[Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

[mans0011]

I addressed all points given by IBA, then he proceeds to say that I am avoiding them? And I do not understand how I'm ducking anything; he stated his opinion, I stated mine. Did I not address a particular point raised by IBA?

And by the way, it's sarcasm, not irony. Irony would be like a firefighter dying from a fire in his own home, or a brain surgeon dying from a brain tumor, etc.

Actually... "Sarcasm is proverbially said to be the lowest form of wit.[3] It is often associated with the use of irony" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm).

[Tao]

I think that at least 2 bounce spells are nessecary against Needle on Disk and also because they are good anyway. Repeal, Capsize, Echoing Truth and Cryptic Command are the only playable Bounce spells. I don't want to play Command in one deck with Disk and Fact because they all cost 4 but between the others I really can't argue. I use Repeal atm but that might change.

[Baumeister]

5UU.

Call the Skybreaker costs 5UU.

But otherwise, this is indeed correct.

I was refering to the abilities of Morphling in that sentence, but it disturbs me that you would prefer to pay an entire additional mana cost AND discard a land instead of a creature that shrugs off targetted spells.

Let's compare scenarios:

It's turn six and you have a Call the Skybreaker in hand along with some counterspells, lands, and card drawing. Would you play Call the Skybreaker next turn? It depends of course, but let's say you do. It comes down on turn seven. The opponent destroys it with, say, Snuff Out. Next turn you retrace and put another elemental into play. At the cost of two turns and a land, you have put a 5/5 with flying into play on turn eight which can start dealing damage on turn nine. Hell, that's not bad for a control deck.

Let's say I have Morphling in hand instead of Call the Skybreaker and the same counterspells, lands, and card drawing. On turn six, I lay down a Morphling, activating the shroud ability against Snuff Out if necessary. Turn seven, I attack with Morphling, giving it +2/-2, flying, and shroud for 2UU, dealing five damage. This leaves UUU open for card drawing and counterspells (assuming I played a land). The next turn, I repeat.

As the game progresses, you could put more Elementals into play, but would you? Wrath of God becomes more relevant then and you clearly stated that making that card at all relevant is bad news.

So it clearly does come down to preference. As I see it, there is no other way around your accusations of being "nostalgic".

Please provide possible situations where dropping Morphling for another threat would be better. I'm honestly interested in discussing possible creatures with you. What threat base do you run at the moment?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

They have another removal spell after Morphling?

You don't have a counter in hand?

You have to deal with Tombstalker?

They have a counter?

They have a non-targeted removal effect?

They cast Hymn to Tourach before you can cast the spell?

I can keep going. You can continue arguing for Morphling, I guess, but it's absurd to pretend that Morphling is anything but vastly more vulnerable to elimination than Call the Skybreaker.

[4eak]

@ Baumeister

I can definitely agree that Morphling isn't outdated or irrelevant. From testing I also agree that the majority of times Morphling is just straight up better than CtS.

There are matches where CtS is a better choice. CtS creates similar inevitability as Eternal Dragon does for white control decks (although, E-Dragon provides actual card advantage at times). CtS is stronger than Morphling against heavy board control decks. The drop and forget is important, and it basically turns your lands into post-mortem counterspells against removal. They remove a CtS Token, then you make another for the cost of a land in hand. Turning lands into answers to board control is quite relevant. Obviously there is a loss in tempo, but this is a minor point in the late game of a heavy control matchup.

CtS helps you when you are down against heavy board control decks. You don't need card advantage for CtS to be a threat. Conversely, against heavy control decks, you need to have card advantage for Morphling to be fully operational. I drop Morphling carefully, and I don't have to drop CtS carefully.

Additionally, if you eat unanswered Thoughtseizes or you commonly FoF your blue bomb creature into the GY, then having CtS could be better. I run Mishra's Factory though, so I'm not nearly as scared to pitch to FoW or FoF away my creature. Actually, I really don't have nearly as many threat problems.

Anyways, how many people here actually face heavy board control metagames? Probably not many. Most importantly, does MUC really need the inevitability provided by CtS? I love facing other control decks as MUC. It is a match that I'm very likely to win in the first place, and I'm don't need CtS to help me. There are other matches in which I have much more difficult odds to overcome, and it is usually in these matches where Morphling is stronger than CtS.

CtS helps us win matches we should already be winning. It is not as relevant as Morphling (or Factory for that matter) in some of our more difficult matches.



peace,
4eak

[juventus]

CtS is just too slow, and only relevant against control decks.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I swear to God. I don't understand this.

Where did you people that think CtS is too slow as compared to Morphling learn arithmetic?

If you assume you're keeping only one mana open to protect Morphling, which opens you up to double removal, but we'll go with it, that's a whole whopping 14% less expensive than CtS.

Vs. turning all subsequent Islands into threats...

4eak, what control decks are you thinking of in particular? I can think of lots of other control decks I'd be afraid to play against, or where I'd rely very heavily on drawing/resolving B2B, while piloting MUC.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

CtS is just too slow, and only relevant against control decks.

I'm flabbergasted. Really, I am. How can you say CtS is too slow when Morphling can't even do a damned thing until you've got six mana you can spare every turn?

Plus, when did we start caring about the speed of control, anyways? Control isn't aggro; it doesn't try to win the game in three to five turns. It keeps your opponent's threats under, GASP, control and allows you to win at your own pace. It's a reactive archetype, not a proactive one.

[juventus]

Your argument makes no sense

People always cared about the speed of control, why do control decks play engineered explosives, spell snare, and fact or fiction over oblivion stone, cryptic command, and opportunity? It's because speed matters, you would always rather have your cards become relevant a turn faster. Yes, I know what a control deck is.

You also underestimate the number of times you can play morphling with only 5 lands in play.

And you're complaining about morphling being mana intensive? The whole point why I would rather take morphling is because it is far LESS mana intensive. Think about it, by the time you use CtS twice you've invested 14 mana and a land. That's 9 morphling activations.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that CtS is a much better card turns 15 and on. I just think that at that point you've probably won the game, and morphling would do the job fine as well. Morphling is also obviously worse than CtS against counters and edicts.

[4eak]

@ TheInfamousBearAssassin


Where did you people that think CtS is too slow as compared to Morphling learn arithmetic?

-Morphling requires 5 mana to be cast, CtS requires 7.

-Morphling can deal 10 damage by the time CtS is actually cast, and even if a 2nd CtS is cast, Morphling wins the game earlier. And, there will be times that you spend your load, drop Morphling, and try to win on the spot. Morphling's self protection is relevant when you need to win right now.

-Morphling can both block and attack, which means you can prevent yourself from losing and begin winning earlier in damage races.

-CtS almost always eats control cards, which means you lose at least a turn (or two) to cast it again. Given several control cards, like EE/Academy recursion, an opponent can make the game last for many, many more turns than it normally would. In timed rounds, you don't always have the luxury to fight this war of attrition. Playing this card at home or MWS is worlds different than using it to win a match in 50 minutes.

You and I both know that the average MUC w/CtS game goes on for several turns after Morphling would win it. CtS trades tempo and speed for resilience and inevitability. If you want to argue for the use of CtS, then don't do it on account of the cards "speed".


I can think of lots of other control decks I'd be afraid to play against, or where I'd rely very heavily on drawing/resolving B2B, while piloting MUC

What heavy control decks are you afraid to play against? Tempo.dec is not what I mean by heavy control either.

By heavy control, I mean Landstill, MWC, MBC, MUC, and to some extent ITF. These are matches that are already positive (some better than others depending on your build of MUC). Do we really need CtS for these decks? Aren't there other decks which are more troublesome, and is CtS really the best choice with regards to those decks?

Additionally, I generally don't want to draw out these control matches too be long. It can be a struggle to win 2 games in 50 minutes. While CtS makes these matches stronger with no time limit, I am not convinced it is the best answer with a time limit.

CtS is a slower win condition. That isn't necessarily bad, but I don't think we've enough reason to use it as a replacement to a card like Morphling. Morphling is just more flexible and quicker in allowing MUC to change from the control to aggro role. CtS slow rolls into inevitability, and I'm not sure that is what this deck needs.




peace,
4eak

[Mordel]

If something works, it works, but I don't really see CtS being faster than morphling. When I would drop a morphling, I would make sure that I would have three mana available at least in order to use its own ability and then for a counter, for example...under a similar principle I will need to make three additional drops to protect my massive seven mana investment.

I haven't tested CtS, so this is off the cuff, but I did spend years playing morphling and more playing efreet and I can say with a conviction that lots of the time with draw-go styled decks when you drop your creature, you are going to win 98% of the time, because you drop your creature when your opponents has almost been completely run out of steam if not entirely run out of steam. A lot of the time with muc, you could be winning just as easily with a fucking mistform ultimus as a mahomati djinn, morphling or CtS token.

The thing that honestly concerns me about CtS tokens is that you need to pitch a land to bring one back if you fail to protect or don't want to and it costs seven fucking mana. Sure, you can wrath or deed away a morphling, but considering the game that muc plays, your opponent is going to be needing a lot of support to push a wrath or deed in the latest possible part of the game versus muc before the four swinging turns.

I don't really care either way, but with the energy that some people that have been replying to this thread are known for putting into arguing their diamond in the rough tech, just let it be and wait for them to win a GP with it. Honestly, it isn't worth the effort because it is impossible to convince someone that you are arguing with that they are in fact wrong most of the time unless they are honestly a truely exceptional example of a human being.

Morphling, CtS, Meloku, Oona, spire golem(very underrated), efreet or mahamoti: who gives a fuck? Run whatever works for you. When you win an big event with your ultra-tech, then you can shit all over everyone that is used to running the good old standbys because they have been proven to work for years and years and people might have simply been attached to them. Until that day though, people should be more respectiful towards people that are trying to communicate why a card like morphling has been one of the most heavily played kill cards. Why bother to ask people why it is good, IBA? Seriously, man, you fuckin' know why it is good. It has been good for that very reason since sixth edition rules hit the masses. Just agree to disagree on it. To someone that has very, very little interest or time invested in this thread and archetype at this point, but understands how it works extremely well(ie: me) the longevity of this debate is ridiculous. People have stated their points. All either saide can do now is wait for results or produce their own.

[frogboy]

Given several control cards, like EE/Academy recursion, an opponent can make the game last for many, many more turns than it normally would.

It would be unbelievably awkward if you just played Morphling and they Wrathed it away and then the game lasted for many, many more turns because you were no longer able to actually kill your opponent.

Why is your draw-go deck getting into a damage race?

edit:


If something works, it works, but I don't really see CtS being faster than morphling. When I would drop a morphling, I would make sure that I would have three mana available at least in order to use its own ability and then for a counter, for example...under a similar principle I will need to make three additional drops to protect my massive seven mana investment.

Part of the reason you have to be able to show a permission spell after playing a Morphling is because you have to actually care if you untap with the Morphling or not.

The main point here is that if you're playing a card that's only good when you've basically won already, you don't want to open yourself up to losing because all of a sudden the other guy's sweepers stopped being blanks.


When you win an big event with your ultra-tech, then you can shit all over everyone that is used to running the good old standbys because they have been proven to work for years and years and people might have simply been attached to them.

This is dumb. People can win tournaments with bad lists; that's not to say the lists can't be improved.

[Mordel]

This is dumb. People can win tournaments with bad lists; that's not to say the lists can't be improved.
It at least gives tangible results as opposed to anecdotal information in a very confrontational package, which is pretty much lost on whoever they are trying to benefit with is.


The main point here is that if you're playing a card that's only good when you've basically won already, you don't want to open yourself up to losing because all of a sudden the other guy's sweepers stopped being blanks.


Maybe I am just weary of the entire needing to draw a land thing after a morphling gets succesfully wrathed. I admittedly play exclusively on mws, but I see mostly either targeted removal or EE all day...I don't see wraths.
Based off of the small wedge of the pie that I play, a lot less will and has gone wrong with a morphling than something like meloku, which as far as vulnerability to removal is concerned, might as well be a cts token.

It comes down to preference mostly in my opinion.

[4eak]

@ frogboy


It would be unbelievably awkward if you just played Morphling and they Wrathed it away and then the game lasted for many, many more turns because you were no longer able to actually kill your opponent.

Why is your draw-go deck getting into a damage race?

Well...my draw/go deck isn't usually in a damage race. But, when I do play draw/go without Factory's, there are definitely times when I am in a damage race.

Going to time in game 3 happens really does happen (although, this is most common in control vs control matches). This is one of the risks of bringing a hardcore control deck like Draw/Go to a tournament. It is a damage race at times. Forcing through a win condition and winning on the spot is sometimes the only shot you have of winning the match. I know you've had times where it was make or break, you had Morphling in hand and 5 land, you've dropped it defensively, stabilized the game with just him, and then won before your opponent could recover. Few win conditions can claim to do that.

In control matches, I don't think MUC has a difficult time surviving to the late game. The question is really can you win before it is too late. Morphling is about winning while you have the opportunity to do it. It doesn't waste time, and that still matters. Is Morphling unbelievably faster than CtS? Not by a crazy amount, but by a few turns absolutely. Those few turns can definitely make the difference.

Most importantly: Morphling abuses the temporary windows of stability that MUC creates, and CtS really doesn't. Once you've untapped with Morphling, you've probably just won. There are games that you only have a short window of time to drop a threat before an opponent could recover, and Morphling does a better job in this role than CtS. Morphling crystallizes your stability and allows you to convert to the aggro role more effectively than CtS. CtS has inevitability, but if you've played with the card, you'd know it really does take a lot longer to win the game than several alternatives.

With all that said, I'm not completely against CtS. The card is very good. I just don't think CtS dethrones Morphling in most cases. If you really are less concerned about going to time or have less need for the tempo-oriented plays to be made from cards like Morphling, then by all means, play CtS.




peace,
4eak

[mackaber]

IBA I think you have to get over the idea that speed of kill condition can be measured in mana investment. Once you have 7 plus mana available it becomes irrelevant that dealing 5 with morphling has an upkeep of 2. What is not irrelevant however, is the fact CtS costs 7 and thus 2 more than morphling. Have you ever come across a situation where you couldn't safely outtap for CtS with 7 lands in play? I have very often and in those situations I have wished it were morphling but I'm stuck waiting with CtS in hand for either force or land number 9 so that I can ply it safe.

Edit: And before you circumvent the argument... let's assume you can't outtap for fear of lethal burn to the face.

[Baumeister]

They have another removal spell after Morphling?

You don't have a counter in hand?

You have to deal with Tombstalker?

They have a counter?

They have a non-targeted removal effect?

They cast Hymn to Tourach before you can cast the spell?

I can keep going. You can continue arguing for Morphling, I guess, but it's absurd to pretend that Morphling is anything but vastly more vulnerable to elimination than Call the Skybreaker.

These things can all be said about Call the Skybreaker as well. If the opponent has another removal spell, you can just activate shroud again. If we don't have a counter, it doesn't matter what win condition we're using. The Elemental can't deal with Tombstalker either. If they cast Hymn to Tourach, then it sucks for us. Sure, you can retrace Call the Skybreaker next turn, but how many turns do you want to tap out to get a creature into play?

What if you don't have a land to discard? What if you don't get to seven mana? What if you're killed before you can play your elemental? What if it takes so long for you to get Call the Skybreaker to stick that you go to time? We can throw out hypotheticals all day. You say that you want to win games faster, but then you recommend playing a slower win condition.

Call the Skybreaker gives you inevitability, sure. But it requires so much more investment than Morphling.

I'm not telling you not to play it, but I've tested enough with Morphling that I know that it works. A lot of other people in this thread have too. I don't know what else to say to re-prove over ten years of people playing this creature in blue control decks.

Go ahead and play Call the Skybreaker, I'm going to stick with Morphling.

[cookies!]

I'm not all that experienced with this deck, so take the following with a grain of salt, but here are some random questions and minor insights:

1. On the argument on CtS: maybe it's just me, but in drawn-out games, especially in the control mirror, I sometimes find myself in the situation where I'm down to my last win condition (losing the others to FoF, FoW and in rare cases my opponent's removal) and have to make unfavorable plays to protect it. Admittedly, this situation doesn't come up very often at all, but all else being equal I'd feel safer with at least one copy of CtS in my deck.

2. Speaking of win conditions, the variant with EE can conceivably support a singleton DoJ off of a plains. Just try to fetch for it early on to prevent awkward FoF piles. At the very least, it'd break the mirror match in half.

3. Is Accumulated Knowledge really as bad as some people claim it is? If Wizards printed an instant that drew 2 cards and cost 1u, this deck would immediately play 4. From that point of view, only the first copy of AK would be considered subpar (assuming no graveyard removal from the opponent's side). The second through fourth are awesome cheap sources of card advantage and work great with FoF (imagine flipping two AKs with one in the graveyard). I think it at least merits testing in versions that have Brainstorm to find the other copies.

4. To the people who sideboard Vendilion Clique: how good is it in your experience? Does it improve the matchup against storm combo enough to make it winnable? Is it useful against any other decks? I really don't know what to think of this card.

[m03]

The Elemental can't deal with Tombstalker either.

Yes it can, both being 5/5 flyers. As long as you can draw into lands, you can keep making an army of guys to overcome their Tombstalker(s).


If they cast Hymn to Tourach, then it sucks for us. Sure, you can retrace Call the Skybreaker next turn

That's the whole point.


What if you don't have a land to discard

Then you're doing it wrong.


What if you don't get to seven mana?

Then you probably shouldn't be playing MUC. If you're comfortable casting Morphling without having mana open to defend him, then you're doing it wrong.


What if you're killed before you can play your elemental? What if it takes so long for you to get Call the Skybreaker to stick that you go to time? We can throw out hypotheticals all day. You say that you want to win games faster, but then you recommend playing a slower win condition.

I've found Morphling to be slower than CtS. With CtS, you can work yourself out of creature-based stand-stills (where you need to keep a blocker open, etc. It's rare, but it does happen) simply by Retracing it over and over until you overwhelm the opponent.


Call the Skybreaker gives you inevitability, sure. But it requires so much more investment than Morphling.

Not really, when you look at Morphling's actual costs.

[Captain Hammer]

I don't think that anything should ever replace Morphling.

But I do think CtS could be a fine replacement for Rainbow Efreet. Efreet never kills anything, it can't be pumped to absorb trample damage. It's not much of a threat

The only reason it's there is as a threat that simply can't be gotten rid of, even with Wrath effects. CtS serves an identical purpose. Plus, CtS doesn't fold to counters to boot, unlike both Efreet and Morphling.

P.S: I haven't ever tried CtS, this is all theory. So I could well be wrong.

[mans0011]

How come no one is really bringing up Meloku? I thought that he Just. Wins. Games. ? Or was that just standard/black of 2005/6?

[Kadaj]

I'm flabbergasted. Really, I am. How can you say CtS is too slow when Morphling can't even do a damned thing until you've got six mana you can spare every turn?

Plus, when did we start caring about the speed of control, anyways? Control isn't aggro; it doesn't try to win the game in three to five turns. It keeps your opponent's threats under, GASP, control and allows you to win at your own pace. It's a reactive archetype, not a proactive one.

See that's just false. Morphling requires a grand total of 3 mana to be relevant every turn. Why? Because that's five flying damage every turn, and not too many decks out there play flying blockers in the first place (and don't even try to argue that you won't have three mana. It takes a minimum of five mana to just play Morphling in the first place).

Anyway, things Morphling can do that CtS cannot:

1. Attack and block the following turn. CtS can only do this if you have a land and seven open mana. Morphling would require 4, assuming you played correct and made it a 5/1 with flying the previous turn.

2. Exist on its own without further card investment. CtS is recurring, its true, but its recursion is limited to the number of lands you have to discard and the number of times you want to tap out to play the damn thing again. All I've heard about this is "bla bla bla you should have excess lands" but that argument can apply to Morphling as well. If you have that many lands, Superman is basically unstoppable.

3. Win faster through resistance. Assuming you need to win as quickly as possible, Morphling will come down turn 6 (with a mana open to defend it), and win on turn 10. CtS will come down on turn 7, be vulnerable to every kind of removal imaginable, and kill on turn 10 assuming your opponent literally did nothing and you retraced CtS a second time in the interim. Morphling can easily win through resistance, CtS requires significantly more time to do so entirely because of how vulnerable the individual tokens are.

4. Make your opponent struggle to stall a game. CtS can be stolen through stuff like Threads of Disloyalty, Shackles, Sower of Temptation, Control Magic, blown up by Engineered Explosives, killed by just about any non-red targeted removal, and bounced. How much of that is Phling vulnerable too? None. That makes stalling against it very very hard. This is extremely relevant against decks like Threshold that will be trying to squeeze those last points of damage in against you when you drop a win-condition hoping to create a quagmire in the red-zone.

Both cards are equally vulnerable to mass-removal, although to be frank, I don't think I've ever had a Morphling killed by anything other than a Diabolic Edict (which was irrelevant, because I had the second Phling and killed him the following turn). Seriously, it's not at all difficult to conserve countermagic for cards like... Wrath, which is played in one common deck (UWx Landstill), Humility, which only shows up in UWx Landstill as well, and Pernicious Deed, which is rarely if ever saved for Phling.

The major difference between the two with regards to Mass-removal is that CtS will come back afterwards. Yes, this is true, but as I said before, it's also extremely vulnerable to literally every kind of removal there is and will force you to go time much more than Phling will simply because of how easy it is to stall with.

In addition to the aforementioned reasons, Morphling is also better than CtS when you haven't won yet. With 7 mana, which is the minimum to play CtS, it can essentially block and kill anything. With a bit more mana it can attack and block and kill anything. I've actually won games by having 10+ lands out and being able to attack and block Dreadnaught in addition to having Morphling survive. CtS wouldn't have worked there because Dreadnaught tramples over, which given the prevalence Dreadstill in my metagame is quite relevant.

I have never once found a situation where all of the hypothetical things that CtS could do better than Morphling have actually come up. No one plays mono-white control (except for you, Jack) and by splitting your win-conditions between Morphling and CtS, you essentially remove any weaknesses to mass-removal that might've existed against say, Landstill. Landstill also has Extirpate coming out of the board, and considering the only coherent argument I've heard for CtS is that its better against control, having it be extirpated against Landstill and then promptly losing because of it seems... well bad. Diversification is good, and Morphling is the best overall win-condition available because of its versatility, speed, and complete immunity to targeted removal.

[frogboy]

How come no one is really bringing up Meloku? I thought that he Just. Wins. Games. ? Or was that just standard/black of 2005/6?

In Standard no one could tap a white and kill your guy, then play more threats and attack you. Or at least if they tapped a red and killed your guy, you got to swipe their best animal.


2. Speaking of win conditions, the variant with EE can conceivably support a singleton DoJ off of a plains.

False trump. Any deck that actually wants to kill you with DoJ can remove an in-play EE with only a mild amount of effort.

Do people actually whine about the clock and play worse cards instead of just learning to play faster? That baffles me.


Assuming you need to win as quickly as possible, Morphling will come down turn 6 (with a mana open to defend it), and win on turn 10. CtS will come down on turn 7, be vulnerable to every kind of removal imaginable

Right, because Morphling is completely safe in this situation. You can shroud him! Well, once at least. Come on, have some intellectual honesty.


1. Attack and block the following turn. CtS can only do this if you have a land and seven open mana.

I think you need more than 23 lands for either Morphling or Skybreaker but apparently people hate making drops so whatever. Meanwhile, if you're for some reason racing, is the other guy actually going to be able to beat dragon-go every turn?

[Kadaj]

Right, because Morphling is completely safe in this situation. You can shroud him! Well, once at least. Come on, have some intellectual honesty.

Once is better than none, last time I checked. And in my experience, once is almost always enough, because most opponents will actively attempt to get rid of removal in their hands if they can against this deck. Why? Because for all intents and purposes, it's dead against us.

Edit:

Maybe that won't be able to deal with dragon go, but that's assuming that you actually have that many lands to pitch, which given that you're racing, you might very well not have. It also costs more mana and more cards to make that work than just using Morphling, which matters when your individual threats (the tokens themselves) can be killed by almost anything aimed their way.

And for the record, I play 25 lands at minimum... so yeah.

[frogboy]

Once is better than none, last time I checked.

Well, instead of being kold to double spot removal spell or anything nontargeted, you could just start trading your lands for their spells.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

On speed:

"Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast".

Morphling can be faster than CtS. It's also easier for it to be dealt with and leave you with nothing for a dozen turns. CtS is a turn or two slower in the ideal situation, but you know what? CtS is never going to give you up. It's never going to let you down.

@Tao: I think the problem here is that you're trying to compare Morphling to CtS on aspects other than the one that gets either of them consideration. There can be absolutely zero dispute from serious individuals that CtS offers more inevitability than Morphling. Morphling has no way of ducking counters or discard or non-targeted removal, and no way of coming back if any of those things happen, or if you have to tap out for whatever reason and he gets double, even triple Swords'd; it's not like decks have a lot else to do with their creature removal.[/@Tao]

I can't answer to what people see on MWS. Wrath, Deed, Warren's Weirding, let alone Counterspell and Thoughtseize, aren't too rare in real life.

If you're reduced to saying, "I'm not going to argue about this anymore", then you're conceding from the debate, if not the actual underlying point. That being said, maybe you'd be better off not posting such on this forum at all, since the entire purpose of it is informed discussion in pursuit of knowledge.

I have no idea where you think that you simply crush other control decks, so you don't need to worry about that matchup, but you don't. If anyone wants this demonstrated, we can go on MWS. Most other control decks have ways to deal with counters, their own card advantage, and more importantly, threats that are harder to answer than Morphling. Eternal Dragon and Decree of Justice in particular. God forbid you should ever have to play against an MBC variant.

Also, can people stop gerrymandering the argument?

Are we talking about the scenario where we're trying to seal the deal? Then I'll say CtS is better because there's no worries about removal being more than a one-turn speedbump.

Are we talking about the scenario where we're racing off the top? I'lll still say CtS for the above.

Are we desperately staving off some threat? I'll say Morphling is better here if you're at more than four but less than seven mana. Afterwards, CtS, because if you're still drawing lands instead of that Shackles you need to deal with a lone Tarmogoyf, CtS will keep you alive. Also, it can realistically take out a Tombstalker the same turn it's dropped.

Do we have counters or not? If we have sufficient counters around to deal with whatever the enemy produces, then we do. If we don't have sufficient counters, then Morphling and CtS can both die and be countered. But only one stays dead.

I personally wouldn't use counters to protect CtS 80% of the time. I'd save them for preventing the opponent from doing anything and let my excess lands be threats.

The benefit to CtS is in the late game, it means that every card you draw is relevant, whether land or spell. You run 24 land. How many removal spells do they run?

Not to mention the scenario where we Fact or Fiction or TfK early on and want to discard the clunky kill condition.

This gerrymandering is ridiculous. You say that Morphling is better because you always have counters to protect it with while winning the game, but CtS is terrible because you sit there with nothing while it dies. What is the actual scenario here?

Also, do you drop Morphling with no mana open, or one, or two, or three, or what? The answer I'm currently getting is, "I use magical powers to know what's ideal for this situation and act accordingly". Which is fantastic to have when your big scary kill condition eats it to Lightning Bolt.

[Kadaj]

Also, can people stop gerrymandering the argument?

Are we talking about the scenario where we're trying to seal the deal? Then I'll say CtS is better because there's no worries about removal being more than a one-turn speedbump.

And I would say that you're being naive if you think you will always have a land to pitch. Or the ability to tap out every single turn to spit out another vulnerable 5/5. Morphling is also faster, as I've been saying this entire time and you've been gerrymandering around, which is equally important when you are trying to seal the deal.


Are we talking about the scenario where we're racing off the top? I'lll still say CtS for the above.

And I'll say Morphling because it can deal with any singular threat just as well, if not better, than CtS, and doesn't rely on drawing lands off the top (cards you don't want at this point) to be good.


Are we desperately staving off some threat? I'll say Morphling is better here if you're at more than four but less than seven mana. Afterwards, CtS, because if you're still drawing lands instead of that Shackles you need to deal with a lone Tarmogoyf, CtS will keep you alive. Also, it can realistically take out a Tombstalker the same turn it's dropped.

Have you ever actually read Morphling? You do understand that Morphling can easily deal with a single Tarmogoyf AND still attack at the same time? Same thing applies to Tombstalker. Seriously, is it that hard to understand that Morphling has essentially limitless toughness once you get to 8+ mana? Between that and the fact that Morphling can also kill a Tombstalker the turn it comes down, I'd say this entire point is flat-out wrong.


Do we have counters or not? If we have sufficient counters around to deal with whatever the enemy produces, then we do. If we don't have sufficient counters, then Morphling and CtS can both die and be countered. But only one stays dead.

I personally wouldn't use counters to protect CtS 80% of the time. I'd save them for preventing the opponent from doing anything and let my excess lands be threats.

The benefit to CtS is in the late game, it means that every card you draw is relevant, whether land or spell. You run 24 land. How many removal spells do they run?

Not to mention the scenario where we Fact or Fiction or TfK early on and want to discard the clunky kill condition.

This is probably the only advantage CtS has over Morphling, and it isn't enough to justify cutting the more powerful win-condition for it entirely. A split between them sure, but not entirely.


This gerrymandering is ridiculous. You say that Morphling is better because you always have counters to protect it with while winning the game, but CtS is terrible because you sit there with nothing while it dies. What is the actual scenario here?

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not saying that. I'm saying that Morphling is better because it require no other cards to be good, it's faster when you need it to be, and it is completely invulnerable to targeted removal. Yes, Phling is worse against Mass-Removal, but for all of the aforementioned reasons, it would be a mistake to cut them entirely for CtS.


Also, do you drop Morphling with no mana open, or one, or two, or three, or what? The answer I'm currently getting is, "I use magical powers to know what's ideal for this situation and act accordingly". Which is fantastic to have when your big scary kill condition eats it to Lightning Bolt.

Lightning bolt is an irrelevant argument because CtS is even worse against decks that play burn precisely because of how slow it is. And because those are exactly the decks that will simply spend two removal spells to kill the token and swing through for the win because of how those matchups.

I have dropped Morphling with no mana open once in sanctioned play, and that was because my opponent had no hand and I had double FoW in hand. In more standard situations, I drop it with anywhere between 1 to 3+ mana open depending on how many cards my opponent has in hand and how much removal I believe them to be playing. When both numbers are greater, I wait. When they're lower, I play it earlier.

[Nightmare]

I have dropped Morphling with no mana open once in sanctioned play, and that was because my opponent had no hand and I had double FoW in hand. In more standard situations, I drop it with anywhere between 1 to 3+ mana open depending on how many cards my opponent has in hand and how much removal I believe them to be playing. When both numbers are greater, I wait. When they're lower, I play it earlier.

So if you're waiting until you have between 6-8 mana available, how exactly is Morphling faster than CtS?

[Kadaj]

So if you're waiting until you have between 6-8 mana available, how exactly is Morphling faster than CtS?

6 is less than 7, yeah? Morphling also doesn't get blown away by Swords to Plowshares, Snuff Out, or any number of targeted removal spells that would slow CtS down, so Phling will likely still be faster in matchups where it actually matters because he can't be stalled by the aforementioned cards.

The sort of situation where the relative speed of a win-condition would actually matter is usually one where you're under significant pressure, either on the board or on your life-total, and you don't have the kind of time to wait until you have 8 mana, regardless of which card you're playing. In that situation, I'll take Morphling any day of the week because it is extremely hard to stall and does not require you to invest counterspells to protect it from targeted removal when they (your counterspells) will almost always have better targets.

These matchups are also almost never control matchups, where mass-removal would actually be present on the other side of the table. That combination of factors makes CtS weaker than Morphling because its harder to cast, takes longer to exercise its invulnerability, and is easier to temporarily remove to allow for quick little bursts of damage that usually result in a loss when playing against Aggro or Aggro-Control.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

And I would say that you're being naive if you think you will always have a land to pitch. Or the ability to tap out every single turn to spit out another vulnerable 5/5. Morphling is also faster, as I've been saying this entire time and you've been gerrymandering around, which is equally important when you are trying to seal the deal.

In what way is it faster? There's no way for it to be faster without playing into removal.


And I'll say Morphling because it can deal with any singular threat just as well, if not better, than CtS, and doesn't rely on drawing lands off the top (cards you don't want at this point) to be good.

This is grossly incorrect and displays an unwillingness to be serious. Morphling is worse against Tarmogoyf, against Tombstalker, against Gigapede and Demigod, against Master of Etherium, against Eternal Dragon, and against any other large creature, which increasingly make up the creature base in Legacy.


Have you ever actually read Morphling? You do understand that Morphling can easily deal with a single Tarmogoyf AND still attack at the same time? Same thing applies to Tombstalker. Seriously, is it that hard to understand that Morphling has essentially limitless toughness once you get to 8+ mana? Between that and the fact that Morphling can also kill a Tombstalker the turn it comes down, I'd say this entire point is flat-out wrong.

Oh, we're at the eight mana stage. That's good to know. I thought we were talking about who's good early on? Morphling is usually a Shrouded Hill Giant the turn it comes into play, but yeah, if your'e already winning the game by the time you untap, if you untap with it, with eight mana open, whoo. Arguably better than Call the Skybreaker then, I tell you howdy.

Of course, you need nine mana to have Morphling block, kill a Tombstalker, live, and not eat it to a Snuff Out/StP somewhere along the way.

Ten mana if they have two removal spells.


I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not saying that. I'm saying that Morphling is better because it require no other cards to be good,

Well, eight untapped Islands.

Although, lots of people have found 5/5 flyers to be already good, but you seem to be operating under your own definitions here.


it's faster when you need it to be, and it is completely invulnerable to targeted removal.

It never seems to do these two at the same time.


Lightning bolt is an irrelevant argument because CtS is even worse against decks that play burn precisely because of how slow it is.

Answer me how much mana you have open to protect Morphling when you drop it, because this point seems to be like nailing jello to the wall. It's very frustrating, you understand, that you keep dropping Morphling much faster than CtS, going the distance each turn while always having mana open for Shrouding or counters where needed, since this isn't how the card seems to work in my time zone.


And because those are exactly the decks that will simply spend two removal spells to kill the token and swing through for the win because of how those matchups.

For two removal spells, they could take out Morphling if you had less than 7 Islands when you cast him.

The biggest distinction between CtS and Morphling there is that Morphling doesn't require targeting since he can't block a real threat that turn without dying anyway.


I have dropped Morphling with no mana open once in sanctioned play, and that was because my opponent had no hand and I had double FoW in hand. In more standard situations, I drop it with anywhere between 1 to 3+ mana open depending on how many cards my opponent has in hand and how much removal I believe them to be playing. When both numbers are greater, I wait. When they're lower, I play it earlier.

So you usually drop it the same turn as CtS, when it's still in your hand, when it's not countered.

Why is it faster than CtS?

[Kadaj]

In what way is it faster? There's no way for it to be faster without playing into removal.

You're making the mistake of assuming an opponent will always have 9001 removal spells. They won't. And as you've said repeatedly, if you try to play against your opponents god hands, you can't win, especially with a control deck.




This is grossly incorrect and displays an unwillingness to be serious. Morphling is worse against Tarmogoyf, against Tombstalker, against Gigapede and Demigod, against Master of Etherium, against Eternal Dragon, and against any other large creature, which increasingly make up the creature base in Legacy.

This is false for the same reasons I've stated over and over again. You know why people hate arguing with you? Because you dodge opposing points by rubbishing them without actually providing a single legitimate reason why they're invalid. How, exactly, is Morphling even remotely worse against large threats? It can easily block them and live, all the while still attacking through (this requires a grand total of maybe 5 mana if all you care about is getting damage through will still being able to block). For comparison, CtS requires 7 mana, a land, and can't attack throughout this process.


Oh, we're at the eight mana stage. That's good to know. I thought we were talking about who's good early on? Morphling is usually a Shrouded Hill Giant the turn it comes into play, but yeah, if your'e already winning the game by the time you untap, if you untap with it, with eight mana open, whoo. Arguably better than Call the Skybreaker then, I tell you howdy.

Of course, you need nine mana to have Morphling block, kill a Tombstalker, live, and not eat it to a Snuff Out/StP somewhere along the way.

Ten mana if they have two removal spells.

I repeat, you're making the mistake of assuming your opponent will always have a ton of removal. They. Will. Not. For two reasons: First, most decks do not play a ton of removal in the first place. Second, decks like Threshold will actively attempt to shuffle their removal away looking for more relevant cards.


Well, eight untapped Islands.

Although, lots of people have found 5/5 flyers to be already good, but you seem to be operating under your own definitions here.

It never seems to do these two at the same time.

No, I don't find vulnerable 5/5 fliers to be good. Especially 5/5 fliers that require you discard lands to bring it back, which you continuously assume you will have a limitless supply of. I find that hard to believe because, I don't know about you, but I like to make my land drops with this deck. That means I usually don't have a lot of land in my hand. This makes Morphling better, and CtS worse.


Answer me how much mana you have open to protect Morphling when you drop it, because this point seems to be like nailing jello to the wall. It's very frustrating, you understand, that you keep dropping Morphling much faster than CtS, going the distance each turn while always having mana open for Shrouding or counters where needed, since this isn't how the card seems to work in my time zone.

It requires a single mana open the turn you drop it. Stop acting like people haven't said that before, and stop trying to claim that Morphling isn't faster than CtS is in that situation. Swinging on turn 7 is faster than swinging on turn 8. If you disagree with that, I don't know what to say to you.


For two removal spells, they could take out Morphling if you had less than 7 Islands when you cast him.

The biggest distinction between CtS and Morphling there is that Morphling doesn't require targeting since he can't block a real threat that turn without dying anyway.

And you can't even cast CtS on turn 6 anyway. I'll give the advantage to Morphling there.


So you usually drop it the same turn as CtS, when it's still in your hand, when it's not countered.

Why is it faster than CtS?

Because it doesn't get stalled by cards like StP, Snuff Out, Vedalken Shackles, etc. Which, in case you haven't noticed, are pretty prevalent.

[Jason]

You're making the mistake of assuming an opponent will always have 9001 removal spells. They won't. And as you've said repeatedly, if you try to play against your opponents god hands, you can't win, especially with a control deck.

Ummm...it's turn 6/7/8/x ... game 1, I wouldn't consider that a God-hand. I would consider that a situation where the opponent was drawing dead cards against you that have now become extremely relevant. I thought part of the reason to play this deck was to make your opponents' cards useless against you. Why would you want to make them usable again?


This is false for the same reasons I've stated over and over again. You know why people hate arguing with you? Because you dodge opposing points by rubbishing them without actually providing a single legitimate reason why they're invalid. How, exactly, is Morphling even remotely worse against large threats? It can easily block them and live, all the while still attacking through (this requires a grand total of maybe 5 mana if all you care about is getting damage through will still being able to block). For comparison, CtS requires 7 mana, a land, and can't attack throughout this process.

I think IBA is referring to the fact is Morphling is oftentimes worse against large threats the turn it comes down than Call the Skybreaker would be the turn it comes down. The turn Morphling comes down, you need 5 mana to cast, 1-3 for counterspell/shroud, 5-7 to eat the opponent's creature and live. For Morphling to be good the turn it comes down against fat, you will need 11-15 mana available, which is opposed to the 7 for Call the Skybreaker.

After you untap, Morphling should be just as viable as Call the Skybreaker for any situation.


I repeat, you're making the mistake of assuming your opponent will always have a ton of removal. They. Will. Not. For two reasons: First, most decks do not play a ton of removal in the first place. Second, decks like Threshold will actively attempt to shuffle their removal away looking for more relevant cards.

Opponents will be trying to shuffle excess removal away, but come turn 6/7/8/x, your opponent will have probably drawn more. Not a "ton", but enough if you are dropping Morphling with only 1 mana available after Morphling resolved then it will definitely be vulnerable. (these decks will attempt to counter your Superman...Daze making one less shroud on Morphling...Force of Will that needs to be countered...etc.) Will Morphling live most of the time when you have 1 mana available after it resolved? Sure, but there will be enough situations to warrant consideration for something new.

The non-threshold/non-landstill decks, on the other hand, have no real way to shuffle away dead removal. This means these decks will probably have a "ton" of removal (if by a ton, you mean 2...maybe 3).


No, I don't find vulnerable 5/5 fliers to be good. Especially 5/5 fliers that require you discard lands to bring it back, which you continuously assume you will have a limitless supply of. I find that hard to believe because, I don't know about you, but I like to make my land drops with this deck. That means I usually don't have a lot of land in my hand. This makes Morphling better, and CtS worse.

The thing is, these tokens are just as vulnerable as Morphling but in different ways. Call the Skybreaker is vulnerable to Extirpate and graveyard hate. The tokens can be stolen by Vedalken Shackles, Sower of Temptation, or even Threads of Disloyalty. Recurring Engineered Explosives sucks too (I run 1 Academy Ruins in my deck to stop that shenanigans...and to recur Powder Keg!) I'm not worried about Call the Skybreaker being countered or even worried about them using spot removal on it. It will get there eventually. If you say it won't because your opponent's horde of creatures or threats on turn 7 is overwhelming...well...I'm pretty sure Morphling wouldn't get there either.

Morphling dies to mass removal, Fact or Fiction it away, counterspells, and more often than not sucks the turn it comes into play by not being 100% immune (multiple targeted removal may get there).

Everyone knows the pros and cons of both creatures.

[Arsenal]

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[mans0011]

So, 8 consecutive pages later...

We've come to the conclusion that it depends on what you want. And it's a matter of personal preference. /shrug

There is always going to be "the best card" for any given situation, I guess it's just a matter of tallying up those situations and how often you run into them.

[Arsenal]

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To those who run fetches, Plains, Swamp, and EEs, how are you liking that config over Keg or Disk? I have a playset of EEs, but haven't really been using them (other than Faerie Stompy SB). Does EE @ 3 prove to be too detrimental if you've already had to commit B2B, Propaganda, and Shackles to the board? How often you do find yourself EE @ 3, as opposed to EE @ 1 or 2? What types of cards do you often find yourself EEing that Keg could not? Counterbalance? I'm curious to know as I have never used the fetchland, EE config.

[Barsoom]

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[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Magic the Gathering is not a game of artistic merit and warm feelings. It's a game of math and resource management.

There are decisions that are right or wrong based on the situation at hand.

There are no decisions that are right or wrong based on personal preference or what you want. "What you want" is to win. Anything that doesn't give you the greatest chance of winning is wrong.

Expounded; http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=6596


There are no spectacular plays. There are no"good" plays. There are no plays for which you should pat yourself on the back. There is only the right play and a huge number of other plays, none of which are the particular right play, and therefore what we call"mistakes." You may not know what the right play is and therefore make a mistake; the great thing about mistakes is that you have the opportunity to make them almost constantly in Magic: you can err with every stack, step, and phase, and sometimes with plays not on the stack, like playing land, tapping a Talisman, or morphing up a creature (and I mean"great" in terms of volume, not in the sense of quality to you, the player, obviously).

Now this is a hard thing to get your head around, and especially for players who have a hard time with patriarchal explanations of the universe, probably a controversial definition. Despite the fact that I was working with none other than Jon Finkel, I resisted this definition myself (likely, in hindsight, because I was making so many mistakes and didn't want to own up to them).

On every stack of every turn, there is one exact right thing that you should do. One. There is a particular land that you should play. There is a particular order in which you should cast your spells. There are hands that you should mulligan, even when you have lands and spells, and there are times that you should go out on a limb, praying that you draw mana. Any time you deviate from the exact right play, you are making a mistake. That is not to say that there are not varying degrees of mistakes; some are fairly harmless (tapping a Coastal Tower when you have a large number of both Islands and Plains in play), some are more relevant, such that they may or may not cost you games (tapping a Salt Marsh for generic mana when you may later have to tap an Underground River for colored mana), and there are some fairly lethal ones (whatever you just did that cost you the game that you didn't think would cost you the game at the time, but ended up costing you the game what a bad beat). Keep in mind that even the mildest mistakes, like that first Coastal Tower example, are bad in the sense that making them will lead to a pattern in your play that will eventually catch up with your W/L column.

It applies to deckbuilding as much as actual gameplay.

That being said, I'm increasingly intrigued by the white splash for DoJ and Eternal Dragon, which are simply much better kill conditions.

But this leads down to the question, eventually, of whether U/W Landstill isn't just a better deck. It could probably run Shackles if it wanted to. Hell, cut the manlands for DoJ and Dragon and you could run B2B in the board.

[4eak]

@ TheInfamousBearAssassin


That being said, I'm increasingly intrigued by the white splash for DoJ and Eternal Dragon, which are simply much better kill conditions.

But this leads down to the question, eventually, of whether U/W Landstill isn't just a better deck. It could probably run Shackles if it wanted to. Hell, cut the manlands for DoJ and Dragon and you could run B2B in the board.

Beyond just the win condition, I think the best reason to play the white splash is that MUC's board control options are often in conflict with B2B, and a splash won't have that problem.

Perhaps you'd be interested in this then:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=295798#post295798



peace,
4eak

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

My first thought is that running 4x B2B when you already run Tutor seems like a waste.

My second was that you still want 1x Disk, just since you can tutor for it.

My next thought after that was that Standstill would be a great tutorable draw engine that works really well with Decree of Justice.

Yeah. It went there.

Maybe that's the best direction to go, though. A more nuts and bolts Draw-Go approach to Landstill, with a somewhat stronger manabase and Shackles.

[Mordel]

I have a UW deck that is more or less draw-go spliced together UW landstill with tutors. I'm sure that it needs some tuning, but it gives me a pretty good idea of how the deck would work...meh. I'd rather just play 4c landstill or muc then again I am not really keen on going through hybridizing two archetypes and then tuning it from the ground up if I am not really too excited about it after the first few test matches. It could be pretty good, but it was sort of clunky to me.

[Doks]

To those who run fetches, Plains, Swamp, and EEs, how are you liking that config over Keg or Disk? I have a playset of EEs, but haven't really been using them (other than Faerie Stompy SB). Does EE @ 3 prove to be too detrimental if you've already had to commit B2B, Propaganda, and Shackles to the board? How often you do find yourself EE @ 3, as opposed to EE @ 1 or 2? What types of cards do you often find yourself EEing that Keg could not? Counterbalance? I'm curious to know as I have never used the fetchland, EE config.


I see it more like a safe EE@2, but there were times I used it @3, too.
Against certain decks like Fairy oder Dragon Stompy EE@3 is quite important and safe as they have no way to get rid of you basics plains and swamp.
Once you survived the first 1 or 2 attackers, a resolved shackles does the rest.
I have even killed things like Choke with it - where Plains + Swamp payed the 2 activation cost. But most important, it's usually a turn faster than Keg even if it is played as an answer AFTER the thread resolved (I guess in perm-based MUC you play Keg proactive and let it @1 until you see a threat you want to let slip through).

So I'd either run a targetted chep and flexible removal artifact as EE or a complete reset button like Disk instead of Keg which I you usually have to play in pure MUC builds if you don't run Disk.

[Arsenal]

I think I'll try the fetchland/EE config for a while. I've been satisfied with Keg, but the few times a problematic enchantment resolves, it's been :cry: for me.

[4eak]

@ Doks

With a 'slightly' multi-colored mana-base for EE, do you ever find yourself tempted to push the envelope just a bit more and splash? I know I would be tempted by:

-StP
-Cunning Wish Board
-Eternal Dragon (just 2 or 3 plains in a deck make this dude viable)

I've found Disk to be flat out better than EE in straight up Draw/Go, but if we were splashing for more than EE I think it would be much easier to justify. If you are tempted at all to splash, why don't you?

I guess while I wait for your answer I'll try out something like this:

CQ/CA: 8
4x Brainstorm
4x Fact or Fiction

Permission: 14
4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
3x Mana Leak
3x Force Spike/Spell Snare

Board Control: 13
3x Vedalken Shackles
3x EE
3x B2B
4x StP

Win-Stuff: 2
1x Meloku/Efreet/Morphling/etc.
1x Eternal Dragon

Mana-Base: 23
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
10x Island
3x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Tundra


(I can think of a few people who might be thinking that this is just going towards Landstill. I genuinely think this deck isn't Landstill, especially because it plays B2B, plays a ton of basics, sports a heavy permission base, and abuses shackles heavily. The splash for non blue mana makes it not exactly MUC though, so perhaps the post belongs elsewhere).


peace,
4eak

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Why wouldn't you run DoJ in the Morphling/Whatever slot? It's not like you're not already vulnerable to Stifle, but DoJ is a freakin' instant-speed, usually uncounterable beating.

Would the Esper Fetch be worth running in this deck?

[Shawon]

Has anyone considered Draining Whelk in Draw-Go? Too slow, or too hit-or-miss with many spells costing 3 or less?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I thought about it. A kill condition mix of Whelk, Mulldrifter and Venser might work in a Mono-U shell, since they all serve duplicate roles and are less constraining on the card slots. But how often is Whelk going to be much more than a six mana Mystic Snake?

[Jason]

CQ/CA: 8
4x Brainstorm
4x Fact or Fiction

Permission: 14
4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
3x Mana Leak
3x Force Spike/Spell Snare

Board Control: 13
3x Vedalken Shackles
3x EE
3x B2B
4x StP

Win-Stuff: 2
1x Meloku/Efreet/Morphling/etc.
1x Eternal Dragon

Mana-Base: 23
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
10x Island
3x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Tundra


I have found most of the time Shackles and Keg to be enough board control for creatures in the early game. It seems like having Force Spike/Spell Snare and Swords to Plowshares along with Shackles and now Explosives in such high numbers, we are overplaying the early game. Could we cut the Force Spike/Spell Snare/Mana Leak and run 2x Decree and another Shackles or Explosives?

Would running Academy Ruins be bad here? Yes, it is no good after Back to Basics but recurring Explosives could be a valid option, right? I currently run it for recurring Powder Keg if Back to Basics isn't online and it never hurts anything if B2B is in play. I can see a 1-of being a solid addition...

[johanessen]

Btw a Trix deck reached top4 in a 162player tournament in spain

[4eak]

@ TheInfamousBearAssassin


Why wouldn't you run DoJ in the Morphling/Whatever slot? It's not like you're not already vulnerable to Stifle, but DoJ is a freakin' instant-speed, usually uncounterable beating.

Yeah, I have no problem with DoJ in that slot (currently using it myself). It's the tweak-win condition slot. A second E-Dragon isn't terrible either.


Would the Esper Fetch be worth running in this deck?

Totally forgot about that card. Will try it out. It does play around B2B for the most part. It doesn't tap for blue the turn it comes into play, and that would be the only thing I can hold against it. I think a singleton Tundra does a lot for smoothing though.


@ Shawon


Has anyone considered Draining Whelk in Draw-Go? Too slow, or too hit-or-miss with many spells costing 3 or less?

Tested that card extensively. It is very conditional, comes into play too late, and it has zero resistance to board control. As a threat, it is a poor choice.

It also fails as a permission spell. Because the CC of the targeted spell affects the offensive potency of Whelk, instead of serving as a solid late game counter, you are forced to play around the card to make real use of it. We have too few slots open to play the card. I'd be more interested in Spelljack, Foil, or Time Stop if I wanted unique permission.


@ Jason


I have found most of the time Shackles and Keg to be enough board control for creatures in the early game. It seems like having Force Spike/Spell Snare and Swords to Plowshares along with Shackles and now Explosives in such high numbers, we are overplaying the early game.

The early game of MUC always needs improvement. Between EE/Shackles/FoF/Brainstorm(shuffled) I think our mid and late game is chuck full of card advantage and board control.

1 for 1 until you can drop a bomb and AoE yourself into relevant card advantage that your opponent can't match.


Would running Academy Ruins be bad here? Yes, it is no good after Back to Basics but recurring Explosives could be a valid option, right?

Worth testing. I didn't include it because some might consider it a controversial choice (although, I'm not scared to play a few non-basics in MUC, even with B2B in the main).





peace,
4eak

[Doks]

With a 'slightly' multi-colored mana-base for EE, do you ever find yourself tempted to push the envelope just a bit more and splash?

Sure I was. Have tried it out few times, ending up with this (quite old, late summer this year):

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
1 Tundra
11 Island


1 Morphling
1 Decree of Justice
2 Hoofprints of the Stag


4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare

4 Brainstorm
4 Fact or Fiction
2 Meditate

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Back to Basics

Little bit of explanation:

With 4 StoP I felt 12 counters to be enough - instead of Mana Leaking / Force Spiking the 2nd Turn Confidant / Tarmogoyf / whathaveyou I just plowed it for only W.
Hoofprints were quite cool, but only slightly better for winning in certain situations (too funny watching Sui & Co. dying to it and really good against Burn since I had the mana open to counter important burn spells after playing it) and 1 time it I was like "wtf?!" when a random G/W weenie deck gripped Hoofprints both times with 3 counters on it...
Decree is always awesome: either it buys you time and - with a little bit of luck - kills a non-threshed Mongose on T4 or just wins games surprisingly as nobody expects DoJ after Force, Counterspell, Shackles, B2B and EE.
With StoP as the cheapest pinpoint removal available to this deck now (read: don't take too much damage in the opponent's extra turn), I wanted to replace the Accumulated Knowledges which I had run before with another raw CA spell since I felt and still feel only BS and FoF not to be enough for this game plan - so I chose Meditate (after following it's inclusion in TEC and opening a thread in the format discussion forum); synergistic with Hoofprints, too.

The main reason to splash was still StoP - if U could do any equivalent thing like StoP does for W at CC1, I would switch to pure MUC every day at once - but meh, who wouldn't ... ? -.-'
The other options W offers are quite good options, but I wouldn't play them if I wasn't going to play StoP.


I can't think of any clear list for stack-oriented MUC since I haven't played for about 8 weeks now, but maybe a very light splash version just like Dreadstill splashes could work (less W sources, only 3 StoP, less B2B, more Academy Ruins ... )

[mackaber]

Word up peeps: check out this newest MUC concoction I've come up with. I built the list considering Tao's Idea of only playing utility creatures and checking out some Mono Blue extended lists. Looks real strange on paper but I'm 9-1 in matches with it on MWS against only serious opponents beating TA, 3 Dreadstill decs, 1 Quinn, dredge, a pox, a rock, aggro loam and a couple of randomish decs, my only loss being to dredge. Voila:

// Lands
12 [10E] Island (3)
1 [UNH] Plains
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [RAV] Swamp (4)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation

// Spells
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [TSP] Think Twice
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Counterspell
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [LRW] Cryptic Command
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [FNM] Fact or Fiction

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
SB: 4 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast

I had been running the same basic setup minus the 8 faeries plus 4 force spike 2 morphlings a CtS and an extra Cryptic command to satisfying results but wanted to give the faeries a try after seeing how awesome clique from the SB was.
Vendillion Clique definetly is the real deal fitting the draw go strategy nicely and being incredibly good at handling opposing recursion.
Also I really have to recomend to everyone to test Cryptic command it's fantastic I really want to find room for a third but I'd be overloading my 4 drop. I kind of feel like I should add land number 23 but I'm not quite sure what to cut, all the games I've lost so far have been due to manafumbling or getting a fetchland stifled.
Spellstutter sprite has been solid but not amazing but still better than force spike, altough I might have to continue to run spikes for fear of loosing hard to aggro. The nice thing about running spellstutter is the fact that I now have 19 hard counters in a dec that never has to spend more than 3 mana on it's turn. There's really no way to loose the lategame with that permission set.

[Jason]

I really do like the list 4eak proposed earlier... The only question I have is why have a random Swamp to get EE to 3? Why not run 1x Volcanic Island? It seems that red would be a better "splash" for sideboard purposes. Plus it won't hurt in hitting UU if it is in your opening hand (Swamp can be annoying)...

The decklist could look something like with emphasis on the sideboard:

4x Brainstorm
4x Fact or Fiction

4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
3x Mana Leak
3x Spell Snare

3x Vedalken Shackles
3x Engineered Explosives
3x Swords to Plowshares
3x Back to Basics

1x Morphling
1x Decree of Justice
1x Eternal Dragon

4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
10x Island
1x Plains
1x Volcanic Island
2x Tundra
1x Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
2x Dismantling Blow
2x Blue Elemental Blast
3x Propaganda
3x Pyroclasm
2x Red Elemental Blast
3x Relic of Progenitus

The Red Blasts could strengthen the control matchups or stop Stifle if necessary. Pyroclasm and Propaganda would help the goblins matchups; they would also go together and help a little for the ichorid matchups. Dismantling Blow is there if your opponent is playing something annoying like Choke or Humility. I think this would be a better "splash" than black. What does everyone think?

[mackaber]

The Red Blasts could strengthen the control matchups or stop Stifle if necessary. Pyroclasm and Propaganda would help the goblins matchups; they would also go together and help a little for the ichorid matchups. Dismantling Blow is there if your opponent is playing something annoying like Choke or Humility. I think this would be a better "splash" than black. What does everyone think?

Boarding in cards you are splashing off of 1 dual and a total of 9 sources versus goblins seems very suicidal. Also you can't board red blast too well off the single volcanic versus decs that have wastelands which incidently an aweful lot of blue decs have. Also I don't like the fact that your running 4 non basics with b2b md. You also have to consider that this dec is more mana hungry than pretty much any other dec and thus loosing but a single land to b2b can hurt considerably, also eternal dragon's recursion is turned of completly under B2B.

[4eak]

@ Jason


I really do like the list 4eak proposed earlier... The only question I have is why have a random Swamp to get EE to 3?Clearly the 3rd color could be a dual land, which does help for fetching. However, it might be difficult to keep that third color for EE's through opposing Wastelands or your own B2B locking you out.


Why not run 1x Volcanic Island? It seems that red would be a better "splash" for sideboard purposes. I'm not convinced Red is a real splash beyond EE. I think White is the only realistic splash for spells in MUC (awkward to call it MUC).


3x Swords to PlowsharesDoesn't this make you cry inside? The card really deserves 4x if you are going to play it at all.


1x Plains
1x Volcanic Island
2x Tundra
1x Academy RuinsAcademy Ruins was "okay", but not amazing. Because it is mana intensive, I found the card most usable in the late game only. This is problematic when I want to have B2B in play.

You need 2x Basic Plains minimum to make Eternal Dragon viable. I suggest 3x because it allows you to eat a Sinkhole and because it gives you more Cycling use of Eternal Dragon.


@ mackaber


Also I don't like the fact that your running 4 non basics with b2b md. Even if he ran 8 non-basics, MUC would still have a much larger ratio of basics to non-basics than most decks.

You don't need to be immune to B2B to benefit from it. You just need to be hit less than your opponent by B2B to break its symmetry. Jason's list breaks the symmetry of B2B by a large margin.




peace,
4eak

[Zappa]

Took me awhile reading all these pages :tongue:
Some interesting debates about card choices.

I went to my local card shop several days ago and bought the cards to pile a deck together for mono blue controll. From what I've gathered from reading all the pages that pretty much combo (TES/Fetchland tendrils) and fast aggro decks can be a real problem, due to our lack of speed and being unable to drop a fast clock (and trying to protect it after wards) once the oppnent has been slowed down.

Therefor what I was wondering about is is it a possibily to run more free counters, backed up by mass card draw to replenish the lost cards? The decklist I piled together is the following:


Lands (24)
23 Snow-covered Islands
1 Scrying Sheets

Finishers (3)
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
2 Guile

Board Controll (11)
4 Propaganda
3 Back to Basics
4 Vedalken Shackles

Counter Magic (15)
4 Force of Will
3 Foil
4 Daze
4 Counterspell

card Draw (7)
4 Fact of Fiction
3 Cryptic Command


SB: 1 Back to Basics
SB: 4 Arcane Laboratory
SB: 3 Mana Maze
SB: 3 Powder Keg
SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus


The one non-basic land I chose to run is a scrying sheets, if I get it great if not oh well. But when it is out it can help build up a nice card draw.

I decided to run 15 counter magic, 11 of which are free counters. Not so much as to counter everything, but just the key cards that poses a threat.

I decided to run Guile instead (I know Morphling is probably much better by a long shot). But with the amount of counter magic, I was thinking that he isnt too shabby either. Atleast its pretty hard to remove, as well as putting a blockade on some peoples plans. Like those attempting to win with brain freeze, painter's servant, and/or jace.

What's your opinion on running snow lands and using 1 scrying sheet?

[Waikiki]

i'd change daze into force spike or spell snare. Losing a land drop just sucks in MUC.

[4eak]

@ Zappa


What's your opinion on running snow lands and using 1 scrying sheet?

While I'm not so concerned about losing the ability to tap this card for mana when B2B is in play, I am concerned about whether you would get to use its draw ability when you play B2B in the main.

Like Academy Ruins, Scrying Sheets is a mid to late game type card that conflicts with B2B. You can abuse one or the other. To avoid this conflict, non-basics in MUC need to be early game non-basics. Quicksand is a decent example.

If you run Scrying Sheet at all, then you probably want to be running 4 of them. Additionally, in order to maximize Scrying Sheets you really need to be running Top.

If I was only running 1 or 2 of these card advantage/quality generating non-basics, I would definitely play Ruins before Scrying Sheets. I'd play Mishra's Factory before all of them though. That card rocks in the early game and it gives you additional win conditions and a better match against several decks.


4 Daze

Tell me about this choice. The loss of a land drop seems unacceptable at such an important stage of the game.



peace,
4eak

[Mordel]

Forcespike/Disrupt/Spellsnare is a no-brainer for a version that packs a heavy permission suite. I could be wrong, but I think daze being in there is more of a result of the aforementioned three being forgotten, as opposed to passed-over for daze.

[Zappa]

Well I just piled the deck together with no testing yet. Thats how it looked like. But after today, I had my friend play test with me and heres the problems I ran across...

I played against:
Affinity
White Weenie
Landstill
Burn
Ichorid-combo... this one is just... how do I win this? o_o


While the deck is packed with free counters I must say that trying to stop a spell with daze early on is a HUGE set back. Even if I can protect against next upcoming threats with Foil and Force of Will. After alot of play testing today... Daze gets a huge NO for me. You guys were right, its bad for the deck, or atleast for this build.

One thing I did notice is that I feel very secure with Foil and FoW backing me up. However, unlike FoW, using Foil makes me in a dire need for card draw.
Which is one of the questions I have...

Which instant speed draw would be best to replenish the hand?
Accumulated Knowledge?
Also would using discard outlets like masticore (Either one) combined with foil, warrant the use of the card "Obsessive Search"?
Or will that just make the deck trying to go in all sorts of different direction and just end up being unfocused?

As far as Scrying Sheets go, all my games I've never gotten a chance to use it, let alone even see it. So I don't know, however, you guys make a very good advise that with back to basics I won't really be able to use it.

But from testing...

Daze - Hate it, it really set me back big time. The loss of that land made it harder for me to respond to incoming threats even with foil and FOW back up.

Foil - I love this card, but really needs a good card draw backing it up.

Scrying Sheets - ...meh... never saw it, can't say anything. But will take your advise and not run it.

Crytic Command - as a counter its so-so. As a draw its so so, as for its versatility... I don't know I don't see mono blue control as the type that likes to be cute and tricky.

So what I am wondering if I can get some help with is... heres the new open slots:

Lands (24)
23 Snow-covered Islands
1 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Finishers (3)
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
2 Guile

Board Controll (11)
4 Propaganda
3 Back to Basics
4 Vedalken Shackles

Counter Magic (15)
4 Force of Will
3 Foil
4 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
4 Counterspell

card Draw (7)
4 Fact of Fiction
3 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

SB: 1 Back to Basics
SB: 4 Arcane Laboratory
SB: 3 Mana Maze
SB: 3 Powder Keg
SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus

Also... has anyone tested out the card "Mark of Eviction" to buy and stall time against fast creature decks?

[4eak]

@ Zappa


Ichorid-combo... this one is just... how do I win this? o_o

You don't win often against a good player. Crypt or Relic/Propaganda/Keg are your best cards, but even these won't make it a favorable matchup.


One thing I did notice is that I feel very secure with Foil and FoW backing me up. However, unlike FoW, using Foil makes me in a dire need for card draw.
Which is one of the questions I have...

Which instant speed draw would be best to replenish the hand?
Accumulated Knowledge?

I don't particularly care for Foil myself. The card disadvantage and conditions to play it in conjunction with how it rips up your early game hand (which is where you need this card the most) makes its value a toss-up in my testing.

You are forced into play raw card advantage just to overcome the drawbacks. If you go for something similar to Kadaj's permanent MUC list (which you have), then you'll need to play Ancestral Visions. Since your deck isn't scared to tap out in the main phase, then this is probably your best option.


Also would using discard outlets like masticore (Either one) combined with foil, warrant the use of the card "Obsessive Search"?
Or will that just make the deck trying to go in all sorts of different direction and just end up being unfocused?

Masticore doesn't belong in the deck. There are much better options. Obsessive Search isn't nearly as powerful as Ancestral Visions, Brainstorm, or even Ponder.


Crytic Command - as a counter its so-so. As a draw its so so, as for its versatility... I don't know I don't see mono blue control as the type that likes to be cute and tricky.

MUC is definitely tricky. This card is probably sick in Standard, but it isn't undercosted and fast enough to be playable in the main of MUC. I could see a Wish board pick up a singleton, but nothing more.

I think the card just costs too much. It isn't game breaking like a disk, a win condition, or a FoF. It is versatile at first glance, but when you take into consideration the mana cost, I think it is actually a very restrictive card.


Lands (24)
23 Snow-covered Islands
1 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Just stick to 24 plain Islands for now. That seems oversimplified, but playing straight basics has raw strength that is difficult to adjust in this deck. Tweaking your mana-base is probably the last thing you do with a deck.


2 Guile

I wasn't so impressed with this guy in testing. I think you should consider trying out a few other options.


Counter Magic (15)
4 Force of Will
3 Foil
4 XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
4 Counterspell

You are playing permanent-MUC. I don't think you should be as concerned with your permission as you are with the board itself. Those 4x permission slots need to be Powder Keg.

You cannot afford to play MUC without an artifact board clearer in main (I see Kegs in your side). Your options:

EE
Nevi's Disk
O-Stone
Keg

Considering the rest of your deck, Keg is the best option for permanent lists. If you choose to run something like Disk, then you'll need to adjust the rest of the deck to comply with its universal destruction (i.e. fewer permanents).


Also... has anyone tested out the card "Mark of Eviction" to buy and stall time against fast creature decks?

I haven't tested it, but just from reading it I can tell you that MUC has much better options.

Until you feel more comfortable and experienced with permanent MUC and its role, I suggest just picking up something like Kadaj's list in the first post of the thread and playing it. I wouldn't try to adjust it until I had a lot of practice.




peace,
4eak

[Jason]

Crytic Command - as a counter its so-so. As a draw its so so, as for its versatility... I don't know I don't see mono blue control as the type that likes to be cute and tricky.


Yeah. Cryptic Command is versatile and I find it lackluster most of the time. The card, however, does find ways to shine. The ability to either counter or bounce or fog for one turn is too powerful for me to take out altogether. I do find myself using it as a bounce+draw a lot for those enchantments that hit play and shouldn't have. Running more than 2 is iffy at best. I run 1 and that has been good for me. That way I do have an out against Humility, but I'm also not seeing a bunch of 4-costing counterspells all the time. If you choose not to run Command, I do suggest having some sort of bounce spell in the main deck in case some dumb enchantment does sneak its way into play...

[4eak]

I do suggest having some sort of bounce spell in the main deck in case some dumb enchantment does sneak its way into play...

I think Powder Keg handles most of these cases.

While I don't recommend bounce in permanent-MUC, for Draw/Go I know that Echoing Truth is a much stronger card than CCommand.


peace,
4eak

[Carabas]

Powder Keg only hits Artifacts and Creatures.
The four bounce effects I've seen control use are Echoing Truth, Wipe Away, Capsize, and Rushing River. Are there any others that would be considered in permanent-based MUC, and of all the choices, which are best?

[4eak]

@ Carabas


Powder Keg only hits Artifacts and Creatures.

Aye.

The list in question didn't play Keg in the main, which is why it relied so heavily upon CCommand to deal with junk. I was saying that in most cases if a permanent comes into play that is problematic, I'd usually Powder Keg to deal with it instead of a bounce spell. Obviously, if we are only talking about enchantments, then Powder Keg is useless (which is why I said 'most of these cases', hopefully pointing to permanents and not just enchantments).

Still, a singleton bounce may or may not be worth it in the main of permanent lists. I think B2B does more to decks with problematic enchantments than a bounce spell (especially if you are relying up eventually drawing a singleton bounce spell).

In any case, I recommend Echoing Truth, then Capsize, and then Wipe Away if you are playing bounce.



peace,
4eak

[Doks]

And what about Repeal?
People nearly always forget about it. But it's too strong - if you want to run bounce in any way - in a format whose CC is mostly ranged from 1-2.
It buys time, does the same job like other bounce (admitted, no good against multiple Tokens like Truth, but then bounces Morphs / Moxes etc. for only U) but not creating any carddisadvantage.

[4eak]

@ Doks


And what about Repeal?

Repeal isn't good in MUC for a couple reasons:

1.) It is mana inefficient. All too often you will be bouncing things with CC's higher than 1-2.



Assuming a cantrip effect costs U, X is the cost of our bounce effect. The point at which X is greater than the cost for a standard bounce spell with a similar effect (Boomerang, although it hits land) is the point that this card becomes mana inefficient for its effect.

2U or below makes it a worthy card. Anything you wish to bounce with CC above 2 is the point at which Repeal is actually not as mana efficient. The closer X is to zero, the more efficient the card becomes...The moxen in vintage demonstrate the efficiency of this card by breaking that fundamental 1 mana for 1 card ratio, allowing you essentially draw for free and increase your storm by 2. Clearly, Repeal is not nearly as relevant in this sense. Legacy MUC won't be bouncing moxen, sometimes it will need to bounce much larger things. The mana inefficiency of this spell is problematic to its inclusion in MUC.

2.) Repeal doesn't generate the raw mana and tempo of other bounce spells.


Bounce (in MUC) exists to Time Walk, or more specifically, to buy tempo. Buying tempo could be as simple as forcing them to recast a spell, and as powerful as the wiping away EtW tokens with Echo. Obviously, it isn't strictly removal.

Other bounce with a single cast cost have the benefit of predictable mana cost and gaining mana-based tempo. A 5cc permanent in play is wiped out by a 2cc bounce. My 2 mana bounce bought me a turn and 5 of my opponent's mana. If repeal was trying to hit that 5cc, I would have spent equivalent mana (6cc for bounce+draw), simply buying me a turn.

Bounce, like the actual card Time Walk, is really only at its best when you are casting other spells and doing other things with the tempo you've bought. Because of repeal's possibly prohibitive costs, it actually may prevent you from gaining any further tempo than just a turn. It isn't like you bounced a card and dropped a shackles with the extra mana you have...you usually tapped out to play that repeal, and thus you didn't gain mana-based tempo.

Now, if one would argue that repeal would never target something above 2cc, then it might be worth it. Additionally, because of the U cost (for the cantrip effect), it does come online a turn later than the average spell for each turn; this is assuming each player is maximally abusing the standard mana curve each turn (1, 2, 3, and so on). Meanwhile, other bounce spells are online and ready to gain tempo and at any point in the game.

I would argue that Repeal is similar to Spell Blast. The spell is permanently "dazed" against opponents tapping out to play spells in the early game. Bounce is most useful in the early game, not the late. Repeal isn't a good enough early game bounce spell, and that matters.

Echo is much closer to time walk, it deals with tokens (which matters), and allows you to play other spells on the same turn (so, you can Echo+FoF or whatever). Although Repeal draws a card, it lacks where it counts for bounce spells in MUC. I think even CCommand is stronger than Repeal.




peace,
4eak

[mackaber]

Lol. Repeal is an awesome control spell, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. It's never dead since at the very least it will maintain card parity. Usually it equates to bouncing something and paying U to draw a card. Since oftentimes cheap spells will slip under your wall of counter it's rarely gonna cost more than 2 or 3. Compared to Capsize or god forbid rushing river which are suposedly there to create tempo (When bouncing spells that cost 4 or mana? Sacing lands in MUC? Come on you got to be kidding...).
While Capsize at least has the plus side of being a powerful lategame tool it's rarely gonna create tempo. Another delicous and funky bounce spell which maintains card parity and functions as the ultimate swiss army Knife is Cryptic Command. Altough people around here say it's too clunky... maybe they should test it to taste a bit of it's awesomeness.
On a side note both repeal and Cryptic command are staples in extended, the format which is most like legacy.

[4eak]

@ mackaber

Repeal isn't a terrible spell; in the overall scheme of cards and formats (as you pointed out), it is a great spell. It just isn't very good in Legacy MUC, especially compared to the alternatives.

Play it enough, and you'll see that X-cost bite you in the ass too many times.

When I'm bouncing, the card draw isn't what I need MUC, I just need the raw tempo for 1U. I usually have a real answer in hand, I just need time to play and use it.

Capsize can generate tempo (that is what bounce does). It may not be as good at it if you can't pay the buyback cost, but it does have mid and late game staying power. I think the card is serious tempo against decks the same quantity of raw threats to play in the late game. If you've tested the card, you will find times where you'll just repeatedly capsize for a few turns until you've trounced your opponent in card advantage. I'd still run it before I'd run Repeal.



peace,
4eak

[Doks]

It is mana inefficient. All too often you will be bouncing things with CC's higher than 1-2.



Although Repeal draws a card, it lacks where it counts for bounce spells in MUC.

That's maybe your experience, but - as mackaber said - early things that slip through your permission usually don't cost more than a mere 2 mana.
You really like to Echoing Truth a Tarmogoyf for CC 2 more than Repealing it for 3 and drawing a card? Repeal keeps it's strength just like Spell Snare does compared to Force Spike.
And what the heck is bad when you're repealing a Humility for 5 with plenty of land out? If they really try to counter it more than once - cool, play another one and then ride to win with your killcondition you now resolve because they don't have the counter anymore?
Repeal saved my ass many times, not only in MUC, but control in general. WUBS or the former aggressive U/R version of Landstill gained much use out of it.
In addition, CC3 might bounce a CB better than CC2.
And once again, I can't tell you how often players run into Repeal like mad with their Chrome Moxes / 1st turn red Akroma morphs / Chalices @ 2 etc. being heavily disrupted (sometimes even gamebreaking) by my single U from a lonely Island repealing their whole result of a explosive 1st turn that draws me a card as an extra.

[elof]

Hey all!

First of all, I'm new to the forum and I'm from Sweden so my english may be a bit off from time to time, so I beg you pardon for that and will try to improve it.


I have followed this thread for quite a long while back and I have a question that I think could be worth considering and that is Blood Moon instead of Back to Basics. I will try to give you an idéa of what I have thought about.

Playing Blood Moon instead of Back to Basics has some impacts on your deck and I have tried to list what I have come up with:

* The first and obvious one is that you have to splash red. While this may not be a bad thing, it does require a sight adjustment of the mana base. If we say that a normal MUC-list have 23 Isands, I would suggest that a Moono-Blue Control would have something like this:
14 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island

The number of Volcanic Islands is depending on if you play any other red spells maindeck/sideboard and I think it could be as low as 2 copies, 1 would probebly be to risky.

* Splashing a color often means playing with fetch and alot of you guys already do this. The effect on playing fetches means that we now safely can play Brainstorm again but it does also me that we open up for Stifle and Wasteland. If Wasteland is a real probem then I would suggest going for Islands if we fetch early game and save fetches for the moon in as much extent as we can.

* A notice is the fact that while Back to Basics locks down your opponents lands and thus make spells like Force Spike/Mana Leak more viable it does not stop an opponent completly from playing spells. Blood Moon can often do this however, especially an opponent with an aggressive mana base, like Team America that plays "all mountains" when Moon is in play. Team America could recover from an Back to Basics simple by playing to new lands and a Tombstalker/Tarmogoyf, but can't play any other spells than Force of Will if Blood Moon hits the board. This does however make all your fetches into Mountains and thus lowering your amout of Islands in your deck. But with a high count like 14-15 Island this shouldn't really be a problem, should it?

* Another thing about Blood Moon vs Back to Basics is that extra copies of BtB can be pitched to Force of Will while additiona copies of Blood Moon is probebly dead unless you expect it to be destoryed/bounced.

* Splashing red allows the maindeck/sideboard to have some additional answers, for example Red Elemental Blast, Fire // Ice, Pyroclasm/Firespout, Shattering Pulse/Spree and many more. I have thought about playing maindeck Fire // Ice since it gets rid of alot of small creatures and is never completly dead since it cantrips. Ice can also act as a Time Walk against a Phyrexian Dreadnought, Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker. The only downside too this is that we have to fetch early Volcanics (if we want to play the Fire side) and that is painful against an opponent playing Wasteland.

* Blood Moon doesn't do anything to a deck already being red, like Goblins and Imperial Painter, however it does shut down Rishadan Port, Ancient Tomb, splashes (for example RB Goblins) and Mishra's Factory/Mutavault. I also think that Blood Moon is better here than Back to Basics is but I might be wrong.

* Blood Moon could also be replaced with Magus of the Moon. A few notes should though be made when we compare Magus with Blood Moon:
1: Magus is a creature and therefore much easier to remove than Blood Moon.
2: Magus, being a creature, is a wincon and therefor a good clock against any deck trying to find answers to Magus.
3: Magus is not completly dead against an aggro deck because you can play him as a chump blocker before you get Disk/Keg/Shackels online.
4: Magus is not dead in multipels in the same way that Blood Moon is, for obvious reasons.

* A downside is that if an opponent plays Blue Elemental Blast in sideboard, then they have a good answer to Blood Moon. Sadly, BeB is played quite often.



Most of you guys have probebly already consided this before but I thought that it might be worth to re-adress considering that red can efficiently deal with artifacts (such as Phyrexian Dreadnought), blue spells thanks to blasts and swarms of creatures (With Pyroclasm/Firespout) more effeciently than blue can and the colours realy complement each other.


Oh, by the way, if I have done something wrong, please let me know so that I can better myself!

Best regards
elof

[Shimster]

IMO, there is a major difference between Back to Basics and Blood Moon:

Back to Basics allows you to manascrew your opponent, while Blood Moon is only capable of colourscrew him. As most decks run a card to deal with Blood Moon, you've to be able to abuse tempo gained by playing it. B2B on the other hand is control, as it denies your opponent to play spells.

This isn't the deck that's capable of abusing tempo in any way. Therefore I don't like Blood Moon in MUC.

[4eak]

@ Doks


You really like to Echoing Truth a Tarmogoyf for CC 2 more than Repealing it for 3 and drawing a card?

Not just for Goyf, but many cards. Ever had to bounce Tombstalker? Ever had to bounce Goyf with two lands in play, or three if you had to play around Daze?

Repeal isn't predictable enough. While there are times where it is the best bounce card, there are many more situations where I would have just preferred to play Echoing Truth.

Echoing Truth is generally just cheaper. I feel comfortable with my card advantage engines, I just need to live long enough to use them.


And what the heck is bad when you're repealing a Humility for 5 with plenty of land out? If they really try to counter it more than once - cool, play another one and then ride to win with your killcondition you now resolve because they don't have the counter anymore?

Most MUC builds are lucky to even have 2 bounce in the deck. If it gets countered, then you may or may not have another chance to bounce again.

Hitting Humility for 2 mana instead of 5 means I'm not tapping out and I can use other cards more effectively.


Repeal saved my ass many times...I can't tell you how often players run into Repeal like mad with their Chrome Moxes / 1st turn red Akroma morphs / Chalices @ 2 etc.

Lots of cards can save your ass; I'd say the same about Echo as well. And, there are definitely unique situations where only Repeal could save the day. This doesn't make the card more suitable than Echoing Truth.

There will still be many games where hitting tokens and multiples is best answered by Echoing Truth. Other situations where Echo is better than Repeal would be in defensive bounces, such as saving your own Shackles or bouncing your own Disk after you put its ability on the stack.

The predictable and guaranteed cheapness of Echoing Truth, alongside its ability to hit multiples, is honestly hard to match by other bounce spells. Repeal is a great card, but it isn't as good as Echoing Truth in MUC.





peace,
4eak

[Doks]

Ever had to bounce Tombstalker? Ever had to bounce Goyf with two lands in play, or three if you had to play around Daze?


By the time Tombstalker hits play you should have other solutions ready. Counter it or steal it with Shackles.
Are you going to bounce Goyf in the early game when he is not that scary - read: not big enough - for the cost of 1 card and 1U?
I guess you probably wait, take 2-3 next turn and play an EOT Impulse instead, don't you?

I've played ET, too, and I admit it has some advantages over Repeal, especially being faster when the permanent is CC2+.
But I never felt it to be the allround solution Repeal is - the longer the game, the better Repeal compared to ET in general, imho.
But again, that's my own experience and if your build proves to be stronger with ET in your experience - it's fine.

[Illissius]

I was tinkering with Mono Blue Control With White Splash (so I guess that's Mostly Blue Control), and I came up with this:

4 Brainstorm
4 Fact or Fiction
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vedalken Shackles
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Decree of Justice
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
10 Island
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island / Swamp
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
SB: 4 Back to Basics
SB: 4 Counterbalance
SB: 4 Sower of Temptation
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus

Maybe the third Top needs to become a fourth non-Decree win condition (probably CtS), but Top is so awesome. So, I dunno. With Tops, Shackles, and EEs all in the deck -- and especially with Fact or Fiction -- Academy Ruins seemed worth giving a slot to, even though I dislike its nonbasic nonIslandiness. I'm also wondering if I could go down to only a Tundra and a Plains as white sources, but probably not. I think that's about it as far as my thoughts(-needing-explicit-mentioning). Yours?

[4eak]

@ Illissius

I'm actually kinda' surprised you don't have B2B in the main. The best reason to splash for white is because its board control doesn't conflict with B2B.

The only time I've only chosen not to play B2B in the main is because I play Disk in a Draw/Go deck. Although, perhaps you also find B2B to be a metagame card.


3 Sensei's Divining Top

Do you find this card necessary? You already have Brainstorm and FoF.

Also, since you don't have B2B in the main, and you play this card, have you tested Scrying Sheets? You wouldn't need to play as many fetches or duals if you didn't want to either.


Decree of Justice

You've gotta try a single Eternal Dragon. That card is a pimp, and it does things DoJ can't (and vice versa).



peace,
4eak

[Doks]

DoJ is awesome, but 2 are enough - you don't want them early game.
Sure, now you can say "I go and cycle them away when it is too clunky in a situation" - but why not play a card that closes that gap and win with a bigger DoJ later?
In addition, cycling is an invitation for you opponent G2 to extirpate your main - if not single - wincondition.

I am not convinced of 3 Top either - you really get no use except of CQ, and that's low compared to options other decks have.
Play Sheets like 4eak says or try TfK - a solid Draw Engine with 9+ Artifacts. In addition, you run Ruins so discarding them is not that bad.
Maybe something like

4 Brainstorm
4 FoF
2 Top
2 TfK

[rsaunder]

Has anyone given any thought to painter's servant+grindstone as a MB kill? It's a little space-intensive but it wraps up games fast and you can always side it out for other kills and hate game 2/3 and have you opponent SB in useless cards.

[Jak]

Has anyone given any thought to painter's servant+grindstone as a MB kill? It's a little space-intensive but it wraps up games fast and you can always side it out for other kills and hate game 2/3 and have you opponent SB in useless cards.

I suggested it, but it wouldn't be the same as in Quinn since there is no Enlightened Tutor. Maybe in the white splash? Enlightened Tutor with targets like Shackles, Disk, O Ring, and B2B?

[Jak]

So the white splash looks awesome and this is a list I might try but I obviously need to cut 3 cards. Will try to test and slim it down.

4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
10 Island
1 Plains
2 Academy Ruins
4 Chrome Mox

2 Decree of Justice
1 Mindslaver

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
1 Spell Burst

4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Fact or Fiction

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vedalken Shackles
3 Engineered Explosives

SB
Mages, Blasts, Crypts, Disenchants, etc...

Edit- Newer list since I played a few games and ended up liking this configuration better. Moxes add for some early game action, which, IMO, this deck needs. It also ups the artifcat count making Thirst a lot better. Mindslaver is a fun alternate win condition but not tested at all. Still not sure on the counter configuration. Spell Snare is good in the early game but really meta dependent so it could end up being Force Spike or another hard counter (not sure what, maybe Absorb?). I like the one Spell Burst to draw it late and just always have a counterspell. 4 Shackles because they are amazing at destroying decks with creatures once active. 4 Swords to handle 1st turn Lackey or anything giving me trouble. 3 Explosives (could be 4) to handle basically anything and it recurs nicely.

SB needs stuff for combo, like a clock. Mage doubles as disruption and some nice beats. Blasts for additional help against Goblins and Sligh. Crypts for all around GY hate. Disenchants (doesn't actually have to be Disenchant) to handle stuff that EE or Swords can't take care of.

So a lot of rambling but I really like the looks of the list. Sorry for not having anything worthwhile to post, like testing results, but I'll be sure to get to those since I am kind of snowed in for a while. Thoughts? Comments?

[klaus]

Here's the MBC list (well actually UwControl) I'm currently testing and happy with:

Disruption:
2 Back to Basics
1 Engineered Explosives------won't add #2 w/o another off color land
1 Cryptic Command---------- love it
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare--------------meta call
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God------------odd choice but works fine.

Draw/Search:
1 Enlightened Tutor--------------happy with it sofar
3 Fact or Fiction ---------------could/should be 4?
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder-----------------really happy with it
1 Jace Beleren

Kill:
2 Decree of Justice
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant------cool.
1-2 Vedalken Shackles
0-1 Eternal Dragon

Land:
1 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Plains
12 Island
---------------add Academy Ruins (?)
SB:
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Disenchant
3 Propaganda
3 Meddling Mage
1 Aura of Silence
1 Pithing Needle
---
Let me know what you think!

[rsaunder]

MUC: Mostly U Control.

I don't know if I would run moxen in a deck like this. It seems like the card disadvantage would really hurt early game when you're trying to force+foil everything away anyhow.

@Klaus: How does the deck do hitting WW for Wrath? The white land count looks low for a card like that.

[deadlock]

In my opinion the development of MUC should be focused on the archtypes strength, which lies in:
- immune to nonebasichate / stifle
- mostly immune against CB
- great draw engine
- B2B

I know that nobody likes thrown out lists, but just togive you an idea what i am talking about:

Creatures
1 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Fact or Fiction
1 Call the Skybreaker
3 Back to Basics
4 Vedalken Shackles
4 Powder Keg
3 Chrome Mox

1 Academy Ruins
22 Island

Pretty straight forward, Thirst might be replaced by another secondary draw spell together with the Moxens, which are there to act as a pitch card.

CtS could be replaced by another Morphling, just following the basic rule here to have 3 win conditions.

[4eak]

@ deadlock

While I'm not opposed to artifact builds of MUC, specifically using Chalice, please notice that this build is not the norm, nor is it anymore "focused on the archtypes strengths" than most any other list.

Using your list:



- immune to nonebasichate / stifle
- mostly immune against CB
- great draw engine
- B2B

-No MUC list achieves immunity to stifle, although some do achieve immunity to non-basic hate. The question is really, "How immune do you need to be?" There are some who think the risk of 4-6 fetches is quite minimal compared to the gains of Brainstorm (and/or EE instead of Keg). Notice for example that your list has many Stiflable cards, including Chrome Mox.

-Focusing on near-immunity to CB comes at the risk of not having early answers. I'd prefer to answer CB with a card like Spellsnare than try to become immune to it. Your list doesn't appear much more immune than others.

-Pretty much everybody plays a board sweeper/shackles/FoF. Beyond the other 4-6 cards which we all are concerned with (pretty much everyone plays atleast 8 draw effects minimum), I don't think there is much more to focus on here. Our draw is quite strong.

-You can only play 4 B2B, and there is no way to focus more on this card without CQ effects (which is generally in opposition to a strong draw engine). I don't see how your list focuses heavier on the effect than others. You only run 3.


I look at the problem quite differently; I don't think the strengths can be made that much stronger really. I look at it and say, what are the deck weaknesses? Most would agree it is MUC's early game that needs the most work. This is probably why you see a good deal of development of MUC focused on improving the early game (clearly, some have better ideas than others).




peace,
4eak

[mackaber]

I think the problem isn't necesarily improving the early game as much as actually improving the early game without sacrificing too much lategame power. Force spike is a card that comes with this problem built in.
Personally I think the best way to achieve this objective is by keeping the average CC of spells as low as possible while still only utilizing those spells that will also have an impact in the lategame, thus my personal preference for janky spells such as Think Twice.

[Tao]

Relic of Progenitus:
Sry to bring that up again but I do think I am right about Relic. Am I the only one who has Relic of Progenitus in the main? I am more than just satisfied with it. It cantrips, makes Thirst for Knowledge playable and handles so many common problems in the Meta:

- Stronghold/ A.Ruins Recursion; Loam/Dragon/Crucible abuse
- slows down Tarmogoyf!!! and Nimble Mongoose massively
- delays Tombstalker by many turns
- makes G1 against Ichorid winnable
- can handle the Survival engine unless tempo advantage allows them to play around it
- Ill Gotten Gains / Cabal Ritual / Flash of Insight make it also solid in the combo matchup


Finisher discussion:
I still think CtS is okay but since I play Relic I can't run CtS anymore. But that's no real problem. I've never had any problems with Morphling. In many games it is by far the best option. Right now I have just 3 Morphling in the main as kill plus some Jace in the SB for Control Mirror and not once wished it was something else so far.


Chalice:
I've tested with Chalice and I was never really impressed. You can't set in on much else than 1 and that does not hurt the majority of opponents as much it should to make it playable. Setting it on 2 will usually hurt yourself as much as the opponent because Counterspell is not just some spell but a key card.
Furthermore I hated to play with Moxen and Chalice against Deed or Explosives. Deed is already annoying enough when it does not kill your Mana and disruption.

A few members said that they like my list so here is my updated version. I removed the Force Spikes because I needed more draw.

// Lands
24 [P2] Island (3)

// Creatures
3 [US] Morphling

// Spells
4 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [R] Nevinyrral's Disk

3 [GP] Repeal
3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Counterspell
3 [DIS] Spell Snare

4 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
4 [IN] Fact or Fiction

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 2 [LRW] Jace Beleren
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [SC] Stifle

[deadlock]

I really like your list, you made Thirst usable with an improved early game in Spell Snare and Repeal.

I am not sure though if it is the right call to move B2B to the side, this may be meta dependend, but what to do in an unkown meta?

For me the points to discuss concerning your list are:
-Keg vs Disk: I still prefer Keg, but without B2B main Disk might be stronger?
-Repeal vs B2B: As mentioned above, Repeal is a good choice, could be Echoing Truth too.


Sideboard looks good too, but please consider Echoing Truth and Pithing Needle as choices.

[Tao]

The base of the deck is still IBA's list from a trillion pages ago (threehundred posts in the MUC thread in one month ftw).

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=297007&postcount=550

Disk was a great improvement compared to Powder Keg which lacked a bit quality and Explosived which needed multiple colors.

Disk is also one of two reasons to not run B2B in the main. The other is that B2B is not what this approach to MUC wants to do in a lot of matchups.

Why Pithing Needle? Isn't it in G2 that they Grip it, then use their broken Vial/Survival/Deed/whatever once and you are still screwed?

I am still torn between Capsize, Echoing Truth and Repeal. Right now I can't say which is best.

[jjjoness']

This is what I've been testing a lot:

// Lands
25 [ALA] Island (2) - I really feel 25 lands is the way to go w/o Brainstorm

// Creatures
2 [US] Morphling
1 [VI] Rainbow Efreet
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren

// Spells
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles - never wanted the fourth
4 [US] Back to Basics - I'd never run less than the full playset, it wins so many matchups on its own
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Counterspell
4 [DIS] Spell Snare - not quite happy with this, but I really want 12 counters
4 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [UD] Powder Keg - has been working out quite good so far, although EE is way better
4 [TE] Propaganda - really helps in the aggro matchup

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [A] Blue Elemental Blast - for Zoo
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus - 2/2 split
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [GP] Repeal - really liked this, bouncing Dreadnoughts or Vials is the nuts
SB: 4 [OD] Divert - not sure wether I should run this or Disrupt

I really like this list, because you can play relatively "aggressive" by just throwing out "threats" like Propaganda, Back to Basics and Shackles. The cool thing about MUC is that there are so many ways to adapt it to your personal style and metagame like in almost no other deck.

[mans0011]

Relic of Progenitus:
Sry to bring that up again but I do think I am right about Relic. Am I the only one who has Relic of Progenitus in the main? I am more than just satisfied with it. It cantrips, makes Thirst for Knowledge playable and handles so many common problems in the Meta:

- Stronghold/ A.Ruins Recursion; Loam/Dragon/Crucible abuse
- slows down Tarmogoyf!!! and Nimble Mongoose massively
- delays Tombstalker by many turns
- makes G1 against Ichorid winnable
- can handle the Survival engine unless tempo advantage allows them to play around it
- Ill Gotten Gains / Cabal Ritual / Flash of Insight make it also solid in the combo matchup


Finisher discussion:
I still think CtS is okay but since I play Relic I can't run CtS anymore. But that's no real problem. I've never had any problems with Morphling. In many games it is by far the best option. Right now I have just 3 Morphling in the main as kill plus some Jace in the SB for Control Mirror and not once wished it was something else so far.


Chalice:
I've tested with Chalice and I was never really impressed. You can't set in on much else than 1 and that does not hurt the majority of opponents as much it should to make it playable. Setting it on 2 will usually hurt yourself as much as the opponent because Counterspell is not just some spell but a key card.
Furthermore I hated to play with Moxen and Chalice against Deed or Explosives. Deed is already annoying enough when it does not kill your Mana and disruption.

A few members said that they like my list so here is my updated version. I removed the Force Spikes because I needed more draw.

// Lands
24 [P2] Island (3)

// Creatures
3 [US] Morphling

// Spells
4 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [R] Nevinyrral's Disk

3 [GP] Repeal
3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Counterspell
3 [DIS] Spell Snare

4 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
4 [IN] Fact or Fiction

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 2 [LRW] Jace Beleren
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [SC] Stifle

With having Back to Basics in the sideboard, you really should consider using Academy Ruins. Recursive destruction is delicious. Not to mention it makes Thirst for Knowledge much less painful.

[idraleo]

With having Back to Basics in the sideboard, you really should consider using Academy Ruins. Recursive destruction is delicious. Not to mention it makes Thirst for Knowledge much less painful.


move B2B to sb = epic fail

If you' re leaving them from mainboard because you think they' ll be useless, try to change deck and go to Landstill instead.

[mans0011]

move B2B to sb = epic fail

If you' re leaving them from mainboard because you think they' ll be useless, try to change deck and go to Landstill instead.

I'm not suggesting that Back to Basics should be in the sideboard. The decklist that I quoted has it in the side. If that is the case, and since he runs lots of artifacts and thirst for knowledge, a copy of academy ruins is a good card to run.

[elof]

IMO, there is a major difference between Back to Basics and Blood Moon:

Back to Basics allows you to manascrew your opponent, while Blood Moon is only capable of colourscrew him. As most decks run a card to deal with Blood Moon, you've to be able to abuse tempo gained by playing it. B2B on the other hand is control, as it denies your opponent to play spells.

This isn't the deck that's capable of abusing tempo in any way. Therefore I don't like Blood Moon in MUC.


Hmm, I don't disagre with you but I would like to discuss it a bit further. Do really most deck run a card to deal with Blood Moon? I'm not counting SB because most cards that deal with Blood Moon deal with B2B, except BEB/REB.

I will consider some matchups:

Team America:
Blood Moon vs B2B:
Well, while both cards are good, the moon is definetly better because it completly shuts down there mana base. They usually don't play basics and even if they did, it wouldn't help much.

Answers:
Blood Moon: BEB, (Grip) (Grip is a not a real answer because the deck most float 2G in respons to Moon).
B2B: Grip.


Dreadstill:
Moon vs B2B:
The deck plays alot of basics with is good for them against both cards. The B2B lets each Mishra attack at least once while Blood Moon does let it tap for Sensei' Top every turn. The top effect is however significantly weak with Blood Moon in play because fetches are Mountains. The deck has no real use of extra mountains, the deck however, have use for fetches.

Answers:
Blood Moon: BEB, Echoing Truth, (Grip)
B2B: Echoing Truth, Grip, (EE (Only if 3 coloured))


Landstill:
M vs B:
Well, Moon shuts down all wincons except Decree of Justice/Planeswalkers. The deck doesn't use extra mountains for anything other than DoJ. B2B shuts down alot of the cards but with a Crucible of Worlds in play, the deck can waste it's own lands and replay them, slow but not game over.

Answers:
Depends alot on the build, I would say that they are similar but Moon is better against Grip and EE and B2B is better against BEB.

Stax:
It's even. Moon does keep Tomb from generating alot of mana but in the same way City of Traitors doesn't die. Tight race.

Answers:
Even?

Thres:
Can use extra mountains. If they have basiclands in play, it's the same for both cards except that B2B is better when opponent has Forest+Island and Moon is better when opponent has (Island).

Answers: Same as before, BEB vs Grip.

ANT/Combo in any form:
Moon is usually the better one since they don't have many basic lands and all their fetch are Mountains. It's even better against Solidarity altough you probebly shouldn't play it :P

Aggro:
Both cards are pretty bad I suppose, but if they play red, then B2B is better.

Other matchups?



I think that what it comes down to is, whould you rather play against BEB or Grip? But I might be wrong in my analysis?

If BEB was the problem, why not get in 4 Chalice in main?


Also, B2B mana screws and Blood Moon colourscrews, but ain't it better colourscrewing somebody than just buying time?

[jjjoness']

Aggro:
Both cards are pretty bad I suppose, but if they play red, then B2B is better.

That really depends on your opponents deck. I won a lot of games against Zoo because they were stuck on 1 or 2 basic lands and I had a propaganda in play. If you can survive some turns and play Propaganda + B2B then you will most likely win the game. It's weaker against decks with more burn, but it's often quite useful against aggro.

[Tao]

I recently tested Vendilion Clique in the SB and it was good. Against Combo it can take a key card and set up a clock without having to tap out. In the control mirror it does basically the same because your opponent will have no more or less StoPs in his deck.

_______

I don't think Blood Moon is better than B2B in this deck and I particularly don't see a reason to splash a color for a color hoser when we already have one in our colors. There may be situations in which Moon is better but there are also many situations in which B2B is way better. For example against Goblins with Port/Waste, against Chalice-Stompy and in all situations in which your opponent has a basic land of each color and the rest non-basics.


With having Back to Basics in the sideboard, you really should consider using Academy Ruins. Recursive destruction is delicious. Not to mention it makes Thirst for Knowledge much less painful.

The reasons against Academy Ruins are the same like the reasons against Scrying Sheets or any other nonbasic land. Being vulnerable to Wasteland. I don't know any other deck that hates losing land drops as much as MUC. Furthermore I play Relic of Progenitus main and it would be non-synergetic.



move B2B to sb = epic fail

If you' re leaving them from mainboard because you think they' ll be useless, try to change deck and go to Landstill instead.

Moving B2B to the SB was discussed a lot in this thread and I see no reason to repeat the old arguments. If you have new arguments for playing B2B main then you are welcome to participate in the discussion. But if unsubstantial one-liners are all you have to say then please say them somewhere else.

[Jason]

The reasons against Academy Ruins are the same like the reasons against Scrying Sheets or any other nonbasic land. Being vulnerable to Wasteland. I don't know any other deck that hates losing land drops as much as MUC. Furthermore I play Relic of Progenitus main and it would be non-synergetic.


I disagree with your reasons for not running Academy Ruins. Running 1x Academy Ruins is not a bad idea at all, even with Back to Basics in play. The card is awesome and even recurring a broken artifact even once can be game-breaking. The difference with this card versus Scrying Sheets is you need to use it over and over again. With Academy Ruins, you don't need to play it until you have to, so Wasteland has never been an issue. The fact it does not have synergy with Relic does not mean it is terrible. It does have synergy with Fact or Fiction and Nevinyrral's Disk / Powder Keg. The games where you are cracking Relic are the games where Academy Ruins will not be useful most of the time anyway. The games where you use Academy Ruins even once are going to be games where Relic is going to be meh. And in those games it can come as a huge advantage for you. I believe the two cards can work together, even if they are being played for different reasons.

[Berzerked]

So why doesn't anyone play Cunning Wish?

I think the versatility of the card more than makes up for the expensive cost (2U + x), and it lets you play specific answers in your board without having to dilute your main deck.

For example, my wishboard looks like:
BEB (Goblins, Moons, ect.)
Echoing Truth
Extirpate (Ichorid, Loam, other recursion engines)
Stifle (Combo, miscellaneous)
StP (any "Oh shit..." situations)

I mean, what more could you really want? Answers to every deck in the DtB section, and it's all basically main decked.

Then, because of the W and B in the board, I get to play 6 fetches which make Brainstorm actually usable, and 1 Plains + 1 Swamp which make EE actually usable (way better than Disk/Keg).

Am I off my rocker or what?

[Poron]

Anyway I don't really understand why this deck doesn't abuse of Cunning Wish. We need a late game removal? go for Capsize, we need a free counter? Go for Pact of Negation, we really need to cut out a fattie? get Pongify/Ovinize and so on. Snakeform is also great in that slot.

has Cunning wish already been discussed?

[Illissius]

So I can pay 8 mana to counter a spell, or 4 mana to destroy a creature and give my opponent a 3/3? Sign me up!

Three mana is a lot. And blue doesn't have very much worthwhile utility. The main reason you would want to play Wish, as far as I can tell, is so that you have access to bounce for random permanents, and to Extirpate so Loam doesn't rape you in game one, without having potentially dead/crappy cards maindeck. The better solution to this is to run noncrappy bounce (Repeal, Cryptic Command) and/or Relic of Progenitus maindeck, all of which suck less than Cunning Wish does.

[Shawon]

So why doesn't anyone play Cunning Wish?

I think the versatility of the card more than makes up for the expensive cost (2U + x), and it lets you play specific answers in your board without having to dilute your main deck.

I mean, what more could you really want? Answers to every deck in the DtB section, and it's all basically main decked.


has Cunning wish already been discussed?


The idea of adding Cunning Wish in MUC has been brought up nigh COUNTLESS times in this thread.

I think the general consensus is that it is not worth it in MUC because the toolbox versatility you gain is outweighed by Cunning Wish being slow. Also, I don't even think you're in desperate need of that toolbox versatility. But, mainly it's because Cunning Wish is way too slow.

I'm a naysayer of Cunning Wish, however, I actually understand why people bring up the card. What I don't understand is how people bringing up the card haven't tested the card enough to come up to their own conclusions. If you feel people should be playing Cunning Wish, then you should probably back your opinion with testing results. Everyone knows what Cunning Wish does and what it can do. It might be just me, but I think people don't use it because the gains of CUnning Wish aren't worth it. If you want to prove otherwise, then you'll need more than just saying "I think the versatility of the card more than makes up for the expensive cost (2U + x), and it lets you play specific answers in your board without having to dilute your main deck."

[Berzerked]

If you want to prove otherwise, then you'll need more than just saying "I think the versatility of the card more than makes up for the expensive cost (2U + x), and it lets you play specific answers in your board without having to dilute your main deck."

Wow, that's funny, I'm pretty sure my post included relevant explanations after that, which you conveniently left out just so you could act like a douche bag.

@Illissius: Obviously you can run cards that are better than Wish in certain scenarios in place of Wish, but then those cards are going to be dead in other situations. My decklist is already very tight (as I assume most are), so Wish is a way to make sure I have answers to a wider variety of situations, condensed into only a couple of slots. For sure Relic is good, as is Command, but I just don't have to space, and I feel 2x Wish is better than 2x of anything else, especially when I already run 14 counters and multiple board control elements. Because of this I'm looking more for versatility than redundancy, for the "oh shit" moments.

[Illissius]

Well that's something you didn't mention in your last post. If you only have two slots to deal with everything, then yes, you'd be hard pressed to find another way to handle all of it besides Wish. However, the wisdom of leaving only two slots in the first place seems questionable. Furthermore, your last post also suggests you're running Explosives, which means you've already got permanents handled, so if all you still need is a way to deal with the graveyard, Relic looks like it fits the bill. If you need graveyard hate it's graveyard hate, if you don't it turns into another general purpose business spell. Cantrips are rarely dead. Am I missing something?

[Berzerked]

Hmm...I'm going to try -1 B2B (I was running 4) and -2 Wish for the +3 Relics, and test it specifically in matches where I was using Wish->Extirpate to see if there's a huge advantage, as I must admit, the Extirpate was really more for the days of Breakfast (when I was playing this deck).

I'm guessing you play it main too. Does that prompt you to run TfK? I'd be weary to drop FoF for that just because it's such an extreme bomb, but if you did then let me know why.

Also, sorry if this has been brought up, but has anyone tested out Oona and Jace in the same deck, specifically for the decking win?

[Illissius]

I don't have it main, but if I were worried about Loam decks, Survival, and such, I likely would.

I don't really like Thirst for Knowledge, because while it's technically a two for one (three for two), to achieve this it requires you to discard something specific - an artifact - which is very often a card you'd like to keep. So it only gives you card quantity at the expense of quality. It also makes me want to use Chrome Mox, and that never ends well.

[deadlock]

Small tournament report is going to follow:
Note that i didnt found the missing B2B in time, so i played this suboptimal list:

1 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet
1 Call the Skybreaker

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
3 Repeal

3 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Fact or Fiction

1 Back to Basics
4 Vedalken Shackles
4 Powder Keg
3 Relic of Progenitus

1 Academy Ruins
23 Island

SB:
3 BEB
3 Stifle
2 Echoing Truth
2 Jace
2 Sower
2 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus

6 Rounds no Top8:

1st round: Armageddon Stax:
Game one i kept a bad hand with 1 Island and 1 Relic on the draw, my logic was that i will see a land in the top three cards of my library. He plays a first turn Chalice and i conceded after a couple of missed landrops and an Armageddon.
Game two i beat him with huge card advantage i think, i brought in Echoing Truth and Jace with gave me the edge.
Game three was weired, i kept drawing land for around ten turns and he kept casting Smokestacks, but didnt have the Crucible so he couldnt fully exploit it. Time got short i casted a Morphling, but forgot about his Suppression Field and it got stolen by Oblivion Ring - stupid mistake which leads to a draw. Judge was watching so i got a warning for this too.

0-0-1

2nd round: UGw Threshold:
Dont remember much here, fact was that i had far too many relevant cards against him. Even with only one B2B, which i tried to cast and got countered by his Counterbalance, which flipped a his only cmc 3 card over -.-
I brought in Needle and the last Relic i think.

1-0-1

3rd round: (suboptimal) UW Landstill:
This nice guy bought all the cards, but was missing three Force of Will's and so the games went like this: He resolved 1 Standstill in the whole round and i kept drawing cards of FoF and Thirst. I used Cts as finisher in the last game, but cant say that it was better than Morphling, i casted him out of the graveyard via Retrace though.

2-0-1

4rd round: (suboptimal) TA:
Jerky dude who was sitting next to me last game and kept insisting that i was playing the lamest deck ever and that i cant be good because the manabase is so cheap. It goes on with him calling the judge, because my sleeves werent the same, i had no clue how to see the difference, but he was right - i mixed to packs together. So another warning and i had to change the sleeves after the match.
Anyway the first game was over fast, a Thoughtseize followed by two Sinkhole's and a Tombstalker - not much i could have done about it.

Game two i bring in Sowers, Echoing Truth's and maybe the last Relic.
I had 4 lands on my starthand so i allowed him to Sinkhole on of my lands, the other one gets countered by my Spell Snare. Relic was annoying him here too, but he manages to land a Tombstalker, which got stolen by Sower.
He couldnt answer the Sower and i was staring down on a hand with like 2 FoW and other business.
Game three went in a very similiar way, he tried to Ghastly Demise my Sower after a Relic cleaned our graveyards, by wasting one of his own lands. How bad is this, were is Snuff Out?
He was annoyed, but i couldnt help myself and was quite happy with the result.

3-0-1

5th round: UW Painter
Game one i kept another bad hand with like 3 draw spells and 3 lands knowing that he was playing Painter.
So he went first turn Grindstone, second turn Painter, third turn win.
So i brought in Needles, Echoing Truths, Jace and Stifle cutting Shackles and Relics i think.
This one was good, but went very long. At one point i countered an Intuition fearing some nasty Academy Ruins recursion, which was stupid because he had no Loam to recur it. He scooped somewhere in the late game to save us time for game three.
Another drawn out game, were he put much thought in his moves. In the end after the announcement of the extra turns it was clear that he couldnt win, but i couldnt either, considering the time frame.

3-0-2

6th round: Imperial Painter
So the rain of red blasts was going to commence, luckily this guy was quite nice, but made clear that i am a bye... we will see.
Game one he casted a Magus of the Moon, which i didnt counter fearing the Painter combo. We traded counter and Magus was slowly eating my life away. I was holding two FoW's and was at 5 life, where he tried to Bolt me, i FoW and he REBs. I play the second FoW and continued to lose the game. I felt bad for FoWing a Bolt and remined myself to counter this first turn Magus next time.
I brought in BEB, ET, Needle and cut Shackles + Relics.
I dont remeber much, but somehow i managed to advance to the late game, were i crushed him with superior draw and countermagic, this shouldnt sound like it was easy, he played with Jaya, which could become quite annoying.
Game three was very tense, after a drawn out attrition war i landed an Efreet, which he blasts - i respond with FoF??? - and couldnt phase it afterwards, omg. So the game went on were it should had ended, in the end i manage to win with a CtS in the last extra turns - he couldnt believe it!

Final result (no top8):
4-0-2

I was suprissed to face two Painter decks (the UW finished 1st) and there werent any Goblins at the whole tournament (how lucky).

Both draws werent unwninable and i made quite some mistakes, but was quite annoyed by the fact that this deck cant win fast.
I may add some notes later on, but this was already more work to type down than i expected.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

There are still some slots in this deck I'm not sure about.

On another note, you'll laugh, but I've been having a lot of success testing 26 lands with 2 CtS and 2 Oona's Grace. It means never being land screwed and seldom being truly land flooded. And both cards have massive synergy with Fact or Fiction. I'm not currently testing any draw beyond that, although I'm trying to test out some alternate kill conditions that also serve a utilitarian function, mainly Venser.

[Nihil Credo]

Vendilion Clique has been brought up a couple of times in this thread. Now, I'm biased since I have an unhealthy love of this card especially in control decks, but it's worth noting that it's probably the best tool currently available to MUC against eternally annoying Grip and Life from the Loam.

[Doks]

What has happened to Propaganda / Disk / B2B main or not - discussions now?
The last pages we're talking about bounce, flexible slots, finishers and new utility choices but miss to clarify in what kind of build we want to try and use them and what's the general opinion about MUC's staples.
I don't mean that in an offending way, but everyone is throwing in a new tech here and is doing a little bit different there with "good results".
So imho I think it's more than necessary to come up with a little core of MUC with what we can compare new suggestions and the like unless the poster adds his / her specific list or at least says in what kind of MUC he wants to run the card (stack / perm / Sower / Disk etc.).


I just post a core from top off my head because I got to go:

22-26 Lands

3 Finishers (may be replaced by some utility creatures when you use additional board control slots up for them)
10-16 countermagic
8-14 carddraw / quality
6-12 board control / other disruption (Shackles, bounce, B2B, Keg, EE, Disk ...)

With common card choices:

24 Lands (with Fetchlands if you run BS / EE, some utility Lands like Mishra / Ruins if you don't run B2B)

3 Morphling / Call the Skybreaker / Efreet / whatever

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare / Force Spike / Mana Leak

4 Impulse / Brainstorm / Think Twice / Accumulated Knowledge
4 Fact or Fiction
2 Thirst for Knowledge / Meditate / Intuition / SDT

3 Back to Basics
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Engineered Explosives / Keg / Disk
2 Repeal / Cryptic Command / Echoing Truth


Any additions?

[Shawon]

On another note, you'll laugh, but I've been having a lot of success testing 26 lands with 2 CtS and 2 Oona's Grace. It means never being land screwed and seldom being truly land flooded. And both cards have massive synergy with Fact or Fiction. I'm not currently testing any draw beyond that, although I'm trying to test out some alternate kill conditions that also serve a utilitarian function, mainly Venser.

Oona's Grace doesn't seem like a good card to run with CtS, no? You might need the lands you pitch for Grace for CtS. Furthermore, no matter what, Oona's Grace is always going to be a 1-for-1. It seems there are better alternatives than Oona's Grace (Think Twice, Scrying Sheets, AK, etc.).

[mackaber]

Yeah I'd really like to see a developement towards a set list but it seems like all people can agree on up until now is:

23+ lands

4 Force
4 Counter
3 Spell Snare

2+ Fact or Fiction
2+ Vedalken Shakels

3 Finishers usually 2 morphlings plus x

B2B MD or SB

These are really the only cards you can call the core since they are present in more than 90 per cent of all lists posted here but other than that there seems to be a lot of fluctuation. My main problem has been that I'm not really satisfied wit any of the card draw options. Maybe we could try and discuss the merits of the different card draw suits and we might possibly come to a consensus as to which is best suited?

FoF: The most powerful Card draw available albeit very slow and sometimes unreliable. Sometimes GG. Especially strong on an empty board, poorest when under pressure since opponents can afford to split 4:1. Shouldn't be run with less than 24 lands.

Brainstorm: No real CA but really good if your running fetches.

Impulse: Imho very meeh. No CA for the cost of 2 mana.

Thirst for Knowledge: Requires 10+ artifacts and even then oftentimes only card parity. I think you only want to run this with relic MD which isn't that bad a choice.

Ancestral Visions: +2 Cards for 1 mana is nothing short of awesome. Waiting 4 turns is kind of lame. Bad synergie with force spike, Spell snare. Turns on opposing stifles. If you run 4 of these you can run less FoFs which alows you to play more other expensive spells. Have not really tested it myself but will have to do so in the future.

Think Twice: Nice since it provides real CA but at a steep cost. Awesome synergie with FoF. I like it but it lacks a bit of punch.

Jace: Really powerful versus control where he can win games single handedly. Disadvantage is that he needs to be layed down mainphase. Against aggro he's usually a cantrippin healing salve. Can theoretically function as a Kill condition. Awesome synergie with disk.

Meditate: Honestly I think this is the most horirble option brought up. It seems so win more and I've been having the problem that I want Card draw that is also good in Aggro MU cause all card draw spells are awesome versus control.

Accumulated Knowledge: In combination with FoF or on it's own I really prefer think twice. With Intuition it's real good. Poor synergie with Relic.

[Arsenal]

I'm currently running 4 AV, 4 FoF, and 2 Jace as my 10 card draw suite. I do play in a slower meta, so waiting 4 turns for AV or plopping down a Jace (and seeing him not die) hasn't been too much of an issue.

[mackaber]

I'm currently running 4 AV, 4 FoF, and 2 Jace as my 10 card draw suite. I do play in a slower meta, so waiting 4 turns for AV or plopping down a Jace (and seeing him not die) hasn't been too much of an issue.

Out of curiosity how many lands are you running? That does sound like the most powerful card draw suite possible in terms of raw drawing power.

[Arsenal]

I run 24 Islands. I was resistant to AV at first, but since I'm playing permanent-based MUC, it's been great. Waiting 4 turns, with lots of pieces to slow down the opponent (B2B, Shackles, Propaganda, Keg), isn't as bad as I initially thought it would be. FoF is FoF, so I don't feel I need to ever justify it's slot. Jace, in my meta, has been pretty good. There have been times when I draw it and am :frown:, but overall, I like him. I think that's the most malleable slot in my deck right now. He could easily be anything else, but for now, Jace is okay.

[Soulles]

Has anyone ever considerd Flow of Ideas? One or 2 ?

I am really thinking of trying it out. Of cource it would be in addition of the 4 fact or fictions. And will have to play 24 islands minimum to ensure a turn 6/7Flow of Ideas.

I know it is a sorcery and it is six mana. But drawing six cards or more late game seems very yummy.

[mackaber]

Never ever ever honestly have I considered Flow of Ideas. I doubt that a card that wasn't even playable in different limited formats can make the cut in Legacy especially when drawing six means tapping out and discarding 3....

[Citrus-God]

Never ever ever honestly have I considered Flow of Ideas. I doubt that a card that wasn't even playable in different limited formats can make the cut in Legacy especially when drawing six means tapping out and discarding 3....

Opportunity is a much better card than Flow of Ideas. At least it's an instant, albeit, a clunky one.

[Illissius]

I've been thinking about Scrying Sheets -- specifically, trying to think of a deck where you can run Sheets, Top, and lots of shuffle effects -- and blue actually looks like a good bet. Though you don't have that many actual shuffle effects (Shoreline Ranger, Mystical Tutor, Merchant Scroll, Intuition, Trinket Mage, and Tezzeret are the realistic options, out of which Tez actually looks very interesting), you do have Impulse and Fact or Fiction, which are just as great: once you run out of Snow Lands in the top three to Sheets, you cast Impulse or Fact, which will both be gassier than usual thanks to your top three cards all being business spells, and also reset the top of your library. You could run Oona's Grace, Call the Skybreaker, and/or Forbid to take advantage of the extra lands, and Counterbalance to go with Top, if you like. If you want to model yourself after Quinn, you could use Severance-Belcher as the win condition.

[Jason]

I am currently using Think Twice and really enjoy the card. Turn two, if I don't counter anything, I can cycle it out of my hand and have the same option turn three. It has great synergy with Fact or Fiction. It has been really good to me, but Oona's Grace seems intriguing because it seems to be good in all the ways Think Twice is except that it doesn't cost 2. I am going to try the retraceable draw and see if I need my draw to come down EOT turn two or if the ability to continually draw one card for 3 mana + 1 land comes in handy.

FYI, I also tried Murmurs from Beyond and found that card ok. It wasn't great and I definitely found Think Twice to be better.

[Illissius]

Another card which should be compared with Think Twice is Flash of Insight. The mana costs for cycling it and flashing it back are the exact reverse of Think Twice, which is awkward, but on the plus side you get to look at a lot more cards in the late game.

[Shawon]

Earlier someone listed an index of card draw/parity. Perhaps we can continue the series with lands.

Here are lands which I think are playable/testable in MUC (in no part. order):

- Scrying Sheets (obv CA)
- Urza's Factory (bad with B2B, but still, recursion is powerful)
- Storage Lands (e.g. Calciform Pool...gives you enough mana to cast threats with counter backup)
- Wasteland (in sb...Randy Buehler used these in his Draw-Go to beat control in the mana race)
- Academy Ruins

That's all I can think of for now. Add on.

[mackaber]

- Wasteland (in sb...Randy Buehler used these in his Draw-Go to beat control in the mana race)


I don't think non basics have a place in this dec in general, not because of B2B but of opposing wastelands.
Also those wastelands in Randy Bueler's dec were actually less there for mana denial than a specific metagame consideration on his part. The older generation of Draw-Go or Cuneo-Blue as it was originally referred to was actually running stalking stones and quicksands and relied on stalking stones as it's primary kill condition. So since he had to deal with opposing Stalking Stones and with opposing wastelands which could quite effectively nail his only kill condition he ran wastelands himself. While this weakend his aggro game he compensated with Force Spikes.

Today we do need to deal with factories but these are handled quite well by shakels and B2B. So we shouldn't realy mess around with wasteland since usually we need more mana than our opponents.

[Captain Hammer]

I agree on the Wastelands, but I don't think the small chance of an opponent keeping in their wastelands is a good reason to play zero nonbbasics.

I think a very strong path to take for this deck is to fit in...

20 Snow-Covered Island
4 Scrying Sheets
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3-4 Counterbalance

Both Sheets and Counterbalance are great on their own but just plain ridiculous with Sensei's Divining Top. It seems wrong not to play.

Your curve fits Counterbalance well.

At 1cc, you have top, spell snare and some other stuff.

At 2cc, you have counterbalance, counterspell and lots of other nonsense.

At 3cc, you have B2B, TFK and Shackles.

[Shawon]

20 Snow-Covered Island
4 Scrying Sheets
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3-4 Counterbalance

At 1cc, you have top, spell snare and some other stuff.

At 2cc, you have counterbalance, counterspell and lots of other nonsense.

At 3cc, you have B2B, TFK and Shackles.

Sounds good at face value, but how do you fit all of those cards in one deck and still be effective? Do you have such a list?

[Soulles]

So i need some input. 18th January, there will be a Grand Prix Trial in Holland for Chicago. Being the only Legacy Trial with a very nice price support, i do hope to end up somewhere in the upper section of the standings.

Besides the Free ticket and hotel expenses, there are some cool prices like Ipods, duals and what not.

Now i expect an attendence of 100+ and i am really unsure on which sideboard to create.

So far my plan is
4x Annul
4x Chalice of the void
3x Tormo'ds crypt
1x Relic of Progentius
3x Propaganda.

Now, i can explain Annul first. I think it is a very underrated blue card atm. With the rise of Dreadstill, i think it is a fine weapon to use. It's also a nice card vs Stax, Enchantress, Deeds and so on

Chalice of the void, i think i need this card quite bad vs TES and ANT. I won to many matches vs combo just because of this card.

Graveyard hate, i still fear Ichorid, even though it is quite dead in Holland. Hardly played. But i also like these cards vs Loam, Breakfest and survival decks.

Propaganda, one of the cards i sometimes wish i had in the board and when i do have them, i hardly get to use.

Cards i do like to play also in my sideboard
2x Turnabout vs Landstill and It's the Fear.
3x Diverts vs Discard decks (Eva Green, Dead guy)
4x Hydroblast

And maybe stifles.


Am quite not sure what to make of it yet. Hope there is some input.

Decklist i'll be running would be,

2x Morphling
2x Kira
4x Sower

3x Spell Snare
4x Force Spike
4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
4x Fact or Fiction

4x Back to Basics
2x Powder Keg
3x Vedalken Shackles

24x Islands

[Shawon]

4x Annul
4x Chalice of the void
3x Tormo'ds crypt
1x Relic of Progentius
3x Propaganda

Nice call on Annul. I'd cut one, though, you don't want to risk having too many dead cards in your sideboard. Seems safer.

Why not run 4 Relics? Relic might as well read "Kill target Terravore." Also, Ichorid sometimes runs Chalice, too, so you can count on Relic to dodge Chalice. The only downside to running Relic over Tormod's Crypt is you're too slow against Ichorid, but I'd take those chances. Besides, you have Spike and FoW to buy you the first turn so you can cast Relic.

Propaganda is a good card, but it's only good as a 4-of. One Propaganda might be game over against Ichorid (unless they run Akroma, watch out), but against aggro it's sometime just a speed bump. However, double Propaganda more often than not is game over against aggro. You really want to max out at 4 Props.

So overall, I'd go -1 Annul, +1 Propaganda.

[TheJollyRaja]

Here's what I've been toying with for a sideboard:

1x Relic of Progenitus
4x Tormod's Crypt
4x Pithing Needle
2x Threads of Disloyalty
4x Blue Elemental Blast

(I run 4x Propaganda and 3x Back to Basics in the main)

What do people think about BeB versus Chill? I like how BeB can be good against Aggro Red decks in both the early and late game and Chill is weak-ish after turn 6 (assuming you survive that long). BeB is also pretty decent against Ad Nauseum that runs Red. But Chill just seems absurd on turn two against Goblins, Dragon Stompy, Mono Red Burn.

Thoughts?

[mackaber]

I really think relic is strictly superior to Crypt. Also I'd feel kind of naked without Hydroblasts in the Board. While I agree that you need something against Combo, runinng Chalices with 7 MD 1 CC spells seems a bit unsynergistic. I'd recomend trying Vendillion Cliques somewhere between MD and Sideboard, they've been working great for me. Also I think Annul is just a piece of shit but I guess I'll have to expand a bit further on that. Dreadstill from my testing, allbeit with a different list, is really one of your best matchups, furthermore the only spell I'd want to annul is CB (since countering the naught is usually not the best play) and you have Spell Snares and whatnot for those already. From my testing disk was totally house vs dreadstill which btw also completly demolishes any sort of Stax dec altough it might not work with the high number of permanents in your dec.

[Arsenal]

Due to my meta (slow as balls, control-dominant), I've been getting away with 4 AV, 4 FoF, 2 Jace as my draw suite. I've been contemplating going -2 Jace and +2 Future Sight. Future Sight is more expensive to cast, but I rarely cast Jace on turn 3 anyway, so it isn't that much of a difference.

Future Sight is slightly more vulnerable to hate cards, but it also has the potential of getting really, really stupid (land on top, play land, AV now on top, play AV, etc). I feel it's one of those cards that if it resolves in the control mirror (something I see a lot of), it's GGPO.

Thoughts on Future Sight in a slow meta?

[mackaber]

I've only played future sight in limited and if memory serves corectly in block constructed at some point. Resolved it's totally nuts, I just don't think it belongs in MUC since your not gonna be casting stuff proactively, also everyone packs Krosan Grip nowadays. IMHO it seems like overkill. Your control MU should be awesome anyways.
I've been starting to test AV and must say I really like it.

[Arsenal]

Yeah, I always viewed Future Sight as "win-more", but I've also always been trying to find an excuse to play it. It's completely retarded if it resolves.

[Jason]

Future Sight is slightly more vulnerable to hate cards, but it also has the potential of getting really, really stupid (land on top, play land, AV now on top, play AV, etc). I feel it's one of those cards that if it resolves in the control mirror (something I see a lot of), it's GGPO.


Umm..can you play Ancestral Vision from Future Sight? It says play it as though it is in your hand and you can't play the card from your hand because it has no mana cost - you must suspend it. You cannot suspend from the top of your library with Future Sight, just like you can't cycle. I'm just saying I don't think what you are saying works.

The main problem with the card for me is it costs 5 mana. I know that's not "a lot" seeing as we should be playing a land a turn. But it is indeed going to be a card I won't want to see in my hand before turn 5 and sometimes before turn 7 or 8. The card is ridiculous when it is in play, but oftentimes it won't see play until the part of the game where you are in the position of probably winning the game or probably losing the game. In the probably winning scenario, it will certainly strengthen your situation; however, in the probably losing scenario, it just seems like it will not get there. In either case, the card seems unnecessary to me.

[elof]

Have anyone seen this new card from Conflux?

Traumatic Visions :3::u::u:
Instant (C)
Counter target spell.
:1::u:Basic landcycling

I wonder if it is possible to play it in some MUC-build. It does alow "fetching" basiclands in off-colors for EE. It provides mana in the early game. It counters in the late game.

I guess it's probebly to slow but it might be good in decks that want to use EE but not as much fetches.

What do you guys think?

[mackaber]

Have anyone seen this new card from Conflux?

Traumatic Visions :3::u::u:
Instant (C)
Counter target spell.
:1::u:Basic landcycling

I wonder if it is possible to play it in some MUC-build. It does alow "fetching" basiclands in off-colors for EE. It provides mana in the early game. It counters in the late game.

I guess it's probebly to slow but it might be good in decks that want to use EE but not as much fetches.

What do you guys think?

Sounds like an awesome card. Just not for legacy. Considering how rarely I hardcast Force and that I wouldn't want to pay 2 to fetch a land (remember this can be stifled just like a fetchland) both modi seem overpriced.

[Arsenal]

Umm..can you play Ancestral Vision from Future Sight? It says play it as though it is in your hand and you can't play the card from your hand because it has no mana cost - you must suspend it. You cannot suspend from the top of your library with Future Sight, just like you can't cycle. I'm just saying I don't think what you are saying works.

The main problem with the card for me is it costs 5 mana. I know that's not "a lot" seeing as we should be playing a land a turn. But it is indeed going to be a card I won't want to see in my hand before turn 5 and sometimes before turn 7 or 8. The card is ridiculous when it is in play, but oftentimes it won't see play until the part of the game where you are in the position of probably winning the game or probably losing the game. In the probably winning scenario, it will certainly strengthen your situation; however, in the probably losing scenario, it just seems like it will not get there. In either case, the card seems unnecessary to me.

Yeah, totally mindfarted on Suspend's wording. But you get the general isea; chaining cards into cards, netting +2-3 per turn.

See, I'd only be running 2 Future Sight (in place of my 2 Jace), so it isn't like I'd be seeing it in my opening hand or anything like that. Also, my meta is slow to the point where games aren't decided by turn 6-7; both decks are typically still building their mana and setting up their board positions. In the event that I'm in an advantageous position, Future Sight > Jace. In the event that I'm in a disadvantageous position, neither card will really help turn the tide.

[mackaber]

See, I'd only be running 2 Future Sight (in place of my 2 Jace), so it isn't like I'd be seeing it in my opening hand or anything like that.

Not to be offensive or anything but that was one truly awesome brainfart if I've ever seen one. Since when do 2 offs never show up in one's opening hand?
But seriously, after nothing but arguments against Future Sight your still really considering it? I must commend your drive for innovation!

[Arsenal]

No, but I disagree with the points you're making against Future Sight.

[Misplayer]

Has anyone else found that Sower has weakened a bit in the past month or so (in non-Kira builds)? I play a permanent-based MUC similar to some of Kadaj’s recent builds, and it seems that the format has shifted back to more creature hate than enchantment/artifact hate. Sure, any deck that can support :G: runs Krosan Grip, but beyond that what other answers to deck’s run to cards like Shackles and Threads/Control Magic that caused these cards to become subpar? In some matchups, most notably UGR Dreadstill, Sower is a wrecking ball, because they don’t fear (m)any creatures in the format and therefore don’t run (m)any answers. In other matchups like Thrash and Team America, Sower is beyond fragile. I’m considering moving it to the board, but how much will this weaken game 1 against aggro strategies (having already moved Propaganda to the board?)

Here’s what I’m thinking:

Definite -
24 Island

2 Morphling
1 Call the Skybreaker

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Ancestral Vision

4 Back to Basics
4 Powder Keg
2 Vedalken Shackles

53 Cards

Possible Configurations for remaining 7 slots:
+3/4 Sower of Temptation
+3/4 Chalice of the Void

+4 Propaganda
+3 Spell Snare

+2/3 Sower of Temptation
+1 Vedalken Shackles
+3/4 Spell Snare/Chalice of the Void

Other cards considered:
Think Twice
Repeal/Capsize
Island

I’m very torn on the strength of Chalice in this deck. Obviously it and Spell Snare are mutually exclusive. In the matchups where it’s strongest, you usually have to play it around Daze, and by then they’ve already Brainstormed, Pondered, and dropped Top or Mongoose. I understand it’s not designed to be a proactive answer to these cards like it is in Whatever-Stompy or Stax, but it feels like it’s improving your mid-late game which is already fairly/very strong. However, shutting off 1/3 of your opponents spells seems good.

I’ve also missed Propaganda on occasion, such as when you have your opponent under the strain of B2B but they have an unanswered threat or two. It’s obvious other strengths are against Ichorid decks and Empty the Warrens (do storm decks even play that anymore?) Finding a Propaganda in these situations can at the very least buy you the time you need to find more answers, but does this outweigh the fact that it is very weak against cards like Dreadnaught and Tombstalker where Sower would be much stronger?

Lastly, the decisions above greatly influence sideboard decisions. Like the maindeck, some slots I’m pretty confident about:

2 Jace Berelen
4 BEB/Hydroblast

Other considerations include:
Propaganda
Sower of Temptation
Vedalken Shackles
Disrupt
Submerge
Chill
Pithing Needle

The more I think about it, the more I’m leaning towards
3 Sower
1 Shackles
3 Chalice of the Void

4 Propaganda
3 Pithing Needle
2 Repeal/Capsize/Submerge

…but this still feels wrong. :-/

[Jason]

I always feel like I am going to regret it when not having Spell Snare in the maindeck. With shenanigans like Sinkhole; Hymn to Tourach; random annoying creatures like Tarmogoyf that you don't want to steal; or Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor and other combo pieces, I truly feel like Spell Snare is one of the most powerful cards you can run. It's awesome against the mirror and any Landstill deck that runs Counterspell too.

I might try
+1 Shackles
+3 Sower
+3 Spell Snare

Yeah, you won't be able to "protect" Sower from Swords to Plowshares aside from Counterspell and Force of Will, but you will also have 3 Shackles to fall back on.

My main question with Chalice of the Void: how often is it necessary to be set at 1 for you to win the game? Your opponent will not always have Swords to Plowshares for your Sower. And your opponent should not be keeping Swords to Plowshares in game 2 and 3 just for Sower - he or she should have more important spells against you. It seems Chalice will only be decent against combo (assuming combo doesn't win before you hit Chalice at 1) and will only be awesome game 1. Games 2 and 3 you should have something better to board in most of the time. I don't like running a card that I will be sideboarding out a lot.

Aside from that, if you do keep Chalice of the Void, would it not be possible to run Thirst for Knowledge over Ancestral Vision? I'm not sure if that is enough artifacts to take advantage of the card or not...I'm just throwing that out there as maybe something you could try.

[TheJollyRaja]

@ Misplayer: Love the list. I've been testing something very similar and your list looks really, really solid. Our starting 53 are identical except I cut one B2B and one Powder Keg for 2 Misdirection

I like 4x Propaganda and 3x Spell Snare to fill those seven slots. Propaganda is just too good not to start four of. Among other things, it gives you a game plan against Ichorid game one.

As for the board, what would you bring Jace in against? I'm even thinking of starting two of him instead of the Misdirections. Also, how has Chill been treating you? Obviously he's absurd against Mono Red, but what about against Aggro Loam and ANT? Making Empty the Warrens cost 6 seems pretty nuts.

[Illissius]

How's this look, for a take on Sheets MUC? (See also earlier thoughts (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=305483&postcount=865).)

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Impulse
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Counterbalance
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Powder Keg
4 Vedalken Shackles
2 Call the Skybreaker
4 Scrying Sheets
19 Snow-Covered Island
SB: 4 Sower of Temptation
SB: 4 Jace Beleren
SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Back to Basics

For once, this is more than just theoretical -- it's possible I might physically acquire the cards for something along these lines, because it's relatively inexpensive, and looks like a deck I might actually have fun playing (unlike, say, Ichorid).

I'm vaguely worried about post-sideboard Counterbalance mirrors where my opponent will have Counterbalances and Grips whereas I'll only have the former. But I can't think of anything really good to even the odds, only random bounce (Wipe Away is not Krosan Grip) or stuff like Disk. It's too bad Teferi doesn't stop activated abilities, because that could've been sort of tech.

[Soulles]

You have to trust me when i say; Fact or Fiction is the best blue card after Force of Will.

You really want 4 of them. No matter what.

if you play vs counterbalance, keep your spell snares for them. You will be trading them with each other.

I would play 3 sensei and 4 fact or fictions.

[TheJollyRaja]

Why play top at all? You don't need to curve out your draw, really, and you don't have the shuffle effects to abuse it.

[KillemallCFH]

I just Top8'd the Mox Emerald Tournament in Hadley (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12094). I didn't take any notes, so this is all from memory. My list was as follows:

23 Island
1 Academy Ruins

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Force Spike
3 Spell Snare

4 Fact or Fiction
4 Thirst for Knowledge

4 Nevinyrral's Disk
4 Vedalken Shackles
3 Relic of Progentinus

1 Rainbow Efreet
1 Call the Skybreaker

1 Capsize

SB: 4 Back to Basics
SB: 3 Sower of Temptation
SB: 3 Propaganda
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt

Round 1 vs UGrw Thresh (Josh)
Game 1 I win handily by doing what MUC does - i.e counter his spells, draw some cards, and beat him down with his own Goyfs. Game 2 he gets Mongeese and Teeg and counters anything relevant I try to do. Game 3 he gets another Teeg. I try for a Shackles and he blind reveals a Trygon Predator off of CB. From there I can't really come back.
(0-1; 1-2)

Round 2 vs GRbw Survival (???)
Game 1 I keep a hand of Force, Force Spike, Counterspell, Spell Snare, Spell Snare, Island, Island. He Thoughtseizes, taking Force. Next turn he 'seizes again, taking Counterspell, then tries for a Top, which I Force Spike. Next turn he Therapies away Spell Snare and lands a Survival. After dumping most relevant cards from his library into his yard, I Relic him and 2 Shackles seal the game for me shortly thereafter. Game 2 I don't remember but he is actually able to win with Survival. I think Teeg was involved here. Game 3 I don't really remember the details. It's pretty long, and I am missing land drops, so the Orcish Settlers (yes, Orcish Settlers) he drops is a threat to me. I have 2 Vedalken Shackles and a Sower to take care of it, all of which are answered. However, in those 3 turns, I was able to hit some lands and didn't really care when he finally blew up two of my lands. I think I eventually hit Relic or two in this game and then land an Efreet. Time is called and I don't have enough damage to kill him. He had Genesis'd (I think) back his Orcish Settlers at some point, and landed a Goyf. On turn 3 of extra turns, I rip a Sower and take his Goyf. On his turn he does nothing. On turn 5 I capsize away his one blocker, and swing for 11 while he is at 10. Easily the most intense game of the tournament. Overall, I think if my opponent played better, I would've lost these games, but he clearly was not very fluent in playing his deck.
(1-1; 3-3)

Round 3 vs Dark Depths combo (???)
These weren't even games. My opponent was playing a deck that relied on Crop Rotation for Dark Depths, Animate Land (to make Dark Depths a creature), and Fate Transfer, to move all the counters to get a Marit Leige in play. Game 1 I sit there and create card advantage. I allow him to "go off" and Capsize his 20/20 in response to him equipping Lightning Greaves. Call the Skybreaker ended the game shortly thereafter. Game 2 was basically the same, except he just scooped instead of actually losing. Apparantly this guy had never heard of non-basic hate, because his manabase appeared to be a bunch of fetches + 4 Trops + 4 Breeding Pools. I land a B2B, he tries to go off, I stop him, he scoops. By the time he tried to go off, I had resolved like 3 FoFs and a Thirst or 2 was sitting on a hand of 2 Force, 2 Spell Snare, 3 Counterspell.
(2-1; 5-3)

Round 4 vs Geddon Stax (Jay/Afro on The Source)
I had lost to him in Round 4 of the Source Tournament in October, so now it was time for revenge. Game 1 I let some irrelevant lock pieces resolve and counter Geddon. He scoops it up when I have total control of the game. Game 2 I counter his 2 Defense Grids, and go for Call the Skybreaker on turn 7. He can't deal with it and loses.
(3-1; 7-3)

Round 5 vs Dragon Stompy (Bryan/FN Bryan on The Source)
This matchup is beyond easy for MUC. Game 1 he plays guys and I either counter them, destroy them, or steal them. Game 2 I get 3 Sowers and 3 BEBs from the board I win it easily. Both games he lands a Trinisphere which I am able to completely ignore.
(4-1; 9-3)

Round 6 vs Survival (Jared/Jaynel on The Source)
We ID, which is good, because Jared has a really bad habit of getting paired against me and always knocking me out of Top8 contention.
(4-1-1; 9-3)

Top 8 vs Uwb Landstill (Geoff/Konsultant on The Source)
Game 1 is pretty long. We both do a bunch of control things, and I seem to be in winning position when he endstep Decrees for 10 dudes. He wins shortly thereafter. I make what may have been a mistake in this game when I played out an Efreet with only 7 lands. I'm not sure why I played him; I might've been under pressure of some sort. If not, this was clearly a poor choice. He has 2 removal spells and I am only able to phase out once. Game 2 is rather anticlimactic. My opening hand has just an Academy Ruins in it for lands, and my second one has just an Island. I know I'm not going to win the control mirror on one land, so I go to 5. I forget what my 5 card hand was, but it was unimpressive, and Geoff was able to win easily.
(4-2-1; 9-5)

Overall I was really impressed with the build. Here are some random thoughts:
FoF is really good. Like, ridiculously fucking good. Never, ever, play less than 4. Relic is okay. Unless you have multiples, it is really bad at keeping Goyf small. However, it does help a lot to shore up some bad matchups. More than 8 artifacts are necessary if you want to run Thirst, and these seem pretty good. Before the tournament, I put serious consideration into running Needle in that slot. It certainly would've helped a lot in the Landstill match, as well as the Survival match. In the future, I might try it out, though Relic might be better. Thirst is also really good. I was running Think Twice before, and Thirst is approximately 73903 times better. Also, don't run less than 4. Call the Skybreaker is a very good wincon. Rainbow Efreet is okay. I was happy with my choice of wincons and never wished I had a Morphling or anything else. Nevy's disk is sloooooooow. However, it's still better than Powder Keg I think. God I wish I could just run Deed. Academy Ruins is really good. Even if it is a Wasteland-magnet in some matchups. You can still get one use out of it, which can often be enough. Vedalken Shackles is amazing. Again, never run less than 4. I never missed MD Back to Basics. They are only good against decks running ~0 Basics. Unlike decks like Thresh and Merfolk, MUC cannot capitalize on your opponent struggling for a couple turns to find basics (which they usually are able to do). I'm considering not running any even in the board, though that might be an awful idea, as that'll hurt my Thrash and TA matchups. Still, the only time I used it yesterday was when my opponent was playing Factory, and Needle can take care of them even better. SB Sowers are very good, especially in matchups where your opponent boards out removal. He helps the Aggro and some Aggro-control matchups a lot. Capsize was pretty good. I don't think I'm going to go above one, but it will most likely stay in there. Teeg is a bitch. Sitting with Disks, FoFs, and FoWs in hand and not being able to cast them is no fun. Decree is a huge bitch. I almost boarded Propaganda in against Landstill because of how much that card rapes me. A preemptive Disk is the only real way to stop it, and that can easily be answered (at least by Geoff's list, which ran Vindicates). I really want Needles somewhere in the 75 for the Landstill match.

That was a lot longer than I originally intended. tl;dr version: Go MUC!

[TheJollyRaja]

Thanks for such an in depth account of MUC in the real world. A couple questions about card choices:

1) Force Spike: Thumbs up or thumbs down?
2) What about Ancestral Vision over the Thirsts? As a follow up, would you still run the Relics if you cut the Thirsts?
3) Did you ever wish you had Propaganda game 1?

[GGoober]

Great job on the result and report!

I personally am running a what I call "MUCart" list (MUC + artifacts) with 4 Thirsts and 4 FoF, similar to Kill's list.

There is no reason why any list should run less than 4FoF. FoF gives you the great mid-game when you're at a risk of losing CA and control of the game. Disk has always been great for me even if it's slow because it entirely destroys the game in your favor.

In the MUCart list, Thirst is almost FoF a turn earlier. It is simply amazing in the deck/curve and gives the deck steam throughout the entire game. It sucks sometimes that you end up with no artifacts in the 3 draws, but most of the time, it's Draw-go draw 3 cards EOT for good CA.

All I can say that with the MUCart list, it is good to go for: 2 Gifts Ungiven MD, for very easy reasons. In the MUCart list that Kill and I run, with Gifts, you can easily see it as FoF numbers 5-6, but TUTORING for win-cons.

Gifts into: Vedalken Shackles + Disk + Ruins + Skybreaker is amazing when you're getting beaten down by goyfs/tombstalkers. Most likely, the opponent will put Ruins/Shackles into the yard, and you end up with Skybreaker to chump for a turn, and then playing skybreaker continously.

My only argument against the Gifts build is that it is only good if you have space for another Crucible, therefore allowing you to gifts into Crucible + ruins + 2 threats. They either stop the Ruin engine or face the next 2 threats (namely Shackles/CtS)

I'm personally not impressed by Force Spike, but I have to say it's what we have at the 1mana slot. I'm not a big fan of Relic and would you mind explaining in detail what Relic does for the deck? I generally play 2Needles Mainboard, which are tutorable with Gifts

[Illissius]

In the MUCart list, Thirst is almost FoF a turn earlier. It is simply amazing in the deck/curve and gives the deck steam throughout the entire game. It sucks sometimes that you end up with no artifacts in the 3 draws

That's one thing. But don't you also have situations where Shackles or Disk is the most valuable card in your hand and you really don't want to discard either it nor two others? It seems like that would come up pretty often.

[GGoober]

The way I see TfK without discarding a useless artifact is the same way as playing Impulse.

The idea is to dig into 3 cards (4 for impulse) and pick the best from the 3 (or 4). Say you digged into 3 cards and had to discard 2, one might go on and say "Damn it, I had to discard 2 good cards!" Therefore TfK isn't good. I don't think that's an arguement because think about it this way. There is no way of knowing what is on the top 3 cards, so picking 1 out of the 3 is already a good form of CA. You could have easily drawn 3 lands off TfK instead of 3 good non-artifact spells. All these are random and shouldn't be counted to an arguement why TfK isn't good. In a deck that ups the artifact counts, TfK becomes increasingly good.

The same arguement actually goes for a lot of cards which has the same effect as TfK. Brainstorm maybe a good example. Suppose you were playing with Brainstorm + Fetches, and drew 3 bad cards with no shuffle effect. That would not be a good arguement to say that brainstorm isn't a good card, and Ponder should be run instead. The very truth is that the top 3 cards are random, and there is no way of knowing what they are. Shuffling effects greatly improve Brainstorm, just as upping artifacts in MUCart build greatly increases the draw quality of TfK. Brainstorm, TfK, Impulse are all good cards, because you get to dig deep into your library, and pick the best options. It's much better compared to spells such as Mental Note, Opt or Peek since you simply draw a card, and don't have a choice involved.

I think this is the reason why Kill said that TfK is 77900 times better than Think Twice. Sure, you can use Think Twice twice (lol) but the deal is you only draw 1 card each time, and don't have a choice/option on what to choose. TfK at 3cc allows you to draw 1 out of 3 at worse, or simply draw 2 out of 3.

[Illissius]

Sure, but Thirst for Knowledge as Brainstorm for three mana is significantly worse than a draw spell which actually lets you draw and keep multiple cards. (There aren't very many of these which are good besides Fact or Fiction -- which is the problem.)

[Shawon]

Sure, but Thirst for Knowledge as Brainstorm for three mana is significantly worse than a draw spell which actually lets you draw and keep multiple cards. (There aren't very many of these which are good besides Fact or Fiction -- which is the problem.)

Cosign. The only other CA spell that comes close to being as good as FoF is AV, however, with CB running around it's not the be-all-end-all CA supplement to FoF. Think Twice is only considered as alternative to AV because it can be cast turn 2, finding your needed lands/utility faster. Thirst for Knowledge is better than Tx2 with respect to digging, but Tx2 might be preferable since it's faster.

Overall, despite CB running around, I still think AV is the best supplement to FoF.

[TheJollyRaja]

Here's the list I've been running with a reasonable amount of success:

24 Island

2 Morphling
1 Call the Skybreaker

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Ancestral Vision

4 Propaganda
3 Back to Basics
3 Powder Keg
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Misdirection

SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 4 Chill

Card quantity explanations:

4 Propaganda- Not negotiable, imo. Beats decks you have no business beating (namely Ichorid, but also Goblins and Affinity).

3 Back to Basics- 4 is too many since decks will be making a point to fun as few non-basics as possible.

3 Powder Keg- Can be a dead card against combo et. al. 3 feels nice to me.

2 Vedalken Shackles- I have not fallen in love with Shackles yet, but people tell me it's absurd. I just have visions of having this guy on the board while ANT and Dreadnaught giggle condescendingly at me.

2 Misdirection- Might replace for 2x Jace. This slot is up for grabs.

And I think Shawon is right that AV is the best supplement to FoF.

[Eldariel]

Nice job Top 8ing. Few things though:


Nevy's disk is sloooooooow. However, it's still better than Powder Keg I think. God I wish I could just run Deed.

Wouldn't Keg have pretty much solved the Thresh and Landstill MUs though? I mean, Keg wipes out tokens like nobody's business and Teeg is hardly an issue.


I never missed MD Back to Basics. They are only good against decks running ~0 Basics. Unlike decks like Thresh and Merfolk, MUC cannot capitalize on your opponent struggling for a couple turns to find basics (which they usually are able to do). I'm considering not running any even in the board, though that might be an awful idea, as that'll hurt my Thrash and TA matchups. Still, the only time I used it yesterday was when my opponent was playing Factory, and Needle can take care of them even better

Wouldn't B2B have again solved the match-ups the two matches you lost (plus the Survival and whatever)? I mean, Thresh can't function effectively with just its basics; they can drop a threat or cast dig or twiddle their Counterbalance, but they're limited to doing one per turn, which seems like it'd really help you attain control, and against Landstill, they just lose to it. Of course, people play Propaganda to assist B2B; as you don't have the former, B2B is worse too. Still, it seems like it would've wrecked your opponents all day long. Even Geddon Stax is inconvenienced by it. And survival isn't exactly the most frightening thing ever with one-two functional lands in play.


Also, Call the Skybreaker looks really janky at 7-mana Sorcery. Sure, it gives you inevitability, but you pretty much have that already, and 'Pling plays much better defense wrecking Geese left and Stalkers right; when playtesting against MUC with Thresh, the losses generally came from B2B stopping me from effectively using my dig/CBalance/whatever and Pling/Keg stopping whatever I had in play; having slower outs to the creatures in play just seems weak.

[kensook]

@ TheJollyRaja
Your list only has 57 cards MD. Probably missing 3 Spell Snares?

[TheJollyRaja]

Dur, yes. Sorry 'bout that.

[Misplayer]

@KillemallCFH

I feel like you’re underrating B2B. Eldariel already made a strong argument for why it’s good, and I’ll try not to reiterate what has already been said. Granted, B2B doesn’t shut off your opponent from doing anything, but it does prevent them from doing a lot of things. Also, your point that B2B can’t take advantage of the tempo generated it generates is only partly true. You’re not going to start smashing them and ending the game after playing it, because that’s not what MUC does, especially where you run 2 win-cons. Instead, while they’re trying to find basics they’re also probably not doing anything relevant. MUC uses that time to load up its hand on counters, play more board control pieces, and eventually drop/steal a beater (I’ve found Morphling to be the best in these situations, but that’s another debate). Here’s when B2B is bad (aside from playing against Mono X deck): when you don’t have board position. B2B is not an answer in this situation and it is akin to drawing a counterspell. I like to run a build of MUC that has a balance of control pieces and answers to threats, whereas your build is basically 100% answers (although shackles is really both). I’m excluding card-draw and counterspells from this comparison because they are common to any control deck. Here’s my current list (I took Jason’s suggestion to my previous post, plus went up to 4 spell snare and dropped a land because I was regularly getting flooded):

23 Island

2 Morphling
3 Sower of Temptation
1 Call the Skybreaker

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Fact or Fiction

4 Back to Basics
4 Powder Keg
3 Vedalken Shackles

SB: 4 Propaganda
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 BEB/Hydroblast
SB: 2 Jace Berelen (for control matchups) or Annul (I play in a survival heavy meta)
SB: 1 ?? (Formerly 4th Spell Snare, maybe Capsize or 5th Blast?)

Our builds are pretty different, but I don’t think any of the matchups you faced would have been weaker with this build aside from Stax because of my inability to clear the board completely. Also, an early Trinisphere is a real bitch when you play Ancestral Vision; this makes the Dragon Stompy matchup slightly annoying as well.

Now I’m going to make what may be a very stupid suggestion. You mentioned that you considered Needle in the Relic spot; in certain matchups would Needle be worthwhile to shut off fetches if you land a Back to Basics? I know it’s extremely situational and probably a waste of a powerful card, but I figured I’d put it out there just to get a definitive “That is a dumb idea” response if nothing else.

@TheJollyRaja
Your arguments against Shackles can be applied to Propaganda just as easily, if not more easily.

I like 4 Keg as a catch-all for resolved threats that you can’t answer such as Mongoose and Dreadnaught, and it’s also very good at keeping Factories down preventing your opponent from over-extending, which in turn can buy you the time you need to establish control. It also answers EtW tokens nicely, although in your build Propaganda serves that function I suppose.

Lastly, why Threads out of the side instead of Sower? You know the Grips and whatnot are coming in Games 2 and 3 and the Swords/Snuff Outs are going out.

[TheJollyRaja]

My only thinking is that while GP: Chicago won't be totally scrub-tastic, I'm expecting a lot of Aggro. Ill try out the 4x Powder Keg, since it does help in a lot of instances.

My original idea behind Threads was so that I could steal Goyf's and Naught's more easily (whereas both Shackles and Sower can be Stifled/Trickbinded). Although now that I think about it, if I can't steal a Goyf with 5 power with Shackles, I have much bigger problems. I do like the Sower's in the board, though.

I still don't like not having access to at least 3 Propaganda in the maindeck, but as I said before, maybe I'll feel better about that when I have 4x Powder Keg.

Thanks for yoru thoughts.

[Barsoom]

I really like your list Misplayer, it's the closest to mine i saw in this thread for now, i run as follow:

23 Island

2 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet
4 Sower of Temptation

4 Powder Keg
3 Vedalken Shackles

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Force Spike
3 Spell Snare
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm

// Sideboard //
4 Back to Basics
4 Propaganda
3 Mana Leak
1 Jace Beleren
3 Relic of Progenitus

So, Efreet instead of CtS, Force Spikes instead of BtB (not so many decks with non basics here, it's fine for me on SB), and Brainstorm instead of AV (i really like Brainstom, also without fetches).
I was playing with 4 Propaganda main, and 4 Sower side, but then i realized that the card i was siding out the most was Propaganda, and siding in was Sowers, so i made the change, and it's running fine; Sowers+Shackles are really imba.
23 Islands is perfect imho, with (better) or without Brainstorm; the Leaks are here for decks where Keg or Control Magic cards are useless, and Relics cause THE universal control deck aka MUC needs the best control card against graveyard.decks and every deck that run Goyf or Tombstalker; for me, it's a completion of the deck's strategy.

[elof]

Samsunait:
Your list looks very solid, just one question. If you where to replace Brainstorm with any card, what would it be? Is it possible to play BtB in any of those slots or thus the deck lack cantrips/card-drawers?

[Soulles]

Samsunait:
Your list looks very solid, just one question. If you where to replace Brainstorm with any card, what would it be? Is it possible to play BtB in any of those slots or thus the deck lack cantrips/card-drawers?

I think brainstorm could go from his list and put Back to Basics instead.
4 Fact or Fictions is all you need, really.

[Mordel]

I think brainstorm could go from his list and put Back to Basics instead.
4 Fact or Fictions is all you need, really.
Samsunait's list has only twenty-three land...four sowers and brainstorm basically goes against every shred of theory that I have ever learned from playing and reading about Draw-go, which is basically drop a land every turn and do as little during your own turn as possible and if you do anything during your own turn, it better either be extremely cost-effective or be involved with winning the game in a few turns.

That obviously has been trimmed-down a bit, but the gyst is there.

The list is basically has all the weaknesses of a stack-based list(aka propagandas, ee's, a small splash in some cases and fetchlands) with none of the strengths(see above brackets).

I like the counters chosen, but seriously: twenty-three lands, four sowers and brainstorms? Give me a break. That is horribad. With how slow sower ends up being in muc(especially with no Kira's to offset this), you might as well run threads or something along those lines because in order to be able to either get sower to resolve or stay around for an untap phase, you are going to need six mana. Sometimes the control deck gets unlucky and you will miss land drops with twenty-five lands in a deck(all islands, no fetches) and that means you will either be getting basically time walked or waiting way too long to snag a creature.

I learned from years of bad luck to always be prepared for the worst, especially with draw-go strategies.

[elof]

Is maindeck Threads (or SB) all that bad? What typical creatures (Tombstalker I guess) dosn't it steal?

[Barsoom]

If i would leave Brainstorm, i'll go for 24 lands (23 with Brainstorm is way enough, without you can be in problems like 1 game out of 10; seriously Mordel, i was playing this deck for years with 22 lands with 4 fetches and 4 quicksands, and was going good; 24 or 25 lands with Brainstorm imho is too much, 23 it's okey for me; maybe i'm lucky with lands drop and your unlucky, but soulles and misplayer plays too 23 lands, and without Brainstorm.) and add maybe BtB (but i like it on the sideboard) or well i don't know what; the fact is that Brainstorm is working good for me.

As i said Sowers were on side, and was the card i was siding in the most, so i simply switched it main; maybe 4 is too much, but i need more testing for this. -1 Sower + 1 Island could be a possible fix.

[leander?]

Is maindeck Threads (or SB) all that bad? What typical creatures (Tombstalker I guess) dosn't it steal?

Terravore, Countryside Crusher. Those three are kinda scary, I suppose.

[mackaber]

Terravore, Countryside Crusher. Those three are kinda scary, I suppose.

I think terravore is dying out with relics growing popularity. If peple do still play it it'll die to relic so no worries there.
I have to agree with Mordel that I find Samsunait's list truly atrocious. A point nobody has made but strikes me as really wrong is playing BS without fetches, cause I just get really big ??? in my eyes when I see that.

[elof]

Terravore, Countryside Crusher. Those three are kinda scary, I suppose.

True, ture. However, with Terravore growing impopular thanxs to relic, it is only Crusher to worry about and the good thing with him is that if your lucky, you could wank him with Shackels while he's not huge. I guess.

[Barsoom]

I have to agree with Mordel that I find Barsoom's list truly atrocious. A point nobody has made but strikes me as really wrong is playing BS without fetches, cause I just get really big ??? in my eyes when I see that.

I think like 4eak on this point

Brainstorm is worth playing before Opt even without Fetchlands. Digging 3 deep on turn 1 is spectacular, especially for anyone who is so concerned about having a stable mana base. The shuffle effect only becomes important in the mid and late game. Goto 4 fetches if you are that worried.
I'm playing Brainstorm in MUC from years way before fetchlands was printed, and as i said, it's doing the job for me.

[mackaber]

I think like 4eak on this point



4eak plays fetches. And honestly Brainstorm was never any good without fetches, xcept maybe with Glaciers... . You might as well play opt since it's about on par with Brainstorm in most situations if you have no shuflle effects and when your looking for something digs deeper since it doesn't set you back 2 draw steps.

[Mordel]

I'm playing Brainstorm in MUC from years way before fetchlands was printed, and as i said, it's doing the job for me.

Yeah, me too '96 or '97 was when I picked up draw-go. Either way, better stuff has been printed. Also, brainstorming for lands is retarded. From the testing that I have done ancestral visions is an awesome card in conjunction with fact or fiction. Fact or fiction gives you insta gratification later in the game and ancestral gives you cards when you have started to run low.

If you want to run brainstorm properly support it with the build or choose a superior card.

[Serginho]

Hello every body, I'm new in the forum.

Since some months ago I'm playing MUC but I have realised that this deck needs a support colour to win thresold, dreadstill, etc. My choice has been black, to add Shadowmage Infiltrator and Smother (which can destroy practicaly any creature of the format). In the sideboard I have added Perish against Thresold, one of the most difficult pairings for this deck in my opinion.

This is the list:

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
16 [10E] Island (3)
3 [7E] Swamp (3)

// Creatures
4 [TSB] Shadowmage Infiltrator
2 [US] Morphling

// Spells
3 [FNM] Force Spike
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [US] Back to Basics
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
2 [GP] Repeal
3 [FNM] Smother
2 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [IA] Counterspell
1 [TE] Capsize

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [US] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 3 [TE] Perish
SB: 2 [US] Annul


I have seen that most of you are speaking about the Ancestral Vision. Well, I played it and my opinion is not very good about it. At first, it gets owned by stifle, chalice or countertop and then, it hasn't the advantage of the BS, get 3 cards when you need them and shuffle which you don't need. It's just my opinion, but after trying the Shadowmages with BS and a couple of FoF I think it's enough. (I have repeal which gives card too)

I hope I could add something to the thread. I wait for your answers.

[GGoober]

This is the latest MUCart list that I'm running. I was testing out the Scrying Sheet engine and it's amazing in mid-late game. Therefore I'm only running 2 Sheets

Manabase:
1 Academy Ruins
2 Scrying Sheet
21 Snow-Covered Island

Counterspells:
3 Force Spike
4 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

Artifacts/board control:
4 Vedalken Shackles
3 Nevrinryall's Disk
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Call the Skybreaker

Draw suite:
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Fact of Fiction
2 Gifts Ungiven

Yes, you may be asking why 3FoF and not 4, but let me explain. FoF is the next best draw after Ancestrall Recall, no doubt, but even with Ancestrall Recall, you're just drawing cards, and not knowing what the draws are. My list includes 2 Gifts Ungiven, therefore taking 1 FoF out. I'm arguing that the Gifts is actuall FoF number 4-5, which gives the MUCart list above the win-con and board stabilization.

The idea in the above list is to counter any relevant spells from turn 1-3, then draw go with FoF and Gifts. Gifts allow you to search for the following combination:

1) Disk, Shackles, Sower, Ruins
2) Shackles, Sower, Ruins, FoF
3) Ruins, Shackles, Sower, Call the Skybreaker

The deck doesn't look optimal on paper but in playing it has a very consistent draw engine, and disk answers the board fast. Gifts gives the option to find answers to Tombstalkers, creatures etc with Shackles and Sower. The lone sower is there to faciliate gifts.

On the note with scrying sheets. 4 Scrying sheet is simply BAD. You draw 1-2 early game isn't good at all. You want sheets in the mid late game after hitting 5 lands, and together with Sensei's Top, you get ridiculous draws. SDT is included since there are the few shuffling effects from gifts, and it digs for relevant cards. If it reveals useless cards, just FoF and Thirst away for a new spin with top.

I've been having good successes with the list. It's a pity I can't squeeze BtB/Propaganda. Maybe I'll drop the Thirst count to include 3 BtB main. But there's really no need at the moment in this list since Disk handles the board by itself, before you start dropping 5/5 flying elementas via Gifts ungiven.

[bowvamp]

I am starting to get into control as opposed to combo (my favorite), or aggro control (it's ok). I have a couple of questions about this deck:

Does running Sheets/Snow justify not running B2B? If you are running only 3 non-basics, and another deck is running all fetches/nonbasics wouldn't b2b still be as good? Also I'm wondering as to the optimal win-con. I personally liked the idea of running Rainbow Efreet. I also am wondering about gilded drake. Does giving your opponent a threat balance out with taking one away?

[Captain Hammer]

It seems like everyone is moving Propaganda to the sideboard or cutting it completely!

Every build posted in the past month cut Propaganda's out of the maindeck.

Is this because there's fewer swarm/goblins decks than ever? And now, everyone is playing ~10-12 really large powerful creatures as their only threats instead.

Is Propaganda just not as good a card as it used to be?

[Mordel]

I know that online, I do not come across nearly as much in the way of swarm decks that propaganda hinders. If online trends are at all indicative of what is happening at bigger metagames, there is definitely a bit of a shift going on in the way of people moving towards more hybridized strategies that turn creatures sideways. That's just what I have started to observe anyway.

[TheJollyRaja]

Propaganda is absolutely bonkers with Back to Basics...most of the time. The only matchup I've played where I was like "man, I really wish I had some other card that wasn't Propaganda" is against a rando Survival Elf deck that generated silly amounts of mana anyway and used predominantly basic lands. While it might be slightly less busted now that Affinity and Gobbos are losing favor, it's still good enough, imo, to start four of.

[Shawon]

Found this on Deck CHeck last week:

Mainboard:
3 Back to Basics
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Oona, Queen of the Fae
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
3 Sower of Temptation
4 Brainstorm
4 Fact or Fiction
3 Force Spike
4 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
16 Island

# 60

Sideboard:
3 Energy Flux
3 Propaganda
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Stifle

# 15

Any thoughts? Personally, I think basic Swamp and Plains is bad, especially with Shackles. Why not just run Powder Keg?

Oona seems way worse than either Morphling or CtS. Doesn't solve the "StP resolves?" problem.

[Arsenal]

Found this on Deck CHeck last week:

~Decklist~

Any thoughts? Personally, I think basic Swamp and Plains is bad, especially with Shackles. Why not just run Powder Keg?

Oona seems way worse than either Morphling or CtS. Doesn't solve the "StP resolves?" problem.

This is actually a pretty standard looking Draw-Go list; fetchlands + Brainstorm, EE + Plains/Swamp. Lots of counters, not a lot of permanent control cards, although the win condition looks slightly unconventional (Oona + Teferi?). Kadaj sorta outlined this style of MUC on the 1st page.

[jazzykat]

All right, I've kept an eye on this thread for months now waiting so see if "The List" would bubble up from all of the discussion.

As I see it, MUC is highly customizable and that a bajillion counters and some hard to kill high cc creature as your win con seem to be the name of the game.

I do see a fundamental difference between the BS and AV lists. If you play fetches then BS is potentially better, but if not then I think there is a very good case for AV.

What baffles me are the following:
1. Why are the lists everyone are posting relatively divergent? Is it really just different metas?
2. Why are there so many win-cons in these decks? Is it because you are afraid of going to time...? 2 Morphlings used to be enough.
3. Cryptic Command as at least a 2 of should theoretically be bonkers in this deck as it is a really cool late game card. To the people not running it: are you 1. confident in your counterbalance answers and 2. worried about Daze?
4. Why do some lists not run Morphling? You have more islands than any other deck and he is almost impossible to remove. Is this because he is not as good as he once was or is it an availability issue?

[Shawon]

What baffles me are the following:
1. Why are the lists everyone are posting relatively divergent? Is it really just different metas?
2. Why are there so many win-cons in these decks? Is it because you are afraid of going to time...? 2 Morphlings used to be enough.
3. Cryptic Command as at least a 2 of should theoretically be bonkers in this deck as it is a really cool late game card. To the people not running it: are you 1. confident in your counterbalance answers and 2. worried about Daze?
4. Why do some lists not run Morphling? You have more islands than any other deck and he is almost impossible to remove. Is this because he is not as good as he once was or is it an availability issue?

1. People have different opinions. There's little consensus on what cards are optimal. Meta has something to do with it, but the differences are due to preferences on cards, e.g. some people need to play Brainstorm to make themselves feel like they're playing a blue control deck, and some people don't need to play BS.

2. So far, I've seen onlt 2-3 win cons in decks, so I haven't seen any multitude of win cons. I've seen Morphling, CtS, Oona, Meloku, Rainbow Effreet, etc.

3. Is Command pretty powerful in the late game? Let's dissect each effect. The fog ability isn't that much of a Time Walk for MUC since we don't run a threatbased like Faeries to capitalize on the tempo. Furthermore, sometimes you just need to bounce something quickly and paying 4 for a bounce effect is too clunky, regardless of CB. I know people have Cryptic COmmand has been mentioned before in this thread, and I imagined people stopped mentioning it is because they found out for themselves that it wasn't that good in MUC (I tried Command too and found out for myself.)

4. People have been playing with CtS lately. I think people have been trying that because a) it guarantees inevitability against counters b) you swarm the opponent c) it's cheaper than Morphling IRL.

[KillemallCFH]

Morphling dies to mass removal (i.e. Deed, WoG, or your own Nevvy's Disks, if you play them) and nontargetted removal (Edicts). You run very few wincons, so you want them to be as resilient to removal as possible. Frankly, I've never understood why you would run Morphling. Why play a creature that can die to mass removal/edicts when you can play one that, you know, doesn't.

Call the Skybreaker is amazing as a wincon. Unless you are playing against 30creatureremoval.dec, you are almost certainly running more lands than they are creature removal + counterspells. Having to waste resources to ensure that your wincon lands is something you really don't want to have to do. With CtS, it doesn't matter if they counter it or remove it; you'll pretty much always have more coming. Yeah, if your meta for some reason has a lot of MD grave hate, it isn't that good, but I don't see that happening too often.

[easyrider]

Hi, this is my first post in the forums. I'm relatively new to legacy. I've only been playing for about two months or so, so sorry if some of my questions seem stupid or if something I ask ask has already been answered.

I'm still working on a list that I like, but here's where it is right now:

23 Lands
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
14 Island

2 Win Conditions
1 Call the Skybreaker
1 Morphling

Everything Else
4 Fact or Fiction
3 Back to Basics
2 Cryptic Commands
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Engineered Explosives

Looking over some of you guys' lists two cards that stick out are AK and Cryptic Command. I will admit that Command has usually been underwhelming. I've been thinking about Cunning Wish. Has this already been dismissed?
I haven't really tried anything else in AKs spots, but they have been pretty good. I like it better than Impulse because I would rather have more cards than card selection, especially late game with CtS, and because Brainstorm doesn't net me cards. They're also decent with FoF. Is it stupid to be playing them? I don't like AV for pretty much the same reasons as Serginho.

I also have a question regarding the Stax matchup. I've never played against a competent Stax player and I can't really play the deck well myself. Do I just need to counter their Smokestack and Armageddon effects? Nothing else seems like it does anything against Mono U.

[raharu]

Wish builds are played, but they have a habit of making me go wtf with the targets. Like, a lone StP, an Extirpate or two, maybe a Diabolic Edict, and we're done... Why not just play it main if you're splashing for it, amirite?

Personally, I don't like AK without Intuition. That's just me. My ideal draw configuration is 4 BS, 4 Impulse, and 4 FoF. Impulse sometimes gets cut for business, though. I could see AK in place of Impulse, but the first two are seriously underwhelming and I don't like having to wait 15odd turns to see a sizeable return from a set of cards. I'm also not a fan of getting caught in a weird spot with my pants down and being forced into a hand of Island, Island, AK, FoW, Back to Basics, Counterspell or something on the first turn, and need to FoW something. If one is RfG, you're never ever happy.

[jthanatos]

The problem I have with AK is that you have to hit three of them before it even equals the card drawing of Think Twice. Between Fetchstorm and FoF you already have some serious drawing power, I personally would suggest more counter magic to compliment the B2Bs.

I have found mana leak particularly good for either locking down an opponent late game, or bluffing the b2b in hand. If you feel you need more cards to feed skybreaker, give Think Twice a try.

[Misplayer]

About the win-con discussion: One of the most troublesome things about playing MUC is that B2B often does not create a hard lock (duh) and many decks can recover via Grip and other things. I've found that if you cannot start applying pressure while your opponent is searching for answers they'll be able to fight through your hate. Morphling shines because you can put your opponent on a clock that requires mass removal (i.e. usually a substantial mana investment) that is tough to do under B2B. The last time I brought out this deck I was able to beat with turn 6/7 Morphlings while my opponent struggled under B2B (vs. RGB AggroLoam), or even got there with Sowers against Belcher. If I had only CtS in those matchups it would have been much more likely that my opponent was able to recover in the time it took me to apply pressure.

Additionally, the only decks that play sweepers like that are Landstill and the Rock, both of which usually eat it to Back to Basics.

For reference, here's the current threats I'm running:
3x Sower of Temptation
2x Morphling
1x Call the Skybreaker

Plus 2 Jace in the side for control matchups.

----
As an aside, what does MUC have to combat AdN-style combo decks? I found out the hard way that I had nothing to help me out in this matchup, and when you're applying NO pressure (see above) they have plenty of time to sculpt their hate-filled hand and Ad Nauseam themselves for 15 life worth of cards. Any suggestions?

[KillemallCFH]

...turn 6/7 Morphlings... If I had only CtS in those matchups it would have been much more likely that my opponent was able to recover in the time it took me to apply pressure.Huh?

A turn 7 CtS has the same clock as a turn 6 Morphling, and is a turn faster than a turn 7 Morphling. This is, of course, assuming you have a land in hand, but that shouldn't be a problem considering the amount of lands you play and the amount CA/CQ spells MUC runs. Now, granted, Morphling is (kinda) immune to removal, but against the MU you specified (Nonwhite Aggro Loam), this is mostly a moot point.

@Storm matchup: There really isn't much we can do here. Try to draw enough counterspells to disrupt them long enough to drop whatever wincon you are running. Arcane Lab and/or Chalice out of the board could help a lot, if you really fear storm combo that much. Still, they can just sculpt a perfect hand, bounce your lock pieces, and go off.

[GGoober]

Here is my MUC(art) list.

Lands: 23
1 Academy Ruins
22 Island

Counters: 12
4 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

Board-control: 14
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Powder Keg
2 Oblivion Stone
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Back to Basic

Draw: 8
3 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Fact or Fiction
2 Gifts Ungiven

Threats: 3
2 Morphling
1 Call the Skybreaker


I am enjoying the list a lot. I only run 3 FoF since Gifts acts as the 4-5 FoF. In this build, Gifts is sometimes superior to FoF. I often Gifts into:
Shackles + Ruins + Morphling + FoF, leaving my opponent to most likely discard Ruins + FoF or Ruins + Morphling. Gifts into FoF is pretty sick end of turn.

The only thing I dislike about the deck is that it isn't the style of Draw-go, and requires much experience with knowing what the deck can do. The deck works great once it hits 4 mana. The hardest plays are on turn 2-3 where you have to be sure whether you want to keep mana open for a counter or land a Keg/B2B/Shackle. Usually when going first, I'll keep 2 mana open for Counterspell and see what decks they play with. If they're playing aggressive aggro, I'll land Keg next turn and allow a few threats to pass through. This deck basically recovers after turn 4 via card advantage, and I think the hardest skill needed to pilot the MUC(art) list is on turns 3-5.

I tested Oblivion Stone v.s. Nev Disk for the board sweeper and liked Oblivion Stone much better. It is costly to activate at 8, but most of the time, I had to Gifts to find Disk/Stone, which occurs on turns 5-6. So I figured that if I gifted on turn 7, I can activate Stone on 8 without any trouble (assuming no stifle). Disk is just too risky leaving it in play. Furthermore, the testing with Oblivion Stone has shown that dropping a turn earlier on turn 3 is important in controlling what your opponents play, and giving you an idea what they have in their hand. One of the fun plays is to land OStone, and play B2B, protect B2B and then blow it up.

I am sad that I can't find space for the Sowers main. I have 2 Sowers in the Sideboard against heavier aggro decks, namely Aggro Loam etc.

I do like this version of the deck so far. Kegs have been amazing against Dreadnoughts/goyfs etc, and destroy many key items such as Needles on Shackles, vials, and many other annoyances. Against combo, it is great against their resolved LEDs and Petals if they fail to go off. They answer Warren and Dredge tokens and feed to Thirst, recurrable via Ruins.

Morphling has always been great for me at turn 6. CtS is the ideal win-con but he's a turn slower, and he's GY dependent. Seriously, Relic is seeing play more often in many decks, and CtS is equally vulnerable to GY hate, opposing Kegs/EE, and many other removal. Morphling sticks hard and beats well. This deck has no problem against TA/Thresh since they run very little Threat (the only shroud threat they have, Mongoose, is taken care by Keg/Stone), and having a shackle + morphling is quite a bad board for the opponent. The new 7/11 Islandwalk, shroud, trample creature for 9 mana from Conflux seems very attractive, but IMO, he's too slow. I might play him to replace Call the Skybreaker. Not sure, but I've always loved CtS. It's been one of the few best win-cons in many tight matches. Putting 2 tokens grants you a 3 turn clock, which ends the game fast.

This version of the deck focuses on heavy card advantage. Ruins isn't needed at all, and to be honest, Gifting into Ruins + 3 other cards should be a play where you WANT ruins to be in your graveyard, netting you other cards that can be game-breaking. Ruins is win-more, and the deck works well without it. It's just there to scare your opponent into tossing that in the yard via Gifts/FoF.

[Misplayer]

Huh?

A turn 7 CtS has the same clock as a turn 6 Morphling, and is a turn faster than a turn 7 Morphling. This is, of course, assuming you have a land in hand, but that shouldn't be a problem considering the amount of lands you play and the amount CA/CQ spells MUC runs. Now, granted, Morphling is (kinda) immune to removal, but against the MU you specified (Nonwhite Aggro Loam), this is mostly a moot point.


I guess what I was trying to say that by running 2 Morphling/1 CtS the deck is much more effective at putting your opponent on a clock than 1 CtS. I don't think I could justify running more than one Call the Skybreaker anyway.

In the AggroLoam matchup I went turn 4 B2B, turn 5 Morphling, turn 6 Morphling, the game was over before I hit 7 Islands. He had his loam engine that game but wasn't able to get it going because he was dead. I understand this is a pretty rare occurence, but I was very grateful to have Morphlings in that game.

[mackaber]

I've mentioned this about a thousand times but Vendillion Clique is a really good and flexible SB spell which is particularly good versus Storm Combo and also shines versus Control decs (Play Clique in response to standstill, play clique when you have them B2B soft locked, play Clique EOT and draw out Force because they boarded out StP...). Also if I wanted to play this dec at a real tournament where I would most dfinetly expect AnT I'd board Chalice. Chalice 0 seems to be the way to go here since it often buys the time you need to either get chalice at 1 as well or draw a threat (Clique) or just have enough counters, but without both of these cards I'd say the MU is nigh unwinnable against a competent opponent and still pretty tough with both of them.

[Tangle.Wire]

So hi everyone, my first post in here..

It took 2 days to read the whole thread now and i wonder how many slots get wasted by additional win option as some people already said. I am playing this Decklist and it performs very (very,very) well:

Lands:

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
12 Island

Creatures:

1 Morphling
1 Meloku
1 Jace Beleren (i know its not a creature at all)

Spells:

3 Back to Basics
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Ancestral Vision
2 Fact or Fiction
2 Cunning Wish
4 Counterspell
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sensei's divining top

Sideboard:

1 Vedalken Shackles
4 Hydroblast
1 Extirpate
1 Echoing Truth
1 Meditate
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Rebuild
3 Propaganda
1 Engineered Explosives


Its kinda basic-build but i wonder how many lists got on place 1-10 with shackles, propaganda and back to basics + 3 or more creatures in the Maindeck. In my opinion its impossible to win for the MUC.decks if ur not able to handle fast threats of the opponent if your afraid to drop a morphling cause of Edicts, Deeds etc wait 1-2 turns to draw the Counter for answering and drop the morphling later u win in 4-5 turns anyway and u can also win with shackles by itself aslong u play against Decks which drop creatures.

The Goblin Matchup is kinda terrible at least with my list, i thought about chill a long time cause it can give u 1-2 extra turns till u drop propaganda which is the only really good answer against them. But as u guys figured out goblins lose popularity and the matchup wont get better till u run 8 or more spells only against red which is insane so i just left goblins behind and prepare against other decks.

I would like to talk about the right way of Carddraw for the "modern" MUC lists i am sure that brainstorms are a must as long as you play the fetchlands version of this deck but how about the Rest those cards should be left:

Fact or Fiction - 2 till 3?
Ancestral Visions - Lots of lists have 3 of them but i never played more than 2 in a game and it doesnt draw at the time u play it.
Ponder - Awesome, quick (even for a sorcery) nice with divining top
Accumulated Knowledge - not my favorite but very fruity with the Fact or Fictions.

Wonder how u guys feel about the drawing-choose for this deck. :rolleyes:

[Misplayer]

Fact or Fiction - 2 till 3?

4, without question. Fact or Fiction is one of the best draw spells in the format. I would not advise playing less than 4.

[Arsenal]

For permanent-based MUC, what have you guys been running in your board for the ANT/TES/FT matchup? I feel that permanent-based MUC has a lot of aggro/aggro-control hate cards maindecked (Propaganda, Powder Keg, Vedalken Shackles), but is unprepared to handle Storm in Game 1. I've been running Disrupt and Blue Element Blast to somewhat deal with Storm, but those two cards can be used for other matchups. I've seen CotV discussed, but nothing solid was made of it.

[GGoober]

For Perm-based MUC (MUCart), Powder keg handles their artifact acceleration of Warren tokens well. MUC has a pretty bad MU against Storm. My MUCart list runs 4 Kegs, 3 Relic main, which is sufficient hate to put up a good fight on T1. Relic screws up IGG-loops and makes Cabal Ritual a joke lol. Keg is not bad, and good at killing Warren tokens, or stop them from dropping acceleration if they cannot combo off.

I'm thinking that in the sideboard, Divert would be useful. I play 3 Diverts in my Dreadstalker SB and they entirely humiliate Orim's Chant :P

[jazzykat]

I am not sure how MUC is not very good vs. something like ANT. Is it that between duress and chant you don't have enough counters to stop them?

[Arsenal]

Permanent-based MUC runs alot of chaff Game 1 versus Storm; Vedalken Shackles does nothing, Back to Basics is semi-effective, but not the gamestopper it is against other decks, Propaganda does nothing, Powder Keg is semi-effective, but not really as the Storm player can just hold everything back until he's ready to go off, and running absolutely nothing that puts pressure on the opponent early gives Storm a lot of time to sculpt, protect, then go off.

[Soulles]

For permanent-based MUC, what have you guys been running in your board for the ANT/TES/FT matchup? I feel that permanent-based MUC has a lot of aggro/aggro-control hate cards maindecked (Propaganda, Powder Keg, Vedalken Shackles), but is unprepared to handle Storm in Game 1. I've been running Disrupt and Blue Element Blast to somewhat deal with Storm, but those two cards can be used for other matchups. I've seen CotV discussed, but nothing solid was made of it.

In the last tournament i played, i played versus 2x ANT (one match versus the Dutch Champion)

I won them both.

My counter suite was,

4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
3x Spell Snare
4x Stifle. (or Force Spike but i did some expirment replacing Force Spike with Stifle)

Stifle works wonders, it allows you preventing them not fetching the right colors and Back to Basics can win you the game easyily.

A clock is also important, even if it is a 2/2 creature like Kira or Sower.

Postboard i run Chalice of the Void 4x. Chalcie on 0, is usually win. And of cource you can follow it up by a Chalice on 2.

In the previous year, from all the TES and ANT decks i have faced in tournaments (around 10-15) i only lost once. I consider the matchup favoured for me.

[GGoober]

Soulles, just curious if you ran Stifles main or postboard. I'm contemplating on playing Stifles main. My ANT/combo matchup isn't great since I don't have Stifles and I play perm-based MUC. I have no doubt combo is favorable MU for you since Stifle + 12 Hard counter = gg for combo.

[Arsenal]

Aside from Stifling their fetchlands (which TES doesn't play), what good does it really do versus Storm combo? Assuming their using Ad Nauseam to go off, they will almost always flip protection during their reveals, then use the protection to negate that Stifle you've been saving for the lethal Tendrils.

The key is to stop their engine, not their kill card.

[Tangle.Wire]

So how about Disrupt? (sideboard) i had lot of games where the combo players just didnt try to break down their combo after countering a orim's chant or another spell just only by a disrupt and it cantrips too but u will only need it against combo or in my opion for the control matchup against landstill, mirrormatch or maybe discard/LD decks but those are not the main problem.

For myself there is no clue to play any of the "pay :1: " counters in the maindeck cause in 90% of the games they become dead cards on turn 3 or later even with force of will. So disrupt would be better than daze and force spike cause u got better spells to handle creatures or permanents but those solutions cant handle the instands and sorceries of your opponent so disrupt can bring the right change after sideboarding.

In my opinion if you really go nuts by combodecks u should try disrupt/arcane laboratory against storm combos or the stifle but since stifle can handle storm perfectly it cant handle orim's chant, Ad Nauseaum or duress which keeps the comboplayer on the top.

:eyebrow: => Try to survive till u got 3 Lands (in fact MUC depends on 3 Mana spells ^^) and drop Arcane Laboratory

[Arsenal]

I've been running Disrupt and found it to be okay. I've been looking into Divert and/or CotV. Hadn't really thought too hard about Arcane Laboratory. What are the generally accepted SB cards against Storm combo?

[Bahamuth]

Seriously people, Chalice is all you need against ANT. Their whole damn deck costs 1. Play it at 1, not at 0. You instantly win the game if it's on one and you have a counter left. All they can do is hope to draw into their bounce spell, which is unlikely because they can't cantrip.

[4eak]

@ jazzykat


I am not sure how MUC is not very good vs. something like ANT. Is it that between duress and chant you don't have enough counters to stop them?

The main reason MUC generally has a poor match against competent storm combo players is because MUC lacks a serious clock. Storm doesn't have to win fast against MUC (most builds at least), and that provides ANT/TES opportunities to sandbag, ramp-up, and test your hand every turn or so for weakness. If Duress shows a clean hand or Orim's resolves, then you just auto-lose.

MUC builds that do have a better storm combo match in the main are moving towards Aggro/Control and aren't focusing on pure or generic control. Soulles list is a good example of this principle. The fact is: he has a much better clock, and so he doesn't need to sustain the same control for as many turns as other builds of MUC.

Basically, Thresh is just a control deck like Landstill or MUC with early fat creatures, better 1 for 1's, and softlocks that buy them just enough time to win before an opponent recovers. Kira/Sower is step towards that mentality, and it is probably one of the best reasons to play his version over others. Perhaps it is easier to proportionately improve a control decks clock than its control features in this format.


@ Bahamuth


Seriously people, Chalice is all you need against ANT. Their whole damn deck costs 1. Play it at 1, not at 0. You instantly win the game if it's on one and you have a counter left. All they can do is hope to draw into their bounce spell, which is unlikely because they can't cantrip.

I disagree, you still need a better clock against ANT--adding chalice isn't enough to make this favorable for most builds of MUC. And, placing Chalice for 1 isn't always the best call, especially if you open with Chalice on the play. Chalice at 0 neuters Chrome Mox, LED, and Petal (and sometimes oddities like PoN). That hits the engine itself, making it harder to cast AdN, but most importantly, it makes mana generation post-AdN resolution almost impossible. The zero-cost artifacts are pretty much the bread-winning mana generators post AdN, and with Chalice at 0, they have no chance of winning early against you.

I put Chalice on 1 and 0 at nearly equal amounts.




peace,
4eak

[bowvamp]

@ jazzykat



The main reason MUC generally has a poor match against competent storm combo players is because MUC lacks a serious clock. Storm doesn't have to win fast against MUC (most builds at least), and that provides ANT/TES opportunities to sandbag, ramp-up, and test your hand every turn or so for weakness. If Duress shows a clean hand or Orim's resolves, then you just auto-lose.

MUC builds that do have a better storm combo match in the main are moving towards Aggro/Control and aren't focusing on pure or generic control. Soulles list is a good example of this principle. The fact is: he has a much better clock, and so he doesn't need to sustain the same control for as many turns as other builds of MUC.

Basically, Thresh is just a control deck like Landstill or MUC with early fat creatures, better 1 for 1's, and softlocks that buy them just enough time to win before an opponent recovers. Kira/Sower is step towards that mentality, and it is probably one of the best reasons to play his version over others. Perhaps it is easier to proportionately improve a control decks clock than its control features in this format.


@ Bahamuth



I disagree, you still need a better clock against ANT--adding chalice isn't enough to make this favorable for most builds of MUC. And, placing Chalice for 1 isn't always the best call, especially if you open with Chalice on the play. Chalice at 0 neuters Chrome Mox, LED, and Petal (and sometimes oddities like PoN). That hits the engine itself, making it harder to cast AdN, but most importantly, it makes mana generation post-AdN resolution almost impossible. The zero-cost artifacts are pretty much the bread-winning mana generators post AdN, and with Chalice at 0, they have no chance of winning early against you.

I put Chalice on 1 and 0 at nearly equal amounts.




peace,
4eak
You can't set a chalice at 1 after a chalice at 0...
I believe that the best thing vs. storm combo in MUC would be Arcane Lab, not sure you guys use it, but it's been pwnin' get-togethers and takin' names where I live.

[4eak]

@ bowvamp


You can't set a chalice at 1 after a chalice at 0...

Chalice at 0 will counter spells with converted mana cost of 0.

When you play Chalice at 1 on the stack, it has a converted mana cost of 2.

You can play a Chalice at 1 with a Chalice@0 in play.




peace,
4eak

[bowvamp]

Oh wow, ur right! lol, thanks so much! So, is arcane lab the best or is there better? With a lab in play they can't acheive a storm count!

[Bahamuth]

@ Bahamuth



I disagree, you still need a better clock against ANT--adding chalice isn't enough to make this favorable for most builds of MUC. And, placing Chalice for 1 isn't always the best call, especially if you open with Chalice on the play. Chalice at 0 neuters Chrome Mox, LED, and Petal (and sometimes oddities like PoN). That hits the engine itself, making it harder to cast AdN, but most importantly, it makes mana generation post-AdN resolution almost impossible. The zero-cost artifacts are pretty much the bread-winning mana generators post AdN, and with Chalice at 0, they have no chance of winning early against you.

I put Chalice on 1 and 0 at nearly equal amounts.




peace,
4eak

You realise Chalice at one stops: Brainstorm, Ponder, Top (might be in play already), Chant, Duress, Dark Ritual and Mystical Tutor. Especially Chant and Duress are absolutely crucial in their plan of beating you. If you can shut off this protection, all you have to do is FoW/whatever his AdN and you win. The inability for them to cantrip is also huge, especially on the play, but still on the draw. Also, ANT doesn't rely on Petal and LED all that much. It has Cabal Ritual, which gives loads of mana as well. If you play a Chalice at 0, you're just waiting for the opponent to throw some Chants/Duresses at you, cast a Cabal Ritual and proceed to AdN into more Dark and Cabal Rituals. Even more so, the deck can win through the IGG loop much easier when facing just a Chalice at 0. 2 Cabal Rituals is enough.

[SuperBean]

As an experienced ANT player, you do need more then a Chalice at one and a Chalice at Zero. We can just wish for shattering spree and your Chalices are gone. Also, we do pack 2-4 Duress's depending on what version you are playing against.

[Jason]

I do think if you are putting Vendilion Clique in the sideboard as anti-combo, Arcane Laboratory would be better. It costs the same. Storm combos won't be able to get rid of it the turn it comes down most of the time because they will have to Wish for an answer (the exception to this might be Solidarity, but I'm pretty sure Clique or no Clique, Solidarity wins). This means they are wasting their one spell on a Wish target, you will untap, and the next turn be ready with untapped lands to counter the spell.

Also, for Chalice of the Void, setting it at 1 is not an automatic game loss (but we do run a lot of disruption so it will be unlikely they will get a wish off), so the difference between Chalice and Lab is one mana/one turn. But is that relevant? The storm decks are going to need to go off through protection (probably multiple forms unless it is turn 1 or 2 or sometimes 3), so how many times can the decks go off for lethal before you can hit Lab on your turn 3? I goldfish these combo decks with protection on turn 1 almost never, turn 2 rarely, turn 3 sometimes, and turn 4 is about 50/50 maybe less. This is certainly within a range to get Arcane Laboratory down before the other player goes off most of the time. Chalice can definitely mess them up, and it does come down a turn earlier which isn't huge but can be relevant, so it's up in the air for me.

I'm not saying Arcane Laboratory should be in the board; it definitely looks better than Vendilion Clique. And seeing as they cannot win with Arcane Laboratory in play (and they can win with Chalice of the Void in play), it looks slightly better than Chalice as well. However, Chalice can be brought in against other decks that use many 1-costing spells, so it is not limited to combo-only like Arcane Laboratory would be.

[Jason]

I'm also surprised no one has said anything about Telemin Performance from Conflux. It seems like a fairly solid card.

:3: :u: :u:
Sorcery
Target opponent reveals cards from the top of his or her library until he or she reveals a creature card. That player puts all noncreature cards revealed this way into his or her graveyard, then you put the creature card into play under your control.

It seems to say "win target landstill game" or "hope target Solidarity player doesn't go off in response" or "steal target 4/5 or 5/5 flier". It is expensive but comes online only one turn after Sower of Temptation/Vedalken Shackles which doesn't seem like it is game over. Sure, it's bad against heavy aggro decks and Ichorid, but most of the cards in the deck are less than optimal in this matchup anyway. I think it definitely strengthens our other matchups though, seeing as most decks run ~8-12 creatures, most of which are good enough to steal and stay stolen.

I think it is a decent card that is worthy of having a 2-of in addition to maybe 3 Shackles or 3 Sowers or some combination of the three cards.

[4eak]

@ bowvamp


Oh wow, ur right! lol, thanks so much! So, is arcane lab the best or is there better? With a lab in play they can't acheive a storm count!

Lab is good, but it is hardly the best. Lab costs 3 mana, and that is a ton for what you get. They aren't going to be casting more than 1 spell a turn until they are just about to go off anyways. Lab is easily bounced and it also does nothing in the early game, which means it might not merit play at all.

Unless you play man-lands, then Lab locks you out too. If you dropped lab against me while I was playing ANT, I'd mystical/storm/ponder for bounce some turn, you try to play a win-condition on turn 15, 20, or 30, I bounce in response, and you can't counter, right? Then I win next turn. I have a ton of mana in play, I chain duress/orim you, cast AdN or IGG and win.


@ Bahamuth


You realise Chalice at one stops: Brainstorm, Ponder, Top (might be in play already), Chant, Duress, Dark Ritual and Mystical Tutor.

I know exactly what Chalice at 1 stops. I play both decks plenty, and I even said I still cast Chalice at 1 very often in this match. The point is: I don't ALWAYS cast chalice at 1 because it isn't necessarily the best play to make.

ANT is often just as dangerous on the draw as they are on the play. Depending on the build, drawing the 8th card makes 1st turn protected and unprotected wins more likely by about 20-25%. That is a serious problem for MUC. All too often, ANT is perfectly willing to throw their opener at you on turn 1, both protected and unprotected, because they aren't scared to fizzle or meet FoW because they'll usually draw enough to disrupt and try again long before you can mount pressure to win. A majority of the time, if you don't play Chalice for 0 on the play, you can't answer a turn 1 kill. Chalice@0 mitigates the difficult to answer early wins, and MUC needs the virtual tempo. Chalice@0 makes for consistent and calculable control of early games against a deck that can sporadically just win on turns 1 and 2, and it is a reliable means to live a few more turns to find even more answers and disruption.

MUC on the play, opening a hand with Chalice, should almost always drop Chalice for 0 against ANT.

Does this mean CotV@1 is not worth it? No. If I open:

2x Land, Chalice, Force Spike, FoW, Blue card

Here I will always wait to drop Chalice@1. Most hands won't be this amazing, and in most opening hands with Chalice, I'll drop it for zero on the play (and often on the draw), because I can't answer a t1 one kill, especially protected.

Chalice at 0 on the play buys time at a very critical point in the game, and it is worth the opportunity cost of not playing CotV@1 in order to hugely mitigate ANT's excellent turn 1 and 2 win percentages. CotV@0 helps you live to see turn 3, a turn you might not have seen without playing it for zero. Mid-game, Chalice@1 is clearly the best option, but what to set Chalice at in the early game it is not as cut'n'dry as you have said. Chalice@0 is often the correct choice on turn 1.





peace,
4eak

[Soulles]

Rob, i have to disagree with you. You have to play Chalice on 0 on your first turn vs ANT or TES (if it is on the draw or go, it won't matter)

90% of the times, TES and ANT combos off through LED > Tutor to Kill or ANT. If you stop the tutor engine, you buy allot of time to sculp your hand, put a threat and maybe draw a second Chalice to put it on 1. You can't wait 2 turns unless you have 3 Force of Wills or something.

As for the stifle discussion. I didn't play Stifle mainboard to increase my win chance vs combo. I just did it to fight Fetch Land, because in Holland more people are playing basics and i am trying to improve my lovely card "Back to Basics"

I am just saying, vs ANT stifle does help allot!


Soulles, just curious if you ran Stifles main or postboard. I'm contemplating on playing Stifles main. My ANT/combo matchup isn't great since I don't have Stifles and I play perm-based MUC. I have no doubt combo is favorable MU for you since Stifle + 12 Hard counter = gg for combo.
I played them mainboard that day. Run 4 Chalice sideboard and maybe 1-2 Mana maze if you are really afraid and have a heavy combo meta.

[Bahamuth]

I'd easily take the chances of my opponent getting a turn 1 kill for having such a powerfull effect against ANT. Seriously, ANT can go through almost any number of counters if they have enough time. They will just save up for a hand consisting of something like 5 protection, a Cabal Ritual and an AdN. MUC can barely win this match on the long run.

Also, the chances of turn 1 wins in ANT aren't that big at all. And even then, many ANT players will consider not trying to win turn 1 if they can, since you already have one island in play, upping the chances of you being able to counter significantly, and possibly over 50%. Given that ANT can, as I said above, win in the late game, it would be a good play to wait, as far as I'm concerned.

[Soulles]

I'd easily take the chances of my opponent getting a turn 1 kill for having such a powerfull effect against ANT. Seriously, ANT can go through almost any number of counters if they have enough time. They will just save up for a hand consisting of something like 5 protection, a Cabal Ritual and an AdN. MUC can barely win this match on the long run.

Also, the chances of turn 1 wins in ANT aren't that big at all. And even then, many ANT players will consider not trying to win turn 1 if they can, since you already have one island in play, upping the chances of you being able to counter significantly, and possibly over 50%. Given that ANT can, as I said above, win in the late game, it would be a good play to wait, as far as I'm concerned.

You still risk that your Chalice becomes Duressed when you wait. I am not saying your strategy is totally wrong but Chalice on 0 still helps allot!

Someone pls tell if i am wrong, but TES and ANT usually goes off through LED. They need LED . If they do it without, you are just facing a godhand and there for you need Force of Will x2 more than Chalice.

[FlavaSava]

Hi,
@Soulles:How looks your build with Stifle in it?
I am not sure about my list. I think cards which i defintely play are:
4 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Fact or Fiction
4 other Carddraw (ancestral vison/impulse)
4 Vedalken Shalkes
4 Board Sweeper
2 Morphling
1 Meloku

[Tangle.Wire]

Hi,
@Soulles:How looks your build with Stifle in it?
I am not sure about my list. I think cards which i defintely play are:
4 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Fact or Fiction
4 other Carddraw (ancestral vison/impulse)
4 Vedalken Shalkes
4 Board Sweeper
2 Morphling
1 Meloku

You make my day ^^

U're around to waste 4-5 Slots just by playing 4 Shackles + 4 Sweepers

I dont know which Board sweeper your going to use but if you play back to basics (what you really should do) and shackles in the main deck the only good choice will be powder keg or better explosives + fetchlands so a "draw engine" around like this would be enough:

3 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
3 AC Vision or Ponder
1 Senseis divining top

I also woul think about cunning wish which is really fruity in this deck no matter if the "permanent MUC" or "non permanent MUC). I also dont understand why u wanna play 3 creatures to finish off if ur going to play 4 shackles in my opinion 2-3 Creatures + 2 shackles is enough at least if you have a agressive meta u should play 2 creatures and 3 shackles.

=> Also i dont agree with you guys by playing 4 fact or fiction its a very strong card no question but unless u throw 1 or 2 into force of will u are going to dig up your graveyard, 2-3 FoF are ok but even for the lategame AC Vision will do a better job. I think 2 FoF are a must but 3-4 is going to overkill yourself, at least you won't be able to play FoF as often as u got 1 mana open to cast a Vision or Ponder :really:

[Misplayer]

You still risk that your Chalice becomes Duressed when you wait. I am not saying your strategy is totally wrong but Chalice on 0 still helps allot!

Someone pls tell if i am wrong, but TES and ANT usually goes off through LED. They need LED . If they do it without, you are just facing a godhand and there for you need Force of Will x2 more than Chalice.

I'd take the chance that Chalice get Duressed because setting it at one counters ALL their protection (Chant, Duress, REB). Then you can just sit on counters to hit relevant things like Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish/Ad Nauseam/non-Wipe Away bounce. If they get the nuts and go t1/t2 kill and you don't have FoW, so be it. How many decks can stop that anyway?

That said, how many sideboard slots are worth dedicating to Chalice?

[Jason]

I'd take the chance that Chalice get Duressed because setting it at one counters ALL their protection (Chant, Duress, REB). Then you can just sit on counters to hit relevant things like Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish/Ad Nauseam/non-Wipe Away bounce. If they get the nuts and go t1/t2 kill and you don't have FoW, so be it. How many decks can stop that anyway?


Not ALL the protection. You'd still have to worry about Vexing Shusher if the deck has them in the board (although I'm seeing it less and less), which isn't a big deal at all thanks to Blue Elemental Blast. But yes I agree Chalice at 1 is a huge problem for the ANT players; however, we have the problem of getting the Chalice down before they have the opportunity to make use of some of their relevant spells. Plus, they can simply Mystical Tutor for Wipe Away in response. Or they can still potentially win with it in play and not removing it - although it's much much more difficult because we have counterspells.

So obviously if we play Chalice at 1 and the opponent has no response (no Mystical Tutuor, no Brainstorm) and we haven't been Duress'ed then we have held them back significantly, but what honestly are the odds they won't Duress us and then respond to our Chalice of the Void with a Mystical Tutor or Brainstorm to dig for an answer to the Chalice?

[Soulles]

Hi,
@Soulles:How looks your build with Stifle in it?
I am not sure about my list. I think cards which i defintely play are:
4 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Fact or Fiction
4 other Carddraw (ancestral vison/impulse)
4 Vedalken Shalkes
4 Board Sweeper
2 Morphling
1 Meloku


I don't post my decklist on this board anymore. I usually get spit on when i do that.

As for the Chalice discussion, to each his own. But what i said comes from experience of cource and not thin air. Do as you like.

[Tangle.Wire]

I don't post my decklist on this board anymore. I usually get spit on when i do that.

As for the Chalice discussion, to each his own. But what i said comes from experience of cource and not thin air. Do as you like.

It was not supposed to be against you, but in my opinion u just play some cards like shackle too much if u still keep winning with it its alright but less slots means less solutions but as i said i dont even know the komplete build or the meta, if its and creature/aggro meta maybe 4 shackles are the right way to go on. :frown:

[gieli0]

It was not supposed to be against you, but in my opinion u just play some cards like shackle too much if u still keep winning with it its alright but less slots means less solutions but as i said i dont even know the komplete build or the meta, if its and creature/aggro meta maybe 4 shackles are the right way to go on. :frown:

our meta is:
dreadstill
goblins
landstill 3-4 color
argo loam
eva green
tes
ant
treshhold

[Soulles]

our meta is:
dreadstill
goblins
landstill 3-4 color
argo loam
eva green
tes
ant
treshhold

You are forgetting MUC. In Holland and Belgium, MUC is a DtB.

I think 3 shackles is fine in addition with 4 sowers. Shackles wins games on its own. But i don't think 4 is necessary.

[Misplayer]

@Jason: It's true that they can win through Chalice at 1 (the deck would be pretty awful if it couldn't). Almost any deck has a hypothetical answer to any kind of hate, but even so I think Chalice is MUC's best protection against AdN combo. The tough part is applying pressure so they don't have time to dig up an answer.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

@Jason: It's true that they can win through Chalice at 1 (the deck would be pretty awful if it couldn't). Almost any deck has a hypothetical answer to any kind of hate, but even so I think Chalice is MUC's best protection against AdN combo. The tough part is applying pressure so they don't have time to dig up an answer.

Driving home from playing at my friend's house, I was wondering why no one seems to maindeck Chalice of the Void in MUC. Can anyone help me out with this? It seems that it only really hits a small handful of the cards we maindeck: Spell Snare, Brainstorm (in the lists that run it), Ponder (again, those that run it)... Is there something I'm not getting as to why Chalice isn't worth it for us to put in the starting string? It seems to me like it's the level of evil disruption that just randomly fucks with decks that aren't built around it, I can't really see a lot of downside to it in this deck.

Why does no one use Chalice as main-deck disruption to keep us alive until the mid/late game??:confused:

I have a very similar question about the Counter/Top lock... I realize this one would take a bit more modifying the deck around it, because the curve of MUC tends to go towards the high end, and you really want to be playing cards with CMC = 1 thru 3, maybe thru 4, with Counter/Top... But has anyone tried this? Do we just end up looking like Landstill if we try to run Counter/Top??

*I'm trying to get a decklist together for a GPT qualifier tournament in a couple weeks, so I'd really appreciate anyone's advice.

[Tangle.Wire]

Driving home from playing at my friend's house, I was wondering why no one seems to maindeck Chalice of the Void in MUC. Can anyone help me out with this? It seems that it only really hits a small handful of the cards we maindeck: Spell Snare, Brainstorm (in the lists that run it), Ponder (again, those that run it)... Is there something I'm not getting as to why Chalice isn't worth it for us to put in the starting string? It seems to me like it's the level of evil disruption that just randomly fucks with decks that aren't built around it, I can't really see a lot of downside to it in this deck.

Why does no one use Chalice as main-deck disruption to keep us alive until the mid/late game??:confused:

I have a very similar question about the Counter/Top lock... I realize this one would take a bit more modifying the deck around it, because the curve of MUC tends to go towards the high end, and you really want to be playing cards with CMC = 1 thru 3, maybe thru 4, with Counter/Top... But has anyone tried this? Do we just end up looking like Landstill if we try to run Counter/Top??

*I'm trying to get a decklist together for a GPT qualifier tournament in a couple weeks, so I'd really appreciate anyone's advice.


Chalice in the maindeck wont be that strong, cause you need to play it turn 1-2 and u wont be able to protect it while playing unless u want to play force of will (or daze if u run it which isnt that good at all) just tu have a chalice which still eats hate very quick. I agree with the Sideboard tech against combo or maybe Decks like Zoo but chalice just istn good enough for the MUC maindeck.

The counterbalance engine is a nice way to f*ck up your opponent but it needs 5+ Slots and only works well if u got the top+counterbalance and aslong your running fact or fiction, shackles, back to basics, disks, morphling etc u wont have the wrong mana curve for the counterbalance. Yes you could fix it but the best way to do this is playing a faerie/fish build with them or the Dreadnought version but this will throw you far away from MUC :rolleyes:

[Misplayer]

I was wondering why no one seems to maindeck Chalice of the Void in MUC

I believe Kadaj has suggested this as protection for Sower of Temptation. Using it for disruption is pretty hit or miss because at earliest it comes down turn 2, and that's if you want to walk it into Daze. The decks that can abuse Chalice can play it turn 1 with extra mana for Daze. I suppose it could be worth testing though.

[GGoober]

Hey guys, need some help here. I was scorned for running Relic MD and my Legacy mates said to run SDT MD instead in perm-based MUC(art). I have my reasons and love for Relic, and I reasoned that as much as SDT sticks and makes games a ton more consistent, Relic single-handedly kills so many decks (aggro loam/ichorid for sure). It's true that Relic simply cantrips against a lot of other decks out there, but the fact that this gem can win some matchups on game 1 is not to be scoffed it.

Is it worth running it MD over SDT, which helps in all games but doesn't destroy certain decks that Relic does? In other words, is it worth putting Relic to steal wins or play SDT to secure better gameplays?

I've done some testing with Traumatic Visions (from Conflux) and I must say I'm liking the card more and more. As shitty it seems on paper, in actual play, it's been amazing in securing my turn by turn land drop until I hit 5 mana. It's a pretty good card to consider in perm-based MUC which doesn't seek to counter everything, but rather let some spells through and blow up the board and start gaining control after turn 5.

Just a thought.

[Misplayer]

I piloted MUC to a 3-0-3 finish at a 36(??) player event in Manchester, CT yesterday. Here’s what I played:

23 Island

3 Sower of Temptation
2 Morphling
1 Call the Skybreaker

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare

4 Fact or Fiction
4 Ancestral Vision

4 Back to Basics
4 Powder Keg
3 Vedalken Shackles

SB:
3 BEB
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Propaganda
2 Jace Beleren
3 Pithing Needle

Round 1 – Michael with Goyf Sligh
Game 1 – He opens with mountain, Figure of Destiny. It goes downhill from there.
Game 2 – I bring in 3 Blasts, 3 Chalice, 3 Needle, -4 B2B, -1 CtS, -3 Sower, -1 Ancestral Vision. He lands Fanantic, gets in 3 times with it and bolts me to 14 before I land Shackles, he sacrifices Fanatic when I try to take it, then he hits about 15 consecutive land drops, while I do not much except play Keg keeping it at 1. He eventually plays a Figure of Destiny. I grab a 1/1 with Shackles and go to beats. He goes for Goyf next turn (juh?), I keg away Figure, take his goyf, play morphling and win in short order.
Game 3 – We are dreadfully close to time. He gets Fanatic x2 + Figure, I get Needle on Figure, beats me to 13 + Magma Jet to 11. I Force another Jet to 10. Keg his guys but take 2 from Fanatics. Land Chalice at 1. He gets Pyrostatic Pillar. I get burned down to 4 and he has a threshed Barbarian Ring in play. Time. I play Chalice at 2. Draw.

0-0-1

Round 2 – Mike with UWb Landstill
Game 1 – I had basically had the nuts this game. A resolved B2B makes it hard for him to operate. He eventually gets 1 Island, 2 Plains and 1 Swamp, allowing him to cast most spells in his deck. I have counters for his Vindicates and he was off black for most of the game thanks to B2B. I finally get to 9 Islands so I can Call the Skybreaker with Counterspell backup. He swords. I retrace a few turns later. He goes for EE at 3 the next turn, but does not have the 2 to activate and I’m holding Keg so I let it go. Swing him to 11 and Keg away EE & my token. I somehow counter all of his relevant spells, I think it helped that he went for Force on FoF and other spells instead of using it to push through his Vindicates. He fetches to 10, I retrace and end it.
Game 2 – +2 Jace, +3 Pithing Needle, -3 Sower, -1 Shackles, -1 AV. This was by far the worst I drew all day. I’m foggy on the details but I know I resolved Needle on Explosives, B2B x2, and Jace. I’m ramping Jace and get it to 7 counters when he plays Vindicate on Needle and says “if this doesn’t resolve I might cry”. I Force, he Counterspells and is sure I have a Spell Snare. I look at my hand of 4 Islands. Nope. Now he’s sure I have another Needle. I savagely rip an Island off the top, remove a counter from Jace to find another Island. He plays EE, blows up my board, I draw a few more Islands and lose promptly. I think I drew something like 15 Islands that game. Luckily it was the only time I was flooded all day.
Game 3 – I keep a risky hand with 1 Island (note – NEVER DO THIS), but I have Needle, Spell Snare, Keg, Counterspell, B2B. In other words, plenty of stuff to hold him off while I search for land drops. We go Island, Island, nothing, Factory – Standstill – Spell Snare, Needle – Force, Factory - Standstill. Eventually I get either a 2nd Needle or a Keg to stick to hold him off. He Vindicates and swings for 4, as he says “now I have walked right into Back to Basics”. I rip my 3rd Island – yup. Nothing happens, he plays Ajani, Gets to 6 counters, makes a 21/21 Avatar, I play Keg. I have to counter his Meddling Mages because I don’t have an answer for a beater. I’m still on like 5 Islands, and he has his full 5 basics and can cast pretty much anything. He brings back his E. Dragon. I hold Shackles trying to bait him into playing it as that’s the only way I’ll win before time. He plays Mage naming Shackles. FUDGE. Time is called. He gets in once with his Mage and his only untapped Factory to get me to 4. I keg his mage next turn with counterspell backup for his Elspeth. We end in another draw.

0-0-2

Round 3
Brian with Rbg Goblins
Game 1 – He opens with 2 Mountains and 2 Ports and does annoying things with them that prevent me from countering Lackey (I have 3 Counterspell in my hand at this time and I have hit all my land drops). I play a too-late Keg and he Lackeys in a Ringleader. I stabilize with Shackles on Ringleader and B2B. I have counters for his other 3 Ringleaders. I get my other 2 Shackles and beat him with his own men. All game I see only Mountains, Ports and Wastelands, so I’m not sure of his splash colors, hopefully not green…
Game 2 - +4 Propaganda, +3 Blasts, -1 CtS, -3 Spell Snare, -1 B2B, -2 AV. This was so morbidly wrong. I hate sideboarding. 4 Spell Snares should have come out and B2B stays in at all costs, especially with Propaganda coming in. He opens with Vial. Shit. I’m able to stabilize with 2x Propaganda, but I know he’s trying to find Grip once I see a Taiga. He has 2 Lackey, Vial at 5, Ringleader but only 3 lands. A B2B would have ended it. Unfortunately I’m very bad at magic. To demonstrate how bad I am, he Vials in Siege-Gang. I had just played Keg and blow it 0 forgetting that I could hit that stupid Vial. Oh well, I have another Keg in my grip. I Sower his Siege-Gang to prevent shenanigans. Next turn he extirpates Keg after my draw step. FUDGE. My hand shows 2x Shackles, Counterspell, Sower, Keg and Morphling. I play Sower on Ringleader(?) and go to Flying beats. Next turn he Therapies on Shackles, Flashback on Morphling. DOUBLE FUDGE. I’m flying in for 4 a turn until he finds siege-gang. Vials it in. Shoots my sowers, and burns me down. What an agonizing loss, but all the same I deserved it.
Game 3 – What a surprise, time is almost up. I stupidly do not fix my sideboard. We’re playing at a reasonable tempo even though I have a tiny chance of winning. He gets a slow start. I get a Propaganda and a turn 5 Morphling. On turn 6 if I can get in for 5 before time I might have a chance. I swing, pump, he Extirpates before damage, and time is called. If we had more turns/time he might have been able to swarm me, but I was at 19 and 2 swings from killing him. Here’s a shocker: we end in a draw.

0-0-3

Round 4
Eli with UGr Dreadstill
Game 1 – He mulls to 5. I suspend AV, he lands a Volc and then does nothing for a long while. I’m hitting land drops, but he has quad-FoW which slows me down a bit. In time I land Shackles, Keg and Morphling. Beats commence. He finally gets to 3 Land and goes for Dreadnought, Stifle. He must have a second stifle because I have Keg, so I Force. He stifles again, but none of this matters because I have lethal damage in the air.
Game 2 - +3 Needle, +3 Chalice, -1 CtS, -2 AV, -1 Shackles (I saw no green game 1), -1 Spell Snare, -1 FoF. I see Needle, Chalice, B2B in my hand. 3 must-counter spells that I’ll be aggressively running out my first 3 turns. Needle is met by Daze, but Chalice and B2B land. He gets a Goyf right before I lock him down under B2B. He beats me to 10, I land Morphling with plenty of mana. I’m able to beat and block and that’s the match.

1-0-3

Round 5 – Tom with Team America (with Nyxathid, Hymn and some basic lands)
Game 1 – Tom thinks this is a pretty positive matchup for him because of his discard suite. I honestly have no idea, but I know TA usually plays 0 basics and creatures that I can steal very easily, plus his mana-denial gameplan is weakened against 23 Island.dec. He Hymns 2 Islands and I’m stuck on 2 for a while with Shackles and B2B in hand. So much for resiliency against mana-denial. Even so I counter his Tombstalker, but he sticks a Nyxathid. I quickly get Shackles and B2B on-line, and he ends up smothering his own man. I hit 6 Islands eventually and he says that I can now steal any of his creatures. I play Sower with no target just to apply some pressure. He scoops.
Game 2 - +4 Propaganda, - 2 AV, -1 CtS, -1 Keg. He opens with double Duress but he’s stuck on 1 land. He hits my AV and B2B. He Hymns after hitting another land, I have Force, Force, Sower so I protect Sower. Then he gets Goyf. I have only 3 Islands in play and a Sower in hand. I proceed to topdeck like a true champion. Propaganda. He plays a second Goyf. B2B. His jaw drops. 4th land for Sower. I don’t even know what to say at this point. My next 2 draws are Island, Shackles. I apologize for being such a miser.

2-0-3

Round 6 – Rich with Affinity
Game 1 – He plays worker, ravager is spell snared, plays Disciple, Frogmite. I get B2B, play Sower on Frogmite and he scoops.
Game 2 - +4 Propaganda, +2 Chalice (should have been Needle, duh). He gets Disciple, Ravager, Myr Enforcer and Master of Etherium. I have double Propaganda so he only gets on swing in with Master (for 7) before I Sower it. I land Shackles, target Ravager during his attack phase, he sacrifices some stuff to bring me to 7 and swings with a 3/5 Ornithopter putting me to 4. I play another Sower on Enforcer and Shackle Ornithopter and smash him.

3-0-3

My opponents were cool all day, so props to them. In the end the deck did everything I wanted it to. I’m confident that a better pilot could have made top 8 pretty easily. I don’t think there’s much that I would change about the build, but there were quite a few headache decks running around. Goyf Sligh, Merfolk and Combo are all rough going with MUC.

Any advice on sideboarding strategy is much appreciated. CtS and AV usually feel pretty cuttable to me so those are the first cards I go for.

[Media314r8]

against goblins, I would definitely board in needles if you have them in the SB, as it's much better at shutting down both vial and SGC than keg is, as their curve is so spread out, keg is usually a 1for1. Against team america, I would never, EVER cut AV, as it trumps their discard, and ensures you hit your land drops to make it to 2U for the much more important B2B. Against landstill, why did you wait until 9 mana to 'protect' CtS? Were you afraid of extirpate? (not that you can do much against it short of set chalice) It seems that just casting CtS three times over those turns your were waiting to get to nine mana would have been better. I rarely break the seven mana threshold unless I feel I can spelll snare an opponent's counterspell.

[Misplayer]

Thanks for the tips. In the Landstill matchup I needed to protect B2B at all costs. Getting a 5/5 beater was not worth potentially allowing him to untap in my estimation. I could have been wrong.

[Media314r8]

I understand, I thought you were saving the 'protection' FOR CtS, which seems irrel. Protecting B2B makes sense, but with your opponent on four mana (of all colors) he would need about a WoG or Damnation to make it though B2B and your army of 5/5 dragons

[Serginho]

After playing MUC a lot, I think this deck really needs a small creature to get extra draws each turn, as ophidian, shadowmage infiltrator or augury adept.

Then, another problem I find is powder keg. That card is really bad. If an oponent cast something dangerous you will need to wait a lot until you resolve the ability, if you can. Repeal is very better. (you need 4 force spike, to avoid the powder keg).

And 4 FoF... This deck needs to get draws with cheap instant spells, as AK or BS. Ancestral vision can be good too, but not to be suspended in the first turn, you need one mana for force spike or spell snare. I currently run only 2 FoF, and sometimes I run 0, because shadowmage infiltrator/augury adept is amazingly good giving you extra draws.

I will post my list soon.

[Doks]

What is your meta like?
I guess not that removal heavy, right?
The 3CC-CA-creatures (oh my, sorry four the word...) have been discussed a long time and the first MUC-thread was introducing them in lists that actually placed T8 on big tourneys.

But currently, I think they are not playable in an average metagame because of

a) too much creature removal
b) tapping out on T3 being pretty stupid (at least for the stack-oriented build)

(maybe the creatures might work in perm-based MUC, but I guess the CC3 slot is already too filled and you got to drop better things like those guys).


I agree with you on Powder Keg. After running EE I never changed back, but that's depending on the build and experience / playstyle.


FoF is the core in each of MUC's versions. This will ensure your late game wins. Remember EOTFOFYL? Admitted, might be not so true for Legacy as it is / was for Vintage format players, but it has proven to be worth each of its full 4 slots the playset of FoF requires.

[Tea]

Hello, this is my first post in this forum. I’m from Germany and I hope that my English is not so bad. Having read through the whole thread I came up with this list:

Lands: 25
25 island

Win-conditions: 3
2 morphling
1 call the skybreaker

Board-control: 8
4 vedalken shackles
4 nevinyrral’s disk

Counters: 16
4 force of will
4 counterspell
4 spell snare
4 force spike

Draw: 8
4 fact or fiction
4 think twice

sb: 15
4 blue elemental blast
4 chalice of the void
4 back to basics
3 divert


card-choices:

Force spike, first of all there are some crucial 1CC spells which can only be dealt with force of will like lackey, aether vial, nimble mongoose. If the opponent plays around it, he will get slower, so you get enough time to play a nevinyrral’s disk. In the late game you can pitch to force of will.

spell spare, in my former versions I played prohibit instead of spell snares. However I came back to spell snares because of daze; moreover, there are a lot of dangerous spells spell snare can counter.


I have decided to play call the skybreaker because of its synergy with fact or fiction; however I only play one of them because I don’t profit of having two of them in my graveyard instead of one.


Think twice, it’s not a powerful card, but it fits perfectly into the deck. It’s the only non counterspell-card which can be played on turn two providing real card-advantage; furthermore, it has synergy with fact or fiction.

Thirst for knowledge requires more artefacts.

AV has bad synergies with the counters because it’s a sorcery. On the first turn I want to have my mana open to play force spike, on the second turn to play counterspell.

Another option is Impulse, I think. It seems quite good to me. Playing 25 islands you rarely have to use it to dig for islands, so you can dig for bombs like vedalken shackles or nevinyrral’s disk. However, it’s not real card-advantage.


Maybe I should cut the three diverts and a blue elemental blast to add four relic of progenitus.
However, I think, relic of progenitus is only really needed against Ichorid, isn’t it?

Propaganda is another card I would like to have in my sideboard, but I don’t know what to cut.

I really wonder if I need a bounce spell or something like that.

[mackaber]

Hello, this is my first post in this forum. I’m from Germany and I hope that my English is not so bad. Having read through the whole thread I came up with this list:

Lands: 25
25 island

Win-conditions: 3
2 morphling
1 call the skybreaker

Board-control: 8
4 vedalken shackles
4 nevinyrral’s disk

Counters: 16
4 force of will
4 counterspell
4 spell snare
4 force spike

Draw: 8
4 fact or fiction
4 think twice

sb: 15
4 blue elemental blast
4 chalice of the void
4 back to basics
3 divert


card-choices:

Force spike, first of all there are some crucial 1CC spells which can only be dealt with force of will like lackey, aether vial, nimble mongoose. If the opponent plays around it, he will get slower, so you get enough time to play a nevinyrral’s disk. In the late game you can pitch to force of will.

spell spare, in my former versions I played prohibit instead of spell snares. However I came back to spell snares because of daze; moreover, there are a lot of dangerous spells spell snare can counter.


I have decided to play call the skybreaker because of its synergy with fact or fiction; however I only play one of them because I don’t profit of having two of them in my graveyard instead of one.


Think twice, it’s not a powerful card, but it fits perfectly into the deck. It’s the only non counterspell-card which can be played on turn two providing real card-advantage; furthermore, it has synergy with fact or fiction.

Thirst for knowledge requires more artefacts.

AV has bad synergies with the counters because it’s a sorcery. On the first turn I want to have my mana open to play force spike, on the second turn to play counterspell.

Another option is Impulse, I think. It seems quite good to me. Playing 25 islands you rarely have to use it to dig for islands, so you can dig for bombs like vedalken shackles or nevinyrral’s disk. However, it’s not real card-advantage.


Maybe I should cut the three diverts and a blue elemental blast to add four relic of progenitus.
However, I think, relic of progenitus is only really needed against Ichorid, isn’t it?

Propaganda is another card I would like to have in my sideboard, but I don’t know what to cut.

I really wonder if I need a bounce spell or something like that.

Your list looks pretty solid, actually quite similar to mine :). A few minor things and one major: Force Spike sucks. While yes you are slow as hell and Force Spike helps in that respect it weakens your lategame way too much.
I like think twice it's just that AV is way more powerful and if you cut Force Spike it's suddenly very viable. Also if you play Think Twice you don't need 25 lands.
Another point to consider: I've been pretty happy with a few Traumatic Visions in land slots. It looks really shitty on paper but when you draw it in the lategame it looks way more sexy than an island.
With 4 Disks I prefer Rainbow over Morphling. But Morphling has a more dramatic effect on the board than rainbow. I've found 1 Rainbow and 1 CtS to be sufficicient kill.
I'm also of the conviction that you need Bounce, I'm currently running 1 Capsize which seems to be the most powerful in the abstratc since it gives you more momentum in the lategame. I also play 1 Cryptic Command cause it's just more flexible than repeal. Hardcounters are this decs bread and butter and having one that can multitask is very usefull.

Oh and you really need Relics in the board Loam Decs will totally pown you without em and currently they seem to be pretty popular in Germany.

[KingAlanI]

Relic of Progenitus or Tormod's Crypt? Hmm...

Anyway, here's what I've got:


Sleeves: Black
Format: Legacy
//
Land (25)
25 * Snow-Covered Island

Creatures (3)
1 * Guile
1 * Meloku, the Clouded Mirror
1 * Morphling

Instant (21)
4 * Counterspell
4 * Force of Will
4 * Spell Snare
4 * Fact or Fiction
4 * Daze
1 * Dissipate

Enchantment (8)
4 * Propaganda
4 * Back to Basics

Artifact (3)
3 * Vedalken Shackles

//
Sideboard (15)
4 * Trickbind
4 * Tormod's Crypt
3 * Annul
2 * Blue Elemental Blast
2 * Hydroblast

[Serginho]

dude, daze is horrible.

[elof]

List


How about -4 Daze, +4 Force Spike, -2 Tormods, +2 Relics?

Daze is horrible in a deck that needs to drop a land every turn!

[Serginho]

// Lands
4 [10E] Quicksand
19 [5E] Island (3)

// Creatures
1 [VI] Rainbow Efreet

// Spells
4 [LG] Force Spike
1 [EVE] Call the Skybreaker
4 [TSP] Think Twice
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [US] Back to Basics
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FNM] Counterspell
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
3 [GP] Repeal
3 [REW] Mana Leak

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [MR] Annul
SB: 3 [7E] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 4 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast


What do you think about it? The league I play is full of aggro decks, mainly sligh/burn/goyfsligh, and aggrocontrol decks too.

I am not sure about the list because I used to play another different, with fetch + brainstorm and black splash for shadowmage infiltrator, but nowadays it's impossible to play it, that list was more effective against control and aggrocontrol.

Can anyone aid me?

[Tea]

You should play 4 vedalken shackles and 4 fact or fiction.
Nevinyrral’s disk is also a strong card against aggro. I think you can play the disks along with back to basics. I would cut the mana leak.
I would also cut the quicksands. If they get destroyed by a wasteland, you have to play your disk a turn later.

I will try out the following changes of my original list: - 4 force spike,
- 4 think twice, + 4 AV, + 4 repeal

I decided on repeal because it is as sufficient as other bounce spells to deal with early threats.
In order to have them in early game I will add four of them.

Not playing force spike seems like a good reason to play AV over Think twice.


Traumatic visions could be good as it is an instant which costs 2, so I will try it out.

[mackaber]

You should play 4 vedalken shackles and 4 fact or fiction.
Nevinyrral’s disk is also a strong card against aggro. I think you can play the disks along with back to basics. I would cut the mana leak.
I would also cut the quicksands. If they get destroyed by a wasteland, you have to play your disk a turn later.

I will try out the following changes of my original list: - 4 force spike,
- 4 think twice, + 4 AV, + 4 repeal

I decided on repeal because it is as sufficient as other bounce spells to deal with early threats.
In order to have them in early game I will add four of them.

Not playing force spike seems like a good reason to play AV over Think twice.


Traumatic visions could be good as it is an instant which costs 2, so I will try it out.

4 Repeal is definetly too many since it's a dead card qay more often than you'd think.

[Jak]

Repeal is never a dead card.

[Misplayer]

@Serginho: If your meta is mostly burn/sligh decks then MUC may not be the best option. If you still decide to run it, I agree with most of the replies above, and also consider Chalice SB or even maindeck. Chalice at 1 WRECKS burn/sligh and aggro control.

Also, play 4 B2B or put them in your sideboard. They're pretty dead against Goyf Sligh and really dead against burn.

On Repeal - a few pages back someone described why Repeal is subpar and I think the reasoning was something like this: If you assume U is what you're paying to cantrip, then you're essentially paying X to return a permanent with CMC=X. To me, this is not an efficient use of mana. I'd rather play FoF then bounce a CMC=3 card and cantrip. I'd also rather run Powder Keg or Disk and destroy it.

[mackaber]

Repeal is never a dead card.

Wow that was quite a statement. Feel like backing it up somehow? It's dead whenever there are no non land permamnents in play. Like against combo decs, against landstill (Oh I forgot you can cycle it for 4 mana and bounce a crucible hooray). Basically it's dead against any creatureless dec in 90 per cent of situations it's also one mana too expensive to bounce the disk you played turn 4 and have to blow up turn 5.

[4eak]

@ Misplayer


On Repeal - a few pages back someone described why Repeal is subpar ...

Perhaps you're referring to post #815:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=302948&postcount=815

Still some disagreement (and good responses from Doks), speaking of which:


@ mackaber



Repeal is never a dead card.Wow that was quite a statement. Feel like backing it up somehow?...[etc.]

Whoa, back the train up. Here is what you said in post #816:


Lol. Repeal is an awesome control spell, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. It's never dead since at the very least it will maintain card parity.

Quite a statement indeed.

While I agree with what you are now saying about Repeal, I think even you can at least have a sense of humor about Jak's statement, even if his had comparably less defense of the idea that "repeal is never dead". After all, even you once thought his statement to be true.








peace,
4eak

[mackaber]

@4eak: Excesive Testing made me wiser. I had mainly played repeal in other formats or in decs with tarmogoyfs up to this point where they in fact never were dead. But since there's so many matchups where it does next to nothing, besides maintaining card parity and some where it's completly dead I'd have to correct my standpoint. I'd still play repeal over echoing truth any day but I've found Capsize and Command to be far more powerful overall.

[Alonso99]

Hello everyone I am new to the Source here and wanted to share my experience with MUC. I played this list at the Dream Wizards Legacy #2 and placed 9th out of 39 people. This was the top 8. http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=Dreamwizard+Legacy+%232

creature [2]
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
1 Morphling
instant [24]
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Stifle
enchantment [6]
3 Back to Basics
3 Propaganda
artifact [5]
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Vedalken Shackles
land [22]
4 Flooded Strand
12 Island
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
planeswalker [1]
1 Jace Beleren
60 cards
Sideboard.
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Meddling Mage
2 Pithing Needle
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydro Blast
3 energy flux.

I feel the propagandas belong in the sideboard, but I used every card from the sideboard in my matchups so I am unsure as what to cut. I lost 2 matches. One to Dreadstill round 2. Game one he scooped to back to basics. The next game I had no answer to a quick dreadnought. Game 3 I lost a counter war to prevent a stifle from resolving on my EE. His goyfs got me. The other game I lost was to the deck that ended up in 6th place. Back to basics was not that good in this matchup and I did not have enough answers to his burn. Game 2 I countered most of his stuff and he ran out of steam, and Meloku finished the game. Game 3 I got REB'd out.

The matches I won were basically riding either back to basics or using the hate in my sideboard. Relics and Meddling Mage on Dread return vs Ichorid, Flux vs an affinity deck. Winning counter wars over B2B vs Eva Green and another Dreadstill.
I feel AK does not fit so well so thats one thing I want to cut for maybe a 4th brainstorm and FOF. And then find 2 other slots for a set of Swords.

Thoughts are greatly appreciated ! :)

[Jason]

@Alonso99:

You are correct that Accumulated Knowledge is not very good. You need to have seen 3 of them to draw more cards than Think Twice. They definitely need to go.

Also, although Stifle is a powerhouse, it's not super great, as MUC cannot really take advantage of the tempo. If you feel you must have Stifle, the sideboard should be the place for them. I definitely say take them out.

I've never been a fan of the Brainstorm + Fetches, but if you do go that route with white (and not red with Volcanic Island and Pyroclasm + REB in the board which I had mentioned once), Swords to Plowshares is almost a definite must-add.

You will probably also need to add an additional Plains if you add 4 StP, so I would probably cut a fetch for it.

Jace is good versus control, but I can see it being very bad against aggro decks and sligh. I might think cutting it for a 4th Engineered Explosives or a 4th Vedalken Shackles or even 1 random Control Magic might be a good idea; I'm not sure how powerful Jace was for you, though.

Also, by adding Swords to Plowshares, Propaganda may be less necessary, so they could maybe go to the board and you can possibly add 3x Mana Leak; either could be a good way to go.

Saying all that, I definitely suggest the following:
-1 Polluted Delta (because you need black mana less than white)
-4 AK (because it's terrible)
-3 Stifle (because you can't really gain anything from the tempo)
+1 Plains/Tundra (one Tundra won't kill you under B2B)
+4 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Fact or Fiction
+1 Brainstorm
+1 Vedalken Shackles

I might also suggest changing the Swamp to an Underground Sea; the Back to Basics isn't going to hurt you that significantly with 1-3 nonbasics, it taps for blue mana (which is huge if it is in your opening hand), and is fetchable by all your lands. The same goes for the Plains/Tundra situation.

As for the Jace and Propaganda in the main deck, I feel that totally depends on how much you enjoy seeing the cards.

I hope some of this helps, and good luck playing the most fun deck in Legacy!

[Alonso99]

Thanks Jason!

The propaganda main decks wreck ichorid. The interaction between B2b and propaganda was very nice, but it def could go to the sideboard if I fit 4 swords main. Jace did great whenever I resolved him. I actually considered finding room for a 2nd one in the SB. A card I have been thinking about is Cryptic Command. Maybe 2 of them in the MD. They are too slow to be a 4 of.

[Arsenal]

I play is a pretty slow meta (very little pure aggro, a smattering of Storm combo, lots of control, lots of mid-range), so running 2x maindeck Jace has proven AMAZING to me. In a faster meta, I wouldn't run Jace maindeck, but I'd stick 2x in the sideboard.

[scrow213]

Sorry if this is a stupid post, I can't really dig through all the pages of this thread, but I was thinking about going with a CB/Top style build with a lower curve. Here are cards at each CC I was thinking about:

1cc:
Brainstorm
Spell Snare
Repeal
Force Spike
Sensei's Divining Top

2cc:
Echoing Truth
Counterspell
Counterbalance
Rune Snag
Mana Leak (I know, a lot of "soft" counters)
Disrupting Shoal (can be backup FoW with the right mana curve)
Remove Soul / Negate (?)
Scent of Brine (?)
Miscalculation
Think Twice

3cc:
Vedalken Shackles
Thirst for Knowledge
Dissipate
Exclude
Hinder
Thoughtbind

After 3cc it doesn't really matter. Obviously 4x FoW, and then maybe FoF or other draw spells (Standstill?), and some finisher (Call the Skybreaker or whatever). Basically the deck is looking to use CB/Top as much as possible so as to not need to waste counters unless CB misses. And as I said, with a solid curve, you can easily make Disrupting Shoal useful in a pinch.

Just a thought. Perhaps it's been discussed and it sucks. Perhaps it will be a solid deck. I don't know. What cards do you guys think will make the cut and which cards are not worth it? I will test the deck if you will help me hammer out a trial list.

Thanks!!

[Jason]

I was just wondering who all showed up at the GP in Chicago playing Mono-Blue Control. I personally didn't see anyone else playing it, but one of my friends said he saw someone playing MUC sometime in round 3 but didn't see anyone after that.

The list I played was as follows:

23 Snow-Covered Island
1 Academy Ruins
3 Powder Keg
3 Vedalken Shackles
1 Call the Skybreaker
3 Back to Basics
1 Control Magic
4 Counterspell
1 Cryptic Command
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
3 Impulse
2 Mana Leak
3 Propaganda
1 Rainbow Efreet
3 Spell Snare

Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Disrupt
2 Sower of Temptation

Round 1, I beat Solidarity 2-0 (I don't know how, he was mana-screwed game 1 and Call the Skybreaker got there; game 2, I kept casting Disrupt on his Brainstorm to keep him at 1 land for a few turns and my 10 lands to his 4 meant Call the Skybreaker will again get there)

Round 2, I lost to WGU Threshold running more counter magic than me 0-2 (I believe he had 4x Counterspell; 4x Spell Snare; 4x Daze; 4x Force of Will)

Round 3, I beat Dreadstill 2-1 (game 1, he had turn 2 Dreadnought + Stifle with 2x Daze and Force of Will backing him up; game 2, Chalice of the Void at 1 and Back to Basics got there; game 3, 3x Chalice of the Void at 1 and 3x Back to Basics all in play got there)

Round 4, I beat WUB Landstill 2-1. (game 1, Back to Basics locks him out; game 2, he Extirpates Powder Keg and Force of Will and goes crazy with Factory beats; game 3, he has 3x Meddling Mage - 1 on B2B, 1 on Vedalken Shackles, 1 on Call the Skybreaker - so I Sower the B2B Mage and start beating face with his own creature and Sower...he blocks the B2B Mage with the Call the Skybreaker Mage so I cast Call the Skybreaker and go to town and win)

Round 5, I beat Affinity 2-0 (game 1, Propaganda + Back to Basics + Vedalken Shackles = good game; game 2, Back to Basics + Vedalken Shackles + Powder Keg = good game)

Round 6, I played Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa who was playing WGU Threshold and lost 0-2 (game 1, he surprised me with main deck Krosan Grip; game 2, double Trygon Predator and a Shackles of his own and me playing like poop gave him the win - he played amazing too so I don't want to make any excuses)

Round 7, I beat ANT 2-1 (game 1, I made it to turn 20 or so with 25 minutes in the round until he finally found a Duress and saw I was holding a hand of 3x Island, 1 Propaganda, 1 Spell Snare, 1 Powder Keg; game 2, I stuck a Chalice of the Void at 1 and then a couple turns later a Chalice of the Void at 0...he played Dark Confidant but I sideboarded in Sower of Temptation and stole it and poked him out; game 3, he goes for Ad Nauseum during his draw step using LED mana he cracked during his upkeep and I cast Force of Will...he never regains control)

Round 8, I lost to ANT 1-2 (game 1, I don't know what he is playing but I had to mulligan and kept this: 2x Island, 1x Force of Will, 2x Spell Snare, 1x Impulse so I play an Island and pass turn...he plays a land and pass turn...I play an Island and pass turn, he end of turn Mystical Tutor which I let resolve and he finds Ad Nauseum...his turn, he plays a land and taps them both for Cabal Ritual so I go for Spell Snare, he responds with Pact of Negation, I respond with Spell Snare again, he responds with Pact of Negation, I respond with Force of Will targeting the Ritual...we go to game 2; game 2, I had an ok hand of 2x Island, 1x Chalice of the Void, 1x Tormod's Crypt, 1x Disrupt, 1x Force of Will, 1x Fact or Fiction...he plays Duress on Chalice...I end up casting Force of Will on a Mystical Tutor pitching Fact or Fiction...I get Academy Ruins by turn 3, get my Chalice back but stupidly play it at 1 instead of 0 and he wins next turn because I have no available counterspells; game 3, it was super long...I had Chalice at 0 and 1 and about half-way through the game he had all his lands in play and played Tendrils for 14 just from 0 and 1 spells...I ended up having to Sower beat him for ~11 turns that I didn't really have due to my dwindling library because my other wins were in the yard and he had a well-timed Wipe Away on Academy Ruins when I had 0 cards in deck and he decked me)

Round 9, I lost to WGU Threshold featuring Natural Order into Progenitus 1-2 (game 1, Mongoose gets there and I see he is playing 5 basic lands making B2B less than exciting; game 2, Rainbow Efreet and Control Magic on Tarmogoyf wins me the match; game 3, he Forces through a Counterbalance and tried to blind counter an Impulse revealing Progenitus...Karma!...but Mongoose ended up getting there again)

I learned Chalice of the Void and Disrupt are amazing against combo. A must-have in the sideboard. The Propaganda was less-than-exciting but it did win me a game against Affinity, keeping my streak of destroying that deck in less than 15 minutes per match alive. Morphling would have been HUGE in the Threshold matchups. And I really wanted 4x Back to Basics against those decks as well. Rainbow Efreet is great, but I was never in a situation where Wrath of God/Pernicious Deed was relevant so Morphling definitely would have been better for me in this tournament. As always, Control Magic is awesome in every non-combo match, as is Shackles. Sower of Temptation was almost always boarded in. Against combo, it is another beater/Dark Confidant stealer, and against aggro, it steals fat so it was kicking butt. Having only 3x Powder Keg didn't hurt me too much - I could have used it to stop the Mongoose beats, but that's about it. Call the Skybreaker was amazing because even though it did get countered sometimes, it came back the next turn anyway. Finally, I really wanted to play Telemin Performance against combo but I couldn't fit it in the sideboard. I think it would have hosed combo because I always lived until turn 5 post-board.

If anyone else played MUC in the GP or anyone has any suggestions or comments, I'd love to hear them!

[NecroYawgmoth]

...so, how much is Propaganda needed in the Maindeck, nowadays?

Many people ditched it in the side, but it has awesome synergy with BtB...

When I put it in the Sideboard, what should I change between MD and SB? ...or does this list look fine?


23 Snow-Covered Island

1 Jace Beleren
1 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet

4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare

4 Ancstral Vision
4 Fact or Fiction

4 Back to Basics
4 Propaganda

4 Powder Keg
3 Vedalken Shackles


Sideboard
4 Hydroblast
3 Arcane Labratory
3 Repeal
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Jace Beleren




YawG

[Tea]

I don’t like propaganda. I prefer to have another vedalken shackles and spell snare rather than propaganda. And Repeal looks weak in the sideboard.

I have done some testing and I really hated my mana base of 24 islands. Either I had too many lands or too few. So I cut some islands and added opt and it has been working great so far. Opt is definitely better than brainstorm if there are no fetchlands.
What do you think?

22 island

4 force of will
4 counterspell
4 spell snare
4 force spike

4 fact or fiction
4 think twice
4 opt

4 vedalken shackles
4 nevinyrral’s disk

2 morphling

SB: 4 back to basics
SB: 4 chalice of the void
SB: 4 blue elemental blast
SB: 3 relic of progenitus

[Arsenal]

If you play CtS, then I wouldn't go less than 24 Islands. Although, since you do not play CtS, I can possible see it, but even then, MUC is pretty mana hungry for most of the game (Shackles + activate on the same turn, Morphling w/ plenty of mana open to protect, drop a permanent + leave countermagic mana open for opponent's turn, etc), so I don't see why you'd want to run less than 24.

[scrow213]

Sorry to barge in again guys. My last post got lost in tournament reports, and I am looking for some feedback, even if it's nothing more than "It could work" or "No it sucks". Here is the post from before. Thanks again!


I was thinking about going with a CB/Top style build with a lower curve. Here are cards at each CC I was thinking about:

1cc:
Brainstorm
Spell Snare
Repeal
Force Spike
Sensei's Divining Top

2cc:
Echoing Truth
Counterspell
Counterbalance
Rune Snag
Mana Leak (I know, a lot of "soft" counters)
Disrupting Shoal (can be backup FoW with the right mana curve)
Remove Soul / Negate (?)
Scent of Brine (?)
Miscalculation
Think Twice

3cc:
Vedalken Shackles
Thirst for Knowledge
Dissipate
Exclude
Hinder
Thoughtbind

After 3cc it doesn't really matter. Obviously 4x FoW, and then maybe FoF or other draw spells (Standstill?), and some finisher (Call the Skybreaker or whatever). Basically the deck is looking to use CB/Top as much as possible so as to not need to waste counters unless CB misses. And as I said, with a solid curve, you can easily make Disrupting Shoal useful in a pinch.

Just a thought. Perhaps it's been discussed and it sucks. Perhaps it will be a solid deck. I don't know. What cards do you guys think will make the cut and which cards are not worth it? I will test the deck if you will help me hammer out a trial list.

Thanks!!

EDIT: Here is a rough list I threw together. Any changes you can see right off the bat? I will start testing, but I would like some feedback. Just seems like CB could really help save counters until we need them. I would like to fit Brainstorm in here too, as that is amazing with CB.
// Lands
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
19 [5E] Island (3)

// Spells
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [TSP] Think Twice
2 [EVE] Call the Skybreaker
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [BOK] Disrupting Shoal
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [FNM] Counterspell