[Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

[bowvamp]

Looks cool, but in order to use CB/top to it's full effectiveness, you need fetches.

[Doks]

Sorry to barge in again guys. My last post got lost in tournament reports, and I am looking for some feedback, even if it's nothing more than "It could work" or "No it sucks". Here is the post from before. Thanks again!



EDIT: Here is a rough list I threw together. Any changes you can see right off the bat? I will start testing, but I would like some feedback. Just seems like CB could really help save counters until we need them. I would like to fit Brainstorm in here too, as that is amazing with CB.
// Lands
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
19 [5E] Island (3)

// Spells
4 [OD] Standstill - how do you make it asymetrical?
3 [TSP] Think Twice
2 [EVE] Call the Skybreaker
4 [CS] Counterbalance - how do you use the tempo won by it?
4 Disrupting Shoal [B]- Shoal OR CB - both don't harmonize imho
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [FNM] Counterspell



What do you do when facing a T1 Mongoose? Only out would be FoW that could be countered by the opponent's FoW or Daze. So?

The CC1 Slot with only 8 cards is missing at least 2-4 more I think.

You don't have a real card drawing engine (TT alone is not solid enough and I still can't imagine any reason for Standstill in this specific list). Even with CB/Top creating virtual card advantage you can't only rely on it.

[scrow213]

What do you do when facing a T1 Mongoose? Only out would be FoW that could be countered by the opponent's FoW or Daze. So?

The CC1 Slot with only 8 cards is missing at least 2-4 more I think.

You don't have a real card drawing engine (TT alone is not solid enough and I still can't imagine any reason for Standstill in this specific list). Even with CB/Top creating virtual card advantage you can't only rely on it.

This is the type of feedback I am looking for. I am not using CB for tempo. I am using it so I can save counters for when CB misses. This, in theory, will make the countermagic last much longer. Standstill was a bad play on my part, and I want to fit Brainstorm in that CMC1 slot, but how would you build the deck?

And as for Shoal, it fits the deck well. You are already playing a deck heavily invested in the low-mana end of the curve, so Shoal will, most of the time, be another Force of Will.

[Tangle.Wire]

T1 Mongoose is one of the reasons i like the fetchland version more than the "american style" caus u can drop explosives for 1 quicker than using the disk to handle mongoose, its bad to waste a force of will to a mongoose anyway :rolleyes:

shoal is nice but do u really have slots for it at least in the maindeck?

[GGoober]

This is my list currently. It's pretty solid and testing has been good against Imperial Painter, Threshold, Goblins. Combo is a little bad since the deck has no Dazes/Stifles but Powder Keg does its job sometimes.


MUCart (perm-based MUC)
Lands: 24
2 Academy Ruins
22 Island

Counterspells: 12
4 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

Board control: 9
3 Powder Keg
2 Oblivion Stone
4 Vedalken Shackles

Draw/Tutors:12
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Impulse
2 Intuition
4 Fact of Fiction

Win condition: 3
2 Morphling
1 Call the Skybreaker


I'm a big fan of Call the Skybreaker and some graveyard recursion. The deck doesn't need the recursion, but it gives it a backup plan. I usually hope to play well to ignore the recursion. Intuition is strong in getting CtS, artifacts + Ruins. I'm not sure about Impulse, but it works great with SDT to "shuffle" away the top 3 cards. Fact or Fiction is also great with SDT. Even with 24 lands, I run into occasion where I don't hit 3mana consistently. I tried many ways to fix it, but I think SDT, Impulse are great early plays if you're not countering anything. SDT + free U for spell snare on turn 2 on the play is easily the most tight and best play this deck can make.

I'm also a bigger fan of Oblivion Stone than Disk. Stone is more expensive to activate on the turn (8mana) but when the need arises, it does its job. Disk and Stone both have the same problem of not activating on the same turn early game, but I think that Stone gives more flexibility. Stone also comes down a turn early and by playing it, you can force your opponents to play differently, while you sit there building mana and deciding when to activate it. Usually, I activate at the end of opponent's turn after he's played spells despite taking some damage from creatures, so as to free my mana open for counters on his 2nd main phase and free mana for my turn later.

I prefer Morphling over to Rainbow Efreet. Efreet is a 6-7 turn clock, compared to a 4-turn clock. MUC really needs a fast win condition. I don't like Skybreaker sometimes since it's so late in the game, but there are situations where you absolutely need the recursive beater. Morphling has been amazing all the time he lands in play with 6 mana open. He can't kill Goyfs, but with enough mana, he can be a huge wall after beating, which provides good late game tempo (lol tempo in MUC is laughable).

I love MUC, and I've been testing out many lists. This is my favorite so far. Does well in a meta of 1-2cc heavy permanents (Bob, Goyf, Dreadnought, Dredge/Warren tokens, Mishra Factories, Chalice/EE).

I have some questions. To improve the goblins/swarm aggro/Nimble Mongoose matchup, I'm tempted to change the list into:

MUCart (perm-based MUC)
Lands: 24
1 Academy Ruins
19 Island
4 Mishra's Factory

Counterspells: 12
4 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

Board control: 9
3 Powder Keg
1 Oblivion Stone
4 Vedalken Shackles

Draw/Tutors:11
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Impulse
2 Intuition
4 Fact of Fiction

Win condition: 4
2 Morphling
1 Call the Skybreaker
1 Crucible of Worlds


I'm not sure which list is better. The first list is more resilient to Wastes and has the chance to go stupid with Back to Basics in the sideboard. The second does much better against swarm aggro, which is a problem for MUC. I guess we solve the swarm aggro using Propagandas, but Factories + Crucible provide another source of win condition. I dislike the second one since hitting UU on turn 2 can be problematic at times. But since this is perm-based MUC, we have other options instead of UU on turn 2 for counterspells.

[Tea]

What about force spike? In the control matchup it may be weak. But I think it’s good against aggro.

[GGoober]

I love Force Spike, however, I wanted to make the deck absolutely consistent with respect to hitting lands. I want to reach 5 lands asap for Shackles + activation on the same turn, or Oblivion Stone or Fact or Fiction with Daze protection, followed by Morphling. Therefore I was running 3 Impulse instead of 3 Force Spike.

Before then, Force Spike was definitely in the MD for me, but since I'm playing perm-based MUC, countering everything isn't that relevant, rather, establishing board position is key in perm-based MUC, so I thought better consistency with Landdrop and draws into the mid-game was more crucial than countering turn 1 plays.

Force Spike still doesn't solve the turn 1 Lackey/Vial problem. BEB/Hydroblast solves Lackey, but Vial is still a problem. I can only hope for Powder Keg in my hand when that happens, and take 1-2 creatures that vial churns out. Force Spike becomes exponentially weak in the mid-late game while Impulse still allows you to dig for answers (shackles, Stone, Kegs, Morphlings)

Against combo, I'm testing 3 Disrupt, 4 Chalice in the Sideboard. My current Sideboard is:

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Disrupt
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
2 Back to Basics
2 Sower of Temptation

[NecroYawgmoth]

...so what are the best win-options for MUC (permanent-based) nowadays???

I think a minimum of 1 Morphling is required, but what are the other slots, if you play 3 Shackles, and have 3 (or 4) winning slots.

Can you give me some Pros and Cons about:

Morphling
Rainbow Efreet
Call the Skybreaker
Jace Beleren
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Meloku, the Clouded Mirror
Guile

I don't know if Rainbow Efreet is outdated, and how good CtS really is, so I ask the guys who have more experience about MUC as me...

[Doks]

For perm-based MUC I think

1 Morphling (no-brainer ;) )
1 Call the Skybreaker / Efreet (both more or less "immune" to Mass Removal)
1 Jace / Meloku (either an extra draw or a token creator that chumps the single creatures that slip through Propaganda / B2B lock)


could be a good compilation as you have an out for most of the bad situations MUC can still have in the later game.

[Media314r8]

I would never drop CtS. Not having to leave mana open for counters and recovering from mass removal and (more frequently) discard effects make 'nilla 5/5s nothing to laugh at. Add to it that they swing for 5 without requiring any additional mana ever again, (more mana for counters and draw) and I just may like the card more than morphling. If only that damn goyf hadn''t made MD relics popular. I'd go with a 1/1/1 split between morphling/CtS/(personally rainbow efreet)

[fractal7221]

...so what are the best win-options for MUC (permanent-based) nowadays???

I think a minimum of 1 Morphling is required, but what are the other slots, if you play 3 Shackles, and have 3 (or 4) winning slots.

Can you give me some Pros and Cons about:

Morphling
Rainbow Efreet
Call the Skybreaker
Jace Beleren
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Meloku, the Clouded Mirror
Guile

I don't know if Rainbow Efreet is outdated, and how good CtS really is, so I ask the guys who have more experience about MUC as me...

Morphling:
pro: Its a 4 turn clock, protects itself against lots of removal, and can pull double duty and defend.

con: Using Morphling to its full potential requires having plenty of mana available every turn.

Rainbow Efreet:
pro: Its really hard to get rid of the stupid thing, allowing you to save more counters for their threats and less for protecting yours. At 4 mana its cheap as far as MUC threats go.

con: Its really slow, requiring two more turns than the other threats. Its far worse in combat than most of the other options.

Call the Skybreaker:
pro: A large, recastable threat. Can really help push through a battle of attrition. Since you can cast more, saving counters for protection is less vital (except for graveyard hate of course).

con: Seven mana is a lot to ask for in a deck with no real acceleration. Legacy is a pretty explosive format and a counter wall can't hold decks back forever. To use the recursive ability requires even more lands.

Jace Beleren: I mainly consider this a draw spell with a the optional hail mary plan if all else fails. Definitely not something I'd rely on to win.

Oona:
pro: A big dude that can either speed up the kill or slow an opposing attack.

con: Using the token creating ability is expensive and unreliable. It will usually cost 1.5 to 2 mana to create each token, plus the one extra. If you have luck me, your bound to fail and make few tokens; resulting in no net turn increase in kill speed, or failing to create the appropriate number of chump blockers to prevent death.

Meluko:
pro: Similar to benefits as Oona, just more predictable token generation at the expense of size. Better able to plan an all in rush kill, or slow play plan.

con: Returning lands is a hefty price for a token. I've found Meluko to be quite the skill testing card (I guess this isn't really a con so to speak). Over committing leaves you open to getting wrecked, under commitment gives your opponent more time than they deserve. With proper play, Meluko is simply a wrecking ball.

Guile: Its a fun card with a cute ability, but nothing I'd seriously consider. I like creatures that can either protect themselves or slow the opponent down in a predictable way.


Of the listed threats, my favorites are definitely Morphling and Meluko. To me they just have the highest utility for a reasonable casting cost. Anything that costs more than 5 mana should just win the game immediately and bring me a sandwich while it does it; Oona, Guile, Call the Skybreaker don't do this. Rainbow Efreet and Jace are just too slow I think (though using Jace in a draw slot is a different question).

[Misplayer]

@fractal, nice analysis, though I think you should take into account what kind of removal each option dies to, as that is the biggest issue for a deck like MUC that is looking for a win-con. Let's assume that you can get to the late game and hit a reasonable amount of land drops, if this isn't the case either the deck has failed you (poor draws) or you have failed with it (poor play/matchup). In this situation, mana is often a less relevant factor when choosing a win-con. In my experience, permanent (B2B) based MUC strategies can usually effectively hamper an opponent in the mid to late game, but as you go deeper and deeper into the late game the chances of your opponent recovering/winning increase (i.e. Krosan Fucking Grip). Therefore, once you've achieved a favorable board position you're looking to end the game ASAP.

This requires your beater/win-con to have 2 characteristics: the ability to end the game in short order (this usually means swinging for 5+ each turn, preferably with evasion) and the ability to win through your opponent's obstacles (e.g. removal, blockers). Of the cards mentioned above, I've found the best ways to do this are with Morphling or Call the Skybreaker. Morphling protects itself from targeted removal, but packs it in to mass removal and counterspells. Call the Skybreaker is more resilient and can occasionally win the game faster, but requires a larger initial mana-investment. Another drawback is that Call the Skybreaker is susceptible to Control Magic effects that have been popularized by the GP (of course, as MUC players, we've known the strength of Shackles/Sower for a while now). Shackles can be a real hassle if you're trying to get there with CtS, as you'll probably need to retrace twice each time to swing for 5. For these reasons, I play a 2 Morphling/1 CtS split, as I’ve found targeted removal/Control Magic effects to be at least twice as prevalent as mass removal.

fractal explained why cards like Oona and Guile are sub-optimal but I’d like to weigh in on Meloku. The fact that this card dies to targeted removal is absolutely terrible. When you play Meloku, those Swords to Plowshares in your opponent’s hand just became relevant: that’s bad news. For my money, this drawback is not worth the ability to end the game a turn earlier than CtS/Morphling, especially when you consider the additional drawback of returning lands to your hand to make your army. I’d always rather tap lands to swing for 5 with Morphling than return lands to swing for 6+ with Meloku/tokens. The argument that Meloku comes down earlier than CtS does not work for me either. If you’re playing Meloku on turn 5 you’re probably in a losing position. Then if you’re returning 2 of your 6 lands next turn to put your opponent on a 4-5 turn clock, you’re in even worse shape. I’d rather wait 2 turns and go for CtS/Morphling turn 7 or later, ignore targeted removal, keep my lands on the table, and probably win in 4 turns.

On a completely unrelated note, how have permanent-based MUC players been faring against Counterbalance? Obviously we can ignore it most of the time, but I still find it to be a must-counter pain-in-the-ass for the following reasons: 1) With CB/Top on the table, MUC has a VERY difficult time winning counter wars and 2) more and more decks can flip for 3 nowadays. MUC’s curve is varied enough where it’s very possible the win through CB/Top, but it’s also very possible to straight-up lose to it because our big bombs (Shackles/B2B) cost 3. Currently, my best answer out of the sideboard is Pithing Needle. Any other suggestions?

[Doks]

[...]
On a completely unrelated note, how have permanent-based MUC players been faring against Counterbalance? Obviously we can ignore it most of the time, but I still find it to be a must-counter pain-in-the-ass for the following reasons
[...]


Well observed.

I don't get it when perm-based players say they don't fear balance with their only 8-10 counters as the only out to it (bloody Keg unfortunately doesn't touch CB...) for you listed reasons.
Most of them don't even run some kind of bounce (Repeal, Cryptic Command, even Wipe Away would do the trick at CC>2!) and are vulnerable to a single CC3 card on top of the opponent's library...
Even when playing stack-oriented MUC (the one that I still prefer) I usually try to counter a CB or get rid of it with EE@2 for 3 or even 4 ASAP because

a) It disrupts my draw suit heavily (BS, Impulse / AK, TT, sometimes even TfK or FoF!)
b) It shuts down a lot of my countermagic (CS, Spell Snare, even FoW sometimes!)
c) It can hit my rare 3CC bombs (Shackles(!), B2B)
d) It might even hit your Win-Condition (with FoW on top for Morphling / Meloku or Natural Order for Efreet)

The above list is rated from important to less important, but at least stack-MUC has an out for the lock.

Perm-based MUC could / should add some higher casting cost overall solutions (C. Command can be very nice when you have won several turns by having locked your opp down with B2B+Propaganda I imagine or go and try Wipe Away as that should have the highest chance of the CC3 solutions of bouncing CB) because I don't think these players want to add EE+Fetches.

[Tea]

If you run CtS, swords to plowshares becomes a relevant point, too. Assuming your opponent has two swords to plowshares in his hand, it takes 4 turns until you can put your opponent under pressure. So I consider running 3morphling. However, in the late game I tend to be mana flooded and CtS can make use of those lands.

[Jak]

So I was really working with this for the Goyfless tournament, but I feel it is pretty fun (and of course good) so I thought posting it would help me out and maybe offer up some ideas.

4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
14 Island
2 Academy Ruins
4 Mox Diamond

1 Morphling
1 Call the Skybreak

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Mana Leak
2 Cryptic Command

4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Fact or Fiction

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Vedalken Shackles
3 Engineered Explosives

SB
Negates, more finishers, Plagues, Smothers, Repeals, etc

So I feel Chalice is pretty damn strong in this deck. No one drops makes it completely one sided which is nice because it shuts off Spell Snare, Swords to Plowshares, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, Ponder, Top, Stifle, Dreadnought, Thoughtseize, Aether Vial, etc. It also helps with combo.

With Chalice, accel to get it out earlier is really needed. I am on the fence on how to go about it. Mox Diamond is definitely stronger of the two, getting me any color I want, not making me get rid of goods, etc. However, it makes me run more lands. This isn't horrible because getting lands is awesome, but it does eat up two slots since with Chrome Mox, I would run 4 Mox and 22 Land. Still needs testing but I am leaning towards Diamond since it makes the mana base a lot more stable.

The color splash is mostly for EE but realizing that making the splash slightly bigger doesn't hurt too bad, I thought black was the best way to take it. It offers Engineered Plague which makes the Goblins MU pretty decent, targetted removal in Smother, mass removal in Damnation, and a decent card in Tombstalker. I am still working with the board since there are a few ways to go with it. However, I really want Smother in the main.

Thoughts?

[Doks]

*bump*

If you already do splash then I would recommend running some removal you mentioned MB.

Another issue:

Many people suggested Cunning Wish or several other utility options like Merchant Scroll and the like, but has anyone thought of Mystical Tutor yet?
I'm serious!

.
.
.

I admit, the build has to be prepared for a more Mystical Tutor use, but are these changes that heavy?

Just a little core of such a build from the top off my head:

23-24 Land

1-2 Morphlings
1 Cts

10-14 Counters
8-12 Draw'n'Search (including Accumulated Knowledge and 4x FoF)
8-14 Removal and 3CC Bombs (including 1-2 copies of bounce)
1-2 Mystical Tutor

Sure, it does create card disadvantage, a thing MUC really hates, but that's what Accumulated Knowledge and FoF are for.
In exchange you get increased chances of finding what you really need in certain situations for the cost of U.

You have established control and need to win soon? Go and grab CtS.
Your opponent played a nasty high CC bomb you can't use Keg / EE for? Go and get you a copy of bounce.
You need a powerful draw now in form of the 3rd / 4th AK? Go, get that one.


Just a vague idea for now, but I'll probably go and try out.

[Julian23]

Just out of curiosity: What's the general attitude towards Meditate in this deck as a 3 or 4 of? I'm about to make us of it as it seems very promosing
Talking about permanent based MUC, of course.

[4eak]

@ Julian23


What's the general attitude towards Meditate in this deck as a 3 or 4 of?

When searching this thread, you'll find there are 14 posts including the word Meditate (besides yours). You can gather the general attitude from there.

Meditate pales in comparison to our other options. Without a way to curb the drawback (like Solidarity), the card just isn't viable.





peace,
4eak

[Mordel]

Meditate goes against the grain of the archetype's core strategy as far milking as much possible advatage out of your opponent as possible and capitalizing on their errors as often as possible. Meditate gives them a timewalk for four cards. People go into great detail about how and why the card sucks, but at the heart of it all is you giving your opponent two turns to set things up and a good chance that you will effectively be giving them an extra card for a cantrip because you will be using at least one normal counter and more likely than not an FoW to halt their mischief. Terrible.

For one more mana, you could be playing a FoF and digging five deep or you could be playing ancestral visions, which I find to be an awesome card all around. I'd even play concentrate, whispers or even opportunity over meditate.

[jthanatos]

I just got knocked out of the top 8 in the goyfless tourny running MUC.

My list:

// Lands
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
23 [ST] Island (4)

// Creatures
1 [VI] Rainbow Efreet
2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation

// Spells
1 [LRW] Cryptic Command
3 [REW] Powder Keg
3 [US] Back to Basics
4 [DLM] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [EVE] Call the Skybreaker
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
4 [TSP] Think Twice
3 [SH] Mana Leak

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [CNF] Telemin Performance
SB: 4 [IN] Disrupt

Report is as follows (I apologize to any of my opponents if I mess some match details up, as it has been a long tournement.)

Round 1 vs Eldritch Alien playing The Mighty Quinn

Game 1: I keep a hand with Shackles, Force, Think Twice, Rainbow Efreet and some lands. I end up pitching Rainbow to stop an early painter combo. By midgame, I have the board pretty much locked down, but he has a full fist of cards to stop any shenanigans. I dig and dig, but both sowers and the Call are in my last 5 cards. I get decked.

Game 2: Brought in disrupt, telemin, and 2 relic. Take out 2 b2b, 1 think twice, 1 FoF, 1 shackles, 3 keg. I got lucky on this after my dumb sideboarding. He turn 3 chants me, which gets disrupted. Turn 4 he chants again and drops stick with abeyance on it. I play my only remaing b2b with 2 of his lands being sheets, and cryptic command the scepter when he uses it my next turn. Rainbow efreet comes down and goes to town.

Game 3: I bring back in kegs and take out 1 relic 2 disrupts. Long match, with lots of back and forth, but I take two dragons with telemin, and eventually get there with efreet.

1-0, 2-1 games


Round 2 vs Mujadaddy playing Pox/MBC

This was rough as MWS kept taking dumps on our games, probably took 14 games to get our 3 in.

Game 1: I just get a nutty hand and draw against him, shackling any creature he plays and countering all his removal.

Game 2: Brought in disrupts, telemins, and relics for b2b, command, 1 sower, 1 fof, and 1 think twice. He shreds my hand and board early with multiple hymns and small poxes. Tombstalker teaches me a lesson about big creatures as I stare at 3 islands and a shackles on my board.

Game 3: He gets some early pressure with recurring necroplasms, and I hold him off with shackles and efreet. Eventually, I rip a necroplasm of my own with telemin and win with a slight damage advantage with repeated instances of Elemental, go.

2-0, 4-2 games

Round 3 vs Deadlock playing either dreadstill...I think.

Game 1: He beats me down early with a bob, but I take it away with shackles and land an Efreet. My own force of wills turn against me knocking me to 2 and I have to keep giving the bob back, but the damage is done, and he can't recover before my beater gets there.

Game 2: Bring in chalices, take out command, 1 think twice, 1 fof.
This game was just rough, as he had to mull hard, then I shackles one bob and sowered another. When MUC is allowed to draw 3 cards a turn, the game goes sour fast.

3-0, 6-2 games

Round 4 vs Melman playing Deep Blue

Game 1: I get a recurring powder keg online, followed by shackles destroying his mana and taking his threats.

Game 2: From what I saw in game 1 I thought I was playing affinity, so no boarding on my side. I mull to five. He forces through a Master of Etherium and 2 (or maybe 3) myr enforcers in one turn. I savagely rip an island off the top of my deck and enter my scoop phase.

Game 3: Long drawn out game. I land an early B2B, and he forces through an Esperzoa letting him slowly untap his artifact lands. He gets a Master of Etherium down next turn and hurts me hard. I force a shackles into play and take the Esperzoa, but my keg gets countered and I have to keep giving the Zoa back. We end up stalled with me drawing tons of counter magic and him drawing a bunch of other other threats. Finally, I get a second shackles down and he ends up with Esperzoa in his hand every turn. Master slowly pokes him to death until I find Call the Skybreaker.

4-0, 8-3 games

Round 5 vs 4eak, ID

4-0-1

Round 6 vs Van Phanel ID

4-0-2

My viscious curbstomping at the hands of pi4meterftw will be editted in after he posts his list.


Props:
-Great games against some great opponents
-Telemin Performance, seriously, that card does bad things to people.
-Aggro Zombies for running the thing and Magic Fanatic stepping up in the top 8
-Tarmowhat?

Slops:
-Relic for still hanging out in my sideboard. Wished it was propaganda or something at least once.
-Me for sideboarding like a fool
-MWS for dropping connections
-The lack of tarmogoyf. It is by far my most common way to win when playing MUC.

[mujadaddy]

Round 2 vs Mujadaddy playing Pox/MBC

This was rough as MWS kept taking dumps on our games, probably took 14 games to get our 3 in.

-Telemin Performance, seriously, that card does bad things to people.Telemin was certainly an all-star, letting you run virtual threats at my expense, just like shackles & sower.

I think all those games were decided by the opening hands, though. In many instances, I had great hands and nearly won...until MWS crapped out on us.

The specific matchup of MUC vs Pox is probably 50/50. My particular build, though, is tuned against opponents running threats, which MUC doesn't, so you took it 60/40, which in 14 games was about 8-6 :laugh:

Real counterspells > Counterbalance :wink:

[Nihil Credo]

Round 1 vs Eldritch Alien playing The Mighty Quinn

Game 1: I keep a hand with Shackles, Force, Think Twice, Rainbow Efreet and some lands. I end up pitching Rainbow to stop an early painter combo. By midgame, I have the board pretty much locked down, but he has a full fist of cards to stop any shenanigans. I dig and dig, but both sowers and the Call are in my last 5 cards. I get decked.

How exactly did that happen? He had no outs to Academy Ruins other than the 1-2 copies of Grindstone, which you had all the tools to fight (counters and Kegs).

[jthanatos]

How exactly did that happen? He had no outs to Academy Ruins other than the 1-2 copies of Grindstone, which you had all the tools to fight (counters and Kegs).

To be quite honest, due to a play mistake on my part. I played a second back to basics.

[Eldritch Alien]

I've gone through the logs of our match again, just to refresh the games in my mind. Telemin Performance was the card that owned me, both games 2 and 3. I remember having to read the card the first time you played it...and my jaw dropped. Without Telemin Performance, I would have had a good shot at taking a 2nd game in the match.

I wasn't prepared for it, it was hard to answer, and it changed how I had to play the remaining games. I'm going to try Telemin Performance in my MUC.

I was surprised you came back in g2. I dropped that lock pretty early in the game, with the protection of 3 Orim's chants to force it through, but you seemed to have the perfect hand to answer it.

You made a deck with very relevant cards for our match, and you played your deck very well. Thanks for the games.

[Tea]

What do you think of maindecking 4 disrupt in place of the 5th-8th draw spell?

[jthanatos]

What do you think of maindecking 4 disrupt in place of the 5th-8th draw spell?

I tried that idea briefly, and it just doesn't work well. If you catch an early game cantrip with it, it can help swing tempo for you...but MUC doesn't do much with gained tempo. Also, mid to late game, it is infuriating against most decks to draw as it is useless against most threats they play and can't just replace itself or dig for answers like the rest of our card draw suite can. In the end, it still is best left in the sideboard to bring in for dead cards against combo.

[DeMarki]

Is there any reason why not to run 4 Wastelands in a control deck such as MUC? I checked most decklists and people run 22-25 Lands, which I believe is too much.

Played a similar deck in Vintage and I was manaflooding a lot even with 22 lands I was playing. :)

[Shawn]

Wastelands aren't that exciting in this deck; Back to Basics does what you would want Waste to do and more so.

Even with 24 lands and 4 Impulse, I've found sometimes that hasn't been enough. Brainstorm and Impulse help alleviate this problem in a fetchland version. This deck is very mana hungry and the key spells cost three and 4, and with just Impulse as manipulation it sometimes misses its land drops. Mana flood should rarely be an issue, since you run so many card advantage spells to keep drawing business. Also, Call the Skybreaker is a great way to get rid of excess lands.

[Misplayer]

I've found 23 to be the perfect amount. Playing 4 Ancestral Vision and 4 Spell Snare certainly helps a lot. Making good mulligan decisions is key. A 1-land hand is never good. A 2-land hand can be keepable (if you have AV/Snare/CSpell/Keg - these spells will keep you in the game until you draw into a third land, and 3 is the magic number). A 3-land hand and you're (usually) looking good to win the game.

As important as card advantage is in MUC, I'd rather mull more frequently than draw lands when you want business spells. Once you hit 5-6 lands you don't want to be drawing too many more. Also, in the midgame, if you don't have any draw spells, topdecking three islands in a row can cost you a game. In fact, I've lost more games to mana-flood in MUC than to any other cards. This is probably because the ONLY thing MUC does with mana is play spells (and occasionally activate Morphling), hence, land is usually not good without spells. This may seem like a really stupid statement (and it probably is), but most other decks can do lots of things with their lands beyond just play spells.

[Doks]

That's why I'm trying Sensei's Divining Top in MUC as a secondary "Cantrip" in Fetchland-Versions as a 3 of.
With 3 EE, 3 Shackles and Ruins it makes TfK playable as a 2 of (still testing).

Problem with MUC's draw suite has always been that pure CA either costs you

a) 4 Mana (FoF)
b) time in form of being delayed (AV)
c) too many slots (Accu / Intu / Merchant Scroll)

so TfK fills either the role as an early game filter or as later CA as you can wait until your hand needs improvement increasing the chance of having an artifact ready to discard.

So this is what I'm currently testing in Fetchland-MUC:

4 Brainstorm
4 Fact or Fiction
3 SDT
2 TfK

May look strange, but just try SDT (without CB ;) ) and you will see why it is included even in UWx Landstill.

[Drizzy]

I've always wanted to build MUC in Legacy but somehow I have always dropped the project out. Now I'm really going to make one (have most of the cards for it) and have several questions regarding to it. And since I'm going on budget, I will run just basics and most likely B2B.

1. Is it worth to sacrifice few slots for CB-Top engine? I know that MUC has other ways to generate CA but I think it is really strong against aggro. It doesn't require much mana to use yet it can totally wreck some decks up. However, I haven't seen many people to run these so I started wondering if it's better to spend those slots for something else? Especially since I won't be running fetches for shuffle effects?

2. Drawing? Is 4x AK + couple of facts yet good or should I run something like AV? I like the fact that AV gives 3 cards for 1 mana but I think it's terrible if you need the cards right away.

3. Win conditions. I am thinking about running Morphling + Meloku or 2 Morphlings. Morphling requires a lot of mana to use but damn I love that guy and couldn't imagine playing MUC without it.

4. Cantrips. I really like Brainstorm since it is 1cc and instant and can be used defensively against hand disruption (and also setting up for CB if running them). But without shuffling effects it feels pretty weak. Is Ponder or Impulse better alternative? I like impulse since it can dig deep and I can dump away the cards I don't need plus it's instant. Or is there anything else that's worth running?

5. Counters and amount of them. I think 4x FoW and Counterspell is auto include, but what's good split between Daze, Spell Snare, Mana Leak etc.? I don't have any Cryptic Commands but maybe could afford getting couple, are they worth it?

They might be pretty stupid questions but since I haven't played MUC in ages and there are lot of new cool cards, I'd love to hear opinions from more experienced MUC players.

[Shawon]

I've found 23 to be the perfect amount. Playing 4 Ancestral Vision and 4 Spell Snare certainly helps a lot. Making good mulligan decisions is key. A 1-land hand is never good. A 2-land hand can be keepable (if you have AV/Snare/CSpell/Keg - these spells will keep you in the game until you draw into a third land, and 3 is the magic number). A 3-land hand and you're (usually) looking good to win the game.

I don't think 'making good mulligan decisions' justifies running 23 land or fewer. This is why MUC runs 24-25 land, to lower the risk of mulliganing in the first place.


1. Is it worth to sacrifice few slots for CB-Top engine?

You need to sacrifice more than a few slots if you want to run CB-Top. You have to change the mana curve of the deck. You can run CB-Top, but the deck becomes CounterTop, not MUC anymore.


2. Drawing? Is 4x AK + couple of facts yet good or should I run something like AV? I like the fact that AV gives 3 cards for 1 mana but I think it's terrible if you need the cards right away.

Intuition+AK never sees serious play in Legacy anymore, let alone just AK. AV is way better. Every few pages in this thread, people always talk about running TfK, but you never hear from them again about their results, which is probably because those people figure out on their own that TfK isn't worth it.


3. Win conditions. I am thinking about running Morphling + Meloku or 2 Morphlings. Morphling requires a lot of mana to use but damn I love that guy and couldn't imagine playing MUC without it.

Morphling is a standard win condition. People don't run Meloku anymore in MUC, probably because it doesn't protect itself any removal other than burn.
In the past, people tried out Call the Skybreaker. I never liked the card because it was sorcery speed, but it's nevertheless powerful in MUC. But it may not be that good anymore, since you see Relic everywhere, and running CtS hinders you from running Relic yourself.


4. Cantrips. I really like Brainstorm since it is 1cc and instant and can be used defensively against hand disruption (and also setting up for CB if running them). But without shuffling effects it feels pretty weak. Is Ponder or Impulse better alternative? I like impulse since it can dig deep and I can dump away the cards I don't need plus it's instant. Or is there anything else that's worth running?

I don't like running cantrips myself, since you have to shave off certain 4-ofs to accommodate them. However, you don't really need any more cantrips outside of Brainstorm, Ponder, and Think Twice. Impulse is worse than all of the aforementioned cantrips so you never have to think about running it.


5. Counters and amount of them. I think 4x FoW and Counterspell is auto include, but what's good split between Daze, Spell Snare, Mana Leak etc.? I don't have any Cryptic Commands but maybe could afford getting couple, are they worth it?

Daze is counterproductive in MUC, as setting yourself back a land drop is suicide. Spell Snare is amazing. Mana Leak is ok, but I never tested it. You should save your money and not buy Cryptic Command. It's not worth it in MUC. The cantrip and Fog effect are practically irrelevant, especially the Fog effect since you can't capitalize off the tempo the way Faeries does.

[Illissius]

With Chalice, accel to get it out earlier is really needed. I am on the fence on how to go about it. Mox Diamond is definitely stronger of the two, getting me any color I want, not making me get rid of goods, etc. However, it makes me run more lands. This isn't horrible because getting lands is awesome, but it does eat up two slots since with Chrome Mox, I would run 4 Mox and 22 Land. Still needs testing but I am leaning towards Diamond since it makes the mana base a lot more stable.

How about Ancient Tomb? In a way it's even card advantage, being two lands in one. Unfortunately, it costs life.

[Shawn]

But it may not be that good anymore, since you see Relic everywhere, and running CtS hinders you from running Relic yourself

Not necessarily, you can retrace Call then respond with blowing up your own Relic. I run Relic (and Crypt because Dredge usually runs Needle) in my sideboard and the two conflicting isn't really a problem. Unless you Fact away a Call, your own Relics won't remove it a large percentage of the time. Also, most decks run Relic sideboard. Are they really going to be siding it in for one card? If they do, just smash them with a 5/5, one of your other two win-conditions, or a creature stolen via Shackles. (Yes, if I was playing Landstill against MUC I would side in Relic, but that's because it cycles whereas Swords to Plowshares does nothing in that mu.)


I've found 23 to be the perfect amount. Playing 4 Ancestral Vision and 4 Spell Snare certainly helps a lot.


The problem with banking on Ancestral Vision to hit land drops is it doesn't resolve until turn five at the earliest. If you've already missed a land drop of two, the ones you may get from Vision are most likely too late.


In fact, I've lost more games to mana-flood in MUC than to any other cards. This is probably because the ONLY thing MUC does with mana is play spells (and occasionally activate Morphling), hence, land is usually not good without spells.

I think it's the opposite, but in a less obvious way. Loosing games to mana screw always aren't always "He Sinkholed and Wastelanded me to oblivion", it's more subtle. I can't count how many times I've played against Counterbalance thresh with either landstill or MUC, and have lost games where I missed a few land drops early, eventually built up a bunch lands, and lost. I was so far behind the lands coming late didn't make a difference. MUC is very, very mana-intensive, with Fact costing 4, Shackles essentially costing 5, and it's win-conditions (which will sometimes need to be cast to be used defensively) all cost at least 6, if you don't want to get annihilated by a single piece of removal.

[Jason]

Morphling is a standard win condition. People don't run Meloku anymore in MUC, probably because it doesn't protect itself any removal other than burn.
In the past, people tried out Call the Skybreaker. I never liked the card because it was sorcery speed, but it's nevertheless powerful in MUC. But it may not be that good anymore, since you see Relic everywhere, and running CtS hinders you from running Relic yourself.


Morphling may be a standard win condition but I still feel it is not even worth running anymore. Rainbow Efreet is just better overall. It CAN come down a turn earlier if necessary, but basically Morphling and Efreet are coming down at the earliest around the same time (turn 6). Efreet has been much better because it can avoid Wrath of God and Pernicious Deed. Sure Morphling is a 4-turn clock opposed to Efreet's 7-turn (usually 6 because of fetches and otherwise), but the additional vulnerability of Morphling is rarely worth the cost of gaining 2 or 3 turns. I've said that numerous times and I will continue to say it.

Also, Call the Skybreaker is a house! Opposed to Morphling or Rainbow Efreet (or some other win conditions), you don't have to worry about throwing it away to the graveyard in a Fact or Fiction pile. Plus you don't have to worry about it getting COUNTERED. With Morphling or Efreet, an opponent forcing through a counterspell spells game over for your win condition. Because of this, Call the Skybreaker can come along to save the day. With Call the Skybreaker in your deck, you really only need to run 2 win-conditions (unless you count Sower of Temptation or Vedalken Shackles as a win condition) because it is the win condition that will never stop coming. Wrath stops Morphling. Counters stop Efreet and Morphling. They only slow down Call the Skybreaker. Also, almost no one runs Relic of Progenitus main deck, and if your opponent is boarding it in for one card, I think you can feel fairly confident of your ability to win game 2 or 3. Plus, as Shawn said, Call the Skybreaker does not keep you from running your own Relics. But even if you do feel scared of running Call + Relic, you can always just run Tormod's Crypt. I heard that's also pretty decent against most graveyard decks. A lot of decks just can't deal with the inevitability of Call the Skybreaker, and I have found it to be the most amazing win condition MUC has.



I don't like running cantrips myself, since you have to shave off certain 4-ofs to accommodate them. However, you don't really need any more cantrips outside of Brainstorm, Ponder, and Think Twice. Impulse is worse than all of the aforementioned cantrips so you never have to think about running it.


That's not a fair statement at all. Impulse is not the worst of those cards. It digs 4-deep and can easily help you find answers at instant-speed. Sometimes those answers ARE lands, but the ability to go four cards down and find your answer make it awesome. Brainstorm is better IF and only IF you are running fetchlands or some sort of shuffle effect. The number of bombs this deck runs is so great that filtering four cards down to find just the right answer is huge. I either run 4x Impulse or 4x Think Twice in my deck as my card draw 5-8 because they are the cheapest and most efficient in a deck with no shuffle effects.



Daze is counterproductive in MUC, as setting yourself back a land drop is suicide. Spell Snare is amazing. Mana Leak is ok, but I never tested it. You should save your money and not buy Cryptic Command. It's not worth it in MUC. The cantrip and Fog effect are practically irrelevant, especially the Fog effect since you can't capitalize off the tempo the way Faeries does.

Mana Leak is so good. It's nearly always a hard-counter. When it isn't, you will be forcing your opponent to usually tap down non-basics which will open him up for having a Back to Basics thrown down. 1x Cryptic Command is a great silver bullet to have in your deck. The "Fog effect" is NOT irrelevant. Playing against Landstill or Dreadstill, after my opponent activated their Mishra's Factories, I tapped them down and drew a card. Next turn, Back to Basics. Win. It's also great for a counterspell + bounce Counterbalance or counterspell + bounce Humility or just good for tapping down manlands. The cantrip is rarely exciting but since the card is so versatile, it is a necessity to have at least one in the deck.

Aside from all that, I want to know if anyone besides my good friend jthanatos has tested Telemin Performance as a valid sideboard card. I was the first to suggest it in our group of friends. I haven't had a time where I want it in my sideboard but I know it destroys combo decks, really hurts landstill, and is amazing in general against a lot of Legacy decks seeing as so few creatures are run. Any thoughts on the card?

[Barsoom]

Another nice finish (7° out of 60) by soulles with his MUC deck here (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=26640).

Nice list as usual, only you cut Powder Keg for Divert? Did it worked good?

If you got time to write a report too will be nice, your version of MUC seems the best actually, results speaks by itself.

[DeMarki]

Why isn't this deck playing Fetchlands? You got too many islands which will be useless lategame, while Fetchlands will help out thining the deck lategame and add shuffle effects as well. :)

[THEchubbymuffin]

Why isn't this deck playing Fetchlands? You got too many islands which will be useless lategame, while Fetchlands will help out thining the deck lategame and add shuffle effects as well. :)

#1 Because Fetchlands thinning ability is not good at all. There is an analysis on this somewhere.
#2 Some MUC decks don't play Brainstorm. So shuffle effects are not needed.
#3 MUC doesn't want Moon effects to matter.
#4 Refer to #1. People need to get this through their heads.
#5 Getting a land stifled and losing a turn sucks. And if you counter that stifle, then you just wasted a counter. (had you been playing island this could have been avoided)
#6 Dealing damage to yourself is not good when playing control decks, unless for a good cause, which #1-#5 proves its not.

[DeMarki]

#1 Because Fetchlands thinning ability is not good at all. There is an analysis on this somewhere.
#2 Some MUC decks don't play Brainstorm. So shuffle effects are not needed.


Deck thinning might not be noticable early to midgame but drawing 1-2 extra spells lategame instead of lands it's worth the damage taken.

I play this version of the deck with Impulse, putting spells I might need on the bottom of my library, thus I believe a shuffle effect is always welcome.

[Zir]

Playing Impulse is another reason fetches shouldn't be played.
When playing Impulse, you'll probably take the card best for the current situation. If we assume the 4 cards you saw are no better in quality than the rest of the deck (which is statistically probable), the 3 you'll be putting on the bottom will average a lower quality than the rest of your deck (since you chose the best). This creates a slightly higher quality of topdecks for the rest of the game, which you'll be undoing by fetching.

Chubby has made a good point about why they shouldn't be played here.
The math concerning fetchlands and deckthinning can be found here (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/print.asp?ID=3096).

[4eak]

This has been discussed many times.

Fetchlands are perfectly acceptable with Brainstorm or Engineered Explosives. These cards are usually only played in draw/go versions of MUC. Versions which use more permanents often don't play play either of the mentioned cards, and thus have little reason to play fetchlands.

Deck thinning isn't as meaningful as some people thought, but it still does something, especially in decks that tend to draw half their library each game. The lifeloss for the thinning effect alone isn't worth it though.

Some people don't like Brainstorm /shrug, tough. Fetchlands and Brainstorm have proven themselves in tournament quality MUC decks many times.

@ Zir

I agree that shuffling is generally not wanted after an impulse. But, I think it is important to remember there are also times when you're forced to choose between good cards that you don't want on the bottom of your library. Sometimes I really do want to shuffle after Impulse, sometimes it just doesn't matter, and sometimes I am glad that junk is on the bottom.





peace,
4eak

[DeMarki]

Lands:
24 Island

Counters:
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Force Spike

Draw:
4 Ophidian
4 Fact or Fiction
3 Impulse

Control:
3 Back to Basics
4 Powder Keg
4 Sower of Temptation

Beef:
2 Morphling

I'm currently running this version of MUC and it served me well so far, pretty decent board control, Sowers to steal the fatties and Kegs to deal with weenies, loads of counters and Ophidian/Fact for massive card draw.

[Arsenal]

Personally, I'd run Spell Snare in place of Force Spike; 2cmc threats are far, far, too prevelant and Spell Snare can hit stuff no matter what turn it is while Force Spike's effectiveness really decreases after turn 4/5.

Also, I'd run no less than 4 Back to Basics; it's the only reason MUC can still be competitive.

[Zir]

4eak: True, but statistically seen you'll have to choose between 4 great cards and 4 horrible cards equally often, with something in the middle occuring a lot more than either. No shuffle effects are preferred imo.

[DeMarki]

Chubby has made a good point about why they shouldn't be played here.
The math concerning fetchlands and deckthinning can be found here (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/print.asp?ID=3096).

I read an interesting Legacy article that says otherwise though, check it out:
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15815.html


Playing Impulse is another reason fetches shouldn't be played.
When playing Impulse, you'll probably take the card best for the current situation. If we assume the 4 cards you saw are no better in quality than the rest of the deck (which is statistically probable), the 3 you'll be putting on the bottom will average a lower quality than the rest of your deck (since you chose the best). This creates a slightly higher quality of topdecks for the rest of the game, which you'll be undoing by fetching.

This is actually my major concern regarding Fetchlands, even after tons of playtesting I cannot decide whether the shuffle effect helps or negates one major advantage Impulse provides, putting cards you might not need on the botton of your library. Any suggestions?

***Big concern incoming***

And one other thing that made me wonder, I read articles and primers on MUC for both Legacy and Vintage, and while in Legacy people keep reminding how important constant land drops are therefore they run 24 Islands(no Fetchlands, no Wastelands), ALL Vintage MUC decks I checked play less than 9 Islands along with 6+ Fetchlands and 4 Wastelands.

May I ask why? It's the same deck in both Vintage and Legacy(the only difference being the Vintage version running Mana Drains and Power9), so how can the Vintage version run only 8 Islands, while the Legacy version runs 24?

Since Duals + Fetchlands + Wastelands are legal in Legacy, why does the Vintage version of MUC run 6 Fetchlands + 4 Wastelands?

I just don't get it.

[Soulles]

Another nice finish (7° out of 60) by soulles with his MUC deck here (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=26640).

Nice list as usual, only you cut Powder Keg for Divert? Did it worked good?

If you got time to write a report too will be nice, your version of MUC seems the best actually, results speaks by itself.

Hmm report, been a while so i don't remember everything.

The reason for dropping Powder Keg is the disappearance of Nimble Mongoose and mass tokens (like Empty the Warrens and Ichorid). They are not present anymore in the Dutch/Belgium Meta.

I played Divert, because i got sick of ending twice on the 10th place in the two previous tournaments. Losing to Eva Green in the decisive match for the top8 really sucks.

Yes Divert did help a bit, but i only had it 5 times in my hand in the entire tournament. So i can't say if the card is good or bad yet, more testing is needed.

As for the tournament it self, i lost first match (to the winner of the tournament). Did win the first game, but then hello Choke and whatever screws blue decks. Won the other 4 matches and IDed my self in to the top8.

Due the new card, Qsuali Pridemage (However it is spelled) i sincerely advise everyone to play 4 Spell Snares. This card makes you cry.



As for the Fetchland discussion. Not one person has mentioned the factor that you could shuffle 3-7 Islands on top of your deck after Fetching. I have been there and done that, so i rather shuffle my deck once and hope for the best.
Deck thinning means nothing if you screw your self while shuffling and the chance for this phenomena occurring is there.

[Arsenal]

And one other thing that made me wonder, I read articles and primers on MUC for both Legacy and Vintage, and while in Legacy people keep reminding how important constant land drops are therefore they run 24 Islands(no Fetchlands, no Wastelands), ALL Vintage MUC decks I checked play less than 9 Islands along with 6+ Fetchlands and 4 Wastelands.

May I ask why? It's the same deck in both Vintage and Legacy(the only difference being the Vintage version running Mana Drains and Power9), so how can the Vintage version run only 8 Islands, while the Legacy version runs 24?

Since Duals + Fetchlands + Wastelands are legal in Legacy, why does the Vintage version of MUC run 6 Fetchlands + 4 Wastelands?

I just don't get it.

To the best of my knowledge, MUC hasn't been truly viable/competitive in Vintage since the restriction of Fact or Fiction.

[DeMarki]

To the best of my knowledge, MUC hasn't been truly viable/competitive in Vintage since the restriction of Fact or Fiction.

Not really, most decks I checked rely on cheap artifacts(Moxen, Chalice) Thirst for Knowledge, Tinker -> Colossus/Leviathan combo mostly, thus playing Mana Leak instead of Counterspell for a 1st turn counter with a random Mox played.

The thing is all Vintage versions of MUC run 8-9 Islands, 6 Fetchlands, 4 Wastelands and a Strip Mine. Why does the Legacy MUC version run 24 Islands instead?

[Arsenal]

Not really, most decks I checked rely on cheap artifacts(Moxen, Chalice) Thirst for Knowledge, Tinker -> Colossus/Leviathan combo mostly, thus playing Mana Leak instead of Counterspell for a 1st turn counter with a random Mox played.

The thing is all Vintage versions of MUC run 8-9 Islands, 6 Fetchlands, 4 Wastelands and a Strip Mine. Why does the Legacy MUC version run 24 Islands instead?

Probably because we run 4 Back to Basics... and would run 8 if we had the chance.

Also, I'd be interested in knowing where you're finding this data. I checked deckcheck.net, and I haven't found anything that remotely resemble MUC in Vintage past 2007.

EDIT: Also, Vintage MUC has access to Moxen/Lotus/Vault/etc. and Mana Drain. Those cards alone will greatly scew your Land:non-land count by a lot. Just something to keep in mind when constructing a Vintage deck.

[Shawon]

Has anyone considered this card as supplementary control-magic to Vedalken Shackles:

Dominate X1UU
Instant
Gain control of target creature with converted mana cost X or less. (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)

It's blue, and it's an instant, so it isn't a permanent that needs to stay in play for you to keep the creature. Plus, with a cost of X1UU, you can reliably dodge Counterbalance.

[Captain_Morgan]

Has anyone considered this card as supplementary control-magic to Vedalken Shackles:

Dominate X1UU
Instant
Gain control of target creature with converted mana cost X or less. (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)

It's blue, and it's an instant, so it isn't a permanent that needs to stay in play for you to keep the creature. Plus, with a cost of X1UU, you can reliably dodge Counterbalance.

Too expensive, too slow. For example a Goyf you're investing in directly 3UU just to take it. Shackles you can invest in that over two turns rather than an upfront cost.

Bribery is superior to it, since you just whip out whatever you want from their deck being derelict of all protection issues. Treachery as well, although with grips and timing rules you'll remain tapped out and it's a tad too slow against certain decks, well both are.

Shackles is just the superior card, reusible, cheap, and effective. It also dodges CB.

[Jak]

Too expensive, too slow. For example a Goyf you're investing in directly 3UU just to take it. Shackles you can invest in that over two turns rather than an upfront cost.

Bribery is superior to it, since you just whip out whatever you want from their deck being derelict of all protection issues. Treachery as well, although with grips and timing rules you'll remain tapped out and it's a tad too slow against certain decks, well both are.

Shackles is just the superior card, reusible, cheap, and effective. It also dodges CB.

Umm Bribery does nothing to affect the board while this takes a creature that they played. Huge difference.

This is also an instant, which makes it superior in a lot of ways. The biggest one is not being able to get Gripped or Pridemaged. And I would like to add that this dodges CB as well.

[Shawon]

Shackles is just the superior card, reusible, cheap, and effective. It also dodges CB.

I know, that's why I suggested Dominate as supplementary control magic to Shackles. People here are suggesting Sower of Temptation and Threads of Disloyalty as additional control magic to Shackles. I think Dominate is better than both cards, in MUC, since Dominate is instant speed, unlike the other two.

[jthanatos]

I will concede it is usually better than threads, but sower is great at addressing a number of weaknesses usually involved with MUC. It is a great control card that can give us a threat in a pinch. It steals dreadnaught, big goyfs, and tombstalker without breaking a sweat, and more importantly gives us the ability to put people (and by people I mean combo and landstill) on an actual clock game 1. Also, it tends to mess with people's boarding strategies against us, as many opponents will keep in creature removal to deal with it.

Now, I have not tested dominate, and I could very much see it run in the 1-2 flexible spots most MUC builds have, depending on your meta, but I would would be hard pressed to replace either shackles or sower with it.

[Arsenal]

Sower is often run in conjunction with Kira, eating up additional slots. If you're not running Sower + Kira, and Sower only, then you're spending countermagic protecting Sower from all sorts of removal. I've never liked Sower in MUC, but if it's going to be played, I don't see how you can play it without Kira (or something other universal shroud-esque effect).

[Soulles]

I will concede it is usually better than threads, but sower is great at addressing a number of weaknesses usually involved with MUC. It is a great control card that can give us a threat in a pinch. It steals dreadnaught, big goyfs, and tombstalker without breaking a sweat, and more importantly gives us the ability to put people (and by people I mean combo and landstill) on an actual clock game 1. Also, it tends to mess with people's boarding strategies against us, as many opponents will keep in creature removal to deal with it.

Now, I have not tested dominate, and I could very much see it run in the 1-2 flexible spots most MUC builds have, depending on your meta, but I would would be hard pressed to replace either shackles or sower with it.

Actually 2 of the 3 creatures you mention here are better off being Dominated than Sowered.

For Dreadnaught, it is 4 mana instant speed, for Goyf it is 5.

I think it is a card that is worth testing and i might do so in the future. I just think cards like these and Telemin Preformance fail versus Merfolk, Zoo, Goblin and other aggro weenie decks.

[jthanatos]

The first paragraph of my post was merely a breakdown of common things that sower helps MUC steal and the other things it brings to the table, as opposed to shackles, not a comment on sower vs dominate.

Also, I have never proposed telemin performance as anything but a sideboard card. It is only sometimes useful, but the times it is, it just wins games.

[deadlock]

You can always find arguments for and against Sower / steal effects.

Concerning Sower, some prefer to play it maindeck, but to be on the save side i prefer to side them in, while presenting a maindeck where spot removal is (next to) useless.
So that you opponent either sides out spot removal directly or if he leaves it in, its only useful against my 2-3 Sowers i brought in.

[DeMarki]

You can always find arguments for and against Sower / steal effects.

Concerning Sower, some prefer to play it maindeck, but to be on the save side i prefer to side them in, while presenting a maindeck where spot removal is (next to) useless.
So that you opponent either sides out spot removal directly or if he leaves it in, its only useful against my 2-3 Sowers i brought in.

The thing is apart from the fact it can steal fatties, Sower is also threat and it has flying thus putting additional pressure on your opponent. You got counterspells to protect it anyway.

[Jason]

With the new rulings starting July 11, is there any reason to play a non-Call the Skybreaker win condition in this deck anymore?

Rainbow Efreet is still ok but is now less than optimal because it can't eat creatures before phasing out.

Morphling is now a flying Hill Giant with shroud (unless they find a way to take that away too).

Meloku is looking like a possible option but it dies to removal.

I feel 2x Call the Skybreaker couldn't possibly be the best option.

The question is, with the win-conditions not being bombs anymore and Alara Reborn having Qasali Pridemage, is this deck even viable anymore?

[Dembones]

With the new rulings starting July 11, is there any reason to play a non-Call the Skybreaker win condition in this deck anymore?

Rainbow Efreet is still ok but is now less than optimal because it can't eat creatures before phasing out.

Morphling is now a flying Hill Giant with shroud (unless they find a way to take that away too).

Meloku is looking like a possible option but it dies to removal.

I feel 2x Call the Skybreaker couldn't possibly be the best option.

The question is, with the win-conditions not being bombs anymore and Alara Reborn having Qasali Pridemage, is this deck even viable anymore?


I'm pretty unhappy about the combat changes, myself, but when you drop your creature in mono blue, doesn't that usually signify that the game is over for the other guy anyways? Still, I'm really dissapointed, because the Efreet has been my kill in my muc with quite a bit of success lately.

[Jason]

I'm pretty unhappy about the combat changes, myself, but when you drop your creature in mono blue, doesn't that usually signify that the game is over for the other guy anyways? Still, I'm really dissapointed, because the Efreet has been my kill in my muc with quite a bit of success lately.

I've dropped a creature (Rainbow Efreet or Morphling) to stall until I can find a Shackles or whatever necessary to win. Now I can't eat multiple Nimble Mongoose with the Efreet and will probably just lose to an army of creatures, even if they are all 1/1's

[Dembones]

I've dropped a creature (Rainbow Efreet or Morphling) to stall until I can find a Shackles or whatever necessary to win. Now I can't eat multiple Nimble Mongoose with the Efreet and will probably just lose to an army of creatures, even if they are all 1/1's

Yeah, I just did the same thing against some hippies the other day.

Terrible change. I'll live with the mana burn change, which I thought was total garbage, but this is insulting.

[Jason]

Terrible change. I'll live with the mana burn change, which I thought was total garbage, but this is insulting.

The mana burn change doesn't do anything to MUC, except make Mana Drain infinitely better in Vintage. It really only hurts aggro and burn against Pulse of the Fields. In fact, it may be worthwhile to splash white for StP and Pulse of the Fields in MUC now...

And as mad as I am about combat, I can't tell how upset I'd be if I played Death and Taxes

[Barsoom]

Maybe i'm stupid, but i don't understand why Morphling will be weaker now; you can still activate shroud or make him 0/6 or 5/1 after you declare him as a blocker, or if they block your Morph with something, so where is the problem?

[4eak]

@ Samsunait

Morphling used to pump power before damage went on the stack, and then it would pump toughness after damage went on the stack. This allowed Morphling to hit for 5 while remaining nearly invulnerable to opposing blockers. Morphling owned the board and actively forced attrition wars on your opponent.

Now, it is significantly weaker.




peace,
4eak

[lorddotm]

Maybe i'm stupid, but i don't understand why Morphling will be weaker now; you can still activate shroud or make him 0/6 or 5/1 after you declare him as a blocker, or if they block your Morph with something, so where is the problem?

Because you used to be able to turn him into a 5/1, stack damage, then turn him into a 0/6 so he would live through almost any creature.

[Soulles]

Maybe i'm stupid, but i don't understand why Morphling will be weaker now; you can still activate shroud or make him 0/6 or 5/1 after you declare him as a blocker, or if they block your Morph with something, so where is the problem?

I'll give you a good example to understand it.

Say a Mongoose attacks with Threshhold. So it is 3/3. You block it with a 3/3 Morphling.

Damage goes on stack

Morphling turns in to 2/4. Morphling survives, Mongoose dies.

With this retarded rule, this is not possible anymore. Therefore, i just offerd my deck for sale on the Dutch forum and decided to quit MTG.

This card won me too many matches.

[Barsoom]

Isn't this way not the original one of when Morphling was printed? this rule of "damage on the stack" was included on 6th edition? if yes, now Morph is working like it should do from the start when the card was printed.
It's not the end of the world i think, you can still block with him... I usually play Morphling when i have almost full control of the board (ops, sorry, of the battlefield).

[Jason]

What about a random 2x Wake Thrasher as a finisher for this deck now? It isn't going to allow us to stall like Morphling or Rainbow Efreet did, but now it seems like a late-game powerhouse seeing as we can tap all our lands down end of turn and swing for the fences all in one turn. I don't know. It doesn't have evasion or a way of protecting itself, but it is going to outclass Tarmogoyf in size every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Just a suggestion

[Arsenal]

I think I'd rather just play 1x Call the Skybreaker and 1x Inkwell Leviathan at this point. Whatever, M10 is pissing me off and I can't think straight.

[4eak]

@ Samsunait


It's not the end of the world i think, you can still block with him... I usually play Morphling when i have almost full control of the board (ops, sorry, of the battlefield).

I don't think most of us called it the end of the world. You obviously underestimate the impact of this nerf though. Morphling was played for more than its ability to be a win condition. The card continued to be relevant even in situations where you didn't have full control of the board. Morphling helped stabilize the board and maintain board dominance through attrition wars. Even if your opponent attempted to come back on the board after a resolved Morphling, Morphling could play both attacker and combat winning blocker. Morphling channeled your mana pool into both offensive and defensive board power. Very few cards can play both roles so effectively.

With the changes to combat, Morphling has lost an important role (likewise for Rainbow Efreet).




peace,
4eak

[Dembones]

What about a random 2x Wake Thrasher as a finisher for this deck now? It isn't going to allow us to stall like Morphling or Rainbow Efreet did, but now it seems like a late-game powerhouse seeing as we can tap all our lands down end of turn and swing for the fences all in one turn. I don't know. It doesn't have evasion or a way of protecting itself, but it is going to outclass Tarmogoyf in size every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Just a suggestion

In order for a creature to get play as a kill condition in this deck, I think it has to have built in evasion/protection for itself. Or some disruptive effect when it EtB. (Enters the battlefield, you heard it here first.)

What about a few of the different glasskite or glass spinner type creatures? I forget what the names are other than Kira.

[jthanatos]

In order for a creature to get play as a kill condition in this deck, I think it has to have built in evasion/protection for itself. Or some disruptive effect when it EtB. (Enters the battlefield, you heard it here first.)

What about a few of the different glasskite or glass spinner type creatures? I forget what the names are other than Kira.

With no mana burn... wakethrasher HUGE.... Wakethrasher SMASH

[Jason]

I just janked up a list that looks something like the following:

1 Wake Thrasher
1 Call the Skybreaker
2 Kira, the Great Glass-Spinner
4 Sower of Temptation
3 Back to Basics
3 Powder Keg

1 Cryptic Command
2 Mana Leak
3 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

4 Fact or Fiction
4 Impulse

23 Snow-Covered Island
1 Academy Ruins

I'm going to try this out and see if this list will work and how 1x random Wake Thrasher plays out

[Dembones]

With no mana burn... wakethrasher HUGE.... Wakethrasher SMASH

Wakethrasher is a 1/1 on your turn with only the cards in your had to protect it, and then gets chump blocked by random things that get through your disruption and creature theivery.

I dunno, there's gotta be something better.

[jthanatos]

Wakethrasher is a 1/1 on your turn with only the cards in your had to protect it, and then gets chump blocked by random things that get through your disruption and creature theivery.

I dunno, there's gotta be something better.

Are they running breeding pit? They will run out of creatures, and an 8/8+ stick is pretty good at getting the job done quickly. (you know while your counter magic holds)

[Shawon]

Even though the rules changes drastically weaken Morphling's capabilities, I think it's a little too early to deem Morphling unplayable. If Call the Skybreaker wasn't better than Morphling before the rules change (I didn't think it was), then it's probably better now so at least run that.

Either way, I think it's a little too soon to start randomly testing awful creatures like Wake Thrasher in MUC.

[Captain_Morgan]

Fat Jinn, Palinchron, and Masticore. Masticore can block and regenerate, but can be offed with Grips. Masticore could be powered through Scrying Sheets. That and shifting towards Accumulated Knowledge for draw with FoF.

A W or B splash could constitute to make the deck have more spot or global removal or even Red.

[Jason]

Even though the rules changes drastically weaken Morphling's capabilities, I think it's a little too early to deem Morphling unplayable. If Call the Skybreaker wasn't better than Morphling before the rules change (I didn't think it was), then it's probably better now so at least run that.

Either way, I think it's a little too soon to start randomly testing awful creatures like Wake Thrasher in MUC.

First of all, I've found Rainbow Efreet and Call the Skybreaker to be way better than Morphling as of recent. Mass removal makes Superman cry; whereas, Rainbow Efreet and Call the Skybreaker don't really worry about the mass removal. I'm worried that Morphling and Rainbow Efreet can't go because they won't live through an attacking Hill Giant (or more frequently Nimble Mongoose) and be able to go the distance for the deck. This is why I'm thinking we will definitely need Kira + Sower, which Soulles has advocated for a long time (and done well with) and also another fat creature. With mana burn being eliminated, Wake Thrasher is hardly awful. Morphling, on the other hand, IS awful now.

[Dembones]

Are they running breeding pit? They will run out of creatures, and an 8/8+ stick is pretty good at getting the job done quickly. (you know while your counter magic holds)

No, but they could be playing elves or merfolk or something.

I just don't like the lack of evasion or trample.

Also, casting cost of three makes tougher to sneak by a countertop that's hit play, which does happen once in awhile.

[jthanatos]

No, but they could be playing elves or merfolk or something.

I just don't like the lack of evasion or trample.

Also, casting cost of three makes tougher to sneak by a countertop that's hit play, which does happen once in awhile.

Tarmogoyf doesn't have evasion, doesn't have trample. Kinda big though. Sometimes fat inevitability is enough. Am I saying wakethrasher is the new hotness? No. But with the combat change that now doesn't let morphling eat his way through blockers, it's worth testing.

[Dembones]

Tarmogoyf doesn't have evasion, doesn't have trample. Kinda big though. Sometimes fat inevitability is enough. Am I saying wakethrasher is the new hotness? No. But with the combat change that now doesn't let morphling eat his way through blockers, it's worth testing.

Give it a shot, by all means, I'd love for it to be effective.

But there's a huge difference between Goyf and Wake Thrasher, one is really good, and the other sometimes doesn't see play in it's own tribe.

[Captain_Morgan]

Tarmogoyf doesn't have evasion, doesn't have trample. Kinda big though. Sometimes fat inevitability is enough. Am I saying wakethrasher is the new hotness? No. But with the combat change that now doesn't let morphling eat his way through blockers, it's worth testing.

Masticore though can force through combat options for smaller creatures. As the defensive player you can take out what you wish not to block. I'm wondering if Goyf/Masticore might be worthwhile to try out with the combat tricks nerf. Or Thrasher/Core, might be interesting anyway. Machine gun some of the weaker things, then get Waker tossed up.

[Dembones]

Just throwing this out there, what about dropping the painter combo as the kill?

Don't try to get cute with the painter, just drop him and the grindstone and activate all at once.

[Carabas]

How about Deep Sea Kraken or Dominus of Fealty?

[Shawon]

PainterCombo takes up two cards to win, and you can't include enough cards to tutor it in MUC without completely changing the deck.

Wake Thrasher can't effectively block, so it should probably be far considered a reliable win condition in MUC.

Deep Sea Kraken isn't bad, but Stifle pwns it. Actually, may be considerable.

Dominus of Fealty is interesting, but its effect is too temporary for it to be really broken in MUC. Sexy interactions with Gargadon though.

Aren't Meloku, post-M10 Morphling, Call the Skybreaker still better than these named cards?

If you want to test new creatures, at least test Guile because I'm interested to know whether he's good in MUC.

[Dembones]

PainterCombo takes up two cards to win, and you can't include enough cards to tutor it in MUC without completely changing the deck.

Wake Thrasher can't effectively block, so it should probably be far considered a reliable win condition in MUC.

Deep Sea Kraken isn't bad, but Stifle pwns it. Actually, may be considerable.

Dominus of Fealty is interesting, but its effect is too temporary for it to be really broken in MUC. Sexy interactions with Gargadon though.

Aren't Meloku, post-M10 Morphling, Call the Skybreaker still better than these named cards?

If you want to test new creatures, at least test Guile because I'm interested to know whether he's good in MUC.

Touche on the painter, I figured there might be enough draw in the deck, but it is what it is.

I like Kraken, too, but you'd probably have to run multiple copies of it so you could reliably suspend it mid game.

Has no one ever tried Guile? He seems like he'd be better than Skybreaker.

[jthanatos]

Touche on the painter, I figured there might be enough draw in the deck, but it is what it is.

I like Kraken, too, but you'd probably have to run multiple copies of it so you could reliably suspend it mid game.

Has no one ever tried Guile? He seems like he'd be better than Skybreaker.

Guile does not protect himself. Skybreaker doesn't need to. But it has been tested, and yes guile is good... Just has yet to show itself as being good enough. He usually ended up 4th or 5th on our lists of win cons.

[Pelikanudo]

Hi boys I´'m new to the trhrad
I'm just bored of stifles, wastelands, moon effects and B2B ..., NO MORE ¡¡¡ just a few questions :
-Definately no brainstorms and no fetches ritgh?
-The best approach is Kira + sower ritgh?
- If anybody of you is Fahad Saleh please tell me, In my opinion is the best Mono U deck builder

I'll `post my list to see what do you think
23 Island
4 Sower of Temptation
3 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Morphling
1 Meloku
4 Force of Will
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell

4 Force Spike
4 Vedalken Shackles
4 Back to Basics

// Sideboard:
SB: 4 Powder Keg
SB: 4 Relic of progetnitus
SB: 4 REB
SB: 3 Stifle

I love the elaegancy of this deck so much...

[Barsoom]

Really guys, i think Morphling & Rainbow Efreet & CtS is still better than these fatties i read above.
If you had the mana to makes him 5/1 then after damage on the stack 0/6, you have the mana now to makes him 5/1, fly over mongoose or whatever, then untap him and makes his 0/6 again; plus, with the new coatl, mongoose actually is getting dropped by threshold players, he is still played only on Canadian Thresh.

The real problem for MUC actually is not these new changes on the rules, but Qasali Pridemage; this is really annoying (about this, the singleton Academy Ruins is doing quite good for me lately).

The best will condition for this deck was and will be guess what yea Tarmogoyf, at least for me; actually, Shackles + Tarmogoyf; if you wanted to win attrition wars, Shackles was and is the card; maybe it's my playstyle, but i use Morph mostly as a quick finisher.

[holkenborg]

If anybody of you is Fahad Saleh please tell me, In my opinion is the best Mono U deck builder
.

His name on this forum is Soulles. Right now he is trying to sell his foiled deck as he is quitting.

[Misplayer]

The real problem for MUC actually is not these new changes on the rules, but Qasali Pridemage; this is really annoying (about this, the singleton Academy Ruins is doing quite good for me lately).

I would say the real problem for MUC is Merfolk being a HUGE prescence in the metagame. Although Pridemage is probably a must counter. All the more reason to run 4x Spell Snare.

On Morphling: It's still probably about as good as it gets for a MUC win-con (used in conjunction with CtS). Sure, you won't be able to swing into that Goyf your opponent has, instead you'll have to fly over, but if you had the mana to stack lethal on their Goyf and save your Morphling, were they going to block anyway? Doubtful. You can no longer swing into Tombstalker unfortunately, but it's popularity has waned in the past few months. It also has a big "Shackles/Sower Me!" sign on it. Anyway, Morphling is still a shrouded 5/1 Flying beater plus an 0/6 wall in the same turn. As far as I know, even with the new rules that's still good.

[Dembones]

Hi boys I´'m new to the trhrad
I'm just bored of stifles, wastelands, moon effects and B2B ..., NO MORE

B2B is probably the most effective card in the deck. Dropping it after your opponent taps out is often enough to win the game.

As far as Morphling, yeah, it's probably still the best win-con, or one of the top. Like I've said, I liked using Efreet, but it lost alot of it's appeal because of the loss of damage on the stack.

Still nice for avoiding sweeping effects, though, I guess.

[Benie Bederios]

- If anybody of you is Fahad Saleh please tell me, In my opinion is the best Mono U deck builder

Soulles is Fahad... But he retired. He is selling his complete deck (http://www.benelegacy.nl/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1455)..

How big are the changes really? Look at his deck remove the Morphlings for CtS or even Wakethrasher( Kira can protect it.) Sure I believe Morphling was the best wincondition, but CtS is on a good #2 right?

Benie

[johanessen]

Lands:
24 Island

Counters:
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Force Spike

Draw:
4 Ophidian
4 Fact or Fiction
3 Impulse

Control:
3 Back to Basics
4 Powder Keg
4 Sower of Temptation

Beef:
2 Morphling

I'm currently running this version of MUC and it served me well so far, pretty decent board control, Sowers to steal the fatties and Kegs to deal with weenies, loads of counters and Ophidian/Fact for massive card draw.

Why you don't run Vedalken Shackles?

I'm running a similar list, but with some changes. Now i'm not sure to run Morphling with the new changes, but that was my last list i used.


24 Island

Counters:
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Force Spike
4 Spell Snare

Draw:
2 Lu Xun, Scholar General
4 Fact or Fiction

Control:
4 Powder Keg
3 Back to Basics
3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Sower of Temptation

Beef:
1 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet

[Skeggi]

May I remind you that not only Morphling is nerfed, but also Rainbow Efreet loses alot of its power.

[Antonius]

maybe this is a bit too old school, but I've been running six fetches, 1 underground sea and 1 basic swamp to support Psychatog (and engineered plague in the SB)
It's been working pretty well for me, but then again I haven't been testing it extensively as I've spent most of my time testing the Merfolk deck i'm going to be running in an upcoming irl tournament. What do you guys think of using Tog as a win con?

[4eak]

@ Antonius

Nerfed Morphling and Efreet are substantially better than Tog. But, even Morphling may not be worth playing.

Give CtS a try.




peace,
4eak

[rsaunder]

2 Lu Xun, Scholar General

What makes this a better choice than something like Jace? Or even ancestral visions? It looks like something that dies to almost all removal in the format and has a huge "bullseye" on his head since he's half of the "removable" creatures in your deck.

[Jason]

Before the rules change and still now, for me, Call the Skybreaker is the best win-condition/finisher/whatever Mono-Blue has. Rainbow Efreet was #2 and Morphling didn't even make the cut of my deck (it was close recently but I added a Mana Leak...HA!). Now, I see Rainbow Efreet is much worse than Morphling, but I also don't feel Morphling has the bomb level to be the #2 win-condition in my deck. In fact, I changed my decklist altogether and am running 8x creatures (ish) opposed to the 2x I was; I'm currently trying:

4x Sower
2x Kira
1x Wake Thrasher
1x Call the Skybreaker

OR

4x Sower
2x Kira
1x Meloku
1x Call the Skybreaker

Before the rules change, I tested Kira but did not eventually play it in my deck - I found it good but not quite good enough. It's a decent turn-3 play because it is really annoying for the opponent if he or she doesn't counter it. It can be an early clock against TES (I wouldn't play it turn 3 without FoW backup against TES though), a solid poker versus Landstill, or even just come down to block a Nimble Mongoose or trade with a Warchief (maybe). Since I feel this deck has lost a lot of power in its bombs, I think it might be time for me to go back playing Kira.

When I first played the deck, I had Meloku and Morphling as my win-conditions. I found Meloku to be really good against Threshold; the only problem was it couldn't protect itself (I still found most Thresh players sideboarding out the Swords to Plowshares anyway because they only hit 1 creature). With Kira, it can sort of protect itself, but that's not really that necessary because Meloku is really good against aggro and is also a good way to bounce Academy Ruins under Back to Basics (if you run that card).

Also, now with the new rules of no mana burn, a turn 5 Wake Thrasher is pretty good especially if a Kira is already in play (but not necessarily ONLY if Kira is in play). You will be smashing for 6 the next turn, 7 after that, and you will never have to be in a situation with your lands tapped and wanting to do something else because you can just tap your mana end of turn and if your opponent plays something, you can respond; if not, mana poofs away.. In either case - bigger Wake Thrasher.

I was never a fan of Guile - its ability isn't too exciting and it can't protect itself. At least Meloku has a relevant ability and Wake Thrasher can come down to beat a lot earlier with their vulnerability. As for Inkwell Leviathon, I feel it costs too much mana as I'm usually winning with Call the Skybreaker or one of my other win conditions by the time I have 9 mana. It just seems like this would be trying to slow down the deck even more. Just remember, the more time you give your opponent to recover under Back to Basics, the more likely it is we will lose.

[Mordel]

It isn't like they removed the stack and replaced it with the old spell resolution system. They made combat simple enough for retards, that's all.

Also; it isn't like the format is rife with huge fliers. Morphling still functions the way he did, he just doesn't act as a 5/X in aerial combat...there are tombstalkers and angels...both of which should generally be stolen or countered at all costs anyway(at least I generally work as hard as possible to keep them off the table and if worst comes to worst, I would gladly have my morphling die in order to get rid of one and then draw into another of of my wins) and morphling smashing through either was very unlikely when you consider how much mana you'd have to use to do so.

MUC is all about reaching the end game, not having creatures butt heads very often: if you play the match right and your deck is designed well enough and so on and so forth, a spire golem should be able to finish the job just as well as a fuckin' morphling or Kyra, really.

Don't get me wrong here though, the rules change is basically going to mark me rarely if ever playing MtG anymore, but Morphling is still more or less functionally the same when you consider the format and what flyers are actually played. You may not be able to kill an exalted trygdon, but you can still fog it and smack them in the head, untap, rinse and repeat.

The sky is not falling for fucking MUC.

Edit: None of your choices for replacement creatures aren't even filling the gap created by morphling's combat tricks being nerfed...so you are effectively bitching about how some card isn't as good and then replacing it with shit that is actually worse. Good job. Back to your stack of Hilights magazines, dude.

[Pelikanudo]

So definately Morphing is out, not because is bad, simply becuase meloku is now best.
so regarding to this has anybody the same approach about the deck to talk to thim?
//The perfect combination of creatures
4 Sower of Temptation
3 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
2 Meloku // now helped with kira.

// the perfect counters
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force Spike

// the perfect bombs
4 Vedalken Shackles
4 Back to Basics

// the perfect draw
4 Fact or Fiction

// Sideboard:
SB: 4 Powder Keg // For vials, our worst nitgmare and 3shold mainly
SB: 4 Relic of progetnitus // For ichorid and loam and 3shold mainly
SB: 4 REB // For gobbos and burn mainly
SB: 3 Stifle . // For combo and gobbos and landstill mainly

//

// Simply the perfect deck
Do I need something for the mirror?
what do you about the side?
Do you really find propagand necessary?
23 lands is the addecuAate?
if no fetches then no brainstorm ritgh, I feel , I do not really why , simply intuition that this deck does not need brainstorm, rith?

[Shawon]

Nice perfect deck. Why ask for suggestions since it's perfect?

[johanessen]

So a question, with Meloku it's possible to add an Academy Ruins? 23 Islands+Academy.

[Jason]

Do I need something for the mirror?
what do you about the side?
Do you really find propagand necessary?
23 lands is the addecuAate?
if no fetches then no brainstorm ritgh, I feel , I do not really why , simply intuition that this deck does not need brainstorm, rith?

I would say you probably don't need anything for the mirror because this matchup will rarely come up. A lot of the time, winning the mirror is who resolves more Fact or Fiction.

I'm not sold on your sideboard. I really like Powder Keg in the main deck because it is so useful so often. It helps g1 matchups of so many decks - destroy Bridge from Below tokens; wreck Affinity's mana base; blow up Mongoose; blow up Vial; it can even blow up Mox Diamond in the loam match-up; or destroy Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, or LED prematurely in the combo match-up. I would try making a couple cuts in the main deck to fit at least 2x Powder Keg (I would suggest at least 3x though)

I've never really liked Stifle in the sideboard. It is more a tempo gaining card, and as has been said several times, this deck doesn't really have the right tools to gain a significant advantage from that tempo. Against combo, Chalice of the Void or Disrupt is amazing. (As is Telemin Performance but that shouldn't be more than a 1x or 2x in your sideboard.)

I haven't found Propaganda to be overly necessary recently. Because Threshold is gaining in popularity, Goblins is being played a little less every tournament so Propaganda loses some of its appeal. I have never played in a recent tournament where I wished I had Propaganda and didn't. I have played in a tournament where I wished Propaganda in my sideboard was something else (like Telemin Performance, an extra Disrupt or 2x). Saying that, I guess it would depend on how many Affinity, Goblins, Merfolk, random UW Fish decks, or Zoo decks you will be seeing. Propaganda is really good against those decks.

I run 24 land in 4x Impulse because I suck at drawing lands, so I don't think 23 land is the correct number. Some people swear by it, but I would never play less than 24 because I hate missing land drops.

Brainstorm is amazing, but I don't think it is right in this deck, especially if you aren't splashing a color. If you splash white or red or black, you will need fetchlands. And if you're playing fetchlands, you may as well play Brainstorm. I wouldn't play fetchlands for a strictly mono-blue deck, however. It opens you up to being Stifled and losing land drops. It also causes a life loss which, although minor, could still be significant considering Force of Will usually costs 1 life as well.

As a final suggestion to your decklist, try 1x Call the Skybreaker and 1x Meloku instead of 2x Meloku. Call the Skybreaker is a powerhouse that is very hard to deal with. The inevitability of the card is too much for a lot of opponents.


So a question, with Meloku it's possible to add an Academy Ruins? 23 Islands+Academy.

I think it's possible without Meloku to run Academy Ruins. I'm doing it right now. Academy Ruins is amazing when you don't have Back to Basics in play for recurring Powder Keg and even if you do have B2B in play, I've never been in a situation where I wished it wasn't either in my hand or sitting there in the battlefield untapped not doing anything. I always knew it would be there ready to do some fun things with Powder Keg (or Shackles if it was destroyed).

[Jason]

Edit: None of your choices for replacement creatures aren't even filling the gap created by morphling's combat tricks being nerfed...so you are effectively bitching about how some card isn't as good and then replacing it with shit that is actually worse. Good job. Back to your stack of Hilights magazines, dude.

Nice Edit there, kid. I like how you think you understand how the deck works. Unfortunately for you, reality is a hell of a place to live. By assuming that Morphling is **ZOMG! AMAZING!!!!!!!1!!!!one!** because it's a 5/1 flying creature is pretty asinine in and of itself. Yay! A 5/1 flying creature for 5 mana. Oh yeah...shroud too. Like that is even remotely relevant against MUC. See. There is this game of magical cards we're playing. And if your opponent happens to be playing with this one magical card, Swords to Plowshares, it wrecks my day....RIIIIIIIIGHT. Keeping Swords in for 1-4 cards in my deck is pretty useless because if they do, they are going to inevitably have to answer to a 5/5 flying dragon/elemental/whatever. Oh yeah...I run counter magic too so if I want to, I could protect my game-winning bomb. Huh, who woulda thunk it? So the creatures I am proposing - Wake Thrasher - is now a faster clock for MUC than Morphling ever could be; sure it gets blocked but will live a heck of a lot longer than Morphling, seeing as it will be a 6/6+ every turn after turn 5 (or are you one of the people who do you not understand how tapping lands works under the new rules?...). The other option is Meloku which does essentially do the same thing as Morphling - it stalls until you find an answer, it still flies and can even make enough flying creatures to win the game. Sure it doesn't have shroud but that's not that exciting anyway. If you want to keep playing with your more expensive flying Dross Crocodiles, that's fine with me. I'm going to play with creatures that are either going to win me the game faster or stall out longer. If you actually still played Magic, I might listen to you, but last time I heard, you were quitting so I don't really give two shits about someone who doesn't even play, let alone know what the hell he's talking about. Have fun sitting in the corner playing with your new and super sweet GI Joe action figures while listening to the totally amazing Hannah Montana CD.

[Mordel]

Jason: You fail at addressing the important points brought forth.
If you didn't like it before the M10 rules hit the press, you should have made that crystal fucking clear, rather than bitching about the M10 rules nerfing its ability to have a huge toughness because that is all the rules changes have done. Nothing else.

Apparently, I have been playing MUC far longer than you/have a better idea of how it fucking works, because morphling allows you to have a certain measure of grace as far as using your permission to keep it alive goes. When playing a deck that only has about sixteen or so permission spells, some draw and theft/mass removal artifacts, you need to keep options as open as possible to allow flexibility and prepare for the worst, shroud, five cc, massive toughness and four turn flying clock are fine.

Pick a fucking vanilla creature with a three casting cost, next to no defensive value AND is such an offensive powerhouse because MUC untaps a fucktonne of permanents all the time...tapping out has great strategic value. Good fucking work Columbo. Meloku? EE turns it into a massive tempo swing for them and a glorified spire golem AND it is easily targeted. Great work again. Please keep in mind that one of the most important things for MUC to be able to do while keeping it's hand size up, to minimize the loss of trading one for one with opponents is to drop a land every turn to ensure that those trades happen. Running a card that does not protect itself and has an ability that also negates your land drops is sub par at best. Your assumption of countering everything must be the reason MUC is doing so incredibly well.

It's also interesting that the experienced/very well-known MUC players haven't posted on this thread in ages.

When MUC wins most of the time, it wins regardless of what it is turning sideways so long as it is bigger than a two power creature and even then, it still happens often.


If you actually still played Magic, I might listen to you, but last time I heard, you were quitting so I don't really give two shits about someone who doesn't even play, let alone know what the hell he's talking about.

Great logic! Someone who isn't going to be playing much anymore's knowledge gained over playing an archetype at almost every opportunity possible for the last decade is worth nothing because he is going to not pursue a hobby, like he once did. Let it be known: abandoning or chilling out on a hobby/skill negates all prior knowledge gained on said subject. Yes.


Have fun sitting in the corner playing with your new and super sweet GI Joe action figures while listening to the totally amazing Hannah Montana CD.

Good one. How is that shit even on your radar? I remember Highlights from when I was a kid. What's your excuse for those two items above?

[Tea]

destroy Bridge from Below tokens; wreck Affinity's mana base; blow up Mongoose; blow up Vial; it can even blow up Mox Diamond in the loam match-up; or destroy Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, or LED prematurely in the combo match-up.
All of these targets can also be hit by engineered explosives at 1 or 0.
What do you think of playing engineered explosives in MUC without a splash?
It cannot deal with goyf,etc., but in order to deal with 2cc we have spell snare.

[Shawon]

All of these targets can also be hit by engineered explosives at 1 or 0.
What do you think of playing engineered explosives in MUC without a splash?
It cannot deal with goyf,etc., but in order to deal with 2cc we have spell snare.

That;s why the deck runs Powder Keg.

[Jason]

All of these targets can also be hit by engineered explosives at 1 or 0.
What do you think of playing engineered explosives in MUC without a splash?
It cannot deal with goyf,etc., but in order to deal with 2cc we have spell snare.

The main problem with EE is it can't hit lands. Powder Keg completely wrecks affinity which can show up a lot in many different tournaments because the deck is cheap and easy to build, especially if the person piloting the deck plays extended and has most of the cards. Plus, Keg can destroy Mishra's Factory in the Landstill match-up and Mutavault in the Merfolk match-up. Those combined make it relevant enough to not run Explosives without running a splash. Also the fact that Powder Keg can ramp up to 2 and kill a Tarmogoyf or get to 3 and destroy a Crucible of Worlds and/or Trinisphere if playing Stax is also relevant.


Jason: You fail at addressing the important points brought forth.
If you didn't like it before the M10 rules hit the press, you should have made that crystal fucking clear, rather than bitching about the M10 rules nerfing its ability to have a huge toughness because that is all the rules changes have done. Nothing else.


I never once said I didn't like Morphling. However, I did say it wasn't worth playing anymore pre-M10, this is true (and have said over and over for the past months - if you could read, I'm sure you would have noticed but I digress). I was more upset about the loss of Rainbow Efreet's ability to trade with a Mongoose or Factory or what have you. If Morphling isn't good enough to make the cut pre-M10, why would I want it now when it is strictly worse?



Apparently, I have been playing MUC far longer than you/have a better idea of how it fucking works, because morphling allows you to have a certain measure of grace as far as using your permission to keep it alive goes. When playing a deck that only has about sixteen or so permission spells, some draw and theft/mass removal artifacts, you need to keep options as open as possible to allow flexibility and prepare for the worst, shroud, five cc, massive toughness and four turn flying clock are fine.


It's also interesting to note that 9 times out of 10, when I'm winning, I have Back to Basics online and that Morphling wouldn't be relevant at all. I could be winning with any creature that has a power 2 or greater. The deck has a certain inevitability to it with bomb creatures and bomb permanents. Also, I had made these suggestion with playing with Kira in mind; my creatures will have a certain feeling of "shroud" to them so they will be equally as vulnerable as Morphling - that is, by mass removal.



Pick a fucking vanilla creature with a three casting cost, next to no defensive value AND is such an offensive powerhouse because MUC untaps a fucktonne of permanents all the time...tapping out has great strategic value. Good fucking work Columbo. Meloku? EE turns it into a massive tempo swing for them and a glorified spire golem AND it is easily targeted. Great work again. Please keep in mind that one of the most important things for MUC to be able to do while keeping it's hand size up, to minimize the loss of trading one for one with opponents is to drop a land every turn to ensure that those trades happen. Running a card that does not protect itself and has an ability that also negates your land drops is sub par at best. Your assumption of countering everything must be the reason MUC is doing so incredibly well.


"tapping out has great strategic value. Good fucking work Columbo." Ummm...do you understand how the new rules work? Once again, reading is necessary for success. I'm going to explain this very slowly for you so you can understand. It's my opponent's turn. He or she passes during the end of turn. I say I tap all my lands. When priority returns to my opponent, if he or she plays something, I have the mana to respond! If he or she doesn't, the mana disappears for no net loss for me. I untap and POOF! Wake Thrasher is bigger. You're talking about clocks with Morphling. Wake Thrasher is a 3-turn clock that will most surely be blocked by your opponent's creatures, getting them off the board and either making my merfolk get there on his own or if my opponent finds some sort of mass removal (of which I choose to not or cannot counter), allowing me to stall out with an empty board for me to wait to eventually get Call the Skybreaker.

As for Meloku, if my opponent is playing Engineered Explosives for zero, then I ask you why this does not open himself up to being wrecked by Back to Basics? Should he or she not be trying to get rid of the card that is going to win the game? If he or she EE's for 0 so the Tarmogoyf can get through just one more time, how is that going to help him or her in the long run? Meloku is still there. It can still poop babies out of its fat ass. I understand you love Morphling, but it is certainly replaceable.



It's also interesting that the experienced/very well-known MUC players haven't posted on this thread in ages.


It's also interesting to note MUC still does well even though it's not being piloted by the gods you look up to



When MUC wins most of the time, it wins regardless of what it is turning sideways so long as it is bigger than a two power creature and even then, it still happens often.


So why are you advocating Morphling like you have some sort of investment in its stock? You say I can turn any creature sideways, as do I. My play-style has deemed Superman worthless so I feel trying other options should be valid - Meloku (which is not worthless regardless of what you say) and Wake Thrasher. In fact, out of the two, it will probably be Meloku that wins out for me simply because it flies.



Great logic! Someone who isn't going to be playing much anymore's knowledge gained over playing an archetype at almost every opportunity possible for the last decade is worth nothing because he is going to not pursue a hobby, like he once did. Let it be known: abandoning or chilling out on a hobby/skill negates all prior knowledge gained on said subject. Yes.


Hmmm..let's see. I haven't played Bridge in a while. I'm sure I can just pick up a deck of cards and be amazing because I've played it soooo much over the last decade.



Good one. How is that shit even on your radar? I remember Highlights from when I was a kid. What's your excuse for those two items above?

Well GI Joe was around when I was a kid and as for Hannah Montana, I guess that would be because I don't live under a rock or in Canada...either/or

[Mordel]

Good job with putting words in my mouth and failing to realise a number of expressions are not applicable for the "written" word.

Have fun, champ. Savor the mediocrity.

Find the morphlings: http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Mono+Blue+Control&format=Legacy

[4eak]

It is obvious that the win condition choice does matter.

Morphling/Rainbow Efreet are much worse because they no longer trade in attrition wars--this is a substantial loss. Their 'shroud' effects are the only reason they are playable at all. CtS also has that shroud-like effect, simply because you can just cast another. CtS has gained grounds for play.

Regardless, the best win condition in the deck is largely unchanged: Vedalken Shackles.




peace,
4eak

[Clark Kant]

You guys understand what makes MUC work better than anyone. So I wanted your opinions on my MUC Combo list. This direction makes some sense especially since MUC's best win condition (Morphling), got crippled by the changes to the attack phase.

It's a very fun and fairly competitive deck that I've been working on and finally tweaked to the point that I'm comfortable posting it. I'm open to any suggestions you have to improve it without radically altering it. It's basically a control deck that has a combo win condition...

14 Island

4 Mutavault/Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Veil of Birds

4 Ponder
4 Impulse

4 Standstill
4 Propaganda

4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Proteus Staff
4 Polymorph
2 Progenitus

The deck plays like a fairly typical Mono Blue Control deck. You draw cards, you counter spells, you use Propaganda to slow aggro decks by 4 turns or so. And you can even use Proteus Staff on opposing fat creatures to replace them with smaller creatures with summoning sickness.

Where it differs is, this deck consistently combos off on turn 4 or turn 5 to get a Progenitus into play with Force of Will protection.

Against those control decks that try to give the combo a hardtime, the Standstill + Manland package is very potent at generating massive card advantage and give you more chances to combo out.

Veil of Birds is there because I really wanted to have 12 combo enablers on the creature side, esp since Factories and Darksteels bite the dust to opposing Wastelands sometimes. It also works well with Standstill. And you can always pitch it to FoW.

Goyf isn't really a problem. You usually combo out on turn 4 and get a 10/10 into play with counterprotection. You can always Daze or FoW it. You have Propaganda to slow them down by several turns. Goyf takes till midgame to get scary big. And if you're desperate, you can Polymorph/Proteus Staff it. You also have 12 critters that you can chump block goyf with to buy time for your Progenitus to win you the game.

You almost never ever draw both Progenitus. But in the rare cases that you do, this deck almost always has a full hand, so it can easily discard Progenitus when it needs to by building up to 8 cards.

I tested Brainstorm, and it really does suck horribly without any shuffle effects.

The deck's curve is perfect IMO...

You have 8 solid turn one plays, 8 solid turn two plays, and 8 solid turn 3 plays, and 8 solid free counters to protect your combo.

Turn One...
4 Ponder
4 Veil of Birds
(Both are solid plays, you use Ponder to find your combo enabler, or play Veil of Birds to enable your combo and apply early pressure).

Turn Two...
4 Impulse
4 Standstill
(Both serve the same function, to help you find your combo piece by drawing you through a lot of your decks cards. Your opponent will have to break Standstill since you play so many manlands).

Turn Three...
4 Propaganda
4 Proteus Staff
(If you have Staff, play it, and combo off on turn four, if not, Propaganda buys you a ton of extra time to combo off).

Protect your combo/make sure it resolves...
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

I like everything about the deck so far.

Please post any suggestions or thoughts that you have on this list at all.

My one major question, do you think it's worthwhile to consider a trasformational board into MUC at all, just bc it would be fun to do.

[Jak]

That isn't MUC because it doesn't control anything. You devote numerous slots to run a combo that other decks can just do better with much better protection.

[Clark Kant]

Fair enough, I misphrased it.

I want to borrow the very best delay tactics of MUC. MUC has a host of cards whose whole function is to survive till the mid-late game against combo/aggro decks, since that's the time frame where MUC starts to shine.

This deck is using the same elements. Propaganda, FoW, and Daze (instead of the Force Spike that lots of MUC lists run).

I just wanted your opinions on if these are the most potent delay tactics that my deck has access to, since you're very familiar with each of those cards.

As for other decks, point me to a combo that lets me use Daze/FoW/Propaganda to control the board, cards like Impulse and Ponder to find the combo pieces and still offers the massive consistency that running 12/8 configuration enables, all while letting you abuse the crap out of Standstill, and has a win condition that is immune to every thing except for Wrath. No other combo deck out there can do more than 1 or 2 of the above functions. And that's why this deck is different from every other combo deck out there and also worth playing. Because all those functions, esp the near unstoppable win condition, being able to combo out so consistently, play so many cantrips, play so much countermagic and abuse Standstill are all very powerful.

[Jak]

Fair enough, I misphrased it.

I want to borrow the very best delay tactics of MUC. MUC has a host of cards whose whole function is to survive till the mid-late game against combo/aggro decks, since that's the time frame where MUC starts to shine.

This deck is using the same elements. Propaganda, FoW, and Daze (instead of the Force Spike that lots of MUC lists run).

I just wanted your opinions on if these are the most potent delay tactics that my deck has access to, since you're very familiar with each of those cards.

As for other decks, point me to a combo that lets me use Daze/FoW/Propaganda to control the board, cards like Impulse and Ponder to find the combo pieces and still offers the massive consistency that running 12/8 configuration enables, all while letting you abuse the crap out of Standstill, and has a win condition that is immune to every thing except for Wrath. No other combo deck out there can do more than 1 or 2 of the above functions. And that's why this deck is different from every other combo deck out there and also worth playing. Because all those functions, esp the near unstoppable win condition, being able to combo out so consistently, play so many cantrips, play so much countermagic and abuse Standstill are all very powerful.

Most combo decks don't need to run the "delay tactics" because they are faster. Maybe you are talking about Painter's/Grindstone but even that runs Daze, Counterbalance, Force, and better search in Trinket Mage, Brainstorm, LDV, etc. I just don't think the combo is good enough. Most people that run NO-> Prog do not use it as a primary win condition. Wrath, Humility, Fleshbag Marauder, Edict, Innocent Blood, etc can all still handle it and you only have 4 hard counters to protect it (not that it needs much protecting, but still).

[Clark Kant]

Most combo decks don't need to run the "delay tactics" because they are faster. Maybe you are talking about Painter's/Grindstone but even that runs Daze, Counterbalance, Force, and better search in Trinket Mage, Brainstorm, LDV, etc. I just don't think the combo is good enough. Most people that run NO-> Prog do not use it as a primary win condition. Wrath, Humility, Fleshbag Marauder, Edict, Innocent Blood, etc can all still handle it and you only have 4 hard counters to protect it (not that it needs much protecting, but still).

Yes, but most combo decks lose to all sorts of combo hate that this deck doesn't care about at all. That's one reason why you only occasionally see combo top 8 a tournament.

But this deck is very very resilient to combo hate. Additionally it can easily temporarily switch roles to a Mono Blue Landstill type deck when needed. This ability to temporarily switch roles is very useful. Another reason the deck is a lot more resilient than most combo is that this deck's combo pieces are also played in many more copies off, so if one component gets countered the first time, you'll always find a replacement for it within a turn or two. This gives the deck inevitibility that most combo decks don't have, the kind of inevitabily that is typically found in control decks. And that's why it's not fair to compare this deck to pure combo decks.

The stuff that Progenitus dies to is relatively rarely played. Maybe 5% of the decks out there play any of those cards that can get rid of Progenitus. And even then, you can Staff it right back into play the next turn.

[eq.firemind]

Hi all!

I've played aggro for a long time and now I want to switch to slower deck 'cause it's no fun in go balls to the wall anymore. The long, complicated game is the thing I want from magic cards now. My first pick is Death and Taxes and it's a great deck, but I want a pure control deck too.

I don't think there is more controllish deck than MUC, so it's my choice. Here's the list I want to start with:

23 Islands - I dunno, maybe 24 is better number, but what to cut?

4 Force Spike
4 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
16 premission cards look OK.

4 Vedalken Shackes - 'cause they are great.
3 Back to Basics - Only 3 main 'cause my metagame is random.
2 Powder Keg - Mongooses and Nacatls will crush me without this card.

4 Impulse - Not actually CA, but without BS/Top/Shuffle this is a good card.
3 Fact of Fiction - 3 are fine for me 'cause I run Jace.
2 Jace Beleren - I like him very much in MUC 'cause he acts as CA, wincon and draws a lot of attention.

1 Call the Skybreaker - reusable wincon
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror - cheaper wincon with build-in swarm protection
1 Isleback Spawn - I wanted a big shrouded wincon. This one is cheaper and with Jace's help is often bigger than Inkwell Leviathan. Maybe it will be Morphling.

SB:
3 Propaganda - Against swarms
1 Back to Basics - My meta is random, so 1 BtB is in sideboard
4 Hydroblast - against Burn and Gobbos
2 Divert - mainly against TA, EvaGreen and Burn
4 Relic of Progenitus - against many decks
1 Powder Keg - I like this card very much in MUC, but can't find place for 3rd in main.

Any help/advices about the deck will be appriciated!

[Dembones]

I personally think force spike is kind of weak. I know it has those "GOTCHA!" moments, but there'll be times that you'll draw it late game and curse it. That's how I feel, at least.

In that spot I might run a bit of bounce, I have 2 repeals and an echoing truth in my main.

Just some food for thought.

[eq.firemind]

I always happy to see Force Spike in first three turns.
I have Impulse to to clear it from topdeck and FoW to pitch.
If it's lategame, it's usually my game anyway.
Force Spike is not totally useless in mid-late game 'cause we run Back to Basics.
If you're on draw and see Vial or Lackey, Repeal = Force Spike = nothing
If you're on play, Force Spike > Repeal
The main reason is that bounce creates mostly tempo and MUC is clearly not tempo deck.
The second reason against bounce is Nimble Mongoose.

[Dembones]

I always happy to see Force Spike in first three turns.
I have Impulse to to clear it from topdeck and FoW to pitch.
If it's lategame, it's usually my game anyway.
Force Spike is not totally useless in mid-late game 'cause we run Back to Basics.
If you're on draw and see Vial or Lackey, Repeal = Force Spike = nothing
If you're on play, Force Spike > Repeal
The main reason is that bounce creates mostly tempo and MUC is clearly not tempo deck.
The second reason against bounce is Nimble Mongoose.

If you like force spike that much, keep it.

[slobad23]

If you like force spike that much, keep it.

This is exactly the sort of thing that grinds threads down to a halt. Comments like this just aren't constructive.

With a deck like MUC, there is never going to be one build that is the best. With a deck like this, you should be able to build it to beat any given deck you like - you just have to know the field. Things like Tendrils Combo will do the same thing against every deck - MUC is reactive and needs to have a boat load of answers - deciding on the 3 or 4 threats you are going to be running should take a lot less effort than the other 56 cards.

I think what this thread really needs is when people post a list or ideas, they need to explain what they are trying to achieve - what weakness their choice improves, and what decks are in their metagame that they are trying to beat (true of every thread really, and the cause of much frustration for a LOT of people I'm sure)

If we have a sort of Chinese menu to pick up the pieces we needed to shore up weak match-ups then I really feel the deck could get somewhere.

Don't pick me up on this because it is a really quick scribble, but something like:

Countermagic:

Aggro - force spike, force of will
Combo - spell snare, force spike
Control - counterspell, forbid

This way the deck can be tuned and changed from tournament to tournament with relative ease.

Posting a list and saying -

"this is my list... thoughts?"
"do what you want, I don't care"
"ok, you like force spike, I like spell snare - let's just leave it at that"

it just doesn't get us anywhere.

</rant>

[Tea]

I can see that engineered explosive without a splash was a bad idea.

Some pages ago, there was a debate whether to run back to basics or nevinyrral’s disk.
However, now, it seems that all of you decided on btb even saying that it’s an auto-include.
If I want to run back to basics along with powder keg and force spike, I don’t have enough spots:

24 Island
4 Force of Will
4 Spell snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force spike
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Think Twice
4 back to basics
4 Vedalken shackles
4 powder keg
3 win-conditions

have to cut 3 three cards.


As for the win-condition discussion:
Normally, our win-condition is vedalken shackles; however, this is not the case if we play against combo (or control) since they don’t play many creatures. So we may look for a win-condition which kills faster than morphling in order to be able to set those decks on a clock.
I thought of vendilion clique, unfortunately she is a legend.

[Misplayer]

I'm still not understanding why Morphling is not a viable win condition anymore. Sure, it can no longer do neat combat tricks, but it's still as effective a method of winning the game as any, correct? I don't understand playing cards like Meloku that are pretty fragile compared to Morphling. I've used Morphling in my MUC builds for its following abilities in this order: Shroud, Flying, pseudo-Vigilance, combat tricks. The combat tricks, while neat, are almost never necessary to win a game. All the other, still-valid, Morphling abilities make it an effective win-con. (For reference, I run 2x Morphling, 1x CtS, 3x Sower, plus 3 Shackles).

[Pelikanudo]

@Jason :
@Tea also , as we have almost the same approach of the deck :


Thanks for you advices,
I'll try the call the Sky instead meloku;
Regarding to the Powder keg in main , the issue is that I conceive the deck as a compact deck , I mean like burn or Deadguy ale (mono balck version)
therefore, I like playing 4 copies of each card , because each card has its own function, and what I intend is to keep those numbers intact, I mean , sure I can run 3 vedalken and 3 B2B and put in those slots powder kegs istead, but for sure then I get angry when in a landstill match up I don't draw B2B because of playing 3 and not 4, for example.
Maybe 4 powder keg will replace 4 Spike , but as I said I DO not like this change, spike in here seems to be to powerfull to not to run in because of B2B .

How would you build the side , according to the base before explained apart from the 4 powder?
and how would you side vs the different match ups?

Regarding to the mana base I'll try first 23, but probably I'll see 24 is the correct number as experience only can demonstrate...
I think a suitable side could be :
4 powder k, // absolutly a must
4 relic of p // In my opinion this is a must
4 BEB // a must too
3 stifles/ propaganda / the I don't know card

[Mordel]

I'm still not understanding why Morphling is not a viable win condition anymore. Sure, it can no longer do neat combat tricks, but it's still as effective a method of winning the game as any, correct? I don't understand playing cards like Meloku that are pretty fragile compared to Morphling. I've used Morphling in my MUC builds for its following abilities in this order: Shroud, Flying, pseudo-Vigilance, combat tricks. The combat tricks, while neat, are almost never necessary to win a game. All the other, still-valid, Morphling abilities make it an effective win-con. (For reference, I run 2x Morphling, 1x CtS, 3x Sower, plus 3 Shackles).

Exactly. I very rarely, if ever, used morphling to kill opposing creatures in combat. When I have found myself playing morphling, it would be to win...not as defense. I had played it as defense before, but fogging is just as well in most situations anyway.

I see myself adding Teferi or masticore to my creatures(2x morphling 1x CoS) before using Meloku or Oona.

Edit: Force spike is also very useful for fucking an opponent's plays late game. You may not counter something specifically, but you may be causing one card to not be played as a result. Something else to keep in mind is that if you make it to lategame and you opponent isn't running genesis or something like that, chances are you have won because you will have ideally dropped a land almost every turn, which means that you should be able to trade with basically any play your opponent makes. On top of that, you also have a means of getting your hand outright refilled, whereas outside of confidant, loam and standstill, raw CA like that is difficult to find in many popular decks.

I find force spike/disrupt to be useful for the mid game hump when an opponent basically tries to push through your one for one by using a combination of baiting and trying to beat you ability to trade one for one with efficient cards, which is not hard in 1.5. Single mana counters are very useful for the midgame push. I shouldn't have to mention this, but I will anyway: if you get through the big midgame push and your opponent is effectively playing off the top minus a few cards left in their hand and you have even the same amount of cards left in your hand, but more lands and obviously one counter, you basically win. There have been so many times when I was sitting with a hand of lands and a kill creature or superfluous keg/disk post-push and my opponent just sat across from me and drew and said go because he assumed I was holding at least one counter spell, but expecting more. Not everyone does this obviously, but I have always noticed that if I get through the push and they run out of gas and I am able to refill, I win.

[Tea]

@ Pelikanudo
Probably, you will lose to combo.
That's why I would cut 4 relic of progenitus and 3 stifles and add 4 chalice of the void and 3 vendilion clique. However, the SB depends on the metagame. Relic of progenitus is definitely a useful card.

[Zappa]

So with M10 rules, I guess there's really no more reason to run Morphling versus Skybreaker?

What seems to be the most commonly agreed draw engine for the deck? Fact of Faction? Ancestral Visions?

Would Tidespout Tyrant be a good choice of another win condition?

[DragoFireheart]

How about a janky creature like Deep-Sea Kraken?

Cheap to suspend and is unblockable after it comes out, though it's probably too slow.

[Dembones]

"this is my list... thoughts?"
"do what you want, I don't care"
"ok, you like force spike, I like spell snare - let's just leave it at that"

it just doesn't get us anywhere.

</rant>

It wasn't really meant to be some sort of negative response, and if that's how it was received, forgive me.

I suggested a discussion in running some answer to resolved threats that made it through your counter wall when you were without Shackles or whatever. He clearly is more comfortable with the extra counter in force spike, and his reasoning is sound, who am I to argue further when he's already convinced?

[DragoFireheart]

It wasn't really meant to be some sort of negative response, and if that's how it was received, forgive me.

I suggested a discussion in running some answer to resolved threats that made it through your counter wall when you were without Shackles or whatever. He clearly is more comfortable with the extra counter in force spike, and his reasoning is sound, who am I to argue further when he's already convinced?

Your post came off as though "well he's not gonna listen, fuck him and just let him do what he wants".

Granted, it's hard to interpret the exact tone of posts at times, but it helps to clarify after the fact.

[Dembones]

Reading it now it does come off a bit... short. I wanted to go further into it, but it was almost four a.m., and I needed to go to bed, so I just ended it. Bad form on my part.

[Misplayer]

Wow, there's two posts on this same page from myself and Mordel discussing the continued viability of Morphling as a win-con, and not two posts later we're somehow back into an alternate win condition discussion because Morphling "sucks" now. Juh?

@ Pelikanudo
+1 for Tea's response. Stifle is weak sauce for sure and unless you want to completely give up the combo matchup I would recommend Chalice. Chalice is also a tank against Zoo/Goyf Sligh/Burn and it protects your Sowers from 3/4 of the removal in the format. My SB looks like: 4 Propaganda (aggro/Ichorid), 3 BEB (swap these for grave-hate if your meta calls for it), 3 Pithing Needle (against Top/Factory/Survival), 3 Chalice of the Void, 2 Jace Beleren (control mirror). I also play Keg main in case you were wondering.

[DragoFireheart]

Wow, there's two posts on this same page from myself and Mordel discussing the continued viability of Morphling as a win-con, and not two posts later we're somehow back into an alternate win condition discussion because Morphling "sucks" now. Juh?



I am not sure if you are referring to me, but I never stated that Superman "sucks". Sure, he's worse due to the rules change and is also not the super-power he used to be, but he's not bad by any stretch.

I was merely "Brainstorming" with other creatures that blue may use, though there isn't much other than the Superman.

[Mordel]

I have run CoS as an another win con since IBA(if I recall) suggested it and I begrudgingly went ahead and tested it because it seemed like something that I should test before just disagreeing with and I ended up liking it.

I'd run something like two morphlings and one CoS as wincon creatures and three shackles or something like that. There probably isn't anything wrong with sower, but I haven't got around to testing them and unless they're complimented with Kigas, I don't really see myself wanting to run a virtual control magic. Sorcery speed...weak body...a permanent that makes slots in my opponent's deck no longer dead. Feh. With Kiga, I bet they're some good, but MUC isn't on the top of my playtesting priorities right now since I am trying to find a deck that is as unaffected as possible from M10 rules that has already proven itself to be a competitor. MUC struck me as a deck that people either have a really good meta niche for or continue to play out of sheer stubborness a while back when I was testing it. Many of the top decks in the format are problem matches, so while MUC might make a big comeback when the meta shifts again, I don't really like using it online where it is basically 80% tier one decks to beat and 20% jank like pox and lesser tier decks which are a mixed bag.

If there was still a 1.5 place back home, I would totally rep MUC because I manage to win matches that I often have no business winning IRL, but on MWS shit talking/mind games and reading opponents isn't really something you can do to any great effect.

Judging by deckcheck, MUC isn't really so great many places right now.

[jthanatos]

So with M10 rules, I guess there's really no more reason to run Morphling versus Skybreaker?

What seems to be the most commonly agreed draw engine for the deck? Fact of Faction? Ancestral Visions?

Would Tidespout Tyrant be a good choice of another win condition?

Morphling is still about as good as he was, however, I never found room for him in my list, as rainbow efreet is easier to protect early pressure, and CtS is almost inevitable once it gets online. Morphling's best feature, in my opinion, was that he could answer mid-range aggro by eating their creatures, letting you win damage races all by himself. Some people swear by morphling, others find him not quite good enough. Your best bet is to test him yourself and see if he fits your playstyle and meta.

As far as draw engines, most decks run a combination of small early draws and big bomb draws.

The big bombs are Fact or Fiction and Ancestral Visions. I prefer Fact as it isn't a terrible late game top deck and digs deeper. Also, it combos well with the rest of my draw suite and with CtS. Visions is an awesome early game play, and has the advantage of keeping your opponent in the dark on your new resources. Once again, its a meta/personal preference call.

The early draw usually falls into one of 4 sets: Accumulated knowledge, brainstorm + fetches, impulse, and think twice. AK is an oldie but a goodie that gives some serious draw power late game, but is the slowest of the options. brainstorm + fetches digs deep, gives you filtering ability to send back dead cards, and the ability to splash cards to shore up weaknesses in MUC such as enchantment and creature removal. However, it also opens you up to stifles and nonbasic hate, things that MUC traditionally uses to its advantage by making them dead cards for our opponents. Also, brainstorm is less than ideal when you don't have a fetchland or shuffle online. Impulse digs the deepest, but never generates card advantage. Think twice is my personal choice, as its flashback ability usually prevents opponents from countering your cantrip, and it draws the most cards of the bunch, save Accumulated Knowledge. Even then, you have to cast all 4 AK's to draw more than Think Twice. The two biggests downsides I have found to Think Twice is how slowly it gets the draw engine rolling (7 mana for 3 cards and usually 3 turns, vs 4 mana for 3 cards in 2 turns with AK) and that, when combined with CtS, it makes graveyard hate a viable sideboard option for all those dead cards against us. In the end, once again, it's a personal call.

Small side note, Jace works well as a 1-of for supporting both the draw suite and the win conditions.

Tidespout Tyrant costs more than even CtS for the same body, doesn't protect himself well, and if we need bounce, we need it early game to keep us alive, not late game when shackles and kegs should be online.

Finally, MUC is a very odd creature in that there are many designs to it, and a lot of the slots are meta dependent. It has worked best for me to just tinker tinker tinker with the deck and sideboard against known decks in the area, until you can make the basic plays in your sleep and only need to really concentrate on the tricky stuff.

[Scrabble]

This is embarrassing. I lost to a Standard deck with my Legacy MUC. Why...

First off, I love MUC as it has an answer to everything. See counterspell. What would one do though, as an answer to.. Cascade Swans :cry:. I've been playing some local Legacy tourneys lately, and have never had trouble, especially when I play MUC. Dredge game me trouble one time, but I was prepared packing 3 Tormod's and 4 Relics in the SB. We ended up splitting 1st/2nd rather than playing out the 3rd game, as we had gone 1-1. The meta is usually fairly janky, with Standard/ experimental legacy decks, and the rare real Legacy deck. In the past there's been cascade Living End, Cascade Hypergenesis, Berserk stompy, Red aggro, Goblins, and Wildfire. Seeing such a varied meta, I always feel safe bringing good ole' MUC. But things got ugly last Tuesday.

Here's the list I played:

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Counterspell
2 Prohibit
3 Forbid
1 Misdirction

2 Fact or Fiction
4 Standstill

4 Treachery
1 Shackles
4 Powder Keg

1 Guile

4 Faerie Conclave
4 Factories
3 Quicksand
12 Island

SB:
4 Relic
3 Tormod's
3 Propaganda
5 other cards that never mattered

Anyway, I walked through every game until I came to last which was Cascade Swans. Every spell they play is 2, and they do nothing the first 4 turns of the game which my deck it geared to beat. What is a good way to deal with this deck, or is it just one of those enigmas not meant to be solved? I lost the first game as my plan was to shackles/treachery his elf beatz but it was just too slow. The second game I squeaked by by early factory attacks because I realized I didn't need open mana, and a timely Misdirection on the Green command for lifegain. Third game he boarded in Underworld dreams which snuck through as I attacked with factories. It was a slow and painful death. This is where I regretted playing only 1 finisher. Every other game I won through theft or manlands, or a timely Guile; I never felt like more than 1 was ever needed. But this game it became a race where manlands where just too slow.

So, what does one do to beat this deck? Double negative? Janky. More finishers? Possibly, maybe even the Polymorph/Progenitus, but that's just ugly against real Legacy decks packing swords and such. What are your suggestions?

BTW: I'm a big fan of the Chalices/Dazes. Feel free to question them, and I'll do my best to defend them as they have done very well for me.

[Paradigm Shift]

@ Scrabble

Pithing Needle shuts down their Assaults, as well as their many manlands. The Propaganda's should help a lot, as they slow down Bloodbraids and REALLY slow down their manland plan.

Are you worried about your opponent comboing on you? I don't see how any player could resolve two seperate sorcery-speed spells against you with minimum to no protection.

Also, as a creative way to answer manland, Volrath's Stronghold, and Academy Ruins troubles, you could try putting Annex in your board, essentially allowing you to Treachery their manlands. This also is a tempo boost by denying them mana, and accelerating you.

As long as you can land and keep a Pithing Needle on SA, you can treat Swans as a really bad version of 43lands with inefficiently-costed beaters.

[Mordel]

The most recent list losing to a type two deck doesn't surprise me at all.

[jthanatos]

The most recent list losing to a type two deck doesn't surprise me at all.

I'm not sure if you are mocking scrabble's...unusual... MUC list, or if you are just being snarky at MUC in general because M10 stole your lunch money.

@Scrabble

As far as dealing with swans, what is actually a threat in that deck other than seismic assault? Counter that, steal the elf or the swan, win the game? Your man lands are better than his. Maybe post sideboard there could be more threats, but game 1 should be yours. I do think you need to pick between daze and the pile of man lands, since the already slow nature of the deck is further hurt by bouncing your colored sources that don't come into play tapped. In addition, prohibit just seems bad compared to spell snare in almost all legacy matches (though, with the variety of type 2 and ext. decks you list in your area, I acknowledge it may be a tested met choice) Also, I have a hard time calling your deck pure MUC as it doesn't take advantage of the main reason to run MUC in Back to Basics, which would wreck swans. It seems like you are trying to meld MUC and Landstill into one deck without being able to take advantage of either ones strengths.

[Mordel]

if you are just being snarky at MUC in general because M10 stole your lunch money.

That doesn't make sense because I have been posting about how the archetype is virtually unaffected by the rules change(aka: morphling). Step up your reading game.

I replied in that way because the list that he posted is outright bad. Someone shouldn't have to go into mind-numbing details when there are over fifty pages devoted to explaining why said list is terrible.

There is "unorthodox" and then there is bad.

[jthanatos]

Indeed, why be useful and make posts relevant to the thread, when one can utter a nifty asinine quip instead.


MUC isn't on the top of my playtesting priorities right now since I am trying to find a deck that is as unaffected as possible from M10 rules that has already proven itself to be a competitor.

I suppose I must apologize, upon rereading this tidbit, I realize now that you feel MUC fails only the second criteria of your post. It was just very oddly worded. That whole post just sums up my reasoning not to value your opinions on deck changes too highly. The first line indicates you resist testing any changes or new ideas on the sheer principle of it, while later on you strongly indicate much of your success with the deck comes not from playskill, but from a combination of "shit-talking" and "opponent reading".

While I do agree with you on some points: Morphling still being ok (though I still like efreet better) and the viability of force spike/disrupt (especially disrupt, as it is the most common card I board in), I can't help but wonder at most of your posts on this thread. After stating a belief that MUC is having issues, you respond to any post attempting to test fixes to the problems with little more than a mixture of contempt and disdain. By the way, I emphasize test in the previous line, as that is all anyone so far has indicated as their goal. Testing of new things is not the same as advocating them over the old.

Essentially, I understand you don't feel this deck has much of a future, but is it too much to ask that when others are trying new things you respond with something more helpful than "Behold your cheerios, note both the arc and strength of my stream as I piss in them."

Now, to be fair, I am willing to admit that no part of me likes scrabble's list. I would even go so far to say it is little more than, sorry Scrabble, a "pile". The few solitaire tests I ran with it to see what it would look like versus swans just confirmed my fears. Hitting double blue early consistantly is a pain, and the lack of on demand early draw makes land drops iffy. Basically, you have taken an already slow archetype and slowed it down even more with tap lands and daze, while removing our best mid-game equalizer in Back to Basics.

[Mordel]

Skill does not fix a bad match when you are facing an opponent with equal or greater skill. Like I said before: much of the decks to beat are essentially bad matches for blue. These are fundamentally bad matches. There is an expression that goes "if it does not fit, don't force it". Playing MUC with many of the current most played decks strikes me as forcing it. I play MUC whenever I feel it can win and have years of experience playing draw-go, so I don't think playskill is an issue for me(about ten years of slinging counters, not counting turbo stasis and winter orb geddon, which go back further). Reading an opponent and playing the mind game of blue happens to be something that wins matches that MUC has no business winning. I don't know if that item actually saw contention, but I figured that I would clear it up right there.

Right now, if someone wants to play mono blue and see a great deal of success, they should probably play mono blue merfolk.

The metagame will shift again eventually and MUC may get it's juice back, but right now...not so great. Random MWS games are especially bad for it right now considering the abundance of pox and deadguy decks that I see, which are winnable matches, but extremely taxing and in the bad "your opponent not getting a good opening hand way and if they do praying they run out of gas or fail to follow up". Random MWS games that I have been getting over the last few months are definitely one of the worst possible places to pack MUC regardless of skill.

If someone wants to take it as a challenge to make the archetype as good as possible, they should at least refer to lists that have seen success recently and get some idea as to what is working, play the list a bit and see why it is working and then start from scratch or tune accordingly. There's a DIY ethic, which is good and then there is ignoring emperical data.

[jthanatos]

Skill does not fix a bad match when you are facing an opponent with equal or greater skill. Like I said before: much of the decks to beat are essentially bad matches for blue. These are fundamentally bad matches.

I cannot agree with this sentiment. In my play with the deck, MUC is only slightly off even, either to the good or the bad, with almost all the decks in both decks to beat and established decks (merfolk and game 1 ichorid not withstanding). I guess I have never taken MWS randoms too seriously as either a representative of a healthy meta, or as decision making as to the viability of an established deck. Obviously, if my homebrew is getting clobbered by randoms I should rethink it.

On the note of mindgames and what not, I understand there is a good degree deception in playing MUC. Heck, a hand of 5 islands and a keg can be as good as orim's chant when your opponent has just ripped his bomb. I fail to see how this changes much online, other than inability of my opponent to see my continous shit-eating grin.

As to your last point, I do not believe anyone has suggested a massive overhaul of the inner workings of the deck, just testing different win and control combinations. It is all well and good to say emperical data is the best basis for comparison, but, when data is lacking or nonexistant, one must try to gather one's own data via testing. Deck check is great at showing what can work, but, since the reporting of decks is limited to winners, a person must test other cards themselves to see if it is not at the top because it is terrible for the deck, or merely because it has not been run/well represented.

[Mordel]

Exactly, it's not run or well-represented because it isn't great right now.

[jthanatos]

Exactly, it's not run or well-represented because it isn't great right now.

The pronoun "it" refered to specific cards for testing, not the deck as a whole (and you questioned my reading tech, though I suppose it may be my fault for having the grammatical error of pairing a singular pronoun with a plural noun. Also, in the previous sentence, "it" is replacing "fault"). Also, the logic that it isn't heavily run because it is bad is most obviously faulty. Both combo and ichorid are very much underrepresented in most metas, yet few would argue they are not good decks. While you seem to have decided only a meta shift can bring back MUC, others feel tuning the deck for other strategies while retaining the core principles of board control and creating virtual card advantage can be extremely effective. From my own experience, MUC is still very much viable even in its present form, as it is very tunable for known metas.

I guess I just want some examples of all these extremely bad match ups MUC has right now as I have yet to find any in great number.

[Shawon]

Goblins and Zoo come to mind as bad matchups. Landstill can at least beat those decks.

[Misplayer]

Combo(!!!), Ichorid, Merfolk, Goyf Sligh more than Zoo, plus Probasco and Dreadstill style decks that only have light color splashes and can manuever under B2B quite easily are all decks that I don't want to see. Merfolk is the absolute ball-buster, not only because of Vial/Islandwalk retardedness, but their LD plan is causing many decks (like Landstill) to run a more stable manabase, which inadvertently improves their game against MUC.

Decks like Zoo and Goblins are not too difficult because they are primarly creature based. Cards like Shackles and Propaganda can ruin their day, plus B2B is strong in those matchups as well. Goyf Sligh, on the other hand, is more burn heavy, which represents some serious problems for MUC.

[Tea]

So back to basics is bad - against those decks?

[4eak]

So back to basics is bad - against those decks?

Not exactly bad, but definitely not the bomb it is against other archetypes.

Ichorid doesn't even needs its land to win, except against Propaganda (excluding Vindicate effects in the main, which few choose to include).

Combo can chain disrupt->bomb until you run out of counters, simply because you don't have a real clock. B2B remains good in this instance, but its just not the card I really wanted in the main for this matchup.

Heavy splash Zoo/Sligh are affected, but they often push through their last few points regardless of B2B.

Dreadstill and most other NLU decks are affected by B2B. It's a huge cut in tempo for these decks, as control matchups rely upon repeatedly untapping and tapping for resources as a part of winning the small battles which will eventually win the war. Way too many control matches are decided upon who had the most mana available throughout the game, as it gives you opportunities to push things into play or have the resources to stop your opponent from doing the same to you. B2B is still huge against NLU and Dreadstill.

Merfolk doesn't give a shit unless they wanted to Standstill/manland (as Dreadstill would attempt) lock you. Even then B2B hardly cuts off their most potent plays, which involve islandwalk and Vial.

B2B can be pretty good against Goblins Game 1 or when combined with Propaganda at any time. Not getting Ported down can be very useful, and against Goblins which splash (many do) it kills duals. B2B cuts off resources that would be necessary for them to sustain their long-term CA generating goals, that is, if the match even lasted long enough to get to that point.





peace,
4eak

[Mordel]

I don't have a particularly fun match against aggro loam either, but b2b and their relatively low number of threats make the match 55% or so if I had to pick a percentage off of the top of my head. I may just need more practice in that particular match though.

For a belated rebuttle to Jthanatos though, if you need to ask what the bad match ups are, you haven't been playing the deck enough.

I have found the merfolk match is a match that can be won through patience and skill if your merfolk opponent doesn't play MUC a lot. I find that disrupt/force spike are a mixed blessing in this match though: later, they don't matter, but early on, they are awesome for them trying to just rush threats and vials out, which is often a bad choice for them because of their comparatively small threat/reach density to other aggro decks that give MUC problems. Merfolk's dangerousness comes from standstill in conjunction with a few counters to make trades less advantageous(reference to our counters as being like vindicates in a sense) and lord. I've never really been too stoked on running fetches and such, so stifles never really hurt me that bad. A permanent-based MUC build would probably be stronger against 'folk.

A buddy of mine was playing merfolk a lot when I was still testing out my MUC build(s) and I found that I was liking spell snare and force spike in the match and would tend to side out 'spikes in more than a few games for annuls and he would still play around them and hold off on the first turn cursecatchers and vials when I was on the play. I also found that the coin flip was a particularly important aspect of the match for me because I always wanted to be a land ahead if I could and getting a FoW on a vial dazed was a huge kick in the dick, but at the same time vial is one of the biggest problems in the match. Keg would help, but vial would often get a lord out before I could get my shit together to resolve a keg unmolested and pop one without a stifle ruining my fun.

Elves was another match that I wasn't too stoked on for similar reason to merfolk. In some ways it's an easier match, but they have an insane threat density and a resolved messenger is shitty. Many of their creatures aren't particularly intimidating, but I've played a few guys that know how to pace themselves and just get a 3dmg clock going and then forced me to trade every few turns to keep my card quality down a bit. Masticore and Shackles stole elves game one for me though. It was once k-grip and choke got thrown in the mix that things would get unpleasant. One fucker even brought in guttural responses(?!!!!)

A super tuned permanent-based build with E.tutor(as much as I hate the card disadvantage from it) and some E.E.s and other random bullets seems like it could do well, but in many ways, one might as well go the rest of the way and just make a landstill deck.

For reference purposes, this is a permanent/E.tutor build that I was dicking around with:


// Lands
8 [US] Island (3)
6 [US] Island (2)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [A] Tundra
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [R] Tropical Island

// Creatures
2 [US] Morphling

// Spells
1 [REW] Powder Keg
1 [US] Back to Basics
4 [LG] Force Spike
3 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FNM] Counterspell
1 [EVE] Call the Skybreaker
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [REW] Powder Keg
SB: 2 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [US] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 2 [US] Annul
SB: 1 [UD] Masticore
SB: 4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares

It's fairly unpolished and could obviously use sideboard alterations, like propaganda and maybe a blessing or two for attrition games(I've always been a fan of FoFing a blessing). I actually had a pretty decent game against my buddy's merfolk deck with this build, but I ended up discovering a different deck that I found myself winning with more that was a bit easier to test because I didn't get all the S:PL messages from someone discovering that I was playing MUC. Another ruins was something that I found myself wanting to add even. If I recall, the sixty-first card was a ruins that I put in before a mini tournament.

Again; it could use tuning, but that was my version of a more splashy sort of draw-go.

[Misplayer]

Dreadstill and most other NLU decks are affected by B2B. It's a huge cut in tempo for these decks, as control matchups rely upon repeatedly untapping and tapping for resources as a part of winning the small battles which will eventually win the war. Way too many control matches are decided upon who had the most mana available throughout the game, as it gives you opportunities to push things into play or have the resources to stop your opponent from doing the same to you. B2B is still huge against NLU and Dreadstill.

Probasco's NLU ran 6 cards maindeck that could not be played off his 6 basic Islands: 4 Goyf and 2 Grip. B2B is going to hamper them slightly, but they can still assemble Counter-Top and lock you out pretty easily from that point on. No, it's not a hard lock, but they can flip cards to trade with your Counterspells and Spell Snares, and that list runs enough 3ccs to hit bombs like Shackles/additional B2Bs. Eventually they play a Goyf which you either have to Force or have Morphling/CtS to answer. Otherwise, you're in really rough shape, staring down CB/Top/Goyf. Dreadstill can do this pretty well too, as they usually play 4-6 Islands and can still assemble CB/Top and go Stifle-Nought. For these reasons, I wouldn't classify B2B as huge in either of those matchups. Spell Snare is effing gigantic as you need to keep CB/Top off the board at all costs.

On Merfolk: I don't think it's as bad as I thought it was originally. Islandwalk is pretty meaningless because MUC is not a control deck that blocks often. Propaganda and Shackles give them tremendous headaches, and with all the Merfolk/Zoo running around currently I think a permanent based MUC deck could fare pretty decently packing 4x Prop/4x B2B/3x Shackles and 4x Keg.

For what it's worth, I've found B2B to absolutely dominate Aggro-Loam. Keg for Mox Diamond, and Loam is worth countering if they have <1 untapable mana source (obviously). Sower is also very powerful in this matchup.

[4eak]

@ Misplayer


Probasco's NLU ran 6 cards maindeck that could not be played off his 6 basic Islands: 4 Goyf and 2 GripYou threw NLU in together with Dreadstill. I took that to mean a very wide range of CB-Top decks.

I didn't say you can't build these decks to be resistant to the effects of B2B. But, frankly, most NLU and Dreadstill decks I've faced are extensively damaged by B2B. You've overestimated the amount of basics most of these decks run. I didn't say it was unwinnable for them if B2B is in play, but their tempo is cut short. Obviously having a good win con in their pocket (Goyf) is a lot of tempo already in their favor, but that isn't what I was discussing at all.

My discussion of these decks had nothing to do with "how to beat them", it was simply an explanation of how B2B affects most CB matchups.



On Merfolk: I don't think it's as bad as I thought it was originally. Islandwalk is pretty meaningless because MUC is not a control deck that blocks often.MUC definitely blocks often. Shackles is a defensive tool first and an offensive tool only later in the game.

Practice that matchup more. Islandwalk turns their side of the table into an alpha strike. Islandwalk is gamebreaking and negates the value of Shackles, which is usually much more useful in trading and attrition wars.





peace,
4eak

[Antonius]

has anyone considered running a red splash in MUC? I've seen the white splash and green splash brought up but it seems (at least on the surface) that red would shore up the deck's tougher matchups. Pyroclasm destroys every goblin (and Merfolk) in the deck, Fire/Ice can two-for-one and red elemental blast/pyroblast are powerful for control mirrormatches (and, again, against merfolk)

The main problem with red (at least vs other splashes) is that its removal is not good against Goyf, tombstalker or any other fat creatures.

anyways, this is the build I'm starting with:

(24) Land
10 Island
5 Fetchlands
4 Volcanic Island
1 Steam Vents
4 Wasteland

(2) Creatures
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought

(34) Spells
3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Fire/Ice
4 Force Spike
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Fact or Fiction

(15) SB
3 Pyroclasm
4 Red Elemental Blast
8 ???

Right now I'm running Dreadnoughts just 'cause I have them and because I'm running 4 stifles main. Detritivore could be run as a win con, though his power varies with the matchups--he can be a house against Landstill and meh against Merfolk. I'm sort of pressed to think of other impressive win-cons that Red can bring to the deck; if I run into any, I'll probably drop noughts for them.
I also want to find room for Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon, but I'm not sure which spots to drop.

anyone think this can work?

[Misplayer]

@ Misplayer

You threw NLU in together with Dreadstill. I took that to mean a very wide range of CB-Top decks.

I didn't say you can't build these decks to be resistant to the effects of B2B. But, frankly, most NLU and Dreadstill decks I've faced are extensively damaged by B2B. You've overestimated the amount of basics most of these decks run. I didn't say it was unwinnable for them if B2B is in play, but their tempo is cut short. Obviously having a good win con in their pocket (Goyf) is a lot of tempo already in their favor, but that isn't what I was discussing at all.
I guess we must be facing different builds then. I mentioned "Probasco Style NLU" specifically because they are so light in splash colors. Probasco's deck is also a control deck, so it's not looking for tempo. However, if they can drop an early Goyf and ride it to victory then they'll obviously be willing to do that. B2B doesn't slow them in this sense. Against a competent player that knows he's facing MUC, I would expect him to go Aggro until B2B hits and then go into lockdown control mode via Counter-Top and an eventual singular threat.

The Dreadstill I'm referring to is the Ugr build, where the only non-blue cards maindeck are Goyf and EE. This deck is also a control deck that can go "oops I win" with Stifle-Nought and can also go Aggro with an early Goyf or two.

All B2B does against either deck is force them into a control mirror, which they will usually win if they can assemble Counter-Top. In other words, a good Probasco NLU/Dreadstill pilot will not waste his counters on B2B (unless he can Daze it, but you're not running B2B into Daze any time soon) and will save his FoWs for cards like Shackles.



MUC definitely blocks often. Shackles is a defensive tool first and an offensive tool only later in the game.

Practice that matchup more. Islandwalk turns their side of the table into an alpha strike. Islandwalk is gamebreaking and negates the value of Shackles, which is usually much more useful in trading and attrition wars.

I completely agree, but in order for Islandwalk to be relevant in this situation, they need to resolve 2 Lords of Atlantis. Sure, this will happen occasionally, but a singular LoA is significantly less worrisome for MUC than for other Blue-based decks as you either have Shackles to steal it and block with it, or you don't have Shackles and your back's up against the wall.

Aside: I hope I'm not coming off as arguementative. You're making your points very rationally and I'm attempting to make counter-points as I see them.

[Jason]

has anyone considered running a red splash in MUC? I've seen the white splash and green splash brought up but it seems (at least on the surface) that red would shore up the deck's tougher matchups. Pyroclasm destroys every goblin (and Merfolk) in the deck, Fire/Ice can two-for-one and red elemental blast/pyroblast are powerful for control mirrormatches (and, again, against merfolk)

The main problem with red (at least vs other splashes) is that its removal is not good against Goyf, tombstalker or any other fat creatures.


I have thought if a person were to splash for a color, a red splash in MUC might be worth trying. I would definitely see the deck having a similar style as Dreadstill in the fact it wouldn't actually main deck any red cards and just run 2x Volcanic Island with 6-7 fetches. That way we would have access to Pyroclasm and REB out of the board. Unfortunately this opens us up to Stifle and Wasteland effects, so I'm still not sold on the idea.



anyways, this is the build I'm starting with:

(24) Land
10 Island
5 Fetchlands
4 Volcanic Island
1 Steam Vents
4 Wasteland

(2) Creatures
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought

(34) Spells
3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Fire/Ice
4 Force Spike
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Fact or Fiction

(15) SB
3 Pyroclasm
4 Red Elemental Blast
8 ???

Right now I'm running Dreadnoughts just 'cause I have them and because I'm running 4 stifles main. Detritivore could be run as a win con, though his power varies with the matchups--he can be a house against Landstill and meh against Merfolk. I'm sort of pressed to think of other impressive win-cons that Red can bring to the deck; if I run into any, I'll probably drop noughts for them.
I also want to find room for Blood Moon or Magus of the Moon, but I'm not sure which spots to drop.

anyone think this can work?

This looks like a generic Stifle+Nought list, only with more problems than Dreadstill has. The play-style of this deck isn't going to fully take advantage of the tempo gained by Stifle and Wasteland and Fire/Ice. Dreadnought is an extremely vulnerable win-condition (it dies to all spot removal, mass removal and even KGrips and doesn't come back); you have nothing if they both die. Along with changing the win-conditions, I would look into running Back to Basics and/or Blood Moon for sure if you want this to remain "MUC-like"; if not, your deck can easily be modified to look like UR Dreadstill.

[Pelikanudo]

Hello , I have updated the list , playing some games in mwstation, watching some lists, accepting new ideas, and the list is as follows:
I have some axiomas having in mind other archetypes, and the Fahled approach or archetype of the deck, the conclusions are next :

23 Islands

4 Sower of Temptation
3 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Meloku
1 Call the Skybreaker

// the counters
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Counterspell
4 Force Spike

// the bombs
4 Vedalken Shackles
4 Back to Basics

// the draw
4 Fact or Fiction

// Sideboard:
SB: 4 Powder Keg // For vials, our worst nitgmare and 3shold mainly
SB: 4 Relic of progetnitus // For ichorid and loam and 3shold mainly
SB: 4 REB // For gobbos and burn mainly
SB: 3 Vendilion clique
.
- Definataly no brainstorm , because, it digs only one card and because, this deck is configured to win creatures deck and counter every thing else , and this cards which is made of are counters and control magic, we'll have supposed to have the cards in hand to battle those threats or draw them early, as we have full set of them (between counters and control magic I mean)
- definately no fetches
- definately no splashes

Objetives:
- not loose to stifle-my fetch
- not loose to moon ,B2B,wasteland effects.
- have the base configured to steal creatures and use them as kill cond


About the side :
- At first I carried 3 stifles instead 3 Vendilion , but vendilion makes vs loam matchups in conjunction to relics a way to avoid recursion ,
- As well Vendilion is a way to perform better our strategy of putting in play bombs like B2B in landstill or Veldaken in creatures
decks with antiartifact cards from their side,
- also it's good vs those combo A.Nauseam decks, even better than our useless stifle,
- and also helps a litle in burn, so definately Vendilion¡.
- The rest of cards are absolutly logical and inmutable for me:
. Poder keg : Because it's not in the base
. Relic : Versus Loam and Icho mainly
. BEB : Versus Gobbos and Burn mainly


Some points to have in mind about its evolution:
the meloku and call T.SB at first were 2 morphling but now morphilng is not as good, so next I tried 2 Meloku, but Jason told me to use instead 1 meloku 1 Call The Sky Breaker, and I'm happy with it, very happy.
The 3 kira + 4 Sower have been perfect in the match ups, and sometimes kira + meloku or kira + Call The Sky Breaker have been quite sinergistic too .

About the match ups :
Vs Goblins : I' ve decided to side in 4 BEB + 4 Powder Keg and side out:
4 spells snare 4 back to basics (depends on the number of type color he plays)

Vs Loam : -4 B2B -4 F.Spike - 3 Kira : +4Powder K, +4Relic + 3Vendilion

Vs 3shold: Deppends on the build but for sure +4 powder in.

Vs Landstill - 4 sower - 3 kira : +3 vendilion + 4 powder k.

Vs Burn : - 4 Vedalken - 4 B2B -3 Sower: +4 BEB + 4Powder K +3 Vendilion

Thougths :
I ve been playing the deck and I'm falling in love with it , I love its stable mana base, and its compact design.
I also love playing cards like B2B or Vedalken, becuase on their own are really devastating.
The point about Powder Keg is that most of the times I side them in full set, and becuase of this issue I'm thinking in put them in the base, but I go on preferring keeping them in the side becuase the cards I mainly side out in the different match ups are quite different between them in the place of the 4 powder and usually for me is not difficult to win at least first match up (I won the other day 2-0 to a slivers match up even with cristaline and vial).
When before I played U/B/G/W Landstill one of the worst match up I found was Dragon Stompy, now playing this archetype this match up is our best one :)

A point : I expect our opponent doesn't play circle of protection: blue, becauase we can not batle this

Well, Ideas , Thoutghs, Onions(pi) ?

[Tea]

24 Island

4 vedalken shackles
4 sower of temptation

4 force of will
4 spell snare
4 counterspell
4 force spike

4 fact or fiction
4 think twice
4 cunning wish

SB: 4 back to basics
SB: 4 chalice of the void
SB: 4 blue elemental blast
SB: 1 Dominate
SB: 1 Foil
SB: 1 Cryptic command


I have tried to improve my combo match-up without loosing my strength in other match-ups.
That’s why I have taken out powder keg and replaced them with Cunning wish.
I think the only real advantage of powder keg over Cunning wish, that matters, is Aether Vial, however apart from that Cunning wish is superior. Aether Vial can still be countered.
Actually Cunning wish fetching Dominate is just a turn slower than powder keg in order to deal with creatures. Having Foil, I have the possibility to counter with Cunning wish on turn three if this is needed and this may be needed in the Combo match-up. You can drop Vedalken Shackles which is dead in this match-up or think twice which has flashback.
My wish-board may look a little bit thin, but Foil and Cryptic Command are spells which can be fetched in every match-up. Don’t forget that you can also hardcast Foil.
Furthermore, almost every deck runs creatures, so you can fetch Dominate in almost every match-up, too. I wonder if Cunning wish can fetch an instant which has been removed from the game by force of will?
I have decided on Cryptic Command as my third wish-target because I wanted a bounce spell in case my opponent plays humility or something like that. I have preferred Cryptic Command to Echoing truth, because the effect of echoing truth looks so small. But I may be wrong.
Sower of Temptation is protected neither by Kira nor by chalice of the void, because I think that Sower of Temptation is not needed to take control over the game.
Nevertheless, I have the possibility to fetch foil with cunning wish on turn three in order to protect Sower of temptation on turn four.
In the combo match-up Sower of Temptation can put the opponent under pressure. However, some of them can be replaced with vendilion clique as vendilion clique is superior in this match-up.

On paper this deck looks very strong:
- perfect mana-curve
- A lot of draw power (4 fact, 4 TT)
- Everything we can get out of blue for the early game (4 force spike, 4 spell snare, 4 fow)
- fast Cunning wish (foil)
- we can put the combo player under pressure (Sower)
- a lot of bombs (shackles, sower, Dominate)
- combined with Consistency (only islands, a lot of draw), so we can play the bombs in time and win the late game
- btb, although in the SB
- a lot of spells dodge counterbalance
- not many dead cards against combo (only shackles) unlike this is the case with Landstill

I have dropped all of the win-conditions; to win the game I solely rely on shackles, sowers, and dominate. I think this is enough. What do you think?

No back to basics in the mainboard. This may depend on the metagame, but I think that btb is not needed that this deck is strong.

[Zir]

Tea:
Have you found yourself able to beat combo reliably? You can't put any pressure on them whatsoever, your sower comes down turn 4 at the earliest and takes 10 turns to kill them. That gives them 14 turns to try and go off, and you only have so many counterspells. I'd cut down on the draw a bit and add some cards to make sure you can provide extra pressure.
I haven't tested your build yet, but it looks kind of clunky with 8 4CC and 8 3 CC cards.

As for your question, it can't (well, not anymore). Due to the errata, there's now a distinction between cards exiled and cards outside of the game.

Pelikanudo:
How are you doing in those matchups? Have you tested zoo?

[4eak]

@ Misplayer

I haven't been arguing about specific decks in your or my meta. This is about the average.


The Dreadstill I'm referring to is the Ugr build, where the only non-blue cards maindeck are Goyf and EE. This deck is also a control deck that can go "oops I win" with Stifle-Nought and can also go Aggro with an early Goyf or two.

Average Dreadstill Manabase:

3.96- Island

3.04- Flooded Strand
2.80 - Polluted Delta
(Only 3.96 fetches maximum can be used for Islands, assuming you drew no Islands, leaving 1.88 for Duals)

3.78 - Mishra's Factory
2.99 - Wasteland
1.13 - Volcanic Island
1.50 - Tropical Island

Well over half the mana-base gets rocked by B2B. B2B is a strong tempo play against Dreadstill. Does that mean you will win because of B2B? No. But, it is certainly devastating enough to buy time for MUC to generate massive card advantage under the asymmetry of B2B's effect.

B2B forces Dreadstill into a bottleneck, and it weakens several cards and synergies in the process, including the sideboard.

Countertop is devastating. And, one of MUC's best shots at winning is by using B2B. B2B cuts off the value of Countertop and Standstill, while enabling MUC to more than double the amount of mana that would be available to the Dreadstill player at any point in the game.

Mana resources win counterwars. Mana resources let you chain bomb. Mana advantage is the catalyst to the snowball of card advantage that the control player seeks.


I completely agree, but in order for Islandwalk to be relevant in this situation, they need to resolve 2 Lords of Atlantis.

Not true.

Lord of Atlantis
Creature - Merfolk 2/2, UU (2)
Other Merfolk creatures get +1/+1 and have islandwalk.

Without a sweeper, you are screwed if LoA hits play. Period.

With countermagic and Vial, they have good odds of resolving/abusing it.


@ Pelikanudo


Vs Loam : -4 B2B -4 F.Spike - 3 Kira : +4Powder K, +4Relic + 3Vendilion

Averages from 225 Loam decks:

3.06222222222 - Forgotten Cave
3.10222222222 - Taiga
2.73777777778 - Tranquil Thicket
3.60888888889 - Wasteland
1.02666666667 - Badlands
0.951111111111 - Bayou
0.697777777778 - Volrath's Stronghold
1.95111111111 - Bloodstained Mire
3.54666666667 - Wooded Foothills
0.524444444444 - Windswept Heath

1.36888888889 - Forest
1.0 - Mountain
3.87555555556 - Mox Diamond

You take out B2B against that?






peace,
4eak

[Pelikanudo]

I've been trying loam match ups and taking out B2B becuase trying this change I go on winning,
The choice is that I have to side in 11 cards
which cards will you take out ?

[4eak]

@ Pelikanudo

I'm not advocating your list. But, if I was playing it, I'd board like this:

-3 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
-1 Call the Skybreaker
-4 Force Spike
-1 Meloku

+4 Powder keg
+4 Relic
+1 Clique

CtS + Relic is not a combo.





peace,
4eak

[Misplayer]

4eak,
I think we'll have to agree to disagree about B2B in certain Dreadstill/NLU matchups. I was way off on Lord of Atlantis, maybe I just wanted it to say "you control" so that's what I assumed it said. In light of this, I agree with your analysis: the matchup is pretty brutal.

[idraleo]

The only way to handle Merfolk if you don' t wanna to get the splash is a 2-3x of Llawan, Cephalid Empress in your sideboard. As Llawan hits the board, your opponent normally shuffle up his library and ask you to play the third game...

[Jason]

Averages from 225 Loam decks:

3.06222222222 - Forgotten Cave
3.10222222222 - Taiga
2.73777777778 - Tranquil Thicket
3.60888888889 - Wasteland
1.02666666667 - Badlands
0.951111111111 - Bayou
0.697777777778 - Volrath's Stronghold
1.95111111111 - Bloodstained Mire
3.54666666667 - Wooded Foothills
0.524444444444 - Windswept Heath

1.36888888889 - Forest
1.0 - Mountain
3.87555555556 - Mox Diamond

You take out B2B against that?


Agreed. The reason I win against Loam is because of Back to Basics. It absolutely destroys them. It's much worse than Magus of the Moon. You cannot take them out.

Depending on the build of the deck, I would probably side as follows:
+4 Relic
+3 Powder Keg
+3 Blue Elemental Blast
-3 Kira
-1 Call the Skybreaker
-4 Force Spike
-2 Vedalken Shackles

Obviously, if the build ran more creatures, I would probably leave the Shackles in, but I have seen some with no more than 4x Tarmogoyf and 2x Countryside Crusher (which is really hard to steal with Shackles)

[Glorfindel]

Against Merfolk, can't we use Snow-Covered Islands? Or am I missing something here?

[Elfrago]

Against Merfolk, can't we use Snow-Covered Islands? Or am I missing something here?

Snow covered or not, islandwalk works anyway.:tongue:

[Glorfindel]

Oh, duh, my bad. I should RTFC(omprehensive)R(ules).
I was confused by some cards like Rime Dryad which have snow-covered forestwalk (which obviously doesn't work on normal forests).

[Ombras]

I think that MUC, in a combo-metagame like this, must run X copies of Vendilion Clique, that resolves so many matchs (ANT, Enchantress, TES), but, first, must have almost 3-4 copy of Stifle/Trickblind in the Sideboard (I prefere the second) against storm-combo (Solidarity, ANT; TES...).

Then, I had find a probably useless card in my library, ''Divert''. I think that this tech could be use in the sideboard against Black Based Deck (Pikula, Eva Green, Aggro Rock, MBA) and to resolve counter's battles (against Blue based control). What do you think?

[DeMarki]

I'm currently building a Mono Blue Control deck, mostly to play with my friends and participate in local tournaments, however I have a couple questions:

1) Should I run 1-2 Misdirection main, or put them sideboard?

2) I chose to run 4 Showers instead of shackles, I like the fact that it can steal all creatures and it can hit for 2 per turn. My meta is creature heavy, you think 4 are too many?

[4eak]

@ DeMarki


1) Should I run 1-2 Misdirection main, or put them sideboard?

Neither. MisD has no targets worth the CdisA in Legacy.


2) I chose to run 4 Showers instead of shackles, I like the fact that it can steal all creatures and it can hit for 2 per turn. My meta is creature heavy, you think 4 are too many?

Creature heavy metagames are perfect for Shackles. Sower is really at its best against aggro-control, but not so much against Aggro decks. If your metagame is really that creature heavy, then you really should go with Shackles.

Krosan Grip and Qasali Pridemage are the only real reasons one should consider Sower over Shackles. That risk is very often worth it in creature heavy metas.

Your land base and draw consistency should be quite stable to support Vedalken Shackles.




peace,
4eak

[UberNewHacks]

We are no longer considering Morphling as a win condition due to the M10 rules changes, correct?

[Dembones]

We are no longer considering Morphling as a win condition due to the M10 rules changes, correct?

A few pages back there is a bit of "discussion" about it. I think Morphling is still considered best.

[deadlock]

Following Wizards new direction and going to play just dumb and warm bodys in the form of two Call the Skybreaker (+ Shackles ofc) in my list.

[deadlock]

Sorry for the double post, but this thread needed a bump.


So, noo love for muc?
...
Then what about Moon MUCr:

// Lands
1 [B] Tropical Island
6 [SHM] Island (2)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Spells
3 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [MR] Chalice of the Void
2 [SHM] Firespout
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [DD2] Fact or Fiction
4 [DD2] Counterspell
2 [EVE] Call the Skybreaker
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DK] Blood Moon

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
SB: 2 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [LRW] Sower of Temptation

Basically you switch out B2B for Blood Moon and pick up some nice perks along the way.
The current build can set Chalice to 1 and 2 without much hurt (only BS and CS are affected).
The maindeck is supposed to present no real target for spot removal, so that Magus and Sower can savely brought in g2-3.

[Dembones]

Sorry for the double post, but this thread needed a bump.


So, noo love for muc?
...
Then what about Moon MUCr:

// Lands
1 [B] Tropical Island
6 [SHM] Island (2)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Spells
3 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [MR] Chalice of the Void
2 [SHM] Firespout
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [DD2] Fact or Fiction
4 [DD2] Counterspell
2 [EVE] Call the Skybreaker
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DK] Blood Moon

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
SB: 2 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 3 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [LRW] Sower of Temptation

Basically you switch out B2B for Blood Moon and pick up some nice perks along the way.
The current build can set Chalice to 1 and 2 without much hurt (only BS and CS are affected).
The maindeck is supposed to present no real target for spot removal, so that Magus and Sower can savely brought in g2-3.


I'm not sure if a deck that is built to prey on decks with weak mana bases should run so many non basics.

[MTG-Fan]

// Lands
17 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
3 [CS] Scrying Sheets
2 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
1 [MR] Platinum Angel

// Spells
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [FNM] Counterspell
1 [TE] Capsize
3 [US] Back to Basics
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
2 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
4 [UD] Powder Keg

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 4 [DIS] Spell Snare
SB: 4 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [AQ] Energy Flux
SB: 2 [IA] Hydroblast

[Tea]

It’s a pity that no one is talking anymore about MUC, as it is my favourite deck.
I have built two versions which are very similar; one with a white-splash.

Lands: 23
3 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
17 island

draw: 12
4 fact or fiction
4 think twice
4 brainstorm

counter: 16
4 force of will
4 counterspell
4 spell snare
4 force spike

Board-control: 7
4 vedalken shackles
3 nevinyrral’s disk

win-condition: 2
2 Morphling

SB: 4 back to basics
SB: 4 blue elemental blast
SB: 4 relic of progenitus
SB: 3 Disrupt

-------------------------------

Lands: 23
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
1 plain
1 tundra
1 swamp
12 island

draw: 12
4 fact or fiction
4 think twice
4 brainstorm

counter: 12
4 force of will
4 counterspell
4 spell snare

Board-control: 11
4 swords to plowshares
4 vedalken shackles
3 engineered explosives

win-condition: 2
2 decree of justice

SB: 4 back to basics
SB: 4 blue elemental blast
SB: 4 relic of progenitus
SB: 3 Disrupt


In my former builds, I run a draw-engine of 4 FoF and 4 TT, but sometimes my hand was very clunky – especially when I didn’t draw a TT – thus I have decided to include BS.
However, this problem couldn’t be solved by just replacing TT with BS.

BtB is strong, but it has nothing to do with the gameplan of the deck, so I have found it to be acceptable to put it into the SB, as I really needed room for a strong draw-engine and a strong counter-suite.


I apologize for my English.^^

[Gui]

Don't you think "strong draw engines" should benefit better of running several different situational solutions and finding then instead of several 4-ofs?
MUC is not quite great in the format these days, but if I would run it, I would probably go to a 2~3 B2B version with at least 1~2 Kira MD since it's faster than Morphling
3 Nevinyrral's seems too much in the mono-u version, and 3EE seems too much in the MUbwC too... you probly should go Kegs...

I like MUC to me more of a Tempo delayer until and after you get a finisher, which can be morphling or anything else... that's why I would run strong draws, some board solutions against rushs, and couters which are the deck objective... And I would prefer Kira over Morphling cos it's easier to do the tempo role...

Just thoughts thou... Probably MU merfolks is a lot more consistant than MUC

[Tea]

Don't you think "strong draw engines" should benefit better of running several different situational solutions and finding then instead of several 4-ofs?
Which cards do you have exactly in your mind speaking of “several different situational solutions”?


3 Nevinyrral's seems too much in the mono-u version, and 3EE seems too much in the MUbwC too... you probly should go Kegs...
I don’t have tutors; that’s why I hesitate to reduce their numbers.


MUC is not quite great in the format these days, but if I would run it, I would probably go to a 2~3 B2B version with at least 1~2 Kira MD since it's faster than Morphling

I like MUC to me more of a Tempo delayer until and after you get a finisher, which can be morphling or anything else... that's why I would run strong draws, some board solutions against rushs, and couters which are the deck objective... And I would prefer Kira over Morphling cos it's easier to do the tempo role...
You may refer to that version which runs Kira in order to protect Sower of Temptation and solely rely on FoF as its draw-engine.
Well, Sower of temptation is faster than Morphling, but through Vedalken shackles, I think, I’m just as fast.
I personally prefer to play this deck heavily controllish having the ability to go aggro with shackles.

Morphling as a finisher is okay, but what I don’t like about him is that he is dead in the early game. I wish I could run 4 Eternal dragon^^, since he can be cycled.
What do you think of drifting djinn? However, he is bad finisher.

Shall I cut Brainstorm? Honestly, I’m not very impressed by Brainstorm. Moreover, loosing a land to stifle or wasteland is very crucial.

[MTG-Fan]

In my MUC deck, I run 1 Rainbow Efreet and 1 Call the Skybreaker.

If you can survive long enough, Call the Skybreaker becomes an unstoppable win condition, as long as it isn't Extirpated. Rainbow Efreet is the backup plan, alongside 3 Shackles.

[Silent Requiem]

Morphling as a finisher is okay, but what I don’t like about him is that he is dead in the early game. I wish I could run 4 Eternal dragon^^, since he can be cycled.
What do you think of drifting djinn? However, he is bad finisher.

Shall I cut Brainstorm? Honestly, I’m not very impressed by Brainstorm. Moreover, loosing a land to stifle or wasteland is very crucial.

I'm afraid I find your post confusing. On one hand you complain that morphling is dead in the early game, and an the other you say that you are disappointed with brainstorm. It would seem to me that the one solves the other quite handily.

Brainstorm is not just about drawing more cards so that you always have counters available. It is also about throwing away cards that you don't need right now. Put morphling back on top of your library and crack a fetchland.

Given that this option is available (or pitching morphling to a FoW early on), I don't see why you would want to switch out the morphling. You don't run many threats in MUC, so you need them to stick around. Superman is very flexible, and very hard to remove.

I appreciate that I play Solidarity rather than MUC, but I suspect that many of our (pre combo) principles are very similar. Brain Freeze is "dead" in my opening hand, but I have never wished that I had a cycling version.

-Silent Requiem

[Tea]

On one hand you complain that morphling is dead in the early game, and an the other you say that you are disappointed with brainstorm. It would seem to me that the one solves the other quite handily.
This is why I have added Brainstorm. I have been playing too many high CC cards and Morphling is just one of them. At the moment I don’t want to cut any of these high CC cards, but I would like to find a way to smooth the deck out a bit. If Morphling had cycling like Eternal dragon, I would have found a way. Remember that you can get Eternal dragon back in the lategame.
Unfortunately, Brainstorm doesn’t work out as I want it to.
It is very important to drop a land each turn up to turn 5. However, if I play 2/3 fetchlands at the beginning (up to turn 5), it seems that the deck-thinning effect is contra-productive, because I really have to draw those lands. Moreover they can be stifled and if I fetch the tundra to play a StP, wasteland becomes another problem.

[Silent Requiem]

I very much understand where you are coming from on the land drops, because my deck HAS to make the first 4 drops or it folds to anything with a fast clock.

That said, I do feel that 8 fetchlands are too much. They are open to Stifle, and you may often find that you are taking too much self inflicted damage. I find 6 to be pretty optimal, but then I am not having to fetch off colours the way that one of your builds is.

With regards to "over thinning", this is a risk, but less so if you can avoid breaking them right away. Or, include fewer of them. Note that even though Solidarity needs lands almost as much as you, we only run 18. You have a 5 land advantage on us that may not be necessary.

Now, one thing that stands out to me is that my Solidarity build runs far more draw than MUC (duh), and that MUC exchanges this draw for counters. The logic is pretty solid, but I do wonder if you couldn't smooth out your decks by running more draw. Perhaps Impulse. It's cheap, grabs lands, and digs deep.

Looking at your draw suite more closely, I can't say that I particularly like it. FoF is clunky, but at least in generates card advantage (you can't abuse Meditate the way I can). Think Twice also generates card advantage, but for one more mana on the first cast, and one less on the second cast, you could get the far more powerful Flash of Insight.

Opt is also stellar, as it is cheaper than Think Twice, and it digs deeper (no card advantage, though). It could be really useful for grabbing those early lands. You might consider reducing the number of lands you play and increasing your cheap draw. Opt can be cast on one land at the end of your opponent's turn, and digs 2 deep.

-Silent Requiem

[MTG-Fan]

Listen... as far as draw engines go, all you need are either 4 Ancestral Vision or 4 Thirst for Knowledge, depending on your preferences and your build, and 2-3 Fact or Fiction.

Presto, you have a the perfect draw engine for MUC.

[Shawon]

Thirst for Knowledge actually sucks. It's way too slow, and +1 CA is hardly impressive.

You want 4 Fact or Fiction in every MUC variant.

[Arsenal]

I don't see the problem with:

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Fact or Fiction

or

4 Brainstorm
4 Fact or Fiction

After that, I personally use 2x Jace Beleren (meta is pretty control oriented, slower aggro). What problems are people running into with those draw suites?

[Antonius]

I just had an interesting thought--has anyone experimented with running MUC built around Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors and Chalice of the Void?

[MTG-Fan]

Thirst for Knowledge actually sucks. It's way too slow, and +1 CA is hardly impressive.

You want 4 Fact or Fiction in every MUC variant.

Whoa whoa whoa.

TfK suck? I don't think so. That's why I said "depending on your build". As long as you run 2-3 Academy Ruins, and 12+ artifacts (Disks, Chalices, Tops, Relics, Shackles, Explosives, whatever), it's +2 CA for 3 mana at their EOT.

4 Fact or Fiction is too slow. You DON'T want 2 of these in your first 3 turns.

[Jason]

I don't see the problem with:

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Fact or Fiction

or

4 Brainstorm
4 Fact or Fiction

After that, I personally use 2x Jace Beleren (meta is pretty control oriented, slower aggro). What problems are people running into with those draw suites?

I suck at drawing land, so the main problem I have with 4 AV + 4 FoF is when keeping a 3-land hand, I miss my 4th and 5th land drops really consistently (yes, I run 24 land) and lose. Plus, although Ancestral Vision is ridiculous, I've found it to be too easily countered (either my opponent forces through a Counterbalance or the fact I don't want to have to tap lands on my turn). The card is broken good when it resolves so I've really wanted to add 2x in order to give me virtual Fact or Fiction 5 and 6. (As an aside: Why won't they print an instant speed, 5cmc, draw 3? We have Inspiration, instant, 4cmc, draw 2; Opportunity, instant, 6cmc, draw 4)

As for the Brainstorm, it's only good with a shuffle effect. Personally, I go with no fetchlands and Impulse. This is for many reasons I have stated previously, with the biggest being Stifle. Impulse may not improve my hand as much as Brainstorm, but in most games, the cards in my hand are not completely dead against my opponent anyway. Being able to dig 4 cards deep into a pile of relevant cards and grab the one I need has been really good to me (whether it be a land, or Shackles, or Back to Basics, or a counter)

Jace is really awesome too if you know you're going to be facing control decks. If not, it's less exciting than Think Twice would have been in that spot.

[Jason]

4 Fact or Fiction is too slow. You DON'T want 2 of these in your first 3 turns.

Yes I do.

[MTG-Fan]

Yes I do.

So you like 4 mana draw spells clogging up your hand in the early game when you're getting beat down by dudes?

[electrolyze]

Fact is not the only thing you have in hand the first 3 turns. You probably played some counters/shackles/propaganda/etc. to shut down the beatdown from some dudes.

I also dont mind having 2 facts in the beginning, if you survive it to turn4(which is likely with the other cards you play) youre gonna be loaded with Card Advantage.

[Jason]

So you like 4 mana draw spells clogging up your hand in the early game when you're getting beat down by dudes?

We are talking about the first three turns, right? Since when is 2 out of 7 "clogging up" my hand? How do they have so many guys in play? Do you refuse to counter anything until after you've played Fact or Fiction? If you didn't counter anything, where's your Powder Keg? Or your Vedalken Shackles? It seems highly likely out of the other cards in your hand, at least ONE of those should be applicable.

[Arsenal]

If I see 2 FoF, Keg, Prop, 3 Islands, I'll keep that and ride it to victory. One resolved FoF is tough for your opponent, 2 in a row is almost a guaranteed win. Even if you're down to 10 life by turn 4, 2 eot FoFs should be able to pull you out of any jam.

[MTG-Fan]

The key is surviving.

Can you say Turn 1 AEther Vial? FoF is way too slow to deal with some of the aggro decks in the format.

It's a great card to solidify your lead mid-game, of course, and that's why I would never run more than 3 in a MUC deck. You definitely want to see it mid-game after you've stabilized, in which case a FoF or two will push you over the top, but you don't want to run out of counterspells/removal early-game and be staring at 2 FoFs with only 4 lands in play and your opponent is casting/vialing even more stuff in.

My opinion, anyway.

[Arsenal]

Control has almost always had problems with lightning fast aggro decks. Running 2 less FoF in your deck will not change this, but it will severely weaken your aggro-control and control matchups.

I think 4 Keg, 4 Shackles, 4 Props + 8-12 countermagic spells should be enough to survive until turn 4 versus the large majority of decks. If the aggro player draws the nuts, then he draws the nuts. Again, running 2 less FoF isn't going to dramatically increase our chances of keeping up with T1 Vial/T1 Lackey, T2 Siege Gang + Piledriver, etc...

[Tea]

I have tested a bit. These are my conclusions:
MUC completely depends on shackles, Disk, and FoF. If you can’t seal the game with them, you are lost. These cards are very expensive. So you have to drop a land each turn, because you are absolutely not able to deal with threats otherwise. You have counters, but only 12-16 and sometimes you simply don’t draw them.

I suck at drawing, too. If I run 23 lands, fetchlands and brainstorm, I’m often forced to play my brainstorms to assure the landdrops.
24 island (no fetchlands) seems to work perfectly, however, I don’t have access to StP, thus I have to rely on shackles and Disk. This is risky.
Moreover, sometimes, my hand tends to be very clunky; and the only thing I can do is dropping a land (even with 16 counters)

I have some questions.
How many Morphling/CtS shall I run if I don’t run Brainstorm? 2 or 3?
How good is propaganda?
What can I do against krosan grp? Maybe Sower of Temptation as an alternative to shackles postboard?

[MTG-Fan]

I'd run 1 Morphling and 1 Call the Skybreaker, or 1 Rainbow Efreet and 1 Call the Skybreaker, personally.

Also, another question for the MUC gurus: Powder Keg or Nevinrryal's Disk? I used to run 4 Powder Keg main, and it is nice vs. alot of decks, but in many situations I wanted to sweep enchantments away, or hit creatures with higher CCs, or a variety of different CCs. I like Disk's "finality", i.e. it just wipes away EVERYTHING. Of course, the price you pay is that it costs so damn much and has to survive a turn before it can be activated.

[Arsenal]

Disk kills Propaganda, Back to Basics, and Morphling. That's reason enough for me to not run it. Depending on your build (stack vs. permanent based), you may want to run it; 6-8 less permanents generally will make it worth running.

[bowvamp]

If you aren't looking for a timely kind of thing, I guess you could look at Plague Boiler. Although you aren't playing GB, plague boiler costs two mana less than disk and it hits planeswalkers to boot. Obv. one of my pet cards (I'm acquiring them at an alarming rate these days)

[MTG-Fan]

Wow. I didn't even know that card existed. Very interesting.

The GB is a problem, but the card looks like it could be playable in something, if not necessarily MUC.

[Arsenal]

Why not run Oblivion Stone if destroying all non-land permanents is your goal? Although, Disk hits everything Stone does, except for Planewalkers, and 99% of the Planeswalkers you'll find is in an already favorable matchup: Landstill.

[Shawon]

TfK suck? I don't think so. That's why I said "depending on your build". As long as you run 2-3 Academy Ruins, and 12+ artifacts (Disks, Chalices, Tops, Relics, Shackles, Explosives, whatever), it's +2 CA for 3 mana at their EOT.

+2 CA? I'll assume that's a typo; it's +1 CA at best, otherwise, it's just card parity. And +1 CA is not. impressive. at. all. It's not. Also, you need artifacts to make Thirst for Knowledge into +1 CA, which is significant.

If you want to be technical, Thirst for Knowledge does not suck. However, it - doesn't - cut it because it doesn't do enough. Drawing three cards is great, but discarding two, or even one, doesn't really bring you that much ahead of your opponent.

All of that for three mana? Fuhgettaboutit.

[MTG-Fan]

+2 CA? I'll assume that's a typo; it's +1 CA at best, otherwise, it's just card parity. And +1 CA is not. impressive. at. all. It's not. Also, you need artifacts to make Thirst for Knowledge into +1 CA, which is significant.


There aren't too many options in Legacy for instants that give you more than +1 CA.

A spell that gives you +1 CA @ 3 mana, instant speed, and digs 3 cards deeper into your deck is not that bad, all things considered.

It's not like Legacy has anything as good as Ancestrall Recall. In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find any draw spell that gives you better than +1 CA at instant speed.



If you want to be technical, Thirst for Knowledge does not suck. However, it - doesn't - cut it because it doesn't do enough. Drawing three cards is great, but discarding two, or even one, doesn't really bring you that much ahead of your opponent.

All of that for three mana? Fuhgettaboutit.

It's really one of the few decent options MUC has. You can play Vision, but that has significant weaknesses of its own. You can play Intuition-AK, but that also has unique weaknesses. What else is there in terms of pure +1 or more CA draw spells?

[Shawon]

Think Twice also gives you +1 CA. It costs 1U, so you can at least depend on it to find a land. Sensei's Divining Top is better than Thirst for Knowledge.

Ancestral Vision or Think Twice should be the supplementary card drawers over Thirst for Knowledge. Beyond that, Jace Beleren.

[MTG-Fan]

Think Twice also gives you +1 CA. It costs 1U, so you can at least depend on it to find a land. Sensei's Divining Top is better than Thirst for Knowledge.

Ancestral Vision or Think Twice should be the supplementary card drawers over Thirst for Knowledge. Beyond that, Jace Beleren.

Think Twice only nets you +1CA after you've invested 5 mana into it. That's pretty bad.

Ancestral Vision and TfK are the only two choices, imho. Both have their strengths and weaknesses.

Jace is only playable if your metagame is low on the burn/aggro.

[Shawon]

It's not bad, because you don't have to spend all five mana at once. You can cast T2x and flashback at a convenient time. It's still better than Thirst for Knowledge because you need artifacts in your deck to make Thirst for Knowledge good. Not good. T2x doesn't require artifacts and you can cast it to find a land drop. Making land drops is critical in MUC.

There is no agree-to-disagree on whether Thirst for Knowledge makes the cut. It really doesn't. I stated my reasoning already. So far your reasoning is that there's nothing better. But I already stated a bunch of cards to run over Thirst for Knowledge, all of which aren't as limiting to deck design as Thirst for Knowledge. And don't cost 3 mana.

[MTG-Fan]

It's not bad, because you don't have to spend all five mana at once. You can cast T2x and flashback at a convenient time. It's still better than Thirst for Knowledge because you need artifacts in your deck to make Thirst for Knowledge good. Not good. T2x doesn't require artifacts and you can cast it to find a land drop. Making land drops is critical in MUC.


Just because you can spread 5 mana over the course of two turns doesn't make it remotely efficient. Think Twice is utter garbage.

Thirst isn't as limiting as you think. MUC already wants to run alot of artifacts for board control, filtering, graveyard hate, etc. All you need to do is grip a dead artifact in your hand, cast a Thirst, and you're golden. +1CA for 3 mana @ instant speed.




There is no agree-to-disagree on whether Thirst for Knowledge makes the cut. It really doesn't. I stated my reasoning already. So far your reasoning is that there's nothing better. But I already stated a bunch of cards to run over Thirst for Knowledge, all of which aren't as limiting to deck design as Thirst for Knowledge. And don't cost 3 mana.

Thirst for Knowledge and Vision are the only two auxillary draw spells worth discussing for MUC. I think any smart player would agree.

[GGoober]

For digging/CA, Think Twice is more like a cantrip than a draw/dig. I would honestly rather play Impulse to dig for an answer or dig into a draw (Fact).

MUC has the trouble of stabilizing in the early game. Landstill does better and has trouble as well. Once you hit 4 lands in MUC, you should own with Shackles and CA. I would seriously consider playing TfK. Why is TfK better than Think Twice? It draws the same amount of cards (if discarding an artifact) but more importantly, it digs faster for an answer. In heavy artifact builds (I call it MUCart), TfK is a strong draw spell. If you're having trouble hitting your 3nd land drop, run 24 lands or just pack 2-3 SDT or 4 Impulse.

[Tea]

I have to agree with Shawon. Normally, MUC runs ~8 artefacts (shackles, keg/disk). Too few for TfK, and on top of that you rarely want to drop a shackles.

[GGoober]

I know Tea. I was referring to a slightly heavier artifact build, which is my list ages of pages ago: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=328350&postcount=1005

It's not the best list anymore in today's meta, but the card draw power is better for pre-FoF stabilizing. Even if you can't discard, you can always throw Call the Skybreaker in the yard for recursion later.

[jthanatos]

Just because you can spread 5 mana over the course of two turns doesn't make it remotely efficient. Think Twice is utter garbage.

Thirst isn't as limiting as you think. MUC already wants to run alot of artifacts for board control, filtering, graveyard hate, etc. All you need to do is grip a dead artifact in your hand, cast a Thirst, and you're golden. +1CA for 3 mana @ instant speed.




Thirst for Knowledge and Vision are the only two auxillary draw spells worth discussing for MUC. I think any smart player would agree.

Most MUC lists run shackles and keg. Which of these is worth discarding to dig for land/generate card advantage? I realize your list is different and more artifact heavy, but as a whole, MUC is better served not discarding our key artifacts. Also, your assertion that "smart players agree" on the issue is obviously false just by reading this thread.

To avoid repeating my points on the available draw for MUC, here is my discussion from earlier in the thread.


The big bombs are Fact or Fiction and Ancestral Visions. I prefer Fact as it isn't a terrible late game top deck and digs deeper. Also, it combos well with the rest of my draw suite and with CtS. Visions is an awesome early game play, and has the advantage of keeping your opponent in the dark on your new resources. Once again, its a meta/personal preference call.

The early draw usually falls into one of 4 sets: Accumulated knowledge, brainstorm + fetches, impulse, and think twice. AK is an oldie but a goodie that gives some serious draw power late game, but is the slowest of the options. brainstorm + fetches digs deep, gives you filtering ability to send back dead cards, and the ability to splash cards to shore up weaknesses in MUC such as enchantment and creature removal. However, it also opens you up to stifles and nonbasic hate, things that MUC traditionally uses to its advantage by making them dead cards for our opponents. Also, brainstorm is less than ideal when you don't have a fetchland or shuffle online. Impulse digs the deepest, but never generates card advantage. Think twice is my personal choice, as its flashback ability usually prevents opponents from countering your cantrip, and it draws the most cards of the bunch, save Accumulated Knowledge. Even then, you have to cast all 4 AK's to draw more than Think Twice. The two biggests downsides I have found to Think Twice is how slowly it gets the draw engine rolling (7 mana for 3 cards and usually 3 turns, vs 4 mana for 3 cards in 2 turns with AK) and that, when combined with CtS, it makes graveyard hate a viable sideboard option for all those dead cards against us. In the end, once again, it's a personal call.

[MTG-Fan]

Most MUC lists run shackles and keg. Which of these is worth discarding to dig for land/generate card advantage? I realize your list is different and more artifact heavy, but as a whole, MUC is better served not discarding our key artifacts.


http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23083

This to me, is an ideal MUC list that can exploit TfK.

As long as you find some way to run 10+ artifacts and you also run Academy Ruins, TfK is a far superior draw spell to anything except Fact or Fiction or Ancestral Vision.

The fact remains that Think Twice is abysmal. The mana investment is too great for its reward. Hell, I'd rather run Whispers of the Muse over Think Twice.

No competitive MUC deck should ever be running Think Twice. As far as I'm concerned, MUC needs to run 3-4 Fact or Fiction, and then 4 filter effects of some kind, whether that is Brainstorm+Fetches, Ponder, or Impulse, and then 4 Auxiliary Draw - either Ancestral Vision, Thirst, or Jace.

[Shawon]

My bad, I guess during my argument against Thirst for Knowledge, I gave you the impression that I was advocating Think Twice in MUC. I'm not. I never ran THink Twice when I played MUC. Only 4 FoF and 4 AV, no other drawers. I still think it's better than Thirst for Knowledge, but arguing about it seems kinda pointless when I myself wouldn't run either card.

Your deck that you hyperlinked further shows that Thirst for Knowledge is a situational card in designing the deck. That deck runs 11 artifacts. Not every MUC variant does. Actually, if you replaced those 3 MD Relics with blue cards, then Thirst for Knowledge becomes pretty bad I think, because in games, you'll have to choose between discarding a Disk or Shackles to net +1 CA with Thirst for Knowledge. That's not always good, and Academy Ruins doesn't do much to remedy that.

Thirst for Knowledge, for its cost, just isn't worth it in MUC, unless you run 8+ artifacts. It's only worth it in artifact heavy decks like Painter or in decks that like the discard (Goblin Welder).

[jthanatos]

So, lets see, 12 draw/filter, 12 artifacts, 24 lands, 4 force of will, 4counterspell/ spell snare, 2 win cons. Those remaining 2 cards better be pretty darn good. I don't know why you keep coming back to the mana investment. It gives us parity a turn sooner than TfK, and card advantage on the same turn, without costing us a discard. Even Impulse is better in this regard, as at least we don't have to lose a hand full of good stuff forever when digging for lands. What else are you doing with your mana early game? Either you counter a threat, or you draw cards. Think Twice gets the ball rolling sooner on getting to our key cards. To dismiss Think Twice out of hand, and to compare it to Whispers shows a startling lack of card evaluation.

I will, however, openly admit that in an artifact heavy build of MUC, such as Deep Blue, Thirst is a damn good card. The biggest difference is that most of these artifact heavy lists play very differently from the standard MUC archtype, and, as such, need to be evaluated differently.

[MTG-Fan]

So, lets see, 12 draw/filter, 12 artifacts, 24 lands, 4 force of will, 4counterspell/ spell snare, 2 win cons. Those remaining 2 cards better be pretty darn good. I don't know why you keep coming back to the mana investment. It gives us parity a turn sooner than TfK, and card advantage on the same turn, without costing us a discard. Even Impulse is better in this regard, as at least we don't have to lose a hand full of good stuff forever when digging for lands. What else are you doing with your mana early game? Either you counter a threat, or you draw cards. Think Twice gets the ball rolling sooner on getting to our key cards. To dismiss Think Twice out of hand, and to compare it to Whispers shows a startling lack of card evaluation.


You dig 1 card deep with each casting of Think Twice. That's not much better than a cantrip.

One of the main reasons you even want to play additional draw spells is to dig for answers. Thirst will let you dig 3 cards deep at instant speed. This is often the difference between losing and winning if you desperately need a Spell Snare, or a Force of Will to counter a critical spell during your opponent's turn.



I will, however, openly admit that in an artifact heavy build of MUC, such as Deep Blue, Thirst is a damn good card. The biggest difference is that most of these artifact heavy lists play very differently from the standard MUC archtype, and, as such, need to be evaluated differently.


You're being too narrow minded and black/white here. There is no reason to run a deck composed almost entirely of artifacts to make use of Thirst. All you need is around 10-15 and your deck can run it adequately.

The most important thing to realize here, is that a 5 mana double cantrip is absolutely NOT worth running in any kind of control deck. So please stop bringing up the terrible Think Twice.

[bowvamp]

Actually, I don't get why you're arguing about Card Advantage per draw spell. There are just a couple that do anything good in terms of Card advantage <= 3 mana.

Jace Beleren: Possible draw 3.
Scrying Sheets: Dismissed as too much work to just draw lands, but it does draw alot of them over the course of the game.
Remora: WAY better in vintage, people don't play enough spells to make it worthwhile.
Predict:Given peoples high land count in MUC, I don't really get why this isn't played more.
Meditate:Could be useful.
Tfk: Debateable...

All of that was off a simple card search. My favorites have got to be predict, and a singleton jace.
Here's a list abusing them:
1 Academy Ruins
20 Island
1 Jace Beleren
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Rainbow Efreet
4 Force of Will
4 Rune Snag
1 Powder Keg
2 Disrupt
4 Counterspell
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Plague Boiler
4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Snare
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Back to Basics
3 Predict

Since you're running predict, brainstorm no longer needs fetches (if you ever did, why is deckcheck showing almost every t8 MUC deck having fetches?) becuase for 3 mana you get +1 Card advantage and kill a card you don't want to see off of brainstorm.

[Shawon]

You're being too narrow minded and black/white here. There is no reason to run a deck composed almost entirely of artifacts to make use of Thirst. All you need is around 10-15 and your deck can run it adequately.

I think that's what he and I are trying to say. Thirst for Knowledge requires too many MD artifacts to be worth it. 10-15 is a lot of artifacts. I can't even imagine a blue deck with 15 artifacts unless it was Vintage, which is why Thirst for Knowledge is banned there.

[MTG-Fan]

I think that's what he and I are trying to say. Thirst for Knowledge requires too many MD artifacts to be worth it. 10-15 is a lot of artifacts. I can't even imagine a blue deck with 15 artifacts unless it was Vintage, which is why Thirst for Knowledge is banned there.

Thirst is banned in Vintage because it's one of the best draw spells in the game.

[Jason]

Thirst is banned in Vintage because it's one of the best draw spells in the game.

It is one of the best draw spells in vintage because decks can abuse it by running upwards of 15 artifacts (you know...the same 15 in every deck) and by running broken cards like Yawgmoth's Will to use whatever may have been discarded. Not to mention, 3 cards deep in a pile of broken cards is always a good thing.

[MMogg]

Thirst is banned in Vintage because it's one of the best draw spells in the game.

Not to be picky, but it's restricted, not banned.

[Jak]

Thirst is banned in Vintage because it's one of the best draw spells in the game.

Different formats...

[jthanatos]

Thirst is banned in Vintage because it's one of the best draw spells in the game.

Behold, the deadliness of Lotus Petal and Mystical Tutor. Truly powerful cards that every MUC player should run. When your deck is a pile of brokeness, any draw is good. When half the brokeness is artifacts and loaded with recursion, Thirst is off the charts. When you only have 8ish slots for artifacts and maybe 2 sources of recursion, it is not. Also, discarding cards, any cards, gives some pretty good hand information to our opponents. This is bad, as MUC always wants to project that aura of having a hand consisting of 7 force of will, 7 fact or fiction, 7 back to basics, and 7 shackles at all times. I just don't think you are giving the discard aspect of this card enough weight in your thinking, as it can be very signifigant.

[Antonius]

I was trying to throw together a Mono-Blue Countertop/Dreadstill deck and came upon a real gem from M10 drafts...

has anyone considered Ice Cage as removal? I know, at first glance, it seems like total jank, but if you think about it, most decks only run spells that would not only get rid of Ice Cage, but of the creature that's caged too. I mean, what's zoo going to do if you cage their watchwolf or kird ape? Bolt it? Sword/Path it?
The only thing I can think of that gets rid of it without otherwise costing your opponent a card that could be used as burn to your face is pump--not a lot of decks run those. As for equipment...if a jitte resolves and gets active on you, you're probably losing that game anyway.

Furthermore, stifle/trickbind (not staples of MUC, I know) make it stick even longer. It seems like solid removal that buys enough time for Disk or whatever wipes the board later on...

[MMogg]

I was trying to throw together a Mono-Blue Countertop/Dreadstill deck and came upon a real gem from M10 drafts...

has anyone considered Ice Cage as removal? I know, at first glance, it seems like total jank, but if you think about it, most decks only run spells that would not only get rid of Ice Cage, but of the creature that's caged too. I mean, what's zoo going to do if you cage their watchwolf or kird ape? Bolt it? Sword/Path it?
The only thing I can think of that gets rid of it without otherwise costing your opponent a card that could be used as burn to your face is pump--not a lot of decks run those. As for equipment...if a jitte resolves and gets active on you, you're probably losing that game anyway.

Furthermore, stifle/trickbind (not staples of MUC, I know) make it stick even longer. It seems like solid removal that buys enough time for Disk or whatever wipes the board later on...

Meh, it seems Ok at best. Best case scenario is a one-for-one trade, which isn't the greatest for control. Ideally control can deal with 2-3 creatures/permanents for one card. Ideally. Now, that is best case, but worst case scenario is after you stifle the ability, costing you another card, the player may still be able to do something about it. You never know which player has "hidden tech" in his deck, like Lavamancer or Scroll. :cry:

I remember once way back in the day when Masques was in Standard, I played against a rebel deck that used Cho-Manno's Blessing (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=19551), which caught me off guard, suckered in my only removal spell, and ended up costing me the game. Lesson learned: you never know what someone will put in their deck.

The fact that Ice Cage is not permanent removal and/or doesn't deal with multiple threats at once makes me weary to rely on it.

[Tea]

One of the main reasons you even want to play additional draw spells is to dig for answers. Thirst will let you dig 3 cards deep at instant speed. This is often the difference between losing and winning if you desperately need a Spell Snare, or a Force of Will to counter a critical spell during your opponent's turn.
Actually, MUC doesn’t have to dig for an answer. The only answers MUC has are those high-CC spells. Running four of them each, you should find them until round 4.

Think Twice isn’t as bad as it may look like at first glance. Compared to Impulse you exchange a deep look into your library for the flashback.

@ bowvamp
Predict depends on brainstorm. As long as you don’t have a brainstorm in your hand, predict is a dead card. That being said predict rarely improves your early game.

[bowvamp]

Haha yes! Someone responds! I was getting worried there for a moment.

Predict doesn't entirely depend on brainstorm so long as you don't want to dig for lands, you can just name island.

[Tea]

Well, you’re right; it’s not as dead as I have thought it is. But I doubt it’s better than Think twice. If your prediction is false, it’s definitely worse. If you draw two cards through it, you draw the same amount of cards as you would have drawn through Think Twice, but at a lower cost.
At the moment, I think every card that draws two cards (= +1CA) is inferior to Think Twice, because Think Twice can be cast on turn two, and the effect is the same.

[Cyrus]

I saw a MUC version with faeries some time ago, and then I tried to build something similar to that:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
23 [IA] Island (2)

// Creatures
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
2 [UL] Cloud of Faeries
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation

// Spells
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [TSP] Ancestral Vision
4 [R] Counterspell
3 [9E] Mana Leak
2 [NE] Daze
2 [GP] Repeal
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [UD] Powder Keg
3 [US] Back to Basics

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [8E] Hibernation
SB: 3 [MM] Energy Flux

I don't have any FoWs, so this is the list I have so far. What else could be improved?

[MMogg]

// Creatures
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
2 [UL] Cloud of Faeries
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation


:eek: Too many creatures to be considered MUC, in my opinion, and they're the wrong type of creature (tiny). :tongue:

Why not just make a Faerie Stompy deck?

[Silent Requiem]

:eek: Too many creatures to be considered MUC, in my opinion, and they're the wrong type of creature (tiny). :tongue:

Why not just make a Faerie Stompy deck?

I agree, this deck is just... not MUC. The small creatures are just wrong for MUC.

In the early turns MUC is focusing on board control, and it cannot afford to tie up mana dropping (weak) threats.

In the late game these small creatures cannot compete with those enemy threats that got through your counter wall.

Moreover, they won't seal the game fast enough (ie, before you have to deploy a sweeper that destroys your own creatures as well as his).

Finally, those extra nine creatures are nine fewer draw/counters.

I'm not saying that blue creature decks can't work, just that it has to play very differently than MUC.

-Silent Requiem

[Cyrus]

These creatures are useful on their own (except for cloud of faeries, but it is awesome coupled with Spellstutter Sprite and it's free). They are counters, control magics and a decent clock/blocker with peek. Some builds play Vendilion Clique and Sower, so this is just one step closer to the edge. But you guys are right, it doesn't really feel like control, maybe more like a midrange deck. Anyways, these creatures have proved to be really decent in my recent testing against random decks, and that's probably what's going to be my meta. Those creatures can give you a fighting chance in the early game. And the sweepers usually are set @ 1, and that doesn't hurt my creatures. Even if set @ two, the only 2 faeries at that cc range are cloud + spellstutter, and spellstutter is there mainly for the counter effect. All creatures (except for Sower) have flash or cost 0 mana (if cloud of faeries is countered you are basically screwed. I may cut it soon) so you can leave mana open for counters.

[MTG-Fan]

The problem with running Faeries is that it makes all of your opponent's creature removal (Lightning Bolt, Fire//Ice, Swords to Plowshares, Engineered Plague, opposing Shackles, Wrath of God, etc etc) relevant.

One of the nice things about playing MUC is being a.) immune to wasteland/blood moon and b.) immune to creature removal


Faeries is a powerful deck in Extended, and can do reasonably well in Legacy, but Engineered Plague and generally more powerful anti-creature options prevent it from really being tier1 in this format, or even a better option than traditional MUC.

[Cyrus]

Ok, so what about...

Fowless MUC

// Lands
23 [ALA] Island (1)

// Creatures
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren
1 [US] Morphling

// Spells
4 [TSP] Ancestral Vision
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [VI] Impulse
2 [NE] Daze
3 [9E] Mana Leak
3 [UD] Powder Keg
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [R] Counterspell
1 [TE] Capsize
3 [US] Back to Basics
4 [TE] Propaganda
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
1 [EVE] Call the Skybreaker

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [OD] Divert
SB: 4 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [MM] Energy Flux

[MTG-Fan]

You absolutely need 4 Force of Will to be competitive in this format with MUC.

[UberNewHacks]

What do you guys think of running one or two Dazes? Even if you only play a single Daze, if your opponent knows that they are in your deck he has to hesitate and worry about his spell not resolving even when you tap out. I think that as a 2-of it should not really affect your land drops, but a singleton could only have a positive effect.
What do you guys think of Cryptic Command?

[MTG-Fan]

Cryptic Command and Daze should be addressed in the front page of this thread, because they seem to come up rather often among Standard players and the like.

- Daze is only decent in a deck with an early pressure game and a fast clock. In MUC, you really can't afford to nullify any of your land drops, because MUC is a very mana-hungry deck that only runs basics and no acceleration of any kind. Also, Daze is not that good unless you can capitalize with a fast clock, which MUC does not have, unlike Tempo Thresh or Merfolk. Your idea for using a single Daze to keep his opponent on his toes is a cute trick, but your opponents will quickly learn what you are up to eventually, and the mind game will lose most of its effectiveness.

- Cryptic Command is a versatile counterspell, but in Legacy it is simply too expensive to see play. For 4 mana, in Legacy, you should be doing stuff like casting Fact or Fiction and generating tons of card advantage, or wiping the board with Disk. Simply fogging for one turn, or countering a spell and cantripping, is not acceptable for 4 mana in this format, as it is in slower formats like Standard.

[UberNewHacks]

Cryptic Command and Daze should be addressed in the front page of this thread, because they seem to come up rather often among Standard players and the like.

- Daze is only decent in a deck with an early pressure game and a fast clock. In MUC, you really can't afford to nullify any of your land drops, because MUC is a very mana-hungry deck that only runs basics and no acceleration of any kind. Also, Daze is not that good unless you can capitalize with a fast clock, which MUC does not have, unlike Tempo Thresh or Merfolk. Your idea for using a single Daze to keep his opponent on his toes is a cute trick, but your opponents will quickly learn what you are up to eventually, and the mind game will lose most of its effectiveness.

- Cryptic Command is a versatile counterspell, but in Legacy it is simply too expensive to see play. For 4 mana, in Legacy, you should be doing stuff like casting Fact or Fiction and generating tons of card advantage, or wiping the board with Disk. Simply fogging for one turn, or countering a spell and cantripping, is not acceptable for 4 mana in this format, as it is in slower formats like Standard.
Ok. Well I don't play Legacy often IRL so I might just try the singleton daze. What about Ophidian?

[Jason]

- Cryptic Command is a versatile counterspell, but in Legacy it is simply too expensive to see play. For 4 mana, in Legacy, you should be doing stuff like casting Fact or Fiction and generating tons of card advantage, or wiping the board with Disk. Simply fogging for one turn, or countering a spell and cantripping, is not acceptable for 4 mana in this format, as it is in slower formats like Standard.

Using Cryptic Command as Dismiss or Fog is not why the card is in my deck. It is extremely versatile and can do those things (which aren't always terrible) but most importantly it can bounce annoying enchantments that have been forced through like Humility or Counterbalance along with countering another annoying spell or at worst, drawing me a card. If you run Nevinyrral's Disk, I can see this being less relevant as you have an out for enchantments, but with Powder Keg alone, I prefer to at least have some sort of answer for annoyances. I know I'm not the only person who has found 1x Cryptic Command a good card. It does suck if it's in your opening hand, yes. And I agree it isn't as game-breaking as Fact or Fiction, but it can be very useful for helping to stabilize mid-late game if you are having a rough time. I suggest testing the deck heavily both with and without the card to see if it's worth 1 or maybe 2 slots in your deck (I wouldn't play more than 2 because it is expensive and doesn't say "win the game" like Fact or Fiction)


Ok. Well I don't play Legacy often IRL so I might just try the singleton daze. What about Ophidian?

Daze is terrible in MUC as well because we want to hit land drops. I would dare say Force Spike is better (and I really dislike Force Spike). Ophidian is also terrible in legacy because Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolt and Snuff Out are running around everywhere. In vintage, it's better because it can come down faster and people don't run Swords. Legacy, the card is going to killed faster than Bob does. Jace is a better option than Ophidian.

[UberNewHacks]

Using Cryptic Command as Dismiss or Fog is not why the card is in my deck. It is extremely versatile and can do those things (which aren't always terrible) but most importantly it can bounce annoying enchantments that have been forced through like Humility or Counterbalance along with countering another annoying spell or at worst, drawing me a card. If you run Nevinyrral's Disk, I can see this being less relevant as you have an out for enchantments, but with Powder Keg alone, I prefer to at least have some sort of answer for annoyances. I know I'm not the only person who has found 1x Cryptic Command a good card. It does suck if it's in your opening hand, yes. And I agree it isn't as game-breaking as Fact or Fiction, but it can be very useful for helping to stabilize mid-late game if you are having a rough time. I suggest testing the deck heavily both with and without the card to see if it's worth 1 or maybe 2 slots in your deck (I wouldn't play more than 2 because it is expensive and doesn't say "win the game" like Fact or Fiction)



Daze is terrible in MUC as well because we want to hit land drops. I would dare say Force Spike is better (and I really dislike Force Spike). Ophidian is also terrible in legacy because Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolt and Snuff Out are running around everywhere. In vintage, it's better because it can come down faster and people don't run Swords. Legacy, the card is going to killed faster than Bob does. Jace is a better option than Ophidian.
Mkay. Thanks for quick logical explanations guys. If you run Cryptics I can justify Ebaying some for my Standard deck I guess if I might use them for Legacy.

[impulsecontrol]

I've read through the past few pages before realizing this thread is 60+ pages. Hopefully you guys are understanding when I ask the question rather then scour through every page but I have two questions about the deck.

1) With many decks running 23 islands, why not make it say 20 snow covered islands and 3 scrying sheets as a draw engine? Tried it, always helps me hit my land drops. I know somebody had to have done this at some point but I want to know why.

2) If the scrying sheets is a bad idea, why does this deck not run some fetchlands to help with brainstorm/top?

EDIT: just realized brainstorm is not in the deck, so ignore that part, just use to vintage where brainstorm is in every blue deck. sorry

Thanks.

[MTG-Fan]

I've read through the past few pages before realizing this thread is 60+ pages. Hopefully you guys are understanding when I ask the question rather then scour through every page but I have two questions about the deck.

1) With many decks running 23 islands, why not make it say 20 snow covered islands and 3 scrying sheets as a draw engine? Tried it, always helps me hit my land drops. I know somebody had to have done this at some point but I want to know why.

2) If the scrying sheets is a bad idea, why does this deck not run some fetchlands to help with brainstorm/top?

EDIT: just realized brainstorm is not in the deck, so ignore that part, just use to vintage where brainstorm is in every blue deck. sorry

Thanks.

I've tried the Sheets + Top draw engine. It's not terrible; it really gets going in the mid-game and enables you to draw 2-3 cards at a time.

The problems are a.) it's pretty slow, and only useful mid-game during drawn-out stalemates and b.) because you run mostly basic lands, the few scrying sheets will be wasteland magnets and c.) it tempts you into running CounterTop, because you are already running Top, and if you go down that route, you're weakening the core of MUC and turning it more into a Tempo Thresh-type deck.

[Tea]

Soon I will attend a small local tourney and I need your advice.
That’s what I intend to play:

25 Island
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell snare
4 Force spike
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Think Twice
4 Vedalken shackles
4 Nevinyrral’s Disk
3 Call the Skybreaker

SB: 4 back to basics
SB: 4 Propaganda
SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 blue elemental blast

I don’t want to change the main-deck - maybe it’s not the best MUC, but it has been working great for me - however, concerning the SB I have some questions:
How shall I board?
Is it advisable boarding out card-draw like Think Twice in the aggro matchup? Everything may be a threat, so I won’t have a possibility to cast it. As I’m running 25 Island, I don’t think I will be mana-screwed, even without a cantrip.
I have included Propaganda in my SB. But I wonder if Threads of disloyalty may be a better choice? – against Goblins and Zoo.
I don’t know how the metagame will be; though everything can be expected.

[Manhattan]

Soon I will attend a small local tourney and I need your advice.
That’s what I intend to play:

25 Island
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell snare
4 Force spike
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Think Twice
4 Vedalken shackles
4 Nevinyrral’s Disk
3 Call the Skybreaker

SB: 4 back to basics
SB: 4 Propaganda
SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 blue elemental blast


I'd prefer Ancestral Visions or Accumulated Knowledge over Think Twice and maybe some number of Facts. Call the Skybreaker is a Sorcery, you realize that? And you play 3 Copys of a retraceable threat that probably won't be cast before turn 10? I'd rather mill my opponent with Jace than using this card.

[Jason]

Soon I will attend a small local tourney and I need your advice.
That’s what I intend to play:

25 Island
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell snare
4 Force spike
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Think Twice
4 Vedalken shackles
4 Nevinyrral’s Disk
3 Call the Skybreaker

SB: 4 back to basics
SB: 4 Propaganda
SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 blue elemental blast

I don’t want to change the main-deck - maybe it’s not the best MUC, but it has been working great for me - however, concerning the SB I have some questions:
How shall I board?
Is it advisable boarding out card-draw like Think Twice in the aggro matchup? Everything may be a threat, so I won’t have a possibility to cast it. As I’m running 25 Island, I don’t think I will be mana-screwed, even without a cantrip.
I have included Propaganda in my SB. But I wonder if Threads of disloyalty may be a better choice? – against Goblins and Zoo.
I don’t know how the metagame will be; though everything can be expected.

Threads of Disloyalty isn't all that great against goblins. It isn't too bad against zoo, however. If you decide to put Threads of Disloyalty in, I would cut to 3x of each card.

With how your sideboard looks, here is how I would board against zoo:
If I lost game 1 (on the play game 2):
I would bring in 2x Blue Elemental Blast, 4x Propaganda and 2x Back to Basics cutting 2x Call the Skybreaker, 4x Think Twice, 1x Counterspell, 1x Nevinyrral's Disk

If I won game 1 (on the draw game 2):
I would bring in 3x Blue Elemental Blast, 4x Propaganda and 2x Back to Basics cutting 2x Call the Skybreaker, 4x Force Spike, 2x Counterspell, 1x Nevinyrral's Disk

Against goblins, the boarding would be similar except Back to Basics isn't as good against goblins and you would need to put all the BEB in regardless. I have found Force Spike to be good only when you are on the play in these match-ups.

[Tea]

I don't want to change the main-board; it's better than you might think.
Any suggestions how to board?

@ Jason
thank you for the response

[MTG-Fan]

You definitely don't want to rely 100% on Call the Skybreaker as they can simply Extirpate it. I run 1 CtS and 1 Morphling as win conditions in my MUC deck.

[MMogg]

I really dislike Call of the Skybreaker: he's just big dumb blue fat. I think he's actually worse than Mahamoti Djinn. CotS can be REBed (and BEBed) and red hate is generally more common than blue hate. He costs one more mana and do you really think you'll need to recast him from the grave? Hopefully MUC has the game under control by the time the win condition enters the battlefield.

Sure Morphling is a little worse now damage no longer uses the stack, but his ability to protect himself from spot removal is key in a format with so many splashed Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile. He is a better choice than CotS.

Edit: Ok, this is going to sound really scrubby, but what about testing out the suspend creatures (Deap-Sea Kraken, Errant Ephemeron, or even Infiltrator il-Kor). Their suspend costs are quite low and would also give time to lock down the game. When it is finally cast, your mana is open and it has haste. Hmm, I think I'm going to test this out. hehehe Could fall flat on my face, but worth a try.