[Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

[Kagehisa]

I want to play MUC but I cannot make Jace a wincon. I tried the heavy blue removal suit 4 Pongify, 4 Rapid Hybridization and 2 Snapcaster Mage, supported by 4 Repeal and 4 Dominate (awesome against flipped Delver ! lol) and 2 Vedalken Shackles.

Then I gave up...

By the way, because of Snapcaster Mage, I wanted to go back to Fact or Fiction but I wanted so much to make Jace works in the deck...

I think, in a way, we can use the Pongify, Rapid Hybridization and Snapcaster Mage removal suit but then the 3/3s are annoying... Repeal, Dominate and Shackles are not enough, so I added Devastation Tide but it bounces my Jace... lol

Anybody else tried to make Jace work at 200% in MUC ?

[Kich867]

I want to play MUC but I cannot make Jace a wincon. I tried the heavy blue removal suit 4 Pongify, 4 Rapid Hybridization and 2 Snapcaster Mage, supported by 4 Repeal and 4 Dominate (awesome against flipped Delver ! lol) and 2 Vedalken Shackles.

Then I gave up...

By the way, because of Snapcaster Mage, I wanted to go back to Fact or Fiction but I wanted so much to make Jace works in the deck...

I think, in a way, we can use the Pongify, Rapid Hybridization and Snapcaster Mage removal suit but then the 3/3s are annoying... Repeal, Dominate and Shackles are not enough, so I added Devastation Tide but it bounces my Jace... lol

Anybody else tried to make Jace work at 200% in MUC ?

Jace is pretty much -the- win-con of the deck. Pongify and Rapid Hybridization aren't going to do a lot for you. You aren't looking to kill creatures outside of board-wipes. Which has been discussed. Oblivion Stone is all you really need, supported by Vedalken Shackles and things like Powder Keg.

However the viability of MUC has gone down tremendously in the face of Abrupt Decay as it answers pretty much every permanent in the deck and can't be stopped.

[Kagehisa]

Yes, Decay is the reason I chose to use/test spot removal instead of Propaganda (doesn't protect Jace) and Powder Keg. I know I did things wrong :(

Long time ago, I suggested Collective Restraint (4cmc), the blue Moat for Engineered Explosives manabase, but it still doesn't protect Jace xD

[MGB]

I want to play MUC but I cannot make Jace a wincon. I tried the heavy blue removal suit 4 Pongify, 4 Rapid Hybridization and 2 Snapcaster Mage, supported by 4 Repeal and 4 Dominate (awesome against flipped Delver ! lol) and 2 Vedalken Shackles.

Then I gave up...

By the way, because of Snapcaster Mage, I wanted to go back to Fact or Fiction but I wanted so much to make Jace works in the deck...

I think, in a way, we can use the Pongify, Rapid Hybridization and Snapcaster Mage removal suit but then the 3/3s are annoying... Repeal, Dominate and Shackles are not enough, so I added Devastation Tide but it bounces my Jace... lol

Anybody else tried to make Jace work at 200% in MUC ?

Jace is the only wincon you need maindeck.

I play 4 Jace and nothing else as a my wincon, unless I kill with a creature stolen by Shackles. It's perfectly fine. 80% of the games in which you lay down Jace with suport and your opponent is in near-topdeck mode, they will concede anyway and save time. The rest of those 20% you just keep messing with their topdecks while drawing counters, and then you win with ultimate.

Jace in modern MUC functions as Morphling and Fact or Fiction AND Boomerang all in one 4-of slot. I feel as if it's a mandatory 4-of in MUC, and the best wincon, and probably the best CARD, the deck has right now.

Post-board, against some combo decks and control decks, you want to win a little bit faster, and 4 Vendilion Clique in the sideboard are perfect for that: they give you a 3-power boost to your clock and disrupt your opponent's combo/control. As good as Clique is, you don't want to play them in the maindeck because against alot of decks that are predicated on redundancy of threats (aggro decks, aggro-control decks) Clique is just a 3/1 creature-removal magnet that says "Opponent cycling {0}".But against decks that are predicated on card quality (combo decks and control decks), Clique is golden, and it's even better if they board out their creature removal in g2 after seeing zero creatures in your deck in g1.

Between 4 Jace maindeck (and sometimes 4 Shackles stealing a creature) and 4 Vendilion Clique in the sideboard, that's all you need in this deck. It insulates you from creature removal, giving you virtual card advantage against decks packing it. It also makes your opponent's life total basically irrelevant.

[MGB]

As far as creature control goes, all you need is 4 Vedalken Shackles maindeck, 4 sweepers of some kind (either Keg or Bomb usually), and I like to play Dream Tides in the sideboard, which stops green creatures cold and does something similar to Propaganda against others.

The problem with this is that Goblins and Merfolk own you if you that's all you play, BUT, in this current metagame, these decks are on the decline, which makes MUC perfectly positioned right now to compete.

If you go this route with all of the permanents (Shackles, Keg, B2B, Jace, Dream Tides, etc) that makes Misdirection and Divert so perfect, because your only real threat at this point is permanent removal like Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse and the like, which are dealt with perfectly by these cards.

[The Treefolk Master]

While I do agree that Jace is a mandatory 4-off, and your primary win condition, I'm also a fan of running 2-3 Vendilion Cliques MD. It clears the way for Jace in the control mirror, trades, disrupts + presents a clock vs. combo, and a huge etc.

The problem with running 4 Shackles + 4 Keg/Bomb as your removal suite is that they all die to Abrupt Decay. I'm not suggesting any improvement, I'm just pointing out the inherent weakness of that plan. Clique also helps with this. Misdirection in the SB should however wreck most BGx matchups. Another option is running 6-8 fetchlands, 2 random basics, plus 3 Engineered Explosives. This also allows us to run Brainstorm.

The main problem with this deck is surviving the initial creature onslaught, or dudes + discard (Jund, I'm looking at you).

Back to Basics isn't as good as it used to be due to Abrupt Decay, but B2B + Shackles can overwhelm them (they only have so many decays).

A singleton Dismember MD could be considered.

[MGB]

While I do agree that Jace is a mandatory 4-off, and your primary win condition, I'm also a fan of running 2-3 Vendilion Cliques MD. It clears the way for Jace in the control mirror, trades, disrupts + presents a clock vs. combo, and a huge etc.


Clique is definitely an awesome creature, and you *can* run it MD, but I've always found that if it is one of your few creatures, against most non-combo and non-control decks, it is nothing more than a removal magnet that turns on their creature removal and does nothing to disrupt their hand, because their deck is built entirely on redundancy of threats - i.e. making them cycle a Lightning Bolt just to draw a Chain Lightning, or cycling a Dark Confidant to make them draw a Tarmogoyf.

It all depends on what you think you'll see more of in g1. Aggro or Combo? If you see alot more Combo, I'd consider maindecking the Clique and putting Shackles in the sideboard. If you see more Aggro (as I typically do), I like my Shackles maindeck and then I board them all out vs. combo for 4 Cliques. This strategy is especially effective because it tricks them into boarding out all creature-removal (in the case of opposing control decks) in g2 and g3 usually if they see that you're running zero creatures in g1.




The problem with running 4 Shackles + 4 Keg/Bomb as your removal suite is that they all die to Abrupt Decay. I'm not suggesting any improvement, I'm just pointing out the inherent weakness of that plan. Clique also helps with this. Misdirection in the SB should however wreck most BGx matchups. Another option is running 6-8 fetchlands, 2 random basics, plus 3 Engineered Explosives. This also allows us to run Brainstorm.


This is precisely why I resurrected my MUC deck recently. I thought long and hard about the removal that people were using and decided that maindeck Misdirection and Divert are the perfect solutions. They deal easily with Decay and give you card ADVANTAGE in the process!

Examples:

- Opponent has Deathrite Shaman on board, and you cast Back to Basics on your turn, leaving one Island untapped. At end of turn, he taps down his remaining two Bayous and casts Abrupt Decay targeting Back to Basics. You play Divert, redirect Decay to Shaman, and gain +1 card advantage by effectively 2-for-1ing your opponent (trade Divert for Shaman+Decay).

- Opponent has Tarmogoyf on board, and you cast Vedalken Shackles on turn three, leaving all your lands tapped. During his next turn, he plays Maelstrom Pulse targeting your Shackles. You play Misdirection from your hand, exiling a blue card, and redirecting Maelstrom Pulse to his Tarmogoyf. If he had two Tarmgoyfs on the board, you're really in business, but even with just one Tarmogoyf, you gain +0 card advantage, breaking even despite needing to pitch a blue card to Misdireciton, but more importantly, you keep your Shackles alive and probably go on to win the game.



The main problem with this deck is surviving the initial creature onslaught, or dudes + discard (Jund, I'm looking at you).


This is another great aspect of playing Misdirection and Divert... they also deal with discard!

Examples:

- Opponent casts Thoughtseize on his turn 1 on the draw. You have one Island open and play Divert. Opponent is forced to a.) reveal his hand to you b.) discard a card of his choosing and c.) lose 2 life for the privilege of doing so! By Diverting a Thoughtseize, you actually *gain* +1 card advantage, AND protect the bombs in your hand.

- Opponent casts Hymn to Tourach on his turn 3. You have one Island open. If you play Divert, you redirect his Hymn back to his hand and force him to discard two cards at random, all while protecting your hand. With Divert, you actually gain a whopping +2 card advantage! You're trading Divert for Hymn+Card #1+Card #2! If you play Misdirection on a Hymn, it's not nearly as impressive for you but you still gain +1 card advantage by trading Misdirection+Blue Card for Hymn+Card #1+Card #2.


And don't think that Divert/Misdirection are useless vs. other combo and control decks that don't play discard or Decay/Pulse. These two cards are *gold* in counterwars. Divert is basically Spell Pierce and Misdirection is basically Force of Will in counterwars.



Back to Basics isn't as good as it used to be due to Abrupt Decay, but B2B + Shackles can overwhelm them (they only have so many decays).


As I explained about, I feel that Decay actually makes this deck better if you play Misdireciton and Divert, because opposing players are so confident in playing Decay against a mono-blue deck and don't expect any redirection spells. Then you redirect their Decay to one of their creatures and completely annihilate them with card advantage.

I'm telling you guys... this deck is elite right now with Misdirection / Divert protecting its bombs. As long as Goblins and Merfolk and the rest of the Tribal + Cavern of Souls / AEther Vial decks stay mostly out of the picture, this deck owns: combo with all the countermagic + Clique postboard and even Chalice postboard, owns control by blanking their creature removal suite and playing Back to Basics along with more counterspells than they do, owns the BG decks that play Decay and Discard by redirecting all their stuff back to them, and mostly *deals* with the rest of the aggro decks with Shackles and Keg, and stuff like Dream Tides post-board.

[MGB]

Here's the list I've been playing with recently and doing really well:


22 Island

4 Ancestral Vision

4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
3 Divert
3 Misdirection

4 Powder Keg
4 Vedalken Shackles

4 Back to Basics

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SB: 4 <Grafdigger's Cage/Relic of Progenitus/Leyline of the Void>
SB: 4 Vendilion Clique
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Dream Tides



You've really got to try this build. It's so much fun to play and just complety annihilates certain decks.

[MGB]

Oh yeah - and playing Divert or Misdirection on Ancestral Vision (revealed by cascade guy like Shardless Agent or just suspended and cast by opponent)...

...maybe one of the top 5 best feelings you can have playing Magic.

[The Treefolk Master]

Here's the list I've been playing with recently and doing really well:


22 Island

4 Ancestral Vision

4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
3 Divert
3 Misdirection

4 Powder Keg
4 Vedalken Shackles

4 Back to Basics

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SB: 4 <Grafdigger's Cage/Relic of Progenitus/Leyline of the Void>
SB: 4 Vendilion Clique
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Dream Tides



You've really got to try this build. It's so much fun to play and just complety annihilates certain decks.


I've got no doubt it rapes any deck sporting Abrupt Decay, but I'm concerned about its aggro matchup, Powder Keg seems extremely slow :-(, although aggro decks have been on an all time low recently. Las time I built my Miracles deck to punish Jund/BUG/Junk and faced 4 combo decks...

I am, however, not convinced by relying exclusively on Jace. You'll win 99% of your matchups with Jace, there's no doubt about that, but I guess i want another option available.

Have you tried Spell Snare instead of Spell Pierce, or at least a 2/2 split? Its at the height of its power once again.

When I get back home I'll look into proposing a list that has a more balanced matchup across the metagame. I'll also try to get a few games with your build.

[MGB]

I've got no doubt it rapes any deck sporting Abrupt Decay, but I'm concerned about its aggro matchup, Powder Keg seems extremely slow :-(, although aggro decks have been on an all time low recently. Las time I built my Miracles deck to punish Jund/BUG/Junk and faced 4 combo decks...

I am, however, not convinced by relying exclusively on Jace. You'll win 99% of your matchups with Jace, there's no doubt about that, but I guess i want another option available.

Have you tried Spell Snare instead of Spell Pierce, or at least a 2/2 split? Its at the height of its power once again.

When I get back home I'll look into proposing a list that has a more balanced matchup across the metagame. I'll also try to get a few games with your build.

Just like with most MUC builds post-Misstep banning, it is still very weak to all of the AEther Vial decks, and especially Goblins and Merfolk, because of Lackey (+Cavern) and Lord of Atlantis respectively, and Keg+Shackles just being too slow. If the metagame is infested with Goblins and or Merfolk I wouldn't play MUC.

But right now it seems to be an all-time low of Tribal aggro decks being played. Most of the aggro right now is of the B/G or U/G nature that relies on semi-fatties, and less on burn spells. This is the perfect kind of aggro to face with MUC, because to beat those decks all you need to do is stabilize with Keg+Shackles, because you typically don't have to worry about Burn spells finishing you off even if you've stabilized with Shackles+Keg+Jace. And against most of these decks, Keg is just barely fast enough to do the job 60+% of the time, whereas against Tribal aggro and Burn-based aggro (like Zoo), Keg+Shackles is obviously too slow.

Also, post-board, I don't know if you've tried playing this, but Dream Tides is an absolute HOUSE against green-based aggro decks, and not too shabby (especially paired with Back to Basics) against other types of aggro as well.

[MGB]

Also, I used to think like you do about Jace... that I still "needed" one more win condition. I tried shoehorning in some Morphling, some Meloku, the Clouded Mirror, some Call the Skybreaker, some Sphinx of Jwar Isle... but in the end, I was just wasting my time and wasting valuable card slots that MUC needs to devote to more answers and/or draw spells. After playing hundreds of games with this deck over the course of the past 3+ years, I've just accepted that anything in addition to Jace is basically superfluous. Why beat with a Creature, and try to protect that creature, when I can just play a 4 mana "Suspend 5: You win the game" spell that also functions as a draw engine, an every-turn fateseal, and a repeatable boomerang? The only problem you might run into is someone Extirpating or Surgical Extractioning your Jace and leaving you with nothing, but Vendilion Clique in the sideboard comes in as an alternate win condition vs. those kinds of decks anyway.

Give into the power of Jace. There is nothing else needed in Modern MUC but 4 Jace, and some Vendilion Clique, but not necessarily in the maindeck.

[Iron Buddha]

Jace isn't even so good without a shuffle effect (Jace without a shuffle effect often ends up being weaker than a FoF). I mean you have 100% zero shuffle effects.

[MGB]

Jace isn't even so good without a shuffle effect (Jace without a shuffle effect often ends up being weaker than a FoF). I mean you have 100% zero shuffle effects.

This is false. Can Fact or Fiction literally act as your win condition? If you play Fact or Fiction, you still need to play other win conditions in your deck. Jace is his own win condition so you can devote more slots to answers to opponent's threats. Also, can Fact or Fiction help you deal with creatures like Show n Telled Emrakul?

Jace is the most broken blue card in the the Legacy format. Even without shuffle effects, it's a:

My Win Condition 2UU
Shroud (Effectively: this cannot be the target of creature, artifact, or enchantment removal)
-1: Boomerang target creature
0: Draw a card
+2: Fateseal target opponent and destroy his topdeck.
Suspend 5: You win the game.

All you have to do with this deck is a.) stop enough of opponent's threats with your counterspells and redirection stuff b.) protect you and jace from creatures by using Keg and Shackles and counters and then c.) play Jace and thru combination of drawing cards with +0 ability (creating card advantage) and fatesealing opponent's topdeck with +2 ability, you win the game in 99.9% of situations once you play Jace.

Also, if you really think you need shuffle effects, it's trivial to put them in anyway. Just replace 8 Islands with 4 Misty Rainforest and 4 Scalding Tarn. Bingo. Shuffle effects if you really need them. I personally would rather have the 3-4 life that you lose with fetchlands during the course of a game (need every last drop vs aggro and burn) rather than the slight increase in card quality you get by using them in combination with Jace.

[Arsenal]

As someone who plays with blue decks as well as BGx decks, if you're relying on Misdirection/Divert to get you there versus BGx decks, you're going to be very, very sorry. I can't tell you the number of times Misdirection/Divert was just a dead card that I couldn't cast as my opponent was casting non-targetable spells. And Misdirection is a usually going to be just a two-for-two if you do get it to work, which pulls you even, but doesn't nothing to get you ahead. MUC was tough to play with before Abrupt Decay starting running rampant, and now? It seems like MUC is just a relic of yesteryear, much like Suicide Black and White Weenie.

[nedleeds]

22 actual Islands and no brainstorm to shuffle the flood back. Over a tourney not at your kitchen table I have 2 words to say to you.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRlOop_4CZMcX0te0iNy51VB-looj9h8RaHoRZVY931qZRM7Edx

[MGB]

As someone who plays with blue decks as well as BGx decks, if you're relying on Misdirection/Divert to get you there versus BGx decks, you're going to be very, very sorry. I can't tell you the number of times Misdirection/Divert was just a dead card that I couldn't cast as my opponent was casting non-targetable spells. And Misdirection is a usually going to be just a two-for-two if you do get it to work, which pulls you even, but doesn't nothing to get you ahead. MUC was tough to play with before Abrupt Decay starting running rampant, and now? It seems like MUC is just a relic of yesteryear, much like Suicide Black and White Weenie.

Ttypical BG lists from a recent tourney:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10473&iddeck=76379

Let's see, I count, as targeted (redirectable) spells: 4 Thoughtseize, 3 Hymn to Tourach, 3 Abrupt Decay, 3 Punishing Fire, 2 Lightning Bolt, 1 Maelstrom Pulse. 16 spells that Misdirection and/or Divert can redirect.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10404&iddeck=75892

4 Swords to Plowshares, 3 Abrupt Decay, 1 Path to Exile, 4 Thoughtseize, 1 Maelstrom Pulse

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10443&iddeck=76181

2 Spell Pierce, 3 Abrupt Decay, 3 Daze, 4 Force of Will, 1 Maelstrom Pulse, 4 Hymn to Tourach

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10443&iddeck=76185

1 Dismember, 4 Abrupt Decay, 4 Daze, 4 Force of Will, 1 Thoughtseize, 3 Hymn to Tourach

I've been playing the MUC vs. BG matchup for many weeks now and I can tell you from real playtesting results that Misdirection and Divert make the matchup at least 65% in MUC's favor.

Even if you are merely breaking even on card advantage (when often you are actually gaining card advantage - i.e. Misdirected Hymn, or Divert on anything targeted), the key thing is that these spells are protecting your bombs - Back to Basics, Vedalken Shackles, and Jace. Resolved Shackles kills creature decks. Resolved B2B kills decks that rely on nonbasics. Resolved Jace wins games period. The only issue is protecting them, and because counterspells can't stop Decay, Misdireciton and Divert do.

I don't think you've actually tested my most recent list against the newest decks, but before being so negative about it maybe you should learn something about the matchup instead of just relying on years-old playtesting with vastly inferior lists.

The only decks that have a positive matchup vs. MUC right now are Goblins, Merfolk, and Zoo, and conveniently none are played heavily right now.

[MGB]

22 actual Islands and no brainstorm to shuffle the flood back. Over a tourney not at your kitchen table I have 2 words to say to you.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRlOop_4CZMcX0te0iNy51VB-looj9h8RaHoRZVY931qZRM7Edx

22 Islands is not that much land. It's just enough to ensure that you can cast Jace pretty reliably.

Again, control decks like having land. Vedalken Shackles is mana-hungry. If anything, 22 is not often enough.

[Arsenal]

Ttypical BG lists from a recent tourney:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10473&iddeck=76379

Let's see, I count, as targeted (redirectable) spells: 4 Thoughtseize, 3 Hymn to Tourach, 3 Abrupt Decay, 3 Punishing Fire, 2 Lightning Bolt, 1 Maelstrom Pulse. 16 spells that Misdirection and/or Divert can redirect.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10404&iddeck=75892

4 Swords to Plowshares, 3 Abrupt Decay, 1 Path to Exile, 4 Thoughtseize, 1 Maelstrom Pulse

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10443&iddeck=76181

2 Spell Pierce, 3 Abrupt Decay, 3 Daze, 4 Force of Will, 1 Maelstrom Pulse, 4 Hymn to Tourach

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10443&iddeck=76185

1 Dismember, 4 Abrupt Decay, 4 Daze, 4 Force of Will, 1 Thoughtseize, 3 Hymn to Tourach

I've been playing the MUC vs. BG matchup for many weeks now and I can tell you from real playtesting results that Misdirection and Divert make the matchup at least 65% in MUC's favor.

Even if you are merely breaking even on card advantage (when often you are actually gaining card advantage - i.e. Misdirected Hymn, or Divert on anything targeted), the key thing is that these spells are protecting your bombs - Back to Basics, Vedalken Shackles, and Jace. Resolved Shackles kills creature decks. Resolved B2B kills decks that rely on nonbasics. Resolved Jace wins games period. The only issue is protecting them, and because counterspells can't stop Decay, Misdireciton and Divert do.

I don't think you've actually tested my most recent list against the newest decks, but before being so negative about it maybe you should learn something about the matchup instead of just relying on years-old playtesting with vastly inferior lists.

The only decks that have a positive matchup vs. MUC right now are Goblins, Merfolk, and Zoo, and conveniently none are played heavily right now.

Lol. 65% in favor of MUC versus BGx decks? The only unfavorable matchups for MUC is tribal and Zoo? MUC should be placing at least 6 decks in every top 8 then. You're way ahead of the curve, you should try to keep MUC's 65% positive matchup a secret for as long as possible.

[MGB]

Lol. 65% in favor of MUC versus BGx decks? The only unfavorable matchups for MUC is tribal and Zoo? MUC should be placing at least 6 decks in every top 8 then. You're way ahead of the curve, you should try to keep MUC's 65% positive matchup a secret for as long as possible.

I'm not a huge tournament player and most people in this format are incredibly closed-minded about what is competitive and what isn't, and probably don't have the time to test out everything there is.

Fact of the matter is that MUC, based on my individual playtesting and "on paper" based on matchup analysis... has few weaknesses in this particular metagame. The big drawback to playing MUC has always been fast aggro, and especially AEther Vial aggro. In a format without much fast aggro and few players playing Merfolk or Goblins, and most players playing combo of some sort, MUC is poised to be a top contender. This has been common knowledge since the beginning of the game.

Vs. Combo (High Tide, Belcher, Perfect Storm, Ad Naus, Balustrade Spy, Dredge, Reanimator, OmniTell, Sneak'n'Show) - MUC has positive matchups across the board due to more countermagic than other combo, Force of Will, Misdirection, Spell Pierce, etc plus 4 Vendilion Clique and 4 Chalice of the Void post-board, also 4 grave hate for Dredge and Balustrade Spy combo. Jace can bounce Show n Telled Emrakul and the like as well. I don't need to tell you that 4 Chalice and 4 Vendilion Clique on top of 4 Force, 4 Counterspell, 3 Misdirection are brutal for combo to face post-board. And Balustrade Spy Combo and Reanimator have to face both 4 Chalice, maindeck counterspells, AND 4 Grave hate like Leyline of the Void.

Vs. BG based decks - Good matchups especially with the combo of Misdirection and Divert making Maelstrom Pulse and Abrupt Decay deadly for them to play. Shackles and Back to Basics clean up in here.

Vs. UW Miracles or UW Stoneblade - Their creature removal is blank against MUC, and MUC plays more countermagic. Back to Basics also limits their resources. These matchups come down to who sticks Jace, and MUC usually has a slight edge due to more countermagic and Back to Basics.

Vs. RUG Delver - This matchup is more even because they can be quite fast, but Misdirection and Divert function as extra Force of Will and Spell Pierce here, and you can also turn Bolts back on Delvers. Keg and Shackles are the way to win here, but it's 50/50 for the most part. Post-board, Dream Tides adds yet another threat on top of Shackles/Keg/B2B that they need to remove.

Vs. Goblins and Merfolk - The two truly bad match-ups for obvious reasons - Fast Lackey, AEther Vial, Cavern of Souls, Lord of Atlantis, etc.

Vs. random decks like Lands or MUD or Affinity or 12post, MUC has some insanely good matchups. It's next to impossible for a Lands player to beat MUC. MUD and Affinity take it hard from Keg and Back to Basics. 12post dies hard to Back to Basics and they don't have too many outs, and Jace takes care of their big guys if they hit play via Show n Tell.




Throw in the fact that Jace as a 4-of is maybe the best blue finisher+draw engine ever printed, and you have modern MUC's top-shelf potential in a non-tribal metagame.

[Arsenal]

a non-tribal metagame.

This is what Legacy's meta has been for the last couple months, yet I don't see a single MUC deck showing up ANYWHERE in that time. And I disagree strongly with your RiP Miracles analysis; as a RiP Miracles player, you have no way to stop CounterTop once it's online, your creature removal (Shackles, Keg) is mostly blank as well, and I'm bringing in REB from the board to wreck you.

EDIT: Not to mention you have no out versus Rip/Helm insta-win other than hoping to counter it.

[MGB]

This is what Legacy's meta has been for the last couple months, yet I don't see a single MUC deck showing up ANYWHERE in that time. And I disagree strongly with your RiP Miracles analysis; as a RiP Miracles player, you have no way to stop CounterTop once it's online, your creature removal (Shackles, Keg) is mostly blank as well, and I'm bringing in REB from the board to wreck you.

EDIT: Not to mention you have no out versus Rip/Helm insta-win other than hoping to counter it.

Spell Pierce, Force of Will, Counterspell are enough to stop CounterTop, especially when Misdirection and Divert are additional Force of Wills and Spell Pierces in counterwars. And even if Countertop lands, I can still play Jace through it and once a deck plays Jace in this matchup, that deck basically wins 95% of the time.

Back to Basics slows down any greedy manabase like the kind used by Miracles.

And postboard, I have the option of bringing in Chalice of the Void to stop REB and like half of the other stuff in the Miracles deck (if I board out either Pierce or Divert) and I definitely board in 4 Vendilion Clique in place of Shackles, and put additional pressure on the control player that way.

It definitely is not a "slam dunk" matchup for MUC like say, the Combo matchup is, or the Lands.dec matchup is, but I'd say for 2/3 sb it's a solid 60% or so in MUC's favor.

And why does MUC never show up anywhere? The same reason you are arguing with me right now. There are so many preconcieved notions about MUC. For some reason, Legacy players are so faithful to their dual lands that there is basically zero acceptance of any deck that can be competitive without them. It just doesn't seem right to most Legacy players who have been fetching Dual lands for their entire lives. Add to that the fact that the Goblins and Merfolk matchups are legitimately horror shows for MUC, and most people who tried playing MUC when Goblins and Merfolk were dominant (for most of Legacy's existence) have bad memories of those matchups and immediately discount MUC.

Also, most Magic players do not have the time or the desire to test new deck archetypes constantly. When it comes tournament time, they usually stick with what they are most comfortable playing. It takes time to become comfortable with the avenues of play necessary to be successful with MUC. A novice would end up trying to counter things they shouldn't counter, and/or wouldn't know when to play certain bombs like B2B and Shackles. Just like any other deck, you need to become familiar with its strengths and weaknesses. How many people would be willing to put in the time to do this with a completely different deck? I think most would rather just play their Delver deck, which is powerful and consistent, or play their combo deck, which gives faster kills.

[Arsenal]

Resolve your Jace through my CounterTop? And how exactly do you plan on doing that when I keep a 4cc spell in my top 3 cards until I don't need to anymore? Or when my CounterTop blanks a fair amount of your countermagic, allowing me to win the counterwar at the expense of almost no cards used?

Greedy manabase for RiP Miracles? I play 7 basics, which is more than enough to cast everything in my deck + have mana for countermagic backup/spin Top. Hell, I play Blood Moon in my own maindeck, so your Back to Basics are basically 4 more dead cards versus me.

You're delusional if you think MUC has a 60% matchup versus everything except tribal and Zoo. I'll be at SCG Open Milwaukee; please, please, please come to it so I can curbstomp you with my Junk and RiP Miracles builds.

[MGB]

Resolve your Jace through my CounterTop? And how exactly do you plan on doing that when I keep a 4cc spell in my top 3 cards until I don't need to anymore? Or when my CounterTop blanks a fair amount of your countermagic, allowing me to win the counterwar at the expense of almost no cards used?


It doesn't work that way all the time and you know it. Countertop is excellent at stopping 1cc and 2cc but after that, it is highly variable. I've slipped 3cc and 4cc past CounterTop so many times I've lost count.



Greedy manabase for RiP Miracles? I play 7 basics, which is more than enough to cast everything in my deck + have mana for countermagic backup/spin Top.


That's great, but at the very least Back to Basics will at least be a double Sinkhole because you definitely aren't fetching all basics in G1, and in G2 past the mid-game point you will be playing some nonbasics.



You're delusional if you think MUC has a 60% matchup versus everything except tribal and Zoo. I'll be at SCG Open Milwaukee; please, please, please come to it so I can curbstomp you with my Junk and RiP Miracles builds.

You really have no idea what you're talking about re: this newer MUC decklist because you haven't played this deck, and then you come into this thread just to troll someone who is trying to create open discussion about a fringe archetype? Seriously, what is wrong with you?

If you aren't contributing to a deck discussion, why are you coming in just to troll about a deck that you clearly don't play and do not care about?

[Arsenal]

So... you said you can push through your Jace against my CounterTop, and you said that CounterTop is effective at stopping 1cc and 2cc spells (which a fair portion of your countersuite is), yet I'm letting you resolve Jace, why? CounterTop = I'm winning the counterwar. And that doesn't even involve ETutor tricks when I have CounterTop online. Seriously, you aren't resolving Jace when I have CounterTop online. Ever.

Also, a competent RiP Miracles players will NEVER fetch non-basics in the first few turns against an unknown opponent. I'm not sure what Miracles player you've been playtesting against, but I'm fairly certain he's terrible.

And regarding "I don't know what I'm talking about" Kadaj and I were the main proponents of MUC back in 2006-09, talking about Sphinx of Jwar Isle vs. Morphling vs. Call the Skybreaker, etc. I suggest you start from Page 1 of this thread and read all the way through. Sounds like you're the one in need of a history lesson.

And MUC is a fringe archetype because it LOSES to many decks, not because players are too stubborn not to play with it. If it truly had positive matchups versus everything except Tribal and Zoo, MUC would be the most played deck in Legacy. Why? BECAUSE PLAYERS WILL PLAY WHATEVER IN ORDER TO WIN. It might be RUG Delver one week, RiP Miracles the next, Sneak and Show after that, etc. Honestly, you are starting to piss me off.

[MGB]

So... you said you can push through your Jace against my CounterTop, and you said that CounterTop is effective at stopping 1cc and 2cc spells (which a fair portion of your countersuite is), yet I'm letting you resolve Jace, why? CounterTop = I'm winning the counterwar. And that doesn't even involve ETutor tricks when I have CounterTop online. Seriously, you aren't resolving Jace when I have CounterTop online. Ever.


1) MUC is stopping CounterTop from resolving probably 80+% of the time. 4 Spell Pierce, 4 Counterspell, 4 Force of Will, 3 Misdirection, 3 Divert maindeck for MUC vs. 4 Force of Will, 1-2 Counterspell, and 2-4 Spell Pierce for RIP/Miracles? Who's winning that counterwar, I wonder?
2) If RIP/Miracles manages to stick Counterbalance AND Top in those rare situations when MUC doesn't stop Counterbalance... you can only stop my Jace from resolving if you put one of the following cards on top of your library: Supreme Verdict, Jace, Venser, or Elspeth. Most of these lists play 1 Venser and 1-2 Elspeth at most, 1-2 Supreme Verdict at most, and 3 Jace. That's it. And none of them are fetchable with E-Tutor. And one of them probably has already been played (and countered) at that point in the game.



Also, a competent RiP Miracles players will NEVER fetch non-basics in the first few turns against an unknown opponent. I'm not sure what Miracles player you've been playtesting against, but I'm fairly certain he's terrible.


You can't play into the mid-game and beyond with Miracles and not play some nonbasics unless you are purposely holding lands back and slowing yourself down in the process. Statistically speaking, you are not going to draw only fetchlands the entire game. You have to rely on some nonbasics, and then if I have Back to Basics in play, those are one-shot mana sources for you.



And regarding "I don't know what I'm talking about" Kadaj and I were the main proponents of MUC back in 2006-09, talking about Sphinx of Jwar Isle vs. Morphling vs. Call the Skybreaker, etc. I suggest you start from Page 1 of this thread and read all the way through. Sounds like you're the one in need of a history lesson.


Wow, that's wondeful that you've been posting in this thread a long time ago when the deck was different and the metagame was completely different. Have you tested with MUC in the current metagame at all? No, because you've been too busy playing your Miracles deck or your BG Junk deck. Your arguments carry significantly less weight than people who are actually trying to make the archetype work right now and are constantly playtesting it vs. the tier decks in the format, both offline and online.



And MUC is a fringe archetype because it LOSES to many decks, not because players are too stubborn not to play with it. If it truly had positive matchups versus everything except Tribal and Zoo, MUC would be the most played deck in Legacy. Why? BECAUSE PLAYERS WILL PLAY WHATEVER IN ORDER TO WIN. It might be RUG Delver one week, RiP Miracles the next, Sneak and Show after that, etc. Honestly, you are starting to piss me off.

Lands.dec destroys all aggro and is an extremely solid choice in an aggro-heavy metagame but will never be played in mass numbers due to the style of play required (slow and grinding) and the esoteric nature of some of the cards. Aluren is one of the great combo decks but people don't have experience with it and don't want to buy Imperial Recruiter. These are just two examples of good decks that will never see lots of placings because of extraneous factors.

And it's not like MUC hasn't placed at all. Some other lists have placed in the top8 in SCG tournaments not too long ago. These were more of the Energy Field builds, but they were MUC variants nonetheless.

Again, I don't understand why you are being so rude and aggressive in here. You clearly have no interest in playing MUC anymore, so why are you here trolling?

[Arsenal]

RiP Miracles plays Helm, which can be fetched with ETutor. Also, your maindeck has exactly 4 spells at 4cc (your Jaces) whereas RiP Miracles has more than 4 spells at 4cc. Again, if I resolve CounterTop, you're not going to win counterwars and won't stick Jace.

Also, the reason why I'm still in here is because of your ridiculous claim of 60-65% positive matchup versus everything except tribal and Zoo.

Flames removed. -zilla

[MGB]

RiP Miracles plays Helm, which can be fetched with ETutor. Also, your maindeck has exactly 4 spells at 4cc (your Jaces) whereas RiP Miracles has more than 4 spells at 4cc. Again, if I resolve CounterTop, you're not going to win counterwars and won't stick Jace.

Also, the reason why I'm still in here is because of your rediculous claim of 60-65% positive matchup versus everything except tribal and Zoo. This statement is just so horrendously dumb that you deserve to be called out on it.

Again, Counterbalance is only going to resolve at most, at a 20% rate against MUC. MUC has a far superior suite of counterspells. To back up Counterbalance, all the UW control has to offer is basically 4 Force of Will and a mixture of Spell Pierce, Spell Snare and Counterspell that is far smaller in number than what MUC is running.

Again, in the small number of situations that the UW deck DOES stick Counterbalance, then it still needs to find one of the few 4cc spells in its deck or Jace is going to resolve. It's possible, but it's not remotely guaranteed like it is when you tell me that Counterbalance will stop the 1cc and 2cc spells. I'd peg it at about 40-50% hit rate, based on experience.

And again, if you are in here to troll people who you disagree with because of some preconceived notions about a deck that you haven't touched in years in a metagame that has changed dramatically... then why? You are being nothing but a useless troll that is not contributing anything of value.

[MGB]

And your statement "MUC has a 60-65% matchup versus everything except tribal and Zoo" is contributing value? Jesus Christ you are dumb. I'm through.

I actually backed up my points with card-for-card matchup analysis and would be happy to go even further in depth, whereas all you are doing is making baseless claims about matchups that you have probably never tested in the past 1-2 years, and then resorting to endless stream of ad hominem attacks. Win?

I mean, if you really want to have a discussion that's worth anything, maybe you can go matchup-by-matchup for me and tell me which archetypes would pose problems for MUC in this current metagame besides Tribal aggro? Just like I broke down the combo matchups by noting all of the counterspells, and the post-board answers MUC brings in, and the lack of answers to those answers from the opposing combo decks... And then tell me, based on the cards in the list I posted, why those matchups would have an edge?

Of course, you won't do that because you have no experience with these matchups, nor do you have the initiative to do so. So you'd rather just troll.

[ThediscoPower]

Well, have you played any of the matchups you make claims on? Because the way I see it, the way you sell your deck seems way too theorical to me, and not practical enough. Most of the time, when you make card to card claims like that, you end up in a situation where it the idea sounds good, but practicaly fails to be as good as advertised. As such, I also fail to see how this deck can have a 65% matchup against almost everything you can see in legacy. I feel like you are overestimating your counters by a lot (7 of them being actual 2 for 1s against yourself, 4 of them actually costing 2 mana to play, 4 of them being one of the most situational card ever (not to mention misdirection). You are also only drawing cards using visions (4 turns after you play it) and with jace, with no way to filter your hand, as such (no brainstorm-fetch, cards that really should be there, IMO). With all this, I can easily imagine you being completely out of cards after an early counter war (over, say, a counterbalance, or something like a turn 2 counterbalance, turn 3 counterbalance with force pierce backup), just to draw more counterspells and not enough juice to actually kill your opponnent. This is especially true when the way you sell it, you seem happy of 2 for 1 ing yourself, but in truth, this isn't something a control deck should be happy to do against other control decks.

I also would like to tell you that if the miracle player goes to find his duals on the first turns of the game, he DEFINATELY is doing it wrong. Like, really, really wrong. The deck is made so it can shut down wasteland, as such I fail to see how you can be so sure that back to basics will be a card with actual text on it, in that matchup. Another point I want to add is that Lands isn't doing well rght now because people are packing their grave hate in good mass. (not to mention that recent scgs have seen u/w/r RIP miracles do very well, that I believe just won't lose to lands). Also, you might be overestimating your 12 post matchup by an actual mile...

Those are my 2 cents on the topic.

[MGB]

Well, have you played any of the matchups you make claims on? Because the way I see it, the way you sell your deck seems way too theorical to me, and not practical enough. Most of the time, when you make card to card claims like that, you end up in a situation where it the idea sounds good, but practicaly fails to be as good as advertised. As such, I also fail to see how this deck can have a 65% matchup against almost everything you can see in legacy. I feel like you are overestimating your counters by a lot (7 of them being actual 2 for 1s against yourself, 4 of them actually costing 2 mana to play, 4 of them being one of the most situational card ever (not to mention misdirection). You are also only drawing cards using visions (4 turns after you play it) and with jace, with no way to filter your hand, as such (no brainstorm-fetch, cards that really should be there, IMO). With all this, I can easily imagine you being completely out of cards after an early counter war (over, say, a counterbalance, or something like a turn 2 counterbalance, turn 3 counterbalance with force pierce backup), just to draw more counterspells and not enough juice to actually kill your opponnent. This is especially true when the way you sell it, you seem happy of 2 for 1 ing yourself, but in truth, this isn't something a control deck should be happy to do against other control decks.


You never 2 for 1 yourself using Misdirection or Divert on targeted removal. You at least break even, and in situations with Hymn to Tourach, you always gain card advantage.

Using Misdirection in counterwars is no different from Force of Will. 2-for-1ing to fight over and win a battle to land Jace, or Back to Basics, for example, is well worth it when that bomb does irreparable damage to your opponent's long term chances to win. I don't care if I emptied most of my hand if I just landed Back to Basics on a guy who just tapped all of his nonbasic lands. Similarly, I don't care if I emptied most of my hand when I land Jace, because Jace wins 95% of the time he lands.



I also would like to tell you that if the miracle player goes to find his duals on the first turns of the game, he DEFINATELY is doing it wrong. Like, really, really wrong. The deck is made so it can shut down wasteland, as such I fail to see how you can be so sure that back to basics will be a card with actual text on it, in that matchup. Another point I want to add is that Lands isn't doing well rght now because people are packing their grave hate in good mass. (not to mention that recent scgs have seen u/w/r RIP miracles do very well, that I believe just won't lose to lands). Also, you might be overestimating your 12 post matchup by an actual mile...


It's virtually impossible to play entirely with basics if you are the Miracles pilot. Yes, often he will fetch basics, especially early in the game, but the deck also plays duals, and he has to use them going into the mid-game. And if Back to Basics is on the board, all nonbasic lands for him turn into Lotus Petals. That is a powerful effect against a control deck that is hungry for mana. It may not be as game-breaking as playing Back to Basics against a tapped out RUG Delver player who has very little other options, but it is still a strong play that can mean the difference between winning and losing between two Control decks.

Have you seen the 12post manabase? The deck relies entirely on one of two things to win: A.) ramping up its nonbasic lands to eventually play an uncounterable fatty like Emrakul or B.) cheating said fatty into play with a spell that is easily countered by 12 spells in the MUC deck

Basically speaking, Back to Basics wrecks the 12post manabase, and the MUC pilot doesn't really have to worry about fighting counterwars and can counter the relevant business spells, which are few and far between because most of the deck is predicated upon ramping its mana.

[MGB]

And yes, I've been testing this deck off and on for more than 3 years now. I gave this up for a brief period when Vengevival made a mockery of every other control deck, and then again when Goblins + Cavern was all the rage, but other than that I've been faithfully testing variations of this deck all of those 3 years.

However, now that Goblins and Merfolk are all but out of the picture, and the degenerate Survival of the Fittest decks are history, this deck is incredibly well-positioned. All of the aggro is mostly slower mid-range stuff right now, and everyone's playing combo.

I've personally tested, offline and online, every single matchup in the Legacy metagame, from RUG Delver to High Tide to Stoneblade to Enchantress to MUD to you-name-it.

[DragoFireheart]

I've personally tested, offline and online, every single matchup in the Legacy metagame, from RUG Delver to High Tide to Stoneblade to Enchantress to MUD to you-name-it.

Then you would be happy to show me those Top 8s that MUC has been making.

[nedleeds]

22 Islands is not that much land. It's just enough to ensure that you can cast Jace pretty reliably.

Again, control decks like having land. Vedalken Shackles is mana-hungry. If anything, 22 is not often enough.

22 islands. With no thinning, filtering, and shuffling in the color that provides the best thinning, filtering and card quality effects. You clearly don't understand statistics. Over a 6-9 round tourney a deck with 22 islands will never win, you'll top deck miserably, be land flooded and get your sack crushed when you open on stuff like

Island
Island
Island
Island
Shackles
Jace
Shackles

You know what immediately makes that hand marginally keepable, the best card in Legacy, Brainstorm and a fetch land

Island
Flooded Strand
Island
Island
Jace
Shackles
Brainstorm

[Koby]

You know the idea is good when nedleeds is suggesting that you run Islands and Brainstorm. :eek:

[ThediscoPower]

You never 2 for 1 yourself using Misdirection or Divert on targeted removal. You at least break even, and in situations with Hymn to Tourach, you always gain card advantage.

Using Misdirection in counterwars is no different from Force of Will. 2-for-1ing to fight over and win a battle to land Jace, or Back to Basics, for example, is well worth it when that bomb does irreparable damage to your opponent's long term chances to win. I don't care if I emptied most of my hand if I just landed Back to Basics on a guy who just tapped all of his nonbasic lands. Similarly, I don't care if I emptied most of my hand when I land Jace, because Jace wins 95% of the time he lands.


Do you understand that fair decks side out force of will against other fair decks? Do you understand why they would do that? Using misdirection in counterwars in the same as force of will, but being reduced to use force of will (note the choice of word here. Implying that you are in a situation where you HAVE to use it, removing a blue card in your hand) in a counter war is already something NOT THAT GOOD. It is something you do WHEN YOU ARE FORCED TO DO IT (pun intended). If you think that playing a control deck is all about emptying your hand in order to play ONE bomb, then you are horribly wrong, I believe. Please give me situations where misdirection would break even, against your average deck. The way I see it, you probably are just going to be empty, with nothing on the board, nothing in your hands. This is why you use misdi usually, in a combo shell. You play it in your favorite sneak show deck, in order to have one of your big guys come in play ASAP, and kill your opponent ON THE SPOT. Empty handed? who care? I win. Now.



It's virtually impossible to play entirely with basics if you are the Miracles pilot. Yes, often he will fetch basics, especially early in the game, but the deck also plays duals, and he has to use them going into the mid-game. And if Back to Basics is on the board, all nonbasic lands for him turn into Lotus Petals. That is a powerful effect against a control deck that is hungry for mana. It may not be as game-breaking as playing Back to Basics against a tapped out RUG Delver player who has very little other options, but it is still a strong play that can mean the difference between winning and losing between two Control decks.


That's not true. How mana hungry do you think he really is? Do you believe he needs to entreats you for 10 in order to kill you? Because the way I see it, with what? 8 basics? he can literally play anything in his deck, AND defend it, if need be. But, I mean, what do I know. It's not like I was actually playing back to basics in my own miracle build at some point because I wanted to keep it u/w, or that I even played miracles at some point in my life. Nope. Difinitely not the case AT ALL.

Finally, if you think you can simply rely on back to basics to get you out of trouble against 12 post (which, to be honnest, was what I thought you would tell me), then you are horibly wrong. Especially when a deck like yours can't even kill him quickly. Have you played that matchup? Again. You give me this "but it works on paper!!!" bulshit, when in practice, you probably will be very disapointed...

[MGB]

22 islands. With no thinning, filtering, and shuffling in the color that provides the best thinning, filtering and card quality effects. You clearly don't understand statistics. Over a 6-9 round tourney a deck with 22 islands will never win, you'll top deck miserably, be land flooded and get your sack crushed when you open on stuff like

Island
Island
Island
Island
Shackles
Jace
Shackles

You know what immediately makes that hand marginally keepable, the best card in Legacy, Brainstorm and a fetch land

Island
Flooded Strand
Island
Island
Jace
Shackles
Brainstorm

It's not as bad as you make it out to be.

Really. 22 Lands is just enough to ensure that you hit 4 Islands by Turn4-5 consistently, which is what you want. In this deck, there really isn't such a thing as "mana flood" because if you haven't figured out yet, but Control decks are mana-hungry by nature.

And as far as mana denial - the advantage to playing all basics and no fetchlands means you are basically *completely* immune to all forms of land destruction/mana denial popularly played aside from the fringe Sinkhole. Again, as a control deck, I'd rather have *more* land than I need in play, because immunity to mana denial + lots of land = immunity to Daze, Spell Pierce, etc.

And this hand:



Island
Island
Island
Island
Shackles
Jace
Shackles


Is actually a perfectly good hand vs. aggro decks. And even against non-aggro decks, it's not terrible in that A.) it ensures you are hitting all of your land drops and will play Jace comfortably on turn 4 if you want to, and on turn 5+ with land open. B.) because of all of the counterspells/misdirect in the deck, I can keep it feeling confident that I will hit at least one of them (FoW, SP, CS, MD, D) within the next 2 turns.

[MGB]

Do you understand that fair decks side out force of will against other fair decks? Do you understand why they would do that? Using misdirection in counterwars in the same as force of will, but being reduced to use force of will (note the choice of word here. Implying that you are in a situation where you HAVE to use it, removing a blue card in your hand) in a counter war is already something NOT THAT GOOD. It is something you do WHEN YOU ARE FORCED TO DO IT (pun intended). If you think that playing a control deck is all about emptying your hand in order to play ONE bomb, then you are horribly wrong, I believe. Please give me situations where misdirection would break even, against your average deck. The way I see it, you probably are just going to be empty, with nothing on the board, nothing in your hands. This is why you use misdi usually, in a combo shell. You play it in your favorite sneak show deck, in order to have one of your big guys come in play ASAP, and kill your opponent ON THE SPOT. Empty handed? who care? I win. Now.


Using Force of Will to fight over a bomb is perfectly acceptable. There's a reason that Combo decks play Force of Will - to land a bomb. MUC is not much different in that regard. It plays bombs like Vedalken Shackles (bomb vs aggro that ends the game against creature decks in the long run), Back to Basics (bomb against most manabases that ends the game in the long run), Jace (complete bomb against everything that wins the game like 95% of the time it sticks on an empty board).

Misdirection breaks even:

Opponent plays Abrupt Decay targeting my Back to Basics. I cast Misdirection pitching a blue card (-2 cards for me), targeting Decay to redirect it to his Deathrite Shaman (-2 cards for him 0 Abrupt Decay+Deathrite Shaman). Net card advantage for me? +0 or breaking even. More importantly, I protect my Back to Basics (that will wreck house vs. a greedy manabase) from uncounterable removal

Opponent plays Thoughtseize targeting me. I cast Misdirection pitching a blue card (-2 cards for me), targeting Thoughtseize to redirect it to his hand, forcing him to discard one of his nonland cards (-2 cards for him - Thoughtseize+card in hand). Net card advantage for me? +0 or breaking even. More importantly, I protect a bomb in my hand (B2B, Jace, Shackles, etc) from his discard and probably win because of it in the long run

Misdirection comes out ahead:

Opponent plays Hymn to Tourach targeting me I cast Misdirection pitching a blue card (-2 cards for me), targeting Hymn to redirect it to his hand. (-3 cards for him - Hymn+two cards in hand). Net card advantage for me? +1. More importantly, I protect my hand from his discard and in turn rip apart his hand with his own discard spell!

Basically speaking, against targeted removal or targeted discard, Misdirection at least breaks even 90% of the time. Divert in those situations would obviously be +1 card advantage in each one, as well.

Against opposing counterspells, Misdirection only breaks even against an opposing Force of Will or Misdirection obviously, but if I win a counterwar over a Jace early in the game, or a Back to Basics against a tapped out opponent playing mostly nonbasic lands, then what do I care if I'm down a card? Sticking Back to Basics or Jace against most decks is the equivalent of completing a combo kill. The only difference is that I'm guaranteed victory a few turns from now instead of right now.



That's not true. How mana hungry do you think he really is? Do you believe he needs to entreats you for 10 in order to kill you? Because the way I see it, with what? 8 basics? he can literally play anything in his deck, AND defend it, if need be. But, I mean, what do I know. It's not like I was actually playing back to basics in my own miracle build at some point because I wanted to keep it u/w, or that I even played miracles at some point in my life. Nope. Difinitely not the case AT ALL.


You do realize that the Miracles player, over the course of 5+ turns will probably draw some nonbasic lands? It's not like the deck is entirely fetchlands. What is he going to do? Keep them in hand and hope for fetchlands to come his way instead? No, he will be forced to play nonbasics that he topdecks. This happens alot in these matchups. Yes, he can fetch basics with regularity, but if you think that a Miracles player can consistently stick with nothing but basics in every game, you are delusional.




Finally, if you think you can simply rely on back to basics to get you out of trouble against 12 post (which, to be honnest, was what I thought you would tell me), then you are horibly wrong. Especially when a deck like yours can't even kill him quickly. Have you played that matchup? Again. You give me this "but it works on paper!!!" bulshit, when in practice, you probably will be very disapointed...

I've played against 12post at least 15+ times online and offline and never lost a full 2/3 sb match. The combination of Back to Basics, a plethora of countermagic that stops him from playing any relevant spell (because you don't counter the mana acceleration typically, and thus he can never land Show and Tell vs. you), Chalice of the Void and Vendilion Clique form the sideboard for games 2-3... It's incredibly bad matchup for 12post, and that's lots of experience talking.

[nedleeds]

It's not as bad as you make it out to be.

Really. 22 Lands is just enough to ensure that you hit 4 Islands by Turn4-5 consistently, which is what you want. In this deck, there really isn't such a thing as "mana flood" because if you haven't figured out yet, but Control decks are mana-hungry by nature.

And as far as mana denial - the advantage to playing all basics and no fetchlands means you are basically *completely* immune to all forms of land destruction/mana denial popularly played aside from the fringe Sinkhole. Again, as a control deck, I'd rather have *more* land than I need in play, because immunity to mana denial + lots of land = immunity to Daze, Spell Pierce, etc.

And this hand:


Is actually a perfectly good hand vs. aggro decks. And even against non-aggro decks, it's not terrible in that A.) it ensures you are hitting all of your land drops and will play Jace comfortably on turn 4 if you want to, and on turn 5+ with land open. B.) because of all of the counterspells/misdirect in the deck, I can keep it feeling confident that I will hit at least one of them (FoW, SP, CS, MD, D) within the next 2 turns.

Doing nothing until turn 4 seems fine in legacy. Look if you aren't playing chalice on 1 or trinisphere or a 30 creature Merfolk deck you should be playing Brainstorm. It turns your second shackles into more countermagic vs. combo, and your useless divert on turn 6 into shackles against man decks. If you don't understand how a card that is a pillar of the format works then I might as well just do this

http://www.p-m-g-i.com/Beating_Head_Against_Wall_C2.jpg

than have a rational MTG conversation with you. I'm sure you'll draw the exact card for the exact game state in sequence across a 6+ round tourney and rule the world.

[Kich867]

It's not as bad as you make it out to be.

Really. 22 Lands is just enough to ensure that you hit 4 Islands by Turn4-5 consistently, which is what you want. In this deck, there really isn't such a thing as "mana flood" because if you haven't figured out yet, but Control decks are mana-hungry by nature.

And as far as mana denial - the advantage to playing all basics and no fetchlands means you are basically *completely* immune to all forms of land destruction/mana denial popularly played aside from the fringe Sinkhole. Again, as a control deck, I'd rather have *more* land than I need in play, because immunity to mana denial + lots of land = immunity to Daze, Spell Pierce, etc.


That hand would lose to a decent aggro hand almost every game unless you top deck the nuts, but you can't because you aren't running Brainstorm. Like, the point he's making isn't that you won't find enough lands with 22 lands, it's that none of them are fetches and you're not running brainstorm, in a mono blue deck. There has to be -really- good reasons to not run Brainstorm. And you don't have one. In fact you're shoving extra copies of cards you don't want extra copies of in order to maintain consistency, when you could shave 1 from 4 of them, run 4 brainstorm and 8 fetches, and your deck is legit 100 times better off the bat. Don't be a hipster about it, you aren't breaching new territories by not running Brainstorm, you're willfully and purposely hurting your deck's consistency.

By simply cutting a misdirection (put it in the side), shackles, b2b, and a keg, and plopping 4 brainstorms in the deck, dropping 8 basics for 8 fetches (22 lands is perfect for a deck with brainstorm and no wastelands), you now have way more flexibility without sacrificing anything. Bad hands are good hands, things that need immediate answers can be found, you can plan out the next 3 turns and take over the game, you're less susceptible to discard, your deck becomes fundamentally better at doing exactly what you want it to, more often, without any drawbacks whatsoever.

[MGB]

Doing nothing until turn 4 seems fine in legacy. Look if you aren't playing chalice on 1 or trinisphere or a 30 creature Merfolk deck you should be playing Brainstorm. It turns your second shackles into more countermagic vs. combo, and your useless divert on turn 6 into shackles against man decks. If you don't understand how a card that is a pillar of the format works then I might as well just do this


You're dramatically overstating the speed of this format right now. Against Goblins or Merfolk, yes, doing nothing until turn 4 is probably Game Over for you. But this particular metagame, which makes it enticing to MUC, is that the Aggro decks are slower, and more mid-range in nature.

Look, I understand the power of Brainstorm+fetchlands. However, it's just not necessary in a deck that is predicated upon either a.) answers or b.) raw card advantage. Brainstorm is card selection or card quality. This deck wants Card Advantage in its draw spells so that it can support all of its answers.

That's why Ancestral Vision is perfect. It's one of the few spells that creates +2 card advantage from a single draw spell. Brainstorm is inferior to Vision in this particular deck. If you want to run Brainstorm in addition to Vision, then it's certainly doable. I have simply never felt the need for it. Why insert a layer of tempo loss (paying one mana to Brainstorm) when I could just play more answers? Yes, some of those answers will be inappropriate against certain decks, but not as often as you make it out to be.

[Darkenslight]

[QUOTE=MGB;714658]It's not as bad as you make it out to be.

Really. 22 Lands is just enough to ensure that you hit 4 Islands by Turn4-5 consistently, which is what you want. In this deck, there really isn't such a thing as "mana flood" because if you haven't figured out yet, but Control decks are mana-hungry by nature.

And as far as mana denial - the advantage to playing all basics and no fetchlands means you are basically *completely* immune to all forms of land destruction/mana denial popularly played aside from the fringe Sinkhole. Again, as a control deck, I'd rather have *more* land than I need in play, because immunity to mana denial + lots of land = immunity to Daze, Spell Pierce, etc.[QUOTE]

And are you at least willing to test this, to ensure that it is, indeed, correct to not play any BS?

[MGB]

That hand would lose to a decent aggro hand almost every game unless you top deck the nuts, but you can't because you aren't running Brainstorm. Like, the point he's making isn't that you won't find enough lands with 22 lands, it's that none of them are fetches and you're not running brainstorm, in a mono blue deck. There has to be -really- good reasons to not run Brainstorm. And you don't have one. In fact you're shoving extra copies of cards you don't want extra copies of in order to maintain consistency, when you could shave 1 from 4 of them, run 4 brainstorm and 8 fetches, and your deck is legit 100 times better off the bat. Don't be a hipster about it, you aren't breaching new territories by not running Brainstorm, you're willfully and purposely hurting your deck's consistency.

By simply cutting a misdirection (put it in the side), shackles, b2b, and a keg, and plopping 4 brainstorms in the deck, dropping 8 basics for 8 fetches (22 lands is perfect for a deck with brainstorm and no wastelands), you now have way more flexibility without sacrificing anything. Bad hands are good hands, things that need immediate answers can be found, you can plan out the next 3 turns and take over the game, you're less susceptible to discard, your deck becomes fundamentally better at doing exactly what you want it to, more often, without any drawbacks whatsoever.

What you're doing in this situation is adding a layer of tempo loss.

You're forcing the pilot to pay 1 blue mana for each of those answers that you have cut. That is the downside of playing Brainstorm. The upside, obviously, is that in some situations (not all of them), the playing of Brainstorm will enable you to trade one answer that is not applicable to the current situation for a different answer that *is* applicable.

However, in playtesting, I've discovered that in like 70-80% of games, I have a nice variety of answers due to this thing called "randomization". Drawing 3 Shackles in my opening hand is not the regular occurrence, believe it or not. So Brainstorm, for its card-selection usefulness, would be valuable to me in about 20% of my games. In 100% of the games in which I draw Brainstorm, I am forced to pay that tempo tax. Is it worthwhile to me to make my deck slower just so that, at most, 20% of my games feature slightly better card quality? And in those 20% of games in which I need card quality and Brainstorm is there for me ALONGSIDE a fetchland... how many of those times do I truly find a more useful solution in the top three cards of my deck? Maybe the Vedalken Shackles that I cut for that Brainstorm is what I needed and all I see on the top of my deck is more counterspells?

Maybe the Divert I cut for that Brainstorm is what I needed after playing Jace, and leaving one Island open, and opponent plays his Force of Will? Instead, I am spending that Island to fiddle with the top of my deck instead of actually countering his Force of Will with my Divert. This point can't be stated strongly enough. Paying the "tempo tax" of one blue mana in situations that happen *frequently* in Legacy can mean the difference between losing and winning. That Jace scenario - 5 Islands in play, I play Jace, opponent casts Force of Will/ Counterspell/Spell Pierce... happens often. With a Divert, I could land my Jace. With Brainstorm, I'm looking for Misdirection or Force of Will and I may not find it.

Additionally, playing Brainstorm introduces a style of play, or forces you to adhere to a style of play, that makes you feel the need to "wait" before cracking fetchlands. This deck is all about playing bombs and landing permanents and then using its countermagic to protect that. Draw-Go is not the ideal line of play with MUC anymore. Brainstorm conflicts with this style of play. It makes you conserve your fetchlands and hold your Brainstorm in hand, like a blank check, before the right time to play it. It's diametrically opposed to the style of play engendered by the other cards in this deck.

[Lemnear]

Oh my god!

Why no one told me this thread is even more hilarious than the "Old School U/W Control" Thread in the Development Section?!?!

And I was flipping tables about Nevi Disk, Eternal Dragon and Decree of Justice ... While here I can find posts like "Brainstorm is inferior to Visions" and Matchup Analysis from Winterwonderland. XD



To add something constuctive: this Deck looses hard to ANY Combo or Aggro Deck of the Format. Listen to nedleeds and the community, dood

@nedleeds: I swear every time I see your Forum Name I read "NeedLED's"

[MGB]

Anyway, regardless of how strongly I feel about some of this stuff, I do understand that card quality can be important over the course of a long tournament.

*If* I was to play a build with Brainstorm and fetchlands, I'd do it this way:



10 Island
1 Mountain / Volcanic Island
1 Forest / Tropical Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm

4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Divert
2 Misdirection

4 Engineered Explosives
3 Vedalken Shackles

4 Back to Basics

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SB: 4 <Grafdigger's Cage/Relic of Progenitus/Leyline of the Void>
SB: 4 Vendilion Clique
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Dream Tides


If i'm playing fetchlands, I might as well take advantage of the superior Engineered Explosives. I'll either be fetching singleton basic Mountain/Forest or Volcanic Island / Tropical Island. Fetching Mountain/Forest works better with Back to Basics, obviously and maintains Wasteland-immunity whereas the duals do not.

The downside to playing fetchlands + Brainstorm is twofold: a.) the tempo tax of 1 blue mana in crucial situations when you need an answer and b.) taking damage from fetchlands, which adds up in the long run vs. aggro decks.

[MGB]

Oh my god!

Why no one told me this thread is even more hilarious than the "Old School U/W Control" Thread in the Development Section?!?!

And I was flipping tables about Nevi Disk, Eternal Dragon and Decree of Justice ... While here I can find posts like "Brainstorm is inferior to Visions" and Matchup Analysis from Winterwonderland. XD


As good as Brainstorm is, you have to open up your mind and understand exactly what the card does. It's card quality and nothing more. You are *not* creating card advantage in any situation when you play Brainstorm from your hand. Ancestral Vision is pure card advantage. That is: it actually puts more cards in your hand then before you resolved it. More cards = more answers = what control wants.



To add something constuctive: this Deck looses hard to ANY Combo or Aggro Deck of the Format. Listen to nedleeds and the community, dood


How can this deck lose hard to combo? It plays tons of countermagic G1, and then just boards into 4 Chalice of the Void and 4 Vendilion Clique, taking out the anti-aggro stuff like Vedalken Shackles in g2 and g3.

I mean, if anything, the reason to play MUC is its ability to smash the face of all combo decks in the format with regularity.

And aggro is only a bad matchup if it's fast. Mid-rangey aggro decks like the kind that people are playing right now (BG, fatter creatures, more removal spells) is easier for MUC to face because it has a chance to stabilize .

No offense. but man, you sound incredibly ignorant about the actual mechanics of the game and the format. I mean, seriously, questioning the ability an all-blue deck packed to the gills with countermagic AND multiple anti-combo threats in the sideboard to fight combo? Not understanding the fundamental difference between "card quality" and "card advantage"?

[Lemnear]

May tell me how you cast counterspell off the Forest or the Mountain? Thanks.

If you feel the mana for Brainstorm is a "Tempo loss" you are playing ist wrong. Read this: http://www.channelfireball.com/home/feature-article-the-legacy-of-brainstorm/

Vision Takes 4 turns to deliver an answer, Brainstorm delivers immediately. YOU trying to teach ME a 94' Starter and Type 1.0/1.5 Veteran kinda offends me.

@combo: you have no idea how Legacy Combo works. There are cards like Silence, Duress and Xantid Swarms among the ability to win during Turn 1/2 before your Counterspell is even castable. Brainstorm could dig Turn 1/2 for FoW but you refuse to accept that. Misdirection and Divert do nothing against combo

[nedleeds]

Why insert a layer of tempo loss (paying one mana to Brainstorm) when I could just play more answers? Yes, some of those answers will be inappropriate against certain decks, but not as often as you make it out to be.

What Tempo are you building in a deck with no threat until like turn 5? You are clearly trolling me and I've bitten on like Oprah on a waffle. I'm out.

[MGB]

May tell me how you cast counterspell off the Forest or the Mountain? Thanks.

If you feel the mana for Brainstorm is a "Tempo loss" you are playing ist wrong. Read this: http://www.channelfireball.com/home/feature-article-the-legacy-of-brainstorm/

It's a tempo tax. Any time you playing something with mana, you are investing tempo in it. Brainstorm by itself does nothing - it does not answer any threat. All it does is filter your hand into other answers or threats. As such, you are paying 1 blue mana for the privilege of increasing your card quality.

[MGB]

What Tempo are you building in a deck with no threat until like turn 5? You are clearly trolling me and I've bitten on like Oprah on a waffle. I'm out.

You are not building your own tempo, you need to answer your opponent's tempo. All decks either build tempo or react to tempo.

Again, did you read my situation?

5 Islands in play. I cast Jace. Opponent plays Force of Will. I can either have that Divert in my hand or the Brainstorm. Which would I rather have? I can pay the U to cast Brainstorm and try to draw into one of the few remaining Misdirection or Force of Will, or I can just answer it immediately with the Divert.

[Lemnear]

5 Islands in play. I cast Jace. Opponent plays Force of Will. I can either have that Divert in my hand or the Brainstorm. Which would I rather have? I can pay the U to cast Brainstorm and try to draw into one of the few remaining Misdirection or Force of Will, or I can just answer it immediately with the Divert.

Update: The Moment you have 5 Islands in Play an average Legacy Deck either killed you or, in Case of the BGx decks, ripped your hand completely

Welcome to Legacy




Please test the Deck in a tournament before presenting ideas as facts

[MGB]

Update: The Moment you have 5 Islands in Play an average Legacy Deck either killed you or, in Case of the BGx decks, ripped your hand completely

Welcome to Legacy

This is one of the most ignorant statements ever posted on this forum.

This is like Type 2 players bleating "Vintage / Legacy sux. The entire format is about killing with combo on Turn 1."

[Lemnear]

This is one of the most ignorant statements ever posted on this forum.

This is like Type 2 players bleating "Vintage / Legacy sux. The entire format is about killing with combo on Turn 1."

Yeah because believing you can Play 5 turns unmolested "Island, go" don't show ignorance

[MGB]

Yeah because believing you can Play 5 turns unmolested "Island, go" don't show ignorance

It's not like the deck doesn't have other cards besides Islands and 4 Jace, right? Nah... My entire decklist must be 54 Islands and 4 Jace!

Wow man, you come into the thread spouting taunts and then not only do you *not* answer any of my rebuttals about your baseless accusations, but you spout ignorant, naive nonsense that would be embarrassing coming from a 10-year-old Type 2 player who just bought his first Booster Pack.

Congratulations.

[Doomsday]

Pretty sure the last page or two are part of an elaborate April Fools joke. I think you still had a few people going with the "no Brainstorm" thing, but the two off-color basic lands in a mono blue deck for EE was what really gave it away.

[Lemnear]

Have you finally put a nose in the Brainstorm Article I posted? There is a reason Brainstorm is a staple in Blue Decks for more than 10 years and you act like being smarter than ten thousands of Players during that timeframe, bringing up with flawed arguments and present "results" and "conclusion" without ever played a halfways serious tournament with the Deck or at very least a few decent kitchen table events.

You may check my tournament history, results and reports posted on this page if you think my input is "baseless". Trying to discredit a tournament players experience over mote than 15 years in the Game with nothing but Personal impressions is stupid if your intention was to gain feedback and assistance from the community.

I presented you even reasons why you overestimate the Combo and BGx Matchup but you call me ignorant instead of discussing the matter.

[.dk]

Seems like you could make a case for no Brainstorm if you're running Energy Field and no fetchlands. In which case I think you'd want Preordain. It does seem very odd to not be able to filter through your cards in a deck full of answers so that you can find the right one for the situation...

[ThediscoPower]

Using Force of Will to fight over a bomb is perfectly acceptable. There's a reason that Combo decks play Force of Will - to land a bomb. MUC is not much different in that regard. It plays bombs like Vedalken Shackles (bomb vs aggro that ends the game against creature decks in the long run), Back to Basics (bomb against most manabases that ends the game in the long run), Jace (complete bomb against everything that wins the game like 95% of the time it sticks on an empty board).

...


Not even gonna respond to this. My time is probably worth better than that. The funniest part is actually the fact that This whole thing is probably an attempt to troll the hell out of people. Never ever seen so many statements out of wonderland, like ever.



You do realize that the Miracles player, over the course of 5+ turns will probably draw some nonbasic lands? It's not like the deck is entirely fetchlands. What is he going to do? Keep them in hand and hope for fetchlands to come his way instead? No, he will be forced to play nonbasics that he topdecks. This happens alot in these matchups. Yes, he can fetch basics with regularity, but if you think that a Miracles player can consistently stick with nothing but basics in every game, you are delusional.


Do you realise that double wasteland is not a problem to miracles? Do you realise that I PLAYED miracles (something you actually never did)?

Before telling me I am delusional, explain to me how you are supposed to never let counterbalance stick ever (20% of the time, right), never let your jace be countered ever (or let an opposing jace resolve ever) AND, at the same time, defend your back to basic, and always have ALL of the mana you need, with the list you are showing me. And against any other decks, you can also do all of this (replace counter CB by "counter anything of interest"), ALONG with protect shackles.



I've played against 12post at least 15+ times online and offline and never lost a full 2/3 sb match. The combination of Back to Basics, a plethora of countermagic that stops him from playing any relevant spell (because you don't counter the mana acceleration typically, and thus he can never land Show and Tell vs. you), Chalice of the Void and Vendilion Clique form the sideboard for games 2-3... It's incredibly bad matchup for 12post, and that's lots of experience talking.



Wait...you mean chalice of the void on turn 2 (with force backup) right. Becase, you know, you have like 0 ways to cast that earlier right? And without countering the mana acceleration too right? Do you seriously want me to tell you what I think about your experience when you are fighting over the fact that brainstorm is a worse card than ancestral visions at this very moment?

You know what? do you have a stream? can you Stream a daily of a bunch of matches with that deck? I want to see you play this deck. If not, does anyone have a Stream where they could play this deck? I am sure we can even kickstart the Modo tickets for this, or something. Please? someone? I would do it myself, if I played on modo :(

[Lemnear]

J. Rudolph's 12-Post beats the crap out of this deck in 7/7 games i've tested this evening.

Repeal > B2B
Eye of Ugin + Emrakul > MUC
Titan + GSZ + S&T > Counterspell + FoW

Misdirections and Divert are dead except against repeal.

The second or third thread is 100% from 12-post deadly to this MUC variant because in my testing i draw sooooo many bricks like Misd., Divert, Shackles and B2B which you not being able to Board Out in Game 2/3 for value

Edit: Deck looses to Meddling Mage/Needle on Jace?? X)

[Star|Scream]

Lemnear: But aren't you ignoring the Tempo Tax?

[Lemnear]

Lemnear: But aren't you ignoring the Tempo Tax?

Bet I make this a running gag

[MGB]

J. Rudolph's 12-Post beats the crap out of this deck in 7/7 games i've tested this evening.

Repeal > B2B
Eye of Ugin + Emrakul > MUC
Titan + GSZ + S&T > Counterspell + FoW

Misdirections and Divert are dead except against repeal.

The second or third thread is 100% from 12-post deadly to this MUC variant because in my testing i draw sooooo many bricks like Misd., Divert, Shackles and B2B which you not being able to Board Out in Game 2/3 for value

Edit: Deck looses to Meddling Mage/Needle on Jace?? X)

I'm sure your brief 1-2 hours of testing with a decklist you have little experience playing negates months and years of playtesting I've done with this list.

Repeal on B2B is one of the very few important plays the 12post deck makes that you can, you know, counter. The other is playing Show and Tell. That's basically it.

12post is a combo deck with a handful of bomb spells that a control deck can counter easily, and B2B owns their manabase. And they don't play any discard or counters themselves, so you fear no disruption. It's a great matchup for MUC.

[MGB]

Seems like you could make a case for no Brainstorm if you're running Energy Field and no fetchlands. In which case I think you'd want Preordain. It does seem very odd to not be able to filter through your cards in a deck full of answers so that you can find the right one for the situation...

Brainstorm is a great, great spell, but too often people in Magic, and especially Legacy, turn certain things into "Sacred Cows".

Standstill was another for a long time. People clung to Standstill as the "de facto" draw spell for Control until it long became inefficient in a format full of fast threats and AEther Vials and everyone playing Wasteland. To some, Standstill is still a "sacred cow".

Now, Brainstorm is not a bad spell, but it's not nearly the auto-include in every single blue deck that people make it out to be.

- It's only "good" if you have an uncracked fetchland in play. Period. Otherwise it is a mediocre play. Now, that means your deck needs to play at least 10+ fetchlands to make it worthwhile. In a typical match, your deck will lose 2-3 life, on average, to fetchlands. Against aggro decks, this is alot more meaningful than you would think. Losing life is a serious drawback, especially when you will be losing typically at least 1 life to a Force of Will. Spotting an aggro deck 3 life a game is not something to be scoffed at.

- Costing 1 blue mana is not a lot, but in a control deck, again, you have to keep up with the opposing deck's tempo. Taking 1 blue mana early in the game simply to filter some of your cards can often be enough to set you behind the curve, especially against an aggro or combo deck. This is not to be dismissed lightly. Instead of spending that 1 blue mana to filter cards, I could have been using it to play a counterspell, or suspending a real draw spell such as Ancestral Vision, or playing my bomb (Shackles / B2B) earlier instead of just looking for it.

- Even in the ideal situation: uncracked fetchland, playing it @ EOT with surplus mana... You are trading Brainstorm plus two cards in your hand already for three new cards on the top of your library. These new cards could be just as irrelevant as the cards already in hand that you are willing to trade away. Brainstorm is not a tutor. In a deck withi redundant answers such as MUC, the filtering ability is not nearly as useful as a real tutor would be. There's a reason I play mostly 4-ofs of everything in this deck. Brainstorm is far more useful to a deck with 1-2-of answers, or a combo deck that needs to find exactly the right piece to assemble its combo and win. MUC doesnt' care if it gets Counterspell or Spell Pierce much of the time, or if it gets Back to Basics or Jace against control, or if it gets Keg or Shackles against aggro. Redundancy of answers and threats in the deck lessens the need for filtering spells like Brainstorm.

[Koby]

I used to play Draw Go in Standard about 15 years ago. This deck isn't too far from that mark.
You deck won't be able to compete in Legacy in its current form - that I can tell as much from your decklist.

I recommend watching some games of control decks in action to get a better idea of what to expect in Legacy. Joe Lossett vs Lauren Nolen (http://blip.tv/scglive/scgvegas-leg-quarterfinals-b-joe-lossett-vs-lauren-nolen-6472884) is a really good match up.

[ThediscoPower]

I'm sure your brief 1-2 hours of testing with a decklist you have little experience playing negates months and years of playtesting I've done with this list.

Repeal on B2B is one of the very few important plays the 12post deck makes that you can, you know, counter. The other is playing Show and Tell. That's basically it.

12post is a combo deck with a handful of bomb spells that a control deck can counter easily, and B2B owns their manabase. And they don't play any discard or counters themselves, so you fear no disruption. It's a great matchup for MUC.

Then again, the 12 post guy can just stare at you and not play anything. Draw go you, putting lands into play, tapping a glimmerpost sometimes to play a candelabra. Then he can just hardcast an emrakul because you actually have no clock. And take a second turn. and wipe your board. With your misdirections still in your hand.

But I am sure YOU can show us all your experience in action by uploading a couple of matches yes? Or better, playing the deck live right? Against actual people?

[Lemnear]

I'm sure your brief 1-2 hours of testing with a decklist you have little experience playing negates months and years of playtesting I've done with this list.

Repeal on B2B is one of the very few important plays the 12post deck makes that you can, you know, counter. The other is playing Show and Tell. That's basically it.

12post is a combo deck with a handful of bomb spells that a control deck can counter easily, and B2B owns their manabase. And they don't play any discard or counters themselves, so you fear no disruption. It's a great matchup for MUC.

If your Argument is that you can wait till you Control 5 Lands to Play B2B + counterspell for the eot Repeal I have to remind you that 12-Post can go lethal by that time. Backing up B2B Turn 3 with FoW is possible but 12-posts also run All Is Dust/Oblivion Stone in addition which are castable Even with B2B out. That you ignore these sweepers in your justification gives me a clue against what Kind of misbuild decks you seem to "test" for your overly positive results.

You have done "years of playtesting"? Against which decks? Against real opponents? You try to tell me, you never faced problems or realized the flaws in your theory?

lol

[Darkenslight]

MGB: Good luck beating TinFins or Rogue Hermit 2/3. They're not as a fast as Flash Hulk, but they're usually pretty close. Even in my poor testing, you can get 20% turn 1 kills ON THE PLAY, WITH PROTECTION, and an additional 15% turn1 without.

[Lemnear]

MGB: Good luck beating TinFins or Rogue Hermit 2/3. They're not as a fast as Flash Hulk, but they're usually pretty close. Even in my poor testing, you can get 20% turn 1 kills ON THE PLAY, WITH PROTECTION, and an additional 15% turn1 without.

It has no use pointing him at Combo. He ignores it and claims MUC straight beats Combo. Neither is Delver + Daze + Spell Pierce + Stifle an argument against Shackles working in Time and as intended aside from the Formats common foils Nimble Mongoose (RUG), Geist of Saint Draft (Stoneblade) or Thrun (Nic Fit) beating the hell Out of this Deck alone

[The Treefolk Master]

I will not add to the Brainstorm discussion (or the original deck that brought this up in the first place); everything that can be said on the matter has been said, so I see no point.

In the meantime, the UR deck I posted got, sadly, 0 attention, being as it was, trapped in the Brainstorm hurricane (no pun intended). Today I was reading Caleb Durward's article Brewing Control and the same UR list was being mentioned: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-brewing-control/

For reference, here's the list:

7 Island
2 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Academy Ruins
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Trinket Mage
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Blood Moon
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Counterspell
1 Sudden Shock
4 Force of Will
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pithing Needle
2 Vedalken Shackles
//Sideboard

SB: 3 Divert
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Grim Lavamancer

Any thoughts? Lets make something of the larger flow of people this thread is now seeing due to the Brainstorm "discussion", and actually make something useful of it. This version Top 4d a large vent (384 players), and Japan, while having with a larger than average Rogue deck % of the metagame, does host a respectable Legacy scene.

[Lemnear]

Maybe you want to start your own thread. Posting a UR Deck in the Mono-Blue-Control section is misleading

[DragoFireheart]

Now, Brainstorm is not a bad spell, but it's not nearly the auto-include in every single blue deck that people make it out to be.
.

Brainstorm is restricted in Vintage. Standstill is not.

[igri_is_a_bk]

I don't even think MUC should be in the established decks forum anymore. There are absolutely zero results getting posted with a genuinely MUC deck. I really don't understand all the discussion. You're all just pissing into the wind.

[The Treefolk Master]

Maybe you want to start your own thread. Posting a UR Deck in the Mono-Blue-Control section is misleading

We've discussed slight splashes before. I had considered starting my own thread, but I do not have enough experience with the deck to write anything close to a primer. But I guess I'll just do it anyway, and add information when I get some games with the deck.

[DragoFireheart]

I don't even think MUC should be in the established decks forum anymore. There are absolutely zero results getting posted with a genuinely MUC deck. I really don't understand all the discussion. You're all just pissing into the wind.

I agree.

[Lemnear]

I tend to agree.

MUC pretty much lacks ANY working deck core atm. We have seen a wild rotation of FoF, Visions and Standstills as draw engines; Crucible-Mishra-Wasteland or B2B for mana control attempts; Bounce, Shackles and control-magicas like Sower of Temptation and a multitude of Finishers from Jace to Morphling to Consecrated Sphinx.

Nothing really worked, mainly because of the pressence of powecreep among creatures and blue's natural weakness to those.

A "Deck" without Core, concept or results has nothing left in the Established Forum

[kingtk3]

...
Nothing really worked, mainly because of the Tempo Tax

Corrected for you XD

[Tao]

Direction fights in a thread are nothing unusual, especially when a deck stops performing. MUC will stay in this forum indefinitely like UG Madness or Rifter. If it stays bad like them, eventually people will lose interest in it and the thread will disappear on the back pages.

For MUC itself I agree. I do not see any way to make it competitive. There is no concept simply because the cards aren't good enough anymore. It got power creeped and THEN Abrupt Decay got printed to make things even worse.

[Lemnear]

Corrected for you XD

Damn! Got me X(

[DragoFireheart]

It got power creeped and THEN Abrupt Decay got printed to make things even worse.

I think the combination of "Can't Counter" cards have really turned the strategy of draw-go in Legacy to be very bad. You must be proactive in some way. You can't just sit and wait for something to happen. Hell, even Miracle Control is proactive, be it Entreat or StoneForge Mystic or RiP/Helm combo. Decks that want to durdle around need a combination of counters and removal. Using only counters to stop everything isn't a solution anymore.

[MGB]

I used to play Draw Go in Standard about 15 years ago. This deck isn't too far from that mark.
You deck won't be able to compete in Legacy in its current form - that I can tell as much from your decklist.

I recommend watching some games of control decks in action to get a better idea of what to expect in Legacy. Joe Lossett vs Lauren Nolen (http://blip.tv/scglive/scgvegas-leg-quarterfinals-b-joe-lossett-vs-lauren-nolen-6472884) is a really good match up.

I've played this deck for 3+ years online and offline, and in local tournaments. It is definitely competitive in this format, and specifically in this metagame.


Did Draw go in Standard 15 years ago have Jace? The combination of Back to Basics and Vedalken Shackles? A draw-3 draw spell in Ancestral Vision? Access to the best Counterspell and Force of Will?

To compare a Legacy deck that plays some of the best spells in the format to a Standard deck from 15 years ago is patently ridiculous. This decklist is not even much different from UW control lists except that it doesnt' splash white, and it plays artifact removal like Keg instead of targeted removal like StP.

[MGB]

Direction fights in a thread are nothing unusual, especially when a deck stops performing. MUC will stay in this forum indefinitely like UG Madness or Rifter. If it stays bad like them, eventually people will lose interest in it and the thread will disappear on the back pages.

For MUC itself I agree. I do not see any way to make it competitive. There is no concept simply because the cards aren't good enough anymore. It got power creeped and THEN Abrupt Decay got printed to make things even worse.

That's why Misdirection and Divert are so great right now. They turn opponent's Abrupt Decay into card disadvantage for them.

Misdirection and Divert maindeck literally make the BG matchup in MUC's favor.

[DragoFireheart]

I've played this deck for 3+ years online and offline, and in local tournaments. It is definitely competitive in this format, and specifically in this metagame.


Did Draw go in Standard 15 years ago have Jace? The combination of Back to Basics and Vedalken Shackles? A draw-3 draw spell in Ancestral Vision? Access to the best Counterspell and Force of Will?

To compare a Legacy deck that plays some of the best spells in the format to a Standard deck from 15 years ago is patently ridiculous. This decklist is not even much different from UW control lists except that it doesnt' splash white, and it plays artifact removal like Keg instead of targeted removal like StP.

And the data doesn't support your claims. You are wrong.

[MGB]

MGB: Good luck beating TinFins or Rogue Hermit 2/3. They're not as a fast as Flash Hulk, but they're usually pretty close. Even in my poor testing, you can get 20% turn 1 kills ON THE PLAY, WITH PROTECTION, and an additional 15% turn1 without.

Let's see. 4 Counterspell, 4 Spell Pierce, 4 Force of Will 3 Misdirection, 3 Divert maindeck. Postboard, I'll board into 4 Chalice of the Void, 4 Vendilion Clique, AND 4 Grave hate (whether Grafdigger's Cage or Leyline of the Void).

Good luck beating that in a 2/3 sb match if you're Tin Fins or Rogue Hermit.

[MGB]

And the data doesn't support your claims. You are wrong.

I keep winning with this deck whenever I play it. The data must be incomplete.

[MGB]

Then again, the 12 post guy can just stare at you and not play anything. Draw go you, putting lands into play, tapping a glimmerpost sometimes to play a candelabra. Then he can just hardcast an emrakul because you actually have no clock. And take a second turn. and wipe your board. With your misdirections still in your hand.


And then I play Jace on turn 4 , fateseal him until I end the game with the ultimate?

And in G2 and G3 I board in 4 Vendilion Clique additionally which give me yet another clock.

[DragoFireheart]

I keep winning with this deck whenever I play it. The data must be incomplete.

http://www.tcdecks.net/tipo.php?archetype=Mono%20Blue%20Control&format=Legacy

Please show me which decks are yours.

[MGB]

It's amazing how ridiculously closed-minded people are in this game and specifically this format. I guess there's a reason all of the Type 2 pros laugh at the Legacy regulars and consider this format highly underdeveloped: everyone would rather dismiss wide deviations or even slight variations of existing decks off-hand and make wild claims like "this is no different from a Type 2 deck from 15 years ago" instead of actually critically analyze specific card choices and matchup results of stuff they haven't played before.

[MGB]

http://www.tcdecks.net/tipo.php?archetype=Mono%20Blue%20Control&format=Legacy

Please show me which decks are yours.

I don't have the money or the time to play in big tournaments. I mostly play locally or online.

I thought this thread and these forums was for serious, honest discussion about deck archetypes for all people who play this format, whether big-time tournament regulars or not? Instead, what I see here is people who DON'T EVEN PLAY THE DECK in any venue shouting down innovation and discussion because a certain player who proposes ideas has not made a strong tournament presence.

And no, you don't have to be a big tournament player to have a competent handle on the format and the metagames.

[DragoFireheart]

I don't have the money or the time to play in big tournaments. I mostly play locally or online.

I thought this thread and these forums was for serious, honest discussion about deck archetypes for all people who play this format, whether big-time tournament regulars or not? Instead, what I see here is people who DON'T EVEN PLAY THE DECK in any venue shouting down innovation and discussion because a certain player who proposes ideas has not made a strong tournament presence.


Forum: Established Decks
For "finished" decks: Decks which are optimized and thoroughly tested. A deck is not required to have proven itself in a competitive tournament environment to be included in the Open Forum, but it is recommended. A thorough writeup including card choices, strategy, and matchup descriptions is required.

No offense, but this discussion should probably go into the New and Developmental Decks. It's one thing if the deck did perform exceptionally well and simply had an off day due to a shifting meta (goblins for example). It's another when the deck almost ceases to exist because it's clearly out classed (UG Madness for example). MUC is the latter and not the former. Just because you have had success in casual games doesn't make this deck good in the meta like you claim it should.

[MGB]

No offense, but this discussion should probably go into the New and Developmental Decks. It's one thing if the deck did perform exceptionally well and simply had an off day due to a shifting meta (goblins for example). It's another when the deck almost ceases to exist because it's clearly out classed (UG Madness for example). MUC is the latter and not the former. Just because you have had success in casual games doesn't make this deck good in the meta like you claim it should.

You're completely wrong about this. I play, online and offline, against players with tournament success playing tier 1 archetypes. This deck is legitimately good, and competes with every deck in the format and wins the majority of the time against nearly everything except for Goblins and Merfolk.

You have zero testing results with this decklist, and only a slight grasp of the theory behind the deck. You are not really qualified to even make claims about the deck's competitiveness until you understand it better and actually test with or against it in its modern incarnation (not crappy old outdated lists, or lists that play suboptimal crap like Propaganda).

[clavio]

It's amazing how ridiculously closed-minded people are in this game and specifically this format. I guess there's a reason all of the Type 2 pros laugh at the Legacy regulars and consider this format highly underdeveloped: everyone would rather dismiss wide deviations or even slight variations of existing decks off-hand and make wild claims like "this is no different from a Type 2 deck from 15 years ago" instead of actually critically analyze specific card choices and matchup results of stuff they haven't played before.

Criticism is very important for deck development. If someone posts a dubious decklist with dubious claims the reaction should not be A++++++!!! best deck evar!! so creative!!! If the deck can't stand up to criticism, it's probably not a good deck.

And to pile on, losing hard to combo and aggro doesn't seem to be the winning play in Legacy.

[MGB]

Criticism is very important for deck development. If someone posts a dubious decklist with dubious claims the reaction should not be A++++++!!! best deck evar!! so creative!!! If the deck can't stand up to criticism, it's probably not a good deck.

And to pile on, losing hard to combo and aggro doesn't seem to be the winning play in Legacy.

There is a difference between critical analysis, discussion, constructive criticism and just outright shouting someone down and insinuating that they're an idiot and a fool to even question the existing heirarchy.

Also, how does this deck lose hard to combo? Combo is this deck's BEST matchup. It's like you didn't even look at the decklist by making such a ridiculous claim.

The only decks that give my version of MUC problems are FAST aggro. Not midrange aggro, which this deck handles pretty easily. Fast aggro i.e. Vial Goblins, Vial Affinity (although Powder Keg makes it a better matchup), Vial Merfolk and Burn-augmented aggro like Zoo.

[DragoFireheart]

You're completely wrong about this. I play, online and offline, against palyers with tournament success playing tier 1 archetypes. This deck is legitimately good, and competes with every deck in the format and wins the majority of the time against nearly everything except for Goblins and Merfolk.

I thought you said you don't go to tournaments...?




You have zero testing results with this decklist,

I guess I could say the same to you since you haven't shown anything other than your word that this deck is a good choice. I think we can both see why this argument is a poor one to make.

As much as I love Shackles, there's a reason it doesn't see much play (hint: it's decaying). Other than Back to Basics, there is nothing that MUC offers over other control decks.


Now, Brainstorm is not a bad spell, but it's not nearly the auto-include in every single blue deck that people make it out to be.

Comments like this one make me wonder if you have as much of a grasp on Legacy as you claim to have. If I went to the Mana Drain and said:

"Now, Force of Will is not a bad spell, but it's not nearly the auto-include in every single blue deck that people make it out to be", I'd probably get some people flaming me/calling me a troll.

[clavio]

On the contrary, saying this deck beats combo is a "ridiculous claim." From the op:



Storm Combo is decidedly not fun. It is actually by far the worst matchup this deck has. You have no clock, and no matter how much countermagic you stockpile a well-timed Orim’s Chant or Abeyance will strip you of any chance to retaliate before the combo player nails your balls to the wall. Can you win? Sure. Will? Almost definitely not.


Your list adds nothing to the matchup. Divert is cute, but it's not going to make a difference. I also don't see how you can ever beat high tide. Even if you have enough counters to make combo fizzle (unlikely), your lack of a clock lets them sit back and build back up again.

[DragoFireheart]

On the contrary, saying this deck beats combo is a "ridiculous claim." From the op:



Your list adds nothing to the matchup. Divert is cute, but it's not going to make a difference. I also don't see how you can ever beat high tide. Even if you have enough counters to make combo fizzle (unlikely), your lack of a clock lets them sit back and build back up again.

22 Island

4 Ancestral Vision

4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
3 Divert
3 Misdirection

4 Powder Keg
4 Vedalken Shackles

4 Back to Basics

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


This was the list MGB posted. There is no clock and you will run out of counters against combo decks. A resolved Goose will probably mean the end of you. Shackles dies to Abrupt Decay. Back to Basics is the only redeeming feature, but the rest of the deck doesn't work.

[Koby]

I've played this deck for 3+ years online and offline, and in local tournaments. It is definitely competitive in this format, and specifically in this metagame.

Cool story bro, I've had Burn sleeved up since 2005.


Did Draw go in Standard 15 years ago have Jace? The combination of Back to Basics and Vedalken Shackles? A draw-3 draw spell in Ancestral Vision? Access to the best Counterspell and Force of Will?
No, obviously. It did not have to fight against Ad Nauseam and Past in Flames, or the Storm mechanic either. It did run Whispers of the Muse and Wasteland and Stalking Stones, because sometimes you need to win too. Point is, the decklist you posted doesn't have the best tools to addressing the Legacy format.


To compare a Legacy deck that plays some of the best spells in the format to a Standard deck from 15 years ago is patently ridiculous. This decklist is not even much different from UW control lists except that it doesnt' splash white, and it plays artifact removal like Keg instead of targeted removal like StP.

Not much different from UW Control?
UW Control has:
* Spot creature removal (StP)
* Mass creature removal (Wrath and Terminus)
* Defensive win conditions (Stoneforge Mystic)
* Artifact and enchantment removal (Disenchant)
* Graveyard hate (RIP)
* Brainstorm
* Twenty four lands

Mono-blue Control has none of these, and Vedalken Shackles, while a sweet card, doesn't solve all your problems. Powder Keg is a nice touch too, but it's too slow to deal with real threats.

[MGB]

I thought you said you don't go to tournaments...?

I guess I could say the same to you since you haven't shown anything other than your word that this deck is a good choice. I think we can both see why this argument is a poor one to make.

As much as I love Shackles, there's a reason it doesn't see much play (hint: it's decaying).


Pro Hint: Casting Misdirection or Divert on an Abrupt Decay does this thing called "redirecting" which enables you to CHANGE THE TARGET of that decay to instead target one of his creatures in play, thereby netting you a 2-for-1. Amazing, isn't it?



Comments like this one make me wonder if you have as much of a grasp on Legacy as you claim to have. If I went to the Mana Drain and said:

"Now, Force of Will is not a bad spell, but it's not nearly the auto-include in every single blue deck that people make it out to be", I'd probably get some people flaming me/calling me a troll.

Why don't you actually use a thought process and try to understand what Brainstorm actually does.



Brainstorm U
Instant

Draw three cards, then put two cards from your hand on top of your library in any order.


Do we agree that if fetchlands are not involved, then Brainstorm becomes a mediocre cantrip?

If so, then let's focus on the fetchland issue:

- Playing enough fetchlands to to support Brainstorm means that you have to play probably at the least 10 fetchlands. Over the course of your average game, you will lose 1-2 life at minimum to these fetchlands, and typically at least 2 life. You are spotting all aggro decks you face 2 life, and then you have to factor in life lost to Force of Will, which is usually at least 1 life in a typical game. Down 3 life to aggro = a serious issue.

- Playing fetchlands opens you up to Stifle as a form of mana denial. Not the most common scenario in this format, but still a threat in some tempo decks that use Stifle alongside Daze and Wasteland.

Those are the unnecessary problems you run into if you ditch the all-Island manabase for fetchlands.

Now let's analyze Brainstorm as it is intended to resolve: prior to a fetchland activation (and deck shuffling):

- You are trading a Brainstorm (1) and two cards in your hand (2) for three cards on the top of your library (3). 1+2=3. There is absolutely no card advantage being generated here. What is happening is that you are trading supposedly "dead" cards already in your hand for fresh cards that *may or may not* be dead on top of your library. There is no guarantee that any of those three cards on top of your library will be more useful to you than the two cards you shuffled away. In some situations, the cards on top of your library will be more relevant. In some situations, they won't be. Only in the former situation is Brainstorm ever doing anything of value. To make Brainstorm justified and relevant as a spell, you need to A.) Crack a fetchland following the Brainstorm and B.) find at least one more relevant answer in the top three cards of your library. Then and only then is Brainstorm not mediocre. Of course, these conditions are usually easily met. I'd say in the 10 fetchland deck, these conditions will be met maybe 70-80% of the time.

- The aforementioned trading of "dead" cards in hand for better ones on top of the library happens with far more frequency in a deck that diversifies its answers and bombs into smaller pieces. A deck playing, say, 1-2 of a certain board sweeper needs Brainstorm to give it the maximum chance to find that card in any given game. Mono Blue Control, on the other hand, is a deck built on redundancy. It is the Zoo of Control decks: it operates in multiple 4-ofs of every answer it has. The advantage of Brainstorm giving you access to slightly higher card quality and more of the top cards of your deck is not as valuable an advantage to a deck like MUC that plays 4-ofs of everything it could want. Often the deck will be trading Spell Pierce in hand for Counterspell on the top of the library, or Vedalken Shackles in hand for Powder Keg on top of the library. These answers in both cases are functionally similar. Brainstorm did not dramatically increase my card quality in that instance.

MUC wants to batter the opponent with a mountain of card advantage and redundant answers to opponent's threats. Brainstorm does not significantly help to advance that cause. Ancestral Vision is superior as a generator of card advantage in this deck, and Brainstorm is little more than a cantrip in most situations that forces you to lose life to fetchlands.

[Koby]

- You are trading a Brainstorm (1) and two cards in your hand (2) for three cards on the top of your library (3). 1+2=3. There is absolutely no card advantage being generated here. What is happening is that you are trading supposedly "dead" cards already in your hand for fresh cards that *may or may not* be dead on top of your library. There is no guarantee that any of those three cards on top of your library will be more useful to you than the two cards you shuffled away. In some situations, the cards on top of your library will be more relevant.

I actually lost it with this statement. I don't think you understand how this Brainstorm card works in the context of Legacy. Good luck at the kitchen table!

Let's suppose you are in the situation described above, scenario #1 is with Brainstorm in your deck, and scenario #2 is without.

Under Scenario #1, you would Brainstorm and see 3 dead cards (let's call them Islands). You put two of those islands back, and fetch/shuffle them away. While you didn't gain card advantage, you prevented yourself from drawing those three dead draws.

Under Scenario #2, you would be drawing lands 3 turns in a row. Of course, you probably wouldn't get to the third draw step, because you lost two turns ago from not drawing any business and your opponent resolves a game-winning spell that you couldn't answer.

FWIW - your deck has zero chance against Thrun, the Last Troll. At least UW Control has blockers or Batterskull that can delay or neuter the card. In your deck, you're just dead to it.


MUC wants to batter the opponent with a mountain of card advantage and redundant answers to opponent's threats. Brainstorm does not significantly help to advance that cause. Ancestral Vision is superior as a generator of card advantage in this deck, and Brainstorm is little more than a cantrip in most situations that forces you to lose life to fetchlands.

This hasn't been true for a number of years. Card Advantage is sweet, but Card Quality and Card Selection offer much better odds of winning games in Legacy. Playing cards like Misdirection and Force of Will actively hinder your goal of Card Advantage.

[MGB]

No, obviously. It did not have to fight against Ad Nauseam and Past in Flames, or the Storm mechanic either. It did run Whispers of the Muse and Wasteland and Stalking Stones, because sometimes you need to win too. Point is, the decklist you posted doesn't have the best tools to addressing the Legacy format.


Guess what? Wizards printed this guy called "jace the mindsculptor" which is the single most broken blue permanent ever printed, and functions as a draw engine, repeatable bounce, fateseal effect, AND "suspend 5: you win the game" win condition.

This obviously blows Stalking Stones out of the water and enables MUC to play 4-of Jace and nothing else as its primary win condition, something unimaginable to MUC players many years ago.

Also, there was this thing called Chalice of the Void printed that hoses Storm combo from the sideboard on top of massive volumes of maindeck countermagic.
And this creature called Vendilion Clique to wrecks combo as well. This kind of stuff, again, would be unimaginable to MUC players from your era, and make the combo matchup a breeze.





Not much different from UW Control?
UW Control has:
* Spot creature removal (StP)
* Mass creature removal (Wrath and Terminus)
* Defensive win conditions (Stoneforge Mystic)
* Artifact and enchantment removal (Disenchant)
* Graveyard hate (RIP)
* Brainstorm
* Twenty four lands


Mono Blue Control has:
* Spot creature removal that stalemates the board against aggro (Vedalken Shackles)
* Mass creature removal (Powder Keg / Ratchet Bomb) that can also blow up artifacts, lands and enchantments
* The best defensive win condition in the game (Jace the Mind Sculptor)
* More Countermagic than UW control, so that it can counter artifacts and enchantments, or use the aforementioned Keg/Ratchet Bomb
* Graveyard hate (4-of Leyline/Grafdiggers/whatever in the sideboard)
* No need for Brainstorm because instead of generating card quality the deck generates raw card advantage with Ancestral Vision
* Twenty two lands because that is just enough (and it can easily play 2 more if need be) because the 22 Island manabase is completely impervious to commonly played land destruction



Mono-blue Control has none of these, and Vedalken Shackles, while a sweet card, doesn't solve all your problems. Powder Keg is a nice touch too, but it's too slow to deal with real threats.

Powder Keg is too slow to deal with ultra fast aggro, but that's why MUC is positioned well right now: ultra fast aggro like Goblins and Merfolk are not in vogue at the moment. Keg is more than fast enough to deal with slower mid-range stuff.

[MGB]

On the contrary, saying this deck beats combo is a "ridiculous claim." From the op:



Your list adds nothing to the matchup. Divert is cute, but it's not going to make a difference. I also don't see how you can ever beat high tide. Even if you have enough counters to make combo fizzle (unlikely), your lack of a clock lets them sit back and build back up again.

Don't you understand how this works?

Magic is played across a 2/3 sb format.

Look at the sideboard:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Vendilion Clique

G1, the Storm/ High Tide matchup is say, 60/40 in MUC's favor, because Jace is enough of a clock (remember- Suspend 5: you win the game, all while you wreck their topdecks).

G2 and G3, it becomes a massive blowout in MUC's favor.

This is how the deck looks to the Combo opponent post-board:


22 Island

4 Ancestral Vision

4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
3 Misdirection
4 Chalice of the Void

3 Powder Keg
4 Vendilion Clique

4 Back to Basics

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


I trade anti-creature stuff and some Divert for Chalice and Clique. I don't know if you've ever played Combo against a deck that is not only packing Chalice, but counterspells, and force of will, and misdirection AND Vendilion Clique, but it is absolutely brutal to face for the combo deck.

G2 and G3 are very strongly in MUC's favor, and in combination with 60/40 or so G1 matchup, this enables MUC to have a good matchup against nearly any combo deck, and especially decks that rely on lots of 1cc spells (High Tide, Ad Naus, Belcher).

[MGB]

This was the list MGB posted. There is no clock and you will run out of counters against combo decks. A resolved Goose will probably mean the end of you. Shackles dies to Abrupt Decay. Back to Basics is the only redeeming feature, but the rest of the deck doesn't work.

Yeah, it's not like 4 Keg / Bomb don't easily blow up 1cc creatures like Nimble Mongoose, right? :rolleyes:

And in the sideboard, there is 3 Dream Tides. Check it out. It's absolutely a house against green creatures.

And again, Misdirection and Divert make this single-handedly worthwhile playing in a meta-game with Abrupt Decay. Didn't I go over this already?

[MGB]

On the contrary, saying this deck beats combo is a "ridiculous claim." From the op:



Also, the OP is ages old and references an inferior decklist that is not nearly as strong vs. combo as mine is.

[Koby]

We are skeptical about your list and the reasoning for not including Brainstorm. Your anecdotal evidence is not sufficient to turn our thoughts about the list you posted. Can you demonstrate better performance with your deck? If not, then be prepared for heavy criticism of your list compared to something more familiar.

For reference, this was the last well placing mono-blue list:


Mono Blue Control - Joan Castaño - 09/23/12 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9163&iddeck=66996)

Creatures [5]
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Trinket Mage

Instants [13]
1 Counterspell
2 Echoing Truth
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

Sorceries [2]
2 Devastation Tide

Enchantments [10]
2 Back to Basics
4 Counterbalance
4 Energy Field

Planeswalkers [2]
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifacts [6]
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Lands [22]
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
18 Island

Sideboard
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Meekstone
2 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Dispel
1 Flusterstorm
1 Reins of Power
2 Spell Pierce
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Vendilion Clique

[MGB]

I actually lost it with this statement. I don't think you understand how this Brainstorm card works in the context of Legacy. Good luck at the kitchen table!

Let's suppose you are in the situation described above, scenario #1 is with Brainstorm in your deck, and scenario #2 is without.

Under Scenario #1, you would Brainstorm and see 3 dead cards (let's call them Islands). You put two of those islands back, and fetch/shuffle them away. While you didn't gain card advantage, you prevented yourself from drawing those three dead draws.

Under Scenario #2, you would be drawing lands 3 turns in a row. Of course, you probably wouldn't get to the third draw step, because you lost two turns ago from not drawing any business and your opponent resolves a game-winning spell that you couldn't answer.



In Scenario #1, even though you shuffled away your 3 "dead" cards, you still are not guaranteed that the new cards on top of your deck are ANY better than the cards you shuffled away! you are still exposing yourself to the randomness on the top of your library. That is why the #1 reason to play Brainstorm is not this, but to trade away "dead" cards in your hand for the lotto ticket of the top 3 cards on your library, and that is nothing more than a lotto ticket as I described before.

And even the fact that the top three cards of your deck are all "dead" draws is unlikely anyway, given that MUC needs to be answering threats all the time in the early game and at least one answer will probably be sufficient in those three cards (counterspells are generic and answer nearly every deck's threats. the only really deck-specific answers are anti-creature stuff or misdirection against decks without targeted spells).

There are very few truly dead draws in a deck full of answers or card draw that needs to respond right away to what the opponent is doing. More Islands is rarely a dead draw because the deck wants to build up to at least 5+ mana as soon as possible to cast bombs later on which help it stabilize in the mid/late-game. Even in the rare corner case of 3 Islands in a row, this is not necessarily bad if I kept a hand with 1-2 bombs and a bunch of answers.



FWIW - your deck has zero chance against Thrun, the Last Troll. At least UW Control has blockers or Batterskull that can delay or neuter the card. In your deck, you're just dead to it.


Au contraire - 3 Dream Tides in sideboard that come in vs. green-creature decks. Also, I can counter the Green Suns Zenith that probably would bring him into play in the first place, because rarely do decks play him as more of a 1-of in the maindeck, if even that at all. I haven't seen that guy played in decks in a while. Most of the BG and GW decklists have moved him out of the maindeck.



This hasn't been true for a number of years. Card Advantage is sweet, but Card Quality and Card Selection offer much better odds of winning games in Legacy. Playing cards like Misdirection and Force of Will actively hinder your goal of Card Advantage.

This just shows how little you understand the concept of this deck. Generating Card Advantage enables you to PLAY cards like Misdirection and Force of Will. The entire reason to build Card Advantage in the first place is to give you MORE answers for opposing threats and to simultaenously allow you to trade early card disadvantage for tempo gains (free counterspells) and then replenish that card disadvantage later on. Card Advantage supports Force of Will and Misdirection whereas in other control decks that don't play draw spells, they are often too resource-intensive in terms of card advantage that never gets replenished.

[DragoFireheart]

Yeah, it's not like 4 Keg / Bomb don't easily blow up 1cc creatures like Nimble Mongoose, right? :rolleyes:

And in the sideboard, there is 3 Dream Tides. Check it out. It's absolutely a house against green creatures.

And again, Misdirection and Divert make this single-handedly worthwhile playing in a meta-game with Abrupt Decay. Didn't I go over this already?

1. Not against RuG. Between Stifle and their counter suite, good luck.

2. You won't always have those cards in hand. When you don't, you'll just lose.

3. Dream Tides? Seriously? a CMC 4 spell that doesn't win you the game?

[DragoFireheart]

Mono Blue Control has:
* Spot creature removal that stalemates the board against aggro (Vedalken Shackles)
...
* No need for Brainstorm because instead of generating card quality the deck generates raw card advantage with Ancestral Vision


I give up. You think Brainstorm is an inferior choice to Visions while you think Shackles is spot removal.

[MGB]

1. Not against RuG. Between Stifle and their counter suite, good luck.

2. You won't always have those cards in hand. When you don't, you'll just lose.

1. The RuG countersuite is heavily predicated upon a.) using mana denial in the form of land destruction on the opponent, which MUC is immune to and b.) using taxing countermagic like Daze and Spell Pierce that is easily played around especially when you can count on all of your lands being in play in every game. After a few turns, the only countermagic that MUC cares about that RUG plays is Force of Will. That is often enough for MUC to force bombs through in the mid-game, especially with its own countermagic backing it up. And postboard, he better have an answer to Chalice of the Void which shuts off like 60% of the deck. And more answers to everything else I still manage to play as well.

2. Six ways to redirect stuff maindeck. And again, if he destroys one Back to Basics with a Decay, guess what? Three more of those, AND he has to deal with a resolved Shackles and/or Keg eventually as well. And by that time, I've probably drawn one of my six redirection spells. Oh, and he better save those Maelstrom Pulses for Jace, because Decay can't target my win condition.

[clavio]

Combo is this deck's BEST matchup.

If that is actually true, the deck would never win any games ever, since it can't win against Tendrils decks or High Tide (barring the unfortunate time spiral into only mana and counters (and even then, the total lack of a clock would give the high tide player plenty of time to build up again)).




22 Island

4 Ancestral Vision

4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
3 Misdirection
4 Chalice of the Void

3 Powder Keg
4 Vendilion Clique

4 Back to Basics

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor



There's no way you've tested this against high tide if you think it has a chance of winning.

[MGB]

If that is actually true, the deck would never win any games ever, since it can't win against Tendrils decks or High Tide (barring the unfortunate time spiral into only mana and counters (and even then, the total lack of a clock would give the high tide player plenty of time to build up again)).



There's no way you've tested this against high tide if you think it has a chance of winning.

I've played the High Tide matchup many times online and offline. Preboard, in G1, it has more of a chance to win than any other combo deck because 4 Shackles and 4 B2B are mostly dead cards, but post-board it dies a flaming wreck to the unstoppable duo of Chalice of the Void and Vendilion Clique on top of all the countermagic and draw spells.

How daft do you have to be to see 4 Vendiion Clique, 4 Counterspell, 4 Spell Pierce, 4 Force of Will, 4 Chalice of the Void, 4 Jace, 3 Misdirection, 4 draw spells, and think that that is not the worst possible decklist a Storm (Belcher, Ad Naus, TES, or High Tide) combo deck could face?

The only thing that comes even close is a Countertop list that boards into Clique.


Again, please do not post groundless accusations before actually looking at decklists and maybe even testing matchups yourself. You're posting like someone who has never played with Countermagic before, let alone Chalice of the Void and Vendilion Clique.

[DragoFireheart]

Again, please do not post groundless accusations before actually looking at decklists and maybe even testing matchups yourself.

You mean the same thing everyone has been saying to you?

[MGB]

Have people lost the ability to understand how matchups work?

I mean, an all-blue deck loaded with counterspells (and misdirection which acts like extra Force of Will), that boards into Chalice of the Void and Vendilion Clique, and we are questioning its ability to win vs. combo decks?

You have to be completely naive about the format if you think a deck with that kind of potential would lose regularly to combo. I mean, I have to seriously question if you've even played a single game of Legacy of any kind.

[DragoFireheart]

Have people lost the ability to understand how matchups work?

I mean, an all-blue deck loaded with counterspells (and misdirection which acts like extra Force of Will), that boards into Chalice of the Void and Vendilion Clique, and we are questioning its ability to win vs. combo decks?

You have to be completely naive about the format if you think a deck with that kind of potential would lose regularly to combo. I mean, I have to seriously question if you've even played a single game of Legacy of any kind.


Storm/Combo decks can easily beat decks with FoW and counters.

Why? Because without a clock, they can just sit back, sculpt their hand, cast discard/Silence/have more counters than you and just go off. I've personally had this happen when I've tested Countertop against Storm decks.

[Arsenal]

I tried to stay away, but couldn't resist...

This deck is just stone cold dead to Sneak & Show; between Leyline of Sanctity (uncounterable, turns off Clique trigger and Jace fateseal), Boseiju (turns off your countermagic completely), Wipe Away to deal with anything that matters (uncounterable/unredirectable), accel to go off turn 1 with counter backup, it's just dead. Granted, many decks fall under this category against Sneak & Show, but those pilots probably aren't saying stuff like "I beat combo all the time, it's my best matchup" either.

Also, there is nothing new or innovative with MGB's build; it's basically the same build people were playing in 2009, just with Misdirection and Divert maindecked. Misdirection and Divert have been around for years and years, all while MUC became a relic of days past. It's counter-intuitive to say "the printing of Abrupt Decay has made MUC viable again thanks to MUC having Misdirection and Divert" when all data says otherwise.

And the fact that this build does well in your local playgroup means nothing. My Junk build has been terrorizing my meta, but I'm not sitting here thinking "oh yeah, my Junk is gonna dominate everything out there".

The concepts of board control, countermagic, and card draw are not new. They have been around since Magic's inception. The cards may have changed, but the concepts are the same as they were back in 1993, so don't be so quick to dismiss people just because they haven't played with the format defining combo of Back to Basics + Powder Keg.

Essentially, this deck cannot go 65% against the field as you claim. All of your theorycrafting and local playtesting doesn't mean that your pet deck is going to be 65% across the board. If your deck was truly 65%, then it would be the most dominant deck in Magic right now and every Pro player would be playing it to win hundreds/thousands of dollars every week.

This is literally the only time I've ever heard someone argue that Abrupt Decay has actually made blue-based Control better than before Abrupt Decay was printed. I'm almost at a loss of words.

[MGB]

Storm/Combo decks can easily beat decks with FoW and counters.

Why? Because without a clock, they can just sit back, sculpt their hand, cast discard/Silence/have more counters than you and just go off. I've personally had this happen when I've tested Countertop against Storm decks.

SEe, you have preconceived notions about decks that you've seen with Force of Will that do not play card draw.

This deck is replenishing its answers with Ancestral Vision and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. If we're both playing Draw-Go, I'm actually drawing extra cards while the Combo opponent is not. Card Advantage 101.

And if I play one of my four Jaces, guess what that +2 ablity lets me do? Yes, that's right, it lets me control my opponent's topdeck and stop him from drawing relevant stuff. And then after five turns, I win the game. You don't need creatures to create a clock.

And then of course, post-board, my Chalice of the Void enables me to preemptively counter nearly 30-40% of my opponent's deck, leaving my other counterspells for the rest of his deck. Sure, he can find a bounce spell, but a.) he NEEDS to find it just to stay competitive and b.) I can just counter the bounce with one of my other counters.

And post-board Clique gives me yet another clock too, obviously.

[clavio]

How daft do you have to be to see 4 Vendiion Clique, 4 Counterspell, 4 Spell Pierce, 4 Force of Will, 4 Chalice of the Void, 4 Jace, 3 Misdirection, 4 draw spells, and think that that is not the worst possible decklist a Storm combo deck could face?


Because I live in reality? High tide doesn't care about Jace's Fateseal. The deck gets stronger as the game goes on (and it will drag on and on). High Tide will have plenty of time to deal with Chalice@1 and then win through counters. High tide can meditate and skip a turn without fear. If the MUC player counters the meditate, that's one less counter High Tide will need to go through when it goes off. A deck like RUG runs less counters, but is an actual challenge to high tide because it has a clock. Against RUG, High Tide only has like 5 turns to sculpt a winning hand that can fight through disruption.

[DragoFireheart]

SEe, you have preconceived notions about decks that you've seen with Force of Will that do not play card draw.

This deck is replenishing its answers with Ancestral Vision and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. If we're both playing Draw-Go, I'm actually drawing extra cards while the Combo opponent is not. Card Advantage 101.


You'll be dead before Visions goes off. Even with the CounterTop lock, Storm players can still sometimes win through it and this is before Decay was printed.

[MGB]

I tried to stay away, but couldn't resist...

This deck is just stone cold dead to Sneak & Show; between Leyline of Sanctity (uncounterable, turns off Clique trigger and Jace fateseal), Boseiju (turns off your countermagic completely), accel to go off turn 1 with counter backup, it's just dead. Granted, many decks fall under this category against Sneak & Show, but those pilots probably aren't saying stuff like "I beat combo all the time, it's my best matchup" either.


Let's see Sneak and Show win the counterwar with MUC when it packs Spell Pierce, Counterspell, Force of Will, and Misdirection/Divert as extra counters.

You're giving an awful lot of 1-of conditional stuff that alot of Sneak'n'Show decks don't even play - I haven't seen Boseiju in ages. Leyline theoretically, but all that does is take away Clique ability (she can still attack for 3 damage each turn) and Jace fateseal (he can still do the ultimate) for the cost of aggressive mulliganing on his part AND 4 dead cards otherwise in maindeck. In fact, I'd welcome my opponent boarding into Leyline of Sanctity! More card advantage for me!

Also, unless he plays Sneak Attack, I can always bounce his guy with Jace.

So say he casts Show and Tell on turn 3, and I counter with Counterspell. He pitches something to Force, I Force back. I say "OK resolves." Oh no! Emrakul in play! Guess what? My turn, with both of our hands depleted of counters, I play Jace, bounce Emrakul, and then proceed to win the game.





Also, there is nothing new or innovative with MGB's build; it's basically the same build people were playing in 2009, just with Misdirection and Divert maindecked. Misdirection and Divert have been around for years and years, all while MUC became a relic of days past. It's counter-intuitive to say "the printing of Abrupt Decay has made MUC viable again thanks to MUC having Misdirection and Divert" when all data says otherwise.


People have constantly tried playing MUC in the past with inferior card choices. Like playing Propaganda at all is a big mistake. Not playing FOUR Jace the Mind Sculptor. Not playing Ancestral Vision. Any MUC decks that do not play at least 4 Vision, 4 Jace, or play inferior cards like Propaganda will undoubtedly fail. The margin is razor-thin with pure control decks.

The data is also not complete in this instance. Nobody has tried playing this particular build at a major tournament.



And the fact that this build does well in your local playgroup means nothing. My Junk build has been terrorizing my meta, but I'm not sitting here thinking "oh yeah, my Junk is gonna dominate everything out there".


It's not about that, I play against tournament-level palyers online and offline. I am an expert in the theory of the game. I know a good deck when I see one or build one or play one. I'm not a casual player. My friends are not casual players.



The concepts of board control, countermagic, and card draw are not new. They have been around since Magic's inception. The cards may have changed, but the concepts are the same as they were back in 1993, so don't be so quick to dismiss people just because they haven't played with the format defining combo of Back to Basics + Powder Keg.


In this particular metagame the deck is well positioned. Metagames shift. Are you familiar at all with the concept of a shifting metagame? A year or two ago, when I saw tons of Goblins and Merfolks, I wouldn't recommend palying MUC to anyone. I stopped playing the deck myself. But recently, I've noticed the precipitous drop in Goblins./Merfolks decks, AND the heavy resurgence of Combo decks AND the subsequent over-reliance on retargetable removal spells like Abrupt Decay, and concluded that this particular build is an elite contender in this particular metagame. That doesn't mean that it will be good forever, when things shift again.



Essentially, this deck cannot go 65% against the field as you claim. All of your theorycrafting and local playtesting doesn't mean that your pet deck is going to be 65% across the board. If your deck was truly 65%, then it would be the most dominant deck in Magic right now and every Pro player would be playing it to win hundreds/thousands of dollars every week.


Certain decks can go 60%+ in CERTAIN METAGAMES if their bad matchups are heavily mitigated.

[MGB]

You'll be dead before Visions goes off. Even with the CounterTop lock, Storm players can still sometimes win through it and this is before Decay was printed.

This is the exact thing that someone who has never played with Ancestral Vision always says.

Your lack of experience playing the card shows through like a beacon of light in a dark tunnel.

[MGB]

Because I live in reality? High tide doesn't care about Jace's Fateseal. The deck gets stronger as the game goes on (and it will drag on and on). High Tide will have plenty of time to deal with Chalice@1 and then win through counters. High tide can meditate and skip a turn without fear. If the MUC player counters the meditate, that's one less counter High Tide will need to go through when it goes off. A deck like RUG runs less counters, but is an actual challenge to high tide because it has a clock. Against RUG, High Tide only has like 5 turns to sculpt a winning hand that can fight through disruption.

You have no clue what you are talking about.

High Tide is not some "magical" deck that has infinite counters and infinite threats and infinite ways around opposing counters. The basic theory of magic holds true here. High Tide is not drawing cards, and I am. I am drawing more answers than he has threats in most situations.

And if I land a Chalice, I counter 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 High Tide, 4 Preordain at the very least. That means more dead draws for him and more card advantage for me AND he can't go off until he bounces the Chalice. Then I just have to counter other things he draws, or play my Clique to send them to the bottom of his library or use Jace fateseal. All the while I am drawing more cards with both Vision and/or Jace while he has to be content with 1 card per turn.

Please test the matchup before talking, please.

[DragoFireheart]

Your lack of experience playing the card shows through like a beacon of light in a dark tunnel.

You can't continue to say "you lack experience" as an excuse (well, you could, but you continue to lose credibility) because it isn't a valid excuse since any John Doe can claim someone lacks experience. You lack any data showing that your claims are valid. Provide proof that your deck performs as you claim or drop it.

[Arsenal]

You can't continue to say "you lack experience" as an excuse (well, you could, but you continue to lose credibility) because it isn't a valid excuse since any John Doe can claim someone lacks experience. You lack any data showing that your claims are valid. Provide proof that your deck performs as you claim or drop it.

I offered to play him at SCG Open Milwaukee this month if he shows.

MGB -

Next time you have an online/irl playtesting session, please record your vids and throw them up on youtube. Just use your cellphone camera if you lack any better recording equipment, I don't care about quality. Just let me see your magical 65% win ratio deck in action.

[MGB]

Because I live in reality? High tide doesn't care about Jace's Fateseal. The deck gets stronger as the game goes on (and it will drag on and on). High Tide will have plenty of time to deal with Chalice@1 and then win through counters. High tide can meditate and skip a turn without fear. If the MUC player counters the meditate, that's one less counter High Tide will need to go through when it goes off. A deck like RUG runs less counters, but is an actual challenge to high tide because it has a clock. Against RUG, High Tide only has like 5 turns to sculpt a winning hand that can fight through disruption.

Also, Clavio, the great thing about Misdirection is that it effectively counters all Turnabout! And it also wins counterwars against Force of Will from the High Tide deck.

[MGB]

I offered to play him at SCG Open Milwaukee this month if he shows.


I'll try to make it up there. I need to find a bit more cash for lodging (hotel, etc) but I hope to make it up.

[clavio]

You have no clue what you are talking about.

High Tide is not some "magical" deck that has infinite counters and infinite threats and infinite ways around opposing counters. The basic theory of magic holds true here. High Tide is not drawing cards, and I am. I am drawing more answers than he has threats in most situations.

And if I land a Chalice, I counter 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 High Tide, 4 Preordain at the very least. That means more dead draws for him and more card advantage for me AND he can't go off until he bounces the Chalice. Then I just have to counter other things he draws, or play my Clique to send them to the bottom of his library or use Jace fateseal. All the while I am drawing more cards with both Vision and/or Jace while he has to be content with 1 card per turn.

Please test the matchup before talking, please.

You literally can't draw an additional card until turn 4. High Tide has probably seen a third of his deck by then. It is the opposite of what you said, the MUC player is watching the High Tide player draw cards (and play shit like merchant scroll). When High Tide goes off, his hand will be crazy good. Yes, chalice is annoying, but wipe away deals with it just fine. Relying on drawing a sideboard card every game 2/3 is bad. The only chance MUC has is hoping the High Tide player has the worst Time Spiral in the universe.

---

MGB has to be Cavius.

[Arsenal]

I'll try to make it up there. I need to find a bit more cash for lodging (hotel, etc) but I hope to make it up.

If you can't, it's cool, money is tight with everyone. However, you most certainly can upload youtube vids of your playtesting sessions for no cost. Like I said, just use your cellphone camera to record the matches if you lack better equipment.

[Koby]

Also, Clavio, the great thing about Misdirection is that it effectively counters all Turnabout! And it also wins counterwars against Force of Will from the High Tide deck.

You lack an understanding of how cards work. The only target selected upon casting is "target player". The mode is selected upon resolution. If you Misdirect the Turnabout to yourself, its caster can pick "tap lands".

[MGB]

You literally can't draw an additional card until turn 4. High Tide has probably seen a third of his deck by then. It is the opposite of what you said, the MUC player is watching the High Tide player draw cards (and play shit like merchant scroll). When High Tide goes off, his hand will be crazy good. Yes, chalice is annoying, but wipe away deals with it just fine. Relying on drawing a sideboard card every game 2/3 is bad. The only chance MUC has is hoping the High Tide player has the worst Time Spiral in the universe.

---

MGB has to be Cavius.

I've actually *tested* the matchup multiple times against many Spiral Tide lists piloted by competent pilots. You have not. The matchup is stacked in MUC's favor. Maybe if you actually played against MUC, and a decent version of a MUC list, you wouldn't be so blatantly wrong about this matchup.

High Tide does not "go off" within the first three turns. No smart combo player will be going off that early against mono blue unless he is playing something that is forced to go off early like Belcher or Rogue Hermit.

What usually happens is that my Counterspell, Spell Pierce, and Force of Will are enough to protect me in the early turns, and then I draw more answers with Vision and/or Jace.

again, Chalice is game-ending against Storm-based combo. You are FORCED to remove it. That means you have to first a.) draw a Cunning Wish and then b.) cast Cunning Wish for Wipe Away. That is not a given by any means, and I have 4 Chalice and counters to back it up and Vendilion Clique to make you put Wipe Away / Cunning Wish on the bottom of your library.

You have to remember that High Tide combo only has a few relevant spells the control palyers needs to counter. Draw spells like Meditate, stuff like Merchant Scroll, and Cunning Wish. Most of the rest I can ignore. I've won games where I let High Tide player play High Tide into stuff, then I just redirected Turnabout and forced him to fizzle.

MUC beats High Tide so easily it's not even funny.

[MGB]

You lack an understanding of how cards work. The only target selected upon casting is "target player". The mode is selected upon resolution. If you Misdirect the Turnabout to yourself, its caster can pick "tap lands".

The point is that he is tapped out, and needs to cast Turnabout to continue his combo turn by untapping his lands. I don't care about Turnabout tapping my lands, in fact, at that stage I'm probably tapped out from an earlier counterwar anyway.

[Koby]

The point is that he is tapped out, and needs to cast Turnabout to continue his combo turn by untapping his lands. I don't care about Turnabout tapping my lands, in fact, at that stage I'm probably tapped out from an earlier counterwar anyway.

Perhaps. Perhaps High Tide player is casting this at EOT to tap you out. Perhaps he has taken so long to go off that he's got more lands in play than you do, and superior quality of counterspells (like Flusterstorm). Who knows. I would bet on High Tide winning in the matchup against your deck.

[MGB]

Ok Clavio let's break down this matchup in more depth.

Here's a typical Spiral Tide list, this one piloted by Colin Chilbert at a recent tournament:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10013&iddeck=72993


Instants [24]
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Meditate
1 Pact of Negation
3 Cunning Wish
3 Flusterstorm
3 Turnabout
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide

Sorceries [15]
3 Preordain
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Ponder
4 Time Spiral

Artifacts [3]
3 Candelabra of Tawnos

Lands [18]
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
12 Island



I'll start from the Artifacts, then move up the list to the top:

- Candelabra of Tawnos is a mana accelerant. It is not a threat that I need to answer directly, but even so, because it is the sole nonland permanent in a deck that has no other, I will probably end up blowing it up with my Powder Keg in G1 if I have spare mana and I draw Keg.

- Time Spiral is a Draw-7. Similar to Ad Nauseum in Ad Nauseam storm lists. I usually have to counter this. High Tide pilots will play this after playing High Tides and cantrips on their combo turn, or if they're desperate they will tap out without much more mana to play this, but those are more rare situations.

- Ponder is a card filtering cantrip and nothing more. I do not have to counter this under any circumstances.

- Merchant Scroll is a tutor that usually fetches a combo piece during the combo turn. I can counter this if I suspect they will be fetching something uncounterable, but most times I will let this resolve and then counter the combo piece that was fetched, OR let them resolve High Tide if they fetched that and counter further combo pieces.

- Preordain is a card filtering cantrip and nothing more. I do not have to counter this under any circumstances.

- High Tide is a combo piece that generates mana for their combo turn. It benefits me almost as much as it benefits the Spiral Tide player. Often times I will let this resolve, turning my own Islands into UU producers which then lets me do stuff like hardcast Force of Will and Misdirection during his combo turn. High Tide itself is not a threat to me as long as I counter the inevitable Time Spiral, or Cunning Wish, or Blue Suns Zenith, or Merchant Scroll for the Brain Freeze.

- Force of Will is one of the few counters I have to worry about during counterwars. But I play more counters than High Tide does, and I can also use Misdirection to back up my counters if he plays this.

- Brainstorm is a card filtering cantrip and nothing more. I do not have to counter this under any circumstances.

- Turnabout is a mana accelerant that untaps his lands in most situations to enable him to play more cantrips and to generate more mana during his combo turn. I usually don't counter this, but if I have Misdirection or Divert and he NEEDS to resolve Turnabout to continue, I will often redirect the target of this spell to me and force him to fizzle and waste his combo turn.

- Flusterstorm is one of the counters that they can use to win counterwars. It is effective vs. MUC, obviously, but also highly situational.

- Cunning Wish is a tutor that fetches combo pieces. I will let this resolve and then counter whatever he fetches, unless I suspect he is fetching Brain Freeze during combo turn or Wipe Away for Chalice and I don't have another Chalice in my hand or on the board.

- Pact of Negation is a singleton in this list to be fetched with Merchant Scroll. The same basic principle here as with Force of Will during counterwars, except that he can lose the game on his next turn if he doesn't successfully combo after casting this.

- Meditate is a draw spell that I usually counter.

- Blue Sun's Zenith is a draw spell / finisher that I have to counter.



So let's see... my only real threats that I have to counter are:

4 Time Spiral (and even if I don't counter it, I can often benefit from it during a combo turn by drawing into more Force of Will / Misdirection and win even if he resolves the Spiral)
1 Meditate
1 Blue Sun's Zenith

Conditional counters:
4 Merchant Scroll (if he is fetching Brain Freeze during combo turn)
4 Cunning Wish (if he is fetching Brain Freeze during combo turn or fetching Wipe Away from sideboard and I don't have more than 1 Chalice in play)


And of course, while the High Tide player does have card filtering, I have more card advantage, and will often draw more of my answers than he will draw his threats during a typical game that lasts past the mid-game.

And post-board, in G2 and G3, I land Chalice and he literally can't filter his deck and can't win (needs to cast High Tide), so I can just sit back, draw cards, play Cliques, and watch him as he hopes to draw Cunning Wish, and then I'll just counter his Cunning Wish or fateseal / Clique it. And the only way he can counter Chalice @ 1 is to play one of his 4 Force of Wills.

[MGB]

Perhaps. Perhaps High Tide player is casting this at EOT to tap you out. Perhaps he has taken so long to go off that he's got more lands in play than you do, and superior quality of counterspells (like Flusterstorm). Who knows. I would bet on High Tide winning in the matchup against your deck.


If he's casting Turnabout at EOT to tap my lands, then I could redirect it to target HIM. Duh? Because the original target is me, I redirect to him. As opposed to a combo-turn Turnabout in which the original target is him. And this is really a rare situation for a high Tide player who usually needs Turnabout in his combo turn. If the game has gone that long in which he can waste Turnabout on me, then I have achieved superior card advantage and have good mana and more counters than him.

Also, out of approximately 40+ 2/3 sb matches played in the past 3 years against High Tide combo, I have lost no more than 5-6 of those matches with MUC.

[Koby]

I'm not interested to know your numbers on playing the matchup, because I don't know who is on the other side of that matchup. Can you demonstrate tournament performance with your list to back up your claims?

[MGB]

I'm not interested to know your numbers on playing the matchup, because I don't know who is on the other side of that matchup. Can you demonstrate tournament performance with your list to back up your claims?

Not any major tournament results with my current list, no. I haven' been to any larger tournament in the past 2 years.

I guess if I dont' have tournament results for a particular list, but want to discuss theory of a certain archetype, I am not allowed to post in here?

[Koby]

Posting theory is fine; but it's only good to a certain point. The deck needs to be demonstrated as competitive for this forum, or have been refined to a well tuned deck. I have my doubts about your list as being well-tuned. Many people are in disagreement with your ideas because they are not well founded with existing theory and practice for Control decks. One of the better ways to turn opinions favorable for your decklist is to demonstrate beyond a shadow of a doubt that your list has a place in competitive Legacy.

[Countertoplol]

Someone go play the matchup in cockatrice or something.

[blablub]

Does anyone have the list of Eric Rill playing Mono Blue Talrand in the SCGinvi ? :)

[menace13]

Does anyone have the list of Eric Rill playing Mono Blue Talrand in the SCGinvi ? :)
No, But it's favored to win. 65% vs everyyyything. Or, so, I've heard.

Edit: I was off-topic. Why Keg over Ratchet Bomb? What situations would you want to see one over the other? Only can think of Jace at 4 ticks- tho it answers other Jaces, and Bk2Basics at 3-which is more common. Bomb also gets Cbalance off of you. Though the 1 turn speed difference may be what gives it the edge.

Back on off topic. I can go through a span of 15 dailies and maintain 70% with a deck. That doesn't mean the deck beats everything 70%. Lot of variables, my skill, opponent's skill, frequency and ratio of draws, Obviously there are some really lopsided match-ups where all things drawn even, they have no chance.

[Arsenal]

Also, out of approximately 40+ 2/3 sb matches played in the past 3 years against High Tide combo, I have lost no more than 5-6 of those matches with MUC.

Those numbers give you a 85% win rate versus High Tide. There have been many things said by you in the thread, but this I truly can't believe. No deck in the history of Magic has ever had a 85% win ratio versus anything.

[DragoFireheart]

Those numbers give you a 85% win rate versus High Tide. There have been many things said by you in the thread, but this I truly can't believe. No deck in the history of Magic has ever had a 85% win ratio versus anything.

Well, maybe Hulk Flash in Legacy or Caw Blade in Standard did (Jace w/ SFM/BS).

[clavio]

Those numbers give you a 85% win rate versus High Tide. There have been many things said by you in the thread, but this I truly can't believe. No deck in the history of Magic has ever had a 85% win ratio versus anything.

High Tide easily has an 85% win rate vs MGB.control

[Arsenal]

Well, maybe Hulk Flash in Legacy or Caw Blade in Standard did (Jace w/ SFM/BS).

If i playedplayed 100 matches, mulls + manascrew/flood alone would probably account for more than 15% loss ratio, and that's not even taking into account what your opponent is playing. No way this deck is 85/15 versus anything, let alone High Tide.

[Lemnear]

How can you constantly claim that MUC beats TES' Silences, Duress and Xantid Swarms pointing at Misdirection and Divert? Your Chalice can be destroyed with Abrupt Decay no matter your Misd. or Divert unless you present another legal target TES won't give against a Deck without discard, so the whole Break-Even with Misd. Or cardadvantage with Divert is nonsense

[lithiux]

I tried to stay away, but couldn't resist...

...don't be so quick to dismiss people just because they haven't played with the format defining combo of Back to Basics + Powder Keg.



Mods please change the thread title to "The Format Defining Combo: Back to Basics + Powder Keg"

[Lemnear]

This deck is replenishing its answers with Ancestral Vision and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. If we're both playing Draw-Go, I'm actually drawing extra cards while the Combo opponent is not. Card Advantage 101.

And if I play one of my four Jaces, guess what that +2 ablity lets me do? Yes, that's right, it lets me control my opponent's topdeck and stop him from drawing relevant stuff. And then after five turns, I win the game. You don't need creatures to create a clock.


During a Combo Players Turn you still have a Maximum of 7 cards in hand. Magic 101.

Jace don't let you Control the draw. If you find a Burning Wish or Infernal onto of a TES opponents Deck and decide to put it to the bottom he can still draw more Tutors, Wishes, Brainstorm, Ponder to Combo off. Same is pretty much true for every other matchup. Don't come up with counterspell again in case TES draws buisness despite your fateseal unless answering the question in my previous post

[DragoFireheart]

High Tide easily has an 85% win rate vs MGB.control

For a second I thought this said "MBC" but then I saw the joke.

[phazonmutant]

I had to check this thread out - I was confused why MUC was getting so much development work recently.

This thread is insane. I feel like I stepped off the boat onto the Shivering Isles. I crossed the river Styx and the tormented souls of the damned are screaming at me, "Brainstorm is tempo loss!"

I think the only rational response to this kind of insanity in the past 7 pages has been from nedleeds:

What Tempo are you building in a deck with no threat until like turn 5? You are clearly trolling me and I've bitten on like Oprah on a waffle. I'm out.

[The Treefolk Master]

Also, this:

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_mono_blue_talrand_wi.html

[DragoFireheart]

Also, this:

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_mono_blue_talrand_wi.html

Now that's a MUC deck that could work.

Didn't even know Curfew existed.

http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Curfew

Also, out of stock LOL!

[ThediscoPower]

Also, this:

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_mono_blue_talrand_wi.html

OMG That list actually seems sweet!!!! I must try out a version of it!!!! My question tho, would jace be a good addition to this kind of deck? I feel like he can add another nice angle of attack. That aside, I like the list a lot

[HokusSchmokus]

Just wanted to say that I ran MGBs list against High Tide 20 Times last night, half of it pre- half of it postboard.
I won 1 game pre and 3 games postboard. Best moment: when my opponent milled me with Brainfreeze through Chalice at 1 and 2. It was possible because this deck doesn't have a clock, as others stated several times. I had 7 turns of Jacing, he just played Island after Island and suddenly I was dead. Counters don't do shit at this stage btw, except adding to storm count.
So while I am certainly not the best Control player, I found myself quite competent with control decks(and MUC in particular)in the past. This leads me to believe that your testing partner is just awful.(@MGB)

[Lemnear]

Just wanted to say that I ran MGBs list against High Tide 20 Times last night, half of it pre- half of it postboard.
I won 1 game pre and 3 games postboard. Best moment: when my opponent milled me with Brainfreeze through Chalice at 1 and 2. It was possible because this deck doesn't have a clock, as others stated several times. I had 7 turns of Jacing, he just played Island after Island and suddenly I was dead. Counters don't do shit at this stage btw, except adding to storm count.
So while I am certainly not the best Control player, I found myself quite competent with control decks(and MUC in particular)in the past. This leads me to believe that your testing partner is just awful.(@MGB)

I had even worse results testing it Seven Games against J.R.'s 12-post in a team session. I still have the feeling he tests against himself on MWS or Cockatrice, which is flawed by nature

[DragoFireheart]

OMG That list actually seems sweet!!!! I must try out a version of it!!!! My question tho, would jace be a good addition to this kind of deck? I feel like he can add another nice angle of attack. That aside, I like the list a lot

I think the reason he did not add JTMS is he probably doesn't think he can protect him in his deck. With the creatures he doesn't have to worry about them being attacked and curfew can be used to protect them.

[ThediscoPower]

I think the reason he did not add JTMS is he probably doesn't think he can protect him in his deck. With the creatures he doesn't have to worry about them being attacked and curfew can be used to protect them.

mmmm makes sense actually. I think imma try it out for sure. The deck just looks so sweet. Probably put a jace in, if I can't find my shackles in time, so I can play the deck in my local tournament.

[bruizar]

needs more abjure

[Iron Buddha]

Not that I think that this is any better than U/W, but the thread is so dead, and this version actually works pretty good: The design is well balanced, it has it all, loads of countermagic, proactive tools, efficient win-cons, and card advantage engines.

// 24
4 Mishra's Factory (speed up the clock)
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
14 island

// 6
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Nevinyrral's Disk (you can bounce the hell out of it, but sometimes things don't go the way they are supposed to, so the oh shit button can put things right again)

// 11
4 Brainstorm
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Fact or Fiction (Jace No. 5-6 in terms of carddraw)
1 Venser, Shaper Savant (Jace No. 5 in terms of tempo play: bounce + soaking up dmg)

// 5
3 Vendilion Clique (clock)
2 Snapcaster Mage (extended counterspell and bounce power + clock)

// my standard early-game package: 14
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Force Spike (much better than Spell Pierce against creature decks; „ok“ against combo, since you transition into Counterspell/FoW/Clique/etc.)
2 Echoing Truth

SB:
4 Flusterstorm
4 Back to Basics
1 Vedalken Shackles
6 Mountain

[Megadeus]

Not that I think that this is any better than U/W, but the thread is so dead, and this version actually works pretty good: The design is well balanced, it has it all, loads of countermagic, proactive tools, efficient win-cons, and card advantage engines.

// 24
4 Mishra's Factory (speed up the clock)
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
14 island

// 6
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Nevinyrral's Disk (you can bounce the hell out of it, but sometimes things don't go the way they are supposed to, so the oh shit button can put things right again)

// 11
4 Brainstorm
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Fact or Fiction (Jace No. 5-6 in terms of carddraw)
1 Venser, Shaper Savant (Jace No. 5 in terms of tempo play: bounce + soaking up dmg)

// 5
3 Vendilion Clique (clock)
2 Snapcaster Mage (extended counterspell and bounce power + clock)

// my standard early-game package: 14
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Force Spike (much better than Spell Pierce against creature decks; „ok“ against combo, since you transition into Counterspell/FoW/Clique/etc.)
2 Echoing Truth

SB:
4 Flusterstorm
4 Back to Basics
1 Vedalken Shackles
6 Mountain

What is this I dont even... I cant even tell if troll or not either.

[Iron Buddha]

This is not a troll - I'm not trolling.

What makes you think that this is a troll?
Disk? Maybe this deck doesn't need 3 board sweeper, but I think running 0 is a mistake, and Disk is the best available for MUC.
Force Spike? You can run Spell Snare/Rachtet Bomb. But they actually aren't much of an improvement in most matchups regarding the earlygame (quite the contrary)
Mishra's Factory? This was a last second inclusion, because I fear that my clock is not good enough.

Maybe -3 Shackles, +3 Treachery to play around Abrupt Decay, just a thought.


EDIT: I think I should make room for the full playset Snapcaster Mage, so I can cut the Factories, maybe:
+2 SCM, -1 FoF, -1 Disk
-4 Factory, +4 Island

[Megadeus]

Well the 6 mountains seems a bit out of place

Edit: Ive been thinking of a Ug MUC deck (the name is misleading a bit) with Goyfs and maybe some Talrands. Seems fun at least.

[baghdadbob]

Well the 6 mountains seems a bit out of place

Edit: Ive been thinking of a Ug MUC deck (the name is misleading a bit) with Goyfs and maybe some Talrands. Seems fun at least.

I think it would be fun because you could make it more aggro-ish with cards like Goyf, Trygon Predator, Edric, hell maybe even find a place for Lorescale Coatl. The deck i've been rocking on MWS is sort of an aggro-ish approach to MUC. Played a few games against Pox, White Stax, and Stoneblade today. The only deck that I lost to was stoneblade. Here's the list. Suggestions welcome.

Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Morphling
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Kirra, Great Glass Spinner
1 Talrand, Sky Summoner
2 Sower of Temptation

Instant/Sorceries
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Leak
2 Repeal
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ponder

Enchantments/Artifacts
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Back to Basics
1 Control Magic

Jace the Mind Sculptors
1 Jace the Mind Sculptor

Land
16 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand

SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Back to Basics
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 4 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast

I really wish I could fit some snapcasters in here. In fact I may drop Jace and 1 other thing for 2x snapcasters. I would also like the kick Kirra up to a 2 count because she has just been a friggin house.

[Iron Buddha]

The mountains were supposed to be placeholders, because I haven't put much thought into the SB...

I like the idea of a more tempoish approach. If you look closely on my list, you see that I also kind of went that direction: 4 SCM, 3 Clique, 1 Venser. I would love to push this even further.

Talrand. I like him, but he is definitely not good enough in your list, especially when compared to Jace TMS, who is actually one of the best tempo cards you can have (thanks to his bounce ability)

Morphling sucks, they killed him with the rules change.

Repeal. This card is not good. I mean it is nice to bounce delvers and such as, but bouncing Tarmogoyf already cost 3, and drawing a card is overrated, because the cardquality by drawing a single card really pales when compared to Jace and Brainstorm. Doesn't work with SCM so well, either. Echoing Truth is the best bounce. I always run at least 2 of those. In short: Repeal costs to much, repeal is ineffective.

Back to Basics. I don't like it as a one of. I think you should run 3-4 or 0. My reasoning is that the later it hits play, the more it loses of its effectiveness in terms of being a tempo play. Running 1x BtB only makes sense if your plan is to use it to deal with Manlands, etc.

Sower of Temptation. Too much a liability. Gets around Abrupt, but runs straight into Punishing Fire and Lightning Bolt. He is powerful if he sticks, but I would rather play something (much) less powerful, but something that is safer to play like Venser (not to speak of Jace TMS). MUC has acces to so many powerful cards, that you can easily skip this one (e,g Jace TMS, FoF, Disk, Shackles, SCM, Treachery, and a few more)

Kira. Kira is very good (with Sower in play), but if the threat is not worth proctecting (like SCM, Venser) kira is also not worth it. Kira also suffers the being small syndrom. If your on topdeck mode, your opponent draws a Tarmogoyf and you draw a Kira, then you lose; I know a lot of cards have this problem (Delver, Clique) but you should not have too many.

Vendilion Clique: This card is so good. I always start with 3, not 2 when building a control deck.

So now the most important question: How good is Delver of Secrets in (Tempo) MUC?
I'm not sure on this one, but my gut says he is not so good.
1. You definitely want to scale up to 4c to have acces to Jace and friends. So, unlike Tempo Thresh, you actually have the mana to play something else.
As soon as you hit your third land, Vendilion Clique is 100% superior, and I think many others are so as well like SCM.
2. You don't even run 4 Ponder to flip him consistently.

[Darkenslight]

Hrm...could a theoretical Denial plan work? I mean, you're one color, so that reduces the demand on those requirements.

Would this list be viable?

9 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland

4 Stifle
4 Mana Leak
4 Force of Will
4 Wipe Away
4 Cyclonic Rift
4 Impulse
(4 Brainstorm)
3 Interdict

4 Talrand, Sky Summoner
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SB:

4 Surgical Extraction
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Extract
3 Echoing Truth

Card Selection

Interdict - Stops not only Fetchlands, but also stops your nonbasics getting Wasted (not that they'd be on the field for that long anyway.) as well as combo-tastic win-conditions, such as all the draw/lifegain in TinFins, the search from Forgemaster, Vial and Batterskull activations etc. And it cantrips!

Impulse over BS - this is a tough one. I think that Impulse is stronger, but it's really hard to overlook BS for raw power. This is definitely something that needs further testing to see if I'm insane.

the 2/2 'walker split' - I also think that this is correct, but it may also be better as being a 3/1 Jace:Tamiyo ratio.

A full eight LD cards - Combined with Stifle/Interdict, a hard LD package seems like it's going to be extremely useful in the current metagame.

Mana Leak over Daze and Force Spike - the taxing effect to-mana ratio seems perfect. Could possibly be MisD, although that might be too much card-disadvantage.

Absence of Chrome Mox - Could the Mox be useful here for allowing first turn Interdict?

[kiblast]

Why don't you cut Talrand for something useful like Snapcaster?
Do you believe Talrand it's worth four maindeck slots? Good luck with your 2 Talrand 2 random planeswalker + 3 cards hands without brainstorm.
Impulse seems weaker than Bs.Your list is full of 4ofs. What are you exactly going to dig for?

[Darkenslight]

Why don't you cut Talrand for something useful like Snapcaster?
Do you believe Talrand it's worth four maindeck slots? Good luck with your 2 Talrand 2 random planeswalker + 3 cards hands without brainstorm.
Impulse seems weaker than Bs.Your list is full of 4ofs. What are you exactly going to dig for?

1) Talrand is in because, aside from your wincons, every spell triggers him. This is relevant against aggro decks.
2) Actually, I do. Because he's another wincon.
3) That said, however, Tiago is a good card all his own, and allows you to buyback previously used spells.

Sooo...

it may be possible to remove two Talrand, a Cyclonic and a Wipe Away for four SCM.

[Gedaco]

Creatures: (8)
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Talrand, Sky Summoner
3 Vendilion Clique

Lands: (22)
15 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn

Spells (30)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Back to Basics
3 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
3 Curfew
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Devastation Tide
2 Ponder

Sideboard:
1 Culling Scales
2 Pithing Needle
1 Spellskite
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Back to Basics
2 Energy Field
1 Fact or Fiction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Devastation Tide
1 Cavern of Souls


Sooooo, I've been testing this recently and I really believe this should be the way MUC needs to go on right now.
Thoughts on maindeck:
> Talrand has been amazing
> 15 Islands sometimes feels like too much. Any thoughts? 4x Wasteland maybe? Cavern? Opinions plz :)
> Top + D. Tide amazing too!

About sideboard:
> Culling Scales is awesome and is terrible. How do you guys feel with it?
> Wurmcoil has done good things for me. 1 copy has been fine.
> Fact of Fictions seems very random. Any subs?

Thanks!

[Gedaco]

Creatures: [2]
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Vendilion Clique

Lands: [24]
1 Academy Ruins
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
13 Island

Other Spells: [34]
2 Cryptic Command
2 Flusterstorm
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Vedalken Shackles
4 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard:
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Firespout
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormods Crypt
2 Back to Basics


I saw another interesting list. I like the Explosives and the Ancestral Vision. Which line should I go? Can I mix lists? Or maybe go another route on Dreadnought, Stifle and Charm,...?
Appreciate any comments and thoughts :)

[Kagehisa]

4 Force of Will

3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Curfew

3 Devastation Tide

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Energy Field
4 Counterbalance
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Vendilion Clique

3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
16 Island

I tried to make Devastation works in MUC. Every permanent in the list must be friend with Devastation Tide. The exception is Counterbalance, but it costs 2 and can be replayed easily after a Tide. Snapcaster Mage and Vendilion Clique have flash and enter-the-battlefield-effect. Top is amazing with Tide to trigger Miracle (at instant speed) or just by returnin on top of your library before Tide resolves. Energy Field won't go to the graveyard when Tide resolves because it is in your hand now and is cheap to (re)play. Remember that Tide at instant speed can save your Field and Counterbalance.

Snapcaster Mage and Energy Field : When you have Field in play, you still counter spell by two ways WITHOUT losing Field : Counterbalance if it is in play or Snapcaster Mage in hand with a counter (Spell Pierce) in the graveyard. I want to add Counterspell to the list by the way. (sometimes before dropping a Field, it is preferable to cast it with a counter in the graveyard or a counterbalance out.) The fashbacked counter will be exiled and won't trigger Field. Snapcaster Mage let you Brainstorm or bounce creature with Curfew without triggering Field the same way.

Energy Field buys lot of time but very vulnerable to discard, unfortunately.

I don't add Jace, the Mind Sculptor because of Tide and he is too hard to protect. Unfortunately, Tide does protect him but reset him too. Vendilion Clique is the finisher here.

Missing cards I want to add but don't know what to remove for or change : Vedalken Shackles, Counterspell or Redirect, Spell Snare, Back to Basics, Fact or Fiction (for Snapcaster Mage), Impulse (with Snapcaster Mage, dig 8 cards !), Ancestral Vision (suspend don't trigger Field ;) wait for resolution), Propaganda, Misdirection et cetera.

How to play : Stall the game with everything : Force of will, Curfew, Spell Pierce, Energy Field, Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique, dig for answer with Top and Brainstorm until Devastation Tide resolve and drop your CounterTop lock and replay your Vendilion Clique for the kill under the protection of CounterTop. You can Tide many times before having total control of the board but all your deck is friend with Tide :) (aka no Jace, no B2B XD)

[Lemnear]

The discard-step kills all your ideas of Energy Field my friend

[DragoFireheart]

The discard-step kills all your ideas of Energy Field my friend

He could splash white for Rest in Peace.

Course, if he did that he could put in mass removal like Terminus. And if he did that, he may as well go Miracle Control.

[Lemnear]

He could splash white for Rest in Peace.

Course, if he did that he could put in mass removal like Terminus. And if he did that, he may as well go Miracle Control.

Yep, the way of natural evolution to fight a colors weaknesses.

[Kagehisa]

The discard-step kills all your ideas of Energy Field my friend

The deck plays a lot of permanents : 22 lands (16 Island), 16 non-Energy Field permanents and 3 Devastation Tide (41 cards). The Island are hard to kill (sure Sinkhole exists), Top is hard to kill and dig for land, Counterbalance is supposed to lock. It is true that the creatures when they get killed break Field, which is annoying, but I'm considering to put one Riptide Laboratory in the side against non-Wasteland aggro deck lol and because Wasteland is a probleme too, Pithing Needle might be considered too.

I mean there're enough cards to play without breaking Field for the Discard-step to be a probleme. If ever, I have 7+ cards in my hand and Energy Field in play, I stalled the game enough, Energy Field has done its job.

Plus, I would like to add this play : Energy Field in play and Energy play in hand. You cast everything you need to cast or crack your fetchlands (for example, Brainstorm + crack fetchland). It breaks Field and you play the 2nd Field. Energy Field is friend with Energy Field.

If ever you meant that discard-step after a Tide bounced all my non-permanent back is a probleme, it is not : All the board is clean. I have a full turn to recast my Energy Field because, unless my opponent has creature with Haste or Flash, I won't be attacked during my opponent's next turn then I won't drop right now Field. I can wait a full turn. I can crack my fetchlands and all. In the case of a Tide casted during opponent turn, it is ok too, I have no discard-step in his turn lol

The discard-step is annonying if I draw too many of the 4 Force of Will, 3 Spell Pierce, 4 Brainstorm, 4 Curfew of the deck. The list is far from good I feel Shackles are missing, etc.

Maybe I'm missing something but I can't believe that the discard-step is a complete Energy Field killer, mein Freund ;) Discard itself is a probleme, the discard-step not really.

(Berlin is amazing and cheaper than München btw lol the train station is amazing ! The Chinese Tower is cool lol xD)

[Iron Buddha]

What do you think of Condescend? (I know most shitty artwork ever)

[The Treefolk Master]

What do you think of Condescend? (I know most shitty artwork ever)

Way too expensive.

[fuga]

Hi guys, what do you think about the result of that list? http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/56667

[Captain Hammer]

Hi guys,

Below is the list that I'm currently running, I would really appreciate your feedback or any needed changes or problems that you see. Thank you.

22 Island
2 Wasteland
4 Ancestral Visions
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Rachet Bomb
4 Veldalken Shackles
4 Propanganda
4 Back to Basics
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Sower of Temptation

[Illusions]

Creatures: (8)
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Talrand, Sky Summoner
3 Vendilion Clique

Lands: (22)
15 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn

Spells (30)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Back to Basics
3 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
3 Curfew
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Devastation Tide
2 Ponder

Sideboard:
1 Culling Scales
2 Pithing Needle
1 Spellskite
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Back to Basics
2 Energy Field
1 Fact or Fiction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Devastation Tide
1 Cavern of Souls


Sooooo, I've been testing this recently and I really believe this should be the way MUC needs to go on right now.
Thoughts on maindeck:
> Talrand has been amazing
> 15 Islands sometimes feels like too much. Any thoughts? 4x Wasteland maybe? Cavern? Opinions plz :)
> Top + D. Tide amazing too!

About sideboard:
> Culling Scales is awesome and is terrible. How do you guys feel with it?
> Wurmcoil has done good things for me. 1 copy has been fine.
> Fact of Fictions seems very random. Any subs?

Thanks!

This seems like the start of a decent list, but I don't think talrand is doing anything for you. I would cut him and vendilion clique (which is, imo, overrated), and rock full playsets of snapcaster mage, and true-name nemesis. I think you probably want 23 lands, though 22 might be doable. You should run either mishra's factory (maybe 2 of), mutavault, faerie conclave and wasteland (3-4), and add riptide laboratory (1-2) so you can bounce your snapcasters for extra shenanigans (should work well with curfew). Jitte and shackles probably aren't doing much. You have no way of tutoring jitte, and your list is very creature light, so I don't see the point, and shackles hasn't been good since abrupt decay was printed. Cut them, maybe the two ponders as well (you have enough card selection), and maybe add a set of boomerang to help you slow your opponent down in the early game. For that matter, you might even be able to shave a top, though that's entirely up to you.

Since they can only play one land per turn, you should be able to slow them down pretty heavily between boomerang, back to basics, and wasteland, and boomerang will also let you bounce their planeswalkers and threats, giving you time to develop your own board. Doing this might even open up the chance to run daze, though I'm not sure that's such a great idea in this type of shell. Spell snare is great, and you might want 1 or 2 more counterspell, though I'm not entirely sure what you'd cut. Maybe spell pierce? I think it's better in tempo builds, and tends to shine more against removal than anything else; you aren't particularly worried about removal, and should be more focused on keeping your opponent's board empty. Counterspell and spell snare are probably better in outright control builds.

I think if you made these changes, the list would be quite strong. With a couple of manlands and TNN you'd have good inevitability, along with snapcaster for a bit of additional back up. Just make sure you keep deathrite shaman off the field, and try set up your lock early.

Cheers!

EDIT: maybe back to basics with utility lands isn't such a great idea... maybe replace it with something else? Crucible might be an idea, since you can then wasteland lock them, and have fetches on demand to shuffle away the top of your library. Also, add a few more fetches, since you're running brainstorm, jace, and top. I would run at least 8 fetches minimum with this mana base, maybe 10.

[serendib]

This seems like the start of a decent list, but I don't think talrand is doing anything for you. I would cut him and vendilion clique (which is, imo, overrated), and rock full playsets of snapcaster mage, and true-name nemesis. I think you probably want 23 lands, though 22 might be doable. You should run either mishra's factory (maybe 2 of), mutavault, faerie conclave and wasteland (3-4), and add riptide laboratory (1-2) so you can bounce your snapcasters for extra shenanigans (should work well with curfew). Jitte and shackles probably aren't doing much. You have no way of tutoring jitte, and your list is very creature light, so I don't see the point, and shackles hasn't been good since abrupt decay was printed. Cut them, maybe the two ponders as well (you have enough card selection), and maybe add a set of boomerang to help you slow your opponent down in the early game. For that matter, you might even be able to shave a top, though that's entirely up to you.

Since they can only play one land per turn, you should be able to slow them down pretty heavily between boomerang, back to basics, and wasteland, and boomerang will also let you bounce their planeswalkers and threats, giving you time to develop your own board. Doing this might even open up the chance to run daze, though I'm not sure that's such a great idea in this type of shell. Spell snare is great, and you might want 1 or 2 more counterspell, though I'm not entirely sure what you'd cut. Maybe spell pierce? I think it's better in tempo builds, and tends to shine more against removal than anything else; you aren't particularly worried about removal, and should be more focused on keeping your opponent's board empty. Counterspell and spell snare are probably better in outright control builds.

I think if you made these changes, the list would be quite strong. With a couple of manlands and TNN you'd have good inevitability, along with snapcaster for a bit of additional back up. Just make sure you keep deathrite shaman off the field, and try set up your lock early.

Cheers!

EDIT: maybe back to basics with utility lands isn't such a great idea... maybe replace it with something else? Crucible might be an idea, since you can then wasteland lock them, and have fetches on demand to shuffle away the top of your library. Also, add a few more fetches, since you're running brainstorm, jace, and top. I would run at least 8 fetches minimum with this mana base, maybe 10.

... and please ... use counterspell

[Tea]

I just wanted to say that,...Aetherling is the best finisher this deck has ever seen. A dedicated win-condition sounds shit and outdated, but the concept of a finisher is actually totally viable if a card exits that fits the criteria. Compared to the old Morphling, Aetherling is not as good on the defense (cannot block flying creatures, evades combat instead of facing them, costs one more mana) but he is much better at steamrolling through any inevitability shit control players might come up with today (e.g. Punishing Fires, Loam, Terminus). Knowing that, we can build the deck accordingly and I can attest to you that Aetherling solves the biggest problem that MUC has: winning the game!!! MUC has all the tools not to die but going aggro was really painful to accomplish. I suggest 2x copies. Maybe 1x is enough, but 2x is safer.

[The Treefolk Master]

I just wanted to say that,...Aetherling is the best finisher this deck has ever seen. A dedicated win-condition sounds shit and outdated, but the concept of a finisher is actually totally viable if a card exits that fits the criteria. Compared to the old Morphling, Aetherling is not as good on the defense (cannot block flying creatures, evades combat instead of facing them, costs one more mana) but he is much better at steamrolling through any inevitability shit control players might come up with today (e.g. Punishing Fires, Loam, Terminus). Knowing that, we can build the deck accordingly and I can attest to you that Aetherling solves the biggest problem that MUC has: winning the game!!! MUC has all the tools not to die but going aggro was really painful to accomplish. I suggest 2x copies. Maybe 1x is enough, but 2x is safer.

Do you have a theoretical list? MUC was my first Legacy deck so it'll always be my pet deck, but after trying several versions without any decent success rate I can't help it but feel sceptical; although I'll be the first person to sleeve it up and give it a go.

With the printing of Abrupt Decay, Back to Basics isn't as reliable as before, so stopping Punishing Fire has become a pain. Having a win condition that can race the Fire combo is probably a good thing.

[Tea]

yes sure, this is where I'm right now.

lands: 23
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Plain
1 Swamp
14 Island

draw: 8
4 Brainstorm
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (formerly Fact or Fiction)

survival: 20
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Engineered Explosives (EE makes MUC viable)
4 Force Spike (whatever card gives me the best early-game, Repeal is great too, but does nothing against combo)
4 Vendilion Clique (Clique is godly and winning in time is important)

slow: 9
3 Nevinyrral's Disk (Disk is a concession to TNN; I've actually run 3 BtB before until TNN happened)
3 Vedalken Shackles (winning in time is important in tournament play, so I would not go down on these)
2 Aetherling
1 Back to Basics (could be another counterspell or Ponder, but I think you should have 3 BtB in your 75)

SB:
2 Back to Basics
4 Spell Pierce
4 Judge's Familiar (beats up Xantid Swarm)
x Powder Keg

[kaminamina]

I just wanted to say that,...Aetherling is the best finisher this deck has ever seen. A dedicated win-condition sounds shit and outdated, but the concept of a finisher is actually totally viable if a card exits that fits the criteria. Compared to the old Morphling, Aetherling is not as good on the defense (cannot block flying creatures, evades combat instead of facing them, costs one more mana) but he is much better at steamrolling through any inevitability shit control players might come up with today (e.g. Punishing Fires, Loam, Terminus). Knowing that, we can build the deck accordingly and I can attest to you that Aetherling solves the biggest problem that MUC has: winning the game!!! MUC has all the tools not to die but going aggro was really painful to accomplish. I suggest 2x copies. Maybe 1x is enough, but 2x is safer.

I disagree entirely. JTMS is the best finisher the deck has ever seen, and TNN is a close second.

[Darkenslight]

I disagree entirely. JTMS is the best finisher the deck has ever seen, and TNN is a close second.

To be fair, there aren't that many cards that deal with AEtherling, provided you can leave sufficient mana open - Deluge doesn't, Swords doesn't, even Terminus doesn't. The only cards that might be able to deal with it are the Split Second cards, and it would take two of them, which is mana your opponent isn't spending on harrassing you out of the game.

[trollking21]

To be fair, there aren't that many cards that deal with AEtherling, provided you can leave sufficient mana open - Deluge doesn't, Swords doesn't, even Terminus doesn't. The only cards that might be able to deal with it are the Split Second cards, and it would take two of them, which is mana your opponent isn't spending on harrassing you out of the game.

But 7 mana seems like a lot (he only costs 6 but you'll never cast him for that) and getting to 6-7 mana seems way worse then casting TNN and letting him beat for 3 a turn.

[Tea]

Black (and White) have plenty of removal that can deal with TNN.

Jace is much better in Miracle and BUG control than it is in MUC, because the removal suite is so much better.

Aetherling is just there to win control matchups like Miracle, Punishing Fires, Lilliana, or Pernicious Deed. It is the luxury of blue that a card that is stuck in hand doesn't cause any problems.

[trollking21]

Black (and White) have plenty of removal that can deal with TNN.

Jace is much better in Miracle and BUG control than it is in MUC, because the removal suite is so much better.

Aetherling is just there to win control matchups like Miracle, Punishing Fires, Lilliana, or Pernicious Deed. It is the luxury of blue that a card that is stuck in hand doesn't cause any problems.

The difference is that jace does something along the way, if you need to you can unsummon goyf eat a delver attack and live to see another day. that seems like a reasonable turn 4, where aetherling doesn't do anything til earliest turn 7 but more likely turn 10+ because you most likely wont hit every land drop or you may want to protect him from double swords to plowshares. I don't think a deck can have a card that takes that long to get active, you can test it but i imagine it will just be force fodder.

[Darkenslight]

The difference is that jace does something along the way, if you need to you can unsummon goyf eat a delver attack and live to see another day. that seems like a reasonable turn 4, where aetherling doesn't do anything til earliest turn 7 but more likely turn 10+ because you most likely wont hit every land drop or you may want to protect him from double swords to plowshares. I don't think a deck can have a card that takes that long to get active, you can test it but i imagine it will just be force fodder.

You're assuming that players won't run both.

[Tea]

Maybe yeah 1x Aetherling is probably enough.

Aetherling is force fodder most of the time, but if you're up against control, it is not force fodder, but a very nice silver-bullet. In my opinion we better have too many win-cons than too few.

[trollking21]

You're assuming that players won't run both.

I'm assuming you keep adding jace's every time you want aetherling. So unless you hit 4 jace plus aetherling then yes I'm assuming you don't run both. Are you slamming in 4 copies of jace and some number of aetherling? Do you have a deck list in mind?

[Tea]

I'm assuming you keep adding jace's every time you want aetherling. So unless you hit 4 jace plus aetherling then yes I'm assuming you don't run both. Are you slamming in 4 copies of jace and some number of aetherling? Do you have a deck list in mind?

Yes, my list a page back has 4 Jaces and 2 Aetherling. You can speed the deck up by cutting one Aetherling or BtB, but it is already reasonably well prepared against early aggro rushes.

[Erdvermampfa]

what about splashing white to gain access to better removal cards (terminus)?

[trollking21]

Yes, my list a page back has 4 Jaces and 2 Aetherling. You can speed the deck up by cutting one Aetherling or BtB, but it is already reasonably well prepared against early aggro rushes.

You have 4 counterspell 4 force spike 4 jace 2 aetherling 3 disks.
You take a long long time to get going, and I practiced a few hands with the deck and so many of the hands are like
Force spike, counterspell, nev disk, counterspell, 3 land.
Or jace, aetherling, back to basics force spike 3 land.
You just have a hard time to anything dropping turn 1 threats. Out of the 25 or so hand probably 20 were pretty awkward where you have counterspells and nothing to do. Also what happens if a deck plays turn 1 vial or cavern? Do you just hope to pull disk or get shackles online quickly enough.
TNN seems better then aetherling because if they go delver, into goyf he can save you till other things get online. Also few decks can answer him in the main deck, as well as he kills jace's and the occasional tezz.

Btw what makes running 4 counterspell 4 force spike 4 force better then just running counterbalance top? Keeping force in the deck. Top helps you by letting you find everything and it dodges disk pretty a and hopefully you can dodge blowing up counterbalance with a disk.
Excuse the grammatical errors I'm on my phone

[Tea]

what about splashing white to gain access to better removal cards (terminus)?
You're missing the point of MUC. StP, Terminus, and Supreme Verdict aren't better than EE, Counterspell, and Vedalken Shackles. White is purely anti-creature, whereas MUC is more of a universal control deck, that is supposed to have a better game against combo and control, hence I run Force Spike and not Powder Keg/Repeal.


You have 4 counterspell 4 force spike 4 jace 2 aetherling 3 disks.
You take a long long time to get going, and I practiced a few hands with the deck and so many of the hands are like
Force spike, counterspell, nev disk, counterspell, 3 land.
Or jace, aetherling, back to basics force spike 3 land.
You just have a hard time to anything dropping turn 1 threats. Out of the 25 or so hand probably 20 were pretty awkward where you have counterspells and nothing to do. Also what happens if a deck plays turn 1 vial or cavern? Do you just hope to pull disk or get shackles online quickly enough.
TNN seems better then aetherling because if they go delver, into goyf he can save you till other things get online. Also few decks can answer him in the main deck, as well as he kills jace's and the occasional tezz.

Btw what makes running 4 counterspell 4 force spike 4 force better then just running counterbalance top? Keeping force in the deck. Top helps you by letting you find everything and it dodges disk pretty a and hopefully you can dodge blowing up counterbalance with a disk.
Excuse the grammatical errors I'm on my phoneMaybe you were just unlucky? EE is the card that can deal with Vial and Delver. I've found it very hard to push the early-game even further, without damaging my lategame.

[MGB]

- AEtherling is garbage. Legacy is too fast a format to wait until 7 mana is open before playing a finisher in a control deck. All this deck needs as a finisher is 4 Jace. Why over think it? Jace is the best blue permanent ever printed and the best control finisher ever printed. You don't need to clog up valuable slots in this deck with inefficient 6-7 mana beaters.

- The reason you play this deck at all in Legacy is the ability to profitably play 4 Back to Basics MD. You need to play them MD and if you're worried about Abrupt Decay, I would recommend playing Misdirection and even some Divert MD. These two are good against discard and in counter wars too. And even if they kill B2B with Decay, it's still just a 1-for-1 trade.

- This deck needs 4 draw spells in addition to Jace. Brainstorm is a filter and not a draw spell. This deck needs 4 copies of one of the following, in order of preference: Ancestral Vision, Standstill, Thirst for Knowledge, or Think Twice. This deck doesn't work without card advantage. Trading 1-for-1 with counterspells needs lots of card draw to work.

[Claymore]

What about Noetic Scales? It has been floated as an idea in Pox but they might not run enough mana (considering Smallpox, Wasteland) to consistently get it down. Scales is AD proof and it forces decks to slowly stock their hand so they can build a buffer so they can land one creature...and I think that type of situation definitely favors MUC.

[Jofiel]

I have some different idea for MUC...
What do You think about this?
(it's variation of U/R Delever")

Without Jace it gains more fun, yap :p

Lands:
13 x Island (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Island)
4 x Polluted Delta (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Polluted%20Delta)
1 x Riptide Laboratory (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Riptide%20Laboratory)

Creatures:
4 x Delver of Secrets (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Delver%20of%20Secrets)
3 x Drifter il-Dal (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Drifter%20il-Dal) (Instead of Grim Lavamancer)
3 x Snapcaster Mage (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Snapcaster%20Mage)
2 x Patron Wizard (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Patron%20Wizard) (eventualy Vendilion Clique (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Vendilion%20Clique))

Enchantments & Artifacts:
4 x Unstable Mutation (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Unstable%20Mutation) (Instead of Lightning Bolt)
1 x Feldon's Cane (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Feldon%27s%20Cane)

Draw:
4 x Brainstorm (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Brainstorm)
3 x Ponder (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ponder)

Spellhate:
4 x Force of Will (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Force%20of%20Will)
4 x Daze (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Daze)
3 x Divert (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Divert)
3 x Spell Pierce (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Spell%20Pierce) // Spell Snare (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Spell%20Snare)

Other:
3 x Rapid Hybridization (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Rapid%20Hybridization) // Pongify (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Pongify) (Instead of Swords)
2 x Devastation Tide (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Devastation%20Tide) (A little suprise)

SB:
3 x Extract (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Extract) // Hydroblast (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Hydroblast)
3 x Alter Reality (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Alter%20Reality) (good with chill anyway)
3 x Chill (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Chill)
2 x Rushing River (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Rushing%20River) // Riptide (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Riptide)
3 x Echoing Truth (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Echoing%20Truth) // Mind Bomb (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Mind%20Bomb)
1 x Daze / Hybridization

[Tea]

// lands: 24
12 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Plain
1 Dust Bowl (could be another Island)
1 Academy Ruins

// card-quality: 4
4 Brainstorm

// early-game: 20
4 Vendilion Clique
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Force Spike
4 Engineered Explosives
1 Repeal

// lategame:
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Nevinyrral's Disk (I like Disk more than O-Stone)
3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Batterskull

SB:
4 Spell Pierce
4 Flusterstorm
3 Repeal
2 Dust Bowl
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Batterskull


That's my actual list. My former list is just one page back for comparison. I didn't change much radically, technically I've just given it a bit of fine-tuning, but the difference is definitely noticeable:
BtB and Disk shouldn't be run together (at least not in the maindeck)
1-of Academy Ruins is awesome with Batterskull (and 4x EE, Shackles, Disk)
Batterskull is faster/better than Aetherling, especially with Academy Ruins, a card I'm fully convinced of.
-1 Force Spike (or Spell Snare/Spell Pierce), +1 repeal gives the deck a better balance of removal/counterspells
Repeal is better than Ratchet bomb as the secondary removal spell after EE.
Dust Bowl is my prefered non-basic hate against Miracle.

Btw, I've drawn most of my inspiration from the members 4eak and Rancourous, p. 76.

[trino]

Hello everyone. I've been playing MUC casually with some friends for a couple of years now, and I've recently decided to take it to a some small local tournaments.
This is what I'm currently working with:

18 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest

4 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei’s Divining Top

4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

4 Propaganda
4 Vedalken Shackles

2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Curse of the Swine
1 Powder Keg

I'd like some outside thoughts on this deck. Be gentle :P

[Lemnear]

Hello everyone. I've been playing MUC casually with some friends for a couple of years now, and I've recently decided to take it to a some small local tournaments.
This is what I'm currently working with:

18 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest

4 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei’s Divining Top

4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

4 Propaganda
4 Vedalken Shackles

2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Curse of the Swine
1 Powder Keg

I'd like some outside thoughts on this deck. Be gentle :P

You might wanna look at Devastation Tide if you are already running SDT (please as a playset and with at least 8 fetchlands to maximize card selection) as removal is the crucial Problem in mono blue and Shackles/Propaganda are much too slow for todays threats. I could see this working with Vapor snag, Riptide Laboratory and Snapcasters to gain time for landdrops and/or Ancestral Visions. You might want to consider playing actual threats like Aetherling too as TNN + Counterbalance is pretty unreliable these days

[Darkenslight]

Jaces are probably better win-conditions than Shackles. In addition, I wouild consider playing Whelming Wave as a pseudo-Wrath effect (for Elves! and D&T, as well as EtW out of Storm).

[ParkerLewis]

Hi all,

sorry to see this thread basically dead.

I have this old list sleeved up from a few years ago (just going back from a ~6+ years break from the game), and was wondering how to update it ?

// Lands
24 [P2] Island (3)

// Creatures
2 [US] Morphling

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Counterspell
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [TE] Propaganda
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [TSP] Ancestral Vision
4 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [UD] Powder Keg
4 [US] Back to Basics

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 4 [TE] Chill
SB: 2 [LRW] Jace Beleren
SB: 4 [GP] Repeal

Obvious change :
+4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-4 Fact or Fiction

Other cards to consider : Vendilion Clique, TNN, Talrand, ... ?

I'd rather stay Mono-U, but I guess a little splash is possible.

[dsck]

Abrupt decay/Red elemental Blast/Pyroblast are problematic, which is why nobody plays this deck anymore since those 2 cards are in pretty much every tier 1 deck.

[MGB]

Abrupt decay/Red elemental Blast/Pyroblast are problematic, which is why nobody plays this deck anymore since those 2 cards are in pretty much every tier 1 deck.

So now that Top is banned, it means two things for this deck:

- Less Abrupt Decay in the format
- Many more nonbasic lands in the format (Miracles played alot of basics)

So the Shackles + Back to Basics combination suddenly became alot better in Legacy. Is this deck a playable "control" deck now?

[Von]

I'm (stupidly) thinking about sleeving this deck up for GP Vegas. The deck has never been unplayable imo. Yes decay hurts, but it hurts many other decks just as bad. We got a decent wincon in Torrential Gearhulk from Kaladash. The biggest question is going to be whether Mono-U is any better than U/x at being a control deck.

[Erdvermampfa]

I'm (stupidly) thinking about sleeving this deck up for GP Vegas. The deck has never been unplayable imo. Yes decay hurts, but it hurts many other decks just as bad. We got a decent wincon in Torrential Gearhulk from Kaladash. The biggest question is going to be whether Mono-U is any better than U/x at being a control deck.

I've also never understood why people considered this deck as dead. Shackles and B2B are highly potent cards that not too many decks where/are actually prepared to deal with reliably. Yes, there is A.Decay but usually you run a sufficient number of potential targets for their few Decays and let's also not forget that we have V.Clique at our disposal which is a way to handle Decay's too. Clique should always be run in maindeck in my view because it's decent in all matchups, can act as removal (if unexpected) but first and foremost significantally improves combo MUs and helps to deal with Planeswalkers.

And to be honest, I've never quite understood why people considered A.Decay that much of a problem for this deck. It's not as if it was solely dependent on Back to Basics or Shackles alone for functioning well. I've always deemed this deck as a board control deck with access to counter magic and viewed the permanents like Shackles and B2B rather as supplements than as actual goals of the deck. It's also reasonable to pursue different strategies and not to rely solely on one admittedly easily hateable B2B strategy.

As for the finisher you suggested: I can hardly see why it would be much better than existing alternatives. Aetherling is still better imo (because it really is immune to pretty much everything if played right, i.e. with enough open mana) and you need that one 100% inevitable win con. Since you ought to run only 1 or 2 CC6 old school finishers anyways in my view, Aetherling should be prefered.

This is a list I came up with some time ago but that has proved pretty decent:

// 60 Maindeck
// 6 Artifact
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Ratchet Bomb

// 4 Creature
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Aetherling

// 3 Enchantment
3 Back to Basics

// 17 Instant
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Impulse
2 Cryptic Command
2 Echoing Truth
1 Repeal

// 23 Land
4 Scalding Tarn
19 Island

// 3 Planeswalker
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// 4 Sorcery
4 Ancestral Vision

[Poron]

CounterTop is banned no excuses for less than 4 Chalice in MUControl

[Dr_D]

Brainstorm is an excuse to not run chalice. To that end, I think the list posted above needs brainstorm as well, there's no good reason to not be playing it.

[Erdvermampfa]

Brainstorm is an excuse to not run chalice. To that end, I think the list posted above needs brainstorm as well, there's no good reason to not be playing it.

Can you provide a good reason then why Brainstorm needs to be played in the list or in mono blue control in general other than the deck being blue and therefore has to play brainstorm? Stop assuming that everything that can afford to play it also has to do so. Brainstorm is rather mediocre and lackluster in control decks like these and doesn't contribute anything particularly helpful to realize this deck's goals. If one dares to think outside of the established categories you would quickly realize that it doesn't add anything valuable to the deck. It just doesn't do anything, it neither generates CA nor influences the game state or helps to get ahead or gain control of the game (which should always be the primary goals). It forces you to play fetchlands, thus destabilizes the mana base and further weakens aggro MUs due to the repeated life loss. All it does is add some consistency that you can get by good and balanced card choices as well.

My sceptical view on Brainstorm in decks like these is by the way nothing all too uncommon and is actually shared by quite a few other players and has a long tradition, see for example the original post of this thread from almost a decade ago.

[P210]

What about Trophy Mage as "card advantage" ?
She can tutor Shackles, any Sword of XY as win con and perhaps Crucible of Worlds, which leads me to the question: Why not play Mox Diamond to get Chalice earlier?
Crucible would also be an option to advance the board state by repeatable Fetchland abuse, but no idea if that's worth it...

[Dr_D]

Can you provide a good reason then why Brainstorm needs to be played in the list or in mono blue control in general other than the deck being blue and therefore has to play brainstorm? Stop assuming that everything that can afford to play it also has to do so. Brainstorm is rather mediocre and lackluster in control decks like these and doesn't contribute anything particularly helpful to realize this deck's goals. If one dares to think outside of the established categories you would quickly realize that it doesn't add anything valuable to the deck. It just doesn't do anything, it neither generates CA nor influences the game state or helps to get ahead or gain control of the game (which should always be the primary goals). It forces you to play fetchlands, thus destabilizes the mana base and further weakens aggro MUs due to the repeated life loss. All it does is add some consistency that you can get by good and balanced card choices as well.

My sceptical view on Brainstorm in decks like these is by the way nothing all too uncommon and is actually shared by quite a few other players and has a long tradition, see for example the original post of this thread from almost a decade ago.

The question was asked: what's the excuse to not run chalice, brainstorm is a possible answer, but I do think the idea of running chalice is better. However in the above list, there's definitely a case for brainstorm. While it may be mediocre, you'll often be much happier to see a midgame brainstorm than an ancestral recall. In short, you need the filtering in my opinion, and I think you'll get more milage out of 4 brainstorm than 4 ancestral recall. I also think brainstorm is a much better card for filtering than impulse, as it essentially lets you unmulligan bad hands. If you still want card advantage, there's Jace and maybe fact or fiction (which I've liked in MUC in the past). Feel free to prove me wrong though.

[wolfstorm]

My older list from basically pre-miracles(like around when its the fear was a thing?)... Actually seems to be testing decent in the current meta, at least on cockatrice.

// 60 Maindeck
// 9 Artifact
2 Journeyer's Kite (instead of 2 islands, was sick back in the day and still is awesome.)
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Vedalken Shackles
1 Oblivion Stone

// 2 Creature
2 Sphinx of Jwar Isle

// 5 Enchantment
2 Back to Basics
3 Energy Field

// 18 Instant
4 Repeal
3 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Cryptic Command

// 22 Land
22 Island

// 4 Sorcery
4 Ancestral Vision


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt

// 2 Creature
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre

// 10 Instant
SB: 1 Dominate
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Evacuation
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Spell Burst
SB: 1 Capsize
SB: 1 Hibernation
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction

[Dr_D]

My older list from basically pre-miracles(like around when its the fear was a thing?)... Actually seems to be testing decent in the current meta, at least on cockatrice.

// 60 Maindeck
// 9 Artifact
2 Journeyer's Kite (instead of 2 islands, was sick back in the day and still is awesome.)
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Vedalken Shackles
1 Oblivion Stone

// 2 Creature
2 Sphinx of Jwar Isle

// 5 Enchantment
2 Back to Basics
3 Energy Field

// 18 Instant
4 Repeal
3 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Cryptic Command

// 22 Land
22 Island

// 4 Sorcery
4 Ancestral Vision


// 15 Sideboard
// 3 Artifact
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt

// 2 Creature
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre

// 10 Instant
SB: 1 Dominate
SB: 1 Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Evacuation
SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Spell Burst
SB: 1 Capsize
SB: 1 Hibernation
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction

That list looks sweet. I'm going to test the following 60 when I have a chance, not sure what I'll try for the board.

// 60 Maindeck
// 9 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
1 Vedalken Shackles

// 6 Creature
3 Vendilion Clique
3 True-Name Nemesis

// 7 Enchantment
3 Back to Basics
4 Propaganda

// 15 Instant
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Cryptic Command
2 Fact or Fiction
3 Flusterstorm

// 23 Land
23 Island

[Hopo]

Outside Brainstorm, Chalice sucks with your cheap counters like Pierce, Snare, Dispel and such.

You need Brainstorm in your blue control deck to avoid having the wrong cards at wrong times.

Also, play Jace.

The issue with Decay is that it means your Bug matchups are terrible when all your hardcore control cards get hit by it through your wall of counterspells.

[Von]

Here's the list I'm brewing with

22 lands
4 Wastelands
1 Academy Ruins
Islands + fetches rest

4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pirece
3 Repeal
3 Dismember
3 Back to Basics
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 JTMS
2 Torrential Gearhulk
2 Standstill
2 Shackles
2 Ponder
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir


Sb:
4 Energy Field
3 True-name Nemesis
(unfinished)


First off I think Wasteland is 100% needed for this deck, otherwise Show and tell decks pretty much auto win with a early Boseju, Cavern of Souls is also a issue we have to deal with.

The rest of the deck is pretty standard except for Gearhulks, mainly because I don't think tapping out on your turn is a good idea with a hard control deck. The argument will be that once you control the game you can freely cast Aetherling with out worrying, but in that cast any wincon would be good enough, evasion or not. Gearhulk is not as evasive Aetherling but it comes down just as fast, can takeout their wincon while being yours meaning it's a huge tempo swing many times, while also doubles as a emergency counterspell/removal that helps you control the board. With Academy Ruins it also recurs at least once giving you another wincon when needed.

Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir is something I'm testing out. I feel like many combo decks just can't deal with a resolved Teferi because they can't remove him and also can't win counter wars to push their wincon through.

Sideboard choices include Energy Field because I feel burn is probably one of this deck's worst match ups. Energy Field + TNN pretty much auto wins against burn unless you miss a butt load of land drops and have to discard. For the rest of the SB cards I'm thinking Spellskite, because I imagine infect is also a horrendous match for this deck. I'm also toying with Chalice and maybe Mishras Factories + more Standstill to turn full Landstill post board againest non wasteland decks.

[Kagehisa]

Hi guys !

This is my list, stealing a lot from new miracles wich I play too :


4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Portent
4 Predict

4 Set Adrift
4 Vanishment

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainsforest
11 Island

What the cards do :
Brainstorm fills the graveyard for Set Adrift's reduction cost and sets up Predict and Vanishment.
Ponder fills the graveyard and sets up Predict.
Portent same as Ponder but lets you miracle in your opponent's turn and shuffle their library after Vanishment/Set Adrift.
Predict is easy to set up with this deck and comboes with Vanishment/Set Adrift.
Set Adrift and Vanishment are removals that need set up before and after to truly shine. Their sequencings are really important.
FoW and Counterspell are possible follow up for Vanishment and Set Adrift.
Jace is the win con and MVP of the deck. He draws card to fill the graveyard for Set Adrift, he bottoms Set Adrift and Vanishment target, sets up Predict and Vanishment, bounces Clique's future target, etc.
Snapcaster Mage is not as great as if we played Swords to Plowshares but fashbacking Counterspell, cantrips and sometimes Set Adrift or Vanishment feels good.
Clique is disruption to clear the path for a Jace and follows Set Adrift, Vanishment, Jace's bounce.

Here is a list of interactions the deck relies on :

Set Adrift as removal :
Set Adrift + FOW
Set Adrift + Portent (targeting opponent and shuffle) (cost UU)
Set Adrift + Predict your opponent (cost 1UU)
Set Adrift + Counterspell (cost UUU)
Set Adrift + Vendilion Clique (cost 1UUU)
Set Adrift + Jace TMS on board and his fateseal ability
Remember we play lots of cantrips, instants and fetchlands to grow the graveyard.


To set up a Predict :
Brainstorm + Predict
Ponder + Predict
Portent + Predict
Vanishment + Predict
Set Adrift + Predict
Jace + Predict
Vanishment + Predict

To set up a Vanishment :
Brainstorm, Ponder, Portent, Jace and then follow up just like in the Set Adrift section.

Back to Basics must be somewhere but I don't know what to remove. BtB makes every bounce a strong removal when your opponent cast recast the target. Then if I play BtB, I want some Vapor Snag in the Vanishment/Set Adrift slots because easier to flashback and requires no set up (after a BtB anyway). Maybe the last Set Adrift should be a Vedalken Shackles.

Counterbalance is in my maybe list because it prevents opponent's replay after bouncing with Set Adrift and Vanishment or Jace so it can be in the Clique's slot.

So maybe - 3 Clique and + 1 Back to basics and 2 Counterbalance and - 1 Vanishment and 1 Set Adrift and + 1 Vapor Snag + 1 Vedalken Shackles.

[baghdadbob]

Hi ya'll. Trying to build up my little brothers MUC build. Any pointers would be appreciated. Haven't played or been on in a while so I obviously don't know the meta anymore. I can not believe how expensive Flusterstorm is now!!!:eek: Here is the list we are rocking...

Lands
10x Island
2x Misty Rainforest
4x Flooded Strand
4x Wasteland

Istant/Sorcery
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
4x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
2x Psionic Blast
4x Stifle

Creatures
1x Talrand Sky Summoner
2x Snapcastermage
4x Phyrexian Dreadnaught
4x Delver of Secrets
4x True-name Nemesis

Other
3x Jace the Mindsculptor
2x Vedalken Shackles

S/B
4x Chill
3x Back to Basics
4x Flusterstorm
4x Propoganda

The deck plays a more aggressive mainboard and switches out to a much more control like build against weak matches like burn and creature based decks. Perhaps psionic blast is too antiquated but it seems decent against other Jaces and creatures, fun to play off snapcaster. Comments appreciated. Have a good day!

[serendib]

"Normal" approach to MUC building I think don't work well at the moment.
The "classic" lock strategies (Back to Basics + Propaganda + Ratchet Bomb + Vedalken Shackles) is way too slow to set.

Remember we can die of Shaman activations, opponent snapcaster, opponent nemesis, opponent vendilion ...
A Gurmag Angler can come down on turn 3 ... Shackles can take him from turn 5 ...
and so on.

I try to build with your help

So what do we need ?
-> Lifegain
-> Alternative plans, faster plans

First of all _ Why nobody thinks True-Name Nemesis is the coolest card for this deck ?
It can kill opponent (Jaces)
It can stay defense
When you have multiple copies you can do both things
It gets immediately a 4X slot

Having Nemsis as a must, I suggest to have something to attach to it, so that we can have some lifegain
Jitte, Batterskull and Basilisk Collar (if Trinket Mage) are the possibile cards. Probabely a single batterskull can work good because it creates his creature by him self, if a Nemesis is on play we can attach to it. Batterskull is out new Ætherling at the moment. Batterskull on Nemesis is like god.

Lets' do the rest.
4 Counterspells and 4 Force of Will are to my view a must

What do we have in the format ? A lot of nonbasic lands (there is even a 4c Control deck LoL) and a lot o Deathrite shaman who can do mana... and a lot of Snapcasters. We have to stop them. To stop them we have to slow them. How do decks in the metagame accelerate mana or race ? With their GRAVEYARD ! (Shaman, Gurmag, Lands decks, Rug Decks etc.) -> 3/4 copies of Relic of Progenitus maindeck seems a good start to me. They are good even in multiple copies because they cicle themself (and sometimes can "store" cards against decks who use lots of black discard spells).

3 X Back to Basics + 3 X Relic of Progenitus slow down a lot of decks

The drawback of Relic is that it makes Snapcaster Mage less powerful for us ... but also for opponents.
So I am tended not to use snapcaster. An other reason why I am not a fan of Snapcaster in monoblue is that it has few (and horrible) remouval istant spells to flashback. The best target is Brainstorm. Rarely you can use him to attack ... because opponents are very pleased to find a target to their remouval spells that they have in hand (Same reason why using Mishra's Factory is to my view stupid ... we have so little target to oppos' remouvals that they immediately die ... unless we give them a lot of targets ... ).

How do we block opponents creatures to kill us ? (Please I don't believe I can counter enought ... most decks run 9/10 counters too, even if they are fast beaters). Propaganda and Powder Keg / Ratchet Bomb and Shackles are good but slow (Propaganda way too slow).
What about Ensnaring Bridge ? Can he be out new Energy Field ? I am corius to test him 3/4 copies. Probabely with 2 Misdirection mainboard, 2 Engineered Explosives.

As for Draw Engine and card selection
please, please, do not use orribile cards like Think Twice (even Hieroglyphic Illumination is better, at least to draw 1 it cost U and not 1U, and to draw two it does not go under spell snare) or Ancestral Vision (also known as the worse topdeck of legacy).
Use Brainstorm, some other cantrips, Jace, The Mindsculptor, creatures like Trinket Mage, spells who do also some things (like Criptic Command), Predict if you use 9/10/11 cantrips and the delve spell in sinergy.

Nimble Obstructionist is quite interesting.
It makes as a "stile" + Draw on opponents' ability cycling for 2U
(Only opponents, we cannot use it with a Dreadnought)
The best "stifling" that it cames to my mind is a T3 fetch or on an opponents' planeswalker activation (e.g. stifle ultimate).
Cycling cannot be countered but stifled back.
The body (3/1, flying, flash) is decent good also played as creature.

https://magiccards.info/scans/en/hou/40.jpg

One more thing. Misthollow Griffin in interesting too with:
- Chrome Mox (not, not, not Mox Diamond who takes you 24 slots for lands + 4 slots for him ... to much) Chrome Mox is way better.
- Force of Will
- Misdirection
- Manipulate Fate maybe, not sure
- Relic of Progenitus (when Griffin dies, lategame, we remouve and play again ...)
- with a deck with Thirst for Knowledge, Relic and a number of artifacts

Whir of Invention is interesting too. A lot. And Tezzeret The Seeker even more (especially if you play relic, chrome mox, some other artifacts etc.

Hope to have put on field new ideas even if not shaped ideas

[serendib]

I'm trying a Mono-U Control Combo
I don't know if it could be considered as a MUC

20 mana sources ( 3 ancient Tomb + 4 fetchlands + 1 Academy Ruins + Islands)

1 Tezzeret the Seeker

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Whir of Invention

4 Force of Will
4 other counters
2 Hydroblast

2 Back to Basics

2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle

4 Painter Servant
4 Grinstone

Sideboard
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 Thopter Spy Network
3 Blue Elemental Blast
etc.

You can play this deck both as a control, both as a combo.
For example you can side out 3 grindstone for 3 blasts and protect painter and you can blast opponents spells or permanents. You can stall the game with Bridge and or Back to Basics and kill opponenet via Tezzeret finish ability.
You can do lots of things.
You can even use
Dreadnough + Stifle + Vision Charm + Winter Orb
instead of Painter + Grindstone + hydroblast.

Whir of Invention is a card so powerful that needs a mono U deck.

[DNSolver]

The Painter-Stone thread has addressed the mono-U Painter deck - you might have better luck discussing your ideas over there.

[frustanani]

I'm actually playing this list and it works quite well

10 Island
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
3 Maze of Ith

(tot 24 lands)

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Standstill
2 Temporal Mastery

4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Jace, th Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Daze
3 Stifle

3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Relic of Progenitus

Sideboard:
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Sower of Temptation
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Misdirection
1 Hydroblast
1 Dismember
1 Capsize
1 Batterskull
1 Crucible of Worlds

I chose to do some denial via wasteland + daze + stifle instead of Back to Basics because nonbasic lands can help me killing Jace, stand under standstill and make damages, epecially vs opponent Planeswalkers

The package True-Name Nemesis + Maze of Ith + Ensnaring Bridge is there to be a soft wall vs opponent creatures wich you can do not counter most of times

Jace, Relic and Temporal Mastery are so flexible cards that make the deck run good.
Especially Relic is good vs all the field because slow down Shaman, Tarmogoyf, lands based decks etc. and it does cycle itself.
Temporal Mastery can make you often win while you are defending yourself with some Nemesis and Factories, and then you double swing to race.

Sower of Temptation is very good g2 and g3 because any opponent sides-out some remouval spells.

The sideboard cards I am very happy with are
2 Misdirection
3 Sower of Temptation
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Surgical Extraction
and the other cards are quite flexible, I change them quite often

Vial decks are quite difficult to face

For sure it is not a potential tier1, but this deck works well and you never start beaten thanks to its flexibility of choices of gameplan.

What do you think ? (it takes quite a bit to test it)

[frustanani]

I made some little changes

10 Island
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
3 Maze of Ith

(tot 24 lands)

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Standstill
2 Temporal Mastery

4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Jace, th Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Daze
3 Stifle

3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Relic of Progenitus

Sideboard:

4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Sower of Temptation
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Misdirection
2 Rushing River
2 Surgical Extraction

As far as lots of opponents side out remouval spells, I sometimes side in Revokers, Sower and Misdirection g2 and chose an aggressive gameplan.
It is quite easy not to die because of creatures a part from Deathrite Shaman

For my test, good match ups are
Eldrazi
Show and Tell
Reanimator (any colour)
Dark Depth decks and lands decks
Control Mirror
Dragon Stompy

Bad match ups are
Death and Texas and all vial deck in general
Burn decks because MUC clock is slow

Balanced match ups are
4C control (Decks you need to do some early denial to switch them off )
Grixis Pyromancer (Decks you need to do some early denial to switch them off )
Remember Deathrite Shaman is our bigger enemy
Canadian Threshold (RUG Delver)

[Kagehisa]

Hello everyone !

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Portent
4 Predict

3 Set Adrift
3 Vanishment
1 Vapor Snag
1 Vedalken Shackles

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Back to Basics
2 Counterbalance

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
11 Island

Sideboard

3 Disrupt
3 Flusterstorm

1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Surgical Extraction

3 Vapor Snag
1 Vedalken Shackles

1 Talrand, Sky Summoner

The list is strong even if I lose a lot with it because of my own mistakes.
I edited my previous post to explain my choices but to make things shorter, this is a Jace/Predict centric list.

I think MUC is viable only if you have a strong removal package like U/Wx Miracles. Unfortunately, Swords to Plowshares and Terminus are white and my attempt to represent a blue removal package is not good enough against very aggro deck. So the real deal in MUC is finding a good removal package in my opinion because against spell combo based deck, MUC is good and against tempo too thanks to the mana base.

EDIT :

I might try Search for Azcanta in MUC. I don't know why I didn't try it earlier since I own 2 of them in my UW Miracles deck. The thing is that it is not affected by Devastation Tide after it becomes a nonbasic land, which make the Back to Basics cut a first choice at moment. So maybe something like :

-1 Back to Basics
-2 Counterbalance
-1 Vedalken Shackles
because Tide bounces them all

+2 Search for Azcanta
+2 Devastation Tide

But then... Devastation Tide + Vendilion Clique is just too good later (Tide bounces Clique and opponent's permanent and you replay Clique and discard it, probleme solved) and I miss them because they clear the path (discard countermagic/Bolt effect and blocker) for Jace and are a follow up after Jace's Unsummon and I cannot cut Snapcaster Mage because they are basically Brainstorm and I just added more Miracle cards. There must be room made for at 2 or 3 Vendilion Clique. One might think that Jace and Tide are a nonbo but it is the same as playing Wrath of God and Serra's Angel in the same deck. In fact, they are good together. Jace stalls and enables/sets up Tide and Tide clear the path for Jace or rebuys him.

I will try this list :

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Portent
3 Predict

3 Set Adrift
3 Vanishment
1 Repeal
2 Devastation Tide

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Search for Azcanta


4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
11 Island

Sideboard

3 Flusterstorm
2 Counterbalance

3 Surgical Extraction

2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Vapor Snag
1 Engineered Explosives

2 Back to Basics

[Von]

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

4 Repeal
3 Standstill
3 Back to Basics
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Fact or Fiction
2 Dominate

3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Nimble Obstructionist
2 Jace, the mindsculpter


6 fetchs
12 Island
4 Wasteland


IMHO theres not reason to play MUC unless you're jamming Back to Basics (and shackles to a lesser extent), if you're not running B2B then adding any other color would make the deck stronger, so I think maindeck B2B is a must.

This is the rough list I'm working on...I am unsure about 2x Fact or Fiction, I might very well replace them with 2 more win cons like Clique or even Teferi. The idea is to keep the board clear, flash in a guy eot and lock the board with Standstill. I think repeal is vastly underrated...it slows down alot of decks for very little mana, 20/20 tokens, flipped delvers, aether vials etc and is value with Snapcaster Mage.

[Kagehisa]

You are completely right about Back to Basics and I'm just testing new toys in MUC. My list is different from others because it is basically MUC miracles without the strong white removal suit and I had in mind a very Jace centric list. I will find room for BtB anyway because I play MUC only for nostalgia and Back to Basics.

By the way, Search for Azcanta is really good. It even feeds the graveyard for Set Adrift so that at one point in the game, I can play my cantrips more conservatively. I think I'm onto something but I can't decide between Counterbalance, Search for Azcanta, Vendilion Clique, Devastation Tide and Back to Basics.

Against some decks, I want Search, Tide and Clique.
Against other, I want BtB, Counterbalance and Clique.

I like Fact and Fiction and Snapcaster Mage in your list and I can see myself playing a list with 4 of these if they are as awesome as I think they are together.

Dominate is not as good as it used to be against Delver because it still is 1 cmc when flipped with the new rules.

I won't dismiss Standstill in MUC but the idea is that Standstill need to be asymetrical by playing manlands or strong one drop (Delver or Sword to Plowshares) so that turn 2 Standstill can be game winning. This idea presents an interference with Standstill and Back to Basics. So the next step is to know how good is Standstill without manlands or strong 1 cmc (such as Delver). Flashing creatures may do the trick before but not under an Standstill. Tell us how it goes for you.

That's why Standstill is not a common choice in MUC. Maybe you can try Force of Will, Curfew and Vapor Snag to clear the board turn 1 and drop a turn 2 Standstill and manlands and Back to Basics together in the deck because one does not exclude the other automatically. Standstill would stall and make you recover from the Vapor Snag card disadvantage and everyone is happy.

Happy brewing anyway :) because MUC is so experimental at this point !

[Von]

Revised list

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell

4 Repeal
3 Propaganda
3 Back to Basics
3 Fact or Fiction

4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Nimble Obstructionist
2 Jace, the mindsculpter
2 Patron Wizard


6 fetchs
12 Island
4 Wasteland

I didn't know that the rules changed so flipped creatures have a cmc now. I that case I dropped dominate. I also dropped Shackles, as I think the biggest weakness this deck has is opponents going wide since it has no sweepers, and instead I added propaganda to the list instead, it should help alot againest grixis pyro and other token strats, even buy a turn againest a sneak attack most of the time. I also dropped stand stills as its a valid point about manlands and sucks. I added 2 patron wizards to create a soft lock if I can get them out early againest a weak board (eg turn 2 snap + t3 patron wizard should be gg againest alot of decks). I also though about adding 1 mutavault for the wizard count, but it really doesnt pay well with B2b

[Kagehisa]

MUC

Deck list :

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Portent
4 Predict

4 Vanishment
4 Set Adrift

4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
2 Soothsaying

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Back to Basics

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
11 Island

Sideboard is still in work

Quick description of the deck :

This is a Counterbalance deck. Cantrips set up Counterbalance until Soothsaying and Jace, the Mind Sculptor make it a lock piece.

Cantrips feed the graveyard and smooth your draws to set up your one blue mana timewalks, Vanishment (miracle) and Set Adrift (delve). Later, they become removals with Predict and Portent and to some extent with Counterbalance (when it works) or Back to Basics (when your opponent cannot recast what was bounced) and Jace +2 ability.

So sad that this deck is considered DEAD :(

[Von]

I like the Counterbalance package. I don't think the deck is dead... bounce just doesn't do well as removal when things like Eldrazi can drop 3+ threats on turn 1 from a eye of ugin. I really feel like we should be playing chrome mox or something, to get our resources up quicker and not quickly die to certain decks.

[frustanani]

To Kagehisa

you list dies to a true-name nemesis
i suggest you not having jace as the only win condition and to be able to face something that do brake your wall of couters


To Von and all of you

please all of you should play 4 True-Name Nemesis because they act as walls, as beaters, and can also attack planeswalkers
creatures like Nimble Obstructionist or Patron Wizard are interesting ... but Nemesis are so better

and please if you want to play things like Propaganda ... Ensnaring Bridges is so better

Snapcaster Mage is not that useful if he is a cc4 counterspell or a cc3 brainstorm
much better Trinket Mage (and even cheeper)

An interesting package is
4 True-Name Nemesis

2/3/4 Trinket Mage
1/2 Walking Ballista
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives (even if you can cast it only for 1 and for 0 is still strong)
1 Basilisk Collar (makes True Name Nemesis lifelink which is kind of both defending and attacking. On Ballista is kind of fun)

3 Relic of Progenitus (maindeck ... shaman ... etc ... almost every deck uses his graveyard nowadays)

Zahid, Djiin of the Lamp and / or Tempest Djinn can be interesting too as additional "cheap" beaters. Nearly only Swords to Plowshares can kill Zahid.

Also Warkite Marauder is interesting with Shackles and Walking Ballista

I think mono blue control does not mean you cannot use artifacts guys. There are so many good artifacts you can use to make card / tempo advantage or to defend, attack or kill. I think you should consider blue also as the colour that glue a mostly artifact based deck together.

To my view there is no reason to base a deck around Back to Basics if you are not able fast enought to stop an opponent to take mana from a single basic land + a deathrite shaman. A turn 4 "take his Deathrite shaman with a Shackles" is a quite ridiculous plan. It is ridiculous too to face a Deathrite Shaman (one of the most played cards in Legacy) with some Propagandas ... he will kill you with shock damage. And ridiculous too is thinking to face a combo deck with a wall of couters without having something to race him on board.

Bounce spells are not a solid gameplan too. You cannot rely on them. Boucers are kind of "the last hope" to solve a problem.
4/5/6/7/8 bounce spells do notthing against a combo deck, a Emrakul etc, a Vial Deck etc.

For who want to play Snapcasters ... your counters are to my view
4 force of will
0/1/2 Misdirection
2/3/4 Counterspell
2/3 Disrupt -> so many decks start with turn 1 ponder or similar (turn 2 hymn to tourach etc.) ... Disrupt is so good early game while late game it becomes a 1 mana draw spell on an opponent spell or a 2 mana cicling targetting on one or your spells.
Counterspell total number should not exceed 10-11 (counterbalances included) to my view.

I played this list back in the days for a very long time
22 island
1 Academy Ruins
2 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet / Masticore
4 Back to Basics
4 Propaganda
4 Powder Keg
3 Vedalken Shackles
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Impulse
4 force of Will
3 Spell Snare / Chalice of the Void
4 Counterspell
I loved it ... but it is not playable anymore ... I'm sorry. Really.

[Von]

To Kagehisa

you list dies to a true-name nemesis
i suggest you not having jace as the only win condition and to be able to face something that do brake your wall of couters


To Von and all of you

please all of you should play 4 True-Name Nemesis because they act as walls, as beaters, and can also attack planeswalkers
creatures like Nimble Obstructionist or Patron Wizard are interesting ... but Nemesis are so better

and please if you want to play things like Propaganda ... Ensnaring Bridges is so better

Snapcaster Mage is not that useful if he is a cc4 counterspell or a cc3 brainstorm
much better Trinket Mage (and even cheeper)

An interesting package is
4 True-Name Nemesis

2/3/4 Trinket Mage
1/2 Walking Ballista
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives (even if you can cast it only for 1 and for 0 is still strong)
1 Basilisk Collar (makes True Name Nemesis lifelink which is kind of both defending and attacking. On Ballista is kind of fun)

3 Relic of Progenitus (maindeck ... shaman ... etc ... almost every deck uses his graveyard nowadays)

Zahid, Djiin of the Lamp and / or Tempest Djinn can be interesting too as additional "cheap" beaters. Nearly only Swords to Plowshares can kill Zahid.

Also Warkite Marauder is interesting with Shackles and Walking Ballista

I think mono blue control does not mean you cannot use artifacts guys. There are so many good artifacts you can use to make card / tempo advantage or to defend, attack or kill. I think you should consider blue also as the colour that glue a mostly artifact based deck together.

To my view there is no reason to base a deck around Back to Basics if you are not able fast enought to stop an opponent to take mana from a single basic land + a deathrite shaman. A turn 4 "take his Deathrite shaman with a Shackles" is a quite ridiculous plan. It is ridiculous too to face a Deathrite Shaman (one of the most played cards in Legacy) with some Propagandas ... he will kill you with shock damage. And ridiculous too is thinking to face a combo deck with a wall of couters without having something to race him on board.

Bounce spells are not a solid gameplan too. You cannot rely on them. Boucers are kind of "the last hope" to solve a problem.
4/5/6/7/8 bounce spells do notthing against a combo deck, a Emrakul etc, a Vial Deck etc.

For who want to play Snapcasters ... your counters are to my view
4 force of will
0/1/2 Misdirection
2/3/4 Counterspell
2/3 Disrupt -> so many decks start with turn 1 ponder or similar (turn 2 hymn to tourach etc.) ... Disrupt is so good early game while late game it becomes a 1 mana draw spell on an opponent spell or a 2 mana cicling targetting on one or your spells.
Counterspell total number should not exceed 10-11 (counterbalances included) to my view.

I played this list back in the days for a very long time
22 island
1 Academy Ruins
2 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet / Masticore
4 Back to Basics
4 Propaganda
4 Powder Keg
3 Vedalken Shackles
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Impulse
4 force of Will
3 Spell Snare / Chalice of the Void
4 Counterspell
I loved it ... but it is not playable anymore ... I'm sorry. Really.

I think TNN is very good, and should probably be in all the decks. However Bridge serves a different purpose than Propaganda in this deck. Being a true control deck Bridge is only going to stop Sneak and show/re animator from beating you, while everything else goes under it. The issue of mono blue has already been the lack of true removal. Which is why I think we must play things like dismember or repeal instead of just relying on shackles and things.
You list looks good, but looks like it was prefetch lands. I think with fetch and 8x cantrips and snapcaster mage the decks gets alot more consistant and can survive more easily.

[Captain Hammer]

I agree. TNN should be played in every list.

[Kagehisa]

First, I want to say I'm completely open to suggestion. If ideas and build can make MUC a deck again, I'm happy with it.

Okay, let's talk about True-Name Nemesis.

In the Grixis Delver match up, one of the best Legacy deck right now, I'm not sure it does what people described. Opposing (transformed) Delver of Secrets, Deathrite Shaman, True-Name Nemesis can "attack" through our TNN. Gurmag Angler doesn't die to it if it get blocked and Young Pyromancer can still deal (lethal) damage with its tokens. Acting like a wall is not really what TNN accomplishes here and we cannot reallistically think we can race them when they are the aggro deck.

Though I'm seduced by the idea of a Mono Blue version of Stoneblade with TNN, Trinket Mage and Trophy Mage like suggested before with Basilisk Colar and Sword of X and Y.

Meekstone and Energy Field are the cards I think can help against opposing TNN and yes that's true that my list loses to a resolve TNN. Juntu Stakes can deal with DRS by the way. I will test my list with Meekstone and Juntu Stakes on my next holydays. With both in play, only Young Pyromancer untaps in Grixis Delver hahhaha

[Erdvermampfa]

You guys should drop all the narrow and odd cards like Nimble Obstructionst, Meekstone or that Juntu crap for cards which have a power level more appropriate to the format. It may all look sound and appealing in theory or on paper but most things in this format depend on plain power level which cards inherently possess. You shouldn't look for all them neat synergies and subtleties but instead simply pile up the currently most powerful blue cards the card pool offers.

[frustanani]

First, I want to say I'm completely open to suggestion. If ideas and build can make MUC a deck again, I'm happy with it.

Okay, let's talk about True-Name Nemesis.

In the Grixis Delver match up, one of the best Legacy deck right now, I'm not sure it does what people described. Opposing (transformed) Delver of Secrets, Deathrite Shaman, True-Name Nemesis can "attack" through our TNN. Gurmag Angler doesn't die to it if it get blocked and Young Pyromancer can still deal (lethal) damage with its tokens. Acting like a wall is not really what TNN accomplishes here and we cannot reallistically think we can race them when they are the aggro deck.

Though I'm seduced by the idea of a Mono Blue version of Stoneblade with TNN, Trinket Mage and Trophy Mage like suggested before with Basilisk Colar and Sword of X and Y.

Meekstone and Energy Field are the cards I think can help against opposing TNN and yes that's true that my list loses to a resolve TNN. Juntu Stakes can deal with DRS by the way. I will test my list with Meekstone and Juntu Stakes on my next holydays. With both in play, only Young Pyromancer untaps in Grixis Delver hahhaha

What you say is true.

The following list is a work in progress, but shows what I mean

3 wasteland
8 fetchlands
7 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Snow-Covered Swamp

1 Masticore
1 Walking Ballista
4 True-Name Nemesis
3 Trinket Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Thirst for Knowledge

2 Back to Basics
3 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell

3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives

1 Basilisk Collar

3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor

Sideboard:
2 Tezzereth the Seeker
3 Venser, Shaper Savant
3 Flusterstorm
2 Misdirection
1 Batterskull
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Vedalken Shackles

[MGB]

You guys should drop all the narrow and odd cards like Nimble Obstructionst, Meekstone or that Juntu crap for cards which have a power level more appropriate to the format. It may all look sound and appealing in theory or on paper but most things in this format depend on plain power level which cards inherently possess. You shouldn't look for all them neat synergies and subtleties but instead simply pile up the currently most powerful blue cards the card pool offers.


Absolutely.

That's one of the reasons why I always railed against the inclusion of Propaganda in this deck. People claimed that it combo-ed well with Back to Basics but as a standalone card it is simply far too weak for this format.

[Kagehisa]

frustanani

I see your list and reread the previous ones and you have convinced me to play Ensnaring Bridge.

I can see what you did here. Your list should be a Grixis Delver killer. And I love how you can free yourself from your own Bridge with EE @3 to finish opponent :D

DRS :
Needle, Explosives, Relic
B2B (stop the DRS draining), Masticore, Ballista

Delver :
Explosives
Masticore, Ballista, Bridge

Pyromancer
Explosives
B2B (because Pyromancer is mana intensive), Bridge, Ballista, Masticore, Trinket Mage

TNN :
Explosives
Bridge, B2B

Gurmag Angler :
Relic
Collar, Bridge, Masticore, JaceTMS, Trinket Mage

[frustanani]

frustanani

I see your list and reread the previous ones and you have convinced me to play Ensnaring Bridge.

I can see what you did here. Your list should be a Grixis Delver killer. And I love how you can free yourself from your own Bridge with EE @3 to finish opponent :D

DRS :
Needle, Explosives, Relic
B2B (stop the DRS draining), Masticore, Ballista

Delver :
Explosives
Masticore, Ballista, Bridge

Pyromancer
Explosives
B2B (because Pyromancer is mana intensive), Bridge, Ballista, Masticore, Trinket Mage

TNN :
Explosives
Bridge, B2B

Gurmag Angler :
Relic
Collar, Bridge, Masticore, JaceTMS, Trinket Mage

It's quite rare to set explosives @3 to get rid of your own bridge. It is not that difficult to regulate the number of cards in your hand because that list has a lot of cheep permanents. Otherwise you use Jace to finish. More often you use e.e.@3 to solve things like a liliana or a sword of fire and ice or an opponent's nemesis. But is quite rare too.

Those games bridge is not effettive, i switch it with tezzeret who is kind of a 2turns kill card.

I am often thinking of a 3/4 painter and 1/2 grindstone with the 2 tezzeret in the side for a combo surprise g2.

I think Masticore is a huge wepon in the format (even without bridge) because kills nearly every creature she cannot block. If with collar is so fun.
I might want to increase to 3 the number of ballista and masticore because earlygame I often use a fast suicide ballista.

Actually is still quite difficult to face grixis decks because even if you block their creatures and shamans, you suffer bolts. So having basilisk collar online is crutial because you need lifegain and to avoid a bolt death. In the side than you can have misdirection (i think better than hydroblasts) and 1 more lifegain card (batterskull). An elixir could be interesting too (it is a cc1 artifact but i can't remember the name) for the side.

An other card good in this lists is cryptic command.
Delver of secrets or phyrexian revoker 4x in the side is good to against fast decks (we need to race).

[frustanani]

I am trying a different MUC deck too

2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Seat of Synod
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
6 Snow-Covered Island
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory (total 20)

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Trinket Mage
4 True-Name Nemesis
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Impulse
3 Standstill
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
3 Stifle
2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Pithing Needle
1 Walking Ballista
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought (not sure ... fancy but it win some games)

Sideboard:

3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Misdirection
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Masticore
1 Rushing River
1 Back to Basics

It can be played both as an aggro control, both as a pure control.
Without Delver of Secrets is a pure control deck. He often act as a " -1 card for your opponent + 1 land drop for you"
It is very fun to run.

I think that in general the following package is very good
4 True-Name Nemesis
3 or 4 Trinket Mage (depending on how much card advantage you have and how many bullets you use)
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Pithing Needle (1 more in side)
1 or 2 Engineered Explosives (2 or 3 between main and side)

Also a deck with only fetch, islands, back to basics, maybe some chrome mox and these new dudes here is interesting
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=442956&type=card http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=442964&type=card

[Fallen_Empire]

I am trying a different MUC deck too

2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Seat of Synod
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
6 Snow-Covered Island
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory (total 20)

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Trinket Mage
4 True-Name Nemesis
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Impulse
3 Standstill
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
3 Stifle
2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Pithing Needle
1 Walking Ballista
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought (not sure ... fancy but it win some games)

Sideboard:

3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Misdirection
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Masticore
1 Rushing River
1 Back to Basics

It can be played both as an aggro control, both as a pure control.
Without Delver of Secrets is a pure control deck. He often act as a " -1 card for your opponent + 1 land drop for you"
It is very fun to run.

I think that in general the following package is very good
4 True-Name Nemesis
3 or 4 Trinket Mage (depending on how much card advantage you have and how many bullets you use)
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Pithing Needle (1 more in side)
1 or 2 Engineered Explosives (2 or 3 between main and side)

Also a deck with only fetch, islands, back to basics, maybe some chrome mox and these new dudes here is interesting
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=442956&type=card http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=442964&type=card

+1 for playing Masticore in 2018

[Holmen]

The new djinns are interesting.

A shell could be:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Force of Will
3 Back to Basics
4 Tempest Djinn
2 Zahid, Djinn of the Lamp
4 Spire Golem
2 Glint-Nest Crane
4 Walking Ballista
4 Mishra's Bauble
2 Counterspell
1 Trinket Mage
1 Basilisk Collar

[frustanani]

I'm having a lot of fun with this mono-blue landstill list.
It works good; it is three days my record is 9-3. which is positive for a first test deck.


4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Maze of Ith
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
8 Island

///24///

3 Relic of Progenitus

4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will

1 Whir of Invention

4 True-Name Nemesi
1 Trinket Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Walking Ballista
1 Zahid, Djinn of the Lamp

4 Powder Keg
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Basilisk Collar


The idea behind is to stop opponent creatures with intelligent lands, true-name nemesis and some artifacts.
Impulse is very good in this list beacause of all the single bullets (even if they most are tutorable with Trinket Mage and/or Whir of Invention) and Standstill can be played nearly in any case.
It is like a deck that stards already with a sideboard in the 60, and with counterspells for storm decks and other most specific cards in the other 15 slots.
For example against reanimator, we already have 3 relic of progenitus, 3 maze of ith and the ensnaring bridge in the 60.
I don't feel the need of more counterspells in the main, except for combo decks (control and aggro control decks are easy match ups).

Sideboard:

2 Stifle versatile card: it is good vs storm, to make denial or defend a land, vs eldrazis' trigger abilities etc.
3 Flusterstorm (or Spell Pierce)

2 Marrow Shards (maybe even 3 copies)

1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Karakas

1 Umezawa's Jitte or a lifegain card or a Propaganda Any suggestion ? (it is the fast decks slot)
1 Masticore

1 Oblivion Stone it competes with ensnaring bridge and Crucible of Worlds for the slot in the mainboard 60 cards.
1 Pithing Needle
1 Rushing River

I discovered the existence of Marrow Shards and found it awesome against Baleful Strix&Young Pyromancer-decks, Aether Vial-decks and True-Name Nemesis-decks.
I sometimes side him in also against RUG-Delver (Canadian Threshold) because it combos with relic of progenitus killing Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose (and True-Name Nemesis they sometime play) ... but be careful they might have Null Rod in their sideboard.

I might want a Seat of the Synod in the maindeck (helps casting Zahid, Djinn of the Lamp for 5 mana when you don't have an artifact and to free yourself from opponent's Chokes)
and to find room for a Academy Ruins (even in the sideboard)

Maybe a copy of Chalice of The Void for storm (good even @0)

What do you think ? any suggestion ?

To my view mono blue is still playable. Remember it was a viable deck when decks whith Mystical Tutor or Survival of the Fittest were around.

[frustanani]

I've just discovered new cards

- Endless Atlas can be a good 1X in a Back to Basics list with only Islands or fetchlands.
Some years ago some were playing the horrible Crystal Balls (terrible card)

Some other new cards

- Retrofitter Foundry a token servo creator and level-uper (into thopter and into construct) which can be fetchable via Trinket Mage.
He can nearly hold the board by himself ... it is awesome to my view. Mono U control needs this card for sure.
- Whirler Rogue for tokens (thopter). It is nice that it does not suffer Spell Pierce. I like it.
- Reverse Engineer

They are all three in friendship with

- Karn, Scion of Urza for more tokens and/or card advantage. I like it because any ability makes card advantage. But none of them is that very good.
- Thopter Spy Network more tokens (thopter) and potentially draw engine
- Tezzeret the Seeker. So understimated card. soo good 1X.
- Zahid, Djinn of the Lamp _ Mahamoti cc4. Unluckyly he is legendary.
- Padeem, Consul of Innovation _ protection for our artifacts (he is a sideboard card to my view vs decay decks)
- The Antiquities War _ personally I prefere Tezzeret
- Trinket Mage & Whir of Invention and their tool

Maybe we could work on a list.
Those are all strong cards. I know they are not easy to fit with back to basics because I suppose that an artifact based list needs a manabase like this:

3/2 Ancient Tomb
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory or an other land that creates artifacts or is an artifact herself
2/3 Seat of the Synod
5 Fetchlands
6 Islands
3 Chrome Mox

But monoU with back to basics plays so many bad cards usually that I don't think one single card makes it strong. And back to basics restricts us so much opportunities.

Probabely I would add 4 Brainstorm instead of Chalice of The Void (@1) because it restricts our options too (expecially on the draw). I'm thinking to all trinket mage tool.
Probabely we check it after chosing the core of a deck.

[Fox]

If you're playing mono-blue not-Merfolk you probably need to try and cheese wins off the back of Chalice. In terms of card draw, within the context of Chalice, your best options are Thoughtcast, Reverse Engineer, Thirst for Knowledge, Search for Azcanta, Standstill, etc... or you go down the Paradoxical Outcome pathway.

Without going down the Paradoxical path the question becomes naming the best 0 or 2 drop artifacts which preferably don't tap such that your deck can utilize the improvise mechanic. At least 8 slots are Spyglass and Chrome Mox (option to play without imprint). Best creature would be Walking Ballista, so now you're at 16 artifacts, and let's say 8 draw effects (Thoughtcast + Reverse Engineer seem best). Next best improvise spell is Metallic Rebuke - instant speed has very specific implications with tapping down own Winter Orb (so Winter Orb x2 is a direction you could go down). Tag on a pair of Mox Opal and you're at 30 cards done. Blue count is high enough so FoW x4 and about 6 slots to work with.

You stay on Standstill x4 w/ Factories also in the manabase and maybe you want 2x Foundry Assembler to really max out on Factory synergy. Could do Ensnaring Bridge and another wincon (probably a PW, probably Karn). Could be boring and play 4x TNN plus 2x PWs (at this point though, why aren't you playing Merfolk); Misthollow Griffon isn't good, but it's kinda fine with Chrome Mox imprints (recast it later, not really killing the Mox since it improvises), so that's another thing you could do.

For the sake of simplicity with the manabase, let's say 20 lands is correct and you're doing the Factory/Standstill thing: 4x Factory, 4x Ancient Tomb, 6 Fetch, 6 Island.

Removal is the problem in decks like these, not sure how you can fix it and keep the deck focused on 'doing the thing.'

[frustanani]

If you're playing mono-blue not-Merfolk you probably need to try and cheese wins off the back of Chalice. In terms of card draw, within the context of Chalice, your best options are Thoughtcast, Reverse Engineer, Thirst for Knowledge, Search for Azcanta, Standstill, etc... or you go down the Paradoxical Outcome pathway.

Without going down the Paradoxical path the question becomes naming the best 0 or 2 drop artifacts which preferably don't tap such that your deck can utilize the improvise mechanic. At least 8 slots are Spyglass and Chrome Mox (option to play without imprint). Best creature would be Walking Ballista, so now you're at 16 artifacts, and let's say 8 draw effects (Thoughtcast + Reverse Engineer seem best). Next best improvise spell is Metallic Rebuke - instant speed has very specific implications with tapping down own Winter Orb (so Winter Orb x2 is a direction you could go down). Tag on a pair of Mox Opal and you're at 30 cards done. Blue count is high enough so FoW x4 and about 6 slots to work with.

You stay on Standstill x4 w/ Factories also in the manabase and maybe you want 2x Foundry Assembler to really max out on Factory synergy. Could do Ensnaring Bridge and another wincon (probably a PW, probably Karn). Could be boring and play 4x TNN plus 2x PWs (at this point though, why aren't you playing Merfolk); Misthollow Griffon isn't good, but it's kinda fine with Chrome Mox imprints (recast it later, not really killing the Mox since it improvises), so that's another thing you could do.

For the sake of simplicity with the manabase, let's say 20 lands is correct and you're doing the Factory/Standstill thing: 4x Factory, 4x Ancient Tomb, 6 Fetch, 6 Island.

Removal is the problem in decks like these, not sure how you can fix it and keep the deck focused on 'doing the thing.'

I personally think Chalice of the Void decks are good only if they have multiple options of turn 1 to play good spells and/or if they can play any of their cards between first and second turn. It is the case of Dragon Stompy, which is to my view a control deck nowadays
and has the nice Simian Spirit Guide which ables it to play a lot of cc3 killing-cards on turn1
(Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, Trinisphere, Chalice of The Void)
and card disadvantage is sometimes good because their strategy is also based on Ensnaring Bridge.

I think Mono-U with Chalice of the Void would be too inconsistent.

Actually I was thinking of something like that:

3 Mutavault (can be trasformed into a Construct with Retrofitter Foundry and with also Crucible of Worlds it becomes quite funny)
2 Ancient Tomb
2 Wasteland
2 Seat of The Synod
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
6 Island
4 Chrome Mox

4 Retrofitter Foundry
1 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of Worlds

2 Grindstone
3 Painter's Servant

2 Zahid, Djinn of the Lamp
3 Whirler Rogue (whose Thopters can be converted into Constructs with Retrofitter Foundry)

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

2 Whir of Invention

4 Force of Will
1 Flusterstorm
1 Dismember

2 Standstill
3 Reverse Engineer

[P210]

What about some Trinket Mages and/or Trophy Mages to tutor the artifact stuff? And why chrome mox, when you already play crucible? Mox Diamond makes much more sense to me, in this case...

[frustanani]

What about some Trinket Mages and/or Trophy Mages to tutor the artifact stuff?
Trinket Mage can be a 1x only to tutor Walking Ballista or Engineered Explosives
Trophy Mage has no interesting targets
anyway ... mages are slow and sorcery. Whir of Invention is better. A lot.


And why chrome mox, when you already play crucible? Mox Diamond makes much more sense to me, in this case...
a) Mox Diamond needs more lands -> more slots
b) Chrome Mox can be played empty (without sacrificing it) and taps anyway for
Zahid, Djinn of the Lamp
Whir of Invention
Reverse Engineer

[frustanani]

I found this list which is focused on Narset, Parter of Veils' static ability (opponent's can't draw more than one card each turn),
thus making stronger and disruptive other cards
Vendilion Clique
Lore Broker
Day's Undoing
Geier Reach Sanitarium
Mikokoro, Center of the Sea

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=30494&iddeck=258749


3 Vendilion Clique
4 Lore Broker

2 Commandeer
2 Flusterstorm
4 Boomerang
4 Foil
4 Force of Will

4 Day's Undoing
4 Preordain

2 Back to Basics

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Narset, Parter of Veils

4 Chrome Mox

14 Island
1 Blast Zone
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea

Sideboard

2 Commandeer
1 Flusterstorm
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Ravenous Trap
4 Surgical Extraction


very interesting to my view. What do you think of it ?

Maybe Cephalid Coliseum can be added

[schweinefettmann]

I found this list which is focused on Narset, Parter of Veils' static ability (opponent's can't draw more than one card each turn),
thus making stronger and disruptive other cards
Vendilion Clique
Lore Broker
Day's Undoing
Geier Reach Sanitarium
Mikokoro, Center of the Sea

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=30494&iddeck=258749


3 Vendilion Clique
4 Lore Broker

2 Commandeer
2 Flusterstorm
4 Boomerang
4 Foil
4 Force of Will

4 Day's Undoing
4 Preordain

2 Back to Basics

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Narset, Parter of Veils

4 Chrome Mox

14 Island
1 Blast Zone
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea

Sideboard

2 Commandeer
1 Flusterstorm
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Ravenous Trap
4 Surgical Extraction


very interesting to my view. What do you think of it ?

Maybe Cephalid Coliseum can be added

you need a teferi's puzzle box in there, i think. whir-able, so you can drop narset, then go for the puzzle box, and then empty their hand. Not sure if this is fast enough to lock the opponents out. you only need one MD, so if can be used on the off-chance you can't find day's undoing.

Maybe something like static orb, smokestack can be used as well to start nuking lands/hampering mana on their side (or whatever they managed to land before the lock). i'm not convinced boomerang is what your deck wants to do. it's a bit too mana intense for not enough payoff.

[Glass House]

Echo of Eons further strengthens the Narset plan. I'm curious to see how that goes...

[Kagehisa]

Hi guys !

I would to talk a bit about Narset, Parter of Veil, Blast Zone and Force of Negation. I want to try them with Standstill.

With Narset, Parter of Veils in play, if ever you break your own Standstill during your opponent's turn (after their draw phase), they don't get to draw. Which means Standstill is one sided in a way. That is a way to break its symmetrical effect.

Blast Zone is a removal that we can sneak under Standstill. Yes, it is expensive as a 4 mana removal but it allows us to play Standstill from (slightly) behind on board.

Force of Negation lets us play a deck with 8 Forces and we play a mono blue deck so the color requirement is not a probleme, obviously. The thing is that with 8 Forces, we have more chances to draw one of them with Standstill to counter what the opponent played. It just makes Standstill better. 8 Forces also means we can counter the turn 1 Aether Vial or Chalice of the Void more often and drop the Standstill behind.

So with that in mind, I can imagine a mono blue Landstill


4 Standstill

4 Energy Field
3 Oblivion Stone
4 True-Name Nemesis

3 Narset, Parter of Veils
4 Force of Will
4 Force of Negation
2 Counterspell

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

2 Blast Zone
10 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta


In the Sideboard


Back to Basics
Flusterstorm
Counterbalance
Thing in the Ice
Engineered Explosives
Vendilion Clique
Hydroblast
Piracy Charm
Dismember

etc

Note : Energy Field. Some people are not familiar with this card or how to play this card. First, it sucks against discard deck like Grixis Delver, UB Shadow (Delver and discard) or TES (army of goblins and discard) but if ever it sticks, it buys you a lot of time/life.

Before playing it : unload your hand. Trade one for one to make room in your hand and avoid losing Energy Field to the discard phase. Play it, make land drops and try to reach another Energy Field or Oblivion Stone or load your hand with cantrips/Narset, play cantrips, find Energy Field #2 or Oblivion Ring. Clean the board and drop Standstill.

If you need more explanations, feel free to ask but I am the one who needs advices.

I don't own Force of Negation yet.

Thank you for reading !

[frustanani]

Hi guys ! ...


4 Standstill

4 Energy Field
3 Oblivion Stone
4 True-Name Nemesis

3 Narset, Parter of Veils
4 Force of Will
4 Force of Negation
2 Counterspell

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain

2 Blast Zone
10 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta

.....

Thank you for reading !

standstill does nothing in your list because you don't have Delver of Secrets or Mishra's Factory to be able to force your opponent to break it. If you play it on turn 2, your opponents simply don't care and don't let you draw 3. Most times you just cannot play it on turn 2.
Too my view, 18 lands are too few to play standstill because when you play it on turn 2, there are few possibilities that you find one of you other 15/16 lands, while your opponent might play more lands than you. For sure they are too few to activate Oblivion Stone.

With Narset, Parter of Veils on battlefield, good cards are:
Day's Undoing
Echo of Eons (you can tutor it with Quiet Speculation or discard it via Foil)
Vendilion Clique
Arcane Denial
Cephalid Coliseum (target your opponent)

Your description of Energy Field is correct
... BUT ...
it's week against too many cards you cannot even counter and you have to sacrifice it anyway (card disadvantage)
Pyroblast from any deck running red g2 and g3
Wasteland on one of your fetches
thoughtseize, Tendrils of Agony, Liliana of the Veil ..
Abrupt Decay, Assassin's Trophy
Flickerwisp
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn & Show and Tell (you better counter it)
Council's Judgment (and Miracle's Jace, The Mind Sculptor still kills you)
... which means way too many decks.

..................................

If your will is to play Landstill (with "Lands") and more free spells, I suggest you to try something like this

2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Prismatic Vista
6 Island
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
2 Wasteland .............. total 20

4 Delver of Secrets
4 True-Name Nemesis
3 Pteramander

3 Standstill

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Chart a Course
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
1 Commandeer
3 Vapor Snag
2 Psionic Blast
1 Archmage's Charm

Sideboard:
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Basilisk Collar or Umezawa's Jitte
1 Walking Ballista or Masticore
1 Marrow Shards or Dismember
1 Divert
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Pithing Needle
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Powder Keg
1 Teferi's Response

Force of Negation is not a very good card in legacy to my view ... can counter just planeswalkers and few interesting sorceries.
Misdirection and Commandeer are better to my view because they allow you to protect your play (for exaple Nemesis or Standstill sorcery speed) and you can use your opponent's spell as a threat for themself.

[Kagehisa]

Thank you Frustanani and sorry for the late reply. I couldn't log in for unknown reasons earlier but I can assure you that I've read your post many times.

You are right, I forgot to put pressure in my plan. I was so focused on the other new cards that I forgot what Standstill needs to founction haha I still refuse to put manland in a Back to Basics deck though. I just remember now why Mono Blue Landstill has tension with Back to Basics.

I won't try Standstill in MUC again.

I posted a 58 cards list. I cannot count. Sorry about that but 2 Island are missing.

I am a huge fan of MU Tempo or MU Stifle Dreadnought and I find your work very good in other threads. It is just that MUC is missing few pieces to become playable again ( some removal and sweeper or we are to any creature decks lol ) and the other hand we have strong cards like Narset, Parter of Veils, Accumulated Knowledge, the 12 cantrips, Back to Basics, Counterbalance, Jace, the Mind sculptor, Force of Will, Snapcaster Mage, Vendilion Clique, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm but we cannot be a deck because we die to creature deck. Ridiculous haha

[Von]

I think to run MUC successfully we have to take a look at what MUC brings that splashing color doesn't.

1. Not weak to blood moon or nonbasic land hate.
2. Consistently produce UUU or UUUUU
3. Devotion,

I think for MUC to be a worthwell deck we need to leverage UUU spells as much as possible, luckily we got archmages charm, CCommand or invoke prejudice.
Next I think we need to leveage bnb as much as possible.4
If your deck doesn't run these things, there;s no advantage to to MUC. Just go miracles and get it over with .