[Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

[jthanatos]

I really dislike Call of the Skybreaker: he's just big dumb blue fat. I think he's actually worse than Mahamoti Djinn. CotS can be REBed and red hate is generally more common than blue hate. He costs one more mana and do you really think you'll need to recast him from the grave? Hopefully MUC has the game under control by the time the win condition enters the battlefield.

Sure Morphling is a little worse now damage no longer uses the stack, but his ability to protect himself from spot removal is key in a format with so many splashed Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile. He is a better choice than CotS.

Edit: Ok, this is going to sound really scrubby, but what about testing out the suspend creatures (Deap-Sea Kraken, Errant Ephemeron, or even Infiltrator il-Kor). Their suspend costs are quite low and would also give time to lock down the game. When it is finally cast, your mana is open and it has haste. Hmm, I think I'm going to test this out. hehehe Could fall flat on my face, but worth a try.

Call the Skybreaker comes back. Why do people not find this good? You run 24 lands, you only need 10 or so in play before you are going to have more mana than spells. 15 castings of a 5/5 flier seems good. Djinn is in no way better (other than maybe blocking a tombstalker and not having to recast it). The whole idea is not having to use spells to protect your dude from trivial stuff like wrath, swords, elemental blasts and the like. Use spells and mana to keep your opponent from winning. Also, what happens if your opponent successfully counters your Morphling?

That said, I run 1 CtS for inevitability, 1 Rainbow Efreet for the evasion of spells (I find the ability to dodge all non split second removal an acceptable trade-off for for adding 3 turns to my clock), and 2 sower of temptation to combo with the rest of my control suite and give me a beat face option against other control.

I do agree that running only one kill card is very dangerous, but running three copies seems ok, as extirpate isn't the most common card. I would still suggest a 2/1 split for something else just to remove the remote loss chance with minimal change to the deck itself.

[MMogg]

Call the Skybreaker comes back. Why do people not find this good?

I thought I just mentioned some reasons, but I'll add a few more: because he costs seven to cast; he's both blue and red, making him vulnerable to blue and red hate; he's a token, so Deed or Engineered Explosives can take care of him quite easily, not to mention ANY bounce spell kills him; he's smotherable, Swordsable, Suff Outable, etc.; his ability to act like a Call of the Herd on roids is largely unnecessary as you ought to have the game under control by then. That's all I can think of for now.



Djinn is in no way better (other than maybe blocking a tombstalker and not having to recast it). The whole idea is not having to use spells to protect your dude from trivial stuff like wrath, swords, elemental blasts and the like. Use spells and mana to keep your opponent from winning. Also, what happens if your opponent successfully counters your Morphling?

I wasn't seriously proposing running Djinn. I was merely highlighting that even unplayable Djinn is better than CtS. As for countering Morphling: if you are out-countered playing MUC then you deserve to lose. :wink: Seriously though, you can use the counter argument for nearly everything. Sticking to Morphling will save you more cards than CtS. Morhling can protect himself from all spot removal.

[MTG-Fan]

Call the Skybreaker would be just fantastic if it only was an instant, and it cost say, 1 mana less:

Call the Skybreaker 3UUU
Instant

Put a 5/5 Elemental token with flying into play.
Retrace


That having been said, we have to make do with what they print for us, so it's probably the best recurring win condition MUC has. The key here is the word "recurring". Yeah, 7 mana Mahamoti Djinn really sucks, but it provides inevitability because you will keep retracing it until they eventually run out of removal.

And of course, you should only run this as a 1-of or 2-of alongside Morphling and Shackles, imo.

[jthanatos]

What do you mean "under control". This is legacy. Most decks are made of bombs, counters, and card draw. I run a very counter heavy MUC build, and I still only have 14-15 pieces of counter magic while most thresh builds run ate least 8 and sometimes 12+. If I have to get into a counter war everytime I cast a spell, especially late game when thresh will just keep dropping threats to my empty board, it will break any control I have. Yes, back to basics and shackles ruin their day, but with Krosan Grip running wild they aren't nearly as sure as they used to be. While I agree, recasting is less exciting than just dodging that swords, CtS is just plain inevitable. He will kill your opponent eventually if they can't kill you first. Also, complaining about it costing 7? Really? Morphling essentially costs 6 if you want to have mana open to use its ability, and probably costs more as your opponents have had nothing to aim their vast array of spot removal at all game... and if he dies... well, he's gone, nice knowing him.

[Jason]

I was playtesting against BG Suicide last night. It was late-game; I had exhausted all my counters on annoyances like Bob and Hymn and Tarmogoyf and one Maelstrom Pulse on Shackles. He ended up finding and successfully casting three more Maelstrom Pulse on all three Shackles. My opponent top-decked a Tombstalker. The turn after, he played another Tombstalker. Were it not for Call the Skybreaker in my graveyard from a Fact or Fiction earlier, I would have lost that game. If I only had 2x Morphling as my win condition, I would not have won that game; same goes for Rainbow Efreet. Neither can kill a Tombstalker AND live to tell the tale. Call the Skybreaker can - the token may die but the card lives on to beat face.

[MMogg]

What do you mean "under control". This is legacy. Most decks are made of bombs, counters, and card draw. I run a very counter heavy MUC build, and I still only have 14-15 pieces of counter magic while most thresh builds run ate least 8 and sometimes 12+. If I have to get into a counter war everytime I cast a spell, especially late game when thresh will just keep dropping threats to my empty board, it will break any control I have. Yes, back to basics and shackles ruin their day, but with Krosan Grip running wild they aren't nearly as sure as they used to be. While I agree, recasting is less exciting than just dodging that swords, CtS is just plain inevitable. He will kill your opponent eventually if they can't kill you first. Also, complaining about it costing 7? Really? Morphling essentially costs 6 if you want to have mana open to use its ability, and probably costs more as your opponents have had nothing to aim their vast array of spot removal at all game... and if he dies... well, he's gone, nice knowing him.

So . . . not under control? So you're not playing Mono Blue Control, you're playing Mono Blue Bea-You-Down-Before-You-Kill-Me. So, if you haven't board control, what makes you think a 5/5 flier will certainly win you the game? You swing for 5 and perhaps they swing for 7, only their creatures are much cheaper.

The difference between 5 and 7 is quite big. Casting a turn seven Morphling with counter backup gives you more options (Force of Will, Mana Leak/Counterspell, Force Spike, etc.) or repel a bolt or Stp with Morphling's ability and keep your counter magic for other threats.

I just wonder how much of the recursion is "win more" and how much is really game saving. :confused:

[MMogg]

I was playtesting against BG Suicide last night. It was late-game; I had exhausted all my counters on annoyances like Bob and Hymn and Tarmogoyf and one Maelstrom Pulse on Shackles. He ended up finding and successfully casting three more Maelstrom Pulse on all three Shackles. My opponent top-decked a Tombstalker. The turn after, he played another Tombstalker. Were it not for Call the Skybreaker in my graveyard from a Fact or Fiction earlier, I would have lost that game. If I only had 2x Morphling as my win condition, I would not have won that game; same goes for Rainbow Efreet. Neither can kill a Tombstalker AND live to tell the tale. Call the Skybreaker can - the token may die but the card lives on to beat face.

How often does/did that happen? I'm not being a sarcastic dick, I just wonder how worth it it is for that one scenario.

[jthanatos]

I just wonder how much of the recursion is "win more" and how much is really game saving. :confused:

Here's the thing, MUC is all about getting as much utility as possible from each card in its deck. Unlike Morphling, Efreet, and all other useful finisher MUC has, Call doesn't need you to be in control for it to be effective. Being able to say "5/5 flier, go" is good. Even more so when it is repeatable. Also, why am I swinging in when they swing for 7, instead of just blocking and dropping another 5/5.

Believe me, it was hard for me to let Superman(morphling) leave my deck, but all my playtesting and much of the discussion in this thread shows that some split of Call + either Morphling or Efreet gives this deck what it needs. If you find Call not to work for you, fine, but give it a chance. Play with it, watch your elementals eat face without you worrying about them at all.

[Tea]

If I fear Extirpate, I would run 2 CtS, 1 Efreet.
Through CtS you can play a Tombstalber every turn from turn 7 on – especially if you run 3 of them.

I think Morphling is worth only in a build running 4 back to basics, since Morphling can make use of the time won by BtB more effectively than CtS.

[Jason]

How often does/did that happen? I'm not being a sarcastic dick, I just wonder how worth it it is for that one scenario.

I know Landstill doesn't like playing Dragon-go with MUC. By the time late-game hits, you're going to have to keep a lot of counter magic in your hand in order to save Morphling from the Wrath of God onslaught. They only have so many Wraths (2 or 3, depending) meaning Call the Skybreaker will get there eventually, while Morphling just sits around hanging out in the yard.

And as far as how often back to back Tombstalker happens against a control deck that isn't running white (re: RGU threshold or MUC): if one Tombstalker is allowed to hit play, chances are a second one is coming. If Shackles isn't online (thanks to K Grip or something else dumb), Call the Skybreaker can actually allow us to win through this.

I have also found Call the Skybreaker great against Armageddon Stax, Quinn the Eskimo AKA Jack Elgin's Pile of Amazingness (or The Mighty Quinn...whichever), Solidarity (surprising. right?), and Canadian Threshold. Morphling would have been just as good against Solidarity and Tempo Thresh; however, I find Superman to be terrible against Landstill and MWC running Wrath of God effects and it is only ok against any decks that have the ability to resolve a Tombstalker. Morphling is also not that exciting against Rock decks because it makes Pernicious Deed even more relevant than Call the Skybreaker does (hint: CtS tokens keep coming back)

[Tea]

What do you think of Echoing truth as a 4 or 3 of in place of the 5th-8th drawspell?
At first glance this may sound silly, but I have found out that it’s very easy to compensate the card-disadvantage created by force spike and Echoing truth through cards like FoF and Call the Skybreaker. My idea is to play 3 CtS along with another win-condition. Running 3 CtS assures that one of them is in your hand on turn seven. With 16 counters and 4 bounce I wonder if it is possible to cut all of the boardsweepers? So I could add Back to basics and Morphling in order to go aggro more easily.

[Doks]

This sounds like "Turbo Morphling" in the past: speeding up a T3 Morphling via Monolith and U open, then counter everything for 4 turns and win.

Pretty straight and cool, but I think not doable without acceleration like Monolith in Legacy. There's going to happen too much until you can power out a fast Morphling.

[P.S.]

What's the reasoning for not running Intuition for Accumulated Knowledge anymore?

[Manhattan]

What's the reasoning for not running Intuition for Accumulated Knowledge anymore?

Hm, maybe because if that's your only target it's 5 mana for draw-three.

[P.S.]

You can Intuition EOT of Turn 3. Then AK for 3 cards EOT turn four. That's p. much the same as just casting FoF EOT on turn 4. No? In addition to running FoF it's an option still, I think.

Plus, if you're running 4x AK odds are you'll draw one early. Which means you can Intuition for AK's for 3 cards then cast the other AK for four cards.

[Arsenal]

I suppose if you're running 3 CtS, Intuition wouldn't be too bad of an addition. You'd have two Intuition targets, CtS & AK, making it slightly worth it? I don't know, seems janky to me.

[jthanatos]

You can Intuition EOT of Turn 3. Then AK for 3 cards EOT turn four. That's p. much the same as just casting FoF EOT on turn 4. No? In addition to running FoF it's an option still, I think.

Plus, if you're running 4x AK odds are you'll draw one early. Which means you can Intuition for AK's for 3 cards then cast the other AK for four cards.

To quote myself on card draw again:


The big bombs are Fact or Fiction and Ancestral Visions. I prefer Fact as it isn't a terrible late game top deck and digs deeper. Also, it combos well with the rest of my draw suite and with CtS. Visions is an awesome early game play, and has the advantage of keeping your opponent in the dark on your new resources. Once again, its a meta/personal preference call.

The early draw usually falls into one of 4 sets: Accumulated knowledge, brainstorm + fetches, impulse, and think twice. AK is an oldie but a goodie that gives some serious draw power late game, but is the slowest of the options. brainstorm + fetches digs deep, gives you filtering ability to send back dead cards, and the ability to splash cards to shore up weaknesses in MUC such as enchantment and creature removal. However, it also opens you up to stifles and nonbasic hate, things that MUC traditionally uses to its advantage by making them dead cards for our opponents. Also, brainstorm is less than ideal when you don't have a fetchland or shuffle online. Impulse digs the deepest, but never generates card advantage. Think twice is my personal choice, as its flashback ability usually prevents opponents from countering your cantrip, and it draws the most cards of the bunch, save Accumulated Knowledge. Even then, you have to cast all 4 AK's to draw more than Think Twice. The two biggests downsides I have found to Think Twice is how slowly it gets the draw engine rolling (7 mana for 3 cards and usually 3 turns, vs 4 mana for 3 cards in 2 turns with AK) and that, when combined with CtS, it makes graveyard hate a viable sideboard option for all those dead cards against us. In the end, once again, it's a personal call.



The biggest problem with Intuition in my mind is how it functions as nothing but a setup card. While drawing 3-4 cards on turn 4 is pretty darn awesome, MUC is not set up to take full advantage of anything else Intuition can do in other decks. We can grab sweepers or control pieces with it, but at the cost of losing 2 others. It just seems like the slot taken by Intuition would be better served as more control pieces or more countermagic.

On the echoing truth front, my biggest worry of not having draw outside of FoF is going to make the early game very rough. We can no longer smooth through bad topdecks. On the flip side, a big pile of countermagic with a good kill we can rush to seems interesting. Maybe try Kira to be able to keep your opponent shut out with bounce, counters and B2B until it is too late?

[Eldariel]

1 Call the Skybreaker would be enough 'cause you want it in your grave anyways (you can wish for Call+2 Lands for the same effect as 3 Calls). That said, considering Call is a 7-mana 5/5, I don't see why you'd ever play it in this deck. MUC finishers are supposed to also be able to stem the bleeding and be the last resort "stops that army"-card and 7 mana is really too late for such.

Morphling would've worked pre-M10, but losing his ability to kill...well, anything kinda made him worse so the only sensible finisher remaining seems to be Meloku and even that's pretty mediocre (though chumping the giants in the format indefinitely could at least vindicate his existence). I mean, if you need to just kill and are late enough to play Call the Skybreaker, you can make enough illusions to trivialize spot removal and counter mass removal anyways.


But really, if you play over 1 Call the Skybreaker, you're doing something wrong. It's strictly there to guarantee inevitability and is going to be horrible in every game where you haven't already won. In my humble opinion, the card shouldn't be 100000 feet from the deck (it isn't even good enough for Standard...), but that's just my opinion.

To people who have played with CtS beyond slight testing: In what actual game scenarios in real games have you won the game with Call the Skybreaker when a Morphling/Meloku wouldn't suffice? Have you ever been in a position you won thanks to CtS but couldn't win with the alternatives? On the other hand, have you ever had CtS grin back at you as you cry and thrash at 5 mana needing an answer to that Mongoose NOW? That's been pretty much my experience with the card.

[4eak]

I don't feel like quoting everything that has already been said about this topic.

A discussion of IBA's MUC build which included CtS brought up a good bit of discussion. Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=297299&postcount=563) are the problems I had with CtS directly.

A stronger analysis of CtS's role and comparisons to pre-nerf Morphling are here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=300709&postcount=755) and here. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=300750&postcount=760)

While I think Morphling is no longer an auto-include (like FoF/FoW/Counterspell), and it doesn't help us stabilize as effectively against fat creatures, it is still one of the better options in our very limited cardpools of blue wincons. I still mostly agree with this argument I made pre-nerf:


Going to time in game 3 happens really does happen (although, this is most common in control vs control matches). This is one of the risks of bringing a hardcore control deck like Draw/Go to a tournament. It is a damage race at times. Forcing through a win condition and winning on the spot is sometimes the only shot you have of winning the match. I know you've had times where it was make or break, you had Morphling in hand and 5 land, you've dropped it defensively, stabilized the game with just him, and then won before your opponent could recover. Few win conditions can claim to do that.

In control matches, I don't think MUC has a difficult time surviving to the late game. The question is really can you win before it is too late. Morphling is about winning while you have the opportunity to do it. It doesn't waste time, and that still matters. Is Morphling unbelievably faster than CtS? Not by a crazy amount, but by a few turns absolutely. Those few turns can definitely make the difference.

Most importantly: Morphling abuses the temporary windows of stability that MUC creates, and CtS really doesn't. Once you've untapped with Morphling, you've probably just won. There are games that you only have a short window of time to drop a threat before an opponent could recover, and Morphling does a better job in this role than CtS. Morphling crystallizes your stability and allows you to convert to the aggro role more effectively than CtS. CtS has inevitability, but if you've played with the card, you'd know it really does take a lot longer to win the game than several alternatives.

With all that said, I'm not completely against CtS. The card is very good. I just don't think CtS dethrones Morphling in most cases. If you really are less concerned about going to time or have less need for the tempo-oriented plays to be made from cards like Morphling, then by all means, play CtS.

The nerf made Morphling equivalent to the power level of CtS. Where I once thought CtS had no place, I'm willing to say it deserves 1 slot. Now, we must find other ways to be avoid the need for tempo-oriented plays, as we can no longer rely upon Morphling as strongly.

CtS mitigates the value of these strategies against MUC's wincons:


Discard
Removal
Permission

By consequence, CtS also improves the odds have retaining counterspells in your hand for other concerns.

Luckily, the strongest wincon for MUC isn't even a creatures, it's shackes.




peace,
4eak

[Tea]

The way I see it at the moment:

I like “Turbo Morphling”, too. I think the modern version of it is MUC with Sower of Temptation. It doesn’t run acceleration, but the threats are cheaper. You disrupt your opponent heavily with BtB and cheap counterspells like force spike, stifle and kill him before he can recover.

1. Echoing truth helps in the early-game, too. I think it helps more than a cheap draw, if we can assure dropping a land each turn. But I don’t think dropping a land each turn is a problem, if we raise the land count to 25.
2. Additional draw is only needed for the late game. AV doesn’t improve the early-game, either. Think Twice is in fact a lategame card.
However, I think we don’t need additional draw because of CtS. CtS is not carddisadvantage, but cardadvantage, for he turns the lands we draw into threats.
3. You have to play a land each turn, but you can stop at seven lands, and up from there you can use the lands for CtS-tokens.
4. CtS is not just a win-condition, but a board-control card like Vedalken shackles.
He can’t stop an army, but some threats.
Morphling was a board-control card, too; but through M-10 he became mere a win-condition.
5. I doubt CtS is mana-intensive, because of the following reason: You don’t have to play more than a CtS-token a turn. It is not needed to play a token and a Counterspell a turn.
6. Furthermore, your hand-cards are limited; I highly doubt you can generate that much card-advantage that you are able to play two cards a turn, if 1/3 of your deck are lands. This may possible with 4 FoF and 4 AV…but…

I agree that Morphling abuses the temporary windows of stability better than CtS. However, those windows are created by BtB, Vedalken shackles or by a large amount of cardadvantage, which is difficult to generate. Morphling is worth running, if you run BtB, too. Though, if you have stabilized the game with the help of Vedalken shackles, Morphling is a win-more.
And a large amount of card-advantage is very difficult to achieve.
The thing is: CtS can stabilize the game way better than Morplhing.

[Dembones]

The thing is: CtS can stabilize the game way better than Morplhing.


By the time you're "stabalizing" with CtS, you could have already played Morphling and swung twice with him, or "stabalized" the game at least two turns earlier.

Shackles, B2B, and Propaghanda are meant to stabalize, as you've pointed out in your post, Morphling is meant to win.

[jthanatos]

By the time you're "stabalizing" with CtS, you could have already played Morphling and swung twice with him, or "stabalized" the game at least two turns earlier.

Shackles, B2B, and Propaghanda are meant to stabalize, as you've pointed out in your post, Morphling is meant to win.

CtS beats control decks. And to say Morphling comes down 2 turns earlier than CtS is just misleading. Morphling essentially costs 6, and your opponent better be pretty much empty handed before you even cast him at that point. You can't always count on your opponents being nice and letting Shackles and Propaganda hang around, and Back to Basics isn't always a back breaking play. CtS gives you the ability versus control to just say "I am going to play a 5/5 flier each turn until you can't deal with it anymore."

And one more time, I never advocate running only 1 win con in your MUC, I think 2 different creatures + shackles/sowers is the minimum. But one of those win cons should be CtS, it is just that good.

[Dembones]

CtS beats control decks. And to say Morphling comes down 2 turns earlier than CtS is just misleading. Morphling essentially costs 6, and your opponent better be pretty much empty handed before you even cast him at that point. You can't always count on your opponents being nice and letting Shackles and Propaganda hang around, and Back to Basics isn't always a back breaking play. CtS gives you the ability versus control to just say "I am going to play a 5/5 flier each turn until you can't deal with it anymore."

And one more time, I never advocate running only 1 win con in your MUC, I think 2 different creatures + shackles/sowers is the minimum. But one of those win cons should be CtS, it is just that good.

I've run 3 shackles, 2 sowers and 2 efreet before which I kind of liked, but I removed the sowers for another powder keg and CtS.

About CtS...
I guess it's playable, but I feel it's slower than we should be. I've had issues with opposing Shackles, recurring EE, that kind of thing. You guys also make it sound like you always have the ability to Retrace it, when I've gone long stretches where I didn't find a land, or I wanted to use a few of that 7 mana elsewhere.

With all that said, there are definitely worse cards for the deck.

[bowvamp]

CtS...
Here are my arguments against it. It might be inevitable, but graveyared hate makes it not so. Opponents running Echoing Truth kill it's effect and you just might be running yourself out of lands.

My suite of "le-kill" includes mostly old time favorites, but a couple others have been added.
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Rainbow Efreet
1 Vendilion Clique/Venser (can't decide on the "flashy" options each of which are nice)
1 Jace Belerren
2 Vedalken Shackles

Ok, a little about why they are good. RazorCore kills any creatures that get through, and continues to kill creatures that get through while swinging for 5 and blocking with 5 toughness. Rainbow Efreet is almost immune to removal and can even permanently remain out of the game. Vendilion Clique and Venser win games quickly because they disrupt the opponent and supplement your other win-cons quite well. Jace Belerren wins independantly of your life total and draws you cards. Vedalken Shackles generates card advantage, psuedo CA, tempo, and a win-con.

About draw. I personally still love me some predicts cause they are 1/3 chance to drop an island in the yard netting you two cards and either way, they could always drop an artifact to be recurred by shackles and brainstorm no longer needs fetches. Next come Fact or Fictions, they are amazing, I run 4. Disrupt is like force spike 5-6 and draws you a card. And I already explained Jace.

[Tea]

Well, in my testing I’ve never run out of lands for CtS.

[bowvamp]

What do you guys think about Rimewind Cryomancer? I found him in my teammates junk collection. Seems like a stifle every turn, a win-con, and a good blocker to boot.

[jthanatos]

What do you guys think about Rimewind Cryomancer? I found him in my teammates junk collection. Seems like a stifle every turn, a win-con, and a good blocker to boot.

He is interesting, but only being able to do activated makes him less exciting, as he is only half a stifle. Also, 4 mana for a 2/3? Why not run Azorius Guildmage (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=41138) for the same ability and same clock or run Phyrexian Ironfoot (http://sales.starcitygames.com//carddisplay.php?product=41932) if you want a blocker that can kill stuff.

The biggest draw back to my eyes is not protecting himself and not swinging the game. If you look at most of these MUC lists, creatures that cannot protect themselves in some way instead bring the game back to our favor, such as Sower.

But hey... at least you could pitch it to Force.

[bowvamp]

The other half of the stifle is what? Triggered abilities rarely come up.

Guildmage takes the same amount of mana for the first activation, and it just grows from there.

Ironfoot is definetely not the best blocker for three mana you could come up with is it? Serendib Efreet would like to have a word with you.

He protects himself by stopping cards that would kill him. (Deed) Or hindering the opponents plan enough to win (fetches).

And winning is just 10 turns of swings. That's 3 more than what it would replace. (Clique/Venser)

He's good because he fits well in any situation, not for just one use.

[Doks]

CtS...
Here are my arguments against it. It might be inevitable, but graveyared hate makes it not so. Opponents running Echoing Truth kill it's effect and you just might be running yourself out of lands.

If my opponent boards grave hate against me only because of CtS I'm gonna go "Hooooray!". And who plays Truth?

It is not the best Wincon when you want to win the game in exactly 4 turns (I still think Morphling is the most efficient option when it comes down to efficient KILLING, unfortunately not stabilizing anymore thx to M10 rules), but it fills the roles morphling lost or never could fill:

a) chump blocking and/or almost always trading 1 for 1
b) dodging ANY form of removal
c) "Fof-immune": how often did I have to care if I really could allow Morphling going to the grave? This problem is gone with CtS.

[Tea]

Most of you suggest running one CtS. Why not running three of them and playing “Dragon, go” every game? As an alternate win-condition I run one rainbow efreet. In a build with 4 Nev Disk, she is better than Morphling. With Echoing truth, you can bounce Nev Disk in response to its activation getting it once more. I’ve cut Think Twice, because TT and CtS don’t interact very well, as they are both very expensive. Moreover TT is not needed, since CtS gives us enough lategame power.

[Kadaj]

Most of you suggest running one CtS. Why not running three of them and playing “Dragon, go” every game? As an alternate win-condition I run one rainbow efreet. In a build with 4 Nev Disk, she is better than Morphling. With Echoing truth, you can bounce Nev Disk in response to its activation getting it once more. I’ve cut Think Twice, because TT and CtS don’t interact very well, as they are both very expensive. Moreover TT is not needed, since CtS gives us enough lategame power.

Because it's slow as hell. Seriously, you will never actually be in a scenario where "Dragon, go" is a viable strategy. Every single deck in Legacy has some sort of way around a token with no protection, and if you're tapping out every turn (which is what you'd have to do to make Dragon, go work) they're going to either swing through it, around it, or kill it. Oh, and there's the basic problem of scooping to Meddling Mage naming CtS, having them Extirpated, Thought Hemorrhaged, etc.

Prior to the M10 rules changes, I advocated just running 3 Morphling because it was by far the best overall creature available and it was faster/more versatile than CtS. Now, I think 2 Meloku and 1 other Win-Con is the way to go. Frankly, I still don't think CtS is any good. It's slow, it's cumbersome, and literally the only advantage it has over ANYTHING else is that it recurs. Whoopee? Honestly, how many of you have run into a scenario where you had all of your wincons killed by an opponent and wished "Damn, I need a CtS right now?" Because I can tell you straight up, I've never had that happen to me before, whether in testing or in a tournament.

Incidentally, a build with 4 Nev's Disk is slow as balls as well, and probably has all sorts of issues blowing up its own board control cards. Why bother making concessions to the card if it's not actually that good to begin with? It's not good against Goblins and Merfolk (Too slow, too vulnerable), and it's got similar problems against Thresh albeit it's lack of speed isn't as much of a problem there, and it's garbage against other control decks. I'm not really seeing the upside there.

[Tea]

In order to win the game, MUC needs a kind of “hard-lock” in the lategame. CtS is a way to create such a “hard-lock”. Another way is having locked the opponent down with a couple of Propaganda and BtB. You can rarely win the game with an overwhelming cardadvanatge, because this is difficult to achieve.

My gameplan with MUC including Disk and CtS is the following:
1. Surviving the early-game with a bunch of counters and bounce
2. Stabilizing the game with Disk and shackles
3. Creating a “hard-lock” with CtS.

Meddling mage doesn’t bother, because Disk will have destroyed him before. Extirpate may be a problem, but only a few decks run it. That’s why we run an alternate win-condition.
If the strategy of CtS is getting too vulnerable, it won’t be viable. But as long as there is not so much hate, I think it’s a strong plan.

If you don’t run Propaganda, or if you don’t play something like Turbo-MUC, I think there is no way around Nev Disk. However, I agree that Disk is a questionable strategy, because it’s very vulnerable to Krosan grip. Disk is slow, but this is why we run 14-16 counters + bounce.
I wonder if there is a MUC having a better early-game than the one with Disk, for a version without disk can’t afford running so many counterspells.
Blowing up one’s own board-control cards is only an issue, if we run Propaganda. Disk destroys everything. After Disk having wiped the board, we start from a much better position than the opponent.

[Dembones]

In order to win the game, MUC needs a kind of “hard-lock” in the lategame.



I disagree. We don't have to rely on inevibility to win. We win based on gumming up the board, a pain in the ass creature, and a shitload of cards in hand.

[keys]

I really think Vendilion Clique is one of the best if not THE best win-con MUC has to work with. You don't have to tap out to play it and it can protect itself. I would run 2 Clique and maybe 1 Meloku.

I agree with others that Call the Skybreaker is probably too slow.

[lorddotm]

I really think Vendilion Clique is one of the best if not THE best win-con MUC has to work with. You don't have to tap out to play it and it can protect itself. I would run 2 Clique and maybe 1 Meloku.

I agree with others that Call the Skybreaker is probably too slow.

I agree.

The problem with MUC is that it doesn't have a fast Wrath. Why not got UW and pick up Humility and Wrath of God?

[Kadaj]

In order to win the game, MUC needs a kind of “hard-lock” in the lategame. CtS is a way to create such a “hard-lock”. Another way is having locked the opponent down with a couple of Propaganda and BtB. You can rarely win the game with an overwhelming cardadvanatge, because this is difficult to achieve.

My gameplan with MUC including Disk and CtS is the following:
1. Surviving the early-game with a bunch of counters and bounce
2. Stabilizing the game with Disk and shackles
3. Creating a “hard-lock” with CtS.

Meddling mage doesn’t bother, because Disk will have destroyed him before. Extirpate may be a problem, but only a few decks run it. That’s why we run an alternate win-condition.
If the strategy of CtS is getting too vulnerable, it won’t be viable. But as long as there is not so much hate, I think it’s a strong plan.

If you don’t run Propaganda, or if you don’t play something like Turbo-MUC, I think there is no way around Nev Disk. However, I agree that Disk is a questionable strategy, because it’s very vulnerable to Krosan grip. Disk is slow, but this is why we run 14-16 counters + bounce.
I wonder if there is a MUC having a better early-game than the one with Disk, for a version without disk can’t afford running so many counterspells.
Blowing up one’s own board-control cards is only an issue, if we run Propaganda. Disk destroys everything. After Disk having wiped the board, we start from a much better position than the opponent.

Where have I heard this before? Oh right, it was the million other times control decks have thought sweepers, many of which were much better and faster than Disk, were actually enough to beat properly built aggro decks. Seriously, Disk is garbage against Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo, and just about any well built aggro. So against what do you want it? It's cumbersome, vulnerable, and it makes you concede to not playing things like Vedalken Shackles, or at least playing them around your own Disk which doesn't exactly sound like the sex to me.

You don't beat aggro with bad sweepers. You beat them by playing good cards like Shackles, Sower, Clique, Meloku, Phling, etc, that not only serve as potential win conditions but can also help blunt an aggro decks assault in conjunction with Powder Keg and your early game counters, as opposed to Disk which just makes you tap out on turn 4 and walk into a counterspell, a removal spell, or just plain old being killed before you can use it.

And, for the record, you win more with overwhelming card advantage than anything else. That's the whole point of a control deck; having more cards in hand and better board position in the late game than anyone else. Even what you described as a soft "lock" is basically just an extension of the aforementioned card advantage. That's why you run the full 4 Facts and at least one other supplemental draw spell. You can run plenty of stuff that will allow to survive in the early game without stooping to crappy cards like Disk and relying on something as slow as CtS, which has no versatility whatsoever, to be your finisher.

[keys]

I agree.

The problem with MUC is that it doesn't have a fast Wrath. Why not got UW and pick up Humility and Wrath of God?

Well, because the deck isn't trying to be Landstill or Ultimate Walker. MUC is basically the only semi-budget control deck. I'd bet that most people that start playing MUC plan to or end up converting it to UW(x) Landstill.

[Eldariel]

Last I checked, Back to Basics was the whole reason to play MUC. Back to Basics and a double-colored splash mean one thing: Either your manabase will suck or you'll take out your own manabase with Back to Basics. Another advantage that MUC has as a control deck in Stifle- and Wasteland-immunity would also be lost.

In case it wasn't bloody obvious to someone yet, B2B is absolutely insane in Legacy and that's the primary reason to play MUC over...anything. Being budget doesn't hurt, of course, but that's not the only reason to play MUC.

[Tea]

So, Disk is slow; but that’s not the important thing. The important thing is whether the deck is too slow or not. Disk allows us to run more counters and counters are good for the early game.

How do you want to handle aggro? If you run Propaganda and powder keg, you have to run a lower number of counters, for Propaganda and powder keg are good if and only if you run them together. In fact I’m not happy with Nev Disk, but I’m not happy with propaganda and powder keg, either. Do you have another idea?

[Kadaj]

So, Disk is slow; but that’s not the important thing. The important thing is whether the deck is too slow or not. Disk allows us to run more counters and counters are good for the early game.

How do you want to handle aggro? If you run Propaganda and powder keg, you have to run a lower number of counters, for Propaganda and powder keg are good if and only if you run them together. In fact I’m not happy with Nev Disk, but I’m not happy with propaganda and powder keg, either. Do you have another idea?

I run Shackles, Keg, and Sower in the main. Between those, B2B, a bare minimum of 8 counters (the other 2 slots have fluctuated between Chalice in certain metagames and Spell Snare or some other variant of counterspell), you have at least a decent shot against aggro. In my tournament experience, Propaganda is much better coming out of the board when you can pick the battles you want to fight with it, as opposed to being stuck with it against Landstill if you run it in the main.

I've actually shifted the numbers around recently, I think I'd go with the following set-up:

X2 Meloku, The Clouded Mirror
X2 Vendilion Clique
X2 Sower of Temptation
X4 Powder Keg
X4 Back to Basics
X4 Force of Will
X4 Counterspell
X4 Fact or Fiction
X4 Think Twice/Ancestral Vision
X3 Vedalken Shackles
X3 Spell Snare/Force Spike/Chalice of the Void/Some other Counterspell
X24 Island

[Tea]

Meloku, Sower and Vendillion Clique, they all die to any kind of removal. Doesn’t this bother you? However, I can see the logic behind that: If they deal with them, you trade one for one; if they don’t deal with them, you will likely win; and of course you can protect them with counterspells.

I still think Nev Disk and CtS are viable strategies, for they are simply very powerful spells. But I have to test further.
At the moment I’m trying out Telemin performance as an alternate win-condition in this build of MUC.

[Tea]

Sorry for double post, but I really have to say that.

I think Powder keg is a weak strategy. Powder keg is supposed to deal with 1cc permanents. However you have to tap out on turn 2 or on turn 3, thus allowing your opponent to drop another threat you cannot counter. Powder keg is very slow. Furthermore, Powder keg can stabilize the game as good as force spike, that is, it absolutely can’t.
I suggest running force spike, and maybe some bounce.


We definitely need a way to stabilize the game; in my opinion Nev Disk is as strong way to do this. However, I agree that there are other possibilities like Meloku, Sower, shackles.

I really like Meloku. Against aggro she can stall the game. Zoo doesn’t run any creature-removal except lightning bolt. Goblin runs warren weirding, but you can avoid warren weirding by playing meloku on turn six.
Sower of Temptation, on the other hand, dies to lightning bolt and to warren weirding.

Nevertheless, I doubt whether Meloku can stabilize the game better than Disk, for, if you compare them, they are equally vulnerable depending on the matchup.

I think you should run both.


Back to basics can’t bring you back from a bad board position. BtB’s assignment is to assure that your opponent won’t be able to recover after you have stabilized the game with shackles, disk, meloku, whatever. That being said, I think 4 BtB is too much.

[socialite]

Sorry for double post, but I really have to say that.

I think Powder keg is a weak strategy. Powder keg is supposed to deal with 1cc permanents. However you have to tap out on turn 2 or on turn 3, thus allowing your opponent to drop another threat you cannot counter. Powder keg is very slow. Furthermore, Powder keg can stabilize the game as good as force spike, that is, it absolutely can’t.
I suggest running force spike, and maybe some bounce.


We definitely need a way to stabilize the game; in my opinion Nev Disk is as strong way to do this. However, I agree that there are other possibilities like Meloku, Sower, shackles.

I really like Meloku. Against aggro she can stall the game. Zoo doesn’t run any creature-removal except lightning bolt. Goblin runs warren weirding, but you can avoid warren weirding by playing meloku on turn six.
Sower of Temptation, on the other hand, dies to lightning bolt and to warren weirding.

Nevertheless, I doubt whether Meloku can stabilize the game better than Disk, for, if you compare them, they are equally vulnerable depending on the matchup.

I think you should run both.


Back to basics can’t bring you back from a bad board position. BtB’s assignment is to assure that your opponent won’t be able to recover after you have stabilized the game with shackles, disk, meloku, whatever. That being said, I think 4 BtB is too much.

So tapping out for Powder Keg is bad, but tapping out 2 turns later and waiting yet another turn to untap Disk that goes North Korea on your board is good?

You want to run less than 4 Back to Basics in MUC? Why even play this deck?

Oh and Zoo runs a mix of LB, CL, LH, and even FB.

[Tea]

So tapping out for Powder Keg is bad, but tapping out 2 turns later and waiting yet another turn to untap Disk that goes North Korea on your board is good?

You shouldn't compare powder keg with disk. They serve different roles. You should compare powder keg with force spike/bounce/counters and disk with meloku/sower/shackles, etc.


Oh and Zoo runs a mix of LB, CL, LH, and even FB.
So you want to say that meloku is bad, too?

[4eak]

I've argued for Disk viability for a long time. I still do. Tea is correct; Powder keg and Disk play fairly different roles. Keg forgoes power for tempo, playing much the same role of Bounce or Force Spike. Disk is a card you have build around. If you haven't built around the card, then obviously you are going to find it lackluster. Draw/Go MUC can still make use of Disk (e.g. our house's version tends to play 2-3 Echoing Truth and 4 Force Spike as the tempo slots).

So what if a handful of people here don't like it? Take this thread with a grain of salt. Not many people play this deck anymore. Half the people here argue against Brainstorm, and yet the card is seems to be successful in top8 MUC lists.

MUC is one of the few old school decks that has never really crystallized. In fact, even defining the line between MUC and Landstill has been tricky in my eyes. There is still so much card choice variance and difference in viable control strategies. Hell, StP is one of the most successful cards in MUC, and that isn't even a blue card.

You can attribute this variance to whatever you want, but I'm still very skeptical there are really such definitive builds that fringe cards like Disk can truly be ruled out.

Disk has a uniquely powerful effect, and while expensive/slow, it certainly has a benefit that scales up with that cost. I think its been a while since you hardcore control players have honestly tested the card.

Like so many of the Established Decks, we also need to own up to the fact that MUC is only viable in some metagames. Bending over backwards to answer certain decks just isn't feasible. Perhaps we need to just stick to our strong points and throw matches that aren't worth the effort. Disk is a card which exemplifies such a strategy. Those who run Disk are going to strengthen certain matches and become weaker against others, and that's okay. Going black or white against the metagame can be a very reasonable thing to do. I think Disk is a reasonable choice in metagames where MUC could be a reasonable choice.







peace,
4eak

[DragoFireheart]

I agree.

The problem with MUC is that it doesn't have a fast Wrath. Why not got UW and pick up Humility and Wrath of God?


1. It's now no longer Mono-Blue-Control.

2. Why not just go all the way and play Landstill?

[Tea]

I have to admit that some of what I have said before is not correct, but I think I’m about to understand the deck better and better.

On Call the Skybreaker
Actually, CtS is better to be compared with TT/FoF/BtB than with shackles, Meloku, Sower.
CtS and Meloku/Sower, all of them serve as finishers, but being a finisher is not their supreme function. CtS/FoF/TT/BtB ensure Inevitability and shackles/disk/meloku/sower ensure stability.
Kadaj, as you have stated correctly, CtS is too slow to stabilize the game. Well, if we run BtB, CtS is not needed.

On Brainstorm
Brainstorm was compared to Think Twice and Ancestral Vision. This is a mistake. AV and TT are lategame cards (Yes, TT is a lategame card), whereas Brainstorm is more of early-game card. However BS isn’t useless in the lategame and TT isn’t useless in the early-game.
If you compare BS with TT, TT is +1 CA, but if you compare 2 BS with 2 TT, TT is +2 CA.
In the lategame, this matters a lot.

Ok, I have found a good reason to run 4 BtB: Through BtB our cards which can stabilize the game can be protected more easily.

@ Kadaj
I suggest the following changes:
-4 powder keg, +4 force spike.
-2 vendilion clique, +2 mana leak. What’s the role of vendilion clique? It’s not a board-control card. As disruption and protection, mana leak seems better, especially with BtB.
-1 meloku, +1 shackles. If you play BtB followed by shackles, they will likely be able to remove only one of them. That’s why; I think vedalken shackles is better than sower of tempatation and Meloku.

[Kadaj]

I've argued for Disk viability for a long time. I still do. Tea is correct; Powder keg and Disk play fairly different roles. Keg forgoes power for tempo, playing much the same role of Bounce or Force Spike. Disk is a card you have build around. If you haven't built around the card, then obviously you are going to find it lackluster. Draw/Go MUC can still make use of Disk (e.g. our house's version tends to play 2-3 Echoing Truth and 4 Force Spike as the tempo slots).

I might agree with you if Powder Keg didn't, you know, actually kill things. And, unlike Force Spike, it's actually good in the mid to late game. I also simply don't think Draw/Go MUC is viable at all in a metagame that has any aggro present whatsoever. Before you go "test it first before commenting" I have. A lot. You can't beat a competent Goblins player, or Merfolk, or Threshold. I'm not really seeing the upside if you can't handle anything short of a control deck.

Disk has a powerful effect, yes, but it also forces you to make concessions to it by sacrificing very powerful cards like Shackles and B2B. It is, incidentally, also very very slow. Seriously. Tapping out on a turn 4 in MUC is foolish beyond reason when the card you're playing literally reads "Pay 4 mana, do nothing". Draw/Go really has no business playing that card anyway, because even with it, you still can't beat aggro!

Oh, and for the record, just because a card appears in a deck that top-8d doesn't make the card's selection correct whatsoever. It means the general core of the deck, and/or the pilot of said deck, was strong enough to win some games. Whether the card is Brainstorm, Think Twice, Disk, Shackles, Sower, or whatever, occasional success in a tournament does not validate its selection. A much larger sample size is needed.

EDIT:

Tea, Force Spike doesn't do the same thing as Keg. Keg can actually kill a threat that has already resolved, and it is not erased by your opponent simply keeping one mana available. Clique is important because it's another threat and it does act as a form of disruption that is not replicated by simply adding further counterspells. If you want to run Force Spike, just run them in that variable counterspell spot.

And no, you can't really afford to go down to 1 Meloku. You really need that threat that can just turn off an offense on turn 7/8, and Shackles isn't good as a four of against most of the field. I might lose 1 Sower for the 4th Spike, or possibly cut both Cliques and add in 1 more Shackles and one more Spike if you really don't like them, but I'll probably stick with the Cliques for the time being, they've been surprisingly helpful insofar.

[Dembones]

I might agree with you if Powder Keg didn't, you know, actually kill things. And, unlike Force Spike, it's actually good in the mid to late game. I also simply don't think Draw/Go MUC is viable at all in a metagame that has any aggro present whatsoever. Before you go "test it first before commenting" I have. A lot. You can't beat a competent Goblins player, or Merfolk, or Threshold. I'm not really seeing the upside if you can't handle anything short of a control deck.

Disk has a powerful effect, yes, but it also forces you to make concessions to it by sacrificing very powerful cards like Shackles and B2B. It is, incidentally, also very very slow. Seriously. Tapping out on a turn 4 in MUC is foolish beyond reason when the card you're playing literally reads "Pay 4 mana, do nothing". Draw/Go really has no business playing that card anyway, because even with it, you still can't beat aggro!




I agree with this. I think Perm Based MUC is really the only MUC that is worth taking a chance with if you're going to a larger tournament. It's extremely resiliant against the aggro decks that are popular right now, and it has a chance against the control decks that are out there due to the evasive, hard to pin down creatures we generally use, on top of strong card draw and non conditional counterspells.

On Disk, if you're blowing up all of your permanents with it because you're being swarmed on turn four, something went wrong. We don't need to wipe the board of all permanents unless it consists of an Aether Vial or Nimble Mongoose, and Keg does that just fine.

[4eak]

@ Kadaj

We've been over this before. Obviously my post wasn't meant for you. Argue against Brainstorm/Disk/non-permanent MUC builds until you are blue in the face. I'm a fairly competent Goblins and Thresh player and I've simply had different testing results. If your build was really that optimal, I'd hope to have seen more results for it. Your suggestions are tailored for the DtB gauntlet usually (and I appreciate that), but I think that is no longer an acceptable strategy for this deck. Again, you need to take seriously that MUC may just be a deck which only temporarily becomes viable, and is very metagame dependant (like so many other Established decks). Perhaps the deck should just stick to its strong suit, and actually be chosen when its a reasonable deck. This is a deck which targets a specific metagame, and it likely has lost its ability to have generic viability.

As for the sample size of Brainstorm, don't act like it just randomly places 'occasionally' (as you put it). It is one of the most successful cards in MUC. As the 4th most played card in those 70+ lists, from a set of lists which show historical viability of the card given a long-term evolution of the general Legacy metagame, I think you've exaggerated your argument against Brainstorm. Even if you don't think Brainstorm is optimal (by some degree), you have very little evidence to show its suboptimal by any serious margin.

If this were a combo deck, then I could more readily accept your rhetoric. Control decks are generally a bit more malleable though, and you've the wrong attitude about the nature of a role which must attempt to co-evolve with the metagame. While MUC has fairly limited options for modification (as far as control decks go), it does have some wiggle room. That freedom can be leveraged.

I'll certainly admit that deckcheck is not the only place we should consider. I think it is a good indicator of whether or not a deck is crystallized though. If you were so obviously right about MUC (which your sarcastic tone implies you think you are), I'd hope that the deck would have evolved to be your list. As it stands, I think deckcheck is a testament to the fact that you aren't obviously right. Your build perhaps might edge out other options, but not by a large and obvious margin. Clearly, there are alternatives that are tournament worthy and there are specific metagames where the alternatives are better than your list.

The reason Powder Keg is more of a tempo card than an all out board sweeper is because it is restricted in targets (not hitting enchantments or high CC cards can be a problem) and because it isn't common to sweep away multiple permanents with it (excepting tokens). Powder Keg doesn't answer high CC targets, and you might not have the time to ramp up a Powder Keg before you would die to a high cc win con. While a true board sweeper can easily generate board card advantage, Powder Keg does not do so reliably. Powder keg is a tempo-based answer, much closer to Force Spike and Echoing Truth than to a card like Disk. Sure, Keg "taps" and "destroys" like Disk, but the reasons you tap it and the times at which you do so match more closely with the other tempo options of MUC. Keg can obviously be stronger than Force Spike/Echoing Truth in a vacuum, as it is better in the late game (although even Force Spike and Echoing Truth can be used late game), but that doesn't mean it isn't fulfilling those tempo roles.



@ Dembones


On Disk, if you're blowing up all of your permanents with it because you're being swarmed on turn four, something went wrong. We don't need to wipe the board of all permanents unless it consists of an Aether Vial or Nimble Mongoose, and Keg does that just fine.

You are right that you shouldn't be required to have a turn 4 Disk every game. I think you've missed the fact that Disk rarely blows up your own permanents on turn 4. You aren't playing permanents very often in those first 3 turns, but also, decks that are built around Disk won't be playing as many permanents in the first place.

Disk isn't just some reset button. It is a stabilizer and a card advantage engine. One of Disks' strengths is its ability to wipe enablers and threats in the same device, almost always netting you card advantage. Cards like Aether Vial, Counterbalance, Jitte are powerful, yet individually somewhat benign, as they don't function as win conditions themselves. It is often the case that you can wait and sculpt/grow your hand until enough relevant threats and enablers are on the board that you should take advantage of the Disk. You also need to be accustomed to playing with disk. For example, players will try and slow roll you, not overextending their threats into the Disk. Depending on the threat, this plan can backfire. If my opponent resolves a creature and is beating for 1 or 2, hoping I'll disk just for that, I'm likely just to take it (unless this is Zoo) and start generating raw CA through FoF. By slowrolling, they risk letting me to get the mid and late game. If they let me get to the late game, then I usually have the advantage. Once I have the Islands to use cards like Shackles, and protect them, they are unlikely to come back. Disk functions as a Catch-22 dilemma for an opponent in that if they don't overextend into it, then they risk getting buried by the rest of my CA engines, else they'll need to drop enough threats that I'm forced to Disk and risk their own card disadvantage.

Mind you, I'm not saying Disk is the only viable option. I'm only explaining that it itself can be a viable alternative (as it can be a reasonable strategy to build and play a control deck to take maximum advantage of high-CC spells) in metagames where MUC is a viable choice (which it currently isn't in general, and can't be warped to answer the current metagame).

I happen to play Kadaj's list pretty often myself. I'm just not sold that it is the only reasonable build.




peace,
4eak

[Kadaj]

@ Kadaj

We've been over this before. Obviously my post wasn't meant for you. Argue against Brainstorm/Disk/non-permanent MUC builds until you are blue in the face. I'm a fairly competent Goblins and Thresh player and I've simply had different testing results. If your build was really that optimal, I'd hope to have seen more results for it. Your suggestions are tailored for the DtB gauntlet usually (and I appreciate that), but I think that is no longer an acceptable strategy for this deck. Again, you need to take seriously that MUC may just be a deck which only temporarily becomes viable, and is very metagame dependant (like so many other Established decks). Perhaps the deck should just stick to its strong suit, and actually be chosen when its a reasonable deck. This is a deck which targets a specific metagame, and it likely has lost its ability to have generic viability.

As for the sample size of Brainstorm, don't act like it just randomly places 'occasionally' (as you put it). It is one of the most successful cards in MUC. As the 4th most played card in those 70+ lists, from a set of lists which show historical viability of the card given a long-term evolution of the general Legacy metagame, I think you've exaggerated your argument against Brainstorm. Even if you don't think Brainstorm is optimal (by some degree), you have very little evidence to show its suboptimal by any serious margin.

If this were a combo deck, then I could more readily accept your rhetoric. Control decks are generally a bit more malleable though, and you've the wrong attitude about the nature of a role which must attempt to co-evolve with the metagame. While MUC has fairly limited options for modification (as far as control decks go), it does have some wiggle room. That freedom can be leveraged.

I'll certainly admit that deckcheck is not the only place we should consider. I think it is a good indicator of whether or not a deck is crystallized though. If you were so obviously right about MUC (which your sarcastic tone implies you think you are), I'd hope that the deck would have evolved to be your list. As it stands, I think deckcheck is a testament to the fact that you aren't obviously right. Your build perhaps might edge out other options, but not by a large and obvious margin. Clearly, there are alternatives that are tournament worthy and there are specific metagames where the alternatives are better than your list.

The reason Powder Keg is more of a tempo card than an all out board sweeper is because it is restricted in targets (not hitting enchantments or high CC cards can be a problem) and because it isn't common to sweep away multiple permanents with it (excepting tokens). Powder Keg doesn't answer high CC targets, and you might not have the time to ramp up a Powder Keg before you would die to a high cc win con. While a true board sweeper can easily generate board card advantage, Powder Keg does not do so reliably. Powder keg is a tempo-based answer, much closer to Force Spike and Echoing Truth than to a card like Disk. Sure, Keg "taps" and "destroys" like Disk, but the reasons you tap it and the times at which you do so match more closely with the other tempo options of MUC. Keg can obviously be stronger than Force Spike/Echoing Truth in a vacuum, as it is better in the late game (although even Force Spike and Echoing Truth can be used late game), but that doesn't mean it isn't fulfilling those tempo roles.

@4eak:

I suppose the bottom line for me is that I've been completely unable to replicate your success against aggro with the draw/go builds. To each his own, in the end. I've had some decent success with my own build, top 16 twice at The Mana Leak and I really don't play that much in terms of major tournaments otherwise, and while yes I have seen plenty of other MUC builds, many that include Brainstorm, Top 8 that doesn't make them the best build. Something being popular does not make it correct, and while the argument can be made that there's a reason why the aforementioned builds are more popular, I'm inclined to believe its more related to a lack of exposure than anything else. Aside from in this thread, I doubt the Brainstormless build of MUC garners much discussion elsewhere, quite possibly because it does look quite unorthodox at first glance.

And yes, it is true that MUC hasn't crystalized into a sort of accepted framework yet, despite my firm belief that it should've done so a long time ago. It's simply my experience that the so-called permenant MUC builds have a higher EV than draw/go in larger tournaments (i.e. with a more varied expected field in terms of potential archtypes).

Given the way you described Powder Keg, yes it is a tempo generator in that sense. But, unlike many of the other tempo generating options that have been pitched around this thread, Powder Keg actually removes threats. You can Echoing Truth something to gain tempo, but if its really a big enough threat (and most of the threats of that nature in Legacy are cheap enough that they will often appear in the early game) it will just come down the following turn and you'll once again have to either counter it or bounce it again. Keg, on the other hand, removes the offending card outright. This can be extremely important against stuff like a Nimble Mongoose (which you can't bounce anyway) or Aether Vial, or Dark Confidant, or Goyf, or any other litany of cards you want to get rid of and not have to contemplate again the following turn.

[Purple_Rain]

i dont know how on earth anyone can play this deck without white for swords and to enhance EE which solves the vial and mongoose problem. this also opens up the retardedly amazing brainstorm plus fetchland which is actually all about card quality since that is the only thing this deck cares about, as most of the opponents cards are dead against this deck (stifle(you fetch t1 nub:P), wastelands, all removal).

and i have never had a problem vs goblins and i dont even play propaganda, esp since i play fetchs and get to side in plagues after sb(even g1 im about 55-45).

and what is this metagame that apprently is right for MUC. this deck can beat everything if tuned properly, well more or less without corrupting it vs the rest of the field.

[4eak]

@ Purple_Rain

Your list sounds like it is drifting towards Landstill (which I don't mind).


and what is this metagame that apprently is right for MUC. this deck can beat everything if tuned properly, well more or less without corrupting it vs the rest of the field.

Hmm...So you mean to say you have favorable matchups against the DTB gauntlet with a single list? Show me. So far, you're the only person to disagree with my point about about MUC targeting metagames (rather than being generically good, which it may have been before, but no longer is), and I'm interested to see what makes you say that.

I certainly think MUC has a shot against nearly any deck, but I'm not convinced you can make favorable matchups against the entire DTB gauntlet. I'll be happy to test the list you provide.




peace,
4eak

[reale]

Hi all. First post here, but i read almost all the 120+ pages back in some years (this and the old topics).

I have an old MUC based in a stack-oriented list since I stopped to play. Now, backing to the game and knowing all those newest MUC's enemies, I'm converting my list to fit some permanents to (try) gain the control of the board through them. I'm not convinced yet (and a lot of people probably won't like what i'll say) that a permanent oriented list is (a lot of) better than a 16-18 or even 20 counters on it with 2-3 B2B and the traditional split 2/2 shakles/keg plus morph.

Since I'm not trying to win the world and just looking for a enjoyable deck that has a (good) chance to win in a wide meta, i would opt in: more counters to the early game and play those shakles/kegs only when I got 2 mana available (after paying its costs). The only thing I'm really trying to do is not lose to an Extended/Standard deck and have a good match against any Legacy deck.

I don't have a well finished list since my tests are very rarely yet, but soon I share with you what i'm thinking about MUC for what i want to do with it.

Now, my question: isn't 2 Morph and 2 Teferi a good choice since Teferi's abilities would let you put him without tap in your turn and provides a Morph to come down to the battlefield the same way with Flash? What about the "soft lock" Teferi provides? Isn't good? Why not? If he resolves in the end of opponent's turn, he can't answer with nothing until his next turn, where i'm untapped waiting with that disrupt for his removal and maybe an end-of-turn morph on turn 6-7-8.

If I have more magic (plus quicksand AND mishra's factory) to handle until turn 8, isn't a good strategy? Another things I'm trying to fit in the MD is 2 CotV and 1 Misdirection.

Thank you.

PS: It seems like I'm talking with friends since I've been reading you for a long time.

[Jason]

Now, my question: isn't 2 Morph and 2 Teferi a good choice since Teferi's abilities would let you put him without tap in your turn and provides a Morph to come down to the battlefield the same way with Flash? What about the "soft lock" Teferi provides? Isn't good? Why not? If he resolves in the end of opponent's turn, he can't answer with nothing until his next turn, where i'm untapped waiting with that disrupt for his removal and maybe an end-of-turn morph on turn 6-7-8.


I used to play with Teferi and I found it isn't that exciting against anything outside of control match-ups. Sure it was a 5-mana "destroy target Mongoose" a couple times and it is a hilarious response to your opponent casting Dreadnought, but most of the time, it was a flop that would have been better served as another Shackles, Keg, Back to Basics or counter.

As many have said numerous times, creatures are not the reason MUC wins (hint: it's Shackles and/or Back to Basics). Teferi was only good for me when I had another creature - Morphling or Meloku are the most exciting with Teferi - in hand. That can be problematic, seeing as most MUC lists don't play more than 7 or 8 creatures (and that's on the really high end with most topping out at 3 or 4 creatures). However, even when I did have more creatures and played Teferi, it was too slow for its 5-mana cost. Only against control decks was I able to play it at end-of-turn. I'd get in for a whole 3 damage before my opponent would just play a main phase Swords which I didn't want to counter. Against aggro decks I had to play Teferi defensively, flashing it in to kill a Factory or Mongoose. This left it open to being Swords or burned out in the second main phase. In both match-ups, I was usually in a situation where protecting Teferi was a waste of a counter because I needed to keep the counter magic to protect the real bombs - Shackles and/or Back to Basics.

[socialite]

I have not been happy with Ancestral Visions. I agree that it is an excellent card for what it does in MUC. However I have been increasingly disappointed in the quality of the card in the mid to late game. I have also been annoyed by the fragility of card in regards to it being stifled and or countered upon resolution (true for most cards however suspend gives the opponent time to react).

I do not want to add Brainstorm, Polluted Delta, and Flooded Strand. I like making all of my land drops as well as being immune to non basic hate and Stifle.

I still need a filtering effect to help rid myself of mana flood/mana screw. What is left to complement Fact or Fiction as well as help with filtering? I was thinking Opt but that seems very weak.

Any suggestions?

[reale]

I used to play with Teferi and I found it isn't that exciting against anything outside of control match-ups. Sure it was a 5-mana "destroy target Mongoose" a couple times and it is a hilarious response to your opponent casting Dreadnought, but most of the time, it was a flop that would have been better served as another Shackles, Keg, Back to Basics or counter.


Thanks for the light. So, is another creature with Flash viable? Is there any blue creature with Flash/Shroud, walking around on the Legacy's plane just having a good time in the albumn, waiting to join the list? :rolleyes:

I still can't digest Meloku.....

[Nessaja]

Palinchron? Not exactly has either but useful just the same.

[Tea]

@Ertai's Familiar
I think you have to find a way to make use of the lands you draw in the lategame. That’s why I like CtS. The problem is that there is no good filtering effect available without fetchlands.
Some suggestions…but probably they suck:
Intuition, you can use it like a cantrip in the early/mid-game fetching 3 lands. So you get a land for the early/mid-game and you reduce the number of lands you can draw in the lategame.
Have you tried Oona’s grace?

[socialite]

@Ertai's Familiar
I think you have to find a way to make use of the lands you draw in the lategame. That’s why I like CtS. The problem is that there is no good filtering effect available without fetchlands.
Some suggestions…but probably they suck:
Intuition, you can use it like a cantrip in the early/mid-game fetching 3 lands. So you get a land for the early/mid-game and you reduce the number of lands you can draw in the lategame.
Have you tried Oona’s grace?

I tried CtS a while back when it was first brought up in this thread. To say I dislike the card would be an understatement. I'm looking to avoid drawing excess lands to begin with, cards like Oona's Grace are far too situational. 3CC for Intuition is too much, I was hoping to find something in the 1CC Instant group. Unfortunately it seems as though Opt is the best in that department when excluding Brainstorm and Ponder.

[Doks]

You don't run fetchlands, so Impulse is the next viable choice.

It got forgotten in the last pages of this thread, but it's still there and a great filtering card.
Only problem with you running no shuffle effects would be that you might not see cards you put back on the bottom of your library which is annoying some times and forces you to take a finisher e. g. instead of the needed answer, but those cases are rare.

4x Impulse
4x FoF

should do it very well in a non-fetchland build with 24 lands.

[reale]

Doks, could you share with us your recent build?

[socialite]

You don't run fetchlands, so Impulse is the next viable choice.

It got forgotten in the last pages of this thread, but it's still there and a great filtering card.
Only problem with you running no shuffle effects would be that you might not see cards you put back on the bottom of your library which is annoying some times and forces you to take a finisher e. g. instead of the needed answer, but those cases are rare.

4x Impulse
4x FoF

should do it very well in a non-fetchland build with 24 lands.

Forgot about Impulse, for shame. Good idea I will try it out.

On another note. Do we need something like this vs. Storm?

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=377837#post377837

[Dembones]

Forgot about Impulse, for shame. Good idea I will try it out.

On another note. Do we need something like this vs. Storm?

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=377837#post377837

I don't think so. We usually have upwards of 12 counterspells, and Back to Basics ruins the mana bases in most of the storm decks.

It might be nice to be able to side out shackles for that card, though.

[GGoober]

I would rather run Arcanis over Palinchron. Arcanis saves himself and activating him 1-2 times is good enough to end the game. Arcanis has been my most recent testing in perm-based MUC. It's still a little iffy, but drawing 3 (4) cards per turn is too backbreaking if he's unresolved. In Landstill, people mention Jace being the gg-factor if he is undealt with, but Arcanis, if undealt is even more backbreaking. Drawing those cards will get you counterspells/answers against anything they play. He's only good in perm-based MUC since you need good board control to set him up for the lategame.

[Tea]

Instead of playing Arcanis, you can just win the game, that is, you can just play Meloku.

Recently, I have played a lot with Brainstorm: I have to say it’s really strong – even without Fetchlands. BS improves your early-game incredibly, but most importantly it assures that you can drop a land each turn.
Another card which proves to be very strong is Ponder. It’s my BS 5 and 6.
You will never cast Ponder (or BS) before turn 3 and on turn 3, it has been a common play of me playing Ponder on my turn finding a counterspell.

Basically, I have tried out 4eak’s list from page 32. Impulse is also quite good, but I have found Ponder to be just better. However, I think Mishra’s Factory is a mistake. It weakens an early Vedalken shackles and loosing a land is really a bad thing, because FoF and Meloku need a lot of Mana. As a win-condition Mishra’s Factory is weak as well, and it can be hit by StP. Though, it is ok, if the opponent does not run Wasteland.


lands: 24
5 fetchland
19 Island

board-control: 7
4 Vedalken shackles
3 Nevinyrral’s Disk

win-condition: 3
3 Meloku

Draw: 10
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

counter: 16
4 Force of Will
4 Force Spike
4 Counterspell
4 Mana Leak

[Nidd]

What are the best wincons now, that Morphling got nerfed by the new combatruling?

Cerulean Sphinx?
Vexing Sphinx?
Rimefeather Owl?
Jace Beleren?

[Arsenal]

None of those, with an outside shot at Jace, are better than M10 Morphling. He's still top 3, with Meloku, Call the Skybreaker, and Sower/Kira among the contenders.

[Nidd]

Is CtSB really that good? I mean, it's expensive and eats your landdrops. But well, lategame you won't need that many lands, anyways...

Kira looks a bit slow to me. It will take you on average 9 turns (Let's assume our opponent cracks 2 fetches...) to kill an opponent.

Meloku... awesome idea. And he costs only 1 buck/piece. Hooray!

What are your thoughts on Forbid-lock? With a Jace on the table, you can counter 1 spell per turn consistently.

[Arctic_Slicer]

I have been testing Vendilion Clique lately and must say that it is pretty good. It may not seem impressive on paper but it's a three mana flyer that hits for three with a really great comes into play ability. Also it has flash which means you never have to commit to playing it on your own turn making it an ideal card for this deck. I'd definitely recommend trying it if you haven't as it's definitely worth the inclusion.

Since I've been running Sower of Temptation for some time; the addition of Vendilion Clique has me thinking of taking the deck in a more faerie oriented direction and adding Spellstutter Spite and possibly Mistbind Clique. Anyone else test with faeries and have an opinion on such builds?

[Tea]

What do you think of Sphinx of Lost Truths, the new card from Zendikar?

[Darkenslight]

Sphinx of Lost Truths is one mana too many for this deck; if it has cost 2UU with the kicker, then it would have made a very good finisher/CA engine.

[Nidd]

I made a list myself and played quite a few matches via MWS. The list works out pretty nice at the moment.

4 Jace Beleren

2 Meloku

3 Sower of Temptation
3 Vedalken Shackles

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare

4 Ancestral Vision

4 Back to Basics
4 Propaganda

24 Island


SB:

3 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles
4 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Wipe Away



I've had no real problems with any deck, save a 2LBelcher going off in my face Turn 1 with me on the draw and with no FoW in hand (oh well, which deck would win then, anyway...)

Thresh is pretty easy. B2B is a mustcounter for them, Sower and Shackles can steal their Goofys and Meloku can stall a ton and kill them.

Combo is so-so. FoW is a must on your opening hand and drawing a Vendilion Clique makes the game so much easier.

I've been considering Oona as a finisher instead of Meloku. She would compliments my alternative winning-condition, milling them with Jace instead of him creating tons of CA. She also creates tokens to block Goofys all day long and hits harder. Cons are that her ability doesn't generate as much tokens as Meloku's does and that she costs a considerable amount more.


Any comments/thoughts?

[reale]

I made a list myself and played quite a few matches via MWS. The list works out pretty nice at the moment.

4 Jace Beleren

2 Meloku

3 Sower of Temptation
3 Vedalken Shackles

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare

4 Ancestral Vision

4 Back to Basics
4 Propaganda

24 Island


SB:

3 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles
4 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Wipe Away



I've had no real problems with any deck, save a 2LBelcher going off in my face Turn 1 with me on the draw and with no FoW in hand (oh well, which deck would win then, anyway...)

Thresh is pretty easy. B2B is a mustcounter for them, Sower and Shackles can steal their Goofys and Meloku can stall a ton and kill them.

Combo is so-so. FoW is a must on your opening hand and drawing a Vendilion Clique makes the game so much easier.

I've been considering Oona as a finisher instead of Meloku. She would compliments my alternative winning-condition, milling them with Jace instead of him creating tons of CA. She also creates tokens to block Goofys all day long and hits harder. Cons are that her ability doesn't generate as much tokens as Meloku's does and that she costs a considerable amount more.


Any comments/thoughts?

I'm trying to find a way for Jace in my list, but which turn would you tap to play Jace, considering you have it in you opening hand?

Turn 3? Probably i would play B2B (all matches in legacy, considering non basics) or Propaganda.

Turn 4 is a dangerous turn... but if your B2B resolves to an all tapped opponent its another history.

We need to draw cards early and you removed Impulse/Brainstorm to AV and Jace. Your first draw its only on 5th turn, considering AV on the first turn or turn 4 with a turn 3 Jace, with no B2B or propaganda.

How are you playing with him? I don't have much opportunities to test it so, please, let me know.

Thanks.

[Nidd]

First things first, I only cast Jace when I know he will survive for at least 1 turn (read: FoW in my hand). Turn 3 is perfectly acceptable because then you start drawing cards. Don't be afraid to play him to bait your opponent into tapping out to attack through your Propaganda, causing him to cry tears of blood when you lay down a B2B next turn.

Jace is not only a simple drawengine, he's more. He is a bait, draw and a backup-wincondition. And quite some Aggroplayers like to kill him, which buys time. I know that he's a bad fog in that case, but from situation to situation, this is really good.

My drawengine has always been enough for my needs. Brainstorm is bad, because I don't play Fetches. And, honestly, Impulse creates zero card advantage. It fetches you 1 card out of 4 and if you're unlucky, it puts a card on the bottom of the library which you would have wanted now, too. I know from playing Solidarity, that Impulse is awesome because it digs quite deep and gives you what you need, but in this deck we want to actually draw cards, not dig for answers when the card we just played could have been the answer.
So to say, Impulse and Brainstorm make Fetches mandatory. And this opens me up for Stifle, which is a quite dead card against me. I think hitting your landdrops is more important for MUC than creating some cardquality.

[4eak]

@ Nidd

I did test your deck out, btw. I never tried out 4x Jace before (for various reasons that weren't good enough in hindsight), so I found it interesting. My testing showed Jace to be too risky and too easy to disrupt to play in general, and only worth casting when you had already stabilized the game.


Don't be afraid to play him to bait your opponent into tapping out to attack through your Propaganda, causing him to cry tears of blood when you lay down a B2B next turn.

As far as I know, your opponent will not have to pay any mana to attack your planeswalker. This may have been a serious difference between our perspectives on Jace.


It fetches you 1 card out of 4 and if you're unlucky, it puts a card on the bottom of the library which you would have wanted now, too.

If your lucky, it is putting cards you don't want on the bottom. Impulse is nice because it can be useful at any stage of the game in any blue deck. Control decks in particular have the most use for such a filter, as they usually are digging for the best answer to a particular threat.


And this opens me up for Stifle, which is a quite dead card against me.

No, it really isn't dead against you. Ancestral Visions is perfectly stifleable. Sower becomes a 2/2 flyer for 4 mana with a Stifle also. Additionally, against decks running maindeck stifle (tempo decks), they'll still find them useful in buying a single turn against Vedalken Shackles, which can be the difference in swinging for lethal or not. Jace/Meloku abilities can also be targeted, and pitching to Force is also an option.

Obviously, Stifle is not the card of choice against your MUC deck, but it isn't dead. The idea of virtual card advantage (whereby the card quality of a card is at or near zero) regarding Stifle against your deck is a falsehood.

As a sidenote to your draw engine: You removed the centerpiece of the draw engine (chaining FoFs together), and in the end, I think you've got a much less stable and even a poorer draw engine in a vacuum. You have to tap out in your mainphase too much to make it work, and you get less in return for that risk than you would if you had just stuck to FoF on end step.


I think hitting your landdrops is more important for MUC than creating some cardquality.

If you ran Brainstorm or Impulse, I'd believe that. Right now, you have Jace and Ancestral Visions, which are generally much poorer at helping you hit your land drops.




peace,
4eak

[reale]

Jace/Meloku abilities can also be targeted, and pitching to Force is also an option.




So what's your current win condition? Since Morph's Shroud ability isn't affected, the M10 rules didn't change my expectations on him. I'm still testing 2 Morph and 2 Teferi, but didn't find a player with a good deck, just random builds in my area... i'll try MWS soon, never used it. (Can we play togheter through IP?)




If you ran Brainstorm or Impulse, I'd believe that. Right now, you have Jace and Ancestral Visions, which are generally much poorer at helping you hit your land drops.



Agreed.

Finnaly, 4eak, could you show us your current list? :laugh: :laugh:

See ya!

[4eak]

@ reale


4eak, could you show us your current list?

On a regular basis I use Kadaj's permanent-based list and the draw/go list that I posted on pg. 32 in this thread. I play around with tons of variants though. My current Dedicated, blue control deck:

23 // Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Windswept Heath (will go 3/3/3 split on new duals)
3 [R] Tundra
3 [u] Tropical Island
7 [MI] Island
1 [u] Plains
1 [ARE] Forest

4 // Tarmogoyf? Check.
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

13 // Board Control
4 [u] Swords to Plowshares
3 [US] Back to Basics
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives/Nevi's Disk
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles (I actually want to put this up with Tarmogoyf, as they both play similar roles in Offense and Defense)

12 // Permission
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [6E] Counterspell

8 // Draw
4 [DD2] Fact or Fiction
4 [BD] Brainstorm

What I said before about this deck:


I love Draw/Go, and that was the starting place for this deck. This is just MUC with StP + Goyf, filling in some of the greater weaknesses of pure MUC. I consider it neither Thresh nor Landstill. It still plays Draw/go, yet it has the option to make tempo plays when necessary...It is not itself immune to B2B, but it does break the symmetry of the card by a greater proportion than most decks. Fetches and Brainstorm give you good odds to get the basics you need.


So what's your current win condition?

I think Tarmogoyf is worth the splash. People complain that they 'open themselves up', but I don't think they've really tested such a minor splash.

Morphling, Meloku, Mishra's Factory (I've discussed this before, so you can read about it in the two MUC threads), and CtS are the other finishers I use when purely in blue.




peace,
4eak

[Kagehisa]

I was wondering if Browse was a viable choice in the Legacy MUC. As lots of people choose the permanent build, playing Propaganda against creatures and Back to Basics against non-basic lands, why not playing a permanent draw engine like Browse.

In my humble opinion:

It is not Fact or Fiction, not the instant speed, it makes nothing when it comes into play. It is more expensive than Jace.

The good point is that it doesn't die to our own powder kegs, it cannot be stifled or just once and when it is in play, the MUC player can dig and "draw" as if he has a permanent impulse in the late game. I know that "if the MUC player is in the late game, he should be already winning" but does the MUC player win fastest with Browse...? Has anyone try...? ( I was a fan of counter-post and draw-go... )

And if Browse is viable, is the MONOBLUE "combo" Browse + Beacon of tomorrows + Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir a viable choice...? Let me explain how it works...

Put Browse in play to get the other elements of the "combo"

Activate it and empty your library step by step at the opponent's end of turn,

draw spells and lands,

draw the Beacon too and drop lands until 9 Islands or more...

then at opponent end of turn, play Teferi with the instant speed. Imagine it is not countered (thanks to Force of Will or Foil). The opponent won't be able to play spell.

Use your last 4 manas to activate Browse and let in your library exactly one card.

Your turn now. Draw the last card and play the beacon and repeat your turn. Teferi protects your beacon from countermagics and is the kill if you manage to give him evasion... ( Wonder ? ) or to bounce/ kill with powder kegs blockers before the "combo" appears...

Yes... it is very hard to believe... XD

(Teferi is not necessary in deep... but he is there to secure the weak "combo"... Inspiration can kill you... If your kill dies, it is draw game, etc.)

Peace and love XD ( don't be too serious for the last part... as it is my first post XD )

[Misplayer]

@4eak:

Why not just play a CB/Top style list with B2B like the Germans used to? You're 75% of the way there with the list you posted above.

[4eak]

Why not just play a CB/Top style list with B2B like the Germans used to?

I know, it is just a hop, skip, and a jump away from being Thresh w/B2B. I really tried to preserve the spirit of dedicated control without resorting to the aggro-control tactics centered around the CB/Top softlock.

I actually agree that CB/Top would make the deck better. I still wanted the 'feel' of MUC's more draw/go playstyle, which is quite reactive compared to Thresh, but with the fewer of the weaknesses.

I play MUC out of nostalgia and as a window into magic's game theory, but no longer do I take it to unknown metagames or think it is ever going to become better than tier 2. The once universal control nature of MUC's permission has fallen by the wayside (that doesn't mean permission isn't useful, but rather it has more limited roles/purpose). Top flight pilots are now the only people that can reasonably expect to win with MUC (the point isn't that the skill minimum for the deck is so high, but rather such pilots could probably play any of the tier 1-2 decks and place well in a tournament).

Truth be told, I think MUC will continue to fall out of favor. Take, for example, the new fetchlands which make B2B less potent. Additionally, the prevalence of disenchant effects (which answer our most important board control options) does not appear to be diminishing any time soon either.

Instead of asking myself timeless questions such as "should I splash?" and "why not play Landstill?", I am now stuck with even worse questions, "Do I really answer the metagame?" and "Can dedicated control decks be generically good choices anymore, or is it best to just play aggro-control?"





peace,
4eak

[UberNewHacks]

What do you guys think about Dream Halls? People drop Meloku or Call the Skybreaker or Morphling, so why not Dream Halls?

[memnarch]

Personally I think MUC is still a top deck in Legacy. Ill post my current list but I wanted to talk about the theory first. Some of this theory I discovered on this thread. First I prefer running solid draw over any "searching" type of spell like brainstorm or ponder. This is for getting more land drops which really matters in this deck but also because we have access to free counters. Try Disrupting Shoal its AMAZING. Run with Spell Snare or another 1CC and you're able to nab early cards that really hurt later, like aether vial or goblin lackey. Your able to out-counter most any deck and counter top isn't going to resolve. So with 8 free counters like that your able to many times: Either tap out to play a permanent or tap out in resp and draw into a free counter. If you have only a draw spell in hand. Most everything in the deck is an answer so it makes sense you would want pure CA and have the ability to use flexible free counters and lose some CA but still come out even with the oppenent untill your drop a win con. But I would feel reluctant about running almost any targetable creature with a low CC. 2CC is super common and gets hit with the keg enough where I wouldn't want to run goyf. Or any permanent with a low cc. I run Pithing Needle only because it stops so many things that can hurt the deck, Aether Vial, Mishra's Factory, Sensei's Top. Usually nothing will resolve the first couple of turns and then by then you will hopefully get a draw or some more permanent answer. Keep in mind some of my choices are different beacuse of certain CC I wanted to hit with Shoal, like decks that use counterbalance take into consideration. Although most decks should always vary the costs anyways due to chalice and counterbalance. For instance running Thirst for Knowledge was partially because of the 3CC cost but also because its the cheapest instant real draw.

21 Island
1 Academy ruins

3 Morphling (makes for a nice pitch to shoal against force as well, part of the reason to run 3)

4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Condescend

4 Powder Keg
3 Back to Basics
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Pithing Needle

4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Fact or Fiction

[pingveno]

Fresh off the Zendikar Spoiler:
Sphinx of Jwar Isle
4UU
Flying, Shroud
You may look at the top card of your library at anytime.
5/5

May be worth testing? I mean the ability probably isn't too relevant but a decent bodied flyer with shroud seems pretty strong. Thoughts?

[Misplayer]

@pingveno
My first question would be: How is this Sphinx better than Morphling?

Also, does anyone else think that the new cycle of Fetches might be the final nail in the coffin of permanent-based MUC? Back to Basics will be considerbly weaker once it becomes simple for all decks to run a basic of each color to fight through non-basic hate. I'm afraid the only viable strategy after Zendikar may be Disk-based draw-go control.

[pingveno]

@pingveno
My first question would be: How is this Sphinx better than Morphling?

Also, does anyone else think that the new cycle of Fetches might be the final nail in the coffin of permanent-based MUC? Back to Basics will be considerbly weaker once it becomes simple for all decks to run a basic of each color to fight through non-basic hate. I'm afraid the only viable strategy after Zendikar may be Disk-based draw-go control.


My first answer would be it isn't. But I think its been the consensus to run more than one win con to combat random stuff like extirpate, and cranial extraction. I think this sphinx is at least as good as stuff like Call to the Skybreaker. He seems almost as good as morphling for what you want a win con to do, win in 4 turns.

Secondly, I dont think permanent based MUC is dying, and certainly not because of fetchlands. Sure they make B2B a little worse, but shackles is still a beating, propaganda is still a beating, and certainly B2B will still be a card they have to play because they they are fetching basics. Maybe the mana denial just needs to be expanded a little bit? Who knows, but for now we will see what happens.

[jthanatos]

@pingveno
My first question would be: How is this Sphinx better than Morphling?



Because it is a 5/5 flier for the same relevant mana cost? Morphling does cost 6. It can't get as big on the back end, but it doesn't require continuous mana investment. Seems good.

[gobblor]

maybe not better but just as good I think. costs 6 just like morphling pretty much. has shroud and flying already without pumping in extra mana. 5/5 without pumping in extra mana which is just as big too.

[reale]

@pingveno
My first question would be: How is this Sphinx better than Morphling?

Also, does anyone else think that the new cycle of Fetches might be the final nail in the coffin of permanent-based MUC? Back to Basics will be considerbly weaker once it becomes simple for all decks to run a basic of each color to fight through non-basic hate. I'm afraid the only viable strategy after Zendikar may be Disk-based draw-go control.

That's almost the same... since i usually play him only with 6 mana to shroud. Maybe it is even better, for the "always 5/5 flyer" (not 5/1 or 1/5 AND paying mana).

So Morph has untap ability........ we should consider that in some situations. For me, the great advantage is to have another type of creature... been immune to some removals. Split 1/2 or 2/2 (for those that runs 4) finishers maybe it's a good idea. BTW, its the first Zen's blue card I wanna make a comment.

I'm playing MUC with 18 counters and, since the release of Spell Snare, the deck played better with 4. I used to play draw-go, with 3 B2B MD.... if ZEN with those fetchs really impact something (i'm not sure it will), maybe i would move B2B to SB and replace it with Kegs (Disk?) or more counters.



Maybe the mana denial just needs to be expanded a little bit?


What would you suggest?

See ya!

[memnarch]

I use B2B not always intending to use it to shut down the opponent. My main reason is to fight man lands in match ups like landstill.

[DeMarki]

I'm not using B2B in my MUC version, since most decks nowdays are using Fetchlands in order to splash a second color, so as soon as they realise I play MUC they will always be fetching all their basic lands first.

And to be honest, I believe the deck is doing better without them. I pack some heavy board control, including 4 Powder Keg and 4 Sowers of Temptation, with 18 counterspells, making sure nothing gets through.

[DragoFireheart]

Has anyone tested Dream Halls in this deck yet?

[dontbiteitholmes]

No need to test Dream Halls because it's obviously terrible. By the time you reach 5 mana in MUC you can more or less cast everything in your deck, why give you opponent a chance to drop his whole hand when you rely on counters?

Also I think Sphinx of Jwar Isle deserves more respect. Let's face it, Morphling is a ghost of what it once was. No longer can I attack for 5, untap him to block, pump him to kill a 3-4-5 toughness creature, then swell his toughness back up to live through the fight. Creatures are getting bigger and Morphling is getting worse every set, especially with new combat rules. It's unlikely Morphling is going to win cleanly blocking the biggest threats in Legacy today, he eats mana in a deck that thrives on being able to cast instants, and he's no longer 1 of 2 viable options for MUC. Sphinx does everything Morphling does except untap, and grow past 5 toughness, but he let's you look at the top card of your library (More relevant than I would like to admit for MUC) and he never requires a mana investment past casting. They might as well be the same casting cost and with the amount of FoF/Counters/Shackles instant effects I'm leaning towards a Skybreaker/Sphinx/Meloku package.

[Gunseng]

I have been thinking about taking MUC for a spin on a big tourney in january. How does this deck perform againt the decks to beat? Do I have a chance of making top 8?

[Tao]

I have been thinking about taking MUC for a spin on a big tourney in january. How does this deck perform againt the decks to beat? Do I have a chance of making top 8?

If you don't know about the format, then you should probably try an aggressive deck instead. You have to know how the matchups go if you play MUC.

[Tea]

There is also a new bounce in Zendikar: Into the Roil. It seems like a better Repeal. What do you think? It’s as mana-efficient as Echoing Truth, however it can’t deal with Decree tokens.

[Doks]

It's CC 2, so very vulnerable to Counterbalance, but really has the advantage of bouncing annoying things like Humility (if one has resolved) and does not create CDA when you have enough mana. But as all the other bounce, this will be not the first choice when it comes down to board control choices.

[Tea]

This deck has no tool to deal with Planeswalkers and pithing needle is tough, too. So 2-3 bounce seems worth running.

[jthanatos]

Isn't cryptic command just better? I guess it does give us another out to turn 2 dreadnaught, but for most every other situation, cryptic command functions as a bounce and/or something else useful.

[Tea]

I personally think that it’s better than Cryptic Command. Bounce + Draw is also a quite common play of Cryptic Command.
But the primary question may be whether a bounce is actually desired?
A Bounce gives us an out to Planeswalkers, pithing needle, and Humility; it’s another card for the earlygame; and you can save your own cards with it.

[4eak]

Into the Roil is admittedly an interesting middle of the road option between the raw tempo possibilities of Echoing truth and the swiss-army knife, no-CA-loss Cryptic Command which sports a hardcounter.

I appreciate that Into the Roil is a 2cc Bounce, which hits the sweetspot for the cost of a tempo card for MUC. The option to draw makes it a substantially better top deck than most bounce spells.

I think the card is better than the other bounce options if:

a.) You aren't using it to bounce Counterbalance.
b.) You will use it as a 2cc Bounce card w/out Kicker half the time you use the card.
c.) You anticipate rarely ever facing tokens/multiples.

Repeal and Cryptic Command are both better against CB, and if you intend to kick it almost everytime, then Cryptic Command is head and shoulders better. I do play bounce, and I do prefer low-CC, but I think Echoing still edges this card out due to tokens/multiples concerns.




peace,
4eak

[Tao]

Isn't the CMC on the stack 4 when you kick it? Not sure, but then it would be an awesome bounce against CB because aside from 6+ four is CB biggest weakness.

[4eak]

It will still be 2cc on the stack, even when kicked.




peace,
4eak

[reale]

Has anyone tested the new Morph? It's cheaper ($$) and almost the same.

[socialite]

Has anyone tested the new Morph? It's cheaper ($$) and almost the same.

What?

[reale]

Fresh off the Zendikar Spoiler:
Sphinx of Jwar Isle
4UU
Flying, Shroud
You may look at the top card of your library at anytime.
5/5

May be worth testing? I mean the ability probably isn't too relevant but a decent bodied flyer with shroud seems pretty strong. Thoughts?


That's almost the same... since i usually play him only with 6 mana to shroud. Maybe it is even better, for the "always 5/5 flyer" (not 5/1 or 1/5 AND paying mana).

So Morph has untap ability........ we should consider that in some situations. For me, the great advantage is to have another type of creature... been immune to some removals. Split 1/2 or 2/2 (for those that runs 4) finishers maybe it's a good idea. BTW, its the first Zen's blue card I wanna make a comment.

(...)

See ya!

[Tea]

I think she hasn’t been brought up yet: Spellstutter Sprite.
Could you comment on her? I have seen her quite in a lot of decks lately. What I like about her is that she is also a chump-blocker for some more the early-game defence.
Do I need more faeries than just 4 Spellstutter Sprite in order to make her worthwile?

[Link Ramirez]

Do I need more faeries than just 4 Spellstutter Sprite in order to make her worthwile?

The question is what 1cc spells do you fear that are not handled by Powder Keg. I can only think Sensei's Divining Top and to a lesser degree perhaps Vial. And they will come into play (sorry, enter the battlefield) before Spellstutter can handle them.

I'm playing with three Vendilion Clique right now. But I can't think of what to cut in MUC for the Spellstutter without turning it into a Faerie deck. I'm even against Mutavault, because I don't want to enable enemy Wastelands. And of course because of Back to Basics.

[Kagehisa]

Had anyone ever tried 1-4 Vesuva in MUC ?

(Land. You may have Vesuva enter the battlefield tapped as a copy of any land on the battlefield.)
It can enter as an tapped Island (that is immune to Back to Basics) or you may choose to copy a Wasteland or a Rishadan Port or a fetchland or I don't know...
You might want to copy a Wasteland to destroy a land immune to B2B, like a land with a annoying static ability...
If you copy a fetchland (that can fetch an Island if you know your opponent isn't playing Stifle or any other kind of counterability), your opponent will sacrifice it, and I don't know what will happen to Vesuva... any ideas ? there is no "target"... I would guess you choose on resolution. I don't even know if something (from Vesuva) goes to the stack...
Whereas the opponent could use and sacrifice his or her Wasteland, his or her only available target would be his or her own land because you don't play nonbasics land, so the question would be pointless here.

At worse, it is a basic island that is immune to B2B and enters tapped, not too bad, right ?
At best, well, that's my question...hm...

What could Vesuva be at best in MUC and against which build/deck ?

[Link Ramirez]

Had anyone ever tried 1-4 Vesuva in MUC ?


It's good to see that there are still some MUC-players out there!



If you copy a fetchland (that can fetch an Island if you know your opponent isn't playing Stifle or any other kind of counterability), your opponent will sacrifice it, and I don't know what will happen to Vesuva... any ideas ? there is no "target"... I would guess you choose on resolution. I don't even know if something (from Vesuva) goes to the stack...
Whereas the opponent could use and sacrifice his or her Wasteland, his or her only available target would be his or her own land because you don't play nonbasics land, so the question would be pointless here.


Playing a land is a special action (rule 114.2a) that does not use the stack, so nobody can respond it and it will never resolve. Because of this you say which land you copy while taking the special action.



What could Vesuva be at best in MUC and against which build/deck ?

The only use I can see is to nuke opposing Volrath's Stronghold (Legendary) if you can't find / can't resolve B2B, and to annoy landstill. But I don't think this is worth it because you have better solutions.

And I prefer my islands enter play untapped, because to survive the first rounds you need every mana you can get.

[Serginho]

what can MUC do against merfolks? I play MUC and merfolks is a matchup that gives me a huge headache.

[1rakete]

I have been playing a lot MUC for some time and I also had heavy merfolk issues.

- What helps: god draws, massively flooded / screwed opponents, propaganda, powder keg, dreadnaught and stifle (if its mono u) - you just race them, wining the dice roll.

But all in all its really a horrible matchup if you are straight muc without any splash. Adding a light w-splash for swords for example can be really nice if you can protect your white mana (might also be good against other hard aggro matchups). But even this makes it not more then 40 %.

If you are in a really heavy merfolk meta, just dont play muc. At least splash white for swords.

[Serginho]

Where I play there aren't so much merfolks, just 3 or 4 people from 60.

But I'm worried about that matchup because I plan to go to the GP with MUC, this version

// Lands
23 [P2] Island (3)

// Creatures
2 [ZEN] Sphinx of Jwar Isle

// Spells
3 [US] Back to Basics
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [TE] Counterspell
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [NE] Accumulated Knowledge
3 [TE] Propaganda
4 [ZEN] Into the Roil
4 [SC] Stifle

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 1 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [US] Annul
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [TE] Chill
SB: 3 [NE] Submerge


This version works cool.

I played muc with black splash before but I dislike playing this deck with fetches, since I play it with just 23 islands it's OK.

The problem is merfolks, I think with black splash back I would be able to do something with the engineered plague but they have lots of lords + aether vial that f*cks my counters. So that's the problem.

Also, what do you guys think about my deck?

[Moonlight]

Is the AK really turning out nice for you?

I think it could be awesome to play the new Jace in MUC.. just because..wel.. he is insane :cool:

[Serginho]

Yes ak is good because it has a good combination with FoF and can give 2 or 3 cards as instant if you are in a hurry.


About the rest, what's your opinion?

[Link Ramirez]

Where I play there aren't so much merfolks, just 3 or 4 people from 60.

But I'm worried about that matchup because I plan to go to the GP with MUC, this version

// Lands
23 [P2] Island (3)

// Creatures
2 [ZEN] Sphinx of Jwar Isle

// Spells
3 [US] Back to Basics
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [TE] Counterspell
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [NE] Accumulated Knowledge
3 [TE] Propaganda
4 [ZEN] Into the Roil
4 [SC] Stifle

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 1 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [US] Annul
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [TE] Chill
SB: 3 [NE] Submerge


Yeah, I always enjoy to work on MUC :smile:
Some questions.

What is the purpose of Stifle? Countering fetchlands? What do you need the tempo for. The same goes for Submerge in the board?

How is Accumulated Knowledge working for you, and how is it superior to Ponder? I mean, the first AK just cantrips. And then you need to find a second AK to net a card.
Edit: Moonlight beat me to this.
Edit 2: You still need to survive to cast FoF. Just saying. I usually have no problems after I cast FoF, more to survive until i can cast it.

What are the advantages of Into the Roil over Repeal? OK, Into the Roil can bounce Gaddock Teeg. Anything else?

What do you need Annul for? Where is it better than Spell Pierce?


I use at least 3 Pithing Needle in my 75 to kill Aether Vial. And to stop Sensei's Top/Planeswalker/Manlands or even Quasali Pridemage.

I'm generally against a splash. But what about red for Firespout. And perhaps Pyroblast in the board. With Scalding Tarn, you could even keep the splash basic for B2B.

Regards, LiRaz

Edit 3: No Powder Keg? Really?

[1rakete]

- I like Sphinx as finisher. Would be more awesome in combination with fetchlands.

- I dislike Stifle Maindeck without Wasteland. In my eyes, Stifle MD is played usually (unless your meta is 30% storm combo and 20 % belcher) because you want to disrupt the Manabase of your opponent along with Wasteland and probably even Sinkhole. I know Stifle is very versatile, but the main idea is attacking Manabase in my eyes. So I would not play Stifle in your deck at all.

- Is Into the Roil really that much better then Echoing Truth or Repeal?

- If you play straight MUC without splash, I think Powder Keg is a must (at least 3 MD). Otherwise you need EE.

- I would play Spell Pierce over Annul.

- For what do you play 2 Chill? I think 4 BEB, Powder Keg and 4 Propaganda will take good care of goblins.

- One rough idea against Merfolk I just discovered: Llawan, Cephalid Empress. Could also be nice in the mirror.

My suggestion:

MD:

- 4 Stifle + 4 Powder Keg

Sideboard:

- 2 Chill - 4 Annull + 4 Spell Pierce + 2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress

@Accumulated Knowledge

Which card draw is basically a questions of preference. For me, Ancestral Vision works very fine and is the choice, for others, its worse then counsel of the soratami. Knowledge is okay in my eyes.

[Serginho]

EDIT: 1rakete I have read your edit after posting this message, I will try your changes.

First, thank you very much for your replies.


@Link Ramirez: & @1rakete:

-About Annul, I prefer it rather than pierce because against decks like painters, white control(seems easy but can be annoying), stax, counter/top or dreadstill it is like a counterspell, it has no conditions. Anyway, I haven't teste spell pierce in it's place so I'll try it.

-About stifle, I read in this tread someone that said that he changed his 4x force spike for 4x stifle. I tried it and the difference is huge. Stifle can turn the game at the first turns to your side quitting a fetch, or in late game can make that eternal witness that would own you in just a 2/1 for 3 mana or save your shackles/B2B/Propagandas from a evil EE. I think it's not only for tempo decks, if you combine it with B2B has very utility.

If I changed it, which would be the card would you put in it's place?

@Link Ramirez:

-About into the roil, I'm just trying it. I stopped playing repeal because tombstalkers caused me headache, but I don't discard playing them again.

-About submerge, saves your life for 0 mana and gives you one extra turn to find an answer to that rhox war monk or tarmogoyf that is pulling you life points down.

-About Firespout, sounds very interesting, but I dislike playing muc with fetches, anyway I will try, if it resolves a bit the MU against merfolks it would be included.

-About Pithin Needle, I'll try too.

@1rakete:

I played Kegs when I started playing MUC but I found them very slow, you put them in play and then you need to charge them and pray to not to receive a stifle, very typical in my meta. Moreover, I only find it useful against vials, and decks that use vials in 1st turn usually don't mind if you activate your keg in third turn. It's just my opinion.

Can you guys post your lists?

[Moonlight]

Its been a while since I played MUC, but I would run this list, or something similar:

MUC:

// Lands
23 Island

// Creatures
2 Sphinx of Jwar Isle

// Spells
3 Back to Basics
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare
3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Fact or Fiction
2 Jace, the mindsculpter
2 Ancestral Vision
3 Propaganda
3 Echoing truth
1 Cryptic command
4 Stifle

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Back to Basics
SB: 1 Propaganda
SB: 4 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Powder Keg

[Link Ramirez]

Llawan, Cephalid Empress: Good idea, but I would only dedicate two sideboard slots to pure Merfolk hate if this is a common matchup for you, because I see no other use for Llawan.

Splashing without fetchlands: How? If you still want to support B2B you need to get that basic mountain.

Powder Keg: I also think it is slow and was playing EE instead with 3 Flooded Strand, 3 Polluted delta and a basic Plains and Swamp. If you want to splash red, you can follow a similar approach with Mountain/Forest and switch the Keg to EE.

Submerge: I prefer stealing the creatures with Sower of Temptation and Shakles. But Submerge in response to Fetchland activation is fun.


My current list:

// Lands
23 [ZEN] Island (1)

// Creatures
2 [ZEN] Sphinx of Jwar Isle
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [DD2] Counterspell
4 [DD2] Fact or Fiction
4 [UD] Powder Keg
2 [TSP] Wipe Away
3 [US] Back to Basics
4 [M10] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [4E] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce

Ponder started as Ancestral Visions, but 4 FoF is enough and Ponder helps me get there.

The Vendilion Clique fun. Instant speed removal for Trygon Predator and Nimble Mongoose. And you can target yourself if necessary. And it beats for 3.

[1rakete]

@Firespout

I think that is a really bad idea in Legacy. Does nothing vs. Gobos, because they can beat you nevertheless to death with haste next turn. Does nothing vs. Rhox War Monk, Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker. May also be a dead card against elves. Can be to slow vs merfolk (cursecatcher).

I currently do not have a MUC list, because I am probably going to play EVA GREEN (unlikly) or Fish in Madrid (quite sure about that).

If I would make one, I would try to develop something like this:

// Lands
1 [BD] Swamp (1)
14 [7E] Island (2)
1 [P2] Mountain (3)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn

// Creatures
1 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 [ZEN] Sphinx of Jwar Isle
3 [FD] Trinket Mage
1 [CHK] Meloku the Clouded Mirror

// Spells
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [US] Back to Basics
3 [REW] Powder Keg
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [4E] Counterspell
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
2 [DS] Echoing Truth

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [U] Meekstone
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 1 [REW] Powder Keg

Very much inspired by this version here: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=15138 . There should be videos available for this tournament and I think that he just won because of a good deck and skill. In my eyes, he had no ridiculus top decks as far as I can remember.

[Illissius]

Does nothing vs. Gobos, because they can beat you nevertheless to death with haste next turn.Logic!

Counterspell does nothing vs. anything, they can beat you nevertheless to death with the rest of their spells.

[Gunseng]

I played the following list at german magic 1 yesterday:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
23 [8E] Island (3)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
2 [US] Morphling

// Spells
1 [EVE] Call the Skybreaker
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [US] Back to Basics
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [UD] Powder Keg
4 [VI] Impulse
2 [TE] Propaganda
4 [MM] Counterspell
4 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 2 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth


I played against a ton of canadian threshhold. In my opinon Powder Keg is an enormously important card as it kills annoying stuff like mogoose, vial, dreadnaught, nacatl etc. Unfortunately it is sometimes a bit slow, especially against a resolved naught. It didn't need the propagandas maindeck at all, I am thinking about boarding them out for 2 Chalices and to replace the BEBs with Spell Pierce. Shackles are a bit slow sometimes, maybe one or two sowers would be good.

Also I think that FoF is the strongest drawspell available and I prefer him over AK. Imo Impule + FoF is the best drawingsuite in a version without fetchlands.

[Link Ramirez]

@Firespout

I think that is a really bad idea in Legacy. Does nothing vs. Gobos, because they can beat you nevertheless to death with haste next turn. Does nothing vs. Rhox War Monk, Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker. May also be a dead card against elves. Can be to slow vs merfolk (cursecatcher).



Supreme Blue wants to have a word with you.

I tend to not kill Goyf/Stalker because I like to win with them.

Firespout worked for me against Merfolk, but in Landstill.


Edit: @Gunseng, how did you finish? Your deck looks pretty good. How did you like the Chalice? I think I will change Ponder to Impulse and try Chalice.

[1rakete]

I think firespout in surpreme blue is way different then firespout in MUC.

- You can also play it to get any flying stuff.

- You usually do not need it against Lackey or something alike - you have other answers for this.

- You play Daze which might help to get it always through in Round 3.

- You have way more then 5 or 6 sources (which is 4 Scalding Tarn + 1 or 2 Mountain if you dont want to play V.Islands.)

- If the enemy has a critical mass of lords (of whatever tribe), you have way more solutions to kill one and then whipe the board.

My sentence that its bad in legacy at all if of course not right. But I really dont see it performing well in MUC.

[Tepesh]

I also played at Germanmagic 1 yesterday with a list like this:

// Lands
1 [OD] Plains (1)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
11 [IN] Island (2)
1 [OD] Mountain (1)
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [B] Tundra
1 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
1 [US] Morphling

// Spells
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Accumulated Knowledge
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [DK] Blood Moon
1 [EVE] Call the Skybreaker
1 [SHM] Firespout
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [AP] Fire/Ice
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren
4 [DLM] Counterspell

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 2 [SOA] Ethersworn Canonist


I was and still am evolving a MUC with red and white splash.
Red insteat of the black splash because I wanted to have a similar effect like wrath for MUC and red is the only colour which offers you massremovalspells while not having 2 nonbluemanacosts in the casting cost of the card.
Firespout is the card you need to beat all the aggro decks.
For sure, it doesn't kill Stalker, Goyf or Warmonk but it does kill a lot of other creatures you don't want to waste your spotremoval or sth like that.
e.g.: pridemage, hierarch, confidant, nacatl (nearly everything of goyfsligh/zoo cretures). Though it just kills tribaldecks like elves, merfolk and goblins.
The only big problem in tribal match-ups is:
a) vial
b) ringleader effects/ cardadvantage
c) hasty creatures
d) counter(merfolk)

But if you are a good player you can play around those problems. Lords are no problem beacuse you paly spotremoval on them and holocaust the board afterwards with firespout.

Another question would be: Blood Moon > than B2b????
Yes. Blood Moon is way better than B2B in most Matchups (only redbased or monocoloureddecks aren't really dominated by the moon.)
First thing is: noone exspects you to play Blood Moon in MUC. People don't even think about the fact we could play B2B.
Second factor is that you just cut your opponent from playing splashed colouredcards. (normally green). When you play a B2B when your opponent is tapped out you just cut him off his colours for some turn until he finds new lands (and fetches on basics) and lateron he just grips your B2B or shackles away. But when you play Blood Moon the opponent has no chance to get his basics by fetching them and gripping your winconditions. It's just a hard impact on the board and you yourself don't have any problems with that because you have got enough basicislands to support your shackles and your counterspells. Also Blood Moon kills nearly every land your opponent will be playing after a Blood Moon.
And if you want to know how hard the Moons impact really is:
Yesterday the Moon won (yes won!) 10 games by itself. Noone ever destroyed the Moon or was even able to do so. Thats a big number for a single card I think ;)

Maybe you ask yourself why I only play 1 Firespout in the maindeck and only play 2 Moons in the whole deck. First thing about Firespout is that i didnt thought about playing very often against Aggro or tribal at the tournament . (And I was right about that. I never played against tribal, even I really wished to do so. I didnt even played against Tempothresh and just against 1 Goyfsligh. And that was just an epic destruction leaving him no chance to win).
So why just 2 Moons?
a) it's red and you don't want to many nonbluecard in your deck.
b) 2 is the perfect number for this. You dont want to draw another one and you aren't suppossed to play BloodMoonControl.dec. It fits good into the Deck and wins a lot of games. But Sometimes it's just a dead card. Same with Firespout.
Some month ago I would play 2 Spouts but the Metagame says that Aggro is dying in westgermany these days.


Last thing to say:
I will for sure paly the new Jace instead of the old one. He's just better in everything. Protection himself, drawing cards (I will love that constant brainstorm!) or charge and win.

Just ask your questions. I wont have that much time for answering until wednesday because of learning and studying but I hope to answer your questions if you got some.
And sorry for the english. I hope it's not that bad and you could understand hat I wanted to describe.

[Gunseng]

(...)
Another question would be: Blood Moon > than B2b????
Yes. Blood Moon is way better than B2B in most Matchups (only redbased or monocoloureddecks aren't really dominated by the moon.)
First thing is: noone exspects you to play Blood Moon in MUC. People don't even think about the fact we could play B2B.
Second factor is that you just cut your opponent from playing splashed colouredcards. (normally green). When you play a B2B when your opponent is tapped out you just cut him off his colours for some turn until he finds new lands (and fetches on basics) and lateron he just grips your B2B or shackles away. But when you play Blood Moon the opponent has no chance to get his basics by fetching them and gripping your winconditions. It's just a hard impact on the board and you yourself don't have any problems with that because you have got enough basicislands to support your shackles and your counterspells. Also Blood Moon kills nearly every land your opponent will be playing after a Blood Moon.
(...)


I see your point, but I am unconvinced that Blood Moon is better than B2B. I played against Canadian Threshhold and the only thing which prevented them from burning me, was B2B. Blood Moon would be terrible in that situation. Blood Moon shutting down Fetches is great, but I am hesitant to splash any colour into MUC because the immunity to mana denial is one of the big strengths of the deck.


Supreme Blue wants to have a word with you.

I tend to not kill Goyf/Stalker because I like to win with them.

Firespout worked for me against Merfolk, but in Landstill.


Edit: @Gunseng, how did you finish? Your deck looks pretty good. How did you like the Chalice? I think I will change Ponder to Impulse and try Chalice.

Thanks for the praise. My finish was 2:3 drop. Sounds terrible, but it wasn't that bad:

1 Match: Canadian Treshhold
In the first game I manage to resolve B2B => oops I win. In the second and third game he buried me by boarding Spellpierce and REB, raising his countercount to 20(!). Without such extrem boarding I consider the matchup in MUC's favour, even though Mongoose is annyoing.

2. Match: Mono Green Chalice
The first game was lost thanks to bad drawing and the second thanks to the 10(!) cards he boarded in (Summoning Trap + Choke + Grip)

3. Match: Solidarity
I managed to win the first match, thanks to a massive countersuite and his rather noobish playing. In the second match Chalice for 1 and 2 got there :)

4. Match: Counterbalance
B2B got there in the first match, while in the second one multiple and recurring shackles dealt with his 3(!) goyfs.

5. Match: Random Nought/Stifle + Hexmage/Depths Combo
That's where it ended. First match he surprised me with dual duress followed up by nought+ stifle. Second game he won the force battle and killed me. Chalice would have been a house here, but I didn't draw it.


Chalice is a house against combo and easily playable for 0 and 1 in my deck, because only spell snare gets hindered by it. Unfortunately I couldn't test it against ANT. I am thinking about maindecking 2 Chalices because chalice for 1 neutralizes tons of annoying spells (Ponder, Brainstorm, Nacatl, Mongoose, Top, Needle, Stifle etc.). I have to test that though.

I urge everyone to test 1 Academy Ruins in there deck, recurring shackles and keg is simply nuts. Also try Impulse, you won't regret it!

[Link Ramirez]

I urge everyone to test 1 Academy Ruins in there deck, recurring shackles and keg is simply nuts. Also try Impulse, you won't regret it!

I used to played Ruins with Bottle Gnomes in the Board to frustrate the red foes. But I didn't find it consistently enough and didn't want to play a second. I will try it again with Impulse.

For now I change my maindeck like this:
-3 Clique
+2 Chalice
+1 Ruins

-4 Ponder
+4 Impulse

Why are you still playing Morphling? Do you need the untap that often? The Sphinx is the same investment, has the bigger body and constant shroud.

[Gunseng]

I used to played Ruins with Bottle Gnomes in the Board to frustrate the red foes. But I didn't find it consistently enough and didn't want to play a second. I will try it again with Impulse.

For now I change my maindeck like this:
-3 Clique
+2 Chalice
+1 Ruins

-4 Ponder
+4 Impulse

Why are you still playing Morphling? Do you need the untap that often? The Sphinx is the same investment, has the bigger body and constant shroud.

I mainly play Morphling due to nostalgia and because I wasn't really aware of sphinx during my testing. The manainvestment Morphling needs was annying as hell during some games. I think I will test 1 Spinx, 1 Morphling. I want to keep Morpling because he is marginally faster against combo and causes tons of fizzles.

Your changes are looking good, keep me posted about chalice's performance please. Also Ruins is simply a synergy not a core strategy. There are games, where an island would be strictly better, but sometime ruins can randomly win you games. Never play more than 1 though.

[Kagehisa]

Guys, what do you use against Krosan Grip in MUC ? I feel ridiculous when I cannot protect my Back to Basics, Schakles or even Propaganda sometimes... I had hope that the new Jace could filter and make sure that the opponent wouldn't draw his K. Grip but I'll have to wait that someone makes the test for me XD

"Ice Cave" 3UU enchantment

"Whenever a player casts a spell, any other player may pay that spell's mana cost. If a player does, counter the spell. (Mana cost includes color.)"

I was thinking of Ice cave in my sideboard XD since Misty Rainforest (the fetchland ) can get green mana. I think it can work because Ice Cave's ability triggers and can this way counter the Split Second !! But the opponent can use it against me if he can produce U... unless Back To Basics makes its job (lol) and that is for it. I think that B2B+Ice Cave is a strong board position but it is just a guess... and yes, lots of weakness too...

I repeat my question : any real solution (in sideboard ) against K. Grip ?

here's my list that need improve :

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Powder Keg----------- can become EE if I play the fetchlands
4 Propaganda
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Impulse---------------can become Brainstorm with fetchlands
4 Back to Basics
2 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet
1 Vedalken Schackles
4 free slots-------------dunno but can be some Collective Restraint ( see below )
24 Island---------------can become Swamp and Forest ( or bayou) + U/G fetchlands ( and B/U fetchlands to counter Extirpate with Ice Cave?! )

4 Chill
4 Blue Elemental Blast
7 free slots-------------2/3 Ice Cave + Collective Restraint ?

"Collective Restraint" 3U Enchantment

Domain — Creatures can't attack you unless their controller pays Variable Colorless for each creature he or she controls that's attacking you, where X is the number of basic land types among lands you control.

Some Islands and a Bayou and the Collective Restraint is stronger than Popaganda, right ? I need to know quickly !! XD

[Moonlight]

The first enchantment sux ;) believe me..
You don't want to let your arti's get countered.. ever. And blue = best colour in magic.. so your opp will play it most of the time too.
To risky, to expensive (cc5) and to... well.. crappy^^

Second enchantment is a bit better.. but against agro, you want to throw it on board as quickly as possable. 1 turn later then propaganda might be fatal. Will be fatal against atleast gobo's and ichorid when they go nuts.
It sux :(

[Gunseng]

Guys, what do you use against Krosan Grip in MUC ? I feel ridiculous when I cannot protect my Back to Basics, Schakles or even Propaganda sometimes... I had hope that the new Jace could filter and make sure that the opponent wouldn't draw his K. Grip but I'll have to wait that someone makes the test for me XD

(...)

Some Islands and a Bayou and the Collective Restraint is stronger than Popaganda, right ? I need to know quickly !! XD

There is no real answer to grip. The best one is counterbalance and that sucks in MUC. Collective Restraint is crap, because it opens your manabase to hate and is slower that propaganda. You should consider adding Spell Snares to your deck and dropping the Efreet.

[Dazed]

THIS IS FAR FROM ORTHODOX MUC, TAKE A LOOK:

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Memory Lapse
4 Force Spike
3 Spell Snare

4 Meditate
4 Impulse

4 Into the Roil

4 Isochron Scepter

2 Morphling

23 Islands

SB:
3 Back to Basics
3 Powder Keg
4 Propaganda
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Mind Harness

This build is focused in the control of the stack rather than the control of the board. Whith this in mind my draw mechanism is mainly supported by instants like Meditate/Impluse and "control magic" (Sower, Threads of Disloyality, Vedalken Shakles), mass removal (Powder Keg, EE) and traditional disruption (Propaganda, B2B) are replaced by more counters.

The idea is to ensure the game whith a solid counterwall and a hard lock for the lategame. Thats why I am running the Isochron Scepter. Obviously, the best imprints are Memory Lapse (1st) and Into the Roil (2nd, it can draw you some extra cards also).

The creatures that may resolve should be bounced, then countered. This may sound crazy, some of you could say that steal them whith Vedalkan or kill them whith Keg are better options. Since the meta here is not aggro intensive I am testing a different route but I recognize that against something like Zoo powder Keg or Threads of Disloyality are the main weapons.

Regardless of this observations, what do you think of this list?
Thanks.

[Link Ramirez]

THIS IS FAR FROM ORTHODOX MUC, TAKE A LOOK:
...

Regardless of this observations, what do you think of this list?
Thanks.

I took a look. And I think...

I see what you try to do with Memory Lapse, but without the scepter it sucks. Even with the scepter, because green is a common splash, you will see Krosan Grip.
And I wouldn't call Memory Lapse and Force Spike a solid counterwall.

Next in line would be Meditate. MUC has problems with aggro and you plan to give them an extra attack while searching for an answer. Which you don't have preboard. Because I doubt that you can counter everything they throw at you.

This is the beauty of Shakles. You don't need to take care of everything, because you can reuse opposing creatures as blocker. With the same vulnerabilty to artifact hate as Scepter. And it can even handle manlands.

What are the advantages of your build over traditional MUC?
Because your board looks like you plan to fall back to more or less traditional MUC postboard anyway.


Regards, LiRaz

[Dazed]

What are the advantages of your build over traditional MUC?
Because your board looks like you plan to fall back to more or less traditional MUC postboard anyway.


Regards, LiRaz

Thanks for that response. Sometimes I believe I´m a victim of my metagame. Here aggro is not quite popular. Combo and Control dominate. Even thresh or other type of aggro-control are rarely played. Thresh is the hard match up (after well suited aggro goblins or merfolks that, while rare, are allways there), but their light threat density make it not (THAT) terrible to face if you resolve a scepter.

My sideboard is there to transform the deck into something that can handle whith aggro and other much more traditional decks in standard metagames of the format.

[Jason]

To the individuals playing fetchlands, is the following card from Worldwake a potential "Fact or Fiction" #5 and #6?

Mysteries of the Deep
4u
Instant
Draw two cards.
Landfall - If you had a land enter the battlefield under your control this turn, draw three cards instead.

I know I was wanting an instant-speed draw 3 for 5. Inspiration isn't enough card advantage and Opportunity felt too expensive at 6 mana. Fact or Fiction usually ends up drawing 3 cards, so it feels almost like FoF (worse, obviously, but FoF is broken).

Also, is the new Jace also playable while running fetchlands?

Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2uu
Planeswalker - Jace
[+2]: Look at the top card of target player's library. You may put that card on the bottom of that player's library.
[0]: Draw three cards, then put two cards from your hand on top of your library in any order.
[-1]: Return target creature to its owner's hand.
[-12]: Exile all cards from target player's library, then that player shuffles his or her hand into his or her library.
Loyalty: 3

The [-1] isn't irrelevant, as it can buy us a turn to find a Shackles or Sower for that pesky creature or it allows us to straight up counter the annoyance when they replay it. 4cmc for a card that doesn't actually win us the game is annoying (mostly because the [+2] is poop), but the [0] Brainstorm and [-1] Unsummon seem very intriguing at the least. The [0] is NOT the same as SDT, as it actually gives us card advantage. SDT does not. I like it, but I don't know if it would go into a decklist as more than a one-of. Also, I'm not sure if it's better than the current Jace. The versatility in pseudo-removal makes me think that it is.

A friend of mine and I are currently working on a fetchland build that splashes red for Fire//Ice and allows REB and Firespout out of the board. So far, it has done very well against aggro decks (Goblins scoops to Fire//Ice, by the way and Merfolk lies down to REB and Firespout). As a person who has been strongly against fetchlands due to Stifle raping the deck, I feel the need for Fire//Ice and Firespout is there. The new Jace and Mysteries of the Deep are just added bonuses I believe can help the deck get to the next level.

[Joon]

In the last time I really enjoy playing Captain America MUC. This is the version I came up with:

04 Scalding Tarn
04 Flooded Strand
01 Volcanic Island
01 Tundra
01 Mountain
01 Plains
12 Island

01 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
01 Call the Skybreaker
01 New Jace Guy

04 Force of Will
04 Counterspell
04 Spell Snare

04 Swords to Plowshares
03 Vedalken Shackles
02 Engineered Explosives

04 Brainstorm
04 Accumulated Knowledge
02 Fact or Fiction
02 Sensei's Divining Top

SB
04 Firespout
04 Spell Pierce
03 Blood Moon
02 Ajani Goldmane
02 Sower of Temptation

It somehow crushes Aggro strategies postboard thanks to Firespout, has 12 Counters an amazing source of CA and CQ and in general I love to play it. The manabase is weaker than in more traditional MUC builds as you run 8 fetchies along with 2 nonbasics, but if you play smart (or don't have bad luck, e.g. have an opener with one or even worse two of the nonbasics against a deck packing Wasteland) it isn't much of an issue.

I played Fire/Ice before, mainly to save Swords for Big Threats and don't "waste" them on Noble Hierarch/Confidant/Lackey. But more often than not I only pitched it to Force of Will or tapped a big attacker with it - that is not bad, but it does too little then in my opinion.

Top is very good in this deck but only as a 2-off. You can't cast it before Turn 4 (Turn 1 if you otP sometimes) because you want Snare/CS mana open (wether you have them or not), but after Turn 4 it enables landdrops every round, lets you find key cards like Shackles more often and digs for Winconditions.

I cut Morphling entirely, I think Sphinx is better. The "look at a card" thing should not be forgotten as it helps sometimes especially when you pack 7-8 fetchies. Call the Skybreaker is a recursive wincondition which you can afford to discard in the earlier game which is quite nice. You are also not forced to chose the worse FoF pile because he has one of your finishers in it. 5/5 flying Token end the Game pretty quick and if your opponent swords that token you just build a new one. Jace is rarely used to win the game, but the option to end the match without using the red zone can be crucial in rare cases. Most of the time he just brainstorms around.

The Sideboard is supposed to handle the two things this deck hates: Pure Aggro and Recursion. While Firespout and Ajani take care of the aggressive strategies, Moon stops the Recursion (Stronghold, Academy, cutting the loam player of green). Sower is good in general as removal is sided out against us.
Ajani is good in Germany as most players tend to choose Sligh > Zoo and a protected Ajani simply wins that matchup.

Spell Pierce is better than REB in this sideboard as it also shines against Enchantress (popular here), Combo (the big German tournament with 270 players had 25 Storm Combo decks) and randomess (Staxx for example). REB is only better against decks where the Vindicate effect matters (Merfolk and decks packing War Monk), but Pierce is better against a larger field of decks.

EDIT: Don't know if this Mysteries of the Deep are worth it, got to test it though

[reale]

My list with CotV MD and "more to stack than board control". Focused in survival in the first turns and trying to win heavy aggro (the reason to Quicksand). I found no room for propaganda in this list, because i really wanna counter. Spell Snare have problems with Chalice @ 1, but it's a good counter and may be precious before the chalice and BTW, i use only 2 MD. Maybe 3 sometimes. Some bounce, draw and 15 counters do their job. More counters and more board control and yard hate on the SB, that is too meta dependent to post it here. Not to win a World Championship but its good. I'm studying Academy Ruins that I saw on memnarch's list on post #1333 page 67. Needle is a must but, remove what card?

// Lands
18 Island
4 Quicksand


// Creatures
2 Sphinx of Jwar Isle

// Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare
3 Mana Leak

4 Impulse
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Repeal

// Others
2 Chalice of the Void
3 Back to Basics
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Powder Keg


Comments are welcome!

[Jason]

@reale:

Quicksand is pretty worthless against many aggro decks. Tarmogoyf and Wild Nacatl are bigger. The only time it is good is when it could hit a Dark Confidant (which doesn't need to attack for the opponent to win the game) or if you are playing goblins. It is ok against merfolk, but it will only buy you a couple turns at best. Then they will lord your face off.

Chalice of the Void in the main deck is not that exciting because you rarely know what your opponent is playing game 1. Obviously, if they are playing combo (and you live to set it at 1 or guessed correctly by setting it at 0) or you are playing tempo threshold, you have made a wise decision. In general, however, Chalice is going to be so-so. It is terrible against any Stax variant. It is too slow against zoo, merfolk and goblins. CBTop decks will either counter it, kill it with Pridemage, kill it with Explosives or kill it with KGrip. Of course, they can wait because it will really only shut off Brainstorm (and maybe Spell Snare) anyway...it's not like always countering their Swords to Plowshares is relevant in this match-up. It is just too slow against the majority of the field and doesn't improve a majority of the match-ups.

Fact or Fiction should definitely be a 4-of unless you have some other way of generating card advantage. The way this deck usually wins is by surviving long enough to cast Fact or Fiction and then overwhelming the opponent with bombs (Shackles, Back to Basics, random fat win condition) while still having protection for our win conditions.

I've never been a huge fan of Repeal, as I have found it a dead card many games. The permanents are either too expensive for me to bounce or my opponent has no permanents. Obviously, it will be good against opponent's Engineered Explosives set at 3, forcing them to blow it up on their turn, allowing us to replay Back to Basics or Vedalken Shackles. I don't see it as a consistent "get that creature out of my face" kind of card.

Academy Ruins is amazing. Recurring Powder Keg or allowing yourself to lose an artifact bomb to Fact or Fiction in order to best sculpt your hand is a feature I would never want to lose. It also plays the role of Strip Mine for any landstill player's Academy Ruins. I have even won games in control match-ups by not decking thanks to Academy Ruins. I will not cut this card from my 60, as it is too powerful.

[Link Ramirez]

To the individuals playing fetchlands, is the following card from Worldwake a potential "Fact or Fiction" #5 and #6?

Mysteries of the Deep
4u
Instant
Draw two cards.
Landfall - If you had a land enter the battlefield under your control this turn, draw three cards instead.

I know I was wanting an instant-speed draw 3 for 5. Inspiration isn't enough card advantage and Opportunity felt too expensive at 6 mana. Fact or Fiction usually ends up drawing 3 cards, so it feels almost like FoF (worse, obviously, but FoF is broken).


But it costs :4::u:. I've also seen this card on MTGSalvation but dismissed it as too expensive. I don't understand why you want a draw 3 for 5.
I think if you are playing fetchlands anyway, Brainstorm is superior. It doesn't net you cards, but 4 Fact or Fiction should be enough. And you plan to use a Jace.
Do you really need more draw?

Regards, LiRaz

[Jason]

But it costs :4::u:. I've also seen this card on MTGSalvation but dismissed it as too expensive. I don't understand why you want a draw 3 for 5.
I think if you are playing fetchlands anyway, Brainstorm is superior. It doesn't net you cards, but 4 Fact or Fiction should be enough. And you plan to use a Jace.
Do you really need more draw?

Regards, LiRaz

I was actually looking at something along the lines of 4x Brainstorm (obviously), 4x Fact or Fiction (obviously), and 1-2x Mysteries of the Deep. The new Jace is intriguing but I don't think it is hot, mostly because of burn. The old Jace doesn't protect itself, so I'm also leery of it. I want a card that can all but fulfill the duty of Fact or Fiction #5 and/or #6. Ancestral Visions is good in the early game to give you that turn 5 edge, but it is a terrible top-deck compared to Fact or Fiction in the mid-to-late game. I want the cards now, not 4 turns from now. Looking at it, this card could fulfill the same role as Fact or Fiction. The 5cmc seems high but knowing how this deck plays, 5 mana isn't that terrible for a card that is going to swing the game in your favor. Yes, it is worse than Fact or Fiction, but I think it is the closest thing we have to it.

[Tao]

If you want to spend 5 Mana for 3 cards, whx not play Intuition / AK? Seems close to strictly better. It gives you at least the same cards for the same mana, much more flexibility and a good chance to draw much more.

[KillemallCFH]

If you want to spend 5 Mana for 3 cards, whx not play Intuition / AK? Seems close to strictly better. It gives you at least the same cards for the same mana, much more flexibility and a good chance to draw much more.Intiution/AK takes up 7-8 slots, whereas Mysteries of the Deep takes up 1-2. If we were talking about a primary draw engine, Intuition/AK would be better, but as a supplement to FoF, it takes up way too many slots.

[Link Ramirez]

...
Yes, it is worse than Fact or Fiction, but I think it is the closest thing we have to it.

OK, but do you really need it. At least in my experience, 4 FoF are enough (and perhaps a Jace for the control mirror) with 4 Ponder or Impulse to get there.
Don't you run into having too much draw and not enough business?
I'm by the way curious about your decklist. Do you mind to share it?

[Illissius]

If you're playing fetchlands, you should use Tops. Then use the Tops to find more Facts or Fiction.

[Tea]

Thirst for Knowledge is probably the best supplement to FoF followed by Sensei's Divining Top and Impulse. But this is only the case if there are some artefacts that can be discarded.
Furthermore, I really think this kind of deck cannot live without a boardsweeper: N. Disk, WoG or P. Deed. Obviously, MUC can only run N. Disk.
Thus I think that TfK along with N. Disk could be a good take on MUC.
But I need to find room for N. Disk. However, most of the cards play a certain role: early-game, Board-control, win-con, CA. As I don't want to weaken any of those roles, I think putting BtB into the SB is the logical conclusion.
Besides, SB BtB is much more versatile than MD BtB. That way, it makes sense to run some Mishra's Factory, so you get a clock for the combo-matchup; it can also block Nimble Mongoose, Wild Nacatl, etc. strengthening the much needed early game defense.
Another card that becomes worthwile is Academy Ruins, since BtB is replaced by an artefact (N. Disk), that can be recurred by that land.

Why do I think that TfK is better than SDT and Impulse in this deck?
I run quite a lot of cards that can create card-disadvantage in the lategame: 3 Force Spike, 3 Echoing Truth, the high land-count. TfK can negate that.
In the early-game, I often want to discard a Shackles/N. Disk, as the manacurve of the deck is very high (4 FoF, 3 N. Disk, 3 Shackles, 2 win-cons). So I often get actual card-advanatge from TfK.
Thanks to Academy Ruins, I don't have to worry about finding the artefacts later on, when I need them. If I discard a shackles early game, I still have virtually 3 shackles reamaing in the deck.

I'm a big fan of bounce, as they are very efficient. I think bounce is the right call. The strong draw-engine (4 FoF, 2 TfK, 4 BS) makes up for the card-disadvantage.

I have one flex slot; at the moment it's filled by Into the Roil.


Lands: 24
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
13 Island

Draw: 10
4 Brainstorm
2 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Fact or Fiction

Counter/Bounce: 18
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
3 Force Spike
3 Echoing Truth
1 Into the Roil

Artefacts: 6
3 Nevinyrral's Disk
3 Vedalken Shackles

win-cons: 2
1 Meloku, the Clouded Mirror
1 Call the Skybreaker

SB:
3 Back to Basics
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Tormod's Crypt

[Gunseng]

Puh, so many things to say, where to start?


(...)

A friend of mine and I are currently working on a fetchland build that splashes red for Fire//Ice and allows REB and Firespout out of the board. So far, it has done very well against aggro decks (Goblins scoops to Fire//Ice, by the way and Merfolk lies down to REB and Firespout). As a person who has been strongly against fetchlands due to Stifle raping the deck, I feel the need for Fire//Ice and Firespout is there. The new Jace and Mysteries of the Deep are just added bonuses I believe can help the deck get to the next level.

While I agree that splashing increase the matchup against aggro decks, I am unsure whether the lifeloss and the increased vulnerability to hate are worth it. I suppose testing is necessary.


@reale:
(...)
Chalice of the Void in the main deck is not that exciting because you rarely know what your opponent is playing game 1. Obviously, if they are playing combo (and you live to set it at 1 or guessed correctly by setting it at 0) or you are playing tempo threshold, you have made a wise decision. In general, however, Chalice is going to be so-so. It is terrible against any Stax variant. It is too slow against zoo, merfolk and goblins. CBTop decks will either counter it, kill it with Pridemage, kill it with Explosives or kill it with KGrip. Of course, they can wait because it will really only shut off Brainstorm (and maybe Spell Snare) anyway...it's not like always countering their Swords to Plowshares is relevant in this match-up. It is just too slow against the majority of the field and doesn't improve a majority of the match-ups.
(...)


I disagree. In my testing chalice has been extremely helpful. It shuts down a lot of annoying cards vs. treshhold and top (moongoos, top, brainstorm, ponder, swords, bolt etc.) and makes it harder for zoo to burn you or smash your face in with multiple nacatls/lynx. It also improves random matchups like burn and helps a lot against storm combo. Also each grip thrown at chalice can't hit B2B :wink:


But it costs :4::u:. I've also seen this card on MTGSalvation but dismissed it as too expensive. I don't understand why you want a draw 3 for 5.
I think if you are playing fetchlands anyway, Brainstorm is superior. It doesn't net you cards, but 4 Fact or Fiction should be enough. And you plan to use a Jace.
Do you really need more draw?

Regards, LiRaz

I agree, I am not impressed by mysteries and would rather play ancestral vision if I needed more draw. Btw. Link didn't you also attend German Magic 1? If so, what was your finish?

Thats my current list with 2 Chalice MD:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
23 [8E] Island (3)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
1 [US] Morphling
1 [ZEN] Sphinx of Jwar Isle

// Spells
1 [EVE] Call the Skybreaker
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [US] Back to Basics
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [UD] Powder Keg
4 [VI] Impulse
4 [MM] Counterspell
4 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 2 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth

[Jason]

OK, but do you really need it. At least in my experience, 4 FoF are enough (and perhaps a Jace for the control mirror) with 4 Ponder or Impulse to get there.
Don't you run into having too much draw and not enough business?
I'm by the way curious about your decklist. Do you mind to share it?

Actually, my current fetchland list is running 24 lands with 4x Brainstorm and 4x Fact or Fiction and I'm not drawing enough card draw (read: not finding Fact or Fiction). I was previously running a 24-land list without fetchlands featuring 4x Impulse (or 4x Think Twice depending on how I felt on the given day) and 4x Fact or Fiction. When running Think Twice, I couldn't consistently hit land drops and when running Impulse, I came up with the same situation I'm in with Brainstorm - Fact or Fiction must poof out of my deck. I want "Fact or Fiction" #5 and #6.

@Tea, I've tried Thirst for Knowledge but it hasn't been consistent unless I upped the artifact count to 10-12 and even then, it was only ok.

@Gunseng, In my testing, Ancestral Visions is just too slow. I want the cards immediately. 5 mana for a draw three isn't that terrible, seeing as Fact or Fiction is 4 mana for what usually ends up being a draw three.

I'm not going to post my fetchlands list now; it isn't quite to my liking yet. The fetchland list plays very similar to my previous list, which was:

23 Snow-Covered Island
1 Academy Ruins

1 Call the Skybreaker
1 Rainbow Efreet
2 Sower of Temptation

4 Impulse
4 Fact or Fiction

4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Mana Leak
1 Cryptic Command

3 Back to Basics

3 Powder Keg
3 Vedalken Shackles

Sideboard
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Disrupt
2 Propaganda


If you're playing fetchlands, you should use Tops. Then use the Tops to find more Facts or Fiction.

I'll try that, actually. I'm not too lucky with just Brainstorm/Impulse in finding FoF, but it seems as though adding 2x Top might do the job.


If you want to spend 5 Mana for 3 cards, whx not play Intuition / AK? Seems close to strictly better. It gives you at least the same cards for the same mana, much more flexibility and a good chance to draw much more.

No. Intuition+AK is poop compared to Fact or Fiction. Not to mention I'm trying to only make an additional 2 card investment at most to try and best replicate Fact or Fiction.



I disagree. In my testing chalice has been extremely helpful. It shuts down a lot of annoying cards vs. treshhold and top (moongoos, top, brainstorm, ponder, swords, bolt etc.) and makes it harder for zoo to burn you or smash your face in with multiple nacatls/lynx. It also improves random matchups like burn and helps a lot against storm combo. Also each grip thrown at chalice can't hit B2B :wink:


Question: you're holding a hand that looks like 3 Island, 1 Counterspell, 1 Chalice of the Void, 1 Spell Snare, 1 Impulse; it's game 1, you're on the play. You play an Island and pass. Your opponent drops a turn 1 Wild Nacatl. Do you play Chalice of the Void on turn 2? What if they drop a turn 1 Aether Vial? Does that change anything either?

It seems to me Chalice of the Void is a dead card in nearly every game 1 when you do not have a way to stop your opponent's turn 1. I know you are only running 2x main deck, so the odds of seeing it in the opening hand aren't too high, but these situations obviously come up. You can't stop the opponent's turn 1 every time. For the more common situations, you won't see it until much later in the game. To me, it seems random to drop a turn 7 Chalice@1. Sure, you may shut down 5-6 "relevant" spells, assuming he or she hasn't Pondered the deck away or Bolted your face in response, but a lot of the time it is simply a nuisance your opponent will play around (aka already have Sensei's Divining Top or Aether Vial or any random 1-drop creature in play). The times when the opponent can't play around it, are you sure CotV is winning the game? Are you sure you didn't win that on the shoulders of B2B or Shackles? Look closely and you'll see those are the true MVPs in nearly every game you win. Obviously, against combo (burn included), Chalice is amazing. Against threshold, it is ok-good depending on when it hits. Against everything else, it is less than exciting.

[Gunseng]

(...)

@Gunseng, In my testing, Ancestral Visions is just too slow. I want the cards immediately. 5 mana for a draw three isn't that terrible, seeing as Fact or Fiction is 4 mana for what usually ends up being a draw three.

I agree that Ancestral Vision is slow as hell. I am however not sold on Mysteries, because without a fetchland to pop its a inspiration for 5

(...)

Question: you're holding a hand that looks like 3 Island, 1 Counterspell, 1 Chalice of the Void, 1 Spell Snare, 1 Impulse; it's game 1, you're on the play. You play an Island and pass. Your opponent drops a turn 1 Wild Nacatl. Do you play Chalice of the Void on turn 2? What if they drop a turn 1 Aether Vial? Does that change anything either?

Tough one. With a FoW in hand, I would drop chalice in a heartbeat. In the given case, I will take my chances and drop it either on turn 3 or 4 depending on my draw. With Vial in play, I would rather use Impulse EOT to find a Powder Keg.

It seems to me Chalice of the Void is a dead card in nearly every game 1 when you do not have a way to stop your opponent's turn 1. I know you are only running 2x main deck, so the odds of seeing it in the opening hand aren't too high, but these situations obviously come up. You can't stop the opponent's turn 1 every time.

Chalice is not supposed to stop an opponents turn 1. It is supposed to relieve me from countering certain cards and to reduce the enemy's amount of card filtering/advantage, while only affecting one card in my deck.

For the more common situations, you won't see it until much later in the game. To me, it seems random to drop a turn 7 Chalice@1. Sure, you may shut down 5-6 "relevant" spells, assuming he or she hasn't Pondered the deck away or Bolted your face in response, but a lot of the time it is simply a nuisance your opponent will play around (aka already have Sensei's Divining Top or Aether Vial or any random 1-drop creature in play). The times when the opponent can't play around it, are you sure CotV is winning the game?

Chalice is not a hardlock against non combo decks. Also I am not winning the game on CotV, I am not playing stacks. Chalice is an additional boon which makes my life easier. The slots filled by CotV used to be Propaganda and CotV is such much better maindeck against most decks. Even a late CotV can be useful, if we are both low on cards. Ripping a Bolt from the top is not that hot with a CotV @ 1 in play.

(...)

[Link Ramirez]

I disagree. In my testing chalice has been extremely helpful. It shuts down a lot of annoying cards vs. treshhold and top (moongoos, top, brainstorm, ponder, swords, bolt etc.) and makes it harder for zoo to burn you or smash your face in with multiple nacatls/lynx. It also improves random matchups like burn and helps a lot against storm combo. Also each grip thrown at chalice can't hit B2B :wink:


This. Sometimes I miss Ponder though.



Btw. Link didn't you also attend German Magic 1? If so, what was your finish?


I planed to, but I was on a warmer continent at that time :cool:

[UberNewHacks]

Nevermind

[Jason]

Mysteries of the Deep only draws 3 with Landfall. So unless you activate a fetch on their turn you only get 2. You can draw 4 if you play a fetchland then crack it for a second landfall but there is very little difference from Tidings if you do it during your turn which is obviously not a card we consider. So there is no real reason to play Mysteries of the Deep.

Exactly why am I not activating a fetchland on my opponent's turn? I only crack fetches when I need to, which usually means not on my turn. I don't see how this argument makes any sense.

[Pneumatiker]

You can draw 4 if you play a fetchland then crack it for a second landfall [...]


Mysteries of the Deep
Instant
Draw two cards.
Landfall - If you had a land enter the battlefield under your control this turn, draw three cards instead.

You cannot suck more then three cards out of Mysteries of the Deep. Unfortunately it doesn't say: "Landfall - Draw an additional card."

[UberNewHacks]

Oh my bad. Well then it's worse than I thought. Since when was 3 cards instant speed good for blue at 5 mana?

[choon10]

I have been trying to roll around an MUC deck for a while now and although some cards may appear obsolete I still always felt they had a nice kick in the deck.. This deck is merely designed to stall long enough with counters until the scepter + silence comes down to dramatically lessen the troubles (exp for instants) which d counters ought to be enough for.. As you can see there is no main means of game-winners, instead it is mainly meant to come from shackling in something n using an opponents killer as my killer..

18 Islands
2 Faerie Conclaves

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Standstill

4 Counterspell
4 Arcane Denial
4 Force of Will
2 Rewind
2 Forbid

4 Isochron Scepter
3 Silence
3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Powder Keg

SB:
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Powder Keg
3 Back to Basics
3 Chill
2 Blue Elemental Blast

I was hoping any of you guys could lend me some good insights into possible changes of this deck.. I notice that FoF is rather popular (if not necessary) in most MUC but d high casting cost is just something I'm not indulging at all.. The cheap draw spells r not to gain card advantage but merely to search out n obtain shackles when necessary, or to find the scepter + silence combo, or to look for the keg.. I notice that it may not be as strong as FoF but id rather have the free mana to counter than to blow in on possible 2-3 card advantage n have to deal with another threat..

I am definitely still open for any kind of input.. Thx!

[Link Ramirez]

18 Islands
2 Faerie Conclaves

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Standstill

4 Counterspell
4 Arcane Denial
4 Force of Will
2 Rewind
2 Forbid

4 Isochron Scepter
3 Silence
3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Powder Keg

SB:
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Powder Keg
3 Back to Basics
3 Chill
2 Blue Elemental Blast


I'm not a big fan of the Arcane Denial draw engine. I think Intuition/AK is way better as a two card draw combo :wink:
Seriously, this should be Spell Snare or anything that is not Arcane Denial.

Then, Scepter/Silence does not make sense to me. If you want to play with Scepter (I advise strongly against this) you should splash white and play Orim's Chant. And 4 of it.

Standstill with only two manlands and without Wasteland will not work. For example against Merfolk or Landstill.

You really need an own wincon (I don't count the Conclaves). Sphinx of Jwar Isle for example. Not every opponent gives you Shackle-targets. But every deck has ways to remove Shackles.

20 lands (18 Islands) is not enough, I suggest at least 23. You need every landdrop to support Shackles. And to play Fact or Fiction ASAP. Which by the way should really replace Standstill.

Brainstorm without Fetchlands is not really awesome.

You have no out for a resolved Enchantment or Planeswalker.

Well, so much for now.
Regards, LiRaz.

[Gunseng]

I'm not a big fan of the Arcane Denial draw engine. I think Intuition/AK is way better as a two card draw combo :wink:
Seriously, this should be Spell Snare or anything that is not Arcane Denial.

Then, Scepter/Silence does not make sense to me. If you want to play with Scepter (I advise strongly against this) you should splash white and play Orim's Chant. And 4 of it.

Standstill with only two manlands and without Wasteland will not work. For example against Merfolk or Landstill.

You really need an own wincon (I don't count the Conclaves). Sphinx of Jwar Isle for example. Not every opponent gives you Shackle-targets. But every deck has ways to remove Shackles.

20 lands (18 Islands) is not enough, I suggest at least 23. You need every landdrop to support Shackles. And to play Fact or Fiction ASAP. Which by the way should really replace Standstill.

Brainstorm without Fetchlands is not really awesome.

You have no out for a resolved Enchantment or Planeswalker.

Well, so much for now.
Regards, LiRaz.

I agree with everything except one thing: Ak/Intuition may be better than Arcane Denial, but it sill sucks ;). In my opinion, it takes away to much deck space for to little card advantage.

[Link Ramirez]

I agree with everything except one thing: Ak/Intuition may be better than Arcane Denial, but it sill sucks ;). In my opinion, it takes away to much deck space for to little card advantage.

True. To clearify this, I didn't want to suggest Inuition/AK. I play 4 Impulse (or 4 Ponder) and 4 Fact or Fiction.

[choon10]

So you guys both feel that with ponders + FoF.. they're good enough for significant card advantage?
I was planning on removing the faerie conclaves for islands n running 2 morphlings, also adding on
2 nevinyrral's disks and a 4th silence..

Would these changes suffice? I'm still very uncomfortable with using FoF (mostly due to its high mana
cost n just tapping into 5 cards).. I wonder if there's smth I'm missing out on.. Thx guys

[1rakete]

Please post your new list. Its still not clear to me if you removed standstill. 4 Ponder and 4 FoF are a fine draw engine.

[schorchi]

Hello there!

I want to play MUC keeping the B2B engine alive, because I that makes this decktype unique to me.
My list uses Intuition as a multi Tutor, but take look first:

Main:
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare --> not sure about this ones, but I want to play 12 counters
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition --> multitutor
4 Accumulated Knowledge --> works fine with Intuition
3 Firespout --> strong removal
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Back to Basics
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Call the Skybreaker
1 Spitting Image --> in case the board provides better creatures then the Skybreaker token for the actual situation
/38
Lands:
10 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
/22
//60

Side:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Mindbreak Trap --> the slot is for something against combo decks, the Trap maybe isn't the right thing. Any suggestions?
3 Pithing Needle
//15

So, as you can see the retrace cards are the winoptions of the deck (besides shackles). They can easily be found via Intuition and can be played more then ones, thanks to retrace. All other business spells (like B2B, Fspout, EE,...) can be found with Intuition too, because I play at least 3 copies of them.

What do you think?

[Zythe]

So you guys both feel that with ponders + FoF.. they're good enough for significant card advantage?
I was planning on removing the faerie conclaves for islands n running 2 morphlings, also adding on
2 nevinyrral's disks and a 4th silence..

Would these changes suffice? I'm still very uncomfortable with using FoF (mostly due to its high mana
cost n just tapping into 5 cards).. I wonder if there's smth I'm missing out on.. Thx guys

FoF is probably one of the best ways to get CA in this deck. Don't think of it as tapping out to get 5 cards, because the fact that it's an instant is very relevant. For starters, instant speed draw 2-3 cards for 4 mana is pretty damn good as it is. The main reason this card is fantastic though is because you get to dig 5 cards deep, acting as sort of a super impulse. Your opponent just cast a must counter spell and you have no counters in hand? FoF and dig for FoW. Instant speed card draw is just the nuts.

I also agree that your deck needs a win-con and if you want to do stuff with scepter, orim's chant is the way to go. (You can pay kicker if you scepter it)

[mmmetaphor]

Hello there!

I want to play MUC keeping the B2B engine alive, because I that makes this decktype unique to me.
My list uses Intuition as a multi Tutor, but take look first:

Main:
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare --> not sure about this ones, but I want to play 12 counters
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition --> multitutor
4 Accumulated Knowledge --> works fine with Intuition
3 Firespout --> strong removal
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Back to Basics
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Call the Skybreaker
1 Spitting Image --> in case the board provides better creatures then the Skybreaker token for the actual situation
/38
Lands:
10 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
/22
//60

Side:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Mindbreak Trap --> the slot is for something against combo decks, the Trap maybe isn't the right thing. Any suggestions?
3 Pithing Needle
//15

So, as you can see the retrace cards are the winoptions of the deck (besides shackles). They can easily be found via Intuition and can be played more then ones, thanks to retrace. All other business spells (like B2B, Fspout, EE,...) can be found with Intuition too, because I play at least 3 copies of them.

What do you think?

I really like your build, very interesting and strong choices.

Vs combo you could play chalice of the void but then I'd consider swapping out the main deck spell snare for something with cc 2, maybe daze? You could also try arcane lab vs combo but I'm not sure if it would be too slow..

I know I'm asking for it by floating this out there but I've never been that big a fan of brainstorm, it feels conditional to me (needing a shuffler to make it effective). I prefer impulse to it or even Sensei's Top. Obviously brainstorm is superior when a shuffle effect is readily available and vs discard to protect key cards but overall I've always liked impulse better.

Love the use of Call the Skybreaker and spitting Image.

[choon10]

this is all that i've figured to change up so far..

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare
2 Rewind
1 Forbid
4 Brainstorm
4 FoF
2 Ponder
3 Vedalken Shackles
4 Isochron Scepter
4 Orim's Chant
2 Nevinyrral's Disk
2 Morphling
19 Island
1 Academy Ruins

Any better u think? Thx for all ur input.. any is welcome

[Gunseng]

this is all that i've figured to change up so far..

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare
2 Rewind
1 Forbid
4 Brainstorm
4 FoF
2 Ponder
3 Vedalken Shackles
4 Isochron Scepter
4 Orim's Chant
2 Nevinyrral's Disk
2 Morphling
19 Island
1 Academy Ruins

Any better u think? Thx for all ur input.. any is welcome

I am still not sold on Sceptre/Chant. Also imo Disk is too slow against agressive decks. 20 lands is too few to fuel shackles and Brainstorm sucks without fetches. Imo a more conservative list would be better:

// Lands
23 [8E] Island (3)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Creatures
1 [US] Morphling
1 [ZEN] Sphinx of Jwar Isle

// Spells
1 [EVE] Call the Skybreaker
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [US] Back to Basics
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [UD] Powder Keg
4 [VI] Impulse
4 [MM] Counterspell
4 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [MR] Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 2 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce


Hello there!

I want to play MUC keeping the B2B engine alive, because I that makes this decktype unique to me.
My list uses Intuition as a multi Tutor, but take look first:

Main:
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare --> not sure about this ones, but I want to play 12 counters
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition --> multitutor
4 Accumulated Knowledge --> works fine with Intuition
3 Firespout --> strong removal
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Back to Basics
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Call the Skybreaker
1 Spitting Image --> in case the board provides better creatures then the Skybreaker token for the actual situation
/38
Lands:
10 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
/22
//60

Side:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Mindbreak Trap --> the slot is for something against combo decks, the Trap maybe isn't the right thing. Any suggestions?
3 Pithing Needle
//15

So, as you can see the retrace cards are the winoptions of the deck (besides shackles). They can easily be found via Intuition and can be played more then ones, thanks to retrace. All other business spells (like B2B, Fspout, EE,...) can be found with Intuition too, because I play at least 3 copies of them.

What do you think?

Interesting Decklist. I especially like Spitting Image :). I dislike AK though and would rather play Fact of Fiction. Cutting AK probably means that 4 Intuition is too much, maybe 2 suffice. How are your matchups against zoo/goblins/Ctresh? Is the lifeloss of fetches an issue? How are Shackles performing with so few Islands?

[schorchi]

I think Ctresh is a good matchup (very impressive is EE in this matchup)
Zoo is always a bit too fast if you are not in the position to cast Firespout. EE are good, but they can't kill CC1 creatures and Tarmogoyf at once.
Goblins is a similar Problem.

In the meanwhile I changed the Intuition plan to a solid Fact or Fiction + AC draw engine. It works fine but take a look:

Main:
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Spell Snare
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Cryptic Command
3 Firespout
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Back to Basics
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Call the Skybreaker
/38

Lands:
11 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
/22
//60

Side:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Krosan Grip
//15

Pillar is much better against Ad Nauseam Storm and Krosan Grip could do better than Needle while maindecking EE. Cryptic Command does a nice job, anyway it is one of the testslots.
Now I can control the game more than before, but Shackles and Skybreaker are the only winoptions and I can't search for them without Intuition.
Thou I drawed some games due to the lack of winoptions.
By the way, the Vedalken Shackles are nearly good as before. You can fetch for islands if you have one Mountain, or if you don't have the EE or Spout in hand. All in all shackles can deal with only one non-island on your board, just drop another the next turn.

Any thoughts?

[Mikeleroi]

I just discovered this card "Overburden (http://magiccards.info/pr/es/39.html)", blue enchantment from prophecy, and I was wondering if could have an spot on this deck...

[Jason]

I just discovered this card "Overburden (http://magiccards.info/pr/es/39.html)", blue enchantment from prophecy, and I was wondering if could have an spot on this deck...

Seems horrible if the opponent is under Back to Basics

[schorchi]

Hi all, I need your help:

Currently I have two different Versions of MUC, /rg splash or /bw splash. Even after some testphases I don't which one is the better choice for an mixed meta. Here are the lists:

MUC/bw

Main:
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Engineered Explosives
3 Spell Snare
3 Cunning Wish
3 Back to Basics
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Morphling (or other win-options)
/38

Lands:
12 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
/22

Side:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dominate
1 Extirpate
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Stifle
1 Spell Snare
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Fact or Fiction
//15

_______________________________________________________________

MUC/rg

Main:
Main:
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Spell Snare
3 Back to Basics
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Firespout
3 Regrowth
3 Intuition
1 Call the Skybreaker
//38

Lands:
12 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
//22

Side:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
//15


Pro's and Cont's:

The rg splash provides Firespout and Regrowth. Firespout is strong with an red mana source and if you got green even better.
Regrowth is good for it's own (recure EE, Firespout, fetchland,...) but much better with Accumulated K. and Intuition. You can generate massive card advandage with this set up, give it a try.
Splashing rg not only for EE means that you need a Mountain or Forest for Firespout or Regrowth and thats a problem that happens sometimes.

The bw splash hasn't the problem, because the b or w cards are only wish targets ans some of them are some kind of redundant (e.g. Swords to Plowshares, Diabolic Edict, Dominate). Here the mana curve is a bit higher and the deck itself is slower due to its draw engine via Fact or Fiction. Fact is good without any doubts, but it isn't fast. Intuition + accu + regrowth is a bit more flexible but costs more slots. Therefor you can get fetch Call the Skybreaker via Intuition.

What is your opinion?

[FredMaster]

I just discovered this card "Overburden (http://magiccards.info/pr/es/39.html)", blue enchantment from prophecy, and I was wondering if could have an spot on this deck...

Seems horrible
Edited for the truth.

[e_hawk77]

I believe the Urg version is better than the Uwb version. My reasoning is u get to play a real sideboard and firespout is so good to right now. It improves the matchups that are bad for the deck and doesn't hinder the matchups that are good all that much. I also think that skybreaker is better than the creatures.

Now I have some questions. How good is piller? Is it better than chalice? And the last question is how good is back to basics in the meta right now. Where I play there are a bunch of merfolk and some goblins, which it isnt good against. But there is some threshold and 42 land decks which it is. But even the threshing decks play like 5 basics because of waste and b2b and bloodmoon.

[schorchi]

Thanks for the answer,

B2B is a critical card: Sometimes it changes the game in your favour and sometimes it isn't good enough, but it is stronger in the first game (obvously, because you opponents can't be sure if you are playing B2B or not and don' consider that in their opening hand). So I went 3 copies, 2 could be allright, but I want to fetch them with Intuition.

I went to play Pillar for the following reasons:
- it isn't just another counterspell that the combo-mage has to discard or to "chant"
- it comes turn 2
- they have to bounce / destroy it AND this does at least 2 damage which means 2 cards less from Ad Nauseam
most often it does much more damage to them because they have to cast Mystical Tutor or Burning Wish in order to get the bounce spell

The plan is just to wait with a bunch of counters or some EE for 0 in play. If your hand is good enough just drop 1 Call the Skybreaker and than they have to do something. The combo matches are very tricky, but pillar seams to better than chalice, because MUC has a to slow clock. Pillar does some damage at least (sometimes it helps so much that Nauseam fizzles)

[Jon Stewart]

Given how weak MUC is in the current meta, I thought this idea seems uber interesting...


Blue is also worth considering for a Combo/Control route. Countertop, Stiflenaught, Painter's Servant + enough cantrips to find missing pieces + free countermagic + Wastelands... not classic MUC but so full of backbreaking plays and so good at protecting them that it doesn't even need a draw engine.

Add Back to Basics for disruption and the deck is basically a goldmine of combos and countermagic to protect them.

[Moonlight]

So that would be something like this..?

3 Dreadnought
2 Painter's servant

4 stifle
3 grindstone
3 counterbalance
4 top
3 back to basics
4 brainstorm
1 ponder
4 fow
2 counterspell
3 spell snare

7 fetch
4 wasteland
13 island

I doubt if this is even worth testing :P

[Jon Stewart]

Lol yeah, that's a fairly good example. I actually think it looks good and has potential.

I think the deck plays one too many combos.

I would cut painters servant/grindstone and add counters (spell pierce, dispel, daze) and 2 trickbind and 4 dreadnought

Basically a monoblue dreadstill deck that plays back to basics since it can. That seems more viable than MUC IMHO.

[e_hawk77]

There is a mono blue stifle naught deck. The main problem with the deck is that it is very weak to krosan grip. I like the idea of a slow control blue because thresh is really weak to these type of decks and if we can tune it to beat the aggressive decks i think this deck can come back. I also have been looking at the resent legacy results and see that the storm decks are good but have a problem with counterbalance/blue decks and since there are so many in my meta i think this deck is a very strong meta choice but i guess time will tell. I will be playing on thursday and I will post a list and report on friday.

[Iranon]

@ Moonlight: The version I tested was *slightly* more aggressive:

Mana:
9 Island
4 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
1 Academy Ruins
4 Chrome Mox

Stuff that finds Stuff:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Stuff that counters Stuff:
4 Stifle
4 Counterbalance
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

Stuff that wins in a terrible janky way:
3 Phyrexian Dreadnaught
3 Painter's Servant
3 Grindstone

Turn 3-4 goldfish + some protection was quite common, and the chance of getting either a

[Iranon]

The version I had fun with was a little more aggressive and probably doesn't belong here...

Mana:
9 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
4 Chrome Mox

Stuff that finds stuff:
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Stuff that counters stuff:
4 Stifle
4 Counterbalance
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

Stuff that wins in a terrible janky way:
3 Phyrexian Dreadnaught
3 Painter's Servant
3 Grindstone


For a stronger emphasis on punishing fragile mana bases I considered -1 Top, Ponder, Counterbalance for 1 Dreadnaught and 2 Trickbinds. B2B didn't seem to fit.
Interaction of Grindstone and Counterbalance is actually pretty damn sweet, especially with an Academy Ruins out and opponents never really know what they should be worried about because the pilot doesn't know either.

Siding out whatever killed them in the last game for more respectable control tools is also good fun.

[Tychoides]

Did you all see the MUC deck that was featured in the GP Madrid coverage? I thought it was pretty interesting:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpmad10/welcome#11

Here's the deck if you don't want to click through:
1 Academy Ruins
20 Island
1 Riptide Laboratory
22 lands

2 Sower of Temptation
2 Spire Golem
4 creatures

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Counterspell
2 Cryptic Command
3 Energy Field
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Negate
3 Oblivion Stone
3 Repeal
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Vedalken Shackles
35 other spells

Sideboard
4 Back to Basics
2 Masticore
1 Razormane Masticore
2 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Wipe Away

I like the Energy Field as a temporary survival solution, actually. Oblivion Stone seems a bit costly for a deck with no acceleration though.

[UberNewHacks]

Yeah I think I will try Energy Field out. However, I think that, after testing them out in my deck, that even with only Islands the synergy between Brainstorm, Sphinx of Jwar Isle, and fetchlands, is so good that they really need to be included.

[obituary 95]

is jace relly that good in this deck .and does it really need to be in here

[Jason]

is jace relly that good in this deck .and does it really need to be in here

Since I opened a Japanese Worldwake pack with Jace, I'm going to try him out. If we have control of the game, the +2 ability could be a solid way to ensure the opponent stays behind by filtering away the good cards. Playing from behind or trying to stabililize, Jace doesn't seem as good as Sphinx or Call the Skybreaker. Then again, with Energy Field, Jace can be a good way to gain card advantage while keeping Energy Field in play. I'm not sold on Energy Field, though. Seems to cutesy

[schorchi]

I think Jace isn't needed and isn't good enough in MUC for the following reasons:

First of all you are tapping 4 mana and the only thing he does to the board is bouncing a creature for -1. After that he has just 2 points left and that means he is near to death. The "0" ability is only strong with shuffle-effects (see Brainstorm) and if you can supply the constant 3 points on him (he will die to almost any creature attacking or e.g. a Lightning Bolt). The "+2" ability is ok, but their is no guarantee that the card your opponent draws isn't a card you don't want. You are just changing the probability a bit, because one card goes on the buttom, but that's to weak for 4 mana sorcery speed.
Moreover in most cases he won't stay long in play, because MUC doesn't block that often. Also with Energy Field they might just attack your Jace and than he is gone an takes your Energy Field with him. So a bad choice in my eyes.

In decks that have some creatures to protect him and maybe playing many shuffle-effects he might be a good choice. For a comparison take Elspeth. She comes into play and directly gets 5 points, which is enough for some attacks. And also she brings a 1/1 token with her every round. In other words Elspeth protects herself and is also a decent win condition. Jace alone isn't strong enough, he is more the kind of card which needs some other cards to be a strong choice.
No Jace for me in MUC.

[Jason]

Has anyone tried shroud turtle from Worldwake yet? I've found Calcite Snapper to be quite useful keeping annoying 3/3 s at bay (Wild Nacatl, Nimble Mongoose). It can even trade with Woolly Thoctar and occasionally Tarmogoyf

Plus, shroud turtle gives us a clock against combo and other control decks like landstill, something we didn't really have.

[Kagehisa]

I play Back to Basics MD. I don't like when my opponent plays a fetchland and puts a basic land on battlefield. Stifle ? Trickbind ? Squelch ? Interdict ? Do you know Whim of Volrath ? XD

[Jason]

I play Back to Basics MD. I don't like when my opponent plays a fetchland and puts a basic land on battlefield. Stifle ? Trickbind ? Squelch ? Interdict ? Do you know Whim of Volrath ? XD

Shadow of Doubt is better than Squelch and Interdict at "Stifling" fetchlands (mostly because it also stops Natural Order and Conflux) and yet Shadow of Doubt is terrible. If you want to run a Stifle effect, run Stifle. It's not worth it, though. Most decks don't run more than 5 basic lands and can't consistently hit all their colors without non-basics. Back to Basics is good because it forces the opponent to fetch basics, slowing down the deck to our speed. If the player doesn't, then we win through B2B.

[Link Ramirez]

Has anyone tried shroud turtle from Worldwake yet? I've found Calcite Snapper to be quite useful keeping annoying 3/3 s at bay (Wild Nacatl, Nimble Mongoose). It can even trade with Woolly Thoctar and occasionally Tarmogoyf

Plus, shroud turtle gives us a clock against combo and other control decks like landstill, something we didn't really have.

Nice find. I will test it. Something like 2 Sphinx and 3 Turtles.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

So, I've always been on the look-out for a second Legacy deck that I can build cheaply IRL. I play mono-blue Merfolk usually, and for this reason I'm attracted to building a combo or control deck, since I already own an aggro-control one, and I like to mix it up.

I have nearly all the "money cards" for this deck (FoW, b2b, -- the stuff I would have to buy is mostly in the $5-10 range or so (like Vedalken Shackles, Powder Keg, Fact or Fiction). I would probably run a Ugr version, with maindeck B2B, because I already own 3x Scalding Tarn and 3x Misty Rainforest, and I think Firespout is pretty strong these days.

So, here's my question though (and please don't take this as troll-bait)... Is this deck actually strong enough these days for it to make sense for me to start buying/ trading for the rest of the staples that I'm missing? I understand that it's a very skill-dependent deck, and you need very good knowledge of the metagame to do well with it. But what I'm asking is this: Does this deck still have a future, or is it on its way out of the meta somewhat?

I ask this as someone who likes the deck a lot, and wants to believe it can still do well, so don't get me wrong...

[Jason]

So, I've always been on the look-out for a second Legacy deck that I can build cheaply IRL. I play mono-blue Merfolk usually, and for this reason I'm attracted to building a combo or control deck, since I already own an aggro-control one, and I like to mix it up.

I have nearly all the "money cards" for this deck (FoW, b2b, -- the stuff I would have to buy is mostly in the $5-10 range or so (like Vedalken Shackles, Powder Keg, Fact or Fiction). I would probably run a Ugr version, with maindeck B2B, because I already own 3x Scalding Tarn and 3x Misty Rainforest, and I think Firespout is pretty strong these days.

So, here's my question though (and please don't take this as troll-bait)... Is this deck actually strong enough these days for it to make sense for me to start buying/ trading for the rest of the staples that I'm missing? I understand that it's a very skill-dependent deck, and you need very good knowledge of the metagame to do well with it. But what I'm asking is this: Does this deck still have a future, or is it on its way out of the meta somewhat?

I ask this as someone who likes the deck a lot, and wants to believe it can still do well, so don't get me wrong...

The deck is very skill-intensive, but it's very difficult to play in today's meta. It has a decent match-up against Counterbalance decks and other control decks; the problem is decks like Merfolk and Zoo are running around with combo decks. If we tune the deck to specifically hate on Merfolk and Zoo, we are going to weaken the combo match-up and vice-versa. The deck isn't overly fun for a lot of people to play, which is partially the reason the deck doesn't see any major evolution. I'm working on a small red splash version because Firespout is indeed that good, but I'm finding it difficult to find a balance to give me winnable matches against combo and aggro decks. I think shroud turtle is versatile enough to help out matches in both archetypes; saying all that, I'm not sure if I'm playing this deck at GP: Columbus. I don't know if I trust it to be good enough like I did last year at GP: Chicago and went 5-4... I should have done better but I punted three matches.

[Plague Sliver]

I would agree with Jason.

Given the current state of the meta, it's tough to pilot this deck. I really enjoy MUC, and try to play it when I can, but I can't say with any conviction that it's Tier 1. I don't think B2B does enough against aggro/Vial decks or combo.

I started running this deck because of budget constraints. Now that I am able to acquire/borrow a mana base to support other colors I start to see a clear evolution of this deck into other decks. To me, MUC has evolved into Landstill and other control variants. I'm also extremely attached to Brainstorm, and feel that it is a worthy inclusion in the deck's 75. What I'm trying to say is - when a splash is attempted with this archetype you really start to question why you'd run this over Supreme Blue, Countertop, Landstill, and so on.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I would agree with Jason.

Given the current state of the meta, it's tough to pilot this deck. I really enjoy MUC, and try to play it when I can, but I can't say with any conviction that it's Tier 1. I don't think B2B does enough against aggro/Vial decks or combo.

I started running this deck because of budget constraints. Now that I am able to acquire/borrow a mana base to support other colors I start to see a clear evolution of this deck into other decks. To me, MUC has evolved into Landstill and other control variants. I'm also extremely attached to Brainstorm, and feel that it is a worthy inclusion in the deck's 75. What I'm trying to say is - when a splash is attempted with this archetype you really start to question why you'd run this over Supreme Blue, Countertop, Landstill, and so on.

Yeah, I kind of suspect that both of y'all are correct on this issue. The main reason I would try to build it over something else is indeed budgetary constraints. It looks attractive in part because I already own a lot of the cards for it. That, and I've always kind of wanted to take it upon myself to play a pure control deck at a tournament.

I do wonder one thing though: Knowing nothing of this deck's history myself (beyond a really limited point), I just thought to ask if anyone has ever tried working in Counter/Top to this deck, since it's one thing that's relatively strong against both Zoo, Combo, (and to a much lesser extent) Merfolk. I know this deck's curve tends to run on the high end, and we don't usually play any fetch-lands (which make Top good)... But I was wondering if y'all think some bastardized version of MUC and Supreme Blue would work? (Basically using Counter/Top in a MUC shell, along with some fetch-lands and one basic land of each appropriate color (red and possibly also green) to support Firespout, Brainstorm, and possibly also Engineered Explosives and a couple sideboard cards (Krosan Grip or whatever...))

Am I just having pipe dreams here?

[Clark Kant]

Has anyone tried shroud turtle from Worldwake yet? I've found Calcite Snapper to be quite useful keeping annoying 3/3 s at bay (Wild Nacatl, Nimble Mongoose). It can even trade with Woolly Thoctar and occasionally Tarmogoyf

Plus, shroud turtle gives us a clock against combo and other control decks like landstill, something we didn't really have.

That's a really awesome find. It gives you great clock too. It's almost like you're getting a 4/4 shroud creature for 3 mana. Compare that to getting a 4/5 nonshroud tarmogoyf for two mana.

The card seems really useful actually. You never have to debate about whether it's worth it to FoW a second turn Wild Nacatl again.

If you play 4 of these and 4 Propaganda, you're guarenteed to be able to play one or the other on your third turn. And follow up with a Shackles or Sower on the next turn in order to steal the game against aggro.

The one thing is that it's probably and worthwhile and neccesary to play a few fetchlands to be able to swap Calcite Snapper's power and toughness during your opponent's turn.

This is the build of the deck that I think is pretty much flawless.

X23 Island
X1 Academy Ruins

X4 Force of Will
X4 Counterspell
X2 Spell Snare

X4 Ancestral Vision
X4 Fact or Fiction

X3 Powder Keg
X3 Back to Basics
X3 Calcite Snapper

X1 Call of the Skybreaker

X4 Propaganda
X4 Vedalken Shackles


Is there ANYTHING you would change about the above list? Should I play some fetchlands to be able to toggle Calcite Snapper's power and toughness during their turn? I love it because it makes the decision making versus aggro and aggro control decks very easy. No more agonizing over whether or not you should counter a certain threat.

Any threat with 4 or more power (or any threat that doubles as a disenchant effect), you counter. Anything with 3 power or less, you let through and take care of later using Calcite Snapper, Powder Keg, Propaganda or Veldalken Shackles.

[Jason]

Is there ANYTHING you would change about the above list? Should I play some fetchlands to be able to toggle Calcite Snapper's power and toughness during their turn? I love it because it makes the decision making versus aggro and aggro control decks very easy. No more agonizing over whether or not you should counter a certain threat.

Any threat with 4 or more power (or any threat that doubles as a disenchant effect), you counter. Anything with 3 power or less, you let through and take care of later using Calcite Snapper, Powder Keg, Propaganda or Veldalken Shackles.

Brainstorm and fetchlands instead of AV. Being able to block and switch shroud turtle's power to be able to kill a Woolly Thoctar or potentially kill a 3/4 Tarmogoyf or an exalted Wild Nacatl seems good to me. It also gives you more options during the attack phase to potentially throw your opponent off.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Brainstorm and fetchlands instead of AV. Being able to block and switch shroud turtle's power to be able to kill a Woolly Thoctar or potentially kill a 3/4 Tarmogoyf or an exalted Wild Nacatl seems good to me. It also gives you more options during the attack phase to potentially throw your opponent off.

I agree with Brainstorms and fetch-lands, in order to be able to pull shenanigans with Shroud Turtle.

Also, if you'd already be using fetch-lands, would it make sense to try to include 1 Mountain and 2-3 Firespout somewhere in your 75 cards? (Although I have no clue what you should cut for Firespout if you did want to use it in the maindeck...) Also, in a lightly splashed version, I think Engineered Explosives could be pretty sweet, since you have Academy recursion.

...Just some ideas.

[Clark Kant]

Good tips. But honestly, I freaking love Ancestral Visions.

It generates absurd card advantage with very little mana investment. I could never see myself cutting it.

The thing about a deck like this is, there's pretty much never any cards that youre unhappy to be drawing. All the cards in the deck are worth having. So putting back two cards into the library is not something that I'm a fan of.

As for splashing for Firespout, that seems unneccesary.

Between...

X4 Propaganda
X3 Calcite Snapper
X1 Call of the Skybreaker
X3 Powder Keg
X4 Vedalken Shackles

The aggro matchup doesn't scare me at all.

And on top of that, Firespout is only really useful against Swarm Aggro decks and Ichorid. It can't take out Tarmogoyf. And it's just a one time solution. It's not a permanent that stays on the board. And playing basics for it weakens consistency (you may not be able to cast Counterspell on turn 2) and weakens Shackles. Meanwhile, playing nonbasics for it weakens Back to Basics.

The answers to aggro that I'm playing are a lot more versatile and more importantly, permanent. I honestly don't see what I would cut to make room for Firespout. And I really amn't convinced that EE is better than Powder Keg. It's faster, but it's more mana intensive and you can never hit anything with a cc above 2 with it either. Even hitting 2cc cards is rather inconsistent and hit or miss.

[Gunseng]

Calcite Snapper? Seriously? Maybe I am missing something, but this seems like a terrible card. In my opinion it stalls too little for the 3 mana investment, especially compared to Shackles. Anybody here willing to share his playtesting results?

[Kagehisa]

Wanna bigger ? there is Plumeveil for UUU (or WWW or other combinaisons of those colors) 4/4 flash, flying and defender but not shroud :( anyway, when u cast it, it should already hit an attacking creature except if the opponent keeps a removal that can deal 4 or more or simply destroy or exil... i dunno if Snapper is better... as a defense. After all plumeveil can survive when it blocks a mangouse etc where Snapper cannot even with 2 fetchs (magic2010 rules) Really shroud matters but well just test it. And share of course.

[Clark Kant]

MUC can't afford to counter every single 3/3 and 2/3 Zoo and what not lay down. It needs to save it's counters for Pridemage, Goyf and Thoctor if they play that card.

Propaganda only buys you a couple of turns. You can only play 4 Shackles max, so you won't see them every game. And even if you did, they won't come online till turn 4 at the earliest. You need something else to supplement them.

Shroud matters. And just as importantly the fact that it can attack for 4 damage matters.

It is extremely rare to get a low casting cost creature that is both an effective attacker and defender, and also is immune to removal (virtual card advantage). The closest you get to something like that is Morphling, but that takes five mana to cast, and even more mana to get any of those functions. Morphling comes too late to slow down a deck like Zoo. Caclite Snapper combined with Propaganda, (and you countering the only creature they play that has more than 4 power (Goyf)) gives you a solid chance against Zoo. You buy enough time that find and cast Shackles with enough islands for it to start raping your opponent's creature base. On the otherhand, Zoo has a dozen different ways to kill Plumiveil. If you wanted to compare it to something for the aggro matchup, Wall of Denial is a better comparison. But again, Wall of Denial requires a splash and also is a dead draw in the combo and for the most part in the control matchups because it has defender.

Calcite Snapper on the other hand works as a clock against combo and control decks. A clock that their removal can't take care off. And it works as a blocker against aggro decks to buy you a few turns until you build up enough Islands for Shackles to actually be useful.

Plumiveil can only defend. So it's a dead draw against control and combo decks. And it can be hit by removal, which every aggro deck in the format plays. So it's pretty dead in the aggro matchup too.

TLDR Version.

For a creature to make the cut in MUC...

it needs to be blue,

it needs to be a decent blocker,

it needs to have a low cc because aggro decks have really speeded up,

it really needs to have Shroud (because everyone and their mother is playing StP/Path and you want those cards to be dead draws against you).

Nothing else fits. That this guy can also work as a decent attacker in the combo and control matchups is the icing on the cake.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I think the most immediate things MUC needs to address are what to do vs. Merfolk (since they island-walk, don't get hurt much by B2B, and Vial through counters) and what to do vs. Qasali Pridemage.

[Clark Kant]

Pridemage, you pretty much have to counter. If you are unable to stop Pridemage from hitting the board, and thus he's able to take out Propaganda, or worse yet Shackles or B2Bs, Calcite Snapper can buy you some time to find another Propaganda/Shackles/B2Bs.

There isn't too much you can do about Merfolk preboard. You can try to Keg away Vial, and counter (or Shackles) Lord of Atlantis. If you manage to do that, then Calcite Snapper, Propaganda, and Shackles all help you immensely in that matchup. If you fail, then you will likely lose, nothing maindeck will help you. Postboard, there is that blue creature that causes opponents to bounce all opponent's blue creatures back to their hand. That might help.

Your other poor matchups Zoo, Goblins, Bant, stuff like that, are also all matchups that are helped by cards like Calcite Snapper supplementing your anti-creature package.

Even against combo, Calcite Snapper gives you a faster clock.

[Kagehisa]

Any threat with 4 or more power (or any threat that doubles as a disenchant effect), you counter. Anything with 3 power or less, you let through and take care of later using Calcite Snapper, Powder Keg, Propaganda or Veldalken Shackles.[/B]

Hm... Meekstone ? Creatures with power 3 or greater don't untap during their controllers' untap steps. This small artifact for one mana is cute :) but do you need it ?

[Jason]

I think the most immediate things MUC needs to address are what to do vs. Merfolk (since they island-walk, don't get hurt much by B2B, and Vial through counters) and what to do vs. Qasali Pridemage.

I now have a small splash of red for Fire//Ice in the main deck which helps the Merfolk match slightly (still highly unfavorable), which also allows me REBs and Firespout out of the board to get to a winnable position. Hopefully, with all that, I can get there.

Against Qasali Pridemage, it is a must-counter but I also have Fire to shut it down if it lands early game. If I don't have a way to counter Pridemage or have Fire in hand, then I kept a very weak hand.

For the record, Llawan, Cephalid Empress may seem hilarious but Merfolk still has Aether Vial and can thus get around the not casting blue creatures clause. That is terribad.

[Gunseng]

I remain unconvinced that Calcite Snapper adds to the deck, but I will playtest him as soon as I got the time. Personally I like to run 2 Chalice MD which help alot against Zoo, ANT and Treshhold. Personally I consider 3 Shackles, Chalice, 3 Keg and 4 Propaganda after boarding enough against Zoo, but it really depends on countering Pridemage. Grip is a pain in this matchup. Against Combo I'd rather board in Clique instead of Calcite Snapper, because I can play it at eot and disrupt their hand.

[reale]

I know that it was already discussed posts ago, but i'm not convinced yet. Isn't Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir a soft lock good for combo and other blues??

I see him like a good card for mid/late game. You counter, he can't counter back. You play Shak, B2B, etc, he counter, you counter back, thats it.

Combo is likely dead, isn't? Someone tested it?

Thanks and see ya!

[Clark Kant]

Teferi is a good card, but I don't think this is the right meta for him. Every deck plays removal these days, StP, Path, Snuff Out you name it.

You don't want to play any creatures that can be killed be this removal. Yes you can counter the removal, but why would you want to use up your countermagic on stopping removal when you could instead play threats that are immune to said removal, and make all those cards your opponents play dead draws. If you play creatures, you want them to either recur, or better yet you want them to have Shroud.

You want to make all the removal your opponents draw dead because it gives you virtual card advantage and also means your win conditions are resilient. This is the same reason I'm not a fan of Sower of Temptation in this deck.

Thats just my perspective anyways. But maybe I'm wrong. If you are willing to play threats that can be removed though. I would supplement Teferi with stuff like Sower of Temptation, Vendilion Clique and Spellstutter Sprite. I think that deck could do awesome, and Teferi gets better the more creatures you play.

So what do you guys think?

If the deck played....

4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Sower of Temptation
1 Teferi

Funnily enough, Teferi seems to be the weakest card in that whole set.I could see myself cutting him completely. The others all basically counter one of your opponent's threats.

Can the deck still be called MUC, or is the creature count too high?

[schorchi]

What do you think about this one:

Main:
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Back to Basics
4 Calcite Snapper
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Fact or Fiction
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Decree of Justice
/38

Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Plains
14 Island
/22

Side:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Spell Pierce
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pithing Needle
/15

It is some kind of MUC/w with the new shroud turtle. He fits in the suit very well and I'm glad that he is a CC3 permanent, due to Engineered Explosives are most often good for 1 or 2. Back to Basics is the main reason for running this build. In my meta it is very strong. If I get paired against merfolks or goblins, B2B goes out for the Meddling Mages and also Needle comes in maybe for Fact or Fiction. Meddling Mage is primary against combo, but he is also a creature that staals the game in our favour.
Some comments?

[Zinch]

I like a lot your deck, but put a pair of blue fetches instead of 2 islands: the brainstorms need at least 6 fetchlands IMO. I was thinking in a similar version of MUC ( with a little white splash) and was considering Sanctum Plowbeast as an additional way to find a plains. What do you think of this?

Also, I recommend you to play at least 2 more "finishers". Against decks without creatures, the shackles don't help in killing your opponent and the snappers are more a defensive creature than anything else... Ok, they have shroud, but if your opponent has a single creature, you cannot attack for 4 without losing it.

[schorchi]

I think Sanctum Plowbeast isn't good enough. I would rather play Eternal Dragon, but he costs WW and this isn't palyable without Tundra's.

Shuffle effects for Brainstorm:
More fetchlands seem not to be necessary, because besides the 4 Flooded Strand I got 4 Impulse and 3 Fact or Fiction which filter the cards on the top of your library. Fetchlands also cause loss of life, okay thats not a good reason for not running them, but sometimes it can cost you I game. With this deck I won often on 2 or even 1 lifepoint.

More winoptions may be possible (Morphling?) but with Impulse and Fact or Fiction I'm able to find the Decree until turn 7 or 8.
Also against deck without creatures Shackles might be bad of course, but than Calcite Snapper is even better. Just drop 2 of them and search for some land or better a fetchland and they will beat your opponent down very quickly.

[Arsenal]

In my opinion, Sphinx of Jwar Isle has surpassed Morphling as a MUC finisher. If I was looking for win conditions, I'd probably run some combination of:

Sphinx of Jwar Isle
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Call the Skybreaker
Sower of Temptation

[1rakete]

I really highly suggest playing Jace, the Mindsculptor. Card Advantage, Control and Winoption alltogether - awesome :) Try it out!

[Tao]

I completely agree with 1rakete. The new Jace is exactly what this deck needs. Jace is much better than Fact or Fiction.

I also think the deck gains more from the W Splash than it loses. It makes Swords and Engineered Explosives playable and the Fetchlands make Brainstorm playable. Stifle is not so big in the Meta anymore that I would see any reason except for Budget to not play both Swords to Plowshares and Neo Jace.

With a W-Splash (8 Fecthes + 1-2 Tunrda) and a couple of new Jaces the deck is certainly no more budget, but I think it is clearly the best version.

[Doks]

Jace is much better than Fact or Fiction.

If you are able to reliably protect the new Jace, I absolutely agree with you. But because of "if..." I would'nt want to rely on it as my only source of real CA, so splitting between Jace and FoF seems the way to go. 2/3 might work in a rough list like that:

// Mana

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Tundra
1 Plains
12 Island

// Kill

1 Sphinx of Jwar Isle

// Countermagic

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare

// Removal

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Vedalken Shackles

// Draw

4 Brainstorm
3 Fact or Fiction
2 Sensei's Divining Top (currently trying, quite solid so far)

// Utility, Multifunctional

2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
2 Cryptic Command (with EE@2 max you really need an out to CC3+ and random stuff like Iona, opp's Planeswalkers etc.)
1 Decree of Justice

+1 flex slot depending on playstyle (another basic land?).

Problem might be that CC4 is heavily used (my first try would be to replace C. Command with other bounce [Repeal?], but I'd miss the extra hard counters...) or cutting FoF completely (or down to 2), but you probably have to find another source of real CA that is immune to direct damage / too many creatures.

[Julian23]

Fun fact -4 Islands +4 Mishra's Factory and you're actually just Landstill without Standstill.

[otherside]

Here's my list

3 Trinket Mage
3 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Fact or Fiction

3 Counterbalance

3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Aether Spellbomb

1 Academy Ruins
4 Wasteland
18 Island

SB

2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Propaganda
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 HydroBlast
1 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Pithing Needle
1 Echoing Truth
1 Wipe Away

[obituary 95]

there is a new card on the visual spolier that could be good for the deck

surrakar spellblade

creature-surrakar
whenever you cast a instant or sorcery spell you may put a counter on surrakar spellblade
whenever surrakar spellblade deals combat damage to a player draw x cards where x is the number of charge counters

[Doks]

I don't think it will be played.

It's just another one of these CMC 3 beaters (Phid, Augury Adept) that draw gets when they connect with the exception of making multiple draws per hit happen. Nothing special if you ask me.

[Arsenal]

I remain unconvinced that Calcite Snapper adds to the deck, but I will playtest him as soon as I got the time. Personally I like to run 2 Chalice MD which help alot against Zoo, ANT and Treshhold. Personally I consider 3 Shackles, Chalice, 3 Keg and 4 Propaganda after boarding enough against Zoo, but it really depends on countering Pridemage. Grip is a pain in this matchup. Against Combo I'd rather board in Clique instead of Calcite Snapper, because I can play it at eot and disrupt their hand.

For builds running any number of Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Calcite Snapper is better than Propaganda. For those builds not running Planeswalkers, I suppose it'd make more sense to keep Propaganda in for your mid-game stall/defense, although it's arguable that Enchantments are getting easier to remove than Shroud Creatures nowadays.

[Rancorous Fool]

I X-1ed vestal with MUC. My list is posted earlier in this thread. I made a play mistake to lose in the top8. I should have mainphased a fact or fiction and instead i tried to out aggro a mana screwed pro bant player while i flooded out. (kept a 3 land hand, drew 7 straight). If i had facted i would have seen 4 lands and cryptic. Next card down was shackles. Shackles> probant. (as long as teeg is in play)

I tested Jace, its lower impact than fact or fiction. The its only real relevance is the diversity of its abilities. IE: 2UU suspend 6 win the game. 2UU unsummon 3 times. or become phyrexian arena. Rarely in testing did the right usage change based on board state. Without synergies such as fetches or counterbalances it is just strong not amazing. Also note I play 4 keg 4 clique 4 shackles. I deal with permanents fairly effectively already.


Edit- snapper is the same CC as Vendy Clique. The two are in different leagues. Play clique x4 if that isnt enough, play moat.

[Arsenal]

I X-1ed vestal with MUC. My list is posted earlier in this thread. I made a play mistake to lose in the top8. I should have mainphased a fact or fiction and instead i tried to out aggro a mana screwed pro bant player while i flooded out. (kept a 3 land hand, drew 7 straight). If i had facted i would have seen 4 lands and cryptic. Next card down was shackles. Shackles> probant. (as long as teeg is in play)

I tested Jace, its lower impact than fact or fiction. The its only real relevance is the diversity of its abilities. IE: 2UU suspend 6 win the game. 2UU unsummon 3 times. or become phyrexian arena. Rarely in testing did the right usage change based on board state. Without synergies such as fetches or counterbalances it is just strong not amazing. Also note I play 4 keg 4 clique 4 shackles. I deal with permanents fairly effectively already.


Edit- snapper is the same CC as Vendy Clique. The two are in different leagues. Play clique x4 if that isnt enough, play moat.

But your final build doesn't run Jace, right? I mean, Clique is awesome when not running Jace, but we're looking for semi-permanent ways to protect Jace until you're able to draw into Shackles, get the Keg up to the appropriate counters, etc all while Jace is slowly Fatesealing the opponent out of the game.

[Rancorous Fool]

My list is much further back than expected, for reference:

The Ex- Girlfriend
4 ancestral vision
4 spell snare
4 counterspell
4 powder keg
4 shackles
4 vendy clique
4 cryptic
4 fact or fiction
4 force of will
1 guile
20 island
3 factory

B2B wasn't good enough, its in the board. same with Propaganda.

When playing this deck you are struggling for control of the game. Tempo matters, almost nothing else. You will win every topdeck war and every long game. Jace did not do a lot to control the board it only creates inevitability. Don't get me wrong I play the heck out of the card in other decks. but, its not good enough without having some synergy with the rest of the deck's strategy. The only play I miss is unsummoning my own clique and or factory to give it vigilance.

4x vision 4x fact or fiction. Never complain about missing anything. Win every control match.

[Arsenal]

Interesting list. Personally, I'd never run less than 4 B2B mainboard, but that's just me I suppose. Also, how did you find Cryptic Command as a 4-of?

[Rancorous Fool]

Excluding turn 1 and 2. i cannot think of a time i do not want a cryptic command. It might as well be krosan grip versus counterbalance. Counter bounce is tremendous against any zoo style deck. Fog + cantrip twice can often be enough to race progenitus.

[Kagehisa]

Gravitational Shift

Rare

3UU

Enchantment

Creatures with flying get +2/+0.

Creatures without flying get -2/-0.

Hey a blue Moat !! XD

[Pernacious_D]

Should one play Man Lands in this deck these days?

[Jason]

Should one play Man Lands in this deck these days?

No. They can't protect themselves

[serendib]

hi guys. I play MUC since since 2004 in Italy. just muc (and recently also faeris stompy).
I tried heaps of version of the deck. E.G.[Mono U, with white splash (just for StP main deck with both ptopaganda & B2B), with chalice of the void...]

The best version of the deck is the MONO U permament-MUC to my view. defenetly! because white splash helps only for the match-up we are already good aginst.
- Calice-muc is week because it's too slow in the first turns... and cc1 drops are less problem than cc2 drops.
- countertop muc just sucks, believe me. (I can explain all the reasons if someone would like)

there's a card that some players do not use but she is the only reason to play muc now-a-days in a competitive way: BACK TO BASICS.

MUC is not superior to anyone deck played around in this times. I mean I cannot say: "yeah, I beat zoo. no problem" because control decks can lose to anyone.
We make the difference thanks to the personal game-plan & skill, being able to be play in a different way according to the opponent's deck.

All my muc decks always had this Layout (I would advice)

@ 22-23-24 mana sources (depends on the drawing engine)

@ 7-8 drawers or manipulating cards

@ 11-12 counters

@ 3 winning conditions

@ 14-16 board control cards

@ 0-3 bouncers (personally I consider only cryptic command & jace. all the other bouncers are useless because they don't give advantage in at least 2 turns time or card-advantage)

- let's consider the counterspells area:

4 FoW + 4 Counterspell + 3/4 spell snare are the wright choice (daze sucks, force spike is no longer strong, mana leak no sense because we have counterspell)

# MANA AREA: no-non basic lands. If you want to play brainstorm (BS), then play 5/6 fetches. but I usually like just islands because I don't fell need of BS and because sometimes when we win, we are very low of life points (e.g vs zoo).
no wasteland. no reason. we cannot lose a land drop and we have Back to basics for opponent's lands.

# DRAWERS:

the choice depends on if you feel need to manipulate or just card advantage (BS, ponder, impulse don't give card advantage. sensei's top gives dis-advantage).
For sure every muc needs 3-4 FACT OR FICTION because it's a bomb. no matter if you would draw 2 cards only sometimes because you have digged for 5!
the possible choice are to my view 2 and they depends on the metagame:
a) 3 impulse + 4 Fact of fiction (FoF)
b) 4 ancestral vision (AV) + 4 Fact of fiction (might be 3 if you play also 3 cryptic command)
I personally prefere (a) a lot. Because impulse + FoF digs deeply in your deck. really deep.
(b) is terribly slow even if it provides heaps of cards in you hand (but topdecking AV in mid-late game sucks quite a lot)
I would advice AV + FoF If you expect lots of black based decks running hymn to tourach, duress... but they are not a lot nowadays.

# BOARD CONTROL:

3-4 Back to basics (I suggest 4 because it's a winning card, no metter if one is useless in your hand because it makes you win)
4 powder keg _ only way to destroy things of this deck. defenetly 4.
3-4 vedalken shackles
0 or 4 Propaganda.
and here discussions begin. Most of players who have few experience of the deck usually say it's useless. I never played without 4 (no reson to run 3). the reasons are the following:
- this card is extremely sinergic with B2B.
- B2B + Propaganda is winning conditions for heaps of match ups (zoo, goblin, threshold, ichorid, faeries, elves, belcher, loam, eva green, Landstill... should I go on ?!)
how many basic lands tier decks run? very very few. no one expect B2B nowadays. a really good play is turn 3 propaganda, turn 4 B2B = lock for at least 2 turns. in those turns we can find a second propaganda or a vedalken shackles.
I think It is perfect for nowadays turnaments-breakdown.

# WINNING CONDITIONS:

chose the one you prefere. but they need to satisfy the following points:
- they can protect themselves
- they can be tempo-card (that is to say they also need to be able to protect you if you need)
they do not need to too be fast, we are control players.
I personally use:
2 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet
Yes, combat rules have changed, but I don't think something better has been printed.
do you think Sphinx of Jwar Isle is the new Morphling? Sphinx of Jwar Isle sucks because it doesn't untap and most of times can't face an attacking tarmo and it is as big as tombstalker. I played it in one turnament and I lost a game because of a tombstalker and a tarmo. Morphling would have face both. It sucks. stop. Yes, it doesn't require mana. But is that a problem?
I use rainbow efreet as second winning conditions because it doesn't die to anything. Especially it doesn't die to all the things that can kill Morphling (edict, innocent blood, pox, wrath of god, pericious deed...)
I think I won as much games thanks to Rainbow Efreet as for Morphling.
we are brain players because we play muc. don't need brainless winning conditions.

SIDEBOARD:
we need cards ONLY to face those decks we are in serious trouble against without sideboard cards. If we can't win neither with sideboard. don't use sideboard against those match and just hope not to find them.
personally I build my sideboard only against those decks (but no space for everyone, I decide which not according to what I expect in a turnament)
- enchantress
- ant
- merfolk
- progenitus-bant (beatable also only with the main, but they are so popular that something more can be interesting)
- survival
- burn
(remember that you can put in your side some creatures because opponents tend to side-out Sword to Plowshares in g2 if they are intelligent)

that's my deck:

23/24 island

2 morphling
1 rainbow efreet

3 impulse
4 fact or fiction

4 force of will
4 counterspell
3/4 spell snare

4 back to basics
4 propaganda
4 powder keg
3/4 vedalken shakles

sideboard:
3/4 chalice of the void (Vs ant: chalice @ ZERO + B2B = GAME)
3 hibernation (bant & progenitus)
0-3 aura flux
2/3 pithing needle
0-3 tormod's crypt/relic of progenitus
2/3 Llawan, Cephalid Empress (merfolk & progenitus)
0-3 seasinger (bant sides out swords to plowshares for krosan grip, so they have no solutions for seasinger g2)

Obviously the 0-3 or 3/4 depends on the metageme expected...

I usually do not use some strong cards because I don't have room for them because my game-plan is based on permanent-locks.
If somebody doesn't want to play propaganda. I would advice:
- 4 propaganda - 1 B2B - 3 impulse - 1 FoF - 1 Rainbow efreet
+ 4 ancestral vision + 3 cryptic command + 3 vendillion clique
... something like that from my list.

I felt the need of this long reply because I see few people play this deck in a competitive way and this topic is loosing earnestness (come on, what's calcite snapper ???).
I love MUC and I would like more people playing it because the good metagame is coming back. I would like some feedback and exchange of ideas too. this deck is as old as magic, I don't want to see it becoming a grave.

(excuse me if something I wrote is difficult to undrestand, but It's quite a lot that I don't speek of write in English)

Maffe

[1maarten1]

hi guys. I play MUC since since 2004 in Italy. just muc (and recently also faeris stompy).
I tried heaps of version of the deck. E.G.[Mono U, with white splash (just for StP main deck with both ptopaganda & B2B), with chalice of the void...]

The best version of the deck is the MONO U permament-MUC to my view. defenetly! because white splash helps only for the match-up we are already good aginst.
- Calice-muc is week because it's too slow in the first turns... and cc1 drops are less problem than cc2 drops.
- countertop muc just sucks, believe me. (I can explain all the reasons if someone would like)

there's a card that some players do not use but she is the only reason to play muc now-a-days in a competitive way: BACK TO BASICS.

MUC is not superior to anyone deck played around in this times. I mean I cannot say: "yeah, I beat zoo. no problem" because control decks can lose to anyone.
We make the difference thanks to the personal game-plan & skill, being able to be play in a different way according to the opponent's deck.

All my muc decks always had this Layout (I would advice)

@ 22-23-24 mana sources (depends on the drawing engine)

@ 7-8 drawers or manipulating cards

@ 11-12 counters

@ 3 winning conditions

@ 14-16 board control cards

@ 0-3 bouncers (personally I consider only cryptic command & jace. all the other bouncers are useless because they don't give advantage in at least 2 turns time or card-advantage)

- let's consider the counterspells area:

4 FoW + 4 Counterspell + 3/4 spell snare are the wright choice (daze sucks, force spike is no longer strong, mana leak no sense because we have counterspell)

# MANA AREA: no-non basic lands. If you want to play brainstorm (BS), then play 5/6 fetches. but I usually like just islands because I don't fell need of BS and because sometimes when we win, we are very low of life points (e.g vs zoo).
no wasteland. no reason. we cannot lose a land drop and we have Back to basics for opponent's lands.

# DRAWERS:

the choice depends on if you feel need to manipulate or just card advantage (BS, ponder, impulse don't give card advantage. sensei's top gives dis-advantage).
For sure every muc needs 3-4 FACT OR FICTION because it's a bomb. no matter if you would draw 2 cards only sometimes because you have digged for 5!
the possible choice are to my view 2 and they depends on the metagame:
a) 3 impulse + 4 Fact of fiction (FoF)
b) 4 ancestral vision (AV) + 4 Fact of fiction (might be 3 if you play also 3 cryptic command)
I personally prefere (a) a lot. Because impulse + FoF digs deeply in your deck. really deep.
(b) is terribly slow even if it provides heaps of cards in you hand (but topdecking AV in mid-late game sucks quite a lot)
I would advice AV + FoF If you expect lots of black based decks running hymn to tourach, duress... but they are not a lot nowadays.

# BOARD CONTROL:

3-4 Back to basics (I suggest 4 because it's a winning card, no metter if one is useless in your hand because it makes you win)
4 powder keg _ only way to destroy things of this deck. defenetly 4.
3-4 vedalken shackles
0 or 4 Propaganda.
and here discussions begin. Most of players who have few experience of the deck usually say it's useless. I never played without 4 (no reson to run 3). the reasons are the following:
- this card is extremely sinergic with B2B.
- B2B + Propaganda is winning conditions for heaps of match ups (zoo, goblin, threshold, ichorid, faeries, elves, belcher, loam, eva green, Landstill... should I go on ?!)
how many basic lands tier decks run? very very few. no one expect B2B nowadays. a really good play is turn 3 propaganda, turn 4 B2B = lock for at least 2 turns. in those turns we can find a second propaganda or a vedalken shackles.
I think It is perfect for nowadays turnaments-breakdown.

# WINNING CONDITIONS:

chose the one you prefere. but they need to satisfy the following points:
- they can protect themselves
- they can be tempo-card (that is to say they also need to be able to protect you if you need)
they do not need to too be fast, we are control players.
I personally use:
2 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet
Yes, combat rules have changed, but I don't think something better has been printed.
do you think Sphinx of Jwar Isle is the new Morphling? Sphinx of Jwar Isle sucks because it doesn't untap and most of times can't face an attacking tarmo and it is as big as tombstalker. I played it in one turnament and I lost a game because of a tombstalker and a tarmo. Morphling would have face both. It sucks. stop. Yes, it doesn't require mana. But is that a problem?
I use rainbow efreet as second winning conditions because it doesn't die to anything. Especially it doesn't die to all the things that can kill Morphling (edict, innocent blood, pox, wrath of god, pericious deed...)
I think I won as much games thanks to Rainbow Efreet as for Morphling.
we are brain players because we play muc. don't need brainless winning conditions.

SIDEBOARD:
we need cards ONLY to face those decks we are in serious trouble against without sideboard cards. If we can't win neither with sideboard. don't use sideboard against those match and just hope not to find them.
personally I build my sideboard only against those decks (but no space for everyone, I decide which not according to what I expect in a turnament)
- enchantress
- ant
- merfolk
- progenitus-bant (beatable also only with the main, but they are so popular that something more can be interesting)
- survival
- burn
(remember that you can put in your side some creatures because opponents tend to side-out Sword to Plowshares in g2 if they are intelligent)

that's my deck:

23/24 island

2 morphling
1 rainbow efreet

3 impulse
4 fact or fiction

4 force of will
4 counterspell
3/4 spell snare

4 back to basics
4 propaganda
4 powder keg
3/4 vedalken shakles

sideboard:
3/4 chalice of the void (Vs ant: chalice @ ZERO + B2B = GAME)
3 hibernation (bant & progenitus)
0-3 aura flux
2/3 pithing needle
0-3 tormod's crypt/relic of progenitus
2/3 Llawan, Cephalid Empress (merfolk & progenitus)
0-3 seasinger (bant sides out swords to plowshares for krosan grip, so they have no solutions for seasinger g2)

Obviously the 0-3 or 3/4 depends on the metageme expected...

I usually do not use some strong cards because I don't have room for them because my game-plan is based on permanent-locks.
If somebody doesn't want to play propaganda. I would advice:
- 4 propaganda - 1 B2B - 3 impulse - 1 FoF - 1 Rainbow efreet
+ 4 ancestral vision + 3 cryptic command + 3 vendillion clique
... something like that from my list.

I felt the need of this long reply because I see few people play this deck in a competitive way and this topic is loosing earnestness (come on, what's calcite snapper ???).
I love MUC and I would like more people playing it because the good metagame is coming back. I would like some feedback and exchange of ideas too. this deck is as old as magic, I don't want to see it becoming a grave.

(excuse me if something I wrote is difficult to undrestand, but It's quite a lot that I don't speek of write in English)

Maffe

Thanks alot for this post, It makes alot of things clear :). And the english is No Problem ofcourse! ;)

I do have some questions: How do you feel about Sower of Temptation in such a heavy Aggro meta these days? And I will start testing the deck again on MWS using the same list as you, more or less ;). I'll try to post my results here as often as possible!

~maarten

[serendib]

I don't like sower because there are too many remouvals around. it would die immediately. playing sower we would lose a card (her) and we would rend StP (swords to plwshares) useful for opponent. we don't want to make StP usefull against us.
let our opponent keep his remouvals in his hand :tongue:
I think that the solution to aggro is propaganda + vedalken + B2B. My gameplan against aggro is the following:
- vs goblin: counter and/or play powder keg the first 2 turns. Play Propaganda as soon as possible. we can look for it in t2 with impulse if we don't have the enchantment. them it get's easy. with vedalken on the field too we have won. because you have heaps of time to do whatever you want. you just need to pay attention to siegang.
DO NOT take out more then 1 B2B on game2. it is usefull against the splash. Play B2B when he taps the dual, so that he cannot do krosan grip if he plays green too. Other Important thing is NEVER let Rainbow Efreet put under the deck with impulse or discard it with FoF.
the reason is that he probabely plays the tribal-goblin diabolic edict (if you have blue elemental blast take 3 in for 2 spell snare and 1 B2B, otherwise pithing needle calling vial first and sieggang second. Or the creature first if he has lacchè on board)
(I'm undefeeted vs goblin in the turnament matchs I won the coin & started :tongue:)
- vs zoo it's easier because they have heaps of dual lands and our powder are like wrath of god against all his cc1 drop... and they don't draw as goblin does. much easier match.
- vs merfolk you need him to play a splash, so that you can lock him with prop-b2b. otherwise the problem is Lord of atlantis just because of islandwalk. a big problem not been able to block him. (+2 pithing needle calling vial+ 3 Llawan to win if you succeede in dropping both)

Permanent MUC is THE anti-aggro deck :cool:
the more they are fast, the esaier is to block them with propaganda.

[DragoFireheart]

How the hell does this deck fight merfolk decks? It seems like Islandwalk would utterly ruin us, and they have counters for Propaganda.

[serendib]

ok. merfolk problem is the islandwalk ability provided by their lord of atlantis because (for example if we have propaganda + shackles we can't block with one of their creature).

If you read what I wrote, you can see that I didn't say merfolk is easy. It is not. but without propaganda we lose most times. I bring 3 Llawan,cephalid empress in the sideboard. If Llawan come into play, they can play creatures only with vial. It's game most of times.

are you afraid on propaganda been countered? yes, merfolk runs force of will and daze!!! OH GOD... no deck runs force! Is that strange? MUC HAS 8 HARD COUNTERS + 4 snare who counter lord and standstill. just play around daze ... consider that no player espects propaganda maindeck. Maybe a merfolk player should be warried on our counters...

... Anyway, if you have both propaganda and shackles, you can take his biggest creature and attack him with islanwalk and go for the race. or take his creature he wants to attack you with in declaring of your blockers.
difficult, not impossible...

[1maarten1]

ok. merfolk problem is the islandwalk ability provided by their lord of atlantis because (for example if we have propaganda + shackles we can't block with one of their creature).

If you read what I wrote, you can see that I didn't say merfolk is easy. It is not. but without propaganda we lose most times. I bring 3 Llawan,cephalid empress in the sideboard. If Llawan come into play, they can play creatures only with vial. It's game most of times.

are you afraid on propaganda been countered? yes, merfolk runs force of will and daze!!! OH GOD... no deck runs force! Is that strange? MUC HAS 8 HARD COUNTERS + 4 snare who counter lord and standstill. just play around daze ... consider that no player espects propaganda maindeck. Maybe a merfolk player should be warried on our counters...

... Anyway, if you have both propaganda and shackles, you can take his biggest creature and attack him with islanwalk and go for the race. or take his creature he wants to attack you with in declaring of your blockers.
difficult, not impossible...

Ok, I agree on the Sower thing, and how you describe the matchups..

But something more important :D Whats your opinion on Sphinx of Jwar Isle?

[Jason]

...
(come on, what's calcite snapper ???).
...

What's Calcite Snapper??? He's a game-winner. I've tested him and every time I've got him down against Zoo or ANT/TES he's single-handedly won me the game. Against Bant, it can stall until I get a Jace or Sphinx online. Shroud turtle is for real. I like the turtle more than Propaganda because he can be a wall or a fast clock. Propaganda + Back to Basics is an awesome "lock" but it is very fragile (Qasali Pridemage, Krosan Grip). In the situations where I've had both pieces lock down the opponent, I would have simply won with B2B anyway. I'd rather have the turtle for versatility.

For the record, my win-conditions used to be Call the Skybreaker and Rainbow Efreet. Now they are Sphinx of Jwar Isle, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and Calcite Snapper

[serendib]

Yes, the shroud turtle can be a wall. but against one single and small creature.
propaganda blocks a group of goblins
snapper can block just one. (e.g. with propaganda piledriver is an angry 1/2, with snapper it is a big as he wants).
Propaganda + B2B don't let opponent both play or attack (with some troubles).

think of an hypotetic match against canadian having no-base-lands in play + tarmo (4/5) + mongoose. Would you prefere having propaganda + b2b on board or would you like 2 snappers? I have my unswer.

Opponents don't krosan b2b, they are tapped out. Or they have lost at least 2 turns try to collect enought mana to play it. (I Play b2b just when the opponent has his duals/wasteland tapped). If they have lost 2 turns It's good I think.

Qasali is played by 2 decks only. zoo and bant. very popular decks. Zoo It's the easiest match up of this metagame for muc. If I could chose who to play agains I would say zoo.
Bant has got 2 dangerous cards for me: counterbalance & quasali. wow, they cost 2. So I have 12 counters for them. No matter If tarmo or rhox enters. I will lock him just playing my cards and countering qasali & balance. G2 you also have pithing needle. (Yes, they have also FoW. But I'm better because I drow more and best)

Of course happens that our lock gets brocken. but's a lock. snapper is a weeker-lock but does not depend on some other card. If I'll find b2b-propaganda so easy to breack, I would look for something else.

As for the winning conditions. Jace is really good against some decks. really good. but sometimes useless against other decks. I guess that's why you also have sphinx. they can be good together I guess.

@ maarten: the day sphinx got printed, I substituted 1 morphling with one and directly tried in a turnament. I didn't like her because she is an offensive only creature because she cannot block tarmo 5/6 (it's usual size) or I sometimes needed to block a tombstalker loosing 1/3 of my winning conditions. Morphling can block even phyrexian dreadnought if you have mana, and attack the same time. There is a reason why he used to be called superman. he can do everithing we need: protect us, protect himself, attack... alltogether.

[Jason]

Yes, the shroud turtle can be a wall. but against one single and small creature.
propaganda blocks a group of goblins
snapper can block just one. (e.g. with propaganda piledriver is an angry 1/2, with snapper it is a big as he wants).
Propaganda + B2B don't let opponent both play or attack (with some troubles).

Most aggro decks don't have enough creatures in play to justify playing Propaganda. The exception would obviously be Goblins; however, Propaganda + B2B doesn't really do too much against Goblins, as they can fetch out their basics - they don't always have multiple Wasteland where this will shut them down. If the opponent has multiple goblins in play, even with Propaganda + B2B, you are going to lose the game. The other exception to the swarms would be Affinity. Yes, this lock is broken against Affinity; however, I've won every Affinity match-up in less than 10 minutes on the shoulders of Powder Keg alone. Powder Keg > Affinity.



think of an hypotetic match against canadian having no-base-lands in play + tarmo (4/5) + mongoose. Would you prefere having propaganda + b2b on board or would you like 2 snappers? I have my unswer.

Is the Mongoose a 1/1? If so, I'd rather have the 2x turtle and a Back to Basics. Nonetheless, I'd be surprised if you can get out Propaganda + B2B against Canadian Threshold with that board position without either being in an unwinnable situation already or, if it's late game, to keeping the lock in play, seeing as they run Krosan Grip. The opponent doesn't have to attack through the Propaganda, as you have no clock. He or she can simply wait for the Krosan Grip or Wipe Away and blow you out of the game.



Opponents don't krosan b2b, they are tapped out. Or they have lost at least 2 turns try to collect enought mana to play it. (I Play b2b just when the opponent has his duals/wasteland tapped). If they have lost 2 turns It's good I think.

Good players rarely completely tap out, especially when looking at basic Islands. Not to mention, a lot of decks are running enough basic lands to function. Even Zoo runs at least 3 basics, which is more than enough to fully win the game for them. Zoo players fetch out basic Plains + basic Mountain + basic Forest and will win on the shoulders of Qasali Pridemage or KGrip away the lock and overrun (literally, not the card) you. The main exceptions of decks running basics are Supreme Blue and Canadian Threshold, but they have answers in countermagic, Engineered Explosives and/or Krosan Grip. Yes, B2B is a great card - I'm not saying it isn't - I'm saying your lock is easily cracked.



Qasali is played by 2 decks only. zoo and bant. very popular decks. Zoo It's the easiest match up of this metagame for muc. If I could chose who to play agains I would say zoo.
Bant has got 2 dangerous cards for me: counterbalance & quasali. wow, they cost 2. So I have 12 counters for them. No matter If tarmo or rhox enters. I will lock him just playing my cards and countering qasali & balance. G2 you also have pithing needle. (Yes, they have also FoW. But I'm better because I drow more and best)

You don't always have that Spell Snare for turn 2 kitty or turn 2 Counterbalance, especially since you are running 3x of them in certain situations. Since you don't run Brainstorm, can you really say you have better draw (in the early game) than Bant? Impulse doesn't come online until Qasali Pridemage/Counterbalance is already in play, which means your actual card advantage engine, Fact or Fiction, definitely isn't online.



Of course happens that our lock gets brocken. but's a lock. snapper is a weeker-lock but does not depend on some other card. If I'll find b2b-propaganda so easy to breack, I would look for something else.

It's simply too slow. By the time you get the lock online, it may have already been too late. Shroud turtle provides more options, as it can serve the same roll as Propaganda (seeing as many decks don't have swarms of creatures) and it is also a clock for slower decks or combo decks.



As for the winning conditions. Jace is really good against some decks. really good. but sometimes useless against other decks. I guess that's why you also have sphinx. they can be good together I guess.

I actually find Jace in the same category of Call the Skybreaker; it provides inevitability for the deck. I only sideboard it out against Zoo, as it can easily be rid of and is simply too slow.

For reference, I also do not run strictly Mono-Blue anymore because resolved creatures were really getting annoying in the aggro-heavy games I was facing. I now run a nearly Mono-Blue deck, as I splash red for Lightning Bolt (and Firespout out of the sideboard). Initially Lightning Bolt was Fire//Ice, but I found that card couldn't kill anything.

My list looks like:
Land (24)
1 Academy Ruins
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
12 Snow-Covered Island
1 Mountain

Artifact (6)
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Powder Keg
3 Vedalken Shackles

Planeswalker (1)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Creature (3)
2 Calcite Snapper
1 Sphinx of Jwar Isle

Enchantment (3)
3 Back to Basics

Other Spells (23)
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Spell Snare

Sideboard (15)
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Firespout
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sower of Temptation
3 Spell Pierce

I can answer any question about individual card choices and what I do against certain match-ups, but I'm not going to go into extensive detail about it all now. I know I want a second Jace, but I don't want to cut anything else (and I don't own a second Jace) so I don't think I'm going to put another in. Calcite Snapper is a powerhouse in my list, but then again many creatures aren't hitting play. This may not be true MUC, but it is still plays exactly like it, only now it has spot removal (yay!).

[serendib]

B2B + Propaganda wins against threshold. If you play propaganda, your opponent has to decide weather attack you or not. when he taps, here comes back to basics. (Mongoose is a 3/3 shroud and goyf 5/6 against us usually)
ok, you say he waits for krosan grip (which is not a mainboard card)... good! I play a further b2b, propaganda or shackles. and it gets worse for him. And my Morphling faces tarmo 5/6 too, your creatures don't.

I see you play lightning bolts maindeck. Wouldn't you prefere swords to plowshares?
I guess you prefere red splash because so that you can use Firespout in the sideboard. Very powerfull card... If you need firespout it means you are not that strong vs aggro-decks.

Propaganda wins vs goblin because he can attack with 1 maximum 2 creatures. Shackles & or Morphling finish the work. I wonder how you stop goblin (bolt or egineered ?.. he would tutor an other one).... a piledriver vs me is maximim a 3/2. wow.

I wonder how you stop Ichorid too withour propaganda. (just explosives/powder keg = 3 cards?), relic? he starts again...

Propanda is an intelligent card also againt decks running 8 creatures because forces the opponent to tap his land... fof B2B.

I have a lock. you don't. a 1/4 creature is NOT a lock... it is good for 3/3 only.

Vs bant I don't need to counters his creatures. I allways let tarmo or rhox in. they are not a problem. I guess they are a problem for you. how are you gonna give an unswer to an exalted rhox 4/5 ? bolt? calcite dieing? explosives for 2?... that's why qasali is not a problem for me... I use counters only against him and balance... I guess you counter everything you see because eveithing is a problem for you...

You have 6 cards that are usefull only against 3/3 creatures... and you have notting to unswer a 5/6 tarmo, for example. (Please, don't say "double bolt!")

I play 4 b2b, 4 propaganda, 3/4 vedalken shackles. krosan it's not a problem as you can see, I can play more then one. redundancy! and impulse digs to find the piece I like at the moment. (impulse it's a mid-lgame card) how many krosan grip players side in? 12?

I know why you are so scared of krosan grip and qasali, you play just 3 b2b and 3 shackles...

MUC makes denial
- mana denial
- card denial
- tempo adv
thay key is using cards that actually give advantage. lightning bolt is not advantage. It'a 1X1. B2B + propaganda for example keep your opponent locked till he finds an unswer. So, I do 2 turns and he just watch while he looks for 2 land. That's advantage: 2 free turns!
... and I can get my lock even stronger in that time...

[Jason]

B2B + Propaganda wins against threshold. If you play propaganda, your opponent has to decide weather attack you or not. when he taps, here comes back to basics. (Mongoose is a 3/3 shroud and goyf 5/6 against us usually)
ok, you say he waits for krosan grip (which is not a mainboard card)... good! I play a further b2b, propaganda or shackles. and it gets worse for him. And my Morphling faces tarmo 5/6 too, your creatures don't.

Against Tempo Thresh, Mongoose is the scary card, not Tarmogoyf. Tarmogoyf lies down to all the counter magic, Engineered Explosives and Vedalken Shackles. I'm not worried about having a Morphling playing wall duty for a 5/6 Tarmogoyf because, chances are, if Goyf hits 5/6, then my opponent has probably countered or destroyed your bombs (e.g. B2B - or in your case Propaganda - and Shackles to give him an artifact and enchantment to go along with sorcery, instant and creature) so against Tempo Thresh, your opponent is probably going to burn you out. Can Morphling win fast enough? Let's see... in order for Morphling to fly, untap, block that Goyf, and have protection, you need 9 mana. If you have 9 mana and you haven't won or put yourself in a winning position, you probably don't have an answer for those burn spells anyway.



I see you play lightning bolts maindeck. Wouldn't you prefere swords to plowshares?
I guess you prefere red splash because so that you can use Firespout in the sideboard. Very powerfull card... If you need firespout it means you are not that strong vs aggro-decks.

Propaganda wins vs goblin because he can attack with 1 maximum 2 creatures. Shackles & or Morphling finish the work. I wonder how you stop goblin (bolt or egineered ?.. he would tutor an other one).... a piledriver vs me is maximim a 3/2. wow.

I wonder how you stop Ichorid too withour propaganda. (just explosives/powder keg = 3 cards?), relic? he starts again...


What do you do the first two or three turns when the game is already in the Goblins player's favor? If he lands a turn 1 Lackey, turn 2 hits you for 8+? Are you really going to play a turn 3 Propaganda when you've taken 10, have no real board control and the Goblins player can poke you to death with 2/2's (or if he hits his fourth land, a 2/2 and a 3/2). The game isn't looking too good for you anymore. With Lightning Bolt, it gives me more of an answer to turn 1 Lackey than just Force of Will. Lightning Bolt also hits turn 1 Nacatl and turn 1 Steppe Lynx. The aggro decks that can swarm you also play burn. That gives them reach. If you have already taken 10+ damage by the time Propaganda comes online, then you are opening yourself up to losing to burn to the face. What do you do against random Affinity players when only one creature needs to swing through for the win? Propaganda is too slow against these decks. It's good if you can set it up, but you cannot rely on it to save you.

Also, I would rather have Swords to Plowshares, but Lightning Bolt can kill all the annoying early creatures (sans Tarmogoyf which is my best win condition). By playing red, I get Firespout to assist me with the Lightning Bolt against Zoo, Goblins, Dredge, Affinity, and Merfolk.

Against Ichorid, I'm fighting an uphill battle. I would say you are as well. If you live to turn 3 for Propaganda, you'll probably win. I dare say, if I live to turn 5 or 6, I'll probably win. Do not underestimate the power of recurring EE or Powder Keg. Not to mention, the turtle blocks Ichorid all day long.



Propanda is an intelligent card also againt decks running 8 creatures because forces the opponent to tap his land... fof B2B.

I have a lock. you don't. a 1/4 creature is NOT a lock... it is good for 3/3 only.


Again, Propaganda isn't the card winning you the game. It's Back to Basics. You're combo is ok, but it is slow. I've lost to Canadian Threshold with B2B + Propaganda after I took 11 from Mongoose before I got it online because he just waited for 3 Lightning Bolts and Forced them through. Don't forget, those tempo decks also run Daze, which gives them a free untap.



Vs bant I don't need to counters his creatures. I allways let tarmo or rhox in. they are not a problem. I guess they are a problem for you. how are you gonna give an unswer to an exalted rhox 4/5 ? bolt? calcite dieing? explosives for 2?... that's why qasali is not a problem for me... I use counters only against him and balance... I guess you counter everything you see because eveithing is a problem for you...


These are bad assumptions. I haven't dealt with a Rhox War Monk or a Qasali Pridemage? With Lightning Bolt, Force of Will, Vedalken Shackles, Counterspell, Spell Snare, and Engineered Explosives all in the deck as multiples, if I had none of them, then I kept a pretty weak hand, don't you think? If the opponent had counters for my answers, then don't you think the opponent would have answers to your slow combo too? - especially since Bolt and Spell Snare come online 2 turns sooner than Propaganda OR Back to Basics.



You have 6 cards that are usefull only against 3/3 creatures... and you have notting to unswer a 5/6 tarmo, for example. (Please, don't say "double bolt!")


Aside from double bolt, I can Jace the Goyf back to the opponent's hand and counter it. Oh... you want a legit answer? Sorry, I was being a smart ass. How about I just steal it with Shackles and win the game, thanking the opponent for giving me such an excellent win condition? I also have Engineered Explosives and Powder Keg. With Academy Ruins, I can recur them (only if B2B isn't in play, of course... if I'm playing against Bant, which runs up to 6 basics, I probably won't have it in play 100% of the time). You must have missed those cards though.



I play 4 b2b, 4 propaganda, 3/4 vedalken shackles. krosan it's not a problem as you can see, I can play more then one. redundancy! and impulse digs to find the piece I like at the moment. (impulse it's a mid-lgame card) how many krosan grip players side in? 12?

I know why you are so scared of krosan grip and qasali, you play just 3 b2b and 3 shackles...

MUC makes denial
- mana denial
- card denial
- tempo adv
thay key is using cards that actually give advantage. lightning bolt is not advantage. It'a 1X1. B2B + propaganda for example keep your opponent locked till he finds an unswer. So, I do 2 turns and he just watch while he looks for 2 land. That's advantage: 2 free turns!
... and I can get my lock even stronger in that time...

You seem to have B2B and Propaganda a lot. I don't think the odds are in your favor for that happening. I'm hoping your cards aren't marked. Redundancy doesn't mean you're going to have them all the time. Propaganda without Back to Basics is weak. What do you do when you don't have B2B? Lose? What do you do against creatures when you have B2B and no Propaganda? Lose? By the way, didn't you just say you counter the Qasali Pridemage? Why are you so afraid of it? Is it because it destroys your only way to deal with the opponent's creatures? If you're only running 23 lands, I'd dare say Impulse is an early game card, as it is going to be an Islandcycler quite a bit (I know... hint: I've actually played the deck)

Interesting you say Lightning Bolt is not advantage. Guess what - Counterspell is not an advantage. It's a 1x1. Force of Will is not an advantage. You spend 2 cards for 1. Why are those cards good? Because you are stopping things that are relevant. Trading cards 1-for-1 until you can get overwhelming card advantage in Fact or Fiction (or in my case Jace) and drop bomb after bomb is a good strategy. It worked for Randy Buehler. Here's a quote:

Card drawing has always been one of my favorite aspects of Magic. Many of my favorite decks have the same basic core strategy: I trade cards one-for-one with the other guy as efficiently as possible while I build up mana and then in the mid-game I use that mana to draw extra cards. This is card advantage implemented in its most basic and elegant form and when I was first getting good at Magic, that's how everyone around me played.
Trust me, those fundamentals haven't changed since 1999.

[serendib]

All wright. we have different ideas of what muc is. no meaning to go further in this private exchange.
so, only results can tell wich type of build is better. I'm playing b2b+propaganda since beguining of 2008 do you think it is too old? give a look at what happened in Orlando. the list is just as mine as you can see (but I like little more lands):

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=leg&start_date=2010-03-28&end_date=2010-03-28&event_type=STAL

(position # 13).. that's not a 30 person local turnament...

since 2008 the metagame changes see bant, zoo and ANT mostly... thresh is still the same, goblin & merfolk too, as for ichorid...

a little considerations:
to attack with flying morphling and block 5/6 tarmo I need 5 mana.. I see you know morphling, the reason why muc was born.

[Rancorous Fool]

+1 to the Ex- Girlfriend Build.

20 island
3 factory

4 ancestral vision
4 spell snare
4 counterspell
4 powder keg
4 vendilion clique
4 vedalken shackles
4 cryptic command
3 fof
2 jace 2.0
4 force of will

(last minute i cut -1 guile -1 fof for jace due to the prevalence of control and zoo in the room, this was a mistake the main should be -1 cryptic +1 guile. Guile is boss)

I X-02ed the swiss. Lost in the first round of the top8, first match loss of the day. :( got a mox ruby for my trouble.

B2B is a fine sb card. but useless in more than 50% of matches. It has no effect on game state on the most critical turn in legacy. I would be interested in hearing what mr foster thinks of his card choices.

i was asked to post my usage of jace. Jace was usually 2UU suspend 6, win the game. Occasionally I needed to dig for answers and so I would brainstorm. Rarely if I needed answers was jace relevent to the situation. He got pitched to force of will, a lot.
Throughout the swiss, I used the +2 many many times. Jace's ultimate 12 (exagerated- actual is 8) times. I used brainstorm 6 times and used unsummon 4 times, 2 of those times were on my own Clique to "thoughtseize" my opponent.

[god_campbell]

I am liking the discussion that is happening, and Itrust it was the Bazaar of moxen you top 8'ed Rancorous Fool? do you mind my asking what your sb was for that tourney?

[mmmetaphor]

+1 to the Ex- Girlfriend Build.

20 island
3 factory

4 ancestral vision
4 spell snare
4 counterspell
4 powder keg
4 vendilion clique
4 vedalken shackles
4 cryptic command
3 fof
2 jace 2.0
4 force of will

(last minute i cut -1 guile -1 fof for jace due to the prevalence of control and zoo in the room, this was a mistake the main should be -1 cryptic +1 guile. Guile is boss)

I X-02ed the swiss. Lost in the first round of the top8, first match loss of the day. :( got a mox ruby for my trouble.

B2B is a fine sb card. but useless in more than 50% of matches. It has no effect on game state on the most critical turn in legacy. I would be interested in hearing what mr foster thinks of his card choices.

i was asked to post my usage of jace. Jace was usually 2UU suspend 6, win the game. Occasionally I needed to dig for answers and so I would brainstorm. Rarely if I needed answers was jace relevent to the situation. He got pitched to force of will, a lot.
Throughout the swiss, I used the +2 many many times. Jace's ultimate 12 times. I used brainstorm 6 times and used unsummon 4 times, 2 of those times were on my own Clique to "thoughtseize" my opponent.

Is spell snare really worth 4 slots? It seems narrow and situational...

[Jason]

Is spell snare really worth 4 slots? It seems narrow and situational...

In no particular order:
Qasali Pridemage, Hymn to Tourach, Sinkhole, Counterbalance, Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, Lord of Atlantis, Goblin Piledriver, Standstill, Umezawa's Jitte, Dark Confidant

Need I say more?

[Rancorous Fool]

Spell snare is worse than spell pierce.

But, it does what you need it to do, counterspell teeg and pridemage. I board in 4x spell pierce in > 50% of matchups. The reason snare is main is that it is not bad in any matchup, whereas pierce is horrendous in some matchups, like zoo or goblins. This creates an overall stronger maindeck than other options.

If you read the above list, there are only 4 creatures on it: LOA, goyf, pridemage, Bob. To that I would add teeg.

Spell pierce counters everything else on the list + brainstorm, top, mystical tutor, entomb, reanimate, swords, force, intuition, ad nauseum, dark ritual, shackles, moat, humility, jace, etc etc.

I top8ed the power9 tournament @ Jupiter Games in vestal. My only match loss in the tournament was in the top8. :(

SB:
4 spell pierce
2 tormod's crypt
2 relic of progenitus
2 b2b
2 pithing needle
1 hibernation
1 controll magic
1 submerge

Intended SB should be -1 submerge -1 controll magic + 2 hibernation. This did not come up, as I never played enchantress and i beat probant anyway. b2b, needle, and relic are all better versus survival anyway.

In the future I will play 2 hibernation, 1 energy field

[The Treefolk Master]

Did you make any tournament reports?

What did you play against?

[Rancorous Fool]

I do not have notes. But, i can give you a rough estimation.

Round 1(draw-FAIL) Monogreen chalice aggro. I cannot see the clock, my first warning of time was at 1 minute. I have the game locked up and he slow plays, i let him. This is clearly a huge play error- consider this a match thrown. I draw. Jace ultimate #1

Round 2 2-0 Pro-bant sans CB/top + wayfarer, spell pierce, wasteland and mongeese.
I keg mongeese and shackles goyf. Jace ultimate #2

Round 3 2-1 Monoblock control.
Game 1. Duress + hymn into an early liliana, i want to see his win-con.

Game 2. Pierce + needle + b2b is good. Jace ultimate #3

Game 3. I mull to 4. I suspend 2 visions, then resolve FOF, I win via jace ultimate #4

Round 4 2-0 tempo thresh
V clique blocks mongoose, factory blocks mongoose, jace ultimates #5
Keg gets a goose, shackles x2> goyf x2.

Round 5 2-1 Zoo -foggy these were long games
Game 1. Nacatl, Nacatl, Kirdape. I do not have keg, i decline to play spells.

Game 2. He has a lot of 2 drops, i have counterspells, spell snares and cliques. Clique gets there.

Game 3. I have counterspells, he has dudes. I submerge an early kird ape in resp to a fetch. Jace ultimate #6

Round 6 2-1 walker still
Game 1. I have more counterspells and card draw, win jace ultimate #7
game 2. I draw 19 lands, lose.
Game 3 I b2b and spell pierce a bunch of stuff. I do not think he resolved a spell other than swords to plowshares. I resolved 3x ancestral visions. Jace ultimate #8

Round 7. ANT-2-1 Blanking on name. nice guy, weird luck.
Game 1. I mull to 5 to find force. He disrupts and goes off. He fizzles.
Game 2. I keep pierce + force, he goes duress x2, go off.
Game 3. I keep pierce x2 + force. He goes off on turn 2. He fizzles.
... He went off early with >1 protection 3 times<=== Lucky. He fizzled, twice. ME<----Champion Lucksackery

Round 8. Draw in with zoo.

[The Treefolk Master]

Thanks for the quick response.

[DragoFireheart]

Jason, why would you run red over white? White provides much better spot removal and also gives you the option to run Elspeth as a win-con.

[1maarten1]

+1 to the Ex- Girlfriend Build.

20 island
3 factory

4 ancestral vision
4 spell snare
4 counterspell
4 powder keg
4 vendilion clique
4 vedalken shackles
4 cryptic command
3 fof
2 jace 2.0
4 force of will

(last minute i cut -1 guile -1 fof for jace due to the prevalence of control and zoo in the room, this was a mistake the main should be -1 cryptic +1 guile. Guile is boss)

I X-02ed the swiss. Lost in the first round of the top8, first match loss of the day. :( got a mox ruby for my trouble.

B2B is a fine sb card. but useless in more than 50% of matches. It has no effect on game state on the most critical turn in legacy. I would be interested in hearing what mr foster thinks of his card choices.

i was asked to post my usage of jace. Jace was usually 2UU suspend 6, win the game. Occasionally I needed to dig for answers and so I would brainstorm. Rarely if I needed answers was jace relevent to the situation. He got pitched to force of will, a lot.
Throughout the swiss, I used the +2 many many times. Jace's ultimate 12 (exagerated- actual is 8) times. I used brainstorm 6 times and used unsummon 4 times, 2 of those times were on my own Clique to "thoughtseize" my opponent.

Cool list, but what were your thought on Cryptic command and Factory? And why would you want Guile back in the deck? (I dont understand what that card does lol :eek:, explain plz?:D)

For the rest, i like it :D!

~Maarten

EDIT: I found this: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6954919 Your final match in t8 against the survival deck. The StP topdeck made me laugh lol, and the Meddling mage on Visions game 1 was pretty painfull too :P! Anyway, you didn't draw much drawspells/fows in both games, how do you feel about the matchup overall? And what did you side in/out?

oh yea and btw, in( i believe) game 1 you have 2 islands, 1 factory and play a Clique in your own turn, why didnt you play it at the end of his? Or did i miss something there :P?

[serendib]

Well done rancorous_fool.
I like your deck. stong cards an big drawing.
I love 4X cards-decks...

I have a few questions for you if you don't mind:

- never happened to want to take an opponent's creature with shackles but you had mishra's on field so that you didn't have enought lands?
I ask that because once I played with white splash, I had the problem of the island count cause of the plain.

- wasn't the casting cost4 cards too much? I mean: "Have you ever needed to mulligan because you had too many high casting costs in your hands?"

now some comments:

- Jace 2.0 is wonderfull yes, but in your deck. It doesn't fit in all muc decks. It is perfect in your deck because of 4 vedalken shackles + 4 cryptic command + 3 mishra + 4 vendillion = 15 cards. For example in my version she wouldn't live because I don't have that many "Attack blockers or similar..." . Absolutely perfect in your deck.

- Watching the video of your match I realized that the style of playing is completely different from a B2B-propaganda muc. they are 2 different decks.
B2B is a strong card even against decks running half/duals if the deck runs propaganda too (half-non basic lands = aggro = good match) and very strong against aggro-controls. immagine what a propaganda + b2b on turn 5 vs survival bant could do... or thresh... But using Propaganda + b2b means also making the deck work around that "combo". For Example I am forced to use havy manipulating cards like impulse or fof to set the clock and using full set of prop & b2b to be sure that I can set multiple copies while the opponent is still blocked and forced to find lands. I end my games with 3/4 propagandas on board and 2/3 back to basics (if opponent doesn't run E.E.).

So, to conclude. I wouldn't mix or either think on the use or not of propaganda & B2B in your deck (also sideboard) because they don't fit in terms of "style of playing the deck" (I don't know the correct word) and also because they need a specific & different draw engine.

As for the ANT match up. I use 4Xchalice (@0 first, then @1 if needed) in the side. combined to b2b makes you win, I can garantee that. But I don't know if you want to spend all that slots in the side... otherwise extract! which is usefull also vs reanimator & enchantress to take out iona or a winning condition.
I think muc is too slow in winning to face ant with counters. they would find the way to start again while we try slowly to kill him... That's the only advice I feel to give you.

Well done again.

[Rancorous Fool]

I will respond to more later in the day but @serendib. Take back to basics out of your deck. You will win more. I believe the reason I cliqued in my own EOT was to snake an Iona and prevent the turn 3 lock. He could have survivaled for a blank in his tun pitching iona, setting him up for loyal retainers. Yes both games I was mana flooded, however; game 2 there were so many misplays its not worth considering the game for testing purposes.

[Jason]

Jason, why would you run red over white? White provides much better spot removal and also gives you the option to run Elspeth as a win-con.

I want red because Firespout is really good; if I want to play Elspeth, I'll just play Landstill. Firespout is like Wrath but I don't want to have to hit WW to cast my cards - my list I only have to hit single R. White is better for spot removal (and better for mass removal), but Lightning Bolt kills almost all the important threatening creatures that StP can hit too - Lord of Atlantis, Dark Confidant, Gaddock Teeg, Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Lackey, Disciple of the Vault, Qasali Pridemage, Steppe Lynx, Wild Nacatl. Once I'm at turn 3 or 4, creatures become less of a threat due to Shackles, countermagic being online, and shroud turtle. I just don't want to take 8-10 damage in those first 3 turns.

@Rancorous Fool:
I was underwhelmed when testing Guile. It just wasn't overly exciting whenever it hit play. I've always wanted Vendilion Clique but I can't justify it without a full set. It is very versatile and when I tested 2x in the deck, they allowed me to have some interesting plays. I just wanted to see them more but I could never fit a full 4x in, so I cut them altogether for consistency sake. I think I'm going to play around with my list some more and try Clique again.