than enough. And since my meta has a lot of Thresh in it anyway I am trying to get the maximum effect of this deck with minimal risk IE not relying on a single spell to win the game. That is why I only run 3x Breakthrough, it is a good card, but it makes the deck more vulnerable to counterspells.
Why 15 Lands?
15 lands is the reason this deck wins through hate cards so much better than LED dredge does (from my experience). I have won SO many games just because I am able to cast Narcomoebas and Stinkweed Imp, and you are able to do this with suprising consistency. I remember one game I got Extirpated 3 times (Bridge, Ichorid, and Dread Return) then Jotun Grunt removed my graveyard and I still won because I was able to cast Stinkweeds and Narcomoebas. Also, playing 15 lands drastically helps mulligans. When you are playing against Leyline of the Void it is so nice to have those extra lands to find Wispmare+ land in your opening hand. It also makes the deck way more resiliant against Wasteland. If you do end up running 15 lands don't play fetchlands because it opens the deck up even more to Stifle. The gold lands are the way to go.
Is Non-LED Dredge Really That Much Slower?
In short … no. In my opinion Non-LED Dredge is faster because it is more fixated on the combo and it truly will win on turns 2-4. It is just as fast as LED Dredge is when you take the aggro route to victory. But because this deck can not possibly win on turn 1 it is commonly referred to as “slow Dredge” but do not be deceived, it is every bit as fast a LED-based strategies. The reason this deck is able to keep pace is the consistency. Not relying on LED and DA to win games is a huge advantage.
How Does Non-LED Dredge Do in the Mirror Match?
I have played the mirror a total of 4 times in a tournament setting and I have never lost the matchup. I don't SB anything (unless I know they play Leyline of the Void). You could SB in Pithing Needle for PImp or Cechalid Colisseum since they are a lot more affected than you are by that. But normally I SB nothing and the mirror match is just who gets more dumb creatures in play faster. Darkblast is also key in this matchup since you can Darkblast your own creatures to remove their Bridges. One thing you could do, but only if you are on the play is SB in Chalice of the Void and drop it for 0 and then side them out when you are on the draw since they will play LED first anyway.
Decklist and Card Explanations
4x Careful Study
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Putrid Imp
4x Bridge from Below
4x Narcomoeba
3x Tireless Tribe
3x Ichorid
3x Dread Return
3x Darkblast
3x Breakthrough
3x Cabal Therapy
2x Cephalid Sage
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
4x Cephalid Colisseum
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass
2x Tarnished Citadel
1x Undiscovered Paradise
SB
4x Wispmare
4x Pithing Needle
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Chain of Vapor
Careful Study: As stated earlier, it acts as a mini-Breakthrough, discard outlet, counterspell and Tormod’s Crypt bait, and helps to find SB cards. Very important card for the deck.
Golgari Grave-Troll: Dredges for 6 and when Dread Returned it is MASSIVE.
Stinkweed Imp: Dredges for 5, brings Ichorid back, blocks Tarmogoyf if the game comes to it.
Putrid Imp: Discard outlet, swings at the opponent, and brings Ichorid back.
Bridge From Below: The deck is based around this, makes Zombies!
Narcomoeba: Free creature when dredged into and with 15 lands you can actually cast it if it is in your hand!
Tireless Tribe: Spectacular card, it stalls serious aggro decks so well and acts as a discard outlet. This deck will not work nearly as well without this card!
Ichorid: 3/1 Haste, free … yep he’s good in here.
Dread Return: Essential part of the combo, needed as a 3-of in Non-LED Dredge because it is crucial to speed and the ability to Dread Return multiple targets in a single turn is crucial.
Darkblast: Another very needed card. It stalls aggro, dredges, acts as its own discard outlet with lands in play, and removes hate cards.
Breakthrough: Essential part of the combo but the most vulnerable card in the deck. 4x is not wrong but 3x is most likely the correct call.
Cabal Therapy: Same as Breakthrough, it could be run as a 4x of or 1x could be in the SB as well.
Cephalid Sage: Essential part of the combo. 2x are necessary since the focus of this deck is on the combo rather than the aggro route and running something like Angel of Despair in this spot is sub-par.
Flame-Kin Zealot: Makes hasty 3/3 Zombies when Dread returned and wins games!
Cephalid Colisseum: Assists in dredging and with 15 lands you will have VERY minimal problems with 4.
Gemstone Mine: Gold land that doesn’t hurt you!
City of Brass: Gold land that doesn’t give the opponent creatures.
Tarnished Citadel: Worst land in the deck but it must be run as it beats out all the alternative Gold lands.
Undiscovered Paradise: Only good as a 1-of since it sucks in multiples and will occasionally assist in discarding if you are in a tight spot.
SB
The SB is all meta-dependent but I prefer to run:
Wispmare: I have seen Leyline of the Void recast VIA Dark Ritual to many times as well as Propaganda effects and Elephant Grass etc. In case you can’t win next turn it is great to have Wispmare there to kill hate cards and it can even be Dread Returned if necessary.
Pithing Needle: Has to be in every Dredge SB, it stops to many cards to list, and is the most common card sided in, play 4!
Chalice of the Void: In here to serve a few roles, but mainly to slow opposing combo decks from winning before we do but also can be used to stop Tormod’s Crypt.
Chain of Vapor: It is just nice to have this card in the SB as an “answer all” type of card. If you are unsure of the hate cards being sided in just put this in and hope for the best!
Matchup Analysis
Threshold
Very Favorable. 75% pre and post board. I have not kept track of the win statistics but the only time I have really lost to Threshold in a tournament setting was when I mulled into oblivion or mulled to very little cards and had my first spell countered. Proper SB techniques depend on what they play. Against Threshold it will usually be -1 Sage, -1 Dread Return, -2 Breakthrough, and +4 Pithing Needle. In this matchup Cabal Therapy should almost always name Engineered Explosives but it depends on how aggressive your draw is.
NOTE: This is just how I personally SB, there are right and wrong cards to side out but this is how I play the deck, there a numerous different ways to SB this deck properly.
Stiflenought/Dreadstill
Somewhat Favorable. Expect to win around 65% pre and post board. This matchup can be tough since they have a clock that can't be blocked by Tireless Tribe (more than once) and they play Trinket Mage to fetch Crypt. Board the same as Thresh. Be sure that when comboing off to watch their lands, if they have a blue mana open always Cabal Therapy them first naming Stifle.
Goblins
Extremely Favorable. Expect to win 90% pre board and 80% post. This is where Darkblast shines. You are not afraid of Mogg Fanatic at all and Darkblast on Lackey can severly stall them out. Just be cautious as some builds run Leyline in the SB and be prepared for that. Also watch Vial being kept at 1 and don't lose your Bridges to an unsuspecting Fanatic. I would SB like this: -1 Dread Return, -1 Sage, -1 Careful Study, -1 Breakthrough and +4 Pithing Needle and against Leyline just put in 4 Wispmare since you can already handle Fanatics.
Storm Combo
Not Good. Expect to win around 25% pre-board and 35-45% post board. This matchup varies greatly but if you are playing against TES or FT they are a lot less affected by Chalice than Belcher is. If you have a choice as to what combo deck to play against you want Belcher since you can easily race 14ish goblin tokens! SB would be -4 Careful Study +4 Chalice of the Void. Mull into Chalice or Cabal Therapy and just hope you are able to race them.
Aggro Loam
Extremely Favorable. Expect to win about 90% pre board and 75% post. The only thing they can do to win is open with Leyline and drop turn 1 Chalice but since the addition of Wispmare Chalice no longer stops our answer for Leyline! A lot of builds don't play Leyline anymore but if they are running Leyline I would go: -1 Dread Return, -1 Sage, -1 Careful Study, -1 Breakthrough, +4 Wispmare. Therapy for whatever would hurt the most usually Engineered Explosives.
Landstill
Extremely Favorable. Expect to win 80% pre and post board. Depending on how much hate they have this matchup is usually very easy. Just watch for Stifles and SB the same as Thresh. Deed can be problematic but usually isn't enough to stop Dredge!
Enchantress
Amazingly Unfavorable. Seriously, expect to win maybe 10% of the time pre and post board. Even with Wispmare it just awful. Everything they have just dominates us. Cabal Therapy Elephant Grass usually. The only chance of winning this matchup is going super fast or catching them off guard with a Wispmare then a combo out!
Armageddon Stax and Lands!/Eternal Garden
Very Unfavorable. I grouped these together because they are both hideous matchups and employ the same game plan but are thankfully not very common in my meta! Expect to win maybe 15% of the time and that is being generous pre and post board. Garden is the worst matchup of all since they run Crop Rotation into Glacial Chasm and ..... we have no answers for Glacial Chasm. Stax has prison effects and 3Spheres backed up by land destruction. The only plan is to go super fast. Therapy usually names Ghostly Prison but that won't be to relevant. Board something like -4 Careful Study and +3 Chain of Vapor, +1 Wispmare.
Last edited by Pulp_Fiction; 12-03-2008 at 04:14 PM.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
"In short, this build is just as fast but can't win on turn 1 and is infinitely more consistent.
It is just as fast, only not as fast... - I laughed so hard I "lol"ed a little
I think the term infinitely may be a little strong
Surely this deck does not deserve its own thread? the changes... *change* is such a small one - its like making a new MUC thread because you take out back to basics and run some no basic lands...
There is not anywhere near as significant a difference as there is between TES and FT which obviously, though both storm combo, are very different in the way they implement getting to 10 storm
Have you tried out a fetchable manabase?
This really just makes absolutely no sense to me. Why would you want to give up one of the most attractive parts of Ichorid - winning the first game quickly? In the postboard games, you can side out LED and Deep Analysis if you want a more consistent deck to fight hate. Look at EPIC Painter for example: the deck runs a cheap combo to win an easy game one, then boards into a better aggro-control deck with Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker.
If you're really bent on this idea, I think running 4 Cabal Therapy, 4 Unmask, and 4 Dread Return (because, you know, you feel it's rather crucial) would make a lot of sense. I also think running a large dude, such as Empyrial Archangel, Simic Sky Swallower, or Akroma, Angel of Fury, instead of Flame-Kin Zealot could be beneficial. Running a slower version of Ichorid means Landstill, Dreadstill, and Thresh get Engineered Explosives active by the time you get to combo. Zombie tokens rather fragile compared to big guys that are hard to remove.
I'd seriously consider replacing Breakthrough for Brainstorm, altho' your deck becomes more reliant on Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe, being able to draw cards with out discarding your hand gives you a lot of resiliency vs Tormod's Crypt.
I'm not a fan of replacing Thugs with Blasts, you're pigeon holing yourself into the when the main point of cutting LED is to get away from the combo to begin with. Also, running 15 lands and not running Tolarian Winds just seems wasteful, I'd be all over Tolarian Winds and Mystical Tutor at that rate.
Originally Posted by wastedlife
I have to agree here. I ran a Friggorid port way back when after it showed up in Extended (before NarcoBridge), and Tolarian Winds is simply the nut high in any version of the deck that doesn't rely on LED. It pretty much does everything you want to do. I can only imagine that it would get much, much more powerful when you have NarcoBridge, as it allows you to win the turn you cast Tolarian Winds as opposed to the turn after.
Not this, though. Running Tolarian Winds is enough, IMO.
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@slobad23: Trying to describe how a Dredge deck plays is hard. Its one of the weirdest decks ever in Magic since it wins by discarding its hand and milling itself and it forces your opponent to NOT play discard spells and destroy their own creatures .....
@:Waikiki: Fetches should not be played because they open the deck up to a premature Stifle which could greatly affect the deck, plus there is no B/W/U land that you can fetch and it is vital to have access to any color mana at any point.
@BreathWeapon: I agree on Brainstorm but if your hand consists of: land, land, dredger, dredger, brainstorm, dreturn, and bridge Careful Study would be just superior. Brainstorm would most likely slow the deck up a LOT and personally I prefer Careful Study because generally your opponent Crypts you as soon as you drop a GGT into the yard to prevent the crazy shenanigans from happening. Careful Study is a serious bait spell. Brainstorm would be fantastic if it made you discard.
Tolarian Winds is run in some of the extended builds (a little more than half I think) but it is a lot like a super vulnerable Breakthrough. Extended does not have to play around stuff like Daze and Winds also opens you up to Spell Snare as well. Breakthrough is so good since it can evade Chalice as well as the previous mentioned counters. Now it could be a SB option against opposing storm combo or anything that may drop Turn 1 Chalice (worst play this deck could possibly see)@1. It is a near guarnteed second turn kill. You have to be REALLY unlucky to not win after this resolves. I briefly tested it when I ran Dredge in Extended and found it to be unnecessary with Breakthroughs and everything else. But it could certainly have potential in the SB.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Comparing Brainstorm to Careful Study doesn't make sense when you're considering replacing Breakthrough, while Brainstorm has its limitations and it's not as explosive as Breakthrough, I find LEDless Ichorid's strength is in using the creature based discard outlets and cantrips to play around the "all in" mentality that gets smashed by Tormod's Crypt and co.
Also, you're seriously overrating Breakthrough, even off the Breakthrough + LED + DA chains the deck wont always "go off." I find the whole combo mentality overrated, you beat control and aggro-control regardless with DDD game 1, the rest of the deck is to play around hate and speed up against Goblins and co.
I began to appreciate this deck ( the non -LED version), and i want ask you: have someone taken into account lotus petal, instead of the additional 3 "crappy " lands ( i refer to the tarnished and the undiscovered, which are awful, but the only stuff avaiable to get golden mana.. glimmervoid would die, and forbidden orchard is just cotnroproductive with the aim of the deck)?
I think that lotus petal would give that bit of "explosivesness " lost because of the lack of LED, and would seriously help us pumping the mana a little bit higher to carry on the developing of the combo- many times i found myself compelled to wait another turn just because I didn't have ebough mana to cast another careful study and / or breakthrough, and it was a pity to waste another turn and risk getting crypted/extirpated.
Another thing abut the first list posted: I know that darkblast can really be good, but in my opinion it's not true that dredging 3 or dredging 4 makes almost no difference. It makes an enormous difference. In that extra card , you can find an ichorid or a bridge, or even dread return or whatever else. And i think that the black creatures count with darkblast ( and without golgari thug) wuld be really too low ( only the stinkweed imps - which sometimes you dredge, not having the trolls- and the putrid imp... 8 creatures-because you usually don't want to remove ichorid for another ichorid- is really low). I prefer golgari thug, both for dredging more, and being a creature.
However, i really like the inclusion of tireless tribe. That card's a bomb to stop for a bit aggro ( in particular goblins, where it can function as a blocker and so "substituing " the slowing role darkblast would have here ), and it's almost good as putrid imp, the only difference of course is given by the fact that it's not black and so not pitchable to ichorid. But i really like the 7- discarders suite, it gives this deck that feature of consistency and " not all-in-the-graveyard-in-a-row" which allows to control better the game and face threats sided in ( or maindecked).
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I flat out never liked Tolarian Winds. The only time I thought it was useful was when I had a grip of dredgers, and the two mana open plus hitting them with a discard spell to see their hand. Otherwise, it's no different than relying on Breakthrough + LED (explosive but high risk and little reward). Yes it's got great potential and is instant speed, but the focus of this version is "dredge when I want, win when I want". There's no need to pack much more than Careful Study, Coliseum and other "slow" draws. I actually tweaked my list to include more draw outlets than most versions, in order to make for more consistent use of dredging, rather than doing 2/3-for-1s off single spells.
While my list is still closer to the "original" theme than this one, it's still an LEDless version, and I personally still favor it greatly. LED insanity is just unwarranted, the low percentage of turn 1 wins with that deck while still packing any concept of protection (being nearly completely reliant on Unmask in order to protect going off, for example) just seemed useless to me. There's nothing short of Storm combo that you NEED to beat that quickly, and even the standard lists of Ichorid pack it in a majority of the time to TES and it's kin.
The thing that people seem to not understand with this concept is that it plays VERY differently from standard lists. We don't go all in, ever. There's no point. A majority of the games knocking them down with flying deathtouch (and recurring) 1/2s, hasted recurring 3/1s, the occasional stack of 2/2 tokens and the 2/2 flyers that can't block, it's a swarm mentality. The deck lives and dies by total war. This IS Ichorid, not dredge. It's consistency is the fact that it can offer more slots for protection, more potential for draw, and more reliable resources, while still having a turn 3 average (a mere half a turn slower than LED/Breakthrough based lists).
While I would still run my list over this one, I have taken note of some changes I could see being far more useful. I'm definitely going to look into swapping out the Thugs for Darkblast, as it's got some great use. Jailer, Fanatic, Lackey and even mirror match Moebas, Ichorids and PImps all deserve recognition here. I may or may not cut Unmask completely, and if I did I'd be interested in upping the land count and consider testing Tribe and Wispmare.
I would greatly consider finding slots for Street Wraith, however. In LEDless lists, he's an absolute MVP. Uncounterable, life loss is of little consequence, fuels Ichorid recursions, and instant speed.
For another concept I can list my latest run with the deck later on, which went almost completely U/B in order to fit in a couple basics to absolutely dodge LD hate. I wouldn't say the list is any better, but my personal style and local metagame has had heavy influence in how it's tuned.
For now though, I need sleep.
@Piceli89: Lotus Petal is certainly an option but I have never tested it. However, playing Lotus Petal does open the deck up a little more to Stifle/Trickbind (which is why I don't like running fetchlands also). You could effectively win on turn 1 with land, PImp, Petal, GGT, Breakthrough, GGT, random card. How often this would happen I have no idea, but it is interesting. The discard effect from Undiscovered Paradise is barely ever relevant and taking a Lightning Bolt from a land in order to cast something is awful but the fact that they are permanently in play is why I would most likely run them over Lotus Petal. One time use mana is good for acceleration but requires that semi-all-in kind of effect. With 15 lands you can reliably cast much needed spells (continuously) and if you already used a Lotus Petal it would be VERY difficult to cast a Stinkweed or something which really does have relevance. As far as Darkblast goes, I love the card and would never consider Thug in its place, I have won so many games being able to remove creatures and stall things out thats its ridiculous. There is no correct choice between Thug and Darkblast, its all preference, but Darkblast gives the deck a spectacular resiliency to suprise cards like Jailer.
@DeathwingZERO: I have never liked Unmask in the deck, I tried it (in testing only) and never found excess black cards in my hand that I was willing to remove from the game so I simply don't like it. Do you have an updated list of your Street Wraith Version?
@BreathWeapon: I tried out Tolarian Winds the other day and really disliked the card. Now I remember why I didn't play it in extended. Its those hands with 1x land that are soo good and you look at Tolarian Winds as your draw spell and think ... "I only have one land in my hand and won't be drawing ever again". The card is amazing and if no thought is put into what are dredging you could easily deck yourself after it resolves. But still, since it requires 2 mana and gets hideous the more you mulligan I would not run it. Running only 1cc draw spells is the way to go as you avoid Spell Snare and oftentimes you are able to play around Daze with extra mana, neither of which you can do with Winds.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
@Pulp fiction: why lotus petal would give access to stifle/trickbind ? A mana ability can't be stifled/trickbinded. Or am i missing something else ?
However, for the darkblast, i consider that thinking to use darkblast not as a dredger, but as an effective spell would slow the deck to much. It's ok that this one is a more "controllish" version, but let's don't forget that we are not a control deck. At a certain point, you must go off, and i think that stopping nd beginning to darkblast would slow the im of the deck too much. If you fear pesky jailers /fanatics, side in chain of vapor, but it's better not to abuse too much of darkblast as a "spell", IMHO.
@the guy ho suggested street wraith: Street wraith is fantastic, i used it and allowed me to begin dredging from the first turn, but i really don't find a room for it, it would require cutting something else and the list Pulp fiction posted is really good and balanced. WOuld you mind to post your own version ? It could be interesting.
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Thank you Pulp for starting this thread and taking time to give all the explanations. I also prefer the Non-LED based version.
I use 3 Petal Lotus instead of the "crappy" lands (like Piceli says). It gives the turn 1 win (land, petal, breakthrough, dredger, Putid) and it does not blast you when you use it. I definitely recommand you to try it.
I would never prefer to have a second land instead in my opening hand as two mana first turn and one mana (or 2) second turn seems to always be enough.
Having it without a land does not happen often and may still be keepable anyway.
I play the last breakthrough instead of the third tireless tribe. To compensate,
I tend to use my careful studies a little more as a discarder than as a mini breakthrough.
Currently you have 14 ways to discard a dredger (putrid imp, tireless tribe, carefull study, cabal therapy) and only 7 ways to draw (breakthrough and careful study).
Usually, to go combo you want one of each. So going 13 discard and 8 drawer would increase your chances to have one of each.
For example a hand with Land+dredger+(careful study or putrid Imp)+breakthrough is better than Land+dredger+(careful study or putrid Imp)+tireless tribe. This is even truer if your opening hand further comprises a Lous Petal.
I play Yosei, the morning star instead of Flame-Kin Zealot. I think it let you win more often as you may attack with more Ichorids and with more tokens one turn later. Yosei is better in that build that in the LED-version because the situation where dread returning the FKZ would not be enough to kill will arise more often without the Deep analysis to dredge more. It is not exactly the large dude that Jaynel talks about but it is a little closer.
I play one more cabal therapy and one less narcoameoba.
When I have two bridges in the graveyard, I prefer to have 1 putrid Imp and 1 narcoamoeba in play and 1 cabal therapy in the yard than 1 putrid Imp and 2 narcoamoeba in play.
I also prefer to have one cabal therapy in my opening hand than one narcoamoeba.
This should be even more relevant in your deck because with 7 putrid imps you will be even more likely to have 3 creatures in play.
I do play the Golgari Thug instead of Darkblast. I will test it. I agree with you that it is never difficult to feed the ichorids but I am concern with the dredge 3 instead of 4.
Quite a few differences but our deck lists have the same number of mana sources (15) of dredgers (11) of Drawers/Discarders (14) and of cards to be "put in the yard" (20).
I have tested the Tolarian winds (+2 instead of the 2 tireless tribes). I agree with you: it is not optimal, even in my built where I can play it turn 1.
A hand with petal+land+dredger+tolarian wind is not the auto-win you may think of at first sight; the 25 cards in the yard will not always comprise 1 dread return, 1 cephalid sage, 1 cabal therapy, 2 narcoamoebas, and 2 bridges. And you will find yourself topdecking with 4 dredgers in hand.
Street Wraith is definitely better here than in the LED deck because we will Mulligan less often. However I do not see which card to replace and I am also curious to see the list of Deathwing.
Does anybody have tested Eternal Witness instead of Cephalid Sage ?
Eternal Witness is significantly less busted in this version than in LED lists, simply because they employ LED. Another thing to consider with Witness is being able to recur the burn that Parcher's list has been doing as of late, another addition we don't really have much reason to abuse.
I'm still not sold on Lotus Petal. I did significant testing with it, and it just seemed sub-par. The later the game gets, the more reason I wanted permanent mana sources, not temporary ones. And the first turn kill (in both versions) is so absolute in it's necessity to dredge the right cards that I just flat out disregard it as an option in most cases.
Interestingly enough, the inclusion of Street Wraiths to my LEDless build DID give me back the option to do the turn one win, but it's just not worth it. I almost always preferred setting up for the turn 2 kill, giving myself more access and abuse with Therapy (and dredge at opponents EoT or my upkeep after triggering Ichorids). If in the 3-5% or so chance that I can pull the turn one without ripping my hand, I'll do it, but other than that, turn two is almost always guaranteed anyways.
I will admit that my U/B list I was recently testing with did make use of 4 Polluted Deltas. This was mainly because I considered a manabase of
4 Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Coliseum
2 Swamp
1 Island
To be significant enough in balancing out colors. With very little need to bounce between black or blue in the same turn (black is always a first turn run for discard, blue turn two and beyond for draw, etc) I found this to be both consistent and stable. If of course you would run into decks that can hinder the Deltas (Stifle/Trickbind), swap them out for Gemstone Mine or City, with minimal drawback.
I am also still thinking Unmask is becoming unnecessary in this build. Very little actually leaves the hand in higher numbers than 1 for 1, with the exception of Breakthrough and Study, and the control over what is discarded means it's much easier to play around game one hate, rather than having to rip it out of their hand.
I'll get a hold of my buddy and get my list together and post it later on tonight. It'll look strange, but I can always explain choices as the questions come up.
I fully agree. I have never tested Eternal Witness but everytime I dread return a Cephalid Sage I ask to myself: "would EW be any better here?" and the answer is always no. The possibility to draw 4 with Breakthrough is just overkill as drawing 3 with Sage is always enough.
Lotus Petal does not just allow to kill turn 1 instead of turn 2 but also to kill turn 2 instead of turn 3. The pace it gives helps to win faster game 1 and to play antihate sooner in the other games (such as playing and flashbacking cabal therapy on putrid imp on the first turn).
I do not feel the need to have more than 2 lands, even in the late game. If you are really concerned by your number of lands in the late game, what about playing one dakmor salvage and two Petals?
Eager to see how you fit the street wraith in!
"LEDfree Ichorid"
Graveyard abusers: 12
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge
4 Therapy
Dredgers: 11
4 Troll
4 STImp
3 Thug/Darkblast (will be testing this)
Combo: 8
4 Narcomoeba
2 Dread Return
1 Sage
1 Flame Kin
Draw: 10
4 Careful Study
2 Breakthrough
4 Street Wraith
Discard: 4
4 PImp
Mana: 15
4 Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Swamp
1 Island
Sideboard:
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Pithing Needle
3 Unmask
One thing I noticed about the build not abusing LED is that there's far more freedom in how you want to get to victory. Recurring Ichorids, FKZ/zombie combo, or straight up flying weenies all provide useful outs.
I initially had the Unmasks in the main, but when going up to the 15 lands, I decided to throw them into the board in case I really needed them. With the inclusion of Street Wraith to push first turn draw potential "spells" up to ten, pitching something black wasn't ever a problem.
The U/B concentration is strictly for being able to work under pressure against the manabase. In my meta there's a number of decks tuned to abuse nonbasics, whether it be B2B, PoP, Wastelands, etc....I just decided throwing a couple basics in with the fetches to be well worth it. Two mana is pretty much optimal, and 3 will cast everything crucial in the deck short of hardcasting Dread, so I decided that would be the correct number of basics to employ.
The sideboard is solely there to get past whatever permanent based hate (especially enchantment and artifacts) the opponent decides to toss at me. With the ability to draw instantly (and free) via Wraith, EoT Mystical Tutor is a godsend. Even without using Wraith, Careful Study and Coliseum are still viable options, because the hand size is usually fairly large. Needles are still being tested, but so far I've enjoyed them being able to preemptively answer things like Keg, Deed, and EE.
One fear I had was the semi-present Chalice of the Void, but I found that them putting it down at one charge typically either required them to be playing a relatively "slow" deck (Stompy or Stax variants), or ones I could simply DDD through and attempt to get to as much mana as possible in case Trinisphere hit. It's surprising how little the deck packed with 1cc spells cares about Chalice.
As for the small amount of permanent based discard, I've found that to be of little consequence. My opening hand doesn't require seeing PImp, he just makes the first turn play an automatic one. Between Careful Study, Breakthrough, and PImp, I have plenty of options in the first turn to throw something away, and from there use my draw or Wraiths to punch out the dredging. In goldfishing, the deck never failed to average a turn three kill, and through various stages of testing, it's still been able to claim the ever ridiculous "I win against 90% of the field game one".
If I were to put in the Tribes, it would require a return to the "old" manabase of Gemstones, City and some other gold lands tossed in (I was actually considering Undiscovered Paradise, a la TES style, which worked out pretty well surprisingly), and probably knocking down single copies of things like Moeba, Ichorid, and a land (to 14), to fit either three or four of them in. I'll definitely be keeping my options open there, as I like the idea of using them to chump heavy hitters like Goyf and such, while still keeping the discard outlet alive.
@Deathwingzero: i tested your list and it meddles me a lot, but how do you find yourself with only 2x of breakthrough ? i always thought that it was the key card which granted the deck to throw half itself in one shot. Am i wrong ? perhaps i still haven't understood the aim of the deck sufficiently, but breakthrough seemed to me to be very "decisive " for the development of the combo.
For what concerns the lotus petal , believe me, they really do push this "underpowered " version of the deck to that bit of explosiveness which allows it to be as fast as Led-with version, just keeping its consistency.
Testing your list, i also began to think that tireless tribe isn't required anymore, but maybe i got lucky in playtesting and i'll soon change my mind. However, would exactly would you cut for 3x- which is the right quantity, i guess- ?
Narcomoeba is necessary in 4x, ichorid too (at least, almost), maybe a street wraith would be cuttable. What do you guys think ?
EDIT: after some testing(goldfishing), i came to the conclusion that 2x of tireless tribe is required, it would increase the count of discarders-outlets to 6, which isn't bad, and would allow to dredge turn 1 with SW more easily. 2x because i don't want to divert the nature of the deck too much, the list by deathwing is good enough.
I only wish it contained a maindecked alternate win condition.. i really appreciate akroma (the white one ) for being a good blocker and a furious, immediate beater...
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If I were to throw in only 2 Tribes, I'd cut 1 Ichorid and 1 Moeba. Neither are necessary for the deck's function as a 4-of, so cutting those back wouldn't be a problem at all. To include 3, I would cut back to 14 lands, as cutting anything else starts to get into interfering with the strategic "core" of the deck, draw/discard/dredge.
To be honest, I cut Narcomoeba back to a 3 of a while ago. I only just put it back in when I finalized my list last night, after cutting the 3x Unmask to the SB. If they were still in the main, a few cards would have had to change.
With the addition of Lotus Petal, the deck would have to change a lot, and in my opinion it goes back to being more unstable (though still less than LED lists). First, I'd have to up the count of Breakthrough, which is in my opinion the single worst card in the deck currently. I got away from the LED lists because of Breakthrough and LED, simply because I saw no point in ditching my hand entirely without protection. If Breakthrough resolved, that's great, I would most likely win there. If it didn't, however, I would burn for 3 (unless I was lucky enough to be holding a DA), and have no cards in hand, and out a turn. "Explosiveness" comes with a drawback, and that drawback is relying more on what your opponent is playing.
This is also the main reason why Breakthrough is only a 2-of. I rely far more on Careful Study, PImp and Street Wraith to get the engine running, and Coliseum to be my explosiveness. The other reason is that it's significantly weaker with no LED and DA. The three cards worked together so well that cutting back one often severely crippled the power of the other two. DA was in my opinion the weakest of the cards in LED Ichorid, and upon cutting that it basically proved to me that LED was only good if I had Breakthrough or Coliseum in play. I don't like situational (potential) ball-busters, so I ditched LED and knocked down Breakthrough, to keep a little oomph when needed.
In goldfishing and testing, I noticed that I was putting far more pressure on the opponent through Ichorid and other creatures, as opposed to zombie hordes. This lead me to believe that there's no need to be explosive if there's not as much need for the combo to resolve. When you've got recurring creatures via Ichorid, Thug (hitting the yard and throwing a Moeba on top of the deck is simply ridiculous, and makes for retarded recurring blockers), and dredgers able to come back on their own, the combo aspect of the deck is just a nice "win now" feature.
Hope this gives a little more insight into how I pilot the deck, and reasoning behind some choices over others.
EDIT: If I were to personally throw in a singleton Dread Return target to be a "fattie" that is good to use, I'd stick with the old manabase and use Sundering Titan, or with the either manabase and go with Angel of Despair. Titan is just a nuisance that Goyfs and the like will never get by, and blocks all but 2 damage from a Dreadnought, and Angel for decks packing Elephant Grass, etc....so you can push through the army. Akroma is nice, but she has no utility. If there's a reason I need an alternate win condition from Troll, it's because I can't attack or I need to balance the resource battle (like Titan vs Survival/Rock builds, for example).
@Deathwingzero: i'm testing intensively your list, just with 3 lotus petal and the golden manabase instead of the U/B lands, and it performs well. I changed my mind again (even if in few times i had no discarder so i had to wait for 8 cards in hand to begin dredging), perhaps tribes aren't required anymore, also since to put them, it should be necessary to cut something important ( ichorid or moebas), and i can really swear that ichorid really does win games alone, even more than the zomies army. A fast ichorid hittins since the second turn, well fueled by the wraiths and the imps,leaves the opponent with such a pressure on his head that he's compelled to quickly face our race ( good rhyme here).. and not all the decks can do that.
I'm still a little unconvinced on the 2x of breakthrough, but it performs well. Cephalid coliseum is far better and its ability can be "controlled" much more than breakthrough, which is almost always a "all in".
I wanna ask how do you" circumvent" the obstacles of this deck since the first games ( but also after Sb), especially extirpate. That card is a pain in the ass, and often extirpating a dredger ( GGT most of all) can really blow away our game. How do you deal with an opponent that you know plays extirpate ?Which are the "tricks " to deceive him?
Another thing i'd like to know is whether the deck can restart quickly after a tormod's crypt/ relic of progenitus ( the 2nd ability, obv) has hit. It doesn't always happens that i find pithing needle in the opening hand with a land and it doesn't get countered... In reality, it never happens
Last thing / (sorry if i abuse of your patience, but i'm still quite new of the deck and so i've got to learn a bit more): how YOUR version of the deck performs against threshold and, in generally, blue based aggro-control decks ? Does street wraith really give that uncounterable boost which is fundamental to be fast and go off in spite of counters, or the deck still requires passing through some careful studies and breakthroughs to combo out completely ? I ask you this because i fear that a good player could know what to counter/stifle ( the "draw" tools) and leave us with a hand full of useless dredgers while its fucking tarmogoyf smashes our face..
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As a person who plays both ichorid and lists that play Extirpate and have other Ichorid players in my meta, it's my opinion that whoever extirpated your GGT is a complete and total moron. Not to mention that if you are playing against a deck that runs Extirpate (Wish-Still varients and some storm combo are the only things I'm really aware of that play them), you should have sided in Chalice of the Void anyway.
I think in a non-LED Ichorid list, Tireless Tribe will always be a necessary element as there's that little thing called Pithing Needle.
I don't understand the use of Petal. It sounds horrible, and we tested it in LED versions and found it to be absolutely terrible there. I can't see a difference that would make it better here. In fact, it seems that with 15 lands it would be even more useless.
Pce,
--DC
Schadenfreude is the most genuine kind of joy, since it doesn't include even a drop of envy.Why can't we just admit it?
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