[Deck] ROFLStompy

[raharu]

Well, it's a horrible name for a unpoven deck. It's a variant of Bunnies, but instead of playing something like this (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3262&page=2), or one of Anti~American's lists from the Deadguy Ale thread that looks marginally similar, I'll be playing a list that's more tuned for a the current Metagame (i.e. a increased prevalence of control and manadenial stragies, bigger creatures [Tarmogoyf], more combo that requires more disruption, etc., etc.). With more disruption, bigger threats, and a broad removal suite, it should be a viable deck in the current format. For reference, here's the list I'll be starting from:

List {

Mana: 21
Bloodstained Mire x4
Windswept Heath x4
Scrubland x4
Swamp x2
Plains x3
Chrome Mox x4

Removal: 8
Swords to Plowshares x4
Vindicate x4

Disruption: 10
Duress x2
Thoughtseize x4
Gerard’s Verdict x4

Equipment: 3
Uwzema’s Jitte x3

Creatures: 18
Mother of Runes x4
Dark Confidant x4
Spectral Lynx x4
Serra Avenger x3
Tombstalker x3

List
}

The list uses creatues like MoR and Spectral Lynx to gum up the board, removal to punch a hole in anything that makes life difficult, bombs to win the game, and disruption to hopefully do most of this unimpeeded.

Explinations:

Moxen can fuel some explosive starts, skip the one drop in normally clunky hands that lack one, and get important one drops on the table first turn past Dazes or with Thoughtseize/ Duress backing.

Fetches and Duals: Yep, they're here.

High basic count: Well, it's two color deck, so between this and Moxen the manabase should be really stout.

The Distuption package: well, Thoughtseizes are just about mandatory if you're playing black, and I'll be using Duresses for more spot discard. I'm sure I'll tak flak over chosing Verdicts over Hymns, but I prefer Verdicts because they have a stronger interction with Chrome Mox, allow me to gain life from my primary draw engine (more on Confdant's interaction with TS later), and generally hit goodies because people hesitate to give me life. I'll conceede that it's worse against combo because they can just pitch setup flak or brainstorm and then pitch the worst cards, etc., but with 6 MD spot discard I'm not entirely worried about that, and Extirpate in the SB is always good against combo (I can't build a deck in black without Extirpate in the side. It's golden).

The Creatures: Well, they all serve a purpose. MoR is reach and addition protection for my creatures, in addition to the rediculious combat tricks it facilitates and it's strong board presence. Dark Confidant's role is obvious. Spectral Lynx is strong against Tarmo (i.e. the format), stops just about anything you throw at is (including most removal), and should bear equipment better than it's P/T would imply. Avenger and TS's roles are obvious.

At the moment I'm fairly pleased with the way the list looks, and when I get my first full paycheck I'll buy the list and see where I'm going from there.

To get the conversations going I presume I'll throw out a few choices:


Tarmogoyf: obviously, this is an agro deck to some extent, so this is the first thing that I'd expect The Source to sugest. I'll be honest, I have an incredible bias against it and I hate what it did to the format, but enough bawing, some counterpoints: It's a vanila beater, which means no evasion (outside of MoR activations), it doesn't have any positive atributes outside of being a fat fucker, it doesn't really have any positive atributes (Lynx renerates, Avenger flies, swings both ways, and isjust insane with Jitte, MoR is nutty, Confi draws cards, Tombstalker finishes games fast by it's lonesome over a stalemate if you sufficently gumm up the board, which isn't that hard).
Cabal Therapy: Well, it doesn't really fit here. I'd love to play it, but I don' want to loose any of my creatues once they hit the board. They're all to valuable to toss in the bin for the flashback, and without the flash back they're kinda useless.
Land destruction: Not enough room and I don't feel it's effective anyway. I just don't like it and would rather devote the space to threats and more disruption.
Oblivion Ring: Well, I feel th Vindcate is better and additional removal is most likely not needed in the maindeck.
Diabolic Edict: I like this beacuse I can hit enchantresses and Mongeese, although I can't really find a spot for them in the MD, as I want to run at least 3 (though 4 seems excessive) an really can't see anything I'd want to pull...

[Mordenkaynen]

Uwzema's Jitte sounds cool :tongue: how many mistakes?

The list seems great.
What about EE/powder keg in main? (destroys EtW tokens [have you enough disruption to wreck them?], chalice [faster then vindicate, and that can be important vs dragon stompy which has fast clock], geese [not that important for you], powder keg - also manlands)
Will you show the SB?
What about the name of "plagued air"?

[Mental]

On Tarmogoyf - you forget that 4-5 swings with it can end the game, it's an answer to opposing Goyfs, and it cost 1G, making it easy to splash. I'd play it in a second in a deck like yours.

[freakish777]

I have to agree with Mental here. Ditch the avengers and one other card (Duress, Tombstalker or MoR) for the Goyfs. You can ditch 1 Scrub for 1 Bayou, 2 fetches for 1 Savannah and 1 Bayou, and 2 Plains for 1 Forest and 1 Savannah.


Avenger costs :w::w: for a 3/3 with abilities that are only relevant against aggro decks.

Goyf costs :1::g: for a 4/5 or 5/6 with no abilities. However the fact that he's a 4/5 or 5/6 means he's relevant against aggro ("you want to block with your Warchief? lolz, mise well, right? you can't even race with him and Piledriver!"), control (Goyf is good here except against Moat, Avenger is marginal here, and only better against Moat) and combo (Avenger isn't relevant here, Goyf let's you race).


I'd also like to see a 1 of Sensei's Divining Top squeezed in there.

[Bryant Cook]

Anyone else noticing the lack of green producing land?

[Mental]

Yes. as freakish said, he could add them.

[raharu]

Anyone else noticing the lack of green producing land?
Wow, someone not Tarmomongering? Whatwhat?!!!??? At any rate, thank you Bryant, for not just yelling the same points for the >9000th time.


I have to agree with Mental here. Ditch the avengers and one other card (Duress, Tombstalker or MoR) for the Goyfs. You can ditch 1 Scrub for 1 Bayou, 2 fetches for 1 Savannah and 1 Bayou, and 2 Plains for 1 Forest and 1 Savannah.

Well, then I'm playing a fairly low number of basics. The deck plays 5 basics and 4 moxen, i.e. I really really don't care about manadenial. Like, at all. The manabase is retardedly stout. I really don't want to fug up a rock soild manabase for Tarmogoyf.

Also, pull a MoR???? What? It's a core piece of the deck, and you win the game when you have one that sticks in all MUs that run creatures. Why why why why why would you want to pull one? I mean, it just rapes sooooo much, why would you want to take one out? They're so effective at stabilizing the board and are a defensive threat with 'Jitte. They're evasion, they're an incredible blocker, they shelter DC, they just do what the deck needs to have done for it.


Avenger costs :w::w: for a 3/3 with abilities that are only relevant against aggro decks.

Goyf costs :1::g: for a 4/5 or 5/6 with no abilities. However the fact that he's a 4/5 or 5/6 means he's relevant against aggro ("you want to block with your Warchief? lolz, mise well, right? you can't even race with him and Piledriver!"), control (Goyf is good here except against Moat, Avenger is marginal here, and only better against Moat) and combo (Avenger isn't relevant here, Goyf let's you race).

Conceeded.


I'd also like to see a 1 of Sensei's Divining Top squeezed in there.

I'd like to see 3, but it's not going to happen, unfortunately. I don't have any slots that aren't beter utilized.


Uwzema's Jitte sounds cool :tongue: how many mistakes?

The list seems great.
What about EE/powder keg in main? (destroys EtW tokens [have you enough disruption to wreck them?], chalice [faster then vindicate, and that can be important vs dragon stompy which has fast clock], geese [not that important for you], powder keg - also manlands)
Will you show the SB?
What about the name of "plagued air"?

None yet.

Errr, Keg and EE don't exactly fit the deck (Confi, Jitte, MoR, & co. need to stick), and I'm not that worried about EtW, because few use it and I have Extirpate and other goddies for combo anyway. Staxx is too slow for me to really feel threatened by Chalice from them, and DStompy should be a lulzy MU because if I can get, well, a non-Jitte permanent to stick I should be fine (untested statememt, but MoR stops everything short of a dragon dead, as does Lynx, as should TS [which is going to resolve anyway, unless they can Chalice for 8, that is]).

Errrr, manlands though... I'm not sure if I need to be concerned. I have no fear whatsoever of Factory, but Monastery is just a beating (it's a First Striking 4/4. It's going to fuck you up). I'll see what happens though. It's not like I won't have the money to test :tongue:.


On Tarmogoyf - you forget that 4-5 swings with it can end the game, it's an answer to opposing Goyfs, and it cost 1G, making it easy to splash. I'd play it in a second in a deck like yours.

TS does the same over a gummed up board, as does just about anything with a 'Jitte, I run 8 MD removal, and it fugs up my manabase. I'm really not sure I want to play it, now that I've actually seen what the manabase would have to look like to do so. I actually considered it strongly, but now I'm not really sure that I want to now.

Also, I find it strange that ~80% of the conversation about this deck is over a card that isn't in the MD, Side, or even within the colors of the deck itself. God I hate Tarmogoyf.

[Mordenkaynen]

So, SB? And can you specify the meta where you're going to test?

) And what about the name?

[Mental]

Personally I feel that the MUs you have to worry about won't attack your manabase - (Counterbalance Thresh, Landstill, etc). Serra Avenger is a really crappy card in the current meta.

I understand why you wouldn't want to cut MoR, but I think 3 MoR should be plenty and that you'll appreciate having 4 Goyf over 4 MoR. As for the manabase, as I said, it won't even be that relevant unless there's a lot of Thrash/Goblins (and you beat Goblins) in your meta. Even if there is, I don't think it will be significantly worse.
And sideboard access to KGrip and Choke seems strong.

[freakish777]

Also, pull a MoR???? What? It's a core piece of the deck, and you win the game when you have one that sticks in all MUs that run creatures. Why why why why why would you want to pull one? I mean, it just rapes sooooo much, why would you want to take one out? They're so effective at stabilizing the board and are a defensive threat with 'Jitte. They're evasion, they're an incredible blocker, they shelter DC, they just do what the deck needs to have done for it.

For reference +4 Goyf for -3 Avenger & -1 Duress is my first suggestion, -3 Avenger & -1 Tombstalker my second suggestion, and -3 Avenger & -1 MoR my third suggestion (hence I wrote them in that order).

With 4 Thoughtseize and 4 Verdict already, it seems like 1/6th of the deck being discard is just a little on the high side, hence I suggest cutting 1 Duress first. However, I obviously don't play in the same metagame as you do, so if you see a lot more combo than I do, you probably want that extra Duress, so I figured a couple back up plans should be mentioned. I'm thinking at this point it's clear you play against a lot a lot a lot of aggro decks. If that's the case, yeah keep the MoR and ditch Duress. If it's a lot of combo, then I'd pull a Tombstalker (he comes down around turn 4 or 5 it seems, so he's usually great against control decks since he gives you a mid-game back up plan, which isn't what you need against combo).

[raharu]

For reference +4 Goyf for -3 Avenger & -1 Duress is my first suggestion, -3 Avenger & -1 Tombstalker my second suggestion, and -3 Avenger & -1 MoR my third suggestion (hence I wrote them in that order).

With 4 Thoughtseize and 4 Verdict already, it seems like 1/6th of the deck being discard is just a little on the high side, hence I suggest cutting 1 Duress first. However, I obviously don't play in the same metagame as you do, so if you see a lot more combo than I do, you probably want that extra Duress, so I figured a couple back up plans should be mentioned. I'm thinking at this point it's clear you play against a lot a lot a lot of aggro decks. If that's the case, yeah keep the MoR and ditch Duress. If it's a lot of combo, then I'd pull a Tombstalker (he comes down around turn 4 or 5 it seems, so he's usually great against control decks since he gives you a mid-game back up plan, which isn't what you need against combo).
Right right, I presume I over-reacted, it's just that MoR is fairly sick against most of the metagame, and pulling one when you really want as many as you can reasonably play is blasphemous to me.

Really, you don't like having 6 Spot discard? I mean, it seems like that's what you really want against combo, almost enough so that you'd board the other two.

Stupid Tarmo... Well, at any rate, I presume I'll do some intensive testing when I get paid and have spare monies (I'm working on saving ~$1000 go take a road trip this summer, and also to go GP Illy).

[Carabas]

ugh. Tombstalker+confidant hurts like a bitch. I was testing on lackey, had them down to a lowly 2 life, was going to swing for the win next turn. Tombstalker+Lightning bolt put a stop to that.

[Agent J]

I don't know if it has been suggested yet but how about Jotun Grunt in the Tombstalker slot? I know that Tombstalker is a far better beater but you can easily lose games by revealing it with Confidant. Grunt can be a huge threat too and with Fetchlands and all that Discard it will probably stay around for quite a while.

Another card to consider could be Bitterblossom. This deck plays Aggro-Control and Bitterblossom is quite strong in this kind of archetype. Maybe it's to much life loss and maybe Serra Avenger is just stronger but it could be tried.

[Mental]

I don't know if it has been suggested yet but how about Jotun Grunt in the Tombstalker slot? I know that Tombstalker is a far better beater but you can easily lose games by revealing it with Confidant. Grunt can be a huge threat too and with Fetchlands and all that Discard it will probably stay around for quite a while.

Another card to consider could be Bitterblossom. This deck plays Aggro-Control and Bitterblossom is quite strong in this kind of archetype. Maybe it's to much life loss and maybe Serra Avenger is just stronger but it could be tried.

Personally I think the risk of killing yourself late game with a Stalker flip is well worth the risk of playing the card - it's so strong.

For reference, here's what I'm fiddling around with:

2 Mire
4 Heath
3 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Chrome Mox

4 Goyf
4 Tombstalker
4 Dark Confidant
4 Spectral Lynx
4 Mother of Ruins

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
3 Jitte

I'm testing Dark Ritual in the place of Chrome Mox. The ability to go turn 1, Rit, Thoughtseize, Confidant, wins so many games. Then again, Chrome Mox is permanent acceleration that lasts the entire game.

I really do like BB in this deck, but I don't want to cut the Stalkers to make room for them. So for now, they're a no.

[Mirrislegend]

raharu, you're in luck, because the budget beatstick of an answer to goyf is in this deck's colors. Jotun Grunt. MD at least 2 of them if thats your meta. He outclasses Goyf quickly and generally ruins gy-dependent decks. And with a 4/4 body and a cc of 2, you really dont have any excuses not to run him.

[raharu]

ugh. Tombstalker+confidant hurts like a bitch. I was testing on lackey, had them down to a lowly 2 life, was going to swing for the win next turn. Tombstalker+Lightning bolt put a stop to that.

Uh, that's a really marginal chance. I'm not that concerned with that happening.


raharu, you're in luck, because the budget beatstick of an answer to goyf is in this deck's colors. Jotun Grunt. MD at least 2 of them if thats your meta. He outclasses Goyf quickly and generally ruins gy-dependent decks. And with a 4/4 body and a cc of 2, you really dont have any excuses not to run him.

Uh, because they don't stick for long, aren't any good in the late game when you can actually use them for long enough for them to matter, I have an obscene amound of answers/ foils to Tarmogoyf already (4 MoR, 4 Lynx, 3 Tombstalker, 4 Swords to Plowshares, 4 Vindicate, 4 Thoughtseize, 3 Jitte. That'll fuck up most any Tarmogoyf that swaggers into my line of fire), most GY decks lolerskate around the slowness of Jotun Grunt (even though you still won't get wrecked by any of them preboard, except ichorid, and after boarding [more on this later] things should get much much better), and it has no evasion and doesn't really do anything relevant that Tombstalker or other cards don't do better. Also, I can do much better things with 1W in the late game than cast a threat that kills itself.

On a sidenote, I'm not building this because I can't build anything else. I could buy landstill or threshold just about right now if I wanted to. The problem is, I don't. I like the way this archetype plays, it just feels obscenely strong (although more testing is obviously needed). Every drop is a bomb, every play has a direct impact on the situation, the plays definately benefit from finesse and skill, but you can just tap lands, play shit, put it on cruise control and plow through jank if that's the case. As much as I love the intracies of blue based control, Mono U doesn't cut it, I hate Mishra's Factory, and I don't want to play green (although that's most likely what's going to push this deck over the top :frown:), so instead of playing UXx I'm playing BW, my first love.

Right now this is the sideboard I'd play in a general metagame without any special concers:

for the BW version:
4 Extirpate
3 Pithing Needle
2 Duress
6 open slots

for the BWg version:
4 Extirpate
3 Pithing Needle
4 Krosan Grips
4 open slots

Also: Mental, how's the deck coming?

[The Rack]

I'm going to be unpopular but I wouldn't run Tarmogoyf in a BW deck. It's not an end all card and it's pretty stupid if you think it is. Grunt is good, Exalted angel is good but Confidant hurts that. Don't run Tarmogoyf just because, that's dumb.

[Mental]

I agree with you that everything feels like a bomb, and I really like that. On the other hand, I really want to make room for 3-4 Wastelands and I still haven't got around to testing Dark Ritual. I may cut Chrome Moxes for the Wastes. What do you guys think?

[Agent J]

I played my list (-3 Tombsatlker, +3 Jotung Grunt) at our local tournament today but it performed rather badly.
1st round 0:2 vs. TES. Turn 3 kill in both games were just too fast for me even with a little disruption.
2nd round 1:2 vs. MUC. I draw lot's of Mothers but they really suck in this matchup. He protects his Vedalken Shackles and I don't stand a chance. The only game I manage too win is the one where my first turn Confidant hits the table.
3rd round --> bye
4th round 2:0 vs. Solidarity. I find enough disruption but he almost gets me with two Lands and 3 High Tide in game 1. Game 2 he has an extremly weak draw and I can win easily.
5th round 1:2 vs. UBG Landstill. Deeds + Explosives + Academy Ruins and Counterbalance + Top afterwards is just to much for me. Not the slightest chance here. I only won a game because he was severly screwed.

Some problems I noticed:

- Spectral Lynx is nice when you're facing Goyfs but otherwise it's a weak threat.
- Mother is nice but mostly for protecting Confidant and she is no threat on her own.
- It's hard to win without Jitte because your opponent will often be able to race you.
- Mass removal hits you pretty hard (as I mentioned before) and Counterbalance is not your friend either.

I'm not sure how to solve those problems (or if they can be solved at all). Another threat would be nice. Tombstalker would be ok but there is still the bad synergy with Confidant. Maybe I'm really unlucky but I took notes and revealed Grunt (i.e. Stalker) 3 times today. I also don't think that splashing for Goyf is the best plan. It weakens your mana base and does not work to well with Grunt. But then I'm not sure what would be a good threat. :wink: Still I'm going to reduce the disacrd to something like 4 Thoughtseize + 2-3 Duress and add 3-4 threats. Possible choices include: Bitterblossom, Silver Knight, Oona's Prowler, Kitchen Finks, Isamaru, Hand of Honor, Augury Adept etc.
I'll probably give the Deck another chance next week because I actually like the concept but there is still a lot of room for optimizing IMO.

[Mental]

I played my list (-3 Tombsatlker, +3 Jotung Grunt) at our local tournament today but it performed rather badly.
1st round 0:2 vs. TES. Turn 3 kill in both games were just too fast for me even with a little disruption.
2nd round 1:2 vs. MUC. I draw lot's of Mothers but they really suck in this matchup. He protects his Vedalken Shackles and I don't stand a chance. The only game I manage too win is the one where my first turn Confidant hits the table.
3rd round --> bye
4th round 2:0 vs. Solidarity. I find enough disruption but he almost gets me with two Lands and 3 High Tide in game 1. Game 2 he has an extremly weak draw and I can win easily.
5th round 1:2 vs. UBG Landstill. Deeds + Explosives + Academy Ruins and Counterbalance + Top afterwards is just to much for me. Not the slightest chance here. I only won a game because he was severly screwed.

Some problems I noticed:

- Spectral Lynx is nice when you're facing Goyfs but otherwise it's a weak threat.
- Mother is nice but mostly for protecting Confidant and she is no threat on her own.
- It's hard to win without Jitte because your opponent will often be able to race you.
- Mass removal hits you pretty hard (as I mentioned before) and Counterbalance is not your friend either.

I'm not sure how to solve those problems (or if they can be solved at all). Another threat would be nice. Tombstalker would be ok but there is still the bad synergy with Confidant. Maybe I'm really unlucky but I took notes and revealed Grunt (i.e. Stalker) 3 times today. I also don't think that splashing for Goyf is the best plan. It weakens your mana base and does not work to well with Grunt. But then I'm not sure what would be a good threat. :wink: Still I'm going to reduce the disacrd to something like 4 Thoughtseize + 2-3 Duress and add 3-4 threats. Possible choices include: Bitterblossom, Silver Knight, Oona's Prowler, Kitchen Finks, Isamaru, Hand of Honor, Augury Adept etc.
I'll probably give the Deck another chance next week because I actually like the concept but there is still a lot of room for optimizing IMO.

From your post it sounds like Blossom would have fixed a lot of the problems with Mass Removal. I think I'll test 4 in place of the Tombstalkers.
But seriously, you can't expect to beat TES with an aggro deck often, so I wouldn't complain there. Against UGB Landstill, it seems like your best chance is to take their mass removal using discard and then win quickly. Wasteland also seems like it'll help that MU.
With that in mind, I want to add 4 Wastes in place of 4 Moxes, and cut 4 Tombstalkers for 4 Bitterblossoms. I'd also like to squeeze in a Duress or 2.
Thoughts?

Oh, a side note: Descendant of Kiyomaro seems good in this deck, at least in some split with MoR/Lynx. I'm thinking 3 MoR, 3 Lynx, 2 Descendant.

[raharu]

From your post it sounds like Blossom would have fixed a lot of the problems with Mass Removal. I think I'll test 4 in place of the Tombstalkers.
But seriously, you can't expect to beat TES with an aggro deck often, so I wouldn't complain there. Against UGB Landstill, it seems like your best chance is to take their mass removal using discard and then win quickly. Wasteland also seems like it'll help that MU.
With that in mind, I want to add 4 Wastes in place of 4 Moxes, and cut 4 Tombstalkers for 4 Bitterblossoms. I'd also like to squeeze in a Duress or 2.
Thoughts?

Oh, a side note: Descendant of Kiyomaro seems good in this deck, at least in some split with MoR/Lynx. I'm thinking 3 MoR, 3 Lynx, 2 Descendant.
Why not run Bitterblossom in the Spectral Lynx spot? There aren't even 4 TS in the deck anyway.

This is sooooo not dedicated agro. THere are a gigantic wad of disruptive elements, and after the board they just grow exponentially because you have 8 dead removal slots (against combo, at least) after boarding, which can be 2 Duress, 4 Extirpate, 2 something else, and with the Moxen you can have fierce starts that just rip their hand apart before they can even see the 8th card. On that note, what anti-combo elements could be placed in that two slot in the board?

Also, Descandant? Really? I've played around with it, and it always feels win-more. Either you've shredded their hand, landed a confidant, or both, and in those cases you've already won the game when you pull a threat, considering that it's hard to fuck up that situation. Pulling cards that help staunch bleeding from a faster (dedicated) agro deck's start forwinmore threats doesn't seem that strong. Atm I'm doing some research for a threat to take/ share slots with Lynx, as I realize that it's just a slightly better Drudge Skeletons that has a tendancy to maul threshold. I'm fine with replacing that. I'm thinking Bitterblossom is the fix I'm looking for, as it does what Lynx does in the same/ a better manner and plays nicer with Equipment. Meh, idk.

Mother of Runes: unless you exist in a combo metagame you do not ever ever ever ever run less than 4 ever. They're golden, sliver, platinum and fucking bismuth. They're Dragonforce. Don't run less than 4.

EDIT: those anti-combo SB slots? Orim's Chant (I think)...

EDIT TWO: otay, that was a bad sugestion :\

[Nihil Credo]

True Believer is very sweet alongside Mom for the combo matchup, and doubles up for crap like Burn or Discard. Though with the green splash Gaddock Teeg would be even sweeter, to the point of being maindeckable.

4 Pithing Needle seem like a must to me in this sort of deck. Even with Lynx and Tombstalker, a topdecked Deed is still disastrous, and recurred Explosives are even worse.

After that, and considering MD access to discard and Vindicate, you don't seem to have a tremendous need for Disenchant effect. On the other side, your aggro matchup could probably use some help (yes, Mom is fantastic here, but the rest of your deck isn't so hot). I'd take the middle road and run Oblivion Rings in the side, to cover both sides at once even if a little inefficiently.

So I'd go:

4 True Believer
4 Extirpate (but for Tombstalker you could run Planar Void)
4 Pithing Needle
3 Oblivion Ring

Personally, I think this looks a little underpowered; I can tell from some of the cards and from seeing quite a few B/W decks in my time.

I see two directions to evolve it towards: one is well known, i.e. to splash green and upgrade your threats (Avenger -> Goyf, Lynx -> Doran, Tombstalker -> Enforcer). The other is to do something similar to Isamaru's deck and abuse Moat, drawing a thick line between your utility/card advantage creatures (Mom, Bob, and maybe something cool like Weathered Wayfarer) and your flying beaters; however, I've never managed to make this approach truly work, as it always ended relying too much on the enchantment and turning into a pile of crap without it.

[raharu]

Ohay, I forgot about Mystic Enforcer.

Also, I've been thinking about cutting a few lands for Weathered Wayfarer, or cutting lands for Wastelands and making more room for the Wayfarers, but I really can't see them being all that strong in that context. On a land-related note, I'm thinking of going -1 heath, -1 mire, +2 Volrath's Stronghold for that delicious late game recursion, which kinda makes me want a Weather Wayfarer (WW from now on) engine. Something like Stronghold, Maze of Ith, and, uh, I can't think of anything else :3 I'll do some research and get back to you with it. The Strongholds look really interesting though. Still haven't gotten to test yet. Shopping ft simultaneous wl. Going to the mall today.

Also, note on the SB. I'm thinking more like this:

4 Extirpate
4 Needle
2 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
3 something (Believer? I'm thinking Ghostly Prision looks nice, but eh, I don't think it's needed :\)

The ability to board in +8 hate cards in place of removal should be enough for the combo matchup, and I dislike True Believer because Wish > solution is pretty much mandatory for combo decks nowadays, but it's a little hard to stop Extirpates and 10(!) pieces of discard.

[Mental]

I didn't mean this was straight aggro. I just meant that against combo, it's rare that 8 pieces of disruption is enough to pull out a win.

I don't want to cut Lynx for BBlossom because Confidant + Tombstalker + Thoughtseize + BB is a ridiculous amount of life loss.

The thing I've noticed about BB is it's best when you can pump the tokens, like with Scion of Oona. We don't play Scion, but Jitte might make it worth it. However, without Scion it's not really a threat against Thresh, it just cuts their clock down massively.

Doran could certainly be interesting in the place of Lynx, as he dodges Counterbalance.

As for the sideboard:
4 Extirpate
4 Needles
are the slots I'm sold on.
After that, I'm playing:
3 KGrip
2 Duress
2 Hail Storm

I don't care about the combo MU, it's a tiny portion of the meta.

[raharu]

I didn't mean this was straight aggro. I just meant that against combo, it's rare that 8 pieces of disruption is enough to pull out a win.

I don't want to cut Lynx for BBlossom because Confidant + Tombstalker + Thoughtseize + BB is a ridiculous amount of life loss.

The thing I've noticed about BB is it's best when you can pump the tokens, like with Scion of Oona. We don't play Scion, but Jitte might make it worth it. However, without Scion it's not really a threat against Thresh, it just cuts their clock down massively.

Doran could certainly be interesting in the place of Lynx, as he dodges Counterbalance.

As for the sideboard:
4 Extirpate
4 Needles
are the slots I'm sold on.
After that, I'm playing:
3 KGrip
2 Duress
2 Hail Storm

I don't care about the combo MU, it's a tiny portion of the meta.
Right right, I'm retarded. On that note though, how much disruption do you think is needed? Also, are you not running the Duresses in the main? What's the list you're testing atm?

Yeah, I'm thinking of taking some of Isamaru's tech and finding room for Words of Worship, that or the old Worship lock thresh tech.

Hail Storm? For what matches?

[Mental]

Right right, I'm retarded. On that note though, how much disruption do you think is needed? Also, are you not running the Duresses in the main? What's the list you're testing atm?

Yeah, I'm thinking of taking some of Isamaru's tech and finding room for Words of Worship, that or the old Worship lock thresh tech.

Hail Storm? For what matches?

Hail Storm is anti Goblins.

Here's my current list:

2 Mire
4 Heath
3 Scrubland
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Ruins
3 Tombstalker

4 Bitterblossom

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sensei's Divining Top

I managed to sneak in the SDT's for a Stalker and a land. I feel like the list right now is fairly strong and consistent, Bitterblossom is basically an insane version of spectral lynx. The problem is, of course, that you lose to yourself. However, Jitte does help there, as does Top. Hopefully between 5 cards that stop this deck from killing itself, you won't die often to yourself.

As for my sideboard, it's:

4 Extirpate
3 Pithing Needle
3 Choke
3 KGrip
2 Duress

Or, if there's a lot of Goblins in your meta, go -1 Choke, -1 Duress, +2 Hail Storm.

I want to fit Jotun Grunt in the SB somewhere.

I've tested a bit against Aggro Loam. Bitterblossom is incredible in this MU - but Devestating Dreams is also. It's a close MU that seems to be able to go either way.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

i pretty much <3 this deck

and im bulding it for legacy the next time i see my cards.

[raharu]

Do you really need Goblin hate? I've never really found agro to be that hard with this archetype. 8 MD removal should be enough for most, and your list seems like it would have a miraculous way of clogging up the board or just swinging the board state in a favorable manner.

Grunt seems like overkill.

Do you know what would weaken Dreams? Chrome Mox :tongue:. At any rate, how has Wasteland been?

[Mental]

Do you really need Goblin hate? I've never really found agro to be that hard with this archetype. 8 MD removal should be enough for most, and your list seems like it would have a miraculous way of clogging up the board or just swinging the board state in a favorable manner.

Grunt seems like overkill.

Do you know what would weaken Dreams? Chrome Mox :tongue:. At any rate, how has Wasteland been?

It's been alright, but not incredible. It's only complement is Vindicate which sucks. If you play them, 3 is the right number. But I may go back to playing Mox, as Vindicate can deal with pesky things like Volrath's Stronghold.

[raharu]

Which is why I love it :]

[freakish777]

Hail Storm is anti Goblins.



Why would you want to play Hail Storm (which has double green in it's cost) instead of EPlague (single black) against Goblins? If it's not worth devoting 4 Slots to beating, then it certainly isn't worth devoting 2 slots to for a card that only beats up on Goblins (ie, if you can only dedicate 2 slots to Goblins in the board, try something like Pernicious Deed instead).

[raharu]

Why would you want to play Hail Storm (which has double green in it's cost) instead of EPlague (single black) against Goblins? If it's not worth devoting 4 Slots to beating, then it certainly isn't worth devoting 2 slots to for a card that only beats up on Goblins (ie, if you can only dedicate 2 slots to Goblins in the board, try something like Pernicious Deed instead).
Why devote board slots to agro anyway? Also, why not play Ghostly Prision instead?

[Mental]

Why devote board slots to agro anyway? Also, why not play Ghostly Prision instead?

Ghostly Prison is certainly an interesting option. It didn't occur to me to play that out of Stax.

[raharu]

Yes, and it makes random late game Wastelands more relevant because they have an additional strain placed on their manabase due to Ghostly Prision. In all reality, it's just a bump stop, but that should be all you need against agro, just enough time to set up (although I've never had much of a problem with that personally). If it sticks around long enough to really clutter up their board, most of the threats (in my list at least) have evasion, or, worst comes to worst, just use MoR to send fat through. On a related note, has anyone else been marginally excited about the new BW cards from Eventide? While Divinity of Pride seems inherently win-more here, I'm rather curious about how the proformance of Ashling the Extinguisher will be. I don't think she'll make the deck a whole lot more powerful, as she's just an anti-agro engine, but I'm hoping that she will prove to be playable in the deck, as I feel BW doesn't have enough solid threats.

[Mental]

Yes, and it makes random late game Wastelands more relevant because they have an additional strain placed on their manabase due to Ghostly Prision. In all reality, it's just a bump stop, but that should be all you need against agro, just enough time to set up (although I've never had much of a problem with that personally). If it sticks around long enough to really clutter up their board, most of the threats (in my list at least) have evasion, or, worst comes to worst, just use MoR to send fat through. On a related note, has anyone else been marginally excited about the new BW cards from Eventide? While Divinity of Pride seems inherently win-more here, I'm rather curious about how the proformance of Ashling the Extinguisher will be. I don't think she'll make the deck a whole lot more powerful, as she's just an anti-agro engine, but I'm hoping that she will prove to be playable in the deck, as I feel BW doesn't have enough solid threats.

It's certainly an interesting idea because then you can use Vindicate + Wasteland to play the mana denial game to much more effect. However, I'm unconvinced that 7-8 pieces of mana denial is enough to make Prison strong against anything but aggro. Testing will tell us, I guess.

I'm really liking the maindeck as it is. There's a ton of strong threats that have to be answered (Goyf, BB, Confidant) and a lot of protection for them. It seems very well rounded.

[raharu]

It's certainly an interesting idea because then you can use Vindicate + Wasteland to play the mana denial game to much more effect. However, I'm unconvinced that 7-8 pieces of mana denial is enough to make Prison strong against anything but aggro. Testing will tell us, I guess.

I'm really liking the maindeck as it is. There's a ton of strong threats that have to be answered (Goyf, BB, Confidant) and a lot of protection for them. It seems very well rounded.
Wouldn't you only bring in Prision against agro anyway?

iDunno. BB is a bit more lifeloss than I'd like (although it'll get tested anyway, once I stop spending my money on other things. RL ftl), and I pretty much dislike green as a whole, so Tarmogoyf doesn't apeal to me (the 'hey, this plays creatures, put a Tarmogoyf in it!' bit agrivates me to no end). DC doesn't beat, and neither does MoR, so that leaves Avenger (in my build) and TS. I'd quite like to have more explosive threats. You know, stuff that comes down and the OP is like, "well fuck! I pretty much have to find removal in the next 2 turns or I'm dead! cuntfuckducks!??!!" (or something like that). You know, creatures that actually drasticly skew the board-state when they resolve. Ashling does that (against agro and agro control, at least).

[Mental]

Wouldn't you only bring in Prision against agro anyway?

iDunno. BB is a bit more lifeloss than I'd like (although it'll get tested anyway, once I stop spending my money on other things. RL ftl), and I pretty much dislike green as a whole, so Tarmogoyf doesn't apeal to me (the 'hey, this plays creatures, put a Tarmogoyf in it!' bit agrivates me to no end). DC doesn't beat, and neither does MoR, so that leaves Avenger (in my build) and TS. I'd quite like to have more explosive threats. You know, stuff that comes down and the OP is like, "well fuck! I pretty much have to find removal in the next 2 turns or I'm dead! cuntfuckducks!??!!" (or something like that). You know, creatures that actually drasticly skew the board-state when they resolve. Ashling does that (against agro and agro control, at least).

I find that Bitterblossom/Confidant both skew the board massively in your favor. While DC doesn't beat, he's guaranteed to find something that does if he sticks for 2-3 turns (and he combos with MoR). So I feel like there are a ton of explosive threats currently.

There is quite a lot of lifeloss. For me, 2 Top + 3 Jitte is usually enough to deal with this, but not always.

[raharu]

I find that Bitterblossom/Confidant both skew the board massively in your favor. While DC doesn't beat, he's guaranteed to find something that does if he sticks for 2-3 turns (and he combos with MoR). So I feel like there are a ton of explosive threats currently.

There is quite a lot of lifeloss. For me, 2 Top + 3 Jitte is usually enough to deal with this, but not always.
What would you think aout Replacing the SDTs with Worship? For some reason I'm thinking that Worship + BB/MoR could be pretty unfair, and it would make lifeloss irelevant. iDunno.

[Isamaru]

Sorry, but Worship + BB = Bombo

[Jaiminho]

What would you think aout Replacing the SDTs with Worship? For some reason I'm thinking that Worship + BB/MoR could be pretty unfair, and it would make lifeloss irelevant. iDunno.

Not like Worship saves you from going to 0 life when losing it. Key: it says damage.

[raharu]

Yeah, that would help. I'd really like to see some lifegain or something similar tough. I'm not positive that Words of Worship is the answer. It's recursive, dodges CB, and you still get a draw if confi is in play, but... Eh. It shouldn't be bad as a SB card.

[f|i[p]]

Another variant of the deck bunnies which I am working on splashes a 3rd color...Blue.

If you are planning on running the 3rd color as green, you might as well play with Rockin' Funkbrew.

With my experience in bunnies, it always lacked big threats and more disruption, that was my main problem about it.

However, looking at different incarnation, looking at the ANgels and Demons thread, mixing it with bunnies, It is not tested yet however, just an idea.

It still lacks polish... And It still lacks more threats but gives more disruption and draw.

The List

Mana: 20
Flooded strand x4
Polluted delta x4
Scrubland x2
tundra x2
underground sea x2
Swamp x1
Plains x2
island x1
Chrome Mox x2

Draw: 4
brainstorm x 4

Removal: 7
Swords to Plowshares x4
Vindicate x3

Disruption: 8
Thoughtseize x4
hymn to tourach x4

Equipment: 3
Uwzema’s Jitte x3

Creatures: 18
Mother of Runes x3
Dark Confidant x4
Spectral Lynx x3
Serra Avenger x2
Tombstalker x2
Meddling mage x 4

[Mental]

Meh, while splashing blue is an interesting idea, I don't think that MM plus BStorm are reasons to do it. Seriously, MM is a little underpowered right now, unless you're really worried about Combo, and BStorm, while ridiculous, can be replaced by Tops (as I do in my build).

However, a blue build playing, perhaps, something like BStorm, Stifle, Vindicate, and Wasteland might be interesting. It would be like Deadguy on roids.

I think EmidIns team actually developed a list like that a while back, called Cajun Fish.

[raharu]

The Exact List I'm Playing Right Now, Card for Card:

Lands: 19
Plains x6
Swamp x6
Gemstone Mine x3
Terramorphic Expanse x4

Creatures: 18
Isamaru x3
Mother of Runes x4
Dark Confidant x3
Jotun Grunt x2
Serra Avenger x3
Tomstalker x3

Equipment/ tutors: 3
E. Tutor x1
Jitte x1
Sword of Light and Shadow x1

Disruption: 8
Duress x4
Gerard's Verdict x4

Removal: 10 *(Yes, I'm aware that's super heavy, but it's a nesicary evil for me to be able to fill the slots right now)
Swords to Plowshares x4
Cruel Edict x2
Oblivion Ring x3
Mortify x1

Super-Win Tech: 2
Ajani Goldmane x2

Explaniations:

1) manabase: I'm not super rich and I have a clothes fettish. Sue me :\

2) sub-optimal card choices, i.e. Duress instead of Thoughtseize: See above.

3) Ajani MotherFucking Goldmane: Holy crap that lion-man-boy-'Walker thingy is just made of win and epic. When it lands, it generally tends to fuck something/ someone up. I can be hyper-agressive with Ajani on the board. DCs, MoRs, and Dogs turn into legit threats, Avengers are just stupid, Tombstalkers become monsterously big and swing both ways, and Grunts... Well, are Grunts. They're dumb beaters that swing into crap and kill it. The Vigilance from Ajani is nice and is really relevant in just about all matches save combo. The life gain is just what I wanted too. It doesn't have any real downside, it's recursive, and it's not something that eats it to CB (although I do hate Mystic Enforcer now...).

Well, with that in mind, here's the list I'll be working towards:

Mana: 20
Crome Moxen x4
Windswept Heath x3
Bloodstained Mire x3
Scrubland x4
Swamp x3
Plains x3

Creatures: 18
Mother of Runes x4
Dark Confidant x4
Jotun Grunt x2
Serra Avenger x3
Tomstalker x3
2x empty slots

Equipment: 2
Jitte x2

Planeswalkers: 2
Ajani Goldmane x2

Disruption: 10
Thoughtseize x4
Duress/ Cabal Therapy x2
Gerard's Verdict x4

Removal: 8
Swords to Plowshares x4
Vindicate x4

SB fodder:
Pithing Needle
Engineered Plague (Ghostly Prision?)
Extirpate
More spot discard
More Grunts??????
stuff.

/random, unwanted and unrequested update.