Note: This thread is for the discussion and further development of Blue/Green/White Threshold only. Discussions on the other color splashes can be found elsewhere. As this thread is in the LMF, it will be heavily moderated to keep the discussion relevant and on-topic.
"Legacy Blue/Green/White Threshold"
I. Overview: What Threshold is About and How it Works
Threshold is the premier Aggro-Control deck in the current Legacy format. It's based around the eponymous Odyssey-block Threshold beaters, the best Blue and White control cards in the format and its characteristic low land count (only 17-18). The ultra-low curve of the deck, its free counters and plentiful cantrips allow it to play an aggressive tempo strategy to stomp randomness, go head-to-head with aggro, annoy dedicated control decks, and roll over combo--like Reset High Tide ("Solidarity") and Ill-Gotten Gains Combo ("IGGy Pop")--with its quick and efficient clock, Meddling Magi and copious arsenal of countermagic.
What sets Threshold apart from its more control-oriented peers that are also based around Blue spells, is the resiliency and cost-efficiency of its namesake threshold creatures. For a mere 1GG, you can drop 7-power of creature on the board ('Goose and 'Bear)--comfortably tapping out to do so because of FoW and Daze--and maintain your momentum with your counters to inflict fatal damage.
II. History and Proven Lists
Originally modeled after the 2001-02 era Extended Gro archetype, Legacy Threshold enjoyed a respectable amount of forum chatter, but with a lack of any meaningful events and willing/competent pilots, the deck remained a fairly anonymous Internet curio*.
This abruptly changed when Ian MacInnes (aka Cavern Ninja) took his "Dryadless Gro" deck (aka "Not Quite Gro" aka "NQG") to a First Place victory at Big Arse II (July 2005) in Syracuse, New York. His was the first public list to eschew maindeck Quirion Dryad, a perennial favorite of Johnnies and faux-Spikes the world over, and replace her with combo-busting goodness of Meddling Mage. And lo', the world rejoiced.
Legacy U/G/W Threshold
First Place. Big Arse II (July 2005)
by Ian MacInnes aka 'Cavern Ninja'
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Predict
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
2 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant
4 Werebear
4 Meddling Mage
2 Mystic Enforcers
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Forest
Sideboard
3 Nimble Mongoose
3 Armageddon
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tivadar’s Crusade
2 Honorable Passage
2 Phyrexian Furnace
If BA2 placed Threshold on the map, it was the deck's phenomenal success at Legacy's first Grand Prix (Philadelphia, November 2005), that had the Legacy community**, taking the deck seriously as a legitimate "Deck to Beat."
When the dust had settled, our own Ben Goodman (aka Ridiculous Hat) and Vintage Threshold pioneer Lam Phan (developer of "Bird Shit") had made the Top 8 with U/G/W Threshold, while Pat MacGregor took 6th place with U/G/R Threshold. Oh, how the champagne flowed.
Legacy U/G/W Threshold
Seventh Place. Grand Prix: Philadelphia (November 2005)
by Ben Goodman aka 'Ridiculous Hat'
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Predict
3 Sleight Of Hand
4 Force Of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
1 Disrupting Shoal
4 Swords To Plowshares
3 Pithing Needle
4 Meddling Mage
4 Werebear
3 Mystic Enforcer
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
Sideboard
4 Hydroblast
3 Nimble Mongoose
3 Armageddon
3 Tivadar's Crusade
2 Engineered Explosives
(A link to Ben's GP: Philly tournament report can be found at the end of this post.)
A mere five weeks later, at Grand Prix: Lille, Threshold placed yet another three people into the Top 8, but this time, they were all in the Top 3! Helmut Summersberger won the whole chimichanga with the new kid on the block: 4-color Threshold (U/G/r/w), besting Daniel Krutil with his teched out U/G/W Thresh in the finals. Nicolas Labarre made third place with U/G/R--which saw the return of Quirion Dryad and Isochron Scepter.
Legacy U/G/W Threshold
Second Place. Grand Prix: Lille (December 2005)
by Daniel Krutil
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
3 Predict
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Worship
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Galina's Knight
2 Meddling Mage
2 Mystic Enforcer
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Forest
Sideboard
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Pithing Needle
3 Stifle
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Meddling Mage
2 Armageddon
Stand-out tech in the Krutil list includes maindeck Worship and Galina's Knight as well as Umezawa's Jitte in the sideboard.
But the story does not end there. With frequent success at the local level, as documented at morphling.de and in scattered tournament reports, Alix Hatfield (aka "Obfuscate Freely") with U/G/W Threshold would go on to split with Mike Herbig's High Tide in the finals of Kadilak's Dual Land Draft II this past April in Syracuse.
Legacy U/G/W Threshold
First Place (split). Kadilak's Dual Land Draft II (April 2006)
by Alix Hatfield
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Portent
4 Predict
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pithing Needle
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Mystic Enforcer
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Windswept Heath
3 Island
1 Forest
Sideboard
4 Tividar's Crusade
3 Nantuko Monastery
3 Naturalize
3 Meddling Mage
2 Blue Elemental Blast
(Update: I don't want this post to collapse under the weight of so many decklists, but I'll just mention that U/G/W Threshold also won Star City Games Duel for Duals III (July 8, 2006). You can see the list here.)
III. Thresh vs. The World
If you want some general pointers on how to play Threshold, see parts two and four of my Threshold series--including suggestions on which spells to have your Meddling Magi chanting against. But the real challenge of playing Thresh, from a novice's point of view, is knowing what matters at each phase of the game and in each match. The deck runs a enough counters to stop almost anything, but not enough that you can counter everything. Consequently, the difference between an average player and a strong player is knowing when it's safe to let Umezawa's Jitte (etc.) resolve, and when it needs to be stopped.
When I play the deck, I'm looking to get into a position where I don't care if [x] resolves (be it a Psychatog or Goblin Lackey), since I either have an alternate plan to deal with it, that doesn't involve my counters, or that the threat is irrelevant and my opponent may as well have played Didgeridoo since I plan on winning shortly.
vs. Goblins
This match can go either way and I'd say the match is somewhat in Goblins favor. Preboard, you have 12 ways to stop a first turn Lackey on the draw, and a full 26 ways to stop Lackey on the play. Mongoose is your Incinerator-proof Piledriver and Lackey chumper. If you draw enough removal, you can beat your opponent down with your ground pounders, but if the ground is locked up in a stalemate, you can win with the ultimate stalemate buster: Mystic Enforcer.
Tips:
- Don't be afraid to trade your Mongoose for a Lackey or a Werebear for a Piledriver
- Unless you're a gambler (and a bad one), fetch your basics first
- BEB Piledriver when he's on the stack (he's Pro: Blue when on the board)
vs. Sligh, Burn, R/G
Favorable. The burn player gets approximately three points of damage out of each of its spells, and Thresh gets approximately 7 damage of its. Compare Lightning Bolt for R with Mongoose for G and Incinerate for 1R with Werebear for 1G and you'll see what I mean. Thresh puts the Red deck on a menacing clock and needs only to stabilize at < 5 life. Then things get ugly with Hydroblast and the vicious Worship--for those who go that route.
Tips:
- Don't be afraid to soak up damage
- Cursed Scroll can be easily raced
- If Wasteland/Price of Progress...blah-blah-blah...fetch basic lands
- StP'ing your dudes is often the right play
vs. Affinity
Peculiarly favorable. It's strange, but I don't think I've ever lost a match to Affinity. I cover the match at some length in Part 4 of the Thresh Primer--so you might check that out if you haven't read it before. The games seems to progress to a land-based standstill and then, like Superman, Mystic Enforcer arrives to clobber my opponent silly.
Tips:
- Daze whatever the hell you can (well not, um, Chromatic Sphere), because Daze becomes useless quicker than usual
- Mage on Cranial Plating is often best
- If Vial is on the board, obviously don't set your Magi on opposing d00ds
- Don't be afraid to trade Werebears with Myr Enforcers
- Engineered Explosives beats the piss out of Ravagers, Atogs, Plating (two counters)
vs. Angel Stompy
Roughly even. I've played against Zilla a few times and it seems roughly equal. Angel Stompy has more dudes, but pound-for-pound, they're weaker than Thresh's. If Thresh devotes its control cards to containing the white deck's critters, it can safely let the equipment accumulate on the board with no one to wield them. Engineered Explosives, for those who play them, easily nets a two/three-for-one. Post-board, Tormod's Crypt goes a long way to making the match far more difficult for the Thresh player.
Tips:
- Explosives for 0 nukes face-down Angels and moxen
- Mongoose is immune to Parallax Wave--don't forget that
- Mystic Enforcer is a monster
- If you go to Thailand, remember to bring condoms
vs. W/R Rifter
Unfavorable. Meddling Mage should be set to "Swords to Plowshares" and all of your countermagic should be held for Humility. That card sucks. The best way I've found to win is to deny Rifter the late game it wants and put your opponent under quick and aggressive pressure. Rifter's life gain can also be a pain in the ass when you're within striking distance. Finally, Thresh gets a hell of lot of mileage out of single Armageddon
Tips:
- Save your counters for Humility
- Win quickly or you probably won't win at all
- Pithing Needle has a lot of juicy targets (Eternal Dragon, DoJ, Steppe/Cave, etc.)--consider them carefully
vs. High Tide and IGGy Pop/any storm-based combo deck
Highly favorable. Pleasantly, Thresh beats the ever-living piss out of any storm-based combo deck. The match percentages against combo are one of the things that make Thresh an attractive deck to play. Against High Tide I set my first Mage to "High Tide," against Tendrils decks, name the kill card and make them work for their bounce. Against Reset versions of High Tide, be careful about tapping out when you have Counterspell (even if you don't if you can afford to bluff) and casting too many spells per turn.
Tips:
- Don't get overconfidant
- Tendrils of Agony is a sorcery so play all of your spells on your turn
vs. Survival
Slightly favorable. I've heard that a lot of people would bet on Survival in this match, but my experiences would have me betting on Thresh, if the pilot knew what he was doing. Needle is gold, Meddling Mage is awesome, Birds are weak, and if you can keep Survival off the board (or contained with Pithing Needle) there's nothing you really can't deal with. Obviously, an active SotF makes the game much more annoying.
Tips:
- Be prepared to fight a slow battle of attrition when you reach the late game
- Survival is by far the most powerful card in their deck (the deck is freaking named after it, after all); be sure to aim all of your control cards at it and you should pull it through
vs. B/W Confidant aka Deadguy Ale
Slightly unfavorable. Head-to-head, my money's on Confidant--especially if it's maindecking Withered Wretch. Thresh is already land-light to begin with and as much as it wants to dump stuff into its graveyard, it can't easily recover from hand destruction. Thresh's draw engine (Predict aside), while efficient, never increases your hand size--it just finds goodies. And by packing more spells where land would normally go, it almost seems like you're drawing more cards than your opponent, but rather you're just seeing and choosing more cards than your opponent and drawing more spells than lands when you're both topdecking. And that is the dilemma when it comes to Deadguy. I will generally set my first Mage on Vindicate so that I don't shut off my own removal by naming StP--as you really need an answer to Confidant, Shade, and Hyppie when they arrive.
Tips:
- Even without seven cards in your graveyard, Enforcer is still money
- Leave your fetchlands on the board for as long as you can
- Fetch basics as aggressively as you can afford
- Don't be afraid to trade an unthreshed Mongoose/Werebear for Confidant
vs. Stax
Highly unfavorable. If you lose the die roll, seriously, go get lunch or a beer or something. As in Vintage, going second against Stax places you in a terrible position and fighting against a turn-1 Chalice for "1" or Trinisphere is often game. But if you do get to go first, being able to play a single cantrip and have Daze ready gives you a fighting chance. I'll usually set my first Meddling Mage to "Tangle Wire" so I can beat with impunity. Smokestack is too slow to matter and only has an effect on the games you've already lost. Post board you'll bring in artifact removal in place of your useless Swords to Plowshares.
Tips:
- Leave your fetchlands on the board for as long as possible.
- Fetch your basics or you'll lose
- Careful naming with Meddling Mage is more crucial than normal
- Win as quick as possible or you won't win at all
And that's about it.
IV. Appendix:
A. Ben Goodman's GP: Philly Threshold Report
B. Bardo's "Threshold/Super Gro Primer" at StarCityGames:
Part 1: Design and Construction
Part 2: Strategy and Tactics
Part 3: Tuning the Maindeck and Sideboard
Part 4: Sideboard Guide
Part 5: Reflections on Grand Prix: Lille
C. 'My own take on the archetype:
Legacy U/G/W Threshold
Lives in fucking Oregon. You do the math...
by Dan Spero aka 'Bardo'
4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Meddling Mage
1 Mystic Enforcer
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
Sideboard
4 Hydroblast
3 Armageddon
2 Tivadar's Crusade
2 Naturalize
2 Worship
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Mystic Enforcer
Questions to get the discussion rolling:
- What's the correct number of land? 17? 18?
- Should Thresh run off-color basics (Forest and/or Plains) or are basic Islands enough?
- What's the optimal cantrip base? How many should you run? 12? 14? 16? 18?
- Is Mental Note the nutz or chaff? What about Predict?
- Maindeck Meddling Mage: Hot or Not? In the sideboard?
- Maindeck Nimble Mongoose: Hot or Not? In the sideboard?
- 3 Daze or 4?
- Engineered Explosives: Hot or Not? In the sideboard, main deck or is it crap?
- Maindeck (or Sideboard) Worship: Hot or Not?
- How many Enforcers do you need? Maindeck 1-3? 0? Keep them in the sideboard?
-------------------------------
* Much like Legacy itself
** All thirty of us
Last edited by Bardo; 08-30-2006 at 02:40 AM.
I'm surprised that you find this matchup so favorable. In my personally experience I have yet to lose to UGW Thresh. (Even once being stuck under worship lock with no outs except DECKING my opponent). I've found my opponents unable to keep up with my stream of threats. Most players in Syracuse do not play maindeck engineered explosives, however only running one doesn't seem all to helpful in the face of maindeck needles.Originally Posted by Bardo
My only dream is that yours never come true.
"People played violin as the Titanic sank. Tomorrow they will play Green Day songs with plastic keytars as their Hoovervilles burn."
Fucking fantastic work here Bardo! I really wish more threads had more finely sculpted first posts.
I'll take a stab at some of your questions:
Q: Should Thresh run off-color basics (Forest and/or Plains) or are basic Islands enough?
A: I personally like the off color basics, but for those who prefer not to fetch them vs. Goblins, I guess not.
Q: What's the optimal cantrip base? How many should you run? 12? 14? 16? 18?
Q: Is Mental Note the nutz or chaff? What about Predict?
A: Combined these. I say more than 12, less than 16. Either 14 or 15. I run both Mental Note and Predict. Predict can often be dead with only 8 stacking effects, but I still think it's worth running at least 2. Some Thresh players are still in love with Portent, but I really don't like it at all. Still, I wonder if we will ever come to a clear consensus on the cantrip base since it seems so personal.
Q: Maindeck Meddling Mage: Hot or Not? In the sideboard?
Q: Maindeck Nimble Mongoose: Hot or Not? In the sideboard?
A: Yes to both. 4 Goose clearly, but I prefer 2 or 3 Mages as geese are great in every matchup while mages are pretty awful in some.
Q: 3 Daze or 4?
A: 3. I don't think I ever want to see 2 in my opening hand and they're not the worlds best topdeck.
Q: Engineered Explosives: Hot or Not? In the sideboard, main deck or is it crap?
Q: How many Enforcers do you need? Maindeck 1-3? 0? Keep them in the sideboard?
A: I'm combining these two because it shows the beauty of this deck. I say, run one of each. There are no matchups where you need either of these cards, only matchups where you want them so the decks cantrip base allows you to either bury or dump them in the bad matchups, or dig for them in the good ones. I say one explosives main, and one in the board, and 1 Enforcer main, and 2 in the board.
Ill take a stab at the questions too.
- What's the correct number of land? 17? 18?
17
- Should Thresh run off-color basics (Forest and/or Plains) or are basic Islands enough?
I'd run a maindeck forest.
- What's the optimal cantrip base? How many should you run? 12? 14? 16? 18? 14-16
- Is Mental Note the nutz or chaff? What about Predict?
Note is the nutz. It allows you to recover from things like crypt a lot faster.
- Maindeck Meddling Mage: Hot or Not? In the sideboard?
It should at least be sideboarded its maindeck slot is deck dependent.
- Maindeck Nimble Mongoose: Hot or Not? In the sideboard?
Hot. It is huge against Goblins and random Agro.
- 3 Daze or 4?
3. You don't want 2 in your opening hand.
- Engineered Explosives: Hot or Not? In the sideboard, main deck or is it crap?
I am personally not a fan of it at all, but it's list dependent.
- Maindeck (or Sideboard) Worship: Hot or Not?
I like sideboard Worship. Locking random agro is always tech.
- How many Enforcers do you need? Maindeck 1-3? 0? Keep them in the sideboard?
I prefer 2 and 1 in the board. Enforcer is just too big not to run.
Team Rehab- We Keep Coming Back For More
Team Blitzkrieg- Swagga.
Storm Boards
Yeah... I'll take a stab at them too.
Q: What's the correct number of land? 17 or 18?
A: 18 if you run the Mental Note version, since Mental Note cant really find you lands. 17 if you run 1cc 12 Cantrips that include Library Mainpulation.
Q: Should Thresh run off-color basics (Forest and/or Plains) or are basic Islands enough?
A: I seem to like them, they help against Goblins or anything Wasteland. Only two things I'm afraid of for running off-colored basics are; Rishadan Ports and my opening hands if it's a 1 Land Hand and a Cantrip.
Q: What's the optimal cantrip base? How many should you run? 12? 14? 16? 18?
A: 12-14 if I'm running Mental Notes, 14-16 if I run Predicts, 16-18 if I run Dryads.
Q: Is Mental Note the nutz or chaff? What about Predict?
A: I like Mental Notes if I run at least 12 Guys Maindecked, and that includes the Red Version too. The reason why I say this because Mental Notes cant draw you into any guys really, so you rely on your opening hand to get those guys; Mental Notes just exploit them, so they can take your opponeny down early game.
As for Predict, I think it's a solid piece of card draw. It cuts a dead card from your deck entirely (assuming you'll play another shuffle effect) with the aid of a Library Manipulation Cantrip. I also like it because it halps in in the midgame, and easily help with your card quality and quantity, assuming that you have enough time to use set-up Predict.
Q: Maindeck Meddling Mage: Hot or Not? In the sideboard?
A: In an unexpected field, they're hot if you have the skill to use them, otherwise in Goblin heavy metagames, they suck. But I admit, they do win quite a lot of games against just about anything. But if I dont run them main, the sideboard is a good place to put them.
Q: Maindeck Nimble Mongoose: Hot or Not? In the sideboard?
A: Run them Maindecked always; they're crazy with Mental Notes, they're crazy with Predicts, and they're part of what makes your clock tick! Always run these!
Q: 3 Daze or 4?
A: 3 Daze if you feel like running a Disrupting Shoal or Counterspell over the 4th one, or your running the Predict version, which has an actual late-game. 4 Dazes if you run Mental Notes. Now the reason why I said that because with such a clock, they're more likely to tap out to find answers for them, so Daze becomes very useful.
Q: Engineered Explosives: Hot or Not? In the sideboard, main deck or is it crap?
A; I like it because it's so random, and is a decent answer to the mirror. Also pretty hawt against Stax.
Q: Maindeck (Or Sideboard) Worship: Hot or Not?
A: Maindeck if every swiss round is an 1-1.5 hours long and it's aggro. Otherwise SB a couple of them; they're amazing. If not, I would dare say Nantuko Monastery.
Q: How many Enforcers do you need? Maindeck 1-3? 0? Keep them in the sideboard?
A: 1 Maindecked; Mental Note alreasy makes my guys tick. I'll side him in the mirror or something. 2 is the most I would go, and 3 if some people just see Nimble Mongoose distasteful. I would have at least 0-1 in the Sideboard.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
A lot of the basics are seem to be agreed upon so far, so I will skip the ones most people agree upon so far.
Meddling Mages: I've been running them main, because they are always playable, if not fantastic. Worst case scenerio, side them out for something more useful.
Engineered Explosives: One of my favorites in the deck. I run two, and am tempted to run a third. Against random aggro decks or Goblins, a topdecked EE can swing a game to your favor from the blue. Against Faerie Stompy a few weeks ago, game one I forced a turn one and a turn two Chalice, then lost to the insane card disadvantage. I managed to win the match, but the key factor of the match was an EE. My opponent went turn one Chalice for one, which stuck, then a Chalice for two, cutting of my Naturalizes. At this point, the castable cards in the deck are Force, Enforcer...and EE. I rip an EE, cast it for zero, and net myself a 4-for-1, blowing up a Chrome Mox in the process.
Other super-useful uses of EE include Isochron Sceptor, multiple Grim Lavamancers, Kird Apes, and an Isamaru, and moxen and tokens. I have done all of those in the past month, and while not always the single game winning factor, I am never dissapointed to draw an EE.
InfoNinjas
Should Threshold run Remand and Repeal over Portent and Predict?
I've recently started running this configuration just to try it out, both feed threshold. But the former two provide solid tempo boosts while giving up card quality.
The best part about the former two cards is that they greatly slow down fast decks like Goblins long enough for you to attain Threshold and shut them out completely. In addition, creatures have to wait a turn to attack, so when you repeal them, you actually set them back by two turns.
The other card I've again started testing here is Mishra's Bauble, mainly because it acts like an opt when combined with fetchlands and works well with Serum Visions, Mental Note, and Predict.
I'm not saying that any of these cards are optimal or must be run.
I was just wondering if you guys though these cards were viable alternatives to the standard cantrip engine.
I am also wondering about Counterbalance, which I ironically enough am also testing.
I don't mean to be nitpicky. The rest of the analysis is wonderful, but I disagree about your assessment that burn is an easy matchup for you.
I explained the matchup in far greater detail in the burn thread, but in summary, with all the self damage you take from fetchlands and force of wills, they only need to resolve ~5 burn spells to win the game as long as two of those burn spells include flame rift or fireblast.
The thres player only starts to get lots of damage from his creatures once he gets threshold, which usually takes till around turn 4 unless you draw 2 mental notes early on. By then the thres player is already well in single digits. After getting threshold, the thres player will still need to survive several more turns to get the kill.
I've played the matchup from both sides and while sligh is a walk in the park, a well built burn deck (18-19 land, 20 1cc 3 damage spells including mogg fanatic, fireblast, flame rift, flamebreak and no other 3cc cards) will prove quite challenging.
The only way it's an easy matchup is if you cast Worship, which none of your lists MD or sideboard.
You only run about 9-10 counterspells, 4 of which are very easily played around. And you will be at very low on life by the time you reach threshold no matter how you play. By then, the life differential is so much that the burn player won't care about your threats. And even swording your own guy buys you a turn at best but slows down how much damage you can deal giving them more time to draw more burn spells. Only bad burn players, that either run too many high cc burn spells or focus their burn on your creatures rather than the player will be easy for thres.
Now I'm not saying that burn is a very difficult matchup for you, just that's it's not in your favor unless you run Worship or Counterbalance.
Sligh however is a very easy matchup for you since they need to attack to deal damage and thus hate untargetable 3/3 and 4/4 blockers that require 2 for 1ing. But lumping it with burn and thinking both will be easy matchups is a mistake.
Dont get me wrong though. I'm not saying that burn is a good deck and warrants much consideration. It can be hated out very easily with just a couple of sideboard worship if need be.
Last edited by SuckerPunch; 08-25-2006 at 04:58 PM.
Today, I played in my 4th tournament, with white Thresh. I am going to try to give a tournament report. I got into the Top 4! It was a small tournament. There were 3 rounds, and Top 4.
My first round, I played against an Affinity type deck, but with a few changes. I went 2-0 against him. It was a pretty easy win. I countered all of his kill conditions, and beat him down with Threshed geese and Werebears. I also had Enforcer a couple times to speed up the process.
Round 2: I played against a Squirrel Opposition deck. It was a very interesting deck. I lost the first die roll, and lost game one. I went into topdeck mode. He played back to basics. (I took out my basic Plains the change the deck, and forgot to put it back) He wrecked me with 2 Troll Aesthetic's. I won game 2. I had 2 Mongeese, a Werebear, and 2 Enforcers. He tapped my enforcers for 2 turns with Opposition, and then I topdecked Naturalize. Swung twice and won.
Round 3: U/W control. It was like Landstill without the actual card. The first game was long, he had meddling mages too, and swords. It was actually the closest thing to a mirror match I've seen. I went 1-2 with him.
I got matched up against the same person in the top 4. He won that game too. He had Forbidden Watchtower for my bears. I left after that game
Top 4
Affinity
Goblins
U/W Control
Me!
Now rocking a job at Off the Wall Games!!
~Team Necro~
I'm still not an expert at Thresh, but my experience so far has led me to side with those that place Meddling Mage in the sideboard, but definitely as a 4-of. Once you know what your opponent is playing, the Mage is dynamite; if nothing else, it can serve as a "must counter" or "must destroy" your opponent has to deal with. However, I've found that, when you don't know what to expect (i.e., in the first game), you can often waste a Mage by naming something less than optimal.
I'm sure many will disagree with this idea, but I'm currently main-decking Armageddon, and I don't side it out very often. How often is resolving Armageddon not game over? Not very, from my experience.
Maindeck Armageddon??? 0_o... that is quite interesting. What's even more interesting is that you rarely side it out.. does that mean Goblins is non-existent in your meta??? I think Armageddon is a 3 of in the sideboard only. I'm also curious as to what you cut for the geddons.
Team Unicorn- "I'm Horny."
"The Wandering One" of Legacy.
"Glimmervoid, Go."
I think by now its apparent that maindecked Meddling Mage is the reason that W Thresh has its biggest strengths.. The ability to control what the opponent plays even more. We went to this tournament in West Springfield MA. Look how ridiculously odd her pairings were. Mage still came in handy in a very unknown and diverse meta. Name one key card in a deck not built around mage and in just crumbles.
Now playing real formats.
Meddling Mage, of which I have 4 in the board. And actually, I haven't played against many Goblin decks, which I admit means I shouldn't be playing this at a serious Legacy tournament any time soon. Unfortunately, there isn't nearly enough Legacy playing around here for me to do the requisite testing and tweaking. Hence my apparent ignorance.
I suppose if nothing else, I can whip up a Goblin deck to play this against. In anyone's educated opinion, how favorable/unfavorable is the Goblins matchup?
Last edited by T is for TOOL; 08-19-2006 at 06:21 AM. Reason: Edited for consistency.
I am no master of Threshold either, I don't even play teh deck lol.. So I would suggest scrolling up at Bardo's original post, it has the matchups there, including the Goblins one. From what I read, it is a toss-up, but slightly favorable towards team Goblins.
Team Unicorn- "I'm Horny."
"The Wandering One" of Legacy.
"Glimmervoid, Go."
Ignore it.
What the issue may be for you is that you need to lose to Goblins. Meddling Mage is usless against them, and Armageddon is worse than useless. While you will find both these cards in most White Thresh builds, few has Mage maindeck, and none have 'Geddon.
It's purely a metagame call, as decks running Mage maindecked or sideboard have both won tournaments. The more Combo and Control you expect, the more he is needed. In a random meta,(as you seem to have) I could see 'Geddon in the main hosing a lot of unprepared decks.
Against Aggro, he is stll o.k., just not as good against decks that can cheat creatures into play with Aether Vial. But even the Survival builds that run Vial can be hurt if you name Survival with him.
You would get more useful feedback if you included what you run as a creature base, as most decks that don't run Mage use 2-3 Enforcers in addition to the Goose and Bear. And these also run an altered cantrip base than the Mage bulids. Usually more controlling than speedy to take the late game, and to make up for the lack of control Mage gives.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
Thanks for the reply. That's a very good point. I know Goblins is a DTB, and it's one I don't have nearly enough experience against. So, I guess I need to find out what to replace Mage/Geddon with in a Goblin-heavy meta.
So far, I would say that's the case - I've surprised a lot of people playing Geddon in the first game, which is one reason it's still in the main deck.
I'm currently running 4 x Goose & Bear, 3 x Enforcer, 10 counters, and 14 draw (4 x Brainstorm, Serum, Note, 2 x Predict). Thoughts?
A few things:
* My post was all about my personal experiences playing the deck in tourneys, on MWS, and at my "Dining Room Table Gauntlet." Take one man's experience what the deck for what it is: personal limited but thorough. Of note, I haven't played against the Berserk/Fling Affinity decks, and those seem better than the rest.
* If you get your Thresh opponent to 1 with Worship on the board, a single trigger of Disciple will kill them, since it's "loss of life." This is why you don't sideboard Worship in against IGGy Pop.
* Affinity can dump a ton of threats quickly, but mostly they're weak. Frogmites and Workers are good for affinity counts, but are easily trumped by all of Thresh's threats. The most dangerous things are Cranial Plating on an Ornithopter or Nexus and Ravager + Disciple. The rest of it you just counter, StP or nuke with EE. Though StP and Pithing Needle all provide cost-efficient outs to all of these situations. In most games, the ground war will eventually stall out and you can win with Enforcer, who's a beast.
Again, this has been my experience. And I never said it was "easy," but the only life point that counts is the last one.
Note that my list, the last one in the first post, has been running Worship since January.
This is a critical point and I'm quoting it just for emphasis. None of these lists are set in stone. That's one of the nice things about the deck, it's modular, and there are a lot of negotiable slots depending on what you plan on facing.
This is pretty standard and has led a lot of people to success. Nothing controversial there.
Thanks. So if I were to put both Mage and Armageddon in the board, what should be in the main?
Probably more cantrips, like portent.
I tweaked Bardo's list. What do you guys think?
//Creatures - 14
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
3 Meddling Mage
2 Mystic Enforcer
//Spells – 25
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Predict
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
//Artifact – 3
3 Pithing Needle
//Land - 18
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Island
1 Forest
SB:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Tivadar's Crusade
2 Armageddon
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Worship
1 Mystic Enforcer
Haven't tested it yet, but I have a feeling my version is better against Thunder Bluff than other builds.
Last edited by Caboose; 08-16-2006 at 01:21 AM.
I'm personally a fan of 4 Brainstorm, 4 Serum Visions, 3 Portent, 3 Predict. It gives you a powerful amount of dig, while reserving a few slots for something like maindeck needles or explosives.
-Steve
How come it needs to be a holiday to bang noobslayer's sister?
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