[Bainstorming] Troll + Jitte

[Fazzoletti]

Hy There
i was wandering if you might want to help me.
I am playing a lot of Funkbrew (on MWS) in a lot of different setups these days and i noticed a really interesting Phenomenon: Nobody can handle a Troll Ascetic equipped with a Jitte, lots of people even scoop when they see them together. Now i am thinking about a way to abuse that, and i hope you can help me.

The Goal
The goal is to get the Troll and Jitte on the board safe on turn 4 (3 would be better but hey i cant wish for the impossible can i?)

Ok now lets hear what you think

[Tano]

if you get a troll with jitte in turn 4 or maybe in turn 3, you often have already lost the game in legacy.... thats the problem.

The only way to support your idea in legacy is a "green" stompy deck, that provodes chalice of the void, trinisphere and........ : Troll ascetic and jitte!!

hooray, thats what u are looking for and this kind of deck will have a chance in legacy.

So long, amigo :)

[Fazzoletti]

That is something i don't really understand, i keep on reading that turn 3 is a critical turn and a lot (imo is a lot way more than 50%) are decided on that turn. But that is something i never really experienced in any game i played.

Yeah my experience is 100% MWS based, never played a real opponent on a real table but i don't understand that there is such a big difference. I think i played against almost every deck to beat and a lot of other random stuff and i never had the problem to turn the favor of the game around on turn 7 8 or 9 i know that gobbos should have killed me by than, but normally i dont just sit there draw a card and say go, i do stuff to disrupt there game i kill there gobbos and lie my own stuff down. The same is with combo, i know Combo normally does not care what i am playing they just do what they like and go off when they can but that does mostly not happen turn 3 more like 4 or 5.

So i don't get the argument that the game is decided on turn 3

[Thomas1991]

Sure it can in legacy

make some kind of rock deck with the troll and jitte

the regenerate ability is greet with deed.

Genesis
deed
eternal witness
tarmogoyf
hymn
thoughtseize/duress/therapy
engineered explosives

al strong cards you can play in the rock

but i don't know if you should run the deck just geen black or splash red (moons, terminate enz) of with white (vindicate, stp enz) and if you should play loam and/or dark confidant.

[FoolofaTook]

So i don't get the argument that the game is decided on turn 3

The game is decided by turn three about a third of the time in my experience. That's when TES, FT, Ichorid or Belcher is pretty much guaranteed to be able to go off absent enormous disruption. That's when Landstill or Dreadstill will have dropped Standstill and be sitting watching you. That's when Threshold will have likely dropped Counterbalance and be sitting watching you. That's when Goblins will be coming in with enough to put you on life support with a Rishadan Port on the board really restricting your options.

If you have a very disruptive theme you can push the effective turn back by a bit but otherwise you really need to be either setting up a soft control lock or racing them to that turn.

The other two thirds of the time the draw was not great for your opponent and you have maybe an extra few turns to effectively win in. If you're going to play a deck that loses a third of their games to the meta by turn 3 with little recourse you have to win a huge percentage of the other games just to break even.

[Mordenkaynen]

The Goal
The goal is to get the Troll and Jitte on the board safe on turn 4 (3 would be better but hey i cant wish for the impossible can i?)

1. Acceleration:
Ritual allows you to play 3d turn troll+Jitte or (better vs daze (really?) and artifact destruction) turn 4 Jitte+equip.
Mox allows turn 2 troll, turn 3 Jitte+equip (if you are lucky with lands: Jitte+equip the same turn is 4 mana).
Petal/spirit guide accelerate ascetic, but doesn't allow to attack with Jitte next turn
2. Big troll.
Rancor is awesome with ascetic (5/2 trample regenerate shroud).
Troll has a problematic mana cost. gg in it's cost is bad if you want to run him in monoG chalice aggro, because of 4 city and 4 tombs. Well, not really may be.
Remember about needle on regeneration (with it he can be champ blocked even while rancored).
Regeneration cost is 1g, so even if you got turn 3 troll-Jitte-attack you can't regenerate him. It is so slow that, of course he must be supported by heavy disruption, like thoughtseize, hymn.. deed. Deed with him has activation cost 2x. Well.. it's better to smash the table before you land troll. All these seems terribly slow. But let's think about what would we cast BEFORE the troll? If it's th-seize, goyf, then troll Jitte, it's interesting) What are other variants? We can't expect this start in every game. What cards would we include also? Would we include 1cc discard or moxen + chalice? (imo second is better because of filtering combo and fast spell throwing decks; however it doesn't protect from grip and forbids rancor).
3. Jitte.
Jitte is huge when used with right creatures. In bg I can remember black knight, specter, order.., goyf, wild mongel (not nowadays may be), river/mire boa.. as you can see not many of them are fast and aggressive enough (without Jitte). Well, someone knows this list better than I do.
Needle, grip. Other art. destruction. Opposing Jitte (in what decks?). Deed. All of them have to be well thought before you can say "if I landed troll + Jitte, you lose".
4. Other notes.
The issue is: is the troll + Jitte an overkill?
Needle is a bitch (weakens each of our "great cards"). Use EE? Putrefy? (actually, the same cost; I think EE is better, especially as a sweeper after chalice@1).
Even now when we (some of us) don't know all the types of deck that can be built with this, I think it would be a grave-independent deck. With so heavy creatures and need of disruption leaves no room for unnecessary recursion.

[Jaiminho]

If I Brainstorm into Troll, I send it back and activate my Fetchland.

FoolofaTook speaks the truth. You'll be trying to drop a Troll when Standstill is already on the table or after you've taken Tendrils for 20+ life or when looking at an army of 12+ 1/1 goblins (or around 4 2/2 ones) or when a much bigger creature stares at you on the other side of the table... Et caetera.

Also, your card duo won't be online until the second turn after it has been played, since Troll does nothing if you have no mana available to regenerate it.

[Barook]

Some time ago, I made a G/B Rock variant which should be more resilient to non-basic hate. After toying around, I got that list and it performed quite well (but I never did deeper testing due to a lack of time and interest in Magic):

6 [RAV] Forest (1)
3 [UNH] Swamp
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [A] Bayou

4 [8E] Birds of Paradise
4 [9E] Llanowar Elves
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [10E] Troll Ascetic
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
4 [FD] Eternal Witness

4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [RAV] Putrefy

The mana dudes serve as Therapy fodder, equipment carriers and, of course, mana accel. I guess this probably something you're looking for because you have a good disruption suite combined with midrange beats - plus, you can play Tarmogoyf with equipment!

[Valtrix]

I just want to point out that troll + jitte is not a deck. It's not really a combo either. It won't win you game straight out. All it is a good combination of two cards, little more. Trying to make a deck "based around" accelerating a troll and jitte into play just isn't going to work well. Constructing a deck meant to do that is just a bad idea...THere's better things to accelerate into, and you won't always have the two cards at the same time. Troll + jitte takes awhile to get online anyway, and counterspells are going to ruin that strategy pretty easily.

If you want this sort of interaction, look to some form of the rock that has this guy and the equipment you're looking for. That'll probably be your best best

(Sorry if that sounded a bit angry...It's just that while these two cards are good, it's not really game-breaking in any way. Decks might not be able to "deal with it" directly, but they can deal with it by still winning the game.)

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Some time ago, I made a G/B Rock variant which should be more resilient to non-basic hate. After toying around, I got that list and it performed quite well (but I never did deeper testing due to a lack of time and interest in Magic):

6 [RAV] Forest (1)
3 [UNH] Swamp
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [A] Bayou

4 [8E] Birds of Paradise
4 [9E] Llanowar Elves
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [10E] Troll Ascetic
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
4 [FD] Eternal Witness

4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [RAV] Putrefy

The mana dudes serve as Therapy fodder, equipment carriers and, of course, mana accel. I guess this probably something you're looking for because you have a good disruption suite combined with midrange beats - plus, you can play Tarmogoyf with equipment!

bird + jitte isnt that good

[kicks_422]

Turn 2 Troll and Turn 3 Jitte equip swing is.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Ok, I built this deck up a few months ago but later abandoned it because I started playing Aggro Loam and Dredge. Here is Mid-Range Aggro.dec:

4x Birds of Paradise
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Loxodon Hierarch (SOOO GOOD)
4x Trygon Predator
4x Troll Ascetic (originally this was Ledgewalker but Troll was just better)
4x Anurid Brushhopper

4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Jitte
2x Sword of Fire and Ice

4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Savannah
4x Tropical Island
1x Tundra
4x Forest
1x Island
1x Plains

This deck is suprisingly good and I am sure it can be tweaked to be better but I LOVE the creature base in it. Loxodon Hierarch is so good and the Brushhopper is also just great but it has never really found a home. Trygon Predator is a sick and nasty underplayed tier 1 card that fucks up a LOT of decks in this format. The reason I abandoned this deck is because it ended up being like B/W Confidant and Rock-Style decks in that it is an overall solid performing deck but it isn't great at anything. Meaning, it doesn't have matchups that are woefully in its favor, everything is like a 50-55% matchup game 1 which is fine but it just not my kind of deck. However, something like this would hand Threshold its ass which is another reason I like it!

However, if you want a starting base, here it is, this deck went about 4/6 against Eva Green and 3/6 against Goblins but this is nothing that a few Hail Storm in the SB can't fix! Those are the only decks I tested it against but it has a bad Dredge match (what doesn't g1?), it basically can't beat combo, and I would guess the Landstill match could go either way but it would probably be in their favor. But this is a very solid deck and I would encourage anyone who wants to to test it out and tell me what they think.

[FoolofaTook]

The way that Troll Ascetic might be good is as a mid-game device if you are playing sweepers and can somehow play your sweeper and also afford to regenerate him. That would make the Jitte + Troll not very effective since most sweepers would take the Jitte also, however Troll on his own might be interesting in that scenario.

In the way, way, way back there was a very effective UBR deck that used Sedge Trolls and Nevinyrall's Disk to make people very unhappy in the late game after things had settled down. It played Will O'Wisps as the early blocker and used just Wisps, Mishra's Factories and Sedge Trolls as it's creatures. It used Lightning Bolts and Fireballs off of Mana Drain as it's dual-purpose to the face and creature removal and it had disks to sweep everything clean.

It was slow but effective, and then suddenly it was too slow and couldn't beat anything. I suspect that a similar theme today would have an even more pronounced problem in getting to the mid game.

[Thomas1991]

why does'nt anyone ever gives a feedback on my posts?

I'm feeling like the invisable man :p

[Puzzle]

why does'nt anyone ever gives a feedback on my posts?

I'm feeling like the invisable man :pBecause people are nice and don't want to point out that you'll rarely activate Deed for more than 2, meaning the regeneration of the Troll isn't that relevant in that respect (or any other for that matter, given its cost).
Capitalizing (yes, it's a word ; I have decided it is) your sentences and avoiding spelling mistakes would be nice too.

That said, I think the Deed / Explosives approach is the right one, as it solves many of the issues generated by the slowliness of the Troll. That just probably calls for acceleration and SoFI rather than Jitte though.

[Fazzoletti]

Hehe ok fisrt Thank you for your imput

so you are pointing out that i should play exactly the deck i am currently playing maybe not in its current state but the them seams right.

Just for referenced here is my current deck list:

// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [R] Savannah
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [MM] Swamp (2)
2 [CHK] Plains (4)
2 [6E] Forest (4)
2 [R] Bayou
2 [R] Scrubland
2 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [MR] Troll Ascetic
3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
3 [AP] Spectral Lynx
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [AP] Vindicate
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [PLC] Extirpate
4 [FUT] Glittering Wish

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
SB: 1 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 1 [TSB] Mystic Enforcer
SB: 1 [IN] Dueling Grounds
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void


It kind of evolved (for me) from Rockin Funkbrew.
From you're input i understand that i should not focus on getting the Troll and jitte out just keep on disrupting my opponent?

PS: I still have to say that i don't like Goyf but everybody and there mother say i have to add them

[Pulp_Fiction]

So it is a newer version of PT Junk (old skool) that has even less synergy with Deeds? Don't use Glittering Wish man, for a while I ran it in an aggro deck in Standard as a 3 of, it was to slow .... so in legacy it is pretty much a average control card and to slow for anything else. Don't run Extirpate with no hand disruption, I realize Extirpate is good in its own but this deck seems very unfocused and it seems like you are just taking good cards and jamming them together. What is going to make a deck like this work is synergies. The Rock approach is such a boring and overdone thing. See if we can try and build an interesting deck. Look at my deck list on this post, this is IMOP the direction a deck like this should go, it is semi-unoriginal but not really.

[lunar_eternal_blue]

Alright, now this is probably a horrible idea, but it might be interesting:

4 Troll Ascetic
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
3 Slippery Bogle

3 Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

3 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
3 Snakeform

3 Chrome Mox
3 Propaganda
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance

4 Tropical Island
4 Breeding Pool
3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Island
2 Forest

In my experience, counter top in a deck with a fair amount of 3cc cards is really good. In this deck, none of the creatures can be targeted by the opponent. This makes all non-mass removal cards dead against the deck. It also uses control elements like force, daze, propaganda, snakeform (this card is weird I know but I like it), stifle, and counter top to hold the opponent off.
The chrome mox are there for acceleration, but I was thinking wasteland could work here too for more disruption (works well with stifle).

This is basically a control approach that uses creatures you don't have to worry about protecting (except from mass removal), and equipment as the win condition.

[Omega]

19 creatures

4 birds of paradise
4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
4 troll ascetic
3 eternal witness

lands 21
4 wasteland
4 bayou
6 fetch (4 windswept, 2 bloodstained)
4 forest
3 swamp

21
4 thoughtseize
4 cabal therapy
4 smother
3 umezawa's jitte
2 rancor
2 putrefy
2 sensei's divining top

just a suggestion :)

Robert

[FoolofaTook]

Alright, now this is probably a horrible idea, but it might be interesting:

4 Troll Ascetic
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
3 Slippery Bogle

3 Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

3 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
3 Snakeform

3 Chrome Mox
3 Propaganda
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance

4 Tropical Island
4 Breeding Pool
3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Island
2 Forest

In my experience, counter top in a deck with a fair amount of 3cc cards is really good. In this deck, none of the creatures can be targeted by the opponent. This makes all non-mass removal cards dead against the deck. It also uses control elements like force, daze, propaganda, snakeform (this card is weird I know but I like it), stifle, and counter top to hold the opponent off.
The chrome mox are there for acceleration, but I was thinking wasteland could work here too for more disruption (works well with stifle).

This is basically a control approach that uses creatures you don't have to worry about protecting (except from mass removal), and equipment as the win condition.


11 creatures, 5 equipment and almost no draw/filter to speak of. That makes this DoA a large part of the time just to your own draw. For 3 Jittes and 2 SoFI you probably want at least 18 creatures in the deck or cantrips to get you to the 11 you have.

[lunar_eternal_blue]

I guess I would make the following changes:

-3 propaganda
-3 chrome mox
-3 snake form

+3 wasteland
+ 4 brainstorm
+ 2 ponder

I usually play threshold, so I am definitely a fan of cantrips. Now with 6 of them along with 3 top, (and sword of fire and ice kind of) there shouldn't be too much difficulty finding the right cards. I might even go down a jitte for another ponder, but jitte is kind of important to the deck.

[FoolofaTook]

Maybe even 4 Ponder and 2 Brainstorm. That, along with the SDT's gives you a much better chance to dig down to your creatures early on.

[RockOfTheFormat]

add 2 mana lands to this... stompy package > fast mana

[herbig]

add 2 mana lands to this... stompy package > fast mana

Stompy package is greater than fast mana? I don't get it.

That's a lot of equipment for 11 creatures to handle. You'll often have your guys cleared and end up drawing artifacts.

Oh oh, Muddle the Mixture! Counters stuff and gets your jitte or Ledgewalker ASAP.