[Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

[Iron Buddha]

short answer, zero jace.
I'm happy that you say that, as I don't even have Jace (but that shouldn't matter as we want to find the best list). However, I agree that running Jace with actual creature removal (StP+PtE or black removal + Pernicious deed) compared to running Jace without actual creature removal is a major difference.


short answer, three beaters.
The problem is...I'd say 90% of the time 2 win-cons > 3 win-cons. Most of the time two win-cons is enough, it's just for that remaining 10% that you may need an additional win-con. You finish them off with Shackles anyway, it's just when you're up against creatureless decks or decks that somehow get around Shackles (Shroud, etc.) that you actually need your win-cons and given a good draw-engine you find them when you need them. This is one of my reasons why I run 4 Mishra's Factory. The other reason is that Mishra's Factory is generally a good card that has many uses: Killing Jace, two Mishra's Fcatories killing Tarmogoyf, chumblocker, let me change roles more effectively...


i'm of the mindset that brainstorm is extremely powerful
I'm a big advocator of Brainstorm + Fetchlands. The only reason not to run Fetchlands is the lifeloss, but that is only two damage and you get a much better digging spell.
With Impulse it may happen that you have put all of your win-cons on the bottom of your library and not running any shuffle-effects you can't find them anymore.
Stfile is a non-issue IMO, as they have to leave open a land to cast Stifle, but if you are operating on instant speed, it's not very hard to play around Stifle. Besides they don't use it on Keg/bomb if they use it on a land.

3 ponder which I discovered good add
Preordain and Ponder are sorceries; more often than not that gives Tarmogoyf +1/+1 in the early-game.


the draw engine
I agree that 8 slots for the draw-engine is the minimum. 10 feels about right, 11+ is the upper end.
I've dropped to 8, because I run 4 Vedalken Shackles freeing up one slot (compared to a 10 card draw-engine and 3 Shackles). I think as long as I have a Shackles online a weaker draw-engine is acceptable. But I don't run a 11+ draw-engine, because I think that there aren't good enough draw spells available to warrant that (unlike Landstill that has Standstill); Impulse is solid, but it doesn't generate CA, and CA is how you win at the end of the day, so I rather go for CA via Shackles (thus 4 Shackles).

You're both running the BtB + Propaganda „lock“, the so called permanent based MUC. But how good is it? I'd say sometimes it's gamebreaking, but at other times it's weak, because they have some basics and you can't stop them pushing through the last points of damage.

I think that Mental Misstep is a 4 of. I don't know about Landstill: They have StP, PtE, and SS, so they may not need it, but MUC does absolutely need it...the fact that it stops a one mana beater and Aether Vial is enough to warrant it. No card except FoW can do that in MUC!

I run 4 Spell Snares because of Qasali Pridemage.

But how to fit in 4 MM and 4 SS? That is only possible by cutting Propaganda, as I see it.

I think this deck needs at least 23 lands, preferably 24. 23 is only acceptable with a good cantrip base.


as far as disk is concerned, i think it's too slow to really be considered at all.
Actually, I don't think that Disk is too slow, it's just that if my Disk gets destroyed by Krosan grip / Qasali Pridemage I'm way behind. I'm toying around with Disk as one of or two of.

[The Treefolk Master]

I am trying a more creature build with faeries using spellsutter sprite. What do you guys think of that card? To slow? Or to random since it doesn't always hit something that you want it to hit?

It sound as a good idea, and running Faeries + Jitte would give you a better game vs. aggro, since, let´s face it, Keg/Bomb is usually too slow to get the job done. You could also run Sowers + Kira, which is a great combo, but you won't be able to equip your dudes as easily.

As it stands now, I think the 2 viable versions of MUC are:

1. 3 colour splash (RUG) for EE. Shackles, Jace, 1 Sphinx, Relic of Progenitus, Brainstorm.

2. Faerie build, with Sowers, Kiras, Spellstutter, Vendilion, Jitte (maybe Sword of X and X post board, Fire and Ice is a beating vs. Tribal).

Thoughts?

[Kich867]

It sound as a good idea, and running Faeries + Jitte would give you a better game vs. aggro, since, let´s face it, Keg/Bomb is usually too slow to get the job done. You could also run Sowers + Kira, which is a great combo, but you won't be able to equip your dudes as easily.

As it stands now, I think the 2 viable versions of MUC are:

1. 3 colour splash (RUG) for EE. Shackles, Jace, 1 Sphinx, Relic of Progenitus, Brainstorm.

2. Faerie build, with Sowers, Kiras, Spellstutter, Vendilion, Jitte (maybe Sword of X and X post board, Fire and Ice is a beating vs. Tribal).

Thoughts?

That would be a different deck. Fortunately for MUC, what qualifies as a MUC deck is pretty easy. If it's a mono-blue control deck, it happens to be MUC. If it's a RUG control deck, it happens to not be mono colored and isn't MUC. If you just meant land, I don't really see why you specified which colors it would be. Several times recently in the thread people have mentioned splashing in MUC...and I don't really get how that doesn't click to them that if something is Mono-Blue, then making it U/B, makes it not Mono-Blue.

I do think faeries has potential, simply because you don't have to tap out on your turn to play them, instead of EOT'ing draw you can EOT a beater.

[sillyandrew]

You're both running the BtB + Propaganda „lock“, the so called permanent based MUC. But how good is it? I'd say sometimes it's gamebreaking, but at other times it's weak, because they have some basics and you can't stop them pushing through the last points of damage.

i really think that most lists need to run back to basics. if you can resolve back to basics as early as possible against an opponent tapped out on non-basic lands, you win. if you can resolve a back to basics against an opponent playing a tri-colored deck, you force them to fetch for the three to six basic lands their deck has, and potentially screw their tempo in the process. sure against most monocolored decks it's a dead card, but at three maindeck, this is a negligible disadvantage.

propaganda is probably weaker than back to basics, but it's protection the deck needs against enemy aggro plans. in a lot of games, the card actually ends up reading "during your opponent's turn, they can attack, or play spells, not both." also, if you can stack them, it's pretty much gg.

the two cards synergize fairly well too. imagine a situation where your opponent is locked into two basic lands and really needs to resolve an answer. this means they're not attacking. and on the flip side, what if you've got them on a decent clock? there almost forced to pay for propaganda in an effort to push their own clock forward, which essentially makes their entire hand useless.

i mean, there are plenty of arguments against the two cards, but they've always seemed like no brainers to me.

[C Rayz Walz]

yea, I think fae route is actually pretty good. I have been playing a lot with it and I really like how it plays as it fits my style. Do you think the deck should have BB? I don't really like adding another color so what are peoples thoughts on it.

Kira/ sower- It is pretty good, but I don't like Kira and equipment and I personally think jitte is so insanely powerful. I guess you can still have them both in your deck, but it just feel awkward.

Mental Misstep- I actually think this card is very over hype as the more I play with it. I think we might have to run it for obvious reason but I do think overall spell snare is the better card. Stopping vial, lackey, top, and wild are very important for our deck. I just do not like having so many situational counters, but I feel we have to play with those cards.

swords- I think sword of feast and famine or sword of fire/ice are both playable and will try them.

I also want to try terferi but he probably is not good enough, but I can see it being pretty good as well.

jace-I think he is to good not to play, but if you feel that he is to hard to protect or just don't like him then I think it is the right move since you have to play what you feel comfortable with. I love him and will play him but that is just my opinion.

Still having a hard time finding what the best draw suite for this deck.

[The Treefolk Master]

By splash, I meant just 1 Vlcanic ISland, 1 Tropical, 1 Mountain, 1 Forest; and I said RUG just to give an example, you could be UWB, UWR, or whatever. No other coloured spells :)

[Slate-]

Here is my list as of current. I tried mental misstep in place of the spell snares but found myself quickly wanting spell snares back. The crystal balls were put in there recently and im liking them more and more. They help with the mid game draw a bunch and I personally think they warrant the 2 spots that would otherwise have gone to fof.

As far as the fae MUC build goes, on paper I can't say i'm a fan, but I will try it.

Anyways, opinions / concerns / comments ?



// Lands
25 [UNH] Island

// Creatures
1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
3 [M11] Scroll Thief
1 [UD] Masticore

// Spells
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [GP] Repeal
4 [IA] Counterspell
2 [LRW] Cryptic Command
2 [DD2] Fact or Fiction
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [NE] Accumulated Knowledge
2 [M11] Crystal Ball
3 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [M11] Elixir of Immortality
SB: 2 [NE] Submerge
SB: 1 [TE] Meditate
SB: 2 [OD] Divert

[Awake]

Hi! It's my first post on this topic, and I have to admit, I love the deck since I eared about it!
I'm testing a version like this one :

23 Lands:
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
19 Island

11 Creatures:
2 Morphling
2 Sower of Temptation
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Spellstutter Sprite

26 Spells:
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Vedalken Shackles
2 Cryptic Command
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep

Sideboard:
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Back to Basics
4 Propaganda
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
2 Ratchet Bomb

I'm Pretty happy of the deck and I really love Mental Misstep and CC (but I would run 3 of them since I don't like to open a hand with more than 1, even 1 is too much :tongue:)
MM is for me a 4 of since it counters really a lot of things ^^ and more I test it, more I love it :smile:

I'm playing 4 fetches just to get less land cards in the late game (I'm used to mana flood ... must be a bad luck :cry:) but like I'm running them I would love to run BS or ... SdT ... I have the filling that the last one can be really good, now the problem I'm having is "what to remove" to enter ... let's say ... 3 Top

I'm not running jace even if I have enough creatures to defend it, simply cause I don't have it ^^ and at it's actual price, I'm not considering buying it ^^ (maybe if it's price drops)

My SB is really not optimal I think, I'm running Llawan against merfolk obv but I didn't really try it yet.
Propaganda and BtB are obv.
I'm running Relic cause I have some Dredge and Junk that use and abuse the grave :S (but again I didn't have that much time to try it)


So my questions are :
1/ What do you think about the deck I'm running with?
2/ Would you put BS or Top, and if so, what would you remove to enter it?
3/ What about the SB? I'm realy not sure about Teferi and Rachet bomb since I have the feeling that we could run better cards.

I hope my post brings something to the conversation.
(Sorry for my poor english, it's only my third language ^^)

[C Rayz Walz]

LOVE THE lIST! I wonder why lol(i play the same list if you didn't know)- how are the commands treating you in your list. I love jace but if you can't afford him I understand that. I can see CC being pretty good in your list since I feel you can race which is important. I am really considering going to 4 clique which may be to much. 4 fetches dont really affect your draw that much to warrant them imo. if I wanted to do the math I would be I am lazy and I would just run island. if you run fetches I would run either brainstorm( most like) or top and if you run top you can run CB in your board even tough I hate that card lol. Like I said this is the list that I am playing but I am playing 3 jace instead which I find awesome so if u can get them I would.

I played a lot of games today vs folk, the gate, goblins, thresh.

if the gate gets down BB it is pretty had other than that I find the match up pretty easy

Beat folk 2-1...all good games..lost to goblins 1-2 hard match but winnable-

beat thresh pretty easily..2-0..let me know of any other ideas you guys have

[Awake]

yeah I know you play more or less the same list (your list was the deck I took the make mine ^^ btw good work, I love it!)

I changed it a bit yesterday :
-1 Island
-1 Vedalken Shackles
+2 Jace (yeah I finnaly buy them ^^)

I'm not considering playing 3 Jace for the moment, I'll see when I receive them and I can try them, I'll maybe change my mind :)

The fetches can be good (with jace) but I'm still thinking that to be optimal i should run BS or top ... even if I have some doubts about them in this build.

I will not run CB in this deck although if I run Top, because i feel that it changes the deck too much, I don't have the mana curve for this (and I'm not that good with it ^^)

CC was good even if I missplayed sometimes with it, it buys time, and that's the most important thing for me specially with jace on the table.

Did one of you tryied Gigadrowse against aggro? A friend just proposed me it yesterday, and I don't know if it can be good or not. Let me know what you think about it :)

[C Rayz Walz]

one of my buddies suggested spire golem and for how janky it sounds I really like it. On turn 4 you still have 2 mana and he just gets better and better as the game goes on since he soon becomes free. he blocks a lot of things as well. Clique being a big one..trygon, wild nacatal, merfolks with only one lord out. I really really like him and I am trying to git him in the list. I just do not know how to fit him in. What do you guys think?

The reason why I said cb in the sb is because the deck has a hard time vs combo. I hate CB and you prolly are right that the curve isn'r right for this deck.

I think it sounds pretty bad. what does it actually do for us? For this deck tapping down their things for a turn doesn't seem good enough imo. How do you see it working in the deck?

[TheKingslayer]

How do you guys usually board for the Bant matchup? I haven't played in a couple years, and I'm hopping back in soon.

[Awake]

one of my buddies suggested spire golem and for how janky it sounds I really like it. On turn 4 you still have 2 mana and he just gets better and better as the game goes on since he soon becomes free. he blocks a lot of things as well. Clique being a big one..trygon, wild nacatal, merfolks with only one lord out. I really really like him and I am trying to git him in the list. I just do not know how to fit him in. What do you guys think?

The reason why I said cb in the sb is because the deck has a hard time vs combo. I hate CB and you prolly are right that the curve isn'r right for this deck.

I think it sounds pretty bad. what does it actually do for us? For this deck tapping down their things for a turn doesn't seem good enough imo. How do you see it working in the deck?

yeah, Spire golem looks sexy in our deck, I kind of love it, but what would you put off? oO i love the list like it is now (specialy since in board in 2 jace)
if you find 2 or 3 places to put the golem, let us know :)

[C Rayz Walz]

I took out SSsprite for them. I feel that they were overall the weakest card since they were good sometimes and bad other times and I don't really like that. What do you think should be taken out? depends on the bant version. I will prolly board in maybe sower and pierce.

[Awake]

I took out SSsprite for them. I feel that they were overall the weakest card since they were good sometimes and bad other times and I don't really like that. What do you think should be taken out? depends on the bant version. I will prolly board in maybe sower and pierce.

I'll don't like this choice, maybe because I love SSS, even if sometimes I have to cast it EOT, without any reason, just to make the next one bigger or to attack, I don't think that the golem is better than SSS, maybe I'm wrong, so I'm waiting your tests but having 20 counters MD is something I love to have.

[C Rayz Walz]

I can see what you mean. Don't get me wrong sometimes they are great. but late game a 1/1 is just bad where a 2/4 can block a lot of stuff. and some times they are a turn to slow. It could be me and I could be wrong about cutting them. just giving what I took out for them. Any other ideas Awake? I crush junk last night going 6-1 vs it which I was really happy with (spire golem version not that it would have matter I think)

[Awake]

I can see what you mean. Don't get me wrong sometimes they are great. but late game a 1/1 is just bad where a 2/4 can block a lot of stuff. and some times they are a turn to slow. It could be me and I could be wrong about cutting them. just giving what I took out for them. Any other ideas Awake? I crush junk last night going 6-1 vs it which I was really happy with (spire golem version not that it would have matter I think)

I beated junk 2-0 last week, with the SSS version, I was pretty happy too, I can see what you mean with the SSS, i'll have to give the golem a try, but I'm not sure :)

[sillyandrew]

in an effort to avoid sounding too harsh, i'll keep it short and just say that i think both spellstutter sprite and spire golem are really bad.

i don't think muc should ever run enough fairies to support spellstutter sprite (because then the deck is fairy tribal, and in my opinion very different).

i think that spire golem is a decent idea for budget lists, but in an optimized list there are tons of better options. this thread is for competitive (or as much so as we can get them in the current metagame) lists, and i feel like spire golem is an extremely weak choice.

the goal of our deck isn't to get a creature on the board fast, so spire golems affinity is sort of out of place. if you're looking for early game defense, i don't see why a wall wouldn't be a better choice in every aspect, and if you're looking for an early beater, i won't even start to list the better alternatives.

muc shouldn't be afraid of taking early damage (unless it's from a lackey or something dumb like that, in which case neither spellstutter sprite or spire golem will help you anyway) because we're playing CONTROL. you're not going to be winning each and every game with all of your life left, so it seems like a straight up bad idea to incorporate a card that is going to do nothing more than mitigate a few damage early on, and then either get stomped my a larger creature, or straight up removed later on. a deck like ours has to pretty much plan on taking damage before it can set up it's control lock and run the game according to it's own terms, so you're going to want creatures that either pack a lot of inherent hate, or are going to be immune from removal, or, both.

[C Rayz Walz]

I disagree with you. Spire golem is actually really good has he does a lot for us. My list runs a lot more creatures then the normal because I hate running cards like powder keg and other sweepers so the best way to fill that slot is either to splash or add in more creatures which I did. In my list I am running jitte and although you may not like it, it makes golem and other weak creatures a lot better. He a lone blocks so many important things for us. Sure, I am making their stp use able but with shackles and clique I am already making their removal use able so I don't really care about that. I like the fact that he can come down turn 3, and the later he goes on the better he gets imo. Also, have your tried him? if you haven't and I am not trying to be rude then don't speak. if you have tried him and you don't like him then don't play it. I think he is really good and not a budget card at all. Just a different opinion if you have tried him. Also, saving a few damage can be all you need to win so I think that is a pretty bad statement to use.

SSS- he is fine. he a lone counters things at 1cc and the more you get the better he is. I do think sometimes he is pretty insane and other times he is pretty bad so I change it to spire and have been really happy with him.

[sillyandrew]

i think that spellstutter sprite is probably a better choice than spire golem, but i think it reaches it's full potential in a deck that supports more fairies than oldschool muc can (ie: fairie tribal). in a list that runs six to eight fairies, i suppose spellstutter sprite is a decent choice, but nothing more than just that, DECENT. in most cases, i'd rather run more counters. when i playtest with the spellstutters, i always find myself wishing they were a better counterspell.

i'll agree that a list with jitte makes spire golem better, but i still think that there are better creatures that could hold a jitte, or any equipment for that matter, but i'll leave it at that. i'll admit that i've never playtested spire golems, but that's only because i think they're too bad to even consider.

as far as actual constructive criticism goes, i'd really suggest playtesting rainbow efreets over spire golems. granted, the efreet hits the board after the golem can, but once it resolves, it resolves for good. also, i think people forget that block/phashing walls literally everything that doesn't have trample. the efreet swings for more than the golden does, blocks more than the golem can, and evades more than the golem can, all in exchange for a little investment in mana (which is something that a halfway decent muc list shouldn't have to worry about anyway).

[Awake]

i think that spellstutter sprite is probably a better choice than spire golem, but i think it reaches it's full potential in a deck that supports more fairies than oldschool muc can (ie: fairie tribal). in a list that runs six to eight fairies, i suppose spellstutter sprite is a decent choice, but nothing more than just that, DECENT. in most cases, i'd rather run more counters. when i playtest with the spellstutters, i always find myself wishing they were a better counterspell.

i'll agree that a list with jitte makes spire golem better, but i still think that there are better creatures that could hold a jitte, or any equipment for that matter, but i'll leave it at that. i'll admit that i've never playtested spire golems, but that's only because i think they're too bad to even consider.

as far as actual constructive criticism goes, i'd really suggest playtesting rainbow efreets over spire golems. granted, the efreet hits the board after the golem can, but once it resolves, it resolves for good. also, i think people forget that block/phashing walls literally everything that doesn't have trample. the efreet swings for more than the golden does, blocks more than the golem can, and evades more than the golem can, all in exchange for a little investment in mana (which is something that a halfway decent muc list shouldn't have to worry about anyway).

I have to admit that the rainbow efreet looks "sexy" ... but I like SSS for the counterspell-like effect + creature.
BUt i have the feeling that if i put it out, it's a complete different list, cause clique looses a bit of interest (although it's still a good card), and sower ... well it's sower, it's good (but in my test I didn't like it that much I have to say, I had nothing to target when it came into play (i already had shackles or there was nothing to target at all ....).
the card i have doubts about is the morphling ... I have the feeling that it doesn't do enough because when it enters into play it's sometimes too late or sometimes it come out and just love it! I have the same feeling than C rayz has about the SSS.

I'll maybe run a the efreet as a one shoot or two of them at the place of the morphling but I'm not sure about.

the thing I'm looking for in advice about the Side, I have the feeling that my side is not that good ...
I'ml running for the moment :
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Back to Basics
SB: 4 Propaganda
SB: 1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
and i don't know if it's good like that or not.

[sillyandrew]

I have to admit that the rainbow efreet looks "sexy" ... but I like SSS for the counterspell-like effect + creature.
BUt i have the feeling that if i put it out, it's a complete different list, cause clique looses a bit of interest (although it's still a good card), and sower ... well it's sower, it's good (but in my test I didn't like it that much I have to say, I had nothing to target when it came into play (i already had shackles or there was nothing to target at all ....).
the card i have doubts about is the morphling ... I have the feeling that it doesn't do enough because when it enters into play it's sometimes too late or sometimes it come out and just love it! I have the same feeling than C rayz has about the SSS.

I'll maybe run a the efreet as a one shoot or two of them at the place of the morphling but I'm not sure about.

the thing I'm looking for in advice about the Side, I have the feeling that my side is not that good ...
I'ml running for the moment :
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Back to Basics
SB: 4 Propaganda
SB: 1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
and i don't know if it's good like that or not.

yes, the lists that can support spellstutter sprites are going to look very different from lists that don't, i think largely because running small creatures like that is an entirely different style of play, and requires different construction in order to work, even though both lists are technically "mono-blue control." maybe what has me a little on edge here, is that your creature heavy lists are starting to edge towards "mono-blue aggro/control," which will play very differently than a dedicated control deck.

if you have doubts about morphling, it's either because you haven't played with him, or your deck doesn't run enough mana-sources to support him. additionally, most of this thread is dedicated to morphling discussion, so just scroll back so you can read about how good he is from people other than me.

in regards to your sideboard, the card that seems most out of place is propaganda. if your siding in all of your propagandas game two against an aggro opponent, it probably means you lost game one, and i can't see them making a huge impact on the comeback wins. don't get me wrong, the card is utterly fantastic, but i feel like the sideboard isn't it's home.

i don't know how i feel about teferi. in the limited playtesting i've given him, he's never done much. also, you can't really count on a singleton sideboard card very much, even if you're running a lot of dig. there are going to be matches where you never see him, nevermind get him to stick on the board.

i think hydroblast (and it's mirrors) and chill are some of the best sideboard cards we have.

[C Rayz Walz]

I have done more testing and finally decided that SSS needs to come out. There are to many times that he is just plain bad for us and I hate that. I know that SillyAndrew does not like spire golem but I really really like him. I would not play him though if I did not run jitte. I get what you mean that this is turning differently then the normal MUC but I don't think that is a bad thing. When I play this deck I still feel that it is MUC.

Morphling- I still love him and feel that he is still good.I love how he is offense and defense in one creature. We could also be playing him differently making him stronger and weaker in ones eye and When I untap with him it is very rarely do I lose. Also, with jitte it will just end the game. If you don't like him then it is pretty simple don't play him. I personally don't like rainbow Efreet hence me not playing. Not saying that it isn't a good creature I personally would just rather have Morphling or clique, or even spire golem. 4 toughness is huge for him and that is what I really like.

Teferi- I don't like him. I tried him and never was pleased. I think he can be good but it might come down to play style or the games you face. I might sb if control picks up but even at that I doubt it.

[Slate-]

I have done more testing and finally decided that SSS needs to come out. There are to many times that he is just plain bad for us and I hate that. I know that SillyAndrew does not like spire golem but I really really like him. I would not play him though if I did not run jitte. I get what you mean that this is turning differently then the normal MUC but I don't think that is a bad thing. When I play this deck I still feel that it is MUC.

Morphling- I still love him and feel that he is still good.I love how he is offense and defense in one creature. We could also be playing him differently making him stronger and weaker in ones eye and When I untap with him it is very rarely do I lose. Also, with jitte it will just end the game. If you don't like him then it is pretty simple don't play him. I personally don't like rainbow Efreet hence me not playing. Not saying that it isn't a good creature I personally would just rather have Morphling or clique, or even spire golem. 4 toughness is huge for him and that is what I really like.

Teferi- I don't like him. I tried him and never was pleased. I think he can be good but it might come down to play style or the games you face. I might sb if control picks up but even at that I doubt it.

The direction you're taking the deck certainly feels like faerie stompy. You play about 8 less creatures and 8 more counterspells / draw. If you want to play an aggro variance of MUC you should drop the 1/1's and 2/2's and throw in those 3/4's and 4/3's.

I also don't like spire golem and I'm not sure in what situation you've found it to outshine any of the other established win cons. The 4 toughness is pretty irrelevant when you compare it to phasing or morphling. I do understand you can drop it on turn three and have a decent body, but wouldn't propaganda or another similar lock piece be better in the long run?

I'd like to see your updated list though. I'm curious if you run sword of feast and famine.

[C Rayz Walz]

When I play the deck it doesn't play like faerie stompy. It still feels like a control deck when I play it. The 4 toughness is def not irrelevant. It can block clique, wild nactal, and every goblin a big one being goblin piledriver. It also doesn't die to a single bolt or chain which is a big reason why I would never play sea drake. Now the 3/4 I will consider. A lot of times I feel that propaganda does nothing for me. I personally want it only in one or 2 match ups so overall I don't really like it in the main deck. Also, for everyone that keeps saying that you don't like spire golem. Have you guys actually tried him? I know that he looks very bad on paper, but when you play with him he is actually really good. I feel that you just look at him and automatically say that he is bad with out trying him. I am still working some things out so I will post my new list later but I am considering Sword of f&f.

[Slate-]

Faerie stompy is, from what I can tell, basically the same strategy you're trying to accomplish. I don't see why you dont add the sol lands and drop the 1/1 cip creatures for some fat flyers and cotv.

As far as spire golem. I only meant, by saying that the toughness was irrelevant, was that block phasing or pumping morphling is practically the same effect. The propaganda comment was in response to you saying that you can drop spire golem on turn three and soak up damage. Well, you can drop propaganda on turn three also and soak up some damage.

We definatley have diverging ideologies when it comes to MUC though. I prefer to drop a creature that can go all the way with little or no help (although I have been meaning to try out Oona, I haven't played with her enough to decide if I like her or not). I do like jitte... a lot... but for the life of me and I can't see it ever being in a deck and it still being called dedicated control.

But back to spire golem, yes he definitely looks bad on paper. The opportunity cost of playing him in a deck where card quality matters a lot is far too high. To be honest I'd rather rock 4 rainbow efreets then 4 spire golems, and that's not even necessary.

If you're considering sword of feast and famine I suggest you try it, I think it's the best sword for a control heavy deck. When I see your list, I'll give it a run and maybe you can change my mind about bad on paper good in play mr. spire golem.

[sillyandrew]

oona isn't a terrible idea in my opinion. she's a good way to make full use of your mana eot if you don't have anything else to play, and you can't argue with the 5/5 body.

i've opted out of oona for two reasons however. the first, is that she's a little too expensive for my taste to not have any sort or inherent protection. the second, is that there are a lot of matchups where you aren't going to want to use her ability at all, given your opponents graveyard interactions. i'm the sort of player that doesn't want to give the opponent any sort of leverage whatsoever (especially playing dedicated control) so that pushed oona into the no column for me.

all of that being said, in the right situation, oona is a ferocious beast. her ability to create faeries could be compared to morphlings untapping, because either way, you have blockers for the next turn, and against decks that swarm, i'd argue this ability is better. combine these little fliers with a propaganda/shackles on the table, and nothing gets through, while she can beat for the win.

also, it may be a moot point, but you can't doomblade oona.

i'm not sure if i'd run oona over sphinx of jwar isle though. (oona = sphinx < morphling.)

[Awake]

I tryied Oona ... and seriously ... I never think it's good when I topdeck it, or I would love a CC or something else, whatever, but not oona ..; too bad I buy one foil for nothing ^^

now seriously speaking, I tryied the deck a bit more ... and I really have the feeling that ... it's bad T_T ... I love this deck, but everytime I'm playing against landstill, dredstill or New Horizon, I loose, because I have too many lands, not enough lands ... or whatever ... I really have bad hands =S Probably it's me, a few weeks ago I played against new horizon and I had an "easy" win 2-0 against it ^^.

now with SSS, i start to have some problems ... I have the same feeling that everyone, it's or really good, or really bad ... there is no middle =S
I start to have some questions about the deck in itselves, or the build we are going to, I think I'll try a list like Sillyandrew plays (btw, can you give us the actual list you're playing with? thx)
and I'll see the difference.

I'm still a big fan of CC, so I'll run it anyway ^^.
I personally think that BS + fetch + sphinx of jwar isle + jace = roxx ^^ but it starts to be difficult to enter everything in a list.

EDIT:
I'll try a list like this one :
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
18 [UNH] Island
1 [ZEN] Sphinx of Jwar Isle
2 [US] Morphling
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 [UD] Powder Keg
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
2 [LRW] Cryptic Command
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
3 [VI] Impulse
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [7E] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep

I'm looking forward to have your advice and to know what you think about it. I go to spain soon, so I won't be available for a while, but as I come back I'll test again :)

[serendib]

Gerry Thompson made us see how a draw-go control deck is still viable.

My idea is that back to basics needs to fit a draw-go deck. casting B2B after countering most of opponent spells is a huge play even if the opponent runs 3 basic lands. It's MUC's bomb and one of the reason why we play the deck.

I played Ophidian Muc back some years (2007 & 2008). http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/visualview.php?iddeck=13295&id=1226
I think jace TMS, s.snare & m.misstep are the perfect substitute to ophidian, force spike and mana leak in the old draw-go muc that made the hystory of the archetype.

something like that is what I mean:

4 force of will
4 counterspell
4 spell snare
3 mental misstep

4 brainstorm
4 fact or fiction

3 vedalken shackles
2 back to basics

3 repeal
1 ratchet bomb
1 powder keg

3 jace TMS
2 morphling

18 island
2 polluted delta
2 flooded strand

side:
2 relic of progenitus
1 surgical extraction
1 back to basics
3 Llawan, cephalid empress
2 nevinyrral's disk
3 submerge
2 pithing needle
1 masticore

what you think ?

[dsck]

Gerry Thompson made us see how a draw-go control deck is still viable.

My idea is that back to basics needs to fit a draw-go deck. casting B2B after countering most of opponent spells is a huge play even if the opponent runs 3 basic lands. It's MUC's bomb and one of the reason why we play the deck.

I played Ophidian Muc back some years (2007 & 2008). http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/visualview.php?iddeck=13295&id=1226
I think jace TMS, s.snare & m.misstep are the perfect substitute to ophidian, force spike and mana leak in the old draw-go muc that made the hystory of the archetype.

something like that is what I mean:

4 force of will
4 counterspell
4 spell snare
3 mental misstep

4 brainstorm
4 fact or fiction

3 vedalken shackles
2 back to basics

3 repeal
1 ratchet bomb
1 powder keg

3 jace TMS
2 morphling

18 island
2 polluted delta
2 flooded strand

side:
2 relic of progenitus
1 surgical extraction
1 back to basics
3 Llawan, cephalid empress
2 nevinyrral's disk
3 submerge
2 pithing needle
1 masticore

what you think ?

How do yu defeat Merfolk? I would play more fetches with 7 brainstorm effects in the deck.

[serendib]

I've just made changes and testing it like that. I works extremely good.

4 force of will
4 counterspell
4 spell snare
3 mental misstep

4 brainstorm
3 repeal
4 fact or fiction

3 vedalken shackles
2 back to basics
1 engineered explosives
1 ratchet bomb

3 jace TMS
2 morphling

14 island
2 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
1 tundra
1 plains

side:
1 back to basics
2 relic of progenitus
1 surgical extraction
3 submerge
4 peacekeeper
2 nevinyrral's disk
2 pithing needle

I defeat merfolk post side via peacekeeper which is better than Llawan because merfolk play 3 of them too in their sideboard.

[sillyandrew]

@awake: here's the decklist i've been running with recently. i've been toying with changes, but this is the list i keep coming back to at the end of the day. obviously, mental misstep is the newest addition, and i'm working on finding a way to fit a fourth copy in.



maindeck:
24 islands

2 morphling
1 rainbow efreet
3 vedalken shackles

4 force of will
4 counterspell
3 mental misstep

3 back to basics
3 propaganda
3 powder keg

3 fact or fiction
3 impulse
4 brainstorm

sideboard:
2 pithing needle
1 back to basics
4 relic of progenitus
4 mindbreak trap
4 hydroblast


in regards to my list, i'm open to suggestions as to what i should drop for my fourth mental misstep, or if the deck really needs it at all. the MUC thread hasn't seen nearly as much discussion on mental misstep as other threads have, and i think there's a lot to be said for it.

--------


My idea is that back to basics needs to fit a draw-go deck. casting B2B after countering most of opponent spells is a huge play even if the opponent runs 3 basic lands. It's MUC's bomb and one of the reason why we play the deck.

i absolutely agree that back to basics is a huge card. it's everything you've said and more. with all of that in mind though, why only run two copies? sure, you've a third copy in the sideboard, but i feel like there are going to be game ones where you want to see one and don't, and even more game two and threes where you're going to want four copies. i'm of the stubborn opinion that there need to be four copies of back to basics in almost every MUC list, maindeck, or sideboard. i really think it's that good, even if there are going to be matches where you side it out as a dead card.

--------

having seen it on quite a few lists now, is eighteen islands and four fetches really a solid mana base?

you're looking at eighteen cards that actually tap for blue, and four cards that thin our deck (granted marginally) and i'd really consider that a disadvantage. MUC wants to be hitting land-drops well into the late game, and if we've thinned our land count, we narrow our chance of doing this. not to mention the unwanted damage that you're going to take, at the benefit of a shuffle effect for brainstorm? brainstorm already interacts fantastically with impulse and fact or fiction, and while i recognize that shuffle effects turn them into ancestral recalls, but fetches just don't seem to belong in MUC lists that don't splash.

even if you take the fetchland pro/con out of the equation, are twenty two lands enough? i think that's to absolute lowest you'd ever want to drop your land count to.

--------

in playtesting, i've been having more and more problems running a list without non-creature removal. vedalken shackles, powder kegs, and to a lesser extent, morphling all do a pretty good job of getting troublesome creatures out of the way, but if non-creature threat gets through our counter-lock, things get dirty. are repeal and echoing truth really our best options?

[evanmartyr]

you're looking at eighteen cards that actually tap for blue, and four cards that thin our deck (granted marginally) and i'd really consider that a disadvantage. MUC wants to be hitting land-drops well into the late game, and if we've thinned our land count, we narrow our chance of doing this. not to mention the unwanted damage that you're going to take, at the benefit of a shuffle effect for brainstorm? brainstorm already interacts fantastically with impulse and fact or fiction, and while i recognize that shuffle effects turn them into ancestral recalls, but fetches just don't seem to belong in MUC lists that don't splash.

Well, you could run Fetches and Brainstorm or...not Fetches, and not Brainstorm. They kind of go hand in hand.


Arerepeal and echoing truth really our best options?

Yes. By far. At least regarding Repeal. Whether you choose to go with Echoing Truth, Capsize, Repulse, Chain of Vapor, etc, is probably dependent on your meta. I get the feeling that this is the exact problem that forced the Uw Landstill decks at Orlando to splash for Swords to Plowshares; they ran enough countermagic to not worry so much about non-creature threats, but they needed answers to KotR, Tarmogoyf, etc.

[Slate-]

@sillyandrew

Brainstorm and fetches go hand in hand. If you want to run either or both, you should drop the powder kegs and throw in some engineered explosives, it's a decent option and this style has, in the past, put up the most tourney placings after a quick check on deckcheck. This also allows you for many more sideboard options.

The only glaring omission i see in your deck is spell snare. That card hits so many more threats than mm in my opinion. The 2 major mm threats, being lackey and vial for this deck. I haven't been inclined to run it yet. Still testing. Although currently, like a lot of other people I'm sure, I've been fiddling around with gerry t's (practically mono blue with a white splash for swords) standstill. It achieves the same style of play I've been after in a competitive deck - draw, island, go.

As far as your land count goes, I've always gone with 24-25. Missing a land drop after turn 3 can snowball into a game loss.

[Awake]

I modified my deck, with a splash for EE (I put some Red but just because of my fetches, I have 4 scalding tarn, nothing else ^^)

1 Mountain
1 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
17 Island
1 Morphling
1 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Propaganda
1 Impulse
2 Cryptic Command
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep

SB: 6 Cards to add
SB: 1 Propaganda
SB: 3 Back to Basics
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress

I'm open to any suggestion.

[serendib]

I modified my deck, with a splash for EE (I put some Red but just because of my fetches, I have 4 scalding tarn, nothing else ^^)

1 Mountain
1 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
17 Island
1 Morphling
1 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Propaganda
1 Impulse
2 Cryptic Command
3 Fact or Fiction
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep

SB: 6 Cards to add
SB: 1 Propaganda
SB: 3 Back to Basics
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress

I'm open to any suggestion.

I suggest you back to basics maindeck intead of propaganda.
b2b alone (wihtout propaganda) in the maindeck is much more effective than propaganda is.
you need more 2 U-fetches also.
3 cryptic command and 0 impulse.

[Awake]

I make the changement you said : I removed the impulse and i putted 3 CC and I switched the propaganda for the b2b. I'll try it like that.
The think I don't know is the 2 U-fetches more ... I'm affraid about one thing : don't have enough land in the late game.

EDIT: I'm affraid about the mana ... is 23 lands enough? and to run EE, is just 2 colours enough?
I wonder if a mana base like this wouldn't be good to run EE :
1 Plain
1 Mountain
1 Tundra
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
15 Island
which means we are running 24 Lands and 2 Whites for maybe in the SB a card like 4 peacekeeper (Damn! I love this card)
what do you guys think?

[TheKingslayer]

If you splash red, you may as well SB volcanic fallout.

Goblins shit themselves and mermaids cry.

[Awake]

Yeah but more I think about it, more I hate the idea of splashing, I wanna stay in a MUC, not a NearlyMUC ...
the thing I'm worried about is seeing too much creatures in front of me ... so yeah EE was a good solution, but I'll stay in a MUC and put the keg again I think

[TheKingslayer]

I think keg is invaluable against manlands as it stands.

[Awake]

I aggre with what you say, and for me the "best" option should be to run 1 vol + 1 montain and 2 EE ... but I really have to test it

[Climax]

this is my current MUC list. Have some things Im not really sure about.

24 Island
2 Consecrated Sphinx
4 Ratchet Bomb
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Karn Liberated
4 Vedalken Shackles
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Spell Snare
4 Mental Misstep
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

SB:
3 Spell Pierce
4 Repeal
4 Propaganda
4 Back to Basics

1. Karn: seems to be better than i thought at first. Sure he is slow...very slow, but sometimes troublesome cards pass through. He handles the problem.
2. Ratchet Bomb: thinkin of splitting with Powder Keg. In my meta are some enchantress players. And without MD propaganda & Back to Basics Ratchet Bomb feels better.
3. Consescrated Sphinx: With the printing of MM it is easy to protect it from the no1 removal in the format. And a 6/7 Goyf is not so common as an 5/6 Goyf. Maybe going down to 1?
4. Shackles//Jace: Not sure about playing just 3 MD. Same for Jace
5. Back to Basics//Repeal. Do they really belong in the SB? Sometimes it feels as I should maindeck them.

Looking forward to your help.
You guys are great.

Climax

[Iron Buddha]

I personally don't like that you're not running Brainstorm. Isn't BS considered the best card of the format?!
Consecrated Sphinx looks unnecessary if you're already running Jace TMS.
Karn is way too slow... 4 Jace TMS, 4 Shackles, your deck is chock full of lategame power.

[sillyandrew]

this is my current MUC list. Have some things Im not really sure about.

24 Island
2 Consecrated Sphinx
4 Ratchet Bomb
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Karn Liberated
4 Vedalken Shackles
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Spell Snare
4 Mental Misstep
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

SB:
3 Spell Pierce
4 Repeal
4 Propaganda
4 Back to Basics

1. Karn: seems to be better than i thought at first. Sure he is slow...very slow, but sometimes troublesome cards pass through. He handles the problem.
2. Ratchet Bomb: thinkin of splitting with Powder Keg. In my meta are some enchantress players. And without MD propaganda & Back to Basics Ratchet Bomb feels better.
3. Consescrated Sphinx: With the printing of MM it is easy to protect it from the no1 removal in the format. And a 6/7 Goyf is not so common as an 5/6 Goyf. Maybe going down to 1?
4. Shackles//Jace: Not sure about playing just 3 MD. Same for Jace
5. Back to Basics//Repeal. Do they really belong in the SB? Sometimes it feels as I should maindeck them.

Looking forward to your help.
You guys are great.

Climax

honestly, how is karn? when I first saw him, I thought he'd be worth play testing, but I currently only have a single copy of him (I don't think I'd run more than two). sure, he's slow, but so is our deck. My main concern is that his +4 ability is dead once the opponent is in top deck mode, which something out deck typically tries to stall into anyway.

That being said, I really think your list needs more draw/dig cards, even if you only work in cantrips. I don't think I'd ever run a muc list with less than eight dedicated draw spells. I suppose you can justify jace as draw, and even the sphinx, but that makes you're cheapest draw spell 4cmc, and that seems troublesome.

if you're meta supports it, stick with ratchet bomb, especially if you're not running propaganda and back to basics. I'd just hate to see you in a situation where you need to pop it at four, and end up taking jace with it.

Consecrated sphinx is something I don't think we've talked about enough. As far as a clock goes, he's a turn slower than jwar isle, but is the extra toughness worth it? In regards to his draw ability, it should hypothetically win you the game, as you'll be holding answers for whatever it is the opponent does from then on in. I just wonder if it actually ends up playing out that way. I've never play tested him myself. It seems like he'd be better if he could draw you into targeted removal, and start clearing the board. to me, he just seems like a strictly defensive card, not a threat to our opponents (which is what we want our late game creatures to be: threats) in our deck. our soft-locks, our jaces, and our shackles should all be online before he can even hit the table. Do we need more defense at that point? Does sphinx just turn into a four power beater? I'll have to start play testing him. I'm curious.

If your running repeal, it should probably be main deck. id try and get 3-4 copies in your list going -1 jace, -1 mental misstep/spell snare, -1/2 karn (depending on how he plays). (The only reason i suggest dropping a jace, is because youre not running brainstorm + shuffle effects to get rid of unwanted copies, or impulse to dig past him and avoid dead top decks. As a win condition, three of seems plenty, though I totally understand why you'd want four.)

As far as back to basics, either main deck 3-4, or drop them entirely, I say. At the very least, your sideboard needs room for graveyard hate.

[Climax]

Thanks for your help Iron Buddha & SillyAndrew.

After a whole weekend of playtesting marathon I decided that Repeal has to be maindeck.
Karn was good in my opinion. Not more not less. But I think thats to few. Legacy is a format of great cards. Not good cards. The same goes for Sphinx.
Between Shackles and Jaces I dont think another Wincondition is needed.
So I cut both and started to play Repeal MD.

That way I have also one cantrip more.

My biggest issue now are the B2Bs. They are sometimes great. But sometimes they just suck.
I think there isn't no space in the MD either.
I guess Relic of Progenitus is the best form of gy removal for MUC.

Here is the up to date list:


24 Island
3 Ratchet Bomb
1 Powder Keg
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Vedalken Shackles
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Spell Snare
4 Mental Misstep
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Repeal

SB:

2 Spell Pierce
4 Propaganda
4 Back to Basics
1 Powder Keg
4 Relic of Progenitus

[serendib]

nice list climax.
yesterday I made a little change in the maindeck and tested vs rock (which I never considered a good match up). I won 4 - 1.
(he was playing and aggro list with 3 mox diamond & 1 bird of paradise, 10 discard spells, 3/4 zenith and qasali too but with 2 vindicate only)

I played this:

22 lands (6 fetches 1 plains 1 tundra 14 island)

2 morphling
3 jace

4 brainstorm
3 fact or fiction
3 repeal

4 force of will
4 counterspell
3 spell snare
3 mental misstep

3 back to basics
3 vedalken shackles
3: 1 engineered explosives + 1 ratchet bomb + 1 powder keg

(I am still not sure about which of these three I prefere, so for the moment I'm splitting them. Any way their count is 3)

I killed him 2 times via morphling facing his creatures 1 via jace 1 via vedalken shackles... but actually 3 games my winning play was back to basics...

mana has not been a problem.

Brainstorm is extremely important in a draw-go build because we have a lot of counters and sometimes we have the wrong one in hand.
If we run 4 brainstorm, we can cut down to 3 misstep to my view.

and again: Back to basics is a huge card. If you drop b2b vs a tri-colour-deck (80% of opponents are use 3 colours) and then bounce opponent creatures with jace or repeal, they will have big trouble to cast them again... and from the moment you drop back to basics, you will need half of the counters you would have needed to play without back to basics on field because they can play no more than half of their spells... (opponent speed becomes 50% IF he can drop something ... )

[Dalapin]

So where's the discussion on the newest list that just won an open? A list with no EE, Rachet bomb, powder keg, Morphling, or other cards this thread is prone to discussing....

[Kich867]

That's..pretty vague, where's the decklist, what tournament was it, I browsed through the tournament threads and nothing really stuck out so..

[C Rayz Walz]

I actually don't really like his list that much. Field seems not that great with hymn being so popular along with pridemage and other duress effects. I also don't like that he only runs 2 CS and only 3 snare. Misdirection is interesting and so is extraction but I don't think they are really that good either. What are other peoples thoughts?

[sclabman]

I do like the Energy Fields as a sideboard card against Merfolk.

[JJ_JKidd]

Mono-Blue Control
A Legacy Magic deck, by Chris Kronenberger


Artifacts
1 Oblivion Stone
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles

Creatures
2 Sower of Temptation

Enchantments
2 Back to Basics
3 Energy Field

Instants
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
2 Cryptic Command
2 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare

Legendary Creatures
2 Vendilion Clique

Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Basic Lands
16 Island

Lands
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard:
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Energy Flux
2 Mind Harness
3 Misdirection
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Llawan, Cephalid Empress

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38409

[Climax]

I have to say I dont get that list.
It seems so unfocused. And I hardly believe that 3 Spell Snare are just wrong in Legacy:really:.
Further more Im not a fan of the fields/Cryptic commands. They seem too weak.
And I dont see the reason in Surgical Extraction. The targeted card will still remain into the graveyard. So it sucks vs LftL and against Ichorid. Why the hell should I play graveyard hate then? And 3 Energy Field + 3 Llawan seems overkill in my opinion.
Anyway...

What do you guys think is the best way to fit B2Bs in the MD?
Is 4 MD the only real way? Are 2/3 enough?

[Jander78]

Further more Im not a fan of the fields/Cryptic commands. They seem too weak.
I actually like Energy Field and Cryptic Command. Field can buy you time against certain decks; I'm not sure I'm completely sold on Energy Field, but it can be a very strong sideboard option. Command is a very good mid-game Counter / Draw / Bounce spell. With Misstep in the format, you have a lot of early answers, making Command a viable card to make an appearance for the mid-late game.



And I dont see the reason in Surgical Extraction. The targeted card will still remain into the graveyard. So it sucks vs LftL and against Ichorid. Why the hell should I play graveyard hate then? Anyway...
Not sure I understand this. Surgical Extraction does remove the card in the graveyard as well as any in their hand and library. It works the same as Extirpate.



What do you guys think is the best way to fit B2Bs in the MD?
Is 4 MD the only real way? Are 2/3 enough?
Back to Basics is generally considered a win condition in Mono-U (see game 1 from SCG Louisville against A.J. Sacher). Running 2/3 is usually fine. I prefer 3 myself (2 MD and 1 SB) as it's not a bad thing to have early on against decks that it will just win against.

[Climax]

Not sure I understand this. Surgical Extraction does remove the card in the graveyard as well as any in their hand and library. It works the same as Extirpate.



Ah, totally right. Forget what I said. For a unknown reason i thought it doesnt search graveyards too.
FACEPALM
That way.... I will steal the tech.

[yawg07]

That's Chris's list he just placed 1st with at SCG Kentucky. He's been working on it a long time.
Lives close to me, we played a lot.

I'm not sure I ever truly understood Energy Field, but it is really good and can buy you the time you need.
Mental Misstep pushed this deck back into the light, if you ask me.
But yeah Back to Basics will just annihilate some decks, and I'm pretty sure Snare is a meta choice. With Team America being so damn popular, it is really good.

[Kich867]

I feel like a morphling or two in that list, in conjunction with energy field, could be quite deadly. It's nearly impossible to remove morphling, you don't have to worry about them hitting you back, few creatures in legacy fly, and it's not like Energy Field prevents you from playing things, just countering them.

Still being able to drop threats, while making it totally pointless for your opponent to attack you, seems incredibly ideal. Most decks tend to run spot removal, not things like Diabolic Edict, which means unless you horribly misplay, Morphling isn't dying, they can't block him, and they're on a ~4 turn clock with no hope of coming back until they remove energy field.

[RexFTW]

Chris said during an on air interview that Surgical Extraction was to beat hightide. However, it does not stop High Tide cold as he thinks it does unless they are not playing candelabras. I think the rest of his card choices are optimal.

[serendib]

I have to say I dont get that list.
It seems so unfocused. And I hardly believe that 3 Spell Snare are just wrong in Legacy:really:.
Further more Im not a fan of the fields/Cryptic commands. They seem too weak.
And I dont see the reason in Surgical Extraction. The targeted card will still remain into the graveyard. So it sucks vs LftL and against Ichorid. Why the hell should I play graveyard hate then? And 3 Energy Field + 3 Llawan seems overkill in my opinion.
Anyway...

What do you guys think is the best way to fit B2Bs in the MD?
Is 4 MD the only real way? Are 2/3 enough?

I would be interesting to see the breakdown of the even, so to see how many merfolks were there. I think they were a lot, really a lot because merfolk is strong at the moment and because it's the cheepest competitive deck. 3 llawan + 3 field is not overkill.

Anyway I would be more careful in judging the build that made the best result in at least one year. This was not a 20/30/40 people turnament... maybe succeeding in 8/9 rounds + top 8 means that the deck was not that random... don't you think ?! Yes it has a lot of 2X, but the structure is not random. For example 8 hard counters, 4 take control effects, 4 bouncers, 8 cards make you manipulate/draw + 3 jace ... and so on.

Last year a similar list reached day2 at gp madrid (2227 players) and it had 3 energy field too.

Personally I wouldn't play energy field maindeck.
But it's a great choice in a 200 players turnament where I expect a lot of merfolks and team america. Nevermind if it is week vs TA... muc feels good vs Team America anyway... (turnaments in my area are much smaller. I.E. between 70 and 120 players)

back to basics, fetchlands and brainstorm need to be in a competitive muc.

Surgical Extraction is much faster than relic and you can play it also vs combo decks after countering some spells...

befor talk, think and test.

[Astrix]

I agree his list is very tight and smart in that meta.
Also about cryptic command apart from the fact that it is a versatile hard counter you
can use it to bounce energy field if u are in desperate need to counter a spell and then replay it on your turn...

[C Rayz Walz]

ofcourse it works, as I think no one was really saying that. I do think field is pretty bad in the current meta since hymn is so popular and I personally feel as I have tested many field versions and I know that I do not like only 1 Ostone. The deck is obviously really good, but I do disagree with certain numbers and for me at least there really is no way around it.

[sillyandrew]

Mono-Blue Control
A Legacy Magic deck, by Chris Kronenberger


Artifacts
1 Oblivion Stone
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles

Creatures
2 Sower of Temptation

Enchantments
2 Back to Basics
3 Energy Field

Instants
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
2 Cryptic Command
2 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare

Legendary Creatures
2 Vendilion Clique

Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Basic Lands
16 Island

Lands
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard:
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Energy Flux
2 Mind Harness
3 Misdirection
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Llawan, Cephalid Empress

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38409

i don't think this list is as unorthodox as everyone seems to be making it out to be. if you break it down card by card, it makes complete sense to me. (well, not complete, but you know...)

energy field is the card that seems to be attracting the most attention, and i really think that it's budgeted as a metagame call in the place of propaganda. i'd even go so far as to say that it might not be a metagame call at all, but rather a playstyle choice. against decks that don't run any discard at all, that sucker's going to stick around until it's removed (probably eating the krosan grip that should have wrecked your vedalken shackles), or until you drop a counterspell on some sort of non-damage threat (probably a blue sun's zenith or the like). if that's the case, you could argue that it's better than propaganda, especially if you take into account that it can "lock" the game down on turn two. energy field can actually end up reading "creatures your opponents control can't attack," "goblin lackey loses all abilities," and "time walk until your opponent draws removal." under the right circumstances, that seems pretty fantastic.

admittedly, i've glanced over energy field countless times, but i can totally understand how it's a justifiable choice. let the play testing begin.

sower of temptation seems to me, like a less-viable vedalken shackles, but in the right metagame, it could be better, seeing as how you get an extra 2/2 flyer to combat decks that swarm out quickly. in my eyes, these are vedalken shackles number three and four.

cryptic command is something that i've never really cared for, but i suppose it's justified if you're dropping two counterspells for room. provided you have the mana to pay for it, it's strictly better. i don't know if i'd make this switch personally, but i could see a 2/2 or 3/1 counterspell/cryptic command split working quite nicely.

in this list, sensei's divining top acts as brainstorm number five and six, or even more, if you can spin them a few times before they're removed. also, if you can drop one on turn one, you can bluff that you're playing countertop for a few turns, and mind games always compliment our deck. combine two tops with two vendilion cliques, and you've got draw spells five through eight, and the card slots that in a different meta game would be some combination of fact or fiction and other choices. again, we're looking at spells with legs, which certainly help.

with those justifications, the only choices that confuse me are the singleton oblivion stone (which just seems ungodly slow, and way too expensive) and back to basics as a two of. i really think oblivion stone is pretty dumb, and back to basics should always be played as a three or four of, maindeck. however, that being said, you can't argue with results.

as far as the sideboard goes: 1. turning two vedalken shackles into two sower of temptations makes energy flux ten times better, which already acts as mass-removal for a lot of decks. 2. mind harness looks like it has potential to be hydroblast's older brother, who can also tag tarmogoyf. 3. misdirection stuffs the hymn to tourachs chris knew he'd run into. 4. surgical extraction is probably better than relic of progenitus and tormod's crypt if you're not worried about dredge. 5. llawan, cephalid empress is the obvious anti-merfolk choice.

so yeah...it looks like everything here makes almost perfect sense, (even with as much as i hate not seeing morphling in our lists).

[C Rayz Walz]

I actually think the deck needs more Ostone if you want to use field because you need a way to reset the board after you clog it up with energy field. I don't think Ostone is too slow because of field. I don't like the fact that the fetch lands mess up energy field too and it gives merfolk an out with wasteland which seems pretty bad to me. Another thing that I do not like is that energy field does not protect jace. I also am not really a fan of sower in this build either but I think his deck comes down to play style and it personally is something that I do not really like, but obviously the deck is really good just not my play style I guess.

[serendib]

myself, I was playing with 3 counterspell and 4 cryptic command. I might go down to 2 counterspells as far as I have 11 counters for the early game (4 Fow 4 mental 3 ssnare) and I will not low the number of cryptic commands. So I would have 10 mid-late game counters (4 FoW 2 counterspells 4 cryptics)

I might also go down to 2 back to basics because the match up it's great, are those match up which are positive anyway...

sensei's divining top in SCG is very good under energy field too.

In the last three days I tested this list vs rock (4-1) zoo (4-1) and GW aggro with thrun and natural order (3-2) [yeah, morphling made me win really a lot of those games]

22 lands with 6 fetches

3 jace
2 vendilion
1 morphling

4 brainstorm
4 repeal
4 cryptic command

3 back to basics
3 vedalken shackles

4 force of will
3 counterspell
3 spell snare
4 mental misstep

I worked good. when I lost to GW aggro It was because of Thrun, the Last Troll I don't have solution too eccept for vendilion clique.

I think I will change it like that:

22 island (6 fetches)

3 jace TMS
3 vendilion clique
2 sower of temptation
1 morphling

3 vedalken shackles
2 back to basics

2 repeal
4 cryptic command

4 force of will
2 counterspell
3 spell snare
4 mental misstep

4 brainstorm
1 sense's devining top

sideboard:
4 energy field
3 llawan,cephalid empress
3 surgical extraction
2 misdirection
3 submerge

[Kich867]

(As a GW Aggro player, I can confirm that Thrun is a boss against MUC lists and is damn near game if he hits the table haha)

I think Cryptic Command is something I originally thought was bad given that it's 4 mana, but in a pinch it can be thrown to FOW, with misstep and snare and just plain counterspell you have enough early counters to make it to the mid-game where they're all still relevant except..Cryptic Command is like, really, really good then.

Counterspell + Sleep, Counterspell + cantrip, Counterspell + Boomerang, they all have their uses (I feel like the bounce or draw moreso than the sleep effect) and are either overbudget or appropriately budgeted. I think countering Bob and bouncing Tarmogoyf must feel pretty good.

And given it's place in an apparently incredibly viable, competitive list, it's hard to argue with the results. I'm under the impression that card probably did a lot of work for him, considering how well the deck can delay the game.

[serendib]

(As a GW Aggro player, I can confirm that Thrun is a boss against MUC lists and is damn near game if he hits the table haha)


yeah, early game thrun is nearly GG.
The plan is not to make GW aggro reach 4 mana which is much easier when I run B2B (I counter all hierarchs and low zenith for dyad or hierarch or repeal them) or take away from his hand only natural orders or thrun (I nearly never take other cards away from his hand, he can Sword to plowshares my vendilion, no problem for me... ). I prefere vendilion n°3 instead of back to basics n°3 ..

post-sideboarding, misdirection si good to misdirect his Sword To Plowshares he would like to do on vendilion / sower on his thrun (StP is his spell and he can target him)

Yeah. 90% of the times I take an opponent's creature swing, then I counter his spell on second play phase and bounce the creature. otherwise if board is clean, I just counter and draw.

It's huge in late game if I have back to basics online or jace.

Muc nowadays don't have room for hard draw spells like fact or fiction to my view. Because for example casting Fact or fiction on turn 4 means not playing other spell in that turn and means having lots of lands in the deck -> few spells in the deck.
Other aspect is that we can't play more than 9 converted-mana-cost-4-or-more, so I prefere bigJace, Sower.o.T and Cryptic.C.

On the other side Muc needs card on which there's written "do somethink good and draw a card", cryptic command is just the boss of those cards (jace too of course).

[C Rayz Walz]

I actually like fof a lot better now with the addition of MM. I still feel that CC is still not good enough for what it does, but that is my personal opinion towards it. But now with MM we have a lot of ways to counter things, and I always like more card draw.

[Awake]

Hey everyone, I'm back from Holliday, and I would love to try an other version on the MUC that I was playing, something that looks like that :

1 Mountain
1 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
17 Island

1 Morphling
1 Sphinx of Jwar Isle

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Back to Basics
2 Repeal
3 Counterspell
3 Cryptic Command
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep

SB: 2 Mind Harness
SB: 2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 Propaganda
SB: 1 Back to Basics

but more I think about it more Field is a card I want to try, but what would you put out to include this card MD?
what do you guys think about the build?

[C Rayz Walz]

what do you people think about sbing a couple dismember? I think it has some potential but the life loss can be pretty hurtful for us. Thoughts?

[Tepesh]

@C Rayz Walz:
Dismember seems to be a very bad choice. In every MU you want to play this card 4 life would be like suicide. Your lifecount isnt important when you face combo and control - and you definitely dont need dismember in those MUs.
If you want Spotremoval just add 1 plains and 1 tundra and play some Swords to Plowshares.
There is definitely _no_ space for dismember in this deck aslong you dont splash black and even then there are a lot better cards.


@Awake:
Well then just try Energy Field? But keep in mind you have to build around it - you card just put it into your list. The version of Chris Kronenberger is a MUC build around EF (in my opinion).
I tried it and i dont like this "style". i prefer to splash a bit white for peacekeeper so Jace+Keeper just win the game when they are combined. Pretty lame but effective.

Why dont you replace 2-3 Islands with some blue Fetchlands? I think this would strongen your deck a lot (synergy with Brainstorm, Top, Jace, Sphinx).
And why do you play Sphinx and Morphling? You could easily cut Morphling for a Counterspell/Spellsnare/Repeal/Explosives/Jace etc.
Some questions towards your sideboard:
-Why so much Aggro- and Graveyardhate? I dont think you need 3 Extractions AND 3 Relics.
-Why a 4th B2B? Do you think this is necessary? I always felt like 3 is the perfect number.
-Why no Firespout? It helps a lot against Tribal

Give Ratchet Bomb a try and maybe Splash white for Spotremoval/Peacekeeper etc.


The build itself is like MUC from some month ago + 4 Misstep. You overreacted when you were building your sideboard (and you dont really have Combohate or something that helps you in the Control Mirror). Though i dont like these MUC builds with no real Carddraw other than Jace. And I dont like cutting Counterspells - but this seems like a "modern" strategy just like this no Cardadvantage/Draw thingy.

[Awake]

@C Rayz Walz:
@Awake:
Well then just try Energy Field? But keep in mind you have to build around it - you card just put it into your list. The version of Chris Kronenberger is a MUC build around EF (in my opinion).
I tried it and i dont like this "style". i prefer to splash a bit white for peacekeeper so Jace+Keeper just win the game when they are combined. Pretty lame but effective.

Why dont you replace 2-3 Islands with some blue Fetchlands? I think this would strongen your deck a lot (synergy with Brainstorm, Top, Jace, Sphinx).
And why do you play Sphinx and Morphling? You could easily cut Morphling for a Counterspell/Spellsnare/Repeal/Explosives/Jace etc.
Some questions towards your sideboard:
-Why so much Aggro- and Graveyardhate? I dont think you need 3 Extractions AND 3 Relics.
-Why a 4th B2B? Do you think this is necessary? I always felt like 3 is the perfect number.
-Why no Firespout? It helps a lot against Tribal

Give Ratchet Bomb a try and maybe Splash white for Spotremoval/Peacekeeper etc.


The build itself is like MUC from some month ago + 4 Misstep. You overreacted when you were building your sideboard (and you dont really have Combohate or something that helps you in the Control Mirror). Though i dont like these MUC builds with no real Carddraw other than Jace. And I dont like cutting Counterspells - but this seems like a "modern" strategy just like this no Cardadvantage/Draw thingy.

my SB i completely not good I know it ^^ I just copy past my deck without thinking about the SB; Sure 6 gravehate cards is a lot, even too much ^^ i think i'll go to cut 2 relic so I keep 4 cards, cause I have some New Horrizon/Dredge in my meta.

Why 4 B2B? ... well for me I feel like it's a 4of post side against some decks like zoo, New Horizon or other decks , and I really love this card's effect. maybe I might pass to 3 (maybe 2 MD and 1 SB so i can pass again to 4 Counterspell, but I'm not sure about this change)

I really don't know what splash I would go for, a red one gives acces to firespout, but the white one (the one i prefer) gives you Peacekeeper (I love that card so much).

about the MD i think I go to cut the morphling to pass at 4 Counterspell or a repeal more, quite not sure about which one i go to take, I'll see tomorrow when I'll go to play :)

[C Rayz Walz]

I actually think peacekeeper is going to lose a lot of its value since merfolk seems like they are going to be running dismember in the main and board. I know a lot of people running it in my area so I think llawan is going to be better in that match up. I guess he is still good vs show and tell but I really am not that scared of that deck to be honest.

Awake- Are you only going to run jace and shackles as your win con? I personally don't like just having them as I want a creature that can actually kill jace and other planeswalker game one.

[DragoFireheart]

Ensnaring Bridge does wonders in fighting the Merfolk matchup. It makes their Lord work against themselves.

[Volrath]

Ensnaring Bridge does wonders in fighting the Merfolk matchup. It makes their Lord work against themselves.

How do you plan to dispose of your excel counters?.

[DragoFireheart]

How do you plan to dispose of your excel counters?.


That is a great question. :(

[C Rayz Walz]

I love bridge, but I don't think it is very good in this kind of deck. I been playing it stax and love it there since I empty my hand pretty easily, but for this deck I actually want cards.

[Volrath]

That is a great question. :(

Indeed, also, why not play Energy field? By passing the counter dumping altogether.

[DragoFireheart]

Indeed, also, why not play Energy field? By passing the counter dumping altogether.

Hmmm. How Effective has Energy Field been in testing? Doesn't it sorta conflict with running BS and fetchlands? We are forced to choose?

[C Rayz Walz]

I tested the version that won and I really do not like the way it played personally. Field doesn't protect jace so you can't play him when you have field out. You only have one sweeper, and it is really bad with fetchlands since your opponent can try to wasteland them. I think field can be really good but I actually think it has to be in a different build then the one that won. That is my view on the subject.

[Slate-]

What sort of cards, or what shell would you suggest for a deck that can support field?

[C Rayz Walz]

I remember a build from gp Madrid that ran chalice of the void in the main deck to help deal with duress effects. It also ran more O stone in the main deck and I think you need a way to wipe the board when you are ready to go for the win. I don't like fetch lands in the style of deck either since they conflict with field in play. I would probably play something along that running chalice and more O stones in the main deck. The more I think about field though the more I don't like it since a lot of decks are running hymn and green sun for pridgemage so I don't think it is really that great after really thinking about it.

[Tepesh]

Well playing Chalice in the main isnt that good cause you have to play it on turn 2 and you cant play Brainstorm, Mental Misstep, Spell Snare, StoP, Top etc anymore. You have to design a new deck to support both: Field and Chalice.

Also i would prefer a Disk instead of OStone cause you have the time, it doesnt destroy Planeswalkers and Stifle aint that good versus Disk.

Though i would still prefer Peacekeeper cause u should always have the counter for their removal. Llawan also dies to Dismember and Vial just ignores Llawans effect. If you protect Peacekeeper you just win the Game. To win with Llawan you have to protect him AND destroy/needle his vials.

[Kich867]

Well playing Chalice in the main isnt that good cause you have to play it on turn 2 and you cant play Brainstorm, Mental Misstep, Spell Snare, StoP, Top etc anymore. You have to design a new deck to support both: Field and Chalice.

Also i would prefer a Disk instead of OStone cause you have the time, it doesnt destroy Planeswalkers and Stifle aint that good versus Disk.

Though i would still prefer Peacekeeper cause u should always have the counter for their removal. Llawan also dies to Dismember and Vial just ignores Llawans effect. If you protect Peacekeeper you just win the Game. To win with Llawan you have to protect him AND destroy/needle his vials.

I'm sorry, I really hate being the person who constantly just points this out and doesn't add much, but how is one playing Mono-Blue Control (a deck that is only blue) and Peacekeeper simultaneously? You're referring to a Uw Control deck, Energy Field and Propaganda are about the closest thing blue has to peacekeeper.

[Tepesh]

I'm sorry, I really hate being the person who constantly just points this out and doesn't add much, but how is one playing Mono-Blue Control (a deck that is only blue) and Peacekeeper simultaneously? You're referring to a Uw Control deck, Energy Field and Propaganda are about the closest thing blue has to peacekeeper.

Easy answer:
MUC isnt only mono coloured since over 4 years?
There are builds that splash 1 or 2 colours and they have been around for a long time. You have to accept this or you will have to repost you post twice a page in this thread.

If you disagreed with this: In line 6 in the opening post is the first mentioning of a splash in MUC.


Propaganda and Energy Field both dont protect your jace and so you have to stall until you can blow up everything with your 1off sweeper or wait for Finisher besides Jace to knock him out (as long as you can kill him with this finisher without dropping a card in your graveyard).
So why dont you just add 1 plains und 4 peacekeeper in the sb instead? Its way more powerful and you dont have to rely on single 1-offs to reach a win.

[Kich867]

Easy answer:
MUC isnt only mono coloured since over 4 years?
There are builds that splash 1 or 2 colours and they have been around for a long time. You have to accept this or you will have to repost you post twice a page in this thread.

If you disagreed with this: In line 6 in the opening post is the first mentioning of a splash in MUC.


Propaganda and Energy Field both dont protect your jace and so you have to stall until you can blow up everything with your 1off sweeper or wait for Finisher besides Jace to knock him out (as long as you can kill him with this finisher without dropping a card in your graveyard).
So why dont you just add 1 plains und 4 peacekeeper in the sb instead? Its way more powerful and you dont have to rely on single 1-offs to reach a win.

I get the feeling English isn't your primary language.

The 6th line says, "You can 'splash' for Engineered Explosives" -- He's referring to adding other non basic lands, like a Volcanic Island and a Tropical Island, in order to utilize Engineered Explosives, not literally splashing other colored cards to make the deck more robust.

Every mention of splashing I've seen in this thread has either been completely ignored or dejected as not being Mono-Blue Control--because adding another color makes it..not..mono blue.

And no, I've not had to bring this up twice a page, in fact *points at join date* Since march, I've only had to bring this up twice before and one was a misunderstanding--the other was a post like yours.

[C Rayz Walz]

the fact that chalice counters all those are card fine. You simply don't run them in that kind of build. I already stated though that I don't think field really is that strong in the current meta. O stone is definitely better in that style of deck since under field you can actually save your own stuff which makes it much stronger imo.

I HATE when people say that you can just counter their removal when they try to kill peacekeeper. The reason why I like it so much was because they couldn't really answer him. llawan actually has an effect on the board state which for me, other then splashing which I don't really like is a big reason why I stick with llawan.

[dsck]

Went 3-1-1 today in a 18 player tournament.

Teh list:
8 Fetch
1 Mountain
1 Volcanic Island
12 Island

2 Vendilion Clique
1 Sower of Temptation
2 Vedalken Shackles
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Counterspell
4 Mental Misstep
4 Spell Snare
3 Mana Leak
2 Cryptic Command
2 Back to Basics
1 Arc Trail (yes, arc trail.)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nevinyrral's Disk

SB:
2 Arc Trail
2 Firespout
2 Energy Flux
3 Misdirection
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Llawan
2 Propaganda


Match 1 High Tide(?), he had resets so im not sure if its different archtype
G1. I resolve early Clique and it goes all the way with counterbackup (Missteps really shined in this). I could play them for free without worrying my life total which is nice in this matchup.
G2. I dont get any threat on the table and he brain freezes me.
G3. I get well timed Clique again and beat my oppponent on the extra turns
2-1

Match 2 Combo Elves
G1. I survive @ 1 life with Jace @ 1 loyality counter. Awesome game! Too bad my Back to Basics are dead in this match as well.
G2. I dont draw fetch or red source and die to swarm of Elves, while holding Firespout and Arc Trail.
G3. Time is called
1-1-1

Match 3 MonoR goblins
G1. I misstep Vial and Lackey. I land Back to Basics and his Wastelands/Ports hurt him, I manage to survive with Jace @ 1 Loyality counter and 1 life again, Shackles + Clique take him down slowly.
G2. Tuk tuk goblin destroys shackles, I draw only land and die.
G3. Opponent has the nuts, I drop nev. disk but he has the tuk tuk in his hand again.
1-2

Match 4 Armageddon Stax
G1. I let Thrinisphere resolve and beat face with Clique and counter everything he tries to cast. Close race with mishra's factory, I had to bounce humility with cryptic command to win the race :D
G2. He plays turn 2 red enchantment that destroys lands if you tap them during other player's turn, fast scoop..
G3. Very odd game. Both mulligan to 6, I have to force his turn 1 crucible. I drop Aura Flux and pass, he pays for the flux and passes adding plains/more mana on the table. Next turn I cast Jace and start fatesealing him (he was low on hand cards). He casts boil (!!) and I never draw land again, my hand was also empty at this point. He lands R/W ajani and bolts jace but it only slows his own death. I fateseal him and dont let him get any factories/oblivion rings. First time I resolve Jaces ultimate :)
2-1

Match 5 Combo Elves + Natural Order
G1. I steam roll him with countering everything and dropping clique which goes all the way.
G2. My opponent casts Gaea's Revenge off Gaea's Cradle and 3 elves turn 3 while im holding 3 fows for natural order/choke...
G3. Same as G1 except I have jace + Shackles + sower.
2-1

3-1-1.

In the "finals" were BW aggro vs UW Stoneforge Mystic control, I didnt face any decks with goyfs or weak manabases for Back to Basics to pry on :( Loved the deck, it lacks something for card advantage department though and needs more shackles. Arc Trails were mostly for easing the fish match up and for Confidants which I didnt face.

[Synergy]

I usually post on MTG salvation, but I thought I would post here as well.

Anyway, I took MUC to the Denver Starcity open today. The deck played decently for me and I made the money. I played a list I liked as opposed to last year with the list that was supposedly the 'best' and it worked. I realized from extensive testing that vedalkan shackles + energy field was one of our biggest assets and that energy field + Jace was antisynergystic, so he was dropped. I also played only islands, which worked great. I usually play ancestral visions, but this also isn't fantastic with energy field, so I tried a full rack of Fact or Fiction instead. I was pretty happy with it, but still missed AV in some situations. The 1-1 sphinx split also worked great for me all day.

I beat U/G madness, goblins, Urg control, zoo, and white martyr life. I lost to a pretty sick welder painter deck, and flubbed a Natural Order RUG match, which I felt I had good game against.

This is what I took. It can of course be customized if you want to cut certain cards or include others, especially with the SB.



MUC Synergy

Lands

24x islands

Spells

0cc

4x Mental Misstep
4x Force of Will

1cc

3x Spell Snare
2x Repeal

2cc

4x Counterspell
2x Energy Field
2x Powder Keg

3cc

3x Vedalken Shackles
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Back to Basics

4cc

3x Cryptic Command
4x Fact or Fiction

6cc

1x Consecrated Sphinx
1x Sphinx of Jwar Isle

[Sideboard]

2x Propaganda
1x Energy Field
1x Oblivion Stone

2x Spell Pierce
2x Misdirection
1x Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1x Back to Basics

3x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2x Pithing Needle

[C Rayz Walz]

What do you guys think is the best way for us to fight Hive MInd? I think that deck is going to become pretty popular as it has been doing very well recently. I know that Clique is really good for us since it allows us to disrupt and put on a clock. I think spell pierce is pretty good since it really slows them down, but that it is still pretty easy for them to play around. Any other ideas for us how to fight that combo?

Synergy- What place did you get at the Denver open? how was Terferi, O stone, and the 2 props for you in the board? Why did you chose powder keg over O stone in the main since I feel that O stone is pretty good with energy field(actually think it is a must if I would ever play energy field version since I feel that it is the best sweeper under the field). How was Consecrated sphinx for you, and how was back to basic for you all day? Were you happy that it was in the main deck? lately I have been having it in my board and I miss.

[Awake]

Here's the list i'm trying right now, I still miss some cards, but I have most of them, and I have the feeling that cunning wish is really a powerfull 1 of :)

1 Mountain
1 Polluted Delta
1 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
15 Island
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Karn Liberated
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Oblivion Stone
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Energy Field
3 Back to Basics
1 Cunning Wish
2 Cryptic Command
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Submerge
SB: 1 Steel Sabotage
SB: 1 Hibernation
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 2 Firespout
SB: 4 Propaganda

I'm afraid about the Mountain MD, since if I open a hand with mountain + island and CS I'll cry :cry: so ... I'm thinking to replace it by a academy ruins, sure it's the same problem for the mana, but I love the interraction with some of the cards of the pack :)

My SB was build against aggro, since last top 8 at my local store's tournament (with 51 players) was zoo, new horizon, elfball, and bant.
I'm still not sure if all the cards will stay, but I have a tournament (50-60 players) the second of july and I would love to play MUC, so all advice are welcome :)

@C Rayz :
I know you're waiting for an answer from Synergy, but in the few tests I made with the sphinx, I loved it, as soon as it resolves it gives you so much CA, and if you keep it in hand, it's a card to pitch to fow :) it's a good finisher too :) I like it a lot.

[Synergy]

I placed somewhere in the 20s, I don't remember exactly.

Teferi is my homeboy, but he didn't come in very much in any of those match-ups. He really is for the control mirror, since if he resolves, you win. I like him, but he can be cut if you don't.

Propaganda is actually mostly in there for dredge, believe it or not. They have almost no outs to it if it hits the table. Unlike graveyard hate though, it is more versatile and I did bring it in against goblins and martyr. Nonetheless, I felt like energy field is simply better versus aggro....so prop can be cut for something like surgical extraction.

Oblivion stone was very nice against aggro with energy field, but I felt like it was way too slow to not have another sweeper as well, which is why powder keg was in there. I felt very happy with the keg most of the day...it hits welder, grindstone, goyf, bob, etc very handily. It also hits artifact lands. What keg is really in there for is in case they resolve an aether vial as well, since it blows it up before the vial becomes useful. I could see 1x o stone main if I wanted to increase my energy field to 3 in the main and really focus on that combo though.

Consecrated sphinx was absolutely sick. I couldn't believe how strong it was for me, considering it is usually dropped when both our hands were depleted. I drew 10+ cards of off it in multiple games. He also never ate removal that I couldn't counter since he drew enough protection. That said, I still like Jwar Jwar as well since he can't be bounced with Jace, and simply can't be dealt with by a few decks - but he was out-shined by far by consecrated sphinx.

Back to basics is necessary in a lot of matchups that might be somewhat tough otherwise. It was key in easily winning the Ugr Control and Zoo matchups. I think it is the main reason to play MUC, so it should be main as a 2-of. That said, if your meta is swarming with merfolk and elves, I could see it moved to the board.

[tb249606]

i run a list similar to chris' that won the SCG open with (which he also played to a 12th place finish in the indy invitational with + his standard deck) and a sideboard card i have been testing to help deal with thrun and progenitus and emrakul etc. is phyrexian metamorph. kills all the legends we have problems with and can also beocme morphling number two. thoughts?

[C Rayz Walz]

I actually think it is pretty good. It has a lot of things I like.

[Awake]

+1 I really like how it can help against some deck/creatures like progenitus, emrakul, or thrun like you said ...

But how much phyrexian do you play? do you run only one? or more then one?
if you play only one of it, do you see it enough? or do you run a tutor?

[C Rayz Walz]

Yea that is the problem. I don't know how many we should run. 3 seems like to many as well as clunky. I also am not really sure what other match up I want him other then show and tell and help fight pro and thrun. I would say that at max we can only run 2, but with out a way to find him when we need him makes him less appealing imo. Thoughts?

[tb249606]

i run two. i havent had any problems seeing them because most the time i can stall out with energy field or sit behind a back to basics. ill post my list later no time now.

[Awake]

Hey there!
I was just thinking to something, I'm in the group of person using 1 cunning wish MD and some tools in SB, the only problem I had was sometimes I wanted a firespout but couldn't go and take it cause it's a sorcery ... then came the question, what can do the same, but at instand speed? ... Volcanic fallout of course! now i know it cost RR but I'm running 1 mountain and 1 volcanic island, and if I watch the deck against which I use it, it's most often zoo, elfball or sometimes affinity or dredge, and none of those deck (or in my meta's lists) run wasteland, so with 6 fetches, we're more or less sure to have those 2 reds.

What do you think about putting 1 Volcanic Fallout in the SB in my case? or do you have any other options/solutions that could do the same as firespout but at instant speed?

[TheKingslayer]

Llawan already does the trick against Progenitus, and you're a god dammned fool if you don't have this ugly bitch in your sideboard already.

If you run Sower of Temptation, or Jace then those exist as outs to Emrakul, as he only has protection from colored spells, not permanents.

[Awake]

Llawan already does the trick against Progenitus, and you're a god dammned fool if you don't have this ugly bitch in your sideboard already.

If you run Sower of Temptation, or Jace then those exist as outs to Emrakul, as he only has protection from colored spells, not permanents.

who are you speaking to? ^^

sure Llawan is a 2 or 3-of in SB it's so sick (i'm btw looking for some in japanese foil ... that's pretty hard to find =/)

for the rest I'm not running sower anymore, I'm playing a 2creature version of the deck, but yeah, jace still works ^^

[TheKingslayer]

who are you speaking to? ^^

sure Llawan is a 2 or 3-of in SB it's so sick (i'm btw looking for some in japanese foil ... that's pretty hard to find =/)

for the rest I'm not running sower anymore, I'm playing a 2creature version of the deck, but yeah, jace still works ^^


I am speaking to the blokes discussing phyrexian metamorph in the sideboard.


Unfortunately, I don't currently possess any Llawans, and I went through a great deal of trouble gathering some humble, English-speaking, non-foil ones. However, I'm sure there are likely some foil, Japanese Llawans somewhere in Japan. (I actually saw some on SCG a few weeks ago for pretty cheap, if I remember correctly.)

[TheKingslayer]

Is anyone well versed in combatting T.E.S.?

I'm not talking about sideboard plans, I'm talking about choosing what to counter...
Obviously I want to counter orim's chant and tutors. Are there any situational counters I should be aware of, or moments to hold back, or mana acceleration that should be countered? I simply have never faced the deck, nor have I piloted it.

[death]

If they have an LED out and tries to cast Infernal Tutor, Snare it.

If they Chant, Silence, Duress, Thoughtseize or cast Ritual, Misstep it.

Reserve your hard counters for Ad Nauseam.

[klaus]

Is anyone well versed in combatting T.E.S.?

I'm not talking about sideboard plans, I'm talking about choosing what to counter...
Obviously I want to counter orim's chant and tutors. Are there any situational counters I should be aware of, or moments to hold back, or mana acceleration that should be countered? I simply have never faced the deck, nor have I piloted it.

Given the storm count isn't lethal, don't counter Infernal Tutor, unless your opponent has Hellbent and you don't have any outs to Empty the Warrens.

If they go turn 1 Dark Ritual, I'd definitely counter it, I guess (-> ETW)

[Diprivan]

Is anyone well versed in combatting T.E.S.?

I'm not talking about sideboard plans, I'm talking about choosing what to counter...
Obviously I want to counter orim's chant and tutors. Are there any situational counters I should be aware of, or moments to hold back, or mana acceleration that should be countered? I simply have never faced the deck, nor have I piloted it.

Playtest it. Seriously.
It surprises me everytime that people keep on whining about losing to storm combo but never take the time to playtest against it.
I playtest against dredge for christ sake, do you think I like playing against that pile of junk? (hint: I don't)

Pre MM, MUC was a bye for TES. Even with MM it's balanced if you know what you're doing, if you don't, I still win.

Since exams are killing me and I need to study I don't have the time to post extensively, but some tips:

- you DON'T counter every protection spell/ritual/tutor. I have 4 chant, 4 duress, 4 dark ritual, 4 rite of flame, 4 burning wish, 4 infernal tutor. You're going to counter 24 spells, when I play 8 additional cantrips? Good luck with that. If you don't select in what you'll counter, I just smash through eventually.
- burning wish is deadly, a competent player just gets tendrils with it, then just waits till he has enough lands out and starts throwing spells in your counters and just tendrils you for GG.
- don't be an idiot and tap out EOT turn 4 for your fact if you can't stop my response of ritual -> Adn, untap with 20 cards in hand against you outtapped (hint: you die)
- always consider what my out is. Do you have keg/EE for my etw? Is my life total high enough for Adn? How many mana will I have floating after Adn? If 0/1, how many initial mana sources do I still have left in my deck/how many 1cc rituals of the appropriate color? Do you know if I have tendrils in hand, what's your life total, how many cards do I have?
- if I infernal without hellbent, what am I about to get? Do you have a snare for it, or only fow/cs? Is it your only hard counter or do you have more? How many answers do you have for chant when I would go for it?
- Can I iggy loop you (ie can I stick a chant?) How many white sources do I have?
- If I infernal tutor, saccing led, bounce a chrome mox for epic pwnage.
- Do you care if duress resolves? What's the balance between your hard counters/soft counters?
- if you play clique, stuff really becomes interesting, know what to do with it and that card is quite good against combo; if you don't it's just an overcosted 7 turn clock.
- etc etc ofc

[TheKingslayer]

Playtest it. Seriously.
It surprises me everytime that people keep on whining about losing to storm combo but never take the time to playtest against it.
I playtest against dredge for christ sake, do you think I like playing against that pile of junk? (hint: I don't)

Pre MM, MUC was a bye for TES. Even with MM it's balanced if you know what you're doing, if you don't, I still win.

Since exams are killing me and I need to study I don't have the time to post extensively, but some tips:

- you DON'T counter every protection spell/ritual/tutor. I have 4 chant, 4 duress, 4 dark ritual, 4 rite of flame, 4 burning wish, 4 infernal tutor. You're going to counter 24 spells, when I play 8 additional cantrips? Good luck with that. If you don't select in what you'll counter, I just smash through eventually.
- burning wish is deadly, a competent player just gets tendrils with it, then just waits till he has enough lands out and starts throwing spells in your counters and just tendrils you for GG.
- don't be an idiot and tap out EOT turn 4 for your fact if you can't stop my response of ritual -> Adn, untap with 20 cards in hand against you outtapped (hint: you die)
- always consider what my out is. Do you have keg/EE for my etw? Is my life total high enough for Adn? How many mana will I have floating after Adn? If 0/1, how many initial mana sources do I still have left in my deck/how many 1cc rituals of the appropriate color? Do you know if I have tendrils in hand, what's your life total, how many cards do I have?
- if I infernal without hellbent, what am I about to get? Do you have a snare for it, or only fow/cs? Is it your only hard counter or do you have more? How many answers do you have for chant when I would go for it?
- Can I iggy loop you (ie can I stick a chant?) How many white sources do I have?
- If I infernal tutor, saccing led, bounce a chrome mox for epic pwnage.
- Do you care if duress resolves? What's the balance between your hard counters/soft counters?
- if you play clique, stuff really becomes interesting, know what to do with it and that card is quite good against combo; if you don't it's just an overcosted 7 turn clock.
- etc etc ofc


I would love to playtest against it. I've never lost against it, because I've never encountered it, but someone is running it at our local meta, I just haven't been paired with it. The difficulty is in finding a competent storm player. Dredge- I play dredge and have tested against it extensively. I understand that these decks will bite you in the ass if you don't prepare for them.

Would you find arcane lab a suitable sideboard option, or is it a wasted slot?

[Diprivan]

I would love to playtest against it. I've never lost against it, because I've never encountered it, but someone is running it at our local meta, I just haven't been paired with it. The difficulty is in finding a competent storm player. Dredge- I play dredge and have tested against it extensively. I understand that these decks will bite you in the ass if you don't prepare for them.

Would you find arcane lab a suitable sideboard option, or is it a wasted slot?

This. Competent storm players are rare and storm really is an archetype that requires experience to play properly. So even when you find someone inexperienced to test with, you should always consider this when analysing the results.

Arcane lab: INSANE against us, especially now most builds dropped cleanfall/eye of nowhere as a wishable answer to it. The card has one major drawback however: it's really narrow. So if you don't expect to be paired against storm at least once, you shouldn't pack it. (also don't rush into playing your "insert win condition of choice", bounce your lab, you can't counter due to lab. Know when you are able to do this safely)

[C Rayz Walz]

So I haven been playing my weird version of MUC with Jitte, Spire golem, Ven clique, and Morphling and I finally made room for brainstorm and fetchlands. I also run 3 jace and one in the board and 2 fof. Wow I have to admit that I have been such an idiot for not running brainstorm. I thought that this deck didn't need brainstorm and I have to say that I was dead wrong. This card helps us so much. With brainstorm added to the deck I have had some really good testing results and I am very happy with how the deck is working.

Now I do have some questions for you guys. I run 7 fetchland with 16 islands. Do you guys think I should run 6,7 or 8 fetchlands to help with brainstorm and jace? I am leaning towards 7 but I can easily running 8. Also, which counterspells do you guys think are the most important between MM, Spell snare, Counter Spell, FOW. I used to run 4 of each but I need to cut one and I am unsure of which one to cut. I currently cut one of the spellsnare and moved it to the sb but I am looking for peoples opinions of which counters are needed the most. A lot of my testing buddies keep telling me different views on why I should cut a CS or MM instead, but I want to hear other peoples thoughts so please help me out if you can. thanks

[serendib]

That's my advice:

4 force of will
4 mental misstep
3 counterspell
3 spell snare

... in way enought.

no more than 6 fetches if you run morphling, because mid-late game you draw less lands than having 22/23 basics. Otherwise If you are not running morphling, so increase to 7.

Are you running AV of still FoF ?

[C Rayz Walz]

I run 7 fetchlands and never had a problem with morphling. I still have plenty of mana, but I do use him in a weird sense since I use jitte to make him win attrition wars and to kill my opponent usually.

I run 4 brainstorm, 3 jace, and 2 fof. No AV as I don't like how bad of a top deck they are and I like how powerful fof is in the late game.

Can you explain your reasons on why you chose that counter suite. Remember that our list are different, but I would still like to hear your reasons. Thanks

[serendib]

- first of all, more than 14 counters is too much to my view. (I personally would run 13)
your muc build doesn't draw a lot. 3 jace and 2 FoF are not a lot for card advantage. If opponents gets something on the board you risk to draw conters.
Decks with more than 14 counters usually draw more cards such as with 4 standstill.

- early counters are more important than mid-late game counters. So I would cut 1 counterspell for sure and 1 snare.

- can you please post you full list ?

I have no MUC list I'm playing right now because I'm playing an UWB very strange control deck. but I test muc one a week.

[serendib]

Last week I was testing something like that :

4 squadron hawk
3 vendilion clique

4 jace, the mindsculptor

4 force of will
2 counterspell
3 spell snare
4 mental misstep

4 swords to plowshares
3 vedalken shackles

4 brainstorm
3 ponder

4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
2 marsh flats
2 tundra
2 plains
10 island

sideboard:
4 stonforge mystic
1 batterskull
1 swords of fire and ice
3 back to basics
2 oblivion ring
3 relic of progenitus
2 surgical extraction

stoneforge pack is for merfolks and goblins ...

[C Rayz Walz]

well I disagree with you that 14 Counters are to many and I will always run 4 counterspell for sure. I like having hard counters personally. Also, with brainstorm and jace if I do draw extra counters I can always get rid of them. If something gets through it is very easy for me to find what I am looking for.

4 brainstorm, 3 jace, and 2 fof I think are enough for me to keep card advantage. I never have hard time getting card advantage or finding what I need when I play my version. I could add in AV or something else but that seems overkill imo. I do have an extra jace in the board too.

We really have different opinions when it comes down to this deck. I actually run 15 counters and I love. It has been doing so well for me. It fits my play style better.

Thank you for posting your opinion. I like to see how others view their decks and I like to see what other people feel are important.

[sillyandrew]

i run eleven counters: four force of will, four counterspell, and three mental misstep. i've been trying to make more room for the last misstep, but i haven't really been having too many problems. i run those eleven along side back to basics, propaganda, powder keg, and vedelkan shackles to make up for the smaller numbers.

i think the correct number of counters is really dependent on the rest of your deck. the more permanent based answers you run, obviously, the less counters your really need to include. i've seen decks with eight do really well, and decks with sixteen do really well. it's really a matter of composition. i try to split the difference. i agree with c rayz, in that counterspell should always be a four-of.

[TheKingslayer]

Blue's strengths lie in its ability to simply say "No." It is my personal philosophy that this should be taken advantage of with a large number of counters( I run 16.) Permanent based control in blue is often situational, and more suitable for a known meta. Though propaganda and back to basics are often absolute bombs. I prefer to keep them in the board in favor of saying "No" while collecting information on the opposition game one. We have the ability to out counter almost any deck (counterbalance aside.) As well, we are suited to abuse force of will, while most other control decks must go about ditching a very valuable, and likely rare, blue card in their hand. Of course it's each player's preference, and each metagame sculpts every mono blue player's build into variations.

Currently, I run the following counters:

4 counterspell
4 force of will
4 mental misstep
2 Cryptic Command
2 Mana Leak


I really enjoy the two/two split of a late game counter/time walk/card draw/ permanent bounce and an early game counter. I opted away from spell snare after having it mental misstepped following a large percentage of its castings. It's almost funny to watch spell snare get mental missteped a good fifteen times. Almost.

[C Rayz Walz]

Thank you for explaining your thoughts on the subject. Although I disagree with spell snare, but I can understand where you are coming from. I think that comes down as a player's choice.

[Melwis]

What do you think of this version of MUC which has CB-Top among with other counters. The idea is to simply counter most of your opponents spells and get major card advantage with CB + Fact or Fiction while maintaining control. In the end, Jace or Shackles is supposed to give you the win.

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
11 [M12] Island (4)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Spells
4 [TE] Counterspell
2 [NPH] Dismember
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
4 [CS] Counterbalance
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds

[Antonius]

has anyone tried the tabernacle + back to basics?

[C Rayz Walz]

I personally do not like CB top in Muc. I don't think we have the right tools nor do I think it is actually really that good. I was never a fan of it.

I think back to basic and tabernacle can be a house. The big problem that I have with them is that they do not add mana which is very scary for me since I think that this deck is a pretty mana hungry deck. I do think however that it could work and be really powerful at the same time

[Antonius]

The mana base I was thinking of playing would be

15 island
6 Fetchland
2 Tolaria West
1 Dust Bowl
1 Tabernacle

I would also run

3 Back to Basics
1 Pendrell Mists

[C Rayz Walz]

Why dustbowl? I can also see the Tolaria West screwing you up some games. The fact that you don't want to use it as a land and more for a tutor really makes it not as appealing.

[Antonius]

Yeah, I'm not so sure on the dust bowl either, its just there as alternate if I can't get B2B up in a control match.

However, I do run 22 lands that actually make mana so I don't think that the Tolaria West and Tabernacle not making mana will be a problem. I've also thought of running a MD crypt or some other zero cmc cards to tutor for with Tolaria West. Oh, I forgot-- i run Ancestral Visions, so Tolaria can tutor for that.

[C Rayz Walz]

I love dust bowl just not in this deck. As a control deck I never want to be sacking my lands as I feel that we are actually a pretty mana intensive deck. I think it should just be an island.

My problem with tolarian west is that I would never want to open up with it in my opening hand. I feel that it is a very slow tutor at 3 mana sorcery speed. It is a come in to play tap land which I do not like. It is not an island for shackles. It can be wasteland and in the early stage of the game that can be really bad.

Having crypt as a target for a tutor just doesn't seem that strong since it is pretty bad vs some decks. It doesn't draw us a card or do anything else so drawing it vs merfolk or something similar seems pretty bad imo.

I do like west but only in late game which makes me think it is hard to actually pull off.

[C Rayz Walz]

I love dust bowl just not in this deck. As a control deck I never want to be sacking my lands as I feel that we are actually a pretty mana intensive deck. I think it should just be an island.

My problem with tolarian west is that I would never want to open up with it in my opening hand. I feel that it is a very slow tutor at 3 mana sorcery speed. It is a come in to play tap land which I do not like. It is not an island for shackles. It can be wasteland and in the early stage of the game that can be really bad.

Having crypt as a target for a tutor just doesn't seem that strong since it is pretty bad vs some decks. It doesn't draw us a card or do anything else so drawing it vs merfolk or something similar seems pretty bad imo.

I do like west but only in late game which makes me think it is hard to actually pull off.

[The Treefolk Master]

I've got an important tournament in 2 weeks and I was considering playing MUC. I was thinking of using Reuben Bresler's list, which can be found here:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22350_Legacy_Top_8_At_SCG_Open_Cincinnati_With_Athens_Blue.html

I has tested favourably against several decks, and is quite solid. The one thing I don't like is that you're a bye to Burn, which could be an important deck in my metagame.

Thoughts?

[Grey Moose]

I've been out of Magic for a while and I've decided to pick MUC up. The list I've come up with seems like it could use a little help though. Please take a look at it if you have a minute.

1 Powder Keg
2 Sensei's Top
3 Shackles

3 Back to Basics
2 Propoganda

4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
1 Cryptic Command
2 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare

3 Vedellion Clique
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor

3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
16 Island

[TheKingslayer]

We never want to sac our lands. It's a control deck that wants to drop lands the first five turns into an active shackles/ shackles and counterspell.


Also, Never run less than four shackles. Never. It is a two for one that allows you the ability to juke your opponents creatures around. It stalls the game and prevents your opponent from playing creatures while Jace gets bigger and bigger. As well, it is important to hold a schackles back at times, just give your opponent the false sense of security that it is okay to play a tombstalker.

Burn is no bye. It's really difficult match, but you may out card advantage them, and Jace is the key to this matchup. They will go into top-deck mode at some point. As well, Chill makes it extremely difficult to play around counterspells. However, I did lose to red deck wins last evening in the finals- I didn't have the chills in my sideboard.

Here is the list I used at the local tournament last evening. I took third out of 20, since I lost in the finals and my friend had only had a draw on his record.

Land
4 Polluted delta
18 Island

Artifact
3 Powder Keg
4 Vedalken Shackles

Planeswalkers
3 Jace

Spells
4 Mental Mistep
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare
2 Cryptic Command
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge


SB
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Propaganda
2 Oblivion Stone
2 Llawan
2 Energy Flux/ Chill/ Metamorph/ anything else I need
3 Back to Basics

It's very much a tempo build of control. It's very simple, but the fact of the matter is that I should be able to counter on the play, on the draw for the first couple of turns and then counter everything else. In testing, it works like you think it would. I opted out of vendillion clique, as it would only run into my opponents clique or other flying wall, and I repeatedly found regret in allowing my opponent the ability to draw a new card. I found myself simply yearning for more one for ones. Hence: I run 18 god damned counters. And I will be god damned if anyone says they are too many. It does what blue does. As well, Morphling is retired and obsolete. It makes me sad, but Jace simply wins the game if you have board control. And he helps establish this.

[Grey Moose]

Kingslayer, can I ask how you win the game with your list? The way I see it, you can only beat them with their own creatures or with Jace's ultimate. That just seems too narrow for me. I like Clique for evasion beats, but I was even tinkering with a singleton Jwar Isle Sphinx guy during testing.

[TheKingslayer]

Shackles and Jace are enough. I've tested Vendillion Clique, but have often found the card terribly dissapointing in lacking a means of providing true card advantage. In running 18 counterspells, you can have a pretty nice say of what hits the table and what doesn't. As well, any creatures that do hit the table may be two-for-oned with shackles.
I used to run a sphinx and morphling However, the upkeep of morphling and the sheer cost of the sphinx warranted one to two more land slots that have been opened up by no longer requiring a sixth land on turn six. Jace functions better in this deck than in any other. We already get to decide what hits play, and once top deck mode is reached with a Jace on our side the opponent must not only hit two good cards in a row, but they must also surpass a likely counterspell in trying to play that second good card they managed to draw. Morphling and sphinx do nothing to maintain board control once they hit, they cost too much, and your life total is often too low by the time they hit the board to comfortably attack. Also, the mana spent with Morphling is often too precious in using to juke around attackers and equips with Shackles and protecting shackles. After I picked up a couple of Mind Sculptors as a secondary win condition to Morphling and Sphinx, I found that big creatures in this deck began only serving as walls for Jace. With dropping the big beats, I gained two land slots.

Clique is a self evaluation. It's an amazing card, but it has no shroud, is legendary, and is run by a lot of other decks. I would rather not spend my counterspells on protecting a 3/1 flyer. In not running clique, creature removal becomes obsolete against Big Blue.

[Grey Moose]

So what about decks that don't run creatures, like High Tide or Tendrils? Do you just Jace their library?

[supa_tim]

@TheKingslayer
I'm not sure I understand your critique of Vendilion Clique. Sure he doesn't have shroud, and he is legendary, and is run by a lot of decks. But those things actually seem either neutral or beneficial. If your opponent uses burn on your clique, that is less directed at your face. If your opponent plays clique, he is a duress AND a removal spell because he is legendary.

You don't really need to protect him since his primary purpose isn't necessarily to win the game. It is to disrupt your opponent, cause him/her to deal with the threat, or to block something. Perhaps the best use is to fight opposing Jaces. It is also really good against fast storm combo, which isn't always a great MU for mono-blue.

My questions (for the experts, heh):

1) What is the best sweeper and how many to run? O-stone? Ratchet bomb? Powder keg?
2) Sensei's divining top? Most lists seem to run them now, but how many is optimal? Is 1 too few?

[sillyandrew]

always run 3-4 back to basics. always.

[TheKingslayer]

I board in sneaky homunculus like any reasonable and competent player would.

In all seriousness. I tested Vendillion Clique in place of two spell snare for a long time, but often found great disappointment in it for my metagame. I understand the implications of use and the manner of disruption. However, it has fallen short of my needs, but perhaps this is simply due to my bad luck. I know it comes in handy against Show and Tell and mid combo storm, but I would rather run simple counterspells in my main board, due to a lack of presence of storm and show and tell at the last couple of tournaments I've been to. Though, it is something I would like to move to the sideboard for those combo matchups and against dredge, where Jace is nearly a dead card.

On somewhat of a sidenote, I big Jaced 7 out of 10 games Thursday evening.


As far as board sweepers go, I think powder keg is the best and most reasonable. Though, it can't hit planeswalkers. Ratchet bomb can hit planeswalkers, but it cannot hit manlands like keg can. Both drops all of the pesky one and two drops when an opponent over commits. As well, it's nice to sit at two to pop that god damned Stone Forge Mystic before it loses sickness. Beware of ratchet bomb, because your opponent can respond to it's activated ability to destroy, not allowing you to pop it at all. Powderkeg can respond to it's destruction aside from K grip.

I run O stone in the sideboard to help against NO decks and those with a wide variation of cmc. (It's also helpful against reanimator with Iona.)

Edit: I also must add the lack of synergy I personally find in running Energy field.

I also must add the lack of attention to the legacy metagame, pertaining to those lists that run tabernacle... Part of running Mono Blue is to avoid wasteland...Tabernacle is a nonbasic used to battle aggro...what percentage of aggro decks run wasteland? You'll save money if you just don't use it anyway.

[The Treefolk Master]

Tabernacle is brought against Aggro decks not running Wasteland, such as NO RUG, certain builds of Bant, etc. It is also brought vs. Belcher. Bringing it in against decks running wasteland such as Goblins or Merfolk is a mistake.

It is, however, one of the less accepted sideboard cards and is largely a meta call.

It has tested very well for me against Affinity and NO RUG, especially devastating against the latter.

[Einherjer]

Could someone tell me why Powder Keg should be better than Ratchet bomb?

[dsck]

Could someone tell me why Powder Keg should be better than Ratchet bomb?

Read Kingslayer's post few posts above you.

[bakofried]

I'm confused; how is Bomb being destroyed a concern? It's sacrificed as part of the cost, so, they don't really get a chance to. Could you explain?

[C Rayz Walz]

I think he means when you tap it to put a counter on it. They get a good chance to kill your bomb when that happens.

[Tepesh]

Im currently testing this:

Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Plains
1 Tundra
12 Island

Draw/CQ:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Fact or Fiction
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Boardcontrol:
3 Back to Basics
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Vedalken Shackles
2 Sower of Temptation

Counterspells:
4 Force of will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare

Sideboard:
2 Ajani Goldmane
4 Peacekeeper
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Energy Flux

Since the last time I played Legacy it felt way more faster than now. Thats why I cut StoP and added Visions. It really feels good to draw so muich stuff so you can throw everything at your opponents head. You have a quite nice Early game with Misstep, Force & Spell Snare and huge potential for the late game: Shackles, B2B, Jace, Fact etc.

The only thing I dont like is Rachet Bomb, but they are a lot better (in my eyes) than Keg. But both are very slow and I really want to be able to kill everything I want to kill. Manlands arent an issue since I play Shackles and 3 B2B. I think StoP may help but I wouldnt have any removal for Artifacts, Enchantments, Planeswalker etc. What would you suggest?

Dont argue about the sideboard or the w splash. Doesnt matter for the Rachet Bomb slot question. thanks!

Ajani is instawin vs Zoo/Burn and good in Control MU. No Problems to play him ever. Never lsot a Match against Zoo since I play him.
Peacekeeper is like Energy Field - only better cause you can hide your jace behind him and win.
Extraction obvs Gravehate
Clique for Combo/Loam/Control
Energy Flux vs Affinity/MUD etc

[vogel]

Hey Guys,

I'm testing Reuben Breslers Version of MUC:

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Oblivion Stone
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Vedalken Shackles

Enchantments
3 Back to Basics
3 Energy Field

Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
1 Cryptic Command
2 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare

Legendary Creatures
3 Vendilion Clique

Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Basic Lands
16 Island

Lands
1 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn


Sideboard:

1 Oblivion Stone
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Propaganda
3 Misdirection
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell V


But i have some Problems with it, i don't know what to do against NO RUG, because i dont have tabernacle. Ive lost every game to it, and i don't know what to do against this deck. Maybe you have a Idea? :)
The next Problem, im not sure how to board, what do you think in which metchups i can board mental misstep out?
Another point is that i wanna have a Clock especially against Storm Combo decks, do you know a good creature (which is blue) for that?

Maybe someone tested the same List and can talk about his/her experiences, would be great :)

Sorry for my english, cya

[Arew]

Against Aggro, side out Jace. If it's Zoo-esque aggro, your probably cutting Force's. Against deck's with discard, your cutting Energy Field, etc.

Against Storm, you already have Clique, which is pretty much the best blue creature to play against them.

[vogel]

ahh thx for your advices, but why should i board out forces against Zoo/GW-Aggro?

hmm i'm searching for an alternative for the tabernacle against NO RUG, i don't know...

[igri_is_a_bk]

If you're having trouble with Progenitus then try Phyrexian Metamorph and Ensnaring Bridge in your sideboard.

[Arew]

ahh thx for your advices, but why should i board out forces against Zoo/GW-Aggro?

hmm i'm searching for an alternative for the tabernacle against NO RUG, i don't know...

You board out Forces against Zoo because you simply can't afford to the 2-for-1 against them. Though if they are playing Steppe Lynx I'd keep two in on the draw.

[vogel]

ohh Arew you are from Athen, do you know the deckbuilders?
Ive heard in an audiostrem, that john sava uses 3 phyrexian revoker in his sideboard, is it right? what do you think?

edit: ive found another problem, i don't know what to board out against NO RUG, i can't find any card that i don't need. At first i think about Energy Field, but you can stall with it until you find the Solution for Progenitus. So i don't get it which card isn't important. I want to board in 2 Phyrexian Metamorph for sure and i was thinking about propaganda (don't know if its good against NO RUG) and Hibernation. But i need Slots, can you help me? :)

[C Rayz Walz]

What does everyone think of snapcaster mage for this deck?

[DragoFireheart]

What does everyone think of snapcaster mage for this deck?

An over-priced counter spell or brainstorm?

[C Rayz Walz]

I don't think so personally. The fact that you get to use those again seems really strong to me. Probably better in stoneblade though since they run stp.

[vogel]

i'm still testing KronenbergerBlue and i like it very much, but it's very hard to play. I think i don't know which spell i have to counter and which not, i hope i will learn it :)
Maybe someone can give me something like a guide?

Now i'm tryin Phyrexian Revoker in the Sideboard and its very great. Against Combo it helps you to get a clock and can name Top (DDFT). Another good Target is the Knight of Reliquary. In my test games against Green Decks it becomes bigger than my Islands and my Shackles.

In Fact you get so much Targets for the Revoker afer sideboarding.

I think my Hate MatchUp is NO-Rug. After Boarding i got an answer to Progenitus (Metamorph, LLawan) but they have Red Blasts, Jace, sometimes Thrun and more Counter. I don't know how to play against them and i don't have an idea for the Sideboard.

Would be nice if you share your opinions about Kronenberger/Athens Blue with me :)

[TheKingslayer]

It's really not as simple as a guide. As, early game, mid game, and late game offer very different situations from which to make decisions. You have to assess how much something changes board state if it hits. Did they drop a creature? Is it a clock? Can you take control of it with an active shackles? Let it hit. Can you keg it if the board gets out of control( does it cost 1 or 2)? Let it hit. Is it a first turn noble heirarch that will allow their spells to come a turn earlier? Counter it. Does it allow them to receive more card advantage than you- Bob? Counter it.You must also constantly calculate the the percentages that a certain card may be drawn, while assuming what is likely in the opponents hand. Remember, it's a numbers game, and you win from card advantage. You one for one your opponent most of the time and draw more cards. Always know how many cards are in your opponents hand. This is one of the hardest control decks to run, because you must constantly evaluate all of these things with great speculation. You can't counter them all. The best way to learn what to counter is to simply play. Test matchups with a friend, and don't allow any replays. Allow yourself to be punished from your mistakes and learn them. It will all come naturally from there.

[vogel]

thanx for your Post Kingslayer :)

Yes, i agree with you its so hard to play but that is what i like, and i want to take up this challenge ;)
I'm planing for my next tournament, where i expect many Green-Based-Decks (NO RUG, Junk, G/W Aggro) and Stoneblade Control (UWr UB UW), Tendrils Combo and a small among of Affinity and Reanimator, maybe Dredge

So I need help with the Sideboard:

Ive thougt about this:

3 Spell Pierce (Combo, Control)
3 Phyrexian Revoker (Stoneforge, Knight, Clock against Combo)
3 Hibernation (I hope it will make the NO RUG matchup better, other green decks)
2 Phyrexian Metamorph (Progenitus, Emrakul, Batterskull)
1 Oblivion Stone (against nearly everything:P)
1 Misdirection (additional Counter, Discarddecks)
2 Sphinx of Jwar Isle (Against Control Decks)

With this board i will loose against Reanimate and Dredge, i dont know... your opinions? :)

[blaat]

So, what will we do with the 4 open slots now that Mental misstep got the hammer?
Seems that my build can actually do Counter/Top, but I don't think that the versions discussed here can have it.

[blaat]

So, what will we do with the 4 open slots now that Mental misstep got the hammer?
Seems that my build can actually do Counter/Top, but I don't think that the versions discussed here can have it.

[serendib]

I would play these 75 at the moment _ post banning of mental misstep and with random metagame:

4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
2 marsh flats
2 plains
1 swamp
1 tundra
1 underground sea
9 island

4 wall of omens
3 jace, the mind sculptor
2 sphinx of jwar isle
1 vendilion clique

4 brainstorm

4 fow
4 counterspell
3 spell snare

4 Swords to plowshares
3 engineered explosives
3 vedalken shackles

3 relic of progenitus

sideboard
4 perimeter captain
4 meddling mage
3 back to basics
3 perish
1 take posession

explanation:

no slow cards. cards that "do somethink and make you draw a card". so very few situational cards. better topdeck.

- Swords to plowshares > mental misstep
- engineered explosives > powder keg / ratchet bomb (vs vial deck I would start with e.e. @ 1 on the play turn 0)

- manabase do not make vedalken shackles weeker considerably and we can play E.E. even at 3. and we can still play back to basics (just 2 non basics)

- relic of progenitus maindeck for some reasons : a) I espect less stonforge mystic around and much more green creatures (and so you can block with wall of omens or take them with shackles easily) b) more dredge c) it cicle itself so it is not a dead card in your deck.

- wall of omens: it cicle himself, blocks fast creatures, good vs aggro, good in combination with relic & perimeter captain (I espect more goblins, more merfolks, more zoo, some GW aggro).

- I prefere 3 spell snare + 1 vendilion clique. for those who want 4 spell snare, take vendilion out.

- no back to basics mainboard because I espect a lot of merfolks, gobs , some spiral tide and GW aggro

- meddling mage in the side because he is a real bomb and good for undefined metagame post B/R

- perish no need to explain

- open slots: 1X take posession very funny card in mirror control matchs _example take opponent jace just the turn before ultimate ability. they cannot even krosan grip it or bolt it because you don't give them priority.

This list is ment to face the following metagame:

aggro decks (merfolk, gobs, zoo, gw maverik, aggro loam, dredge)
control deck running lots of nonbasics lands and killing you via jace
bant & new horizon
random combo
tempo decks

This deck is still MUC because IT WORKS as MUC (even the classic versions) even if it has 3 non-island lands and 4 StP and 4 Wall of omens.
(For complainins check original MUC topic and check deckslists on TC Decks.)

my 2 cents. what you think guys ?

[The Treefolk Master]

Seems the deck sucks. Again.

I don't really think we can compete without the ability to answer their T1 play (be it Nacatl, Vial, etc) consistently enough. Nevertheless, I'll try other things (I don't think countertop is the way to go).

I surely enjoyed the deck 15 minutes though...

[serendib]

I don't really think we can compete without the ability to answer their T1 play (be it Nacatl, Vial, etc) consistently enough.

Actually also opponents used to have mental misstep. So I don't think it's a big deal.

Unswer cc1 spells with Swords to plowshares and engineered explosives. :wink:
they don't even get counter by opponent MM anymore :eek:
of course you could have started a MM fight. But 1X1 >>> 2X2 for a control deck. Isn't it ?!

[DragoFireheart]

Actually also opponents used to have mental misstep. So I don't think it's a big deal.

Unswer cc1 spells with Swords to plowshares and engineered explosives. :wink:
they don't even get counter by opponent MM anymore :eek:
of course you could have started a MM fight. But 1X1 >>> 2X2 for a control deck. Isn't it ?!

-Looks like this deck is going to be dead like Landstill was.

[serendib]

Landstill had and will have a different problem: landstill draws cards with standstill.

if there are a lot of vial decks, standstill is difficult to drop. without MM standstill is more difficult to drop.
and often landstill has to side out standstill in g2 (which is the only card that gives him card advantage)

[sillyandrew]

well, i guess i'm dusting off my force spikes.

[TheKingslayer]

The deck was finely polished, and situated in a very convenient spot with mental misstep. I don't think people saw what a power house this deck truly was. Unfortunately, all of the control decks with messy mana bases that MUC preys on will disappear and this predator will enter into a state of hibernation once more.

I was tearing up my local metagame week after week and I was looking forward to taking the deck to INDY. It was fun while it lasted, big blue. Hopefully Aaron and friends will give us a new toy in the future, or unban mental misstep : /



I guess we'll get back to work.

[vogel]

I think the mental misstep ban is hard for us, need to test other stuff, but now its hard against vial or nacatl turn 1 :(

[blaat]

I think the mental misstep ban is hard for us, need to test other stuff, but now its hard against vial or nacatl turn 1 :(

Sure it sucks we lose Mental Misstep.
But the chances of countering something when you're on the draw were 42.1% (chance you have 1 relevant counter in your starting 7).
Without misstep, it will be 33.6% (FoW is the only relevant one left now).
So I don't think it's that big of a deal.
Remember your opponents don't have Misstep either.

On the play, you have a lot of more options of course, depending on your counter suite.

Nevertheless, I have to agree this deck would've been very good right now, but the meta will probably change, maybe into some more aggro and combo.
Time to adjust this deck and kick some ass :)

[vogel]

where are the kronenberger buddies? we need a new decklist :D

[sillyandrew]

i've been testing a new list on cockatrice (in the wake of mental misstep), and i'm bringing it (minus the few cards i don't have yet) to my weekly legacy event tonight.

here's what i'm bringing:

3 energy field
3 back to basics

3 sower of temptation
3 vedalken shackles
3 jace, the mind scultpor

2 sensei's divining top
2 powder keg
2 oblivion stone

4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 counterspell
1 spell snare
4 force spike

3 scalding tarn
3 misty rainforest
16 island

SB:
1 back to basics
2 pithing needle
3 propaganda
3 relic of progenitus
3 hydroblast
3 chalice of the void

the list i've been playing on cockatrice has -1 sower, -1 shackles, +2 clique, -1 spell snare, +1 island.

i've been beating goblins/sligh/boros decks, though they are hard fought games, especially game one, but fast aggro hasn't really been a huge problem for me, even without mm. i think the 2/2 split of keg/ostone is really strong.

force spike is a lot stronger than people really give it credit. it's MM on the play, and it can really surprise people mid/late game. most opponents won't tap out once they see i'm running force spikes, and i think there's a lot to be said for an opponent slowing his tempo in fear of tapping out.

[C Rayz Walz]

I have been using a chalice of the void in the main deck for the past couple of days. It does a lot better vs zoo and combo, but vs the mid range decks it actually sucks vs them. I have been using chrome mox to get chalice for one on turn one it it has pretty good even though it does conflict with fow some times. The banning of MM really hurt blue decks which really blows but we need to keep brainstorming. Anyone thinks a chalice of the void version could be good? I am still undecided but wanted to see what other people thought.

[sillyandrew]

chalice can be really strong, yeah. i think a chalice build would really need to be one drop-less though, maybe four brainstorms, tops. i'd be a little concerned about lists ending up like faerie stompy too...

[goblinroughtider]

Has anyone tried Isochron Scepter in MUC?

[theillest]

Has anyone tried Isochron Scepter in MUC? Not recently. It sounds fun but I found it to be too much of a commitment and quite vulnerable. Counterbalance seems better than x on a stick.

[dsck]

I have been testing with this list:

1 Vendilion Clique
4 Snapcaster Mage

3 Repeal
4 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
1 Cryptic Command
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Chandra, the Firebrand

3 Back to Basics
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Vedalken Shackles

1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
13 Island
1 Mountain
1 Volcanic Island

Chandra is surprisingly good with all the Snapcasters, Mancers, Cliques and Confidants etc around. Casting double Fact or Fiction, Repeal or Cryptic Command next turn is very powerful, are there any other good instants or sorceries to abuse?

Sideboard could be:
3 Propaganda
2 Llawan
2-4 REB
4 Surgical Extraction
Some Stifles maybe as well.

EDIT: I should probably move Misdirection to SB.

[sillyandrew]

@dsck: your list confuses me. i really think you should be running clique as a two-of, and snapcaster as a three-of. four snapcasters seems like too many to me, in a deck like this. i'd even suggest dropping down to two. also, if you're splashing red, you might as well toss in another mountain or two, and play lightning bolts, maybe even fire//ice as a one or two-of. in short, my suggestions are: -3 repeal, -1 spell snare, -1 snapcaster, +4 lightning bolt, +1 clique, but i'm not really even sure that would do the trick.

this is the list i've been playtesting on cockatrice, with decent success.

2 oblivion stone
2 sensei's divining top
2 vedalken shackles

2 sower of temptation
2 vendilion clique

3 jace, the mind sculptor

4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 counterspell
3 spell snare
3 divert

3 back to basics
3 energy field

17 island
3 misty rainforest
3 scalding tarn

--------

2 pithing needle
3 relic of progenitus
1 back to basics
3 propaganda
3 chalice of the void
3 hydroblast


the problems that i'm running into are mainly with the sideboard. chalice is very restrictive since my curve has changed a little bit with all of the one drops, and i'm really thinking of testing mindbreak trap in it's place, even though it's implications are a little less, versatile. i've also been wanting to cut the pithing needles as well, but i can't think of another way to deal with aether vials, other than force of will.

maindeck, i've considered doing a 2/2/2 split of spell snare/divert/echoing truth, rather than the 3/3 (snare/divert) i'm currently running.

and while we're on the subject of divert, allow me to defend the card choice. at first, it's uses seem narrow, but in a lot of cases, it functions strictly better than spell pierce, and in every other case, it two-for-ones (a card in your hand, for a card in theirs, and a permanent) by redirecting the removal that they try to toss at your field. i'd also argue that divert does what misdirection does better than misdirection in the early game, and that's what this deck needs is early game moves. not too much feels better than pointing a hymn back at the opponent's face, especially knowing that you have the opportunity to do so on the play, barring opponent's dark ritual antics, relevant early game cards that divert hits: hymn to tourach, lightning bolt to the face, swords to plowshares, every counterspell. people seem to forget that divert/misdirection can redirect opposing counterspells to counter themselves, so even with a limited stack, divert becomes spell pierce against counterspells. it's not perfect, but it's working, it's catching a lot of people off guard, and once your opponent knows you're playing them, they constantly play around them. there's my two cents.

[Iron Buddha]

I run the same counter package as you except that I run 3 Force Spike where you run 3 Divert. I never played Divert, but theoretically it's awful, because it doesn't stop creatures. In your previous list you have run Force Spike, too, but seemed to have dismissed it then. Why the change? I'm very happy with Force Spike and I even don't run BtB.

Top over Fact is a no no in my opinion. You even only have 6 shuffle effects.

3 BtB + 3 Energy Field. That's another package I don't like. They both have in common that they only act as timewalks, but don't put you in a favourable position by themselves. I think this type of card is the wrong direction.

As for the SB: don't run Relic of progenitus. It's too slow, run something that is faster like Crypt, Extraction, Faerie Macabre. I also run Submerge, which I think is better than Propaganda.

[dsck]

@Iron Buddha
MUC without Back to Basics is just silly, B2B wins so many games when it resolves it isnt even funny.


After lots of testing this is my current list. I defintely needed some STPs to control early game and E.E.'s are just fast enough to do what they are needed to do. 2 Snapcasters seems good, 3-4 is too many. Im not sure about Fact or Fictions.

2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Sower of Temptation

3 Back to Basics
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Engineered Explosives

1 Cryptic Command
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Snare
2 Echoing Truth
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

10 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand

SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Spell Pierce (discard/combo/show&tell)
SB: 2 Phyrexian Metamorph (Thrun/Progenitus/Reanimator)
SB: 3 Chill/Propaganda/Meddling Mage/Firespout/Submerge

[sillyandrew]

@iron buddha: i haven't just dismissed force spike. i ran force spikes pre-mental misstep, and they were the first thing i went back to once it got the ban. i've been testing the diverts in their place, and the results are mixed. when the divert are relevant (team america, zoo, anything red) the deck is a powerhouse, in matches that they're not (elves, most storm combo) they're dead cards, but force spike, arguably isn't a much better alternative, because if you don't get them in your opening hand or so, they're just as dead. i've been thinking about putting them in the sideboard, in the place of hydroblasts.

[Iron Buddha]

On a different note, I'm succesfully running Coralhelm Commander in my recent list (along with Vendilion Clique).

You can play him and still have mana up for countermagic. Next turn summoning sickness fades away and you can level him up just in time for solid damage and once again have mana up for your countermagic.

Coral Commander is what blue got as its Tarmogoyf/Tombstalker. Vendilion Clique just doesn't have the body to be Tarmogoyf/Tombstalker, although it's more efficient.

[John Cox]

What about Delver of secrets in that (coralhelm commander) slot? It's slightly smaller but comes down much earlier.

[Iron Buddha]

You can't flip him consistently (~24 mana sources, no Ponder, Shackles, etc.). That he's faster is a big plus, I agree, but I think there is a much better way to speed the deck up: Chrome Mox.

[sillyandrew]

level up seems pretty bad unless you already have your opponent locked-down with b2b or e-field. he's an interesting choice though, and i'll have to play test with him. still, i think i'd only run him as a two-of, and right now my two-of is pretty solidly sower of temptation.

in regards to delver, he requires a fundimental shift in the deck's construction. if your deck tends towards stack oriented control, he's a superb choice, but if you're running b2b+e-field+shackles+o-stone+propaganda and all the rest of the permanent based control, it's really hard to make sure he's flipped. that being said, top tends to fix that.

i tested a list, very briefly, because i didn't like it that ran delvers though. it was something like:

4 delver of secrets
4 phantasmal bear
2 vendilion clique
2 snapcaster mage

2 energy field
2 back to basics

4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 counterspell
4 spell snare
4 force spike
4 stifle

20 fetches/islands

i'm not sure if that's the exact list i tried, but, like i said, it wasn't very good.

[Iron Buddha]

This deck doesn't work. There is not even one card that makes CA.

I think you should take a look at Chrome Mox. Chrome Mox is breakable in MUC. Chrome Mox has interaction with everything that costs mana.
Shackles costs five, but since the cost is splitted over turns, you can use Chrome Mox mana twice. That's double interaction. Same is true for Coral Commander. If you "vial" him in (in Merfolk) Vial makes two mana, but if you use Chrome Mox to level him up over several turns, you even get three mana!
To make Chrome Mox work, all you need is loads of CA. At some point, Chrome Mox is worth it.
Coral Commander is definitely the not best creature I could think of, but still a solid choice.
I also try to break Cryptic Command, as it has a lot of potential in the right build. Chrome Mox + a better creature base is what is needed to accomplish this I think.
Btw Chrome Mox has amazing interaction with BtB, too.

[serendib]

I'm playing this at the moment.
Lands have never been a problem since now. 18 are perfect number.

12 island
6 U fetchlands

4 delver of secrets
3 vendilion clique
3 snapcaster mage
1 Phyrexian Metamorph

4 force of will
2 counterspell
3 daze
4 spell snare

4 brainstorm
4 ponder

2 dismember

1 repeal
1 echoing truth
1 rushing river

2 vedalken shackles

3 back to basics

sideboard:
3 submerge
3 spell pierce
2 surgical extraction
3 energy field
2 jitte
2 Phantasmal Image


dismember has been huge since now
it also allows to take huge cretures with shackles and it is flashbackable via snapcaster mage

bouncers are very good especially after back to basics hits the board.

the deck can be really offensive as a control deck.

I usually play back to basics turn 3/4 with daze / force / vendilion back up after having played some counters / delvers / cantrip the turns before.
then I just bounce opponent creatures that the opponet suceeded in hitting the board / dismember them.

I made few test so far. but it is performing well.
the sideboard is not tested yet.

[JustPAT4]

@Serendib: No Jace, TMS? I've heard that guy is nasty. Should be able to make room for 2 or 3, right? -1 Rushing River, -1 Spell Snare (maybe?). He just seems too good to pass up, in my opinion.

Cheers

[dsck]

Im 15-3 in matches @ Cockatrice, not that Cockatrice testing carries much weight BUT so far most top tier decks seem favorable matchups.

Current list:
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Sower of Temptation

2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Engineered Explosives

3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Snare
2 Echoing Truth
1 Cryptic Command
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Back to Basics
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

10 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island

SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 2 Chill
SB: 1 Firespout
SB: 1 Misdirection

[Kanti]

I'd take out the Sower and add a Treachery. You already have a lot of cards at the 4cc slow and Treachery would allow you to keep mana open for counters. Since you are running red Fire//Ice seems like a better choice than Truth.

Try to go up to 3 Cliques. Even though you don't run acceleration they are still amazing.

[dsck]

I'd take out the Sower and add a Treachery. You already have a lot of cards at the 4cc slow and Treachery would allow you to keep mana open for counters. Since you are running red Fire//Ice seems like a better choice than Truth.

Try to go up to 3 Cliques. Even though you don't run acceleration they are still amazing.

Thanks for suggestions.

Treachery
I have actually considered it but being 1 mana more than Sower is critical. Being enchantment is also bad considering Qasali Pridemage. Also after SB we will see Krosan Grips which will annihilate Treachery.

Fire//Ice
I intended red splash mainly for E.E. and SB Blasts, Fire//Ice seems nice though. I had trouble against Death and Taxes where Fire//Ice could shine. Echoing Truths have been strong, theres also potentially spicy chances of double bouncing :)

3rd Clique
Will try it.

[dsck]

Had 21 player tournament with 4 rounds of swiss & top 8.

Went 4-0 (8-1) in swiss and lost in quarters 2-1 to Zooish Loam (Nikitin loam?). Loam should have been good matchup but I mulliganed badly in the first game (should have gone to 5 instead of keeping 6 card hand with only 1 land and 2 brainstorms, I stabilized 1 turn too late). 3rd game I also had to take a mulligan and drew bunch of lands when I needed gas.

2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Sower of Temptation
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Snare
2 Echoing Truth
1 Cryptic Command
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
1 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
3 Back to Basics
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
10 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island

SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 3 Delver of Secrets
SB: 3 Submerge

[Tepesh]

Had 21 player tournament with 4 rounds of swiss & top 8.

Went 4-0 (8-1) in swiss and lost in quarters 2-1 to Zooish Loam (Nikitin loam?). Loam should have been good matchup but I mulliganed badly in the first game (should have gone to 5 instead of keeping 6 card hand with only 1 land and 2 brainstorms, I stabilized 1 turn too late). 3rd game I also had to take a mulligan and drew bunch of lands when I needed gas.

2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Sower of Temptation
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Snare
2 Echoing Truth
1 Cryptic Command
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
1 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
3 Back to Basics
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
10 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island

SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 3 Delver of Secrets
SB: 3 Submerge

Please explain your list. It seems very random to me:
1 Spell Pierce
1 Fact or Fiction
2 Echoing Truth
1 Cryptic Command
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
1 Sower of Temptation

Why Delver of Secrets?
Why Submerge?
etc

Im truly interested in your thoughts

22 Lands seems to be not enough - Id always trade the 1-off top for an additional Island

[dsck]

Please explain your list. It seems very random to me:
1 Spell Pierce
1 Fact or Fiction
2 Echoing Truth
1 Cryptic Command
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
1 Sower of Temptation

Why Delver of Secrets?
Why Submerge?
etc

Im truly interested in your thoughts

22 Lands seems to be not enough - Id always trade the 1-off top for an additional Island


1 Spell Pierce - Better than 4th Counterspell after testing - very nice vs zenith for 2 (Qasali).
1 Fact or Fiction - Card Advantage, I would play more if I had room for them
2 Echoing Truth - awesome vs various things, after resolving back to basics you can bounce knight and expect not to see it again
1 Cryptic Command - muc staple, not much to explain
1 Sensei's Divining Top - I would rather not flood + this deck has very few turn 1 plays so top fits well
3 Counterspell - these are so-so in spell snare filled meta but they still counter the things you dont like to see, 3 is good number
3 Spell Snare - 4 is too many, 3 is perfect amount in my opinion.
1 Sower of Temptation it will be 1 for 1, if they dont have removal or i have locked the game with back to basics i can ride to victory with this

Why Delver of Secrets? Against ANT/TES/High Tide, fast clock. Also good if your opponent sides in lots of artifact removal you can switch your game plan to pseudo Threshish style with lots of instants + Delvers.
Why Submerge? free removal spell vs zenith type of decks

I suggest you test running the list :smile:

[Tepesh]

1 Spell Pierce - Better than 4th Counterspell after testing - very nice vs zenith for 2 (Qasali).
1 Fact or Fiction - Card Advantage, I would play more if I had room for them
2 Echoing Truth - awesome vs various things, after resolving back to basics you can bounce knight and expect not to see it again
1 Cryptic Command - muc staple, not much to explain
1 Sensei's Divining Top - I would rather not flood + this deck has very few turn 1 plays so top fits well
3 Counterspell - these are so-so in spell snare filled meta but they still counter the things you dont like to see, 3 is good number
3 Spell Snare - 4 is too many, 3 is perfect amount in my opinion.
1 Sower of Temptation it will be 1 for 1, if they dont have removal or i have locked the game with back to basics i can ride to victory with this

Why Delver of Secrets? Against ANT/TES/High Tide, fast clock. Also good if your opponent sides in lots of artifact removal you can switch your game plan to pseudo Threshish style with lots of instants + Delvers.
Why Submerge? free removal spell vs zenith type of decks

I suggest you test running the list :smile:

Well i should have said that im concerned about those cards being only a 1-off.

My concern about Submerge is that it doesnt help with any of the problems of MUC. Why are 3 Snares enough? Isnt Legacy the 2mana win the game creature format? Goyf, Confidant, Mythic etc

[dsck]

Well i should have said that im concerned about those cards being only a 1-off.

My concern about Submerge is that it doesnt help with any of the problems of MUC. Why are 3 Snares enough? Isnt Legacy the 2mana win the game creature format? Goyf, Confidant, Mythic etc

Theres lots of 3, 4 and even 5 mana spells you must counter. I started the list with lots of 4-ofs but it has molded into this.

Currently the biggest problem this deck has are all the Pyroblasts/REBs being played in the top decks (namely canadian thresh). I admit that Submerges dont help with that, Chalice @ 1 would be very nice if you could get it consistently post SB.

[sillyandrew]

the following is a small write-up for two tournaments that i've brought MUC to in the past week or so. i didn't do entirely well in either of them, but i feel like the match-up info here is pretty relevant given the current meta-game. i'm placing this write-up here in the MUC thread because i didn't do particularly well, so no one's going to want to read it in the tournament reports thread. it only exists to provided insight to those of us still playing MUC (unless i'm the only one left).

additionally, honestly, the only point of this is to prove and confirm that the banning of mental misstep didn't kill MUC, and that being said, i'll cut to it.

this was my list in both tournaments, and aside from maybe a card or two, i'd say it's about as optimal as MUC can really get right now.


2x vendilion clique
2x sower of temptation
2x vedalken shackles
3x jace, the mind sculptor

2x oblivion stone
2x sensei's divining top
3x energy field
3x back to basics

4x brainstorm
4x force of will
4x counterspell
3x spell snare
3x force spike

17x island
3x misty rainforest
3x scalding tarn


i really don't think there's too much that needs to be said for this list as far as card choices go, but i think this composition is about as tight as we can currently get. in response to a few of the more recent posts in this thread, just allow me to reiterate: BACK TO BASICS IS THE ONLY REASON ANYONE SHOULD BE PLAYING THIS DECK, and there should be four copies of it in every possible conception of MUC. there's literally no reason not to.

the first event was a 36 person tournament at redcap's corner in philadelphia; a shop that i've never been to before, thus, i rolled with this sideboard:


1x back to basics
2x pithing needle
3x propaganda
3x relic of progenitus
2x hydroblast
4x mindbreak trap


i really expected to see a lot of storm combo, so the mindbreak traps seemed pretty good. that being said, i didn't play a single combo deck that day, and i honestly don't think anyone was playing storm at all. if they were, i didn't hear about it.

round one vs. the rock:

this dude was honestly the nicest guy i met all day and all three of our games where a real pleasure. game one, i won the roll, he mulled to four, and i won via jace with very little resistance at all. i felt kind of bad for winning this way, but a win is a win. game two we both mulled to six, but he kept a way better hand than i did. if i recall, it looked something like: counterspell, clique, o-stone, and three islands. i drew into total shit, and he swung for lethal with goyfs i couldn't deal with. game three he mulled to six again, i kept a solid seven, took a few hymns to the dome, dropped back to basics, and was able to stabilize hard with a couple energy fields. most of the game was pretty draw-go, and energy field locked him so hard that i actually won the game because he doubled up on the dark confidants the turn before i dropped my second field. he couldn't top away the damage, and his bobs plus my clique made for a three or four turn clock.

at this point, off to a solid start: 1-0 (2-1)

round two vs. G/W maverick (with red splash):

this is the match-up i hate the most. they have maindeck answers for a lot of our tricks, and my opponent played very well in all three of our games. game one was a blow-out in his favor. i had no idea what he was playing when we sat down, and i kept a hand that couldn't deal with the amount of creatures he kept churning out. i dropped a shackles and stalled him for a few turns before he gsz'd for a pridemage, and swung through for lethal. game two he mulled to six (i think?) and back to basics kept him on a single forest for most of the game (i guess he just couldn't find his fetches). cliques and sowers swung over for the win after a really long game. we went into game three with about then minutes left on the clock, and pretty soon just about the entire room was standing over our shoulders while we went to turns. there simply wasn't enough time for either of us to really win, and we drew. after the match we both griped about how the entire room scouted our decks. that's partly the evil of playing dedicated control decks: long games. over all, i was really happy with the draw, because honestly, this is a terrible match-up for us.

record so far: 1-0-1 (3-2-1)

round three vs. RUG control w/ burnwillows + punishing fire:

at the risk of flaming, and sounding like a total asshole, this opponent was a real dick, and this whole round was a horrible, horrible experience.

i needed to run out to the parking meter right before this match, and since my last game went to turns, i didn't have very much time. i make it back, out of breath, a few minutes into the round, and my opponent doesn't look very happy about it. off to a bad start.

while we were shuffling, i guess i was spacing out just sort of staring at my hands while shuffling. he called me out for looking at my cards while shuffling, i apologized, but i guess i said something wrong, and he called the judge, refusing to talk about it. i guess he was in the right for calling the judge, but i really wasn't trying to pull one over on anyone. a long drawn out discussion later, i get a warning for insufficient shuffling, we get a ten minute time extension, and i want to strangle my opponent. the whole experience put me a little on edge.

game one was a disgusting blow out in my favor. it was land go all the way to turn three, i resolve a back to basics that locks him out of his entire deck, and he scoops. the whole game only took about five minutes. the satisfaction of winning almost made up for his enormous douchebaggery. almost. game two took for ever. i think we both mulled to six, i kept a hand with back to basics, locked him down early, but couldn't find any threats at all. honestly, i think he punishing fire'd me to death with the help of goyf only swinging once or twice. game three, was pretty much the same for the first few turns: i locked him down with back to basics early, but he k-gripped it. i drop a second back to basics, he resolves a snapcaster mage after a counter war, flashes back k-grip, hits the second back to basics, and rides burns to a victory. shitty. this match-up comes back to haunt me later in the event (see round six), and i'm raging because i just lost to the biggest asshole in the room.

that puts me at: 1-1-1 (4-4-1)

round four vs. bant aggro:

before i break down the games, i just want to start by saying that this is the match-up i love to see. it's heavily weighted in our favor, and with experience, it's practically a bye. that being said, my opponent was a fantastic player, and made top-8 (i left before they played it out, so i don't now how he did after that.)

game one back to basics locked him out of just about all of his business, and he swung through for a few damage with hierachs before i stabilized with shackles and sowers, riding jace to a victory. while boarding he kept talking about how unprepared he was for the sower of temptations. it was a good feeling. game two and three are a little blurry here, but he won them both in just about the same fashion: obviously realizing that his goyfs and cliques were auto-shackle targets he constantly gsz'd for his exalted creatures, dealt with my shackles and pretty much played around everything i threw at him. exalted triggers stack up really fast, and i'm burnt out pretty quickly in back to back games. we shook hands, and i go off to sulk in the corner. there's really not much else i can say about this match. it went to three games but there's really no excuse as to why i lost. i should have won. i didn't do anything wrong, no missplays, no poor judgement, i was simply outplayed. kudos to my opponent. still, i feel like shit.

at this point: 1-2-1 (5-6-1)

round five vs. team america:

this is the match-up i really dreaded seeing the most, and have done a lot of playtesting around. their discard makes our fields nothing more than a hiccup, and there really isn't any reason at all that this should be an easy match-up for the MUC player. that being said, i needed a pick-me-up, and played like a champ. his first mistake was not running any basic lands.

back to basics practically hard locked him game one, and he really couldn't do much anything. still, he chose to play the whole thing out, and wasted a lot of time while clique flew over on a seven turn clock. game two was a lot of the same, but the attrition was much worse. i stabilized on an energy field turn five or so, and it was draw-land-go, all the way until we both had full hands, i kept dropping islands, and he was constantly forced to discard down from eight. at one point, it got to where i was forced to drop a fetch from my hand, giving him an out to energy field with his untapped wastelands. i kept quiet, and he never popped them. eventually i found a jace, and rode him to the win.

after the games i explained that he had an out to energy field, and he told me that he knew, but it didn't matter because he couldn't deal with the two shackles i resolved in the mean-time. i nodded, agreed, and we signed the slip.

so, getting a little better: 2-2-1 (7-6-1)

round six vs. RUG countertop w/ burnwillos + punishing fire:

i've come to accept that this match-up blows, and with this opponent opting for the countertop engine over counterspells, it made it that much harder. all i needed to do was win the match, and i could top eight, albeit, i'd be in the seventh or eighth spot, but hey, better than nothing. that didn't happen.

these games more than any others, are kinda blurry. game one i'm pretty sure he resolved an early jace, fate sealed me all the way to eleven for i drew a jace of my own and bombed his away. by that time he burned me for more than enough damage, fatesealed away all of my business, and i couldn't stabilize at all. off to game two pretty quickly. game two, i draw total shit, mulligan to six, keeping total shit, and really don't draw anything other than relics and islands. i manage to draw the game out to the last few minutes of the round, but he wins. fuck.

and that's it: 2-3-1 (7-8-1)

given my record, i feel way better about the finish than i should. i lost to bant, yeah, and that's shitty, but it was to a really good player, and i was legitimately outplayed. i discount that lost. my other two loses were to pretty much the same deck, and one that i think is just a bad match-up for us. there really isn't much we can do recurring punishing fires because they stop all of our win-cons: they stall/shrink jace until he's dead, they drop cliques and sowers, and outlast our wall of counters. so long as the opponent can deal with back to basics, there really isn't much we can do. these loses hurt the most, but i understand why.

with the exception of game one, round one, i won literally every game with back to basics. i think three in the deck, one in the board is the perfect spread, and if i'd make any change to it at all, it'd just be find room for the fourth in the main. like i (and many more) have said over and over again: it's the whole reason we play MUC. end of story.

i played this same deck tonight at my local shop's weekly FNM legacy event (which i haven't been able to make it to in almost a month). because i know that my shop has literally no combo players, i switched up the sideboard:


1x back to basics
2x pithing needle
3x propaganda
3x relic of progenitus
3x hydroblast
3x divert


divert is a card i originally had maindecked. i testing it as a one-of, two-of, and even as a three-of, but ultimately it didn't have a place. at the philly tourney, i was too afraid storm combo to keep the mindbreak traps at home, so they were ejected from the board as well. but that being said. they play fantastically. onto the second event. i placed third.

round one vs. affinity:

this is a match-up i used to hate. when mental misstep came around, it got a lot better, and then when it was banned, it got worse again. it took a lot of evolution to get my deck to it's current state, and it's current state shits all over affinity.

both games played out exactly the same way: turn two energy fields lock down, and my creatures fly over for quick wins. we were the first table finished (which never happens, ever), and as we cleaned up he admitted that his sideboard was totally unprepared for my deck. if he was running removal for the fields (or even the creatures for that matter) he didn't see it.

good start: 1-0 (2-0)

round two vs. tempo thresh:

this is a list i love to play myself, i've always been a huge rug player, and because of that, i like to see rug on both sides of the table.

game one is land-go for a few turns, i resolve a back to basics turn three, and a jace turn five (playing around daze) that i ride to victory despite eating a few bolts. i counter literally all of his threats, and it's off to game two. game two is a little bit of the same, but he counters my first back to basics, and fetched for islands and forest to play around my second. it gets to the point where i drop a jace, and fateseal him to seven counters. he manages to resolve three delvers of secrets. and just they all swing jace into the ground, i top deck an o-stone, fate jace eot, and wipe the board. jace rebuilds to ultimate, and he scoops.

feeling pretty good: 2-0 (4-0)

game three vs. B/w blade control:

before the match my opponent groaned because we were the only 2-0 players at this point, and knew the match-up was coming. he dreaded it, probably rightfully so, but ended up winning the round, and the FNM promo cards.

there's literally nothing i can say about these games. i drew like total shit the whole round, i couldn't brainstorm+fetch into any business at all, and i got stomped on. game two ended because shackles couldn't actually shackle his mystics (without him tapping them in response) or his batterskull (without him bouncing in response) and i get my face beat in, no contest. there was nothing i could do.

third place finish: 2-1 (4-2)

the deck doesn't feel as strong as it did when mental misstep was legal, but that's a given. that being said, don't count it out, MUC isn't dead by any means.

the only change i've really felt like i've need to make recently is putting a fourth energy field in the board. in some match-us, it might as well be a turn two win.

keep playing back to basics. hopefully this was useful.

[vogel]

Hey Guys

Maybe we have the MUC comeback :)

14th on SGC
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=43863

It would be great, if there is someone who knows something about the list, the main point which i don't understand is: Why no Jace?
Maybe i try to test the list and sleeve up my B2B :P

your Thougts?

[Kagehisa]

Hi guys,

I'm almost back to play MUC !
My cards was stolen in a store by a bastard when I was starting to actively playtest the deck. I never had the chance to play competitively with my deck...

Nowadays, I almost own the cards all the lost cards, my deck was Kadaj's exact list in the opening post. Right now, 4 Back to basics and 3 Vedalken Shackles are missing to complete my deck... but checking the thread, i see that MUC really has changed...

I thought MUC hadn't enought removal to clear the board to land a Jace... Energy Field or Propaganda don't protect Planeswalkers against attacking creatures... then, what am I missing ?

[sillyandrew]

Hi guys,

I'm almost back to play MUC !
My cards was stolen in a store by a bastard when I was starting to actively playtest the deck. I never had the chance to play competitively with my deck...

Nowadays, I almost own the cards all the lost cards, my deck was Kadaj's exact list in the opening post. Right now, 4 Back to basics and 3 Vedalken Shackles are missing to complete my deck... but checking the thread, i see that MUC really has changed...

I thought MUC hadn't enought removal to clear the board to land a Jace... Energy Field or Propaganda don't protect Planeswalkers against attacking creatures... then, what am I missing ?

since the mental misstep ban, I've played MUC to a little success (a few second place finishes at small 8-16 man tournaments), but it's mostly been flop after flop after flop, and yeah, you're right, it's mostly due to the lack of removal. the format is fast, and even the decks that aren't very fast, have turn one drops we have a hard time dealing with: goblin guide, delver, mom, lackey, and so on. of course, MUC had this problem way before mental misstep was a factor, but the post-MM metagame is really quite different, today the least. ratchet bomb and powder keg, even dropping turn two on the play means that guide hits you twice, lackey hits once, delver can flip and swing, and mom's active, so it's still a little too slow.

additionally, vedalken shackles is an amazing card, but is mostly out-plays by stoneforge mystic and batterskull. you can shackle the SFM, but it's probably been in play long enough to cheat something in, and on our side of the board, is only a 1/2. you can shackle the batterskull itself, but the player has a chance to bounce it to their hand any time they have three mana floating. in order to really deal with SFM and her bag of tricks, you need two shackles on the board, which can't happen until turn four...

because of SFM, I've been trying to run four spell snares, instead of the three I've run historically. of course, spell snare is a fantastic card, but there are decks that just inherently run around it. I've done hella playtesting in my group against UR delver, and a deck like that really only has one or two targets for the snare (snapcaster Mage, and pop, which is dead against us anyway). are SFM and snapcaster Mage enough to push our spell snare number to four? I know a lot of people ran four snares from the get-go...

originally, in the wake of MM, I ran force spike as a three of, and when I started feeling iffy about them, I ran diverts in their place, and when that was too narrow, I started playing flusterstorm. all three cards seem really underwhelming, but honestly, I felt the safest behind a force spike.

there's a ton more I could say, but I'm already late for work. more later.

[Erdvermampfa]

What's even more important is that Jace the Mindsculptor became quite unreliable as a wincondition because the amount of burnspells rocketed with the appearence of Delver of Secrets. Besides, there's the Punishing Fire plan which is used by most of the Maverick decks these days and which basically invalids Planeswalker (or Jace at least) as a wincondition in general.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Deleted.

[MGB]

What's even more important is that Jace the Mindsculptor became quite unreliable as a wincondition because the amount of burnspells rocketed with the appearence of Delver of Secrets. Besides, there's the Punishing Fire plan which is used by most of the Maverick decks these days and which basically invalids Planeswalker (or Jace at least) as a wincondition in general.

We have people worrying about Punishing Fire decks now? This is Mono Blue Control we're talking about! Every Mono Blue Control deck should be running 4 Back to Basics in the maindeck - no exceptions. Any deck that relies on Punishing Fire gets trucked by B2B! And if you're not playing 4 Back to Basics in the maindeck, then why are you playing Mono Blue Control at all? You might as well just play Landstill or some other U/W/x control deck that can play dual lands.

Here's a list I have been playing for ~2 years now and have had quite a bit of success with (no major tournaments however, I lack the time/funds, but I'm sure this would do well, especially in the current metagame):

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
13 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

4 Ancestral Vision
2 Fact or Fiction

4 Spell Snare / Spell Pierce (depending on meta & pref)
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Leak

4 Engineered Explosives
4 Vedalken Shackles
4 Back to Basics

4 Jace, The Mind Sculptor

sb:
4 Vendilion Clique
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Dream Tides


- The fetchlands and Mountain/Forest are in there solely to support Engineered Explosives. Alternatively, you can play 4 Powder Keg or 4 Ratchet Bomb instead of the EE, and then not have to use fetchlands at all. However, Explosives is a bit faster and helps to deal with Delver of the Secrets decks a little bit better. It also evades Krosan Grip better because you can play it and pop it without passing priority. Fetchlands also make Jace +0 ability stronger. BUT I have had success with both versions - w/ fetchlands + EE and w/o fetchlands + PK.

[klaus]

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
13 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

4 Ancestral Vision
2 Fact or Fiction

4 Spell Snare / Spell Pierce (depending on meta & pref)
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Leak

4 Engineered Explosives
4 Vedalken Shackles
4 Back to Basics

4 Jace, The Mind Sculptor

sb:
4 Vendilion Clique
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Dream Tides


- The fetchlands and Mountain/Forest are in there solely to support Engineered Explosives. Alternatively, you can play 4 Powder Keg or 4 Ratchet Bomb instead of the EE, and then not have to use fetchlands at all. However, Explosives is a bit faster and helps to deal with Delver of the Secrets decks a little bit better. It also evades Krosan Grip better because you can play it and pop it without passing priority. Fetchlands also make Jace +0 ability stronger. BUT I have had success with both versions - w/ fetchlands + EE and w/o fetchlands + PK.

Where is Temporal Mastery?

[MGB]

Where is Temporal Mastery?

I haven't even begun to consider the use of that new spell. You'd have to play Brainstorm to make it work, and then you'd need to take out 8 cards just to play it. What do you take out? Counters? I don't think there's room to support Brainstorm+Mastery in a deck that needs every slot to be devoted to either: a.) card draw or b.) answers

[death]

Where is Temporal Mastery?

Where is Brainstorm? I'm guessing Ancestral > Brainstorm > Mastery.

edit: nvm beat me to it.

[MGB]

Where is Brainstorm? I'm guessing Ancestral > Brainstorm > Mastery.

edit: nvm beat me to it.

In Mono Blue Control, Ancestral Vision is superior to Brainstorm. You can't count on having fetchlands AND brainstorm, and without fetchlands, brainstorm is nothing but a cycler.

One possibility is removing the 4 Ancestral Vision for 4 Brainstorm, then playing Temporal Mastery in place of Mana Leak or Fact or Fiction. I haven't done any testing with this new card yet, but if i were to test it, I would do this.

[serendib]

I think these two cards will be played in legacy, and you need to consider them as your enemies
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129943&stc=1&d=1334142624
and
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129809&d=1333846379

we need LIFEGAIN between main and sideboard otherwise we are gonna lose to any deck running burn spells (or something to protect us from burn spells).
so we need to splash W for swords to plowshares maindeck and some lifegain card in the side (such as timely reinforcements, kitchen finks o circle of protection)

Another aspect I would consider is that timewalk effect allows you not only to make a second land drop, but also to have a further attack phase. so if you decide not to use creatures, you are not optimizine timewalk effect. so, we better use snapcaster too.

I would suggest something like that

4 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
2 marsh flats
9 island
2 plains
1 swamp
1 tundra

4 snapcaster mage
4 jace tms

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 temporal mastery

4 force of will
4 counterspell

4 Swords to plowshares
2 engineered explosives
2 BtB
2 V.Shackles

side:
3 meddling mage
3 spell pierce
2 vendilion clique
2 kitchen finxs
2 timely reinforcements
3 surgical extraction

with 8 cantrips, timewalk turn 2 is quite easy, so you can even jace turn 3 ...

[klaus]

4 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
2 marsh flats
9 island
2 plains
1 swamp
1 tundra

4 snapcaster mage
4 jace tms

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 temporal mastery

4 force of will
4 counterspell

4 Swords to plowshares
2 engineered explosives
2 BtB
2 V.Shackles

side:
3 meddling mage
3 spell pierce
2 vendilion clique
2 kitchen finxs
2 timely reinforcements
3 surgical extraction

with 8 cantrips, timewalk turn 2 is quite easy, so you can even jace turn 3 ...

If I'm not mistaken turn 2 Miracles can't happen without additional mana accel, since your oblidged to cast it in your draw phase (before you can play your second land):

"120.1. A player draws a card by putting the top card of his or her library into his or her hand. This is done as a turn-based action during each player’s draw step. It may also be done as part of a cost or effect of a spell or ability. If it is the first card drawn that turn, the player may reveal the card if it has the ability "Miracle". It stays revealed until the end of the draw step.

702.91a Miracle affects the way the card is drawn (see rule 120.1) allowing you to reveal it if it is the first card drawn that turn, and is a triggered ability (see rule 603.10). "Miracle [cost]" means "When you reveal this card while drawing it, you may cast it by paying [cost] rather than its mana cost."

I added the part about revealing it until the end of the draw step because I realized the card would currently be un-revealed between revealing it and casting it, so there would be no way to ensure it was the same object. This may be of no real significance, but it would still be an internal error if another card of the same name were to be cast instead."

Correct me if I'm wrong!
btw: I like the rest of your deck, though 2 Plains is 1 too many and that basic swamp should clearly be U.Sea or another Island.

[Kich867]

See, the Burn thread doesn't actually explicitly state that the deck is mono-red, it's implied. And yet somehow, the burn thread is able to maintain that it really only cares about it being mono-red and splashing any other color wouldn't really make it burn. Or, more accurately, mono-red burn.

It kind of blows my mind when people go into a thread named "mono-blue control" and suggest adding another color to it. If you add another color to it, it's not mono-blue control. It's not a tier 1 deck, it's not really meant to be, the discussion also shouldn't be trying to push it into other colors when that's not what it does.

Back to Basics, maximizing the effectiveness of Force of Will, Jace, and the love of blue are the only reasons you're playing this deck. If you want to splash colors, if you want to add swords to plowshares, then what's stopping you from adding everything else that's white that is powerful? Why stop at just swords?

I agree about ancestral recall however. I'd like to see more lists running it. In regards to Vexing Devil and the Miracle burn, you won't run into many decks running the miracle burn. It's gimmicky, and while it's cool, it's actually hard to utilize well without a lot of setup, and cards that rely on a lot of setup aren't great choices because when you don't -have- that setup they're really bad. It's a powerful burn spell, but it comes at a pretty big cost. No one wants it in their opening hand and the decks that do want it don't run enough consistent deck manipulation to make it useful.

Vexing Devil, on the other hand, is scary as hell for this deck. It hates strong turn 1 plays because it takes too long to stabilize. If you let it resolve you're probably taking 8 before you can deal with it. If you don't, you're taking 4. Odds are, you should eat the devil to the face and hope they aren't on burn.

[MGB]

People should try playing the mono-blue list with Engineered Explosives and Shackles as the only creature control.

Sure, it's sometimes nice to have Swords to Plowshares early in the game against a cheap threat, but in the end, you can accomplish 90% of what Landstill does vs. creatures with 4 Explosives and 4 Shackles. You're just a little bit slower doing so, but often the power of a rock-steady manabase, Back to Basics, and an overwhelming number of counterspells makes up for that.

[serendib]

People should try playing the mono-blue list with Engineered Explosives and Shackles as the only creature control.

Sure, it's sometimes nice to have Swords to Plowshares early in the game against a cheap threat, but in the end, you can accomplish 90% of what Landstill does vs. creatures with 4 Explosives and 4 Shackles. You're just a little bit slower doing so, but often the power of a rock-steady manabase, Back to Basics, and an overwhelming number of counterspells makes up for that.

You run Engineered Explosives thus splashing for 2 additional colours.
Are you telling me that adding Swords to Plowshares + Snapcaster Mage too is bad beacuse you want to play pure mono U ???
(while E.E. is good because it is colorless even if you need non-blue mana to play him...)

Landstill is a control deck Uxy based on menland+standstill. not comparable.

[igri_is_a_bk]

I played a decent session yesterday. I probably got in 5-6 full matches, and won them all. I even beat UW Thopter Foundry after he resolved the combo for ~5 turns, so this deck has a seriously strong late game. I thought Thopter Foundry would have a better end game, but nope.

17 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision
1 Ponder
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Back to Basics
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Echoing Truth
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Spell Pierce
4 Curfew

Do you think the deck will use both Ancestral Visions and Temporal Mastery once it's legal? There's something about playing 4 Ancestral Recalls and 4 Time Walks that looks very appealing.

Let's see, what is there to talk about with the list... Echoing Truth. I know that card looks kinda vanilla, but something is going to slip through your 8 counterspells. Count on it. And the bounce utility is exceptionally strong when you have as much card advantage as this deck does. I always found time to bounce whatever I needed and still counter it without falling behind. Snapcaster helped greatly in accomplishing that.

Ancestral Visions is what keeps you in the game. Suspend it on turn one, and survive until it resolves, and I guarantee you'll find yourself ahead. It hits play right around the time you feel like your hand is dwindling too low and buries the opponent in CA. I can't sing its praises enough.

Back to Basics is still great. Even though the enemy fetches weakened it a bit, it'll still shut down at least half of their mana, in my experiences. It's completely dead in multiples, outside pitching to Force, so I only added three and I'm comfortable with that number right now. I played against 43 Lands online and the guy called me a cheater for playing B2B. Player Lost.

I'm loving 4 Clique and 4 Snapcaster. Finally, blue has some creatures it can cast before turn five that don't completely suck. Clique especially - it is like a counterspell that hits for 3 a turn. It fits the role of MUC's aggressor so well, I don't even know what to say.

From the board, Curfew is awesome against RUG Tempo (which I played twice), and along with EE, are the only outs this deck has to Nimble Mongoose. Flashing in Snapcaster to block before they have Threshold also worked pretty well at killing that little critter, but you need some support for g2 and g3. Plus, Curfew has great synergy with Snapcaster and Clique, since bouncing them is actually advantageous (especially Snappy).

I can say you don't need to splash other colors. There are plenty of options in blue, and besides, you aren't going to reliably get your one splashed basic land into play that often. If you have 4 fetches and 1 basic, that's less than 50% odds of seeing it in your opener and digging for the right colors is not what you should be wasting your time doing. You're slow enough, don't make yourself slower.

[MGB]

You run Engineered Explosives thus splashing for 2 additional colours.
Are you telling me that adding Swords to Plowshares + Snapcaster Mage too is bad beacuse you want to play pure mono U ???
(while E.E. is good because it is colorless even if you need non-blue mana to play him...)

Landstill is a control deck Uxy based on menland+standstill. not comparable.

Adding Swords to Plowshares would necessitate playing dual-lands. You can't play 1 Plains and 4 Fetch and expect to cast it with regularity.

The reason EE works in Mono-Blue is because you can still cast it for 1 mana and make use of it. Thus, you are capable of only playing 2 non-islands and 8 fetches and not having to worry about not getting your colors.

Landstill is basically Mono Blue Control (same basic shell) that splashes W and/or other colors for creature / permanent control. Some people play Standstill as the draw engine, but others play Ancestral Vision in U/W/x "Landstill" control decks, just like Mono Blue Control.

[MGB]

I played a decent session yesterday. I probably got in 5-6 full matches, and won them all. I even beat UW Thopter Foundry after he resolved the combo for ~5 turns, so this deck has a seriously strong late game. I thought Thopter Foundry would have a better end game, but nope.

17 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision
1 Ponder
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Back to Basics
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Echoing Truth
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Spell Pierce
4 Curfew

Do you think the deck will use both Ancestral Visions and Temporal Mastery once it's legal? There's something about playing 4 Ancestral Recalls and 4 Time Walks that looks very appealing.

Let's see, what is there to talk about with the list... Echoing Truth. I know that card looks kinda vanilla, but something is going to slip through your 8 counterspells. Count on it. And the bounce utility is exceptionally strong when you have as much card advantage as this deck does. I always found time to bounce whatever I needed and still counter it without falling behind. Snapcaster helped greatly in accomplishing that.

Ancestral Visions is what keeps you in the game. Suspend it on turn one, and survive until it resolves, and I guarantee you'll find yourself ahead. It hits play right around the time you feel like your hand is dwindling too low and buries the opponent in CA. I can't sing its praises enough.

Back to Basics is still great. Even though the enemy fetches weakened it a bit, it'll still shut down at least half of their mana, in my experiences. It's completely dead in multiples, outside pitching to Force, so I only added three and I'm comfortable with that number right now. I played against 43 Lands online and the guy called me a cheater for playing B2B. Player Lost.

I'm loving 4 Clique and 4 Snapcaster. Finally, blue has some creatures it can cast before turn five that don't completely suck. Clique especially - it is like a counterspell that hits for 3 a turn. It fits the role of MUC's aggressor so well, I don't even know what to say.

From the board, Curfew is awesome against RUG Tempo (which I played twice), and along with EE, are the only outs this deck has to Nimble Mongoose. Flashing in Snapcaster to block before they have Threshold also worked pretty well at killing that little critter, but you need some support for g2 and g3. Plus, Curfew has great synergy with Snapcaster and Clique, since bouncing them is actually advantageous (especially Snappy).

I can say you don't need to splash other colors. There are plenty of options in blue, and besides, you aren't going to reliably get your one splashed basic land into play that often. If you have 4 fetches and 1 basic, that's less than 50% odds of seeing it in your opener and digging for the right colors is not what you should be wasting your time doing. You're slow enough, don't make yourself slower.

I agree with everything you said, except the following:

- Echoing Truth is card disadvantage and should never be played in a control deck that cares about lasting into the late-game phase. It belongs only in a combo deck that doesn't care about card disadvantage as much as it cares about bouncing hate and winning. I'd rather just play a mass-removal spell such as Powder Keg or Engineered Explosives.

- I like Vendilion Clique alot, and have it as a 4-of in my sb, but against too many decks it is extremely mediocre, and doesn't really belong in the maindeck, imho. Against decks with lots of threat density that don't care if you send one of their spells to the bottom of their deck because they just draw another similar spell - like Zoo, or Goblins, or Burn, or RUG Tempo - it is nothing more than a 3/1 flier that will turn on their removal spells. It is obviously excellent vs. Control and Combo decks, however, and deserves to at least be in the SB. If you are in a metagame that has alot more Combo/Control than Aggro/Tempo decks, I guess playing Clique MD is justified.

[Greenpoe]

Repeal is just better than Echoing Truth in MUC. With Repeal, you can do neat things like Repeal your own Snapcaster to save it from removal, play Snapcaster again to use Repeal on something they have, and you get to draw 2 from all that nonsense. That's a good bit of CA.

[igri_is_a_bk]

I understand Echoing Truth is card disadvantage. If you have Back to Basics or Vedalken Shackles in play, that may not be true. If you use Snapcaster on it, that's definitely not true. Considering all the card advantage spells in there (Vision, Snapcaster, Shackles, Jace), you can afford to bounce one spell a game. It just buys time that you desperately need.

You can't flashback Repeal because it has X in it, which will be 0. I had Repeal as my bounce spell originally, but I wanted something better with Snapcaster, so I went with Echoing Truth.

And E. Truth has random application against Storm (bouncing Goblins), Dredge (bouncing Zombies or Ichorids), and saved me against Thopter Foundry combo. It's also good at bouncing stuff like Batterskull and Jace, where Repeal isn't.

I disagree that Vendilion Clique is sideboard material. MUC's biggest problem is closing out the game, and Clique does that well. Attacking with Clique, Snappy, and Shackled guys - or -Jace's ultimate are the only ways you're going to win. I can't see myself cutting any of those cards, because I'll be stressing myself too much to protect my fewer win cons.

[Zalren]

I have been thinking about running a build like this with the new Time Walk.

Lands - 23
17 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn

Creatures - 7
3 Masticore
4 Vendilion Clique

Spells - 30
4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Temporal Mastery
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Back to Basics
3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Sensei's Divining Top


Going old school with Masticore because he can ping off all those x/1 and x/2 creatures for a little mana investment. We will have so much card advantage with Jace and AV that we can afford the downside.

[Kich867]

I have been thinking about running a build like this with the new Time Walk.

Lands - 23
17 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn

Creatures - 7
3 Masticore
4 Vendilion Clique

Spells - 30
4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Temporal Mastery
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Back to Basics
3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Sensei's Divining Top


Going old school with Masticore because he can ping off all those x/1 and x/2 creatures for a little mana investment. We will have so much card advantage with Jace and AV that we can afford the downside.

I would drop some cliques out of there. Multiple cliques are kinda sketchy--your list looks a little dubious with only 8 counters in it. Top's are kind of useless as well, maybe go down to 1.

I would drop 2 cliques and 2 tops for some number of Spell Snare's and/or something else. Spell Snare is strong, however.

I dig Masticore, on the other hand. He seems actually like a really strong answer to a lot of blue's issues. Which is funny. People have moved so far away from these old cards that were designed to answer problems, and yet these problems never go away, so it only makes sense to go back to what worked, right? Masticore is naturally out of bolt range, he's got regen, and while his upkeep cost is kinda brutal, ancestral visions is ensuring serious cards in hand. Visions + Jace is a lot of cards.

[Greenpoe]

Clique is one of the best creatures in the format. Using it as a win-con, you're not afraid if someone kills it, because this is a control deck, not an aggro-deck, so the legend-rule isn't a big deal. If someone kills one, just play another. No big deal.
Second, there's no point in running Top. Maybe if you were running Trinket Mage, but otherwise, 3-4 Tops are the way to go. Got multiples? Shuffle them away.

[serendib]

@ MGB: of course I need a dual + 8 fetch + 2/3 plains. I don't see your point. Any list running e.e. should run 1/2 dual anyway.

@ igri_is_a_bk: I really apreciate your list. especially the only 8 hard counterspells. curfew is a nice call. anyway I think you should take e.e. mainboard beacuse their are so hot vs rug hitting all their creatures and vs maverik too.

generally speaking about muc and control decks:

A) I seriously think players should drop draw spells (such as AV, FoF, AK ... ) and just run cards that give us card advantage. most of them have body too. it's Magic since Jace was printed.

B) Lifegain is going to be a must very soon because burn decks are getting very strong. There are 3 ways to my view to protect us from that:
- run energy field (this list for example is awesome : http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/visualview.php?iddeck=56707&id=7791)
- run some batterskull and maybe some Solemn Simulacrum too to manaramp
- run white spells in the side such as baneslayer angel, timely reinforcements or kitchen finkx

C) if you want to run e.e. with no StP -> some trinket mages are very good [see also point A) as for card advantage is concerned]

may I propose you these 2 build ?

1) trinket mono U

4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
10 island
1 plains
1 swamp
1 tundra
1 underground sea

4 jace, the mind sculptor
4 trinket mage
2 snapcaster mage
2 vendilion clique

4 brainstorm
4 preordain
1 sensei's devining top
1 pithing needle

4 force of will
4 counterspell

4 engineered explosives
2 vedalken shackles
2 back to basics

sideboard: trinket tools, 2/3 lifegain cards ...

2) milk muc

22 lands [8 fetch 1 tundra 1 sea 2 plains 1 academy ruins 9 island]

4 jace, the mind scultor
4 snapcaster mage
4 trinket mage

4 brainstorm
4 preordain
1 sensei's devining top
1 pithing needle

4 force of will
4 counterspell

4 Swords to plowshares
2 engineered explosives
2 vedalken shackles

(back to basics in the side)

what you think ?

[igri_is_a_bk]

I think Trinket Mage is less impressive than Vendilion Clique. If you drop that whole package, you can add more Shackles, B2B, Cliques and Snapcasters. Those are the stronger cards on average.

I'm dropping an Island from my list for a single Spell Snare. I'd also like to fit the fourth Jace, but I'm not dropping anything else at the moment.

[Zalren]

I would drop some cliques out of there. Multiple cliques are kinda sketchy--your list looks a little dubious with only 8 counters in it. Top's are kind of useless as well, maybe go down to 1.

I would drop 2 cliques and 2 tops for some number of Spell Snare's and/or something else. Spell Snare is strong, however.

I dig Masticore, on the other hand. He seems actually like a really strong answer to a lot of blue's issues. Which is funny. People have moved so far away from these old cards that were designed to answer problems, and yet these problems never go away, so it only makes sense to go back to what worked, right? Masticore is naturally out of bolt range, he's got regen, and while his upkeep cost is kinda brutal, ancestral visions is ensuring serious cards in hand. Visions + Jace is a lot of cards.

I put Top in there because it will help with card selection, plus it works miracles with Temporal Mastery (pun intended). I would like to be able to fit a few more counters in there but I figure that Shackles will help with creatures while I can save my counters for big spell threats. Masticore and Morphling have always had a place in my heart and while I have dropped Morphling, I think Masticore is still strong enough to play.

[igri_is_a_bk]

I put Top in there because it will help with card selection, plus it works miracles with Temporal Mastery (pun intended).

Ponder does this better than Top or Preordain t1 to hit Time Walk t2.

[Zalren]

Ponder does this better than Top or Preordain t1 to hit Time Walk t2.

Maybe I am mistaken but I don't think you can cast Temporal Mastery on turn 2 because we have not hit our second land drop. Also Top will let you cast Temporal Mastery during their turn so we get two full draw phases.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Maybe I am mistaken but I don't think you can cast Temporal Mastery on turn 2 because we have not hit our second land drop. Also Top will let you cast Temporal Mastery during their turn so we get two full draw phases.

I think you're right. I was misunderstanding the Miracle mechanic. That is great if you can cast Temporal Mastery on their turn.

[Optimus]

I think you're right. I was misunderstanding the Miracle mechanic. That is great if you can cast Temporal Mastery on their turn.

Hello! I'm new to the forum, but I really want to play this deck.
Just a little question, when you guys speak about 2 complete draw phases you mean one in which we go to draw top no? so does it really change anything? (of course we would have :1::u: more than if we casted it on our turn)

Here is a decklist I would like you guys to comment, I Suppose it's not optimal but say me what you think about it :

[22 Lands]
3 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
16 Island

[8 Creatures]
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Snapcaster Mage

[3 Planes]
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

[27 Spells]
3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Back to Basics
1 Cryptic Command
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
1 Ponder
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Temporal Mastery

[Zalren]

Hello! I'm new to the forum, but I really want to play this deck.
Just a little question, when you guys speak about 2 complete draw phases you mean one in which we go to draw top no? so does it really change anything? (of course we would have :1::u: more than if we casted it on our turn)

Here is a decklist I would like you guys to comment, I Suppose it's not optimal but say me what you think about it :

[22 Lands]
3 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
16 Island

[8 Creatures]
1 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Snapcaster Mage

[3 Planes]
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

[27 Spells]
3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Back to Basics
1 Cryptic Command
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
1 Ponder
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Temporal Mastery

You are right, we would draw Top the first turn. But we would have all mana untapped if we cast Temporal Mastery during the opponent's end step.

I like your list except for Snapcaster Mage. Realistically he has 9 targets ( Brainstorm, Ponder, and Counterspell) because you won't have enough mana to flashback anything else. I am wondering if that is enough to justify running 4 Snapcasters. Tamiyo is definitely going to get tested in my deck, I think she can be great.

[igri_is_a_bk]

I'm testing Chills in the sideboard because Burn is such a horrible matchup. Snapcaster helps a lot to recycle Counterspell and Pierce, but it's not always enough. They're burn spells are in such high number compared our counters. Plus, B2B and Shackles are both worthless, so we have a lot of space to bring in stuff. I'm using three Pierce and three Chill specifically aimed at destroying this pairing. I've found it's important to not side out Vision, even though it's slow. It'll seal the deal if it resolves, especially games two and three with 11 counters.

My board looks like this atm;

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Spell Pierce
2 Curfew
2 Propaganda
3 Chill

It's still shaky, but I'm still running through the gauntlet.

[Optimus]

You are right, we would draw Top the first turn. But we would have all mana untapped if we cast Temporal Mastery during the opponent's end step.

I like your list except for Snapcaster Mage. Realistically he has 9 targets ( Brainstorm, Ponder, and Counterspell) because you won't have enough mana to flashback anything else. I am wondering if that is enough to justify running 4 Snapcasters. Tamiyo is definitely going to get tested in my deck, I think she can be great.

Thanks for your opinion. Well I wanted to play Snapcaster Mage in my list, altough I didn't build around it, I just see it as a really good tool. Now I was wondering if AV is really worth 4 spot (or any spot)?
Don't get me wrong, it's a great card, and as I didn't read the pages before (there is a lot to read, and I don't really have time sorry) I maybe missed something about it, but I prefere something like +3 ponder +1 Spell Pierce/Mana Leak MD (except if with Snapcaster you can cast it for free? oO can someone help me with this?) and -4 AV.

[Zalren]

Thanks for your opinion. Well I wanted to play Snapcaster Mage in my list, altough I didn't build around it, I just see it as a really good tool. Now I was wondering if AV is really worth 4 spot (or any spot)?
Don't get me wrong, it's a great card, and as I didn't read the pages before (there is a lot to read, and I don't really have time sorry) I maybe missed something about it, but I prefere something like +3 ponder +1 Spell Pierce/Mana Leak MD (except if with Snapcaster you can cast it for free? oO can someone help me with this?) and -4 AV.

Ancestral Vision cannot be given flashback because it has no mana cost, thus Snapcaster Mage will not work with it.

[Optimus]

Ancestral Vision cannot be given flashback because it has no mana cost, thus Snapcaster Mage will not work with it.

thanks for this. So I ask my question once again! Is AV that good? wouldn't it be better in a build with Snapcaster to play +3 Ponder + 1 Cheap Counterspell? (or +2/+2)

[igri_is_a_bk]

thanks for this. So I ask my question once again! Is AV that good? wouldn't it be better in a build with Snapcaster to play +3 Ponder + 1 Cheap Counterspell? (or +2/+2)

You don't win the game before turn 12 usually. Rough estimate. Anyways, AV is a live draw for more turns here because of our slow win condition. I like it a lot. Try it and see what you decide.

[The Treefolk Master]

I'm testing the Countertop Field list, it seems quite fun & competitive, albeit extremely hard to play (Field is a tricky card).

http://legitmtg.com/competitive/energy-field-go-a-legacy-scg-iq-report-1st-with-muc/

My 2nd option is the following list:


1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Vendilion Clique

2 Cryptic Command
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Back to Basics
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Spell Pierce

1 Academy Ruins
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
13 Island

SB: 3 Chill
SB: 3 Firespout
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 4 Submerge
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage

I'm not sold on Phyrexian Metamorph, I guess having a MD answer to Thrun is nice. Could also be a Sphinx of Jwar Isle, which also stops thrun, but Metamorh can be recurred, kills other legends, copies shackles, etc. I'm also considering Batterskull: It gains life, is really hard to get rid of, and can race pretty much anything...

I'm also not sure on whether A. Vision is good. Its totally backbreaking whenever it ressolves, drawing 4 a turn is obscene. But its slow and a horrible top deck.

Any thoughts?

[HokusSchmokus]

I recently picked up the deck, Sava's Energy Field list -1/2 slots in the board.

Anybody recently played a similar list? I crave for advice as my last magic attemps were in like 2010(played Dredge ever since) but sadly this thread seems to be dead:(

[The Treefolk Master]

I recently picked up the deck, Sava's Energy Field list -1/2 slots in the board.

Anybody recently played a similar list? I crave for advice as my last magic attemps were in like 2010(played Dredge ever since) but sadly this thread seems to be dead:(

I'm playing that deck too, although I'm using his exact same list.

I've been really impressed with it so far, the few games I've lost with it could have been won had I not missplayed...

I'm considering swaping the Llawan in the SB for a Tamiyo, could be good in midrange matchups...

[HokusSchmokus]

I'm playing that deck too, although I'm using his exact same list.

I've been really impressed with it so far, the few games I've lost with it could have been won had I not missplayed...

I'm considering swaping the Llawan in the SB for a Tamiyo, could be good in midrange matchups...

Don't know, I love Llawan. I even side her in against RUG most of the times. Fun times:D
But yeah, the list in general is fucking insane...I don't even know if I would change it after AVR.

[Sigyn]

Hi!

I'm also testing John Sava's list, I've made no changes to his 75.

I'm also thinking about cutting Llawan from SB since i dindn't expect any merfolks in this heavy GW metagame, but I need more testing to figure what card may I put instead.

What's the deck's worst pairing in your opinion? maybe the correct change is to include another card to help in that certain pairing.

To finish I have some sideboarding questions:

Against:

Reanimator my Sb is: -1 Chimeric Mass -1 Pithing Needle -2 Echoing Truth -2 Back to Basics -2 Vedalken Shackles // +1 Tormod's Crypt +1 Graffdigger's Cage +1 Vendilion Clique +1 Dispel +2 Spell Pierce +2 Meekstone.

Do you think it's the correct way?, I also want to include the second Dispel, but i don't know which card I must side out.

Sneak Attack: -2 Echoing Truth, -2 Vedalken Shackles -3 Spell Snare -2 Back to basics // +2 Spell Pierce +2 Dispel +2 Meekstone +2 Pithing Needle +1 Vendilion Clique.

Back to Basics hits tomb lands, but I don't know if there is a worse card to side out.

Byee!! ^^

[The Treefolk Master]

Mmm, I haven't tested enough to give SBing advice, but I'm don't think siding in Meekstone is correct in the Sneak & Show matchup. They only need to hit you once, so you're only keeping down show and telled dudes (assuming you had an island in play for their Emrakul), until they can put some other monster into the battlefield.

Maybe Back to Basics is better, but I don't know.

SBing vs. Reanimator seems good...

I'll try to test Tamiyo in the board, seems good versus GW and other midrange decks. Sticking her and neutralizing a dude + drawing cards should be quite nice. Tamiyo + Meekstone should stop anything except for EOT Krosan Grip.

I've tested a few games vs. Esper stone blade so far, going 4-2 pre board (both games I lost I died to Jace, and got a bit flooded, wasn't able to find a Needle/Trinket Mage for the life of me...). I should note that I never drew a single Back to Basics. Post board we should destroy them, we gain Pierces, Needles (absurdly good vs. them), Vendilions...

My buddy wanted to play with his POX deck (Reid Duke's version), so I got some incidental testing vs. that deck. I crushed him in 3 games, albeit getting a bit lucky on one of them (top decking a Needle like a champ vs Liliana on 6 counters). Needle stopped Liliana on another game, but I found it by toping for several times, and finally seeing a Trinket Mage.

Will continue to test, the deck seems very promising so far. It offers a strange sense when playing, you might have E. Field on board vs. lots of creatures, and it might seem you're loosing, but you actually have locked your opponent out, it's just a matter of time before you draw Shackles or something.

Has anyone considered Cursed Scroll in the board?

[sarapfish]

Just a question out of curiosity...why is it so important that your list would be classified as MUC when it can be...U/W Control?





I know this list plays swords to plowshares but its just 4 cards! So I am still considering it mono blue. Honestly I think making it completely mono blue is rarely going to be worth it, considering how much you lose out on as far as side-board options go, combined with the fact that not playing swords to plowshares makes you play too many engineered explosives which are extremely sub-par in many situations (albeit good in some). This list is highly reactive and can have a hard time putting on a clock, but it is also very consistent and (1) has enough counters/V-clique's to be pretty good against combo, and (2) enough removal to be decent against many aggro decks. This is a cool combination so I think its worth trying even though I've never personally played this exact list. Any suggestions? Please don't simply say the list doesn't belong since there are 4 swords to plowshares in it!

[Sigyn]

@The Treefolk Master:

Thanks for the answer!, yeah you are probably right about meekstone in Sneak Attack matchup, when I was sbing I thought: so... they play big dudes, meekstone in!!, but against a couple of them or a Sneak Attack is useless.

In which other pairings, besides reanimator, you find meekstone a great add to the 60??, GW to stop Knight of the reliquary?

Tamiyo, in my opinion, has the same disadvantage as Jace, is a planeswalker, so they can attack through an energy field, destroy it, and break the lock. Maybe her ability to tap guys could make this hard to occur, but i'm not sure, jace can also bouce and he doesn't fit in this deck for that particular reason.

Cursed Scroll deserves a try, it's both finisher and removal, but when the opponent is locked we start to stack stuff in hand so the scroll will get worse.

[Kagehisa]

As soon as I get my 4 Back to Basics and others missing pieces, I'll try against random Frenches my list xD

Countermagics:
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

Drawspells:
4 Ancestral Vision (or Brainstorm if one day I buy some blue fetchlands :frown: )

Bombs/stallers/Early Defenses:
4 Back to Basics ( ordered, --> 4 proxies :frown: )
4 Propaganda
4 Pendrell Mists ( --> 3 proxies :frown: , I want to try those as sweeper)
4 Powder Keg

Finishers:
4 Vedalken Shackles ( --> 3 proxies :frown: )
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor ( --> 3 proxies :frown: )

Lands
24 Island

SB

4 Energy Field
4 Chill
4 Hydrosalve (or Blue Elemental Blast if one day I buy them)
3 Disrupt

Well... I just mean to drop Island each turn and to get Propaganda, Pendrell Mists and Back to Basics on board. Each of those cards stalls : play Powder Keg or Propaganda, stall to play a Back to Basics, stall to play Pendrell Mists and use countermagics to protect your enchantment until Ancestral Vision resolves or Vedalken Shackles and Jace, the Mind Sculptor become active.

the sideboard is a very random... :frown:

[HokusSchmokus]

@The Treefolk Master:

Thanks for the answer!, yeah you are probably right about meekstone in Sneak Attack matchup, when I was sbing I thought: so... they play big dudes, meekstone in!!, but against a couple of them or a Sneak Attack is useless.

In which other pairings, besides reanimator, you find meekstone a great add to the 60??, GW to stop Knight of the reliquary?

Tamiyo, in my opinion, has the same disadvantage as Jace, is a planeswalker, so they can attack through an energy field, destroy it, and break the lock. Maybe her ability to tap guys could make this hard to occur, but i'm not sure, jace can also bouce and he doesn't fit in this deck for that particular reason.

Cursed Scroll deserves a try, it's both finisher and removal, but when the opponent is locked we start to stack stuff in hand so the scroll will get worse.

I feel the same about Tamiyo and Scroll.
Meekstone against GW does shut off most of their dudes, true but I don't like the antisynergy between Meekstone and all of your wincons except Chemeric Mass. Don't really know if it's worth it. I don't like Meekstone at all tbh, though I also play 2 in my board and side em in against Reanimator.
BTW I recently cut the Llawan for another Cage, because I felt Reanimator is by far the worst matchup, and Crypt isn't a permanent solution, and so far it worked out great.

Edit: also cut a trinket mage for a sphinx of jwar isle because a lot of times shackles wasn't enough to win games

[HokusSchmokus]

Any Ideas on what else to cut instead of Trinket Mage?

[Sigyn]

Top 9 Athens Blue! :http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=47091

I like the list, devastation tide seems pretty good, echoing truth allows you to bounce your own energy field in response to the triggered ability but the miracle buys you much more time.

The list lacks on counters, only 6 maindeck and batterskull is not searcheable, those are the points where i have more doubts.

What are your thoughts about it?

[Voley]

Anybody successfully playing as Mono-U control?
I love the archetype and am considering getting it.

[Kagehisa]

Hi guys !

I heard there will be a small legacy tournament in a shop in my town. I would like to have your opinion about my deck. Here's the list :

X24 Island
X2 Morphling
X1 Rainbow Efreet
X4 Force of Will
X4 Counterspell
X3 Foil
X4 Fact or Fiction
X4 Ancestral Vision
X4 Powder Keg
X4 Propaganda
X4 Back to Basics
X2 Vedalken Shackles

Yes ! This is Kadaj's list in the opening, I finally have been able to gatherer all the cards a bastard stole me. I would like to know if I have a realistic chance to perform well with this old school list. I read all the MUC thread and I see MUC has changed a lot so I'm wondering... Please help me guys... No idea of what looks my meta... let's say, my question is for a random metagame. (MUC and Stasis are the only decks I own)

I own no fetchlands yet but maybe I'll get them because lists with counterbalance look sexy lol

[Kich867]

Hi guys !

I heard there will be a small legacy tournament in a shop in my town. I would like to have your opinion about my deck. Here's the list :

X24 Island
X2 Morphling
X1 Rainbow Efreet
X4 Force of Will
X4 Counterspell
X3 Foil
X4 Fact or Fiction
X4 Ancestral Vision
X4 Powder Keg
X4 Propaganda
X4 Back to Basics
X2 Vedalken Shackles

Yes ! This is Kadaj's list in the opening, I finally have been able to gatherer all the cards a bastard stole me. I would like to know if I have a realistic chance to perform well with this old school list. I read all the MUC thread and I see MUC has changed a lot so I'm wondering... Please help me guys... No idea of what looks my meta... let's say, my question is for a random metagame. (MUC and Stasis are the only decks I own)

I own no fetchlands yet but maybe I'll get them because lists with counterbalance look sexy lol

I would drop Foil in a heartbeat. You can't afford that kind of card disadvantage. I would replace them with either Spell Snare or Spell Pierce.

[Kagehisa]

Ok, thank you ! I don't own them yet but I'll try to get them soon ! I'm testing the deck and it is true that a hand with Foil and Ancestral Vision hurts me a lot... Turn 0 : FOIL, -3 cards, Turn 1 AV -1, well it hurts... for the first turns.

[sillyandrew]

i've been tinkering with my list, in a frail attempt to keep my pet deck alive and competing, and i feel like i've finally hit a build that's effective enough to really have a presence in the meta. most of my playtesting has been on cockatrice, but i have an insanely positive record these past two weeks in particular. here's what i've been rolling:


2 oblivion stone
2 powder keg
2 pithing needle
2 sensei's divining top

3 vedalken shackles
2 vendilion clique
3 jace, the mind sculptor

2 back to basics
3 energy field

4 brainstorm
4 counterspell
4 force of will
1 spell pierce
3 spell snare

17 island
3 misty rainforest
3 scalding tarn


sideboard:
2 relic of progenitus
1 vedalken shackles
2 sower of temptation
2 back to basics
2 chill
3 propaganda
1 blue elemental blast
2 envelop

game two, i almost always side out powder kegs or o-stones, whichever one isn't ideal, and usually side in some combination of b2b and/or shackles in their place, regardless of the match up. maindeck pithing needles are pretty dope, to say the least, and i think two is the perfect number. envelop is the super secret sideboard tech that breaks some match-ups wide open, and the rest is pretty self explanatory.

[The Treefolk Master]

Mmmm, I like the MD quite a lot, the only thing I'd question would be the lack of any form of card advantage excluding Jace, but there are no other good options currently in the format.

I don't like Propaganda in the SB, it has always been ineffective for me when I want it to stop aggro decks.

I also notice you don't have much graveyard hate, only 2 slots. I'd look into adding 2 Graffdigger's Cage, which is incidentally good against Zenith.dec.

Envelop has been a favorite of mine for some time, although I've never gotten to actually playing with it. I'll give the list a spin some time this week; whatever keeps MUC alive and kickin' (or at least kind of).

I really like the current metagame for MUC. BUG has hystorically been a good match up, Miracles is currently experiencing a down turn, although it should be decent matchup, albeit a LONG grind dependent on tight play. Against Blade Control, resolving Shackles is usually game, so that should be our plan.

What about Ratchet Bomb instead of Keg? The only advantages of Keg that I can see are:

-Counters are put on it even if a Pithing Needle is in play naming it (way too narrow).
-It wrecks affinity (we should already win thanks to Energy Field buying us infinite time).

Should we try to fit some big finisher into the deck? I'm thinking a random Batterskull, which gives us inevitability. Its only 1 slot.

Now, here's an idea I had for the control mirror, although I had originally pictured it in UW Miracles, its far better in this deck. It might be really crappy, but is sideboarding Morphling that bad? It kills Jace, and then goes on to kill them.

THoughts?

[sillyandrew]

I don't like Propaganda in the SB, it has always been ineffective for me when I want it to stop aggro decks.

I also notice you don't have much graveyard hate, only 2 slots. I'd look into adding 2 Graffdigger's Cage, which is incidentally good against Zenith.dec.

if i were to cut cards from the sideboard, propaganda would be the first to go, i agree. there are moments when dropping a prop just wins the game though, ie: against elf swarm, against dredge zombies, against belcher (assuming we don't die turn one). to address the second point, if i were to drop them, they'd be for more graveyard hate, of course.


What about Ratchet Bomb instead of Keg? The only advantages of Keg that I can see are:

-Counters are put on it even if a Pithing Needle is in play naming it (way too narrow).
-It wrecks affinity (we should already win thanks to Energy Field buying us infinite time).

i don't really see an advantage STRONGLY in favor of either of these two cards, and i think it comes down to a matter of preference. enchantments are seldom an issue, and the only liability powder keg has is leaving the occasional plainswalker on the board, but clique can usually clear 'em out in time. it's worth playtesting further, i suppose. i chose keg purely on preference, and my current cardpool.


Now, here's an idea I had for the control mirror, although I had originally pictured it in UW Miracles, its far better in this deck. It might be really crappy, but is sideboarding Morphling that bad? It kills Jace, and then goes on to kill them.

myself and a buddy have discussed this exact point at pretty great length in the past. morphling was a staple of this deck for so long, and while the metagame is severely different, i feel that this idea merits playtesting. (all i've done is theorycraft.) what would the ideal number be? 1? 2? you shouldn't have any problem finding it with numbers that low, especially because you don't want to see it until later on in the game anyway. thinking about it in terms of other relevant flying creatures, two mana (U to fly, U to toughness) stops clique/delver, three mana (U to fly, UU to toughness) walls an angel token, and four mana walls tombstalker (U to fly, UUU to toughness). it's also be pretty funny, though probably futile, to drop a morphling off an opponent's show and tell, haha.

a singleton in the board, i think, would only help. i'd love to hear other's opinions.

[Oiolosse]

Mono U control was my first real and complete deck growing up so Morphling will always have a special place but he was ruined when they took damage off the stack. Late game he was a house that could kill anything and still live. He would need to be a 4/4 for 2UU with those abilites to be relevant now.

[nedleeds]

Rainbow Efreet and SoJI are sadly both better than Morphy these days ... and neither of those are super exciting.

[Oiolosse]

lol at Efreet..what is SoJI?

[from Cairo]

lol at Efreet..what is SoJI?

Sphinx of Jwar Isle

[Kagehisa]

Is it Time to make the TOP 5 Kills, Bombs, mana bases, Card advantage or quality source (ex: trinket toolbox ?), Defense, Counter suit in MUC (associated with their respectives build/meta of MUC) ?

[The Treefolk Master]

Is it Time to make the TOP 5 Kills, Bombs, mana bases, Card advantage or quality source (ex: trinket toolbox ?), Defense, Counter suit in MUC (associated with their respectives build/meta of MUC) ?

I'm sorry, what?

[The Treefolk Master]

So, I was surfing TC Decks a few weeks ago and came across the following list, which came out 4th at the Japan National Championships (GP Yokohama Side Event, 384 players). While it does not strictly qualify as straight MUC, since it is running red, MUC is the established archetype it's the closest to. Without further ado:

7 Island
2 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Academy Ruins
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Trinket Mage
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Blood Moon
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Counterspell
1 Sudden Shock
4 Force of Will
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pithing Needle
2 Vedalken Shackles
//Sideboard

SB: 1 Divert
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Grim Lavamancer

There are only 13 cards listed in the SB, so we have 2 slots to work with (Misdirection maybe? Tormod's Crypt? Firespout/Pyroclasm to deal with swarm strategies?). The MD has some pretty unconventional choices (Cavern of Souls, Sudden shock). I think I'd rather have an extra Island and 1 Fire//Ice (Respectively), but haven't tested at all.

I'd also look into cutting the 2nd Pithing Needle for an extra EE, since dealing with Goyf (and to a lesser extent, KotR) can be a pain for UR.

I've got the deck built on paper, but haven't actually had the chance to test it. I'll try to get a few games under my belt as soon as I can, and will inform you of the deck's performance.

Any thoughts? (Come on people, lets not let this thread die. MUC isn't close to Tier 1, but it was my first deck, back when running 4 Propagand, 4 Back to Basics 4 Fact or Fiction MD was a good call. Ah, good times).

[MGB]

Here's a thought: Back to Basics is awesome against all of the greedy manabases people are playing.

The problem? Abrupt Decay wrecks it and you can't stop it with counters.

The solution? Let's play both Misdirection and Divert main-deck!

Not only are they good at effectively countering a Decay (by redirecting to an opponent's creature) that targets your Shackles/Keg/B2B, but it also protects you from targeted discard which all of the BG decks play (Thoughtseize, Hymn, etc). Of course, against other decks that run counterspells both Divert and Misdirection function as extra ammunition for counter-wars. And as a bonus, if you run into one of those new cascade decks that tries to cascade into Ancestral Vision, there is absolutely no better feeling in this game than when you redirect a resolved Vision (or Ancestral Recall for that matter) to you!

Here's my MUC decklist as of today that has been performing very well in this meta-game. It dies to Merfolk and Goblins pretty hard and pretty regularly, but as long as these two aggro decks are dramatically under-represented, and combo in general is subsequently over-represented, MUC has a chance to be a solid choice.


22 Island

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare (or Spell Pierce depending on meta)
3 Divert
3 Misdirection

4 Powder Keg
4 Back to Basics
4 Vedalken Shackles

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SB: 4 <Graveyard Hate of your Choice>
SB: 3 Dream Tides
SB: 4 Vendilion Clique
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void