[Discussion] VoroshStill vs Its the Fear

[Fossil4182]

I've been looking at both of these decks for a while now and both seem to have some potential as being a great deck in Legacy. Kevin Binswanger suggested that Voroshstill has the edge over Its the Fear because of "the sturdier manabase and a perceived better resistance to early game assaults" Both decks pack cards like P. Deed, Countertop, Tarmogoyf ect. However the deck are quite different from one another and deserve some attention.

VoroshStill

Maindeck:
Artifacts
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Crucible Of Worlds

Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf

Enchantments
4 Standstill
3 Counterbalance
3 Pernicious Deed

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force Of Will
3 Smother

Lands
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Breeding Pool

Sideboard:
4 Hydroblast
3 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
3 Thoughtseize
2 Krosan Grip

vs

Its the Fear

Maindeck
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Counterspell
1 Life from the Loam
4 Intuition
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Eternal Witness
4 Force of Will
2 Engineered Explosives

Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Krosan Grip
2 Life from the Loam
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Blue Elemental Blast

I think Its the Fear plays more like a control deck with Intuition, Shackles, StP and Life from the Loam. However Voroshstill has Edicts, more Engineered Explosives, Manalands/Wastelands + Crucible Of Worlds and Standstill. It may be a preference or maybe one is really superior to the other. At any rate, I thought this would make a good discussion to see which one ends up getting the edge or why you would play one over the other in any given instance.

[Bardo]

^^ Witness what two Legacy deck designers do with their dissatisfaction of Psychatog in Legacy. :)

[Goaswerfraiejen]

^^ Witness what two Legacy deck designers do with their dissatisfaction of Psychatog in Legacy. :)

...Not run it in either posted list? Both lists seem rather creature-lighter than I remember.

[Bardo]

I meant that both Vorosh and ITF are evolutions of Psychatog, in part. Dave said he started down the road to ITF when someone asked him for a Tog list over PM. And Vorosh evolved from my old Tog deck (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/11397.html) (which was templated from Kenji Tsumura's Tog deck from GP Beijing).

[Mister Agent]

I actually like both decks on what they do in the format.

Intuition vs Standstill

-These two draw engines are vastly different but they generally produce similiar results for their respected decks.

-Standstill is the main reason why landstill is still a deck to beat in the format. Standstill is definitely the best hard card drawer in the format in the right deck.

-Intuition on the other hand is just like fact or fiction in ITF except extremely efficient since it costs less and ITF is designed for the card.

-Intuition sacrifices raw power for versatility and resilency when compared to standstill but still produces huge outcomes in ITF.

I would also like to note that both Voroshstill and ITF can play as pure control decks as well with their respected draw engines. Both decks can also shift gears easily anytime and play aggro-control or control-aggro as well.

ITF does run swords to plowshares which is obviously brilliant against vast multiple of decks in legacy. Which is a substantial reason to run the 4th color white at the expense of having a fragile manabase. However for Bardo's deck you have a more stable manabase but can still run efficient removal like edict, smother, etc. Even though none of the black removal even compares to stp. But that's a balance of sacrificing that you have to consider when playing either deck for tournaments.

[Deep6er]

There are a couple of things that I don't like about VoroshStill though.

1) I hate Smother. Swords is straight up better. There's no argument.

2) Random one-of Crucible? It's not something you can rely on. Sure, you have arguments for being able to find it (Top, Brainstorm, Standstill), but it's not something you can reliably see with excellent efficiency.

3) 4 cards at the three cost slot? That means that if Threshold lands a Counterbalance against you first, they can effectively keep you off a HUGE portion of your gameplan. Then, with intelligent gaming around Explosives, keep you from playing any real magic. It's the Fear has multiple answers to that, and better ways of playing Magic under an opposing Counterbalance.

Those things are what originally made me like It's the Fear. If anyone cares to look back at the recent Mana Leak Day 1 (here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7680)) you'll see that I played something similar to VoroshStill. Another David Gearhart creation by the name of "Celebrate Relentlessness". What irked me about that build, was the fact that you still want to play Magic. Standstill is great, but for decks that utilize Counter/Top, you still want to play Magic. Standstill is kind of against you continuing to play Magic. The point of Counterbalance is to fulfill a similar purpose to Standstill. Generating card advantage, while not allowing your opponent to play Magic. However, Counterbalance generally accomplishes this plan better than Standstill does. That's my gripe with Standstill, I believe that it's outclassed by Counterbalance.

[HammafistRoob]

Voroshstill runs both CB and Standstill

[Deep6er]

Yeah, that's my point?

[Dont_Stop_Believin]

I dislike Voroshstill because basically it is an inferior version of Landstill, one with no STP, and lesser removal, as Deep6er stated. I really dont like how its repeatedly championed about on this and other sites by a certain moderator as if its some revolutionary thing, I mean I could take a tier 1 deck and make it 6 cards worse also...

The name is also terrible :frown:

[Nihil Credo]

I dislike Voroshstill because basically it is an inferior version of Landstill, one with no STP, and lesser removal, as Deep6er stated. I really dont like how its repeatedly championed about on this and other sites by a certain moderator as if its some revolutionary thing, I mean I could take a tier 1 deck and make it 6 cards worse also...

The name is also terrible :frown:

There is an art of expressing otherwise sensible criticism without coming off like an ass, and I think you still need a lot of practice.

That aside, VoroshStill may not be the coolest name ever, but at least I can say it aloud without feeling like a Corporate Marketing Assistant.

[Mister Agent]

I dislike Voroshstill because basically it is an inferior version of Landstill, one with no STP, and lesser removal, as Deep6er stated. I really dont like how its repeatedly championed about on this and other sites by a certain moderator as if its some revolutionary thing, I mean I could take a tier 1 deck and make it 6 cards worse also...

The name is also terrible :frown:

I think you also should try out a deck first before dissmissing it. You also can't really compare Voroshstill to something like UWb landstill considering both decks can play entirely different.

Sure UWb landstill has Voroshstill beat in the pure control department but that doesn't mean that Voroshstill isn't worth exploring. However voroshstill is efficient at switching roles and I think if you know when to switch roles voroshstill can be potent in legacy environments.

[Deep6er]

I'm confused. Does It's the Fear sound like something that would come from a Corporate Marketing Assistant?

Honestly, my deck names are pretty simple. Usually it's because they're stupid. I don't particularly care if people like names like "Solidarity", or "It's the Fear" because I like them a lot.

I think this one is actually decent because it ties into what the deck want to accomplish (which is to put the fear of God in you with Counterbalance).

Although I'm still curious if it sounds like something a Marketing guy would come up with.

Marketing guys in Italy would be weird then.

[Dont_Stop_Believin]

That aside, VoroshStill may not be the coolest name ever, but at least I can say it aloud without feeling like a Corporate Marketing Assistant.

Why not compare these decks to traditional Uwbg Landstill, or WitchMawNephilimStill, as Im sure a certain Mod would advocate we call it :rolleyes:

[Bardo]

1) I hate Smother. Swords is straight up better. There's no argument.

No argument.

I go back to the 4c (Swords) version every so often and then have that "Wasteland + Consistency vs. StP + 'less so'" argument every so often. It's not an open and shut sort of thing. For me, anyway.

In the abstract, yeah, StP is just so much better than anything else competing for spot removal at that cost, but, it's a little more complex when you begin to build your manabase and want to consistently hit all of your colored mana requirements in the face of hate, bad luck, etc.


2) Random one-of Crucible?

It looks weird, yeah; but it feels right. It's nice to occasionally draw into, but it isn't central to the deck either. It seems to come up in the right match-ups at the right time, but I'll definitely concede it's more an "intuition-thing" (not the card), rather than logical idea. I'm not sure if the correct number of Crucibles should be 0, 1 or 2. Again, after hundreds of games, 1 seems like the right number, for now and in the match-us I generally expect.


3) 4 cards at the three cost slot?

Well, there isn't all that much you need to hit at 3 (mostly 1s and 2s) and you have more 3s in the board (when you're more likely to face post-SB Grips anyway).

Against opposing CBs, you have Deed and EE for UUG or something.


Standstill is kind of against you continuing to play Magic. The point of Counterbalance is to fulfill a similar purpose to Standstill. Generating card advantage, while not allowing your opponent to play Magic. However, Counterbalance generally accomplishes this plan better than Standstill does. That's my gripe with Standstill, I believe that it's outclassed by Counterbalance.

Standstill plays a funny role in Vorosh, it isn't one-dimensional. Sometimes, you can just throw it down, tapping a Factory to pay the colored cost, to gain a modest psychological edge against weaker opponents, buy some breathing room to play out your plentiful lands or playing it when you're ahead on the board (an unopposed or overpowering Tarmogoyf, etc.). Sometimes Standstill just lets you play a more traditional Landstill/Draw-Go role; other times it's a reload like Ancestral Visions in T2 U/B Faeries.

Counterbalance in similar in letting you play different games at different times. Often, it just generates pivotal card advantage; protects resources; or just annoys the fuck out of your opponent. It depends.

Anyway, they're different cards that do different things in the same deck and they play along well with each other.


I dislike Voroshstill because basically it is an inferior version of Landstill

It's a hybrid of a couple of decks. You could also say it's a slower version of Threshold...


The name is also terrible

Meh. To me, it's no worse than "Boros" (R/W aggro) or "Azorius" (U/W control); that's the place (http://sales.starcitygames.com//carddisplay.php?product=44708) it's coming from: an in-game reference to the color combination.


Why not compare these decks to traditional Uwbg Landstill, or WitchMawNephilimStill, as Im sure a certain Mod would advocate we call it

Because, it's more mid-range/aggro than a more traditional Landstill. And call it whatever you want, it doesn't matter to me. And knock off the "a certain Mod" thing.

[Mister Agent]

I actually like diabolic edict in the smother slots but that's because I'd rather be safe then sorry in a random format like legacy. Although I am not sure which one is better but for now since edict can remove more spectrum of creatures I will remain with it. Considering with this change I actually run more blue/hydroblasts in the board as they are relevant in taking care of goblin lackeys and such.

Vorosh Landstill has a stable manabase and even in the face of general land disruption one crucible is all the deck needs. Voroshstill is resilient enough to where it doesn't need to heavily rely on crucible or else Vorosh would run more of them.

[freakish777]

creation by the name of "Celebrate Relentlessness".

LOL, out of curiosity, if you made a revision to that deck, would you change it's name to "Menace to Society" ??

[Deep6er]

Definite high-fives for knowing the reference.

And... yes, I totally would. It'd be fucking sweet.

[landstill101]

The one thing that hasn't been mentioned, is that ITF got to fame with the list that had 2 maindeck togs, which in my opinion and experience of playing the deck for about a month now is prob one of the worst things you could take out of the deck, I would rather take out white and swords before tog. I think the deck should be changed to the list that actually won a tourny not his new list which hasn't been proven yet. For matchups both decks do very well against the meta, but if you put them against each other, ITF should always win the battle because of the recursion of any creature and the artifacts and such. With ITF I have not lost a long battled out game yet because of all the recursion.

[TopGun]

For matchups both decks do very well against the meta, but if you put them against each other, ITF should always win the battle because of the recursion of any creature and the artifacts and such. With ITF I have not lost a long battled out game yet because of all the recursion.

Really? I haven't tested them against each other yet, but I would have bet on VoroshStill because of the more mana + wastelands. Usually in control vs. control matchups, mana superiority is what wins it. I was gonna test this match soon anyway though...so, I'll either be able to verify your results, or call you a filthy liar. :tongue:

[landstill101]

Really? I haven't tested them against each other yet, but I would have bet on VoroshStill because of the more mana + wastelands. Usually in control vs. control matchups, mana superiority is what wins it. I was gonna test this match soon anyway though...so, I'll either be able to verify your results, or call you a filthy liar. :tongue:

Well the one Thing I can say to this and I'll let your testing prove if i'm right or not is that in VoroshStill, you have 1 Crucible and thats it, you have to draw it, but in ITF, you have intuition to grab loam, ruins and stronghold. which if done, makes Voroshstill shit himself because he can't stop the recursion now.

[Illissius]

That's unless they have Countertop.

[Hanni]

but in ITF, you have intuition to grab loam, ruins and stronghold. which if done, makes Voroshstill shit himself because he can't stop the recursion now.

Intuition has to resolve first. Though I do believe Intuition is much stronger.

However, it's only going to matter in game 1... postboard, the matchup is going to be all about Extirpate and Counterbalance control.

The other thing I'd like to mention is that comparing ITF to Vorosh is on the same level as comparing it to actual Landstill (and even Dreadstill). What I mean is, Intuition changes the entire dynamics of the deck... so even though both decks are control decks running Deed, Counterbalance, and Goyf, they are still very different.

[Anusien]

Pretty sure that comparing them head to head is like comparing Ponza to RDW or Sligh: pretty freaking useless. You have to look at them in the context of the metagames in which they will be played. I would doubt that one deck is strictly better than the other so you have to look at which games are better or worse for either deck.

The difference is basically this:
It's the Fear:
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Counterbalance
1 Life from the Loam
4 Intuition
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins

VoroshStill:
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible Of Worlds
4 Standstill
1 Counterspell
3 Smother
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Breeding Pool

VoroshStill has 3 extra lands, different removal, and Crucible + Standstill instead of Intuition + Witness, Loam and the Shackles. Then VoroshStill (in that list) has the 4th Counterspell instead of the 4th Counterbalance.

So basically, can you afford to wait the extra turn to play Intuition instead of Standstill, and do you need the extra lands or the recursion engine? Ironically I decided to not play a more midrangey deck for once and looked at VoroshStill because I felt like I needed the lands and would rather not wait for my draw.

A lot of this may be determined by the players you play with too. David Gearheart may feel that he needs some extra attrition abilities to win close games with some of the better Threshold players that live in his area. I felt that basically the only way I lose a lot of my games in the metagame I was playing in was to get screwed on mana or lose my win conditions to Extirpate, so I went with the (seemingly) more robust deck.

I'm definitely not trying to say VS or ITF is better or worse definitively. For my purposes with a lack of testing, I picked up VS to learn. I am definitely attracted to ITF as well, but I've been burned by too many Intuition-Loam decks.

[TopGun]

Well the one Thing I can say to this and I'll let your testing prove if i'm right or not is that in VoroshStill, you have 1 Crucible and thats it, you have to draw it, but in ITF, you have intuition to grab loam, ruins and stronghold. which if done, makes Voroshstill shit himself because he can't stop the recursion now.

In my testing, at least 1st game, I do have to give the nod to ITF. The recursion doesn't play nice with no access to extirpate. Apart from the busted early goyf/standstill beatings, it didn't feel like Vorosh had much chance in the long game.

Also, the shackles, witness, and goyf can all be placed on top of your library with the recursion lands to give you the right cost to use counterbalance effectively.

Anyway, I don't recommend choosing one over the other based on just this particular matchup. There are so many viable tourney worthy decks to choose from, you'd really be beating the odds to run into each other.

All this is IMHO.
-TG

[Fossil4182]

The idea's been floated or at least alluded to, but what about cutting White from Its the Fear? I know that StP is by far the best creature removal in the format and having access to it gives you a great answer. However Ghastly Demise, Smother and Edict all provide quick answers although not as good as StP. The more stable mana base improves your matchup against decks that would exploit the weaker mana base of the deck.

Also, landstill101

I could not find the list with 2 Togs in it so if you know where it is, I would change the deck list that I have.

[kicks_422]

Forgive me for asking, but isn't playing Deed alongside Counterbalance dissynergy? Or is it simply waiting for the right time to play both of them?

[Nihil Credo]

Basically, if you've got CounterTop going, chances are you won't have to Deed the board away anytime soon. Just don't drop turn 2 Cbalance after your opponent opens with Vial or Ancient Tomb...

[Fossil4182]

Forgive me for asking, but isn't playing Deed alongside Counterbalance dissynergy? Or is it simply waiting for the right time to play both of them?

It would seem like it, however getting a counter top engine up and running gives such control over the board that its worth running. Deed will blow it up on occasion, but it gives you the reset button that Threshold lacks and Deed is simply one of the best cards and Legacy. Ideally, you put out Eternal Witness when you blow Deed and use Stronghold to recur Deed. Running 4 Counterbalance usually means that if you need to blow Deed, odds are you'll be able to resolve a second one fairly quickly.

[Anusien]

I strongly believe Pernicious Deed is the best card in Legacy right now. It's worth the occasional dis-synergy to run the card.

[frogboy]

I like ITF's engine, but I'm more of a fan of how Vorosh can actually make all of it's land drops. Someone should hybridize the two abilities.

[Anusien]

I like ITF's engine, but I'm more of a fan of how Vorosh can actually make all of it's land drops. Someone should hybridize the two abilities.
You mean, run more than 20 lands in a control deck that wants to hit at least its first 4 land drops using only Brainstorm to dig? That's one of the biggest boons to Vorosh in my opinion; not losing to worse players because of mana screw.

[Deep6er]

Just as an aside, if either of you cared to look in the It's the Fear thread, you'd see that I'm testing 23 lands. Reading is tech. :)

[Happy Gilmore]

Just as an aside, if either of you cared to look in the It's the Fear thread, you'd see that I'm testing 23 lands. Reading is tech. :)

Is one of those lands a Cephalid Coliseum? I would give you a major high five for building a very simple card drawing engine into your Loam strategy.

[Deep6er]

No, Coliseum would be terrible in It's the Fear. Wasting a land drop is awful. Coliseum fits into other decks, not It's the Fear.

[Happy Gilmore]

No, Coliseum would be terrible in It's the Fear. Wasting a land drop is awful. Coliseum fits into other decks, not It's the Fear.

You have the LFTl, you have the engine... it could be good. It was the nutz in extended, used primarily in Madness Tog. The only difference is that they used Gifts Ungiven.

[Anusien]

I've tested Coliseum in Loam decks before, and Deep6er is right. Losing your land drop is a pain in the ass. Sure you save a few mana comparable to cycling lands, but the ability to make land drops every turn quickly negates that benefit.

[Illissius]

Basically, with Loam and three Sandbars you pay :1::g::u::u::u: to draw two cards (the third goes to recouping Loam); with Loam and a Coliseum you pay :1::g::u::u: and your land drop for the same (counting tapping the Coliseum as another :u:). So it's only one mana fewer, and all else being equal, I would much rather pay the extra :u: than the land drop.

The advantage of Coliseum is that a single nonbasic land which damages you is less of a price to pay than three nonbasic lands which come into play tapped; also, you don't actually need to use Loam-Coliseum very many times before you gain a significant advantage in cards.

What I think it comes down to is that (for a deck like this which actually values its land drops), cycling lands are something you build around as the primary draw engine for the deck, or otherwise it's not worth the Sandbars, whereas a Coliseum is something you can just throw into the deck because it might come in useful, but won't suck too much even if it doesn't. So I could see going either way. In a four color deck with 22 lands, I would lean to the side of "don't include". (As the 23rd land, though, it's a different matter.) (edit: I was basing this off Deep6er's recent tournament list which had 22 lands)

[Anusien]

My other concern is that Coliseum is slow, both to use and to recoup any advantage. Since you pretty much have to go Loam, get lands in hand, Coliseum, pitch those lands trying to get relevant cards. The problem with Coliseum in ITF is making a slow deck slower.

[jazzykat]

After having played both decks quite a bit, with granted a ton more time logged on with ITF I can safely say that while ITF may lack raw draw power it has 2 things which make me prefer it in a a meta that doesn't have a ton of non basic hate.

1. StP over smother. No one argues this. StP wins, smother is more useful than I gave it credit for but is not flexible enough.

2. Counterbalance abuse vs. raw draw power. While Vorosh wins hands down in raw draw power with standstill, I am frustrated sometimes because I either have to chose to set up an "ancestral" and know that my carefully created CB/Top stack on my library is going to get scooped up into my hand or not play the standstill which to me seems ludicrous.

While, you can use brainstorm to reset your stack the way you liked it, or pop a fetch to try again I find myself often stabilizing very low in life and I really do need to keep a tight lid on the game at that point.

Where ITF really shines is the amazing ability to not only quickly set up the CB/Top engine with intuitions, but to have more shuffle effects in intuition as well as the ridiculously helpful loam in the late game to get chaff off the top of your deck and get down to good stuff. There is also the trick of using academy and volrath's stronghold to put different things on top of your library.

With ITF you never seem to be penalized when you have a CB/Top lock out and it is very good at getting you one quickly.

As to which is better.... I think it depends on 2 things:

1. Your metagame
2. Your preference/proficiency with the deck.



I prefer having stp and the pure elegance of ITF over the raw power and resiliency to non basic hate that Vorosh Still has.

With ITF you either play near perfect or lose, Vorosh Still because it is so busted allows for more ham handedness. So with all this said I think this thread while in principle makes sense in being here the comparison to put it in car terms is like comparing a Viper to a Lotus Elise...completely uncomparable at any meaningful level to discern an objective and hands down best in all situations.

[Bardo]

With Vorosh, for me, it always came down to Wasteland vs. StP. So, the control-hostile configuration vs. the anti-aggro / aggro-control package (StP). In creature-heavier metagames (less control), (such as what I was expecting at the Vancouver, WA tournament before I bailed), I advocate what I have filed into 60 (+15) KMC sleeves.

4c Vorosh

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives*
1 Crime & Punishment
1 Vedalken Shackles

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Island

* Or 3 EE / 0 C&P, up to you. C&P is nice with Counterbalance when you want to stop, uh, a hardcast Djinn Illuminatus?

Sideboard is a little more than 3c -- usually containing some combination of BEB/Hydroblast, Plagues, Grips and GY hate (Extirpate, Crypt, Wheel of Sun & Moon, etc.).

In a metagame where control is more prevalent, Wasteland / Crucible is stronger than Smother is weak (relative to StP). So, yeah, tune for the field.

[Nihil Credo]

* Or 3 EE / 0 C&P, up to you. C&P is nice with Counterbalance when you want to stop, uh, a hardcast Djinn Illuminatus?
C/P on top of your library actually counters FoW and Tarmogoyf. Counterbalance asks "Is its CMC equal to X?", not "What is its CMC?", so it gets a yes/no answer instead of "5 and 2".

[Bardo]

C/P on top of your library actually counters FoW and Tarmogoyf. Counterbalance asks "Is its CMC equal to X?", not "What is its CMC?", so it gets a yes/no answer instead of "5 and 2".

Oh, that's awesome then. I was confusing the split cards CMC with life loss from Confidant.

[Bardo]

Snipped and moved all of the split card rules posts over to the rules forum. Here:


http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10575

[HSCK]

Would any of you consider the new deck in the latest Anusien article as "The Fear", if so I think it radically changes the view of the matchup because of its reslience and the ability to finish after a single Intuition

[Bardo]

I don't think so, it's a beast unto its own. One thing I'm certain: this deck looks awesome.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/16217.html

For reference (reformatted):

Some Crazy Intuition Control Deck
by Anusien, et al.

4 Brainstorm
3 Intuition
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Life from the Loam

4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Collective Restraint
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Demigod of Revenge

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins

Looks hot. Dunno about some of the card choices (e.g. Collective Restraint, Gifts), but I love the idea.

[Anusien]

Would any of you consider the new deck in the latest Anusien article as "The Fear", if so I think it radically changes the view of the matchup because of its reslience and the ability to finish after a single Intuition
Interestingly I derived it from Vorosh. If you consider the difference between ITF and Vorosh as Intuition vs Standstill, then this is in the vein of ITF more than Vorosh. If people think it's its own beast, I'll start a new thread.

[HammafistRoob]

Do it up

[Tenant_Tron]

Good luck casting those Demigods with 6 lands in the deck that tap for R or B. Seriously, I know you have LFTL, but this still seems very hard to pull off to me...

T.T

[Anusien]

Good luck casting those Demigods with 6 lands in the deck that tap for R or B. Seriously, I know you have LFTL, but this still seems very hard to pull off to me...

T.T
Intuition for Life from the Loam, Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth, Volrath's Stronghold. Done. I'll be busy bashing with Tarmogoyfs until they put a stop to that plan (StP?) by which point I'll have either just found a Demigod or two naturally, or I'll have found an Intuition. Just naturally drawing Demigod is fine if people don't know how the triggers work, and drawing two is kind of hilarious. Probably the most awesome situation in the world would be to dredge one up with one in your hand!

Edit: sideboard Magus of the Moon is a reasonable plan B.

[HSCK]

@Anusien: It depends on how you look at the deck, if you use the Goyfs and board control gradually and finish off with an Intuition for the win it is definitely ITF. However, if you look at all those things as mere combo enablers, I think it takes the deck in a very different direction. As you mentioned above you want to beat with Goyfs and absorb STPs until you can safely finish things off. On the other hand, you can go for break neck Counterbalance set up only and quickly go for a combination of Intuitions to just win keeping a 1CC card on the top while letting yourself get pounded. For example: Instead of early game Deed you simply go for Intuition.

[Bardo]

Anusien - Please start a new thread to talk about the Intution/Demigod deck in N&D.

Everyone else - If you want to talk about that deck, do it in the new thread.

Grazi.

[Anusien]

What sort of discussion is this thread for, anyway?

[Bardo]

Apparently, VoroshStill (Standstill) and ITF (Intuition). If you think the decklist above is appropriate here, that's fine. It just seemed that discussion about the Demigod deck might be better served in its own thread. I don't feel strongly on the topic, so whatever works.