[Deck] Imperial Painter

[DrewliusMaximus]

Heretic works better. He has an ass of three and two-for-ones; destroying an artifact and dealing damage to an opponent without having to attack. Shattering Spree is good, but Heretic fits the theme and curve of the deck and is tutorable with Imperial Recruiter.

And you don't have to expend as many SB slots.

So what about Trinisphere? Did you miss it?

[Michael Keller]

I think Trinisphere is probably one of the most underrated cards in the format. With this new card I've read about, Ad Nauseum, when your opponent racks up zero to one cost artifacts and spells, dropping that card early will suffocate them.

I leave for basic training next week, and it will be interesting to see how this deck and the archetype evolves. Trinisphere should eventually find its way into the main deck once again. It's too important to omit with the amount of acceleration provided.

[Guy I Don't Know]

How does Imperial Painter stack up to Tarmogoyf/Top/Counterbalance/FOW builds? How would you sideboard?

[Michael Keller]

How does Imperial Painter stack up to Tarmogoyf/Top/Counterbalance/FOW builds? How would you sideboard?

Considering you play Blast effects in the main, you already have a leg-up on Counterbalance and blue-based control decks by itself. The curve of the deck (close to three) easily gets around the combo. Against creatures such as Tarmogoyf, you have weapons like Sword of Light and Shadow to up your creatures' power, and essentially putting them on a blocker as they would not want an equipped dude sneaking in for damage and then some.

As for the board, depending on if you're on the play or not, you could board in to Trinisphere. Top requires the use of mana and decks that tend to pack it (Thresh variants, more specifically) don't have a high land-count. This puts them in a predicament between searching the top three or being forced to deal with threats with cards in their hand. And with Trinisphere out, you're in essence putting them solely on EOT Top activations and shutting down harmful spells between other phases while beating them down. It really boils down to your two-mana lands that help get threats out faster.

[Guy I Don't Know]

Thanks for the input, I was thinking more on the lines of It's the Fear that have lots of three drops (deed, intuition, shackles).

Three is actually very easy to counter, at least in my experience.

[DrewliusMaximus]

I'm surprised Goblin Assault hasn't been mentioned in this thread. What about adding it to the MD along with Jittes?

18 Land
4 Mox
4 SSG

4 Recruiter
4 Magus
4 Servant
3 Jaya
1 Shusher

3 Goblin Assault
3 Jitte

8 Blast
4 Grindstone

[Wargoos]

Jitte isn't as good as SoLaS is for this deck.
Jitte doesn't gve prot from swords, as well it can't bring back our creatures(recursive Recruiter ftw?).
And you can't have more than one of them in play, which is quite bad as well.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Jitte isn't as good as SoLaS is for this deck.
Jitte doesn't gve prot from swords, as well it can't bring back our creatures(recursive Recruiter ftw?).
And you can't have more than one of them in play, which is quite bad as well.

Normally, I totally agree. But Jitte would be more beneficial to a Goblin Assault token (which has to attack each turn). I suggested Jitte as part of a package deal with Goblin Assault, but otherwise SoLS is definitely the best equipment you can play in this deck.

[chokin]

Normally, I totally agree. But Jitte would be more beneficial to a Goblin Assault token (which has to attack each turn). I suggested Jitte as part of a package deal with Goblin Assault, but otherwise SoLS is definitely the best equipment you can play in this deck.

I think that Goblin Assault is bad in this deck. I think it might be good somewhere else though.

I was considering running Jitte, but I just feel that the recursion from SoLaS is too good to ignore.

I've been considering dropping a couple of Blast effects for Tops. Blasts are great against decks packing counters and even better with a Painter on the table. Without a Painter, against many decks, it's useless. I think Top(even though shuffles are limited) might help. Maybe there's something better to smooth draws(Magma Jet was mentioned)

[DrewliusMaximus]

I think that Goblin Assault is bad in this deck.

I think you're right. The fact that the tokens have to attack makes the benefit horribly conditional. Had to ask about it though. I could see some crazy Goblin-Stompy deck with it.


I've been considering dropping a couple of Blast effects for Tops. Blasts are great against decks packing counters and even better with a Painter on the table. Without a Painter, against many decks, it's useless. I think Top(even though shuffles are limited) might help. Maybe there's something better to smooth draws(Magma Jet was mentioned)

I've definitely been considering going down to 6 Blasts. And I think Legend might be right:
Trinisphere should eventually find its way into the main deck once again. It's too important to omit with the amount of acceleration provided. If you look on deckcheck.net, the mono-red Imperial Painter decks that have placed highest in larger tournaments all have extra lock components MD (except for early versions of the deck that used Active Volcanoes). A guy in Germany has been winning with 3 MD Blood Moons, and Legend won second when he had 4 MD Trinispheres.

I think it might be good to MD either Moon or Sphere. This deck, more than any other (inlcuding Dragon Stompy), actually wants to be playing under a Blood Moon since the mana-curve gets smoothed out (and all the spells can be cast with 3 land out). On the other hand, you already have Magus, and Trinisphere offers an alternate lock piece, so you can handle a wider variety of decks. What about something like this for a Trinisphere build?:

11 Mountains
8 Tomb/City
3 Mox
4 SSG

4Trinisphere
4 Magma Jet

4 Recruiter
4 Magus
4 Painter
3 Jaya
1 Shusher

6 Blast
4 Grindstone

[Wargoos]

I would recommend running magma jets, they are soooo good at helping with the topdecks and are even more versatile in lategame.
As well the addition of 3 sphere into the mb seems quite good, but you have to cut the SoLaS, which weakens the aggroplan.

[DrewliusMaximus]

I would recommend running magma jets, they are soooo good at helping with the topdecks and are even more versatile in lategame.
As well the addition of 3 sphere into the mb seems quite good, but you have to cut the SoLaS, which weakens the aggroplan.

Yeah, I have liked Jets in this deck for a while. Also, the Trinispheres over SoLS definitely puts you in more of a control role (in game 1 at least). Although I'm sure you'd be better off with a MD SoLS aggroplan in certain metagames, I can't help but notice that none of the top-placing Imperial Painter lists in larger tournaments used SoLS. They all used either Blood Moons or Trinispheres MD (or splashed another color). It does seem to me like decks with stompy manabases do well when they maximize their chances of playing early lock pieces.

[freakish777]

I think this deck should be running 1 Goblin Welder.

Pros:

He's tutorable as a 1 of with Imperial Recruiter.
He has a neat interaction where with Painter in the bin and Grindstone in play you activate Grindstone, respond by Welding for Painter, and decking them, requiring you to only need one half of the combo in play (with the other in your graveyard) to actually win.
You already run Chrome Mox, turning a Mox into a piece of Equipment or Combo piece that got Gripped is fairly strong.

Cons:

He's a Mons's Goblin Raiders if you don't actually want to draw him.


Seems like the pros outweigh the cons.

[Wargoos]

I think the welder ist just a win more and to fragile to really be played in IP.

PS: I have 2 Imperial Recruiter to give away. Just PM me if you are interested.

€dit: Sorry m8s, they're gone by now. Sold.

[chokin]

I think the welder ist just a win more and to fragile to really be played in IP.

PS: I have 2 Imperial Recruiter to give away. Just PM me if you are interested.

I agree. I think Welder is pretty terrible. I think the coolest excuse to play him is that Grindstone -->Painter. For me, there isn't enough reason to do that though. He just doesn't do enough IMO.

[Brehn]

I don't see any connection between "win more" and "having combo pieces in your graveyard". Actually, Goblin Welder is the opposite of win more and thus should be played.

[freakish777]

At the very least I think people should be sideboarding 1. He's decent (after he loses summoning sickness he's phenominal) at bringing back cards that have been Krosan Gripped. He's an answer to everyone's favorite answer in the format (Krosan Grip).

[DrewliusMaximus]

At the very least I think people should be sideboarding 1. He's decent (after he loses summoning sickness he's phenominal) at bringing back cards that have been Krosan Gripped. He's an answer to everyone's favorite answer in the format (Krosan Grip).

I think this is right on. But I was really wanting to put 4 Relic of Progenitus in the SB as soon as it's legal. It seems like Relic and Welder would be mutually exclusive since anything that has green for Grip is probably also going to have Goyf, but maybe not. Relic does allow you to whittle away at the opponent's graveyard without wiping out your own. And hey, Relics can increase your artifact count to help feed Welder.

[cwt1220]

If you believe the current sideboards should be running one welder, what else do you believe should be in the board in the current meta game?

-Chris-

P.S. The only reason i have been having problems survival, is the 'goyfs. Anyone have an answer for those guys at all?

[THEchubbymuffin]

Goyf solutions:
1. Painters servant + grindstone + 3 mana.
2. TWO SoLS on a whelp.
3. Faerie macabre?

I think that we should come up with some kind of anti-goyf card. Mono red Goblins use spitebellows. But that doesn't help us. Trinket mage gives us the new artifact that makes goyf 0/1. Time for a splash maybe?

[chokin]

If you believe the current sideboards should be running one welder, what else do you believe should be in the board in the current meta game?

-Chris-

P.S. The only reason i have been having problems survival, is the 'goyfs. Anyone have an answer for those guys at all?

Relic+burn. It's a 2 mana to shrink Goyf, and then R to Bolt him or 1R to Jet him. Otherwise, Painter+Blast/Jaya. Or you can always rush the combo.

If one were to run Welder(I personally don't support it right now, but I might after testing), I would suggest a board that has at least:
1 Viashino Heretic/Goblin Tinkerer
1 Goblin Welder
1 Shusher
3 3Sphere
3 Relic(unless you put these in the main [I heard talk of this, I'm not crazy])
3 Pyrokinesis/Pyroclasm/Firespout
3 Open Slots

Basically 3Sphere is great against Force of Will, Daze, storm combo, low land/cost aggro, burn, etc. Relic is for gravehate and Goyf. PK, Clasm, or Spout is good for Geese(Spout), Crystalline Sliver(not PK), Ichorid+tokens, and aggro. Harry/Tink are for artifacts(duh). Shusher helps fight counters. And Welder.

[DrewliusMaximus]

P.S. The only reason i have been having problems survival, is the 'goyfs. Anyone have an answer for those guys at all?


I think that we should come up with some kind of anti-goyf card.

I'm pretty sure Relic will fill this role just fine. In fact, one of the reasons I would possibly not want to use Welder is because I'd probably have to board it in with Relic. However, I think they can coexist, but I haven't tested enough yet. Overall though, Relic should be great in this deck because (aside from SoLS if you use it) there is no dependence on the graveyard.

Also, I use 1 Stuffy Doll in the SB, which can be an unanswerable obstacle for some Goyf-containing armies. Even if your opponent has 2 Goyfs to your 1 Doll (and you have no other chump blockers), it still won't be worth it for them to attack. This can buy you alot of time (during which you get to ping them for 1 each turn too).

I have been playing recently with MD Trinispheres and I'm happy with this strategy. So, my SB is different:

4 Relic
3 Blood Moon
3 Jitte
1 Stuffy Doll
1 Viashino Heretic
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Goblin Welder
1 Gaea's Blessing

I just started using a Blessing in the SB because my friend boards in a Grindstone against me with his Dreadstill deck. He let's me provide the Servant, and then mills me. In addition to this situation, Blessing is great insurance if you are going to play against another deck with Servant/Stone. Also, I play 4 Magma Jets in the MD, so I have a chance to scry the Blessing before I draw it.

Quick question/note:


Basically 3Sphere is great against Force of Will,

I don't think the Sphere affects FOW. Am I wrong?

[chokin]

I don't think the Sphere affects FOW. Am I wrong?

It totally does. Or else Faerie Stompy would be the most pwnage deck evar.

"each spell that would cost less than three mana to play costs three mana to play"

Force would be 3UU or 3, pay 1 life, remove another blue card from your hand from the game.

[DrewliusMaximus]

It totally does. Or else Faerie Stompy would be the most pwnage deck evar.

"each spell that would cost less than three mana to play costs three mana to play"

Force would be 3UU or 3, pay 1 life, remove another blue card from your hand from the game.

Nice.

[Forbiddian]

Relic+burn. It's a 2 mana to shrink Goyf, and then R to Bolt him or 1R to Jet him. Otherwise, Painter+Blast/Jaya. Or you can always rush the combo.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, resolve Relic, then resolve Jet, then activate the Relic. If you think he has Krosan Grip and you're worried about him gripping the Relic in response, cast Relic, then activate Relic immediately, then cast Jet. Unless you have him read for a Stifle, it's 99% your best bet (also you immediately draw off of the Scry which is tech). They could in response to the jet sac a land and keep the Goyf if you did it the other way. You might know this, but it's really important not to forget how damage works.

Creatures with damage >= toughness die as a state-based effect. State-based effects are checked when a player would receive priority.

Although Magma Jet goes to the graveyard as the last part of its resolution (so AFTER it dealt two damage to the 1/2 Tarmogoyf), the game doesn't actually realize that Tarmogoyf is dead until Tarmogoyf is a happy 2/3 with 2 damage on it because Instants and Land in the yard.

If, however, you deal even a single point of damage to the Goyf, activating Relic is a death sentence for the Goyf later in the turn. No matter what its controller does, there will be a point after the resolution of the Relic ability where no cards are in either graveyard and active player gets priority.

Unless they have Giant Growth.

[chokin]

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, resolve Relic, then resolve Jet, then activate the Relic. If you think he has Krosan Grip and you're worried about him gripping the Relic in response, cast Relic, then activate Relic immediately, then cast Jet. Unless you have him read for a Stifle, it's 99% your best bet (also you immediately draw off of the Scry which is tech). They could in response to the jet sac a land and keep the Goyf if you did it the other way. You might know this, but it's really important not to forget how damage works.

Creatures with damage >= toughness die as a state-based effect. State-based effects are checked when a player would receive priority.

Although Magma Jet goes to the graveyard as the last part of its resolution (so AFTER it dealt two damage to the 1/2 Tarmogoyf), the game doesn't actually realize that Tarmogoyf is dead until Tarmogoyf is a happy 2/3 with 2 damage on it because Instants and Land in the yard.

If, however, you deal even a single point of damage to the Goyf, activating Relic is a death sentence for the Goyf later in the turn. No matter what its controller does, there will be a point after the resolution of the Relic ability where no cards are in either graveyard and active player gets priority.

Unless they have Giant Growth.

I didn't necessarily mean do it exactly as I said. I think that the way you said is best. Resolve burn, then remove everything. If you manage to get Relic early, and they don't have Goyf, rip away at the graveyard!

[DrewliusMaximus]

Great advice Forbiddian. I guess the same applies for combat also right? I know you can pop the Relic early to try and save you own guys. But if you want to prevent fast-effect tricks from keeping their Goyfs alive, can you chump block, let your own guys die, and then pop the Relic? (let me know if I need to reword this question)

[chokin]

I'm excited to play Relic. I picked 4 up yesterday(shh! it's a secret). I think a lot of the timing on popping Relic is knowing your opponents deck/hand as much as you can. I'm not talking about reading minds, just if it looks like they have Stifles or Grips, then play around it. Just use common sense.

[DrewliusMaximus]

I'm curious what others think about the Imperial Painter list just posted on deckcheck (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20142). It's got 14 Mountains, 3 Grindstones, Furnace Whelp...seems strange to me, but it placed third in a 40-something person tournament. Is the Magic League an online tournament?

[Wargoos]

To improve the aggro matchups and the beatdown plan of this deck, i came up whit this list:

Painted Goyf Vol. 1

2 esg
2 ssg
4 goyf
4 recruiter
4 painter
1 jaya
1 dragon whelp!!
1 shusher
4 magus
4 chrome mox
2 sarkhan vol
4 Magma Jets
4 grindstone
4 reb
2 solas
3 foothills
3 taiga
4 tomb
4 city
4 mountain
Side:
4 trinisphere
4 grip
3 faerie macabre
2 viashino heretic
2 REB

Recent list from 10.15.08

Now let me explain:
Since Tarmogoyf is the best beater in the whole legacy environment i thought about an addition of the little dude into the painter deck, to improve our game vs aggro decks on the one hand and our own aggresivness on the other.
As well green brings us grips in the side, which is a strong addition on its own.
But it get's even better: With the print of the new SoA "Sarkhan Vol" we get another alternative win condition to combo and beatdown. Sarkhan fit's the deck just tooo well, he supports the beatdown plan, pumping our little goyfs and giving haste is neat, but we can steal an opponents creature as well, which fungs both, support and protection. With his ultimate you can kill the opponnent in no time, big token with evasion are just devastating. And the best thing about it is that we can play Sarkhan in early game - thanks to the DS manabase. A goodie is that Sarkhan can be manafixing too - imprinting in a chrome mox, we have both manacolours out of it.
Since we are playing the apes, we can splash the original apes - Elvish Spirit Guides in the deck, fixing our manabase without taking up important slots. Furthermore a painter on green helps with our manabase as well - he paints our imprintet cards the chosen color as well. Don't forget that.

€dit: Played several games against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh Decks and i'm amazed.
Goyf plus SoLaS is just the win against little mongoose and little goyfs.
Luv this deck!

[Henrik]

Wow.
In addition to the recruiters you have Goyfs, sarkhan and duals / fetch now.
That looks like an expensive deck ;)

[Adan]

Wow.
In addition to the recruiters you have Goyfs, sarkhan and duals / fetch now.
That looks like an expensive deck ;)

Indeed, it's the best way to throw out more money than needed.

Patric Hiness, one of our regulars in Hassloch, plays Imperial Painter, too and I like his list very much. I'd play it if I would not have to spend 360 Bucks for the set of Imperial Recruiters. -.-

//NAME: imperialpainter

10 Mountain
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chrome Mox
1 Vexing Shusher
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyroblast
3 Blood Moon
2 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Grindstone
4 Painter's Servant

// Sideboard:
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Stuffy Doll
SB: 2 Viashino Heretic
SB: 2 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Gaea's Blessing
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Powder Keg

Additional moon effects mage the deck more Devastating against Loam-Control, Threshold or such. The colorsplash makes the deck more inconsistent. Additionally, cutting Blasts for crap like Magma Jet is the best way to make the matchup against Goyfs in general more difficult. I also don't like the antisynergy between Taigas and Magus of the Moon, that has something of a design fail because it makes you reliant on Chrome Mox a lot.

I'd say there's actually no reason to splash a 2nd color as it steals a lot of consistency from this deck.

Don't forget that Imperial Painter is also able to simply beat the opponent down. A resolved Blood Moon can already knock out some decks. If they still try to annoy you, blast away their Basiclands and win.

[Odd Mutation]

Hi Adan,

Looks like a very intersting deck. I play Painter in Vintage (click here (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36731.0) for my last tournament effort) and was looking to play it in Legacy too. Your list looks very strong and I like the fact that it's so clear cut.

The only thing that bothers me is the fact that you're reliant on drawing a Grindstone, you don't seem to be playing anything to find a Grindstone quickly. That's why I would understand people suggesting Magma Jet. Would Sensei's Divining Top with Fetchlands be a reasonable suggetion?

Robrecht.

[DrewliusMaximus]

The only thing that bothers me is the fact that you're reliant on drawing a Grindstone, you don't seem to be playing anything to find a Grindstone quickly. That's why I would understand people suggesting Magma Jet. Would Sensei's Divining Top with Fetchlands be a reasonable suggetion?

Surprisingly, Grindstone is not needed many times to win. Like Adan mentioned, you can beat down with your small creatures while you control the board with Blasts. In some cases, you can totally Moon-lock your opponent by blasting basic lands. The list Adan posted maximizes that Moon strategy. It's been said previously in this thread that the deck doesn't need the Grindstone combo to win, but it can. As opposed to lists that use things like Trinket Mage to tutor for the Grindstone, the mono-red list usually plays like a weird kind of control deck that is designed to lucksack win from time to time.

Nonetheless, I still think Magma Jet can work well in this deck. One of the biggest weaknesses I have found is not the inability to find a Grindstone necessarily, but the overall dependence on topdecking. Scrying definitely helps guarantee a useful topdeck (as does Jaya in a different way). I favor Magma Jet over Top because, in addition to being red and automatically removing useless cards from the top, Jet also serves as removal/threat, and it seems to me that this deck does not like to spend mana/turns manipulating the card order without also threatening the opponent or answering an opponent's threat.

So far, I think the best approach to Imperial Painter is to use either MD Blood Moons, like in the German list Adan posted, or MD Trinispheres. Either way, you're leveraging the manabase's acceleration to maximize the chances of early (soft) lock pieces.


Additionally, cutting Blasts for crap like Magma Jet is the best way to make the matchup against Goyfs in general more difficult.

I think this is generally correct. However, I have been playing a bit recently with only 6 MD Blasts and 4 Magma Jets. I also use 4 MD Trinispheres, which helps slow down alot of Goyf-based decks, but thus far I have actually liked using 2 less Blasts and getting the benefit of a full set of Jets. Additionally, if you SB 4 Relic of Progenitus, Goyfs become Jet-able after game 1.

[Slayer001]

I did some playtesting with this deck today, without the blood moons added main. against an red Aggro Loam deck. this was not a very good matchup. I went in topdeck mode to often.

Some things thatI could have changed were definately blood moons in main deck and magma jet would be a nice addon also. On the other hands the 8 blasts were nice. And this deck relies on grindstone to win more then to beat down the opponent. especially against the loam deck who constantly has bigger creatures and keeps reccuring them with volrath's stronghold or sacks enough lands to kill my creatures with seismic Assault. grindstone was an heavy needed thing in that matchup. I boarded in needles and Faerie macabres but the faeries didn't helped much because he just dredges in responce to the ability of the faerie with a cycled land and takes LFtL back to his hand and so you can't target that.

Is there any way to make this matchup better ? Blood moons maindeck will help a bit I think.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Is there any way to make this matchup better ? Blood moons maindeck will help a bit I think.

Relic of Progenitus! These things are good against Goyfs in general, but they are especially brutal against Aggro Loam. While I haven't been able to use them in a tournament yet (I plan to in a couple of weeks though), from the games I have played, they seem to be the exact anti-graveyard solution Imperial Painter was looking for. It think there should be 4 Relics in the SB for sure.

Blood Moons in the MD is a good idea. I believe that there needs to be either Moons or Trinispheres in the MD, and which one depends on the metagame of course. I've been trying Trinispheres lately because I felt they would affect a wider variety of decks, but I now I'm leaning towards the Moons because the Spheres can affect our own spells adversely. Also, I was playing only 6 Blasts with the Spheres since they became 3cc spells, and over time I missed the other 2 Blasts. My only concern with Blood Moons is that there are enough decks that aren't hurt badly by them. So, I might MD only 2 and keep an extra in the SB.

[Adan]

Huh?

Blood Moon maindeck is a usual thing, isn't it? Or am I wrong? Patric Hiness, one of our regulars and the only IP-player around here plays 7 Blood Moon effects maindeck which wins him the majority of his games.

People should do that by default.

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19950

However, Aggroloam seems to be a mediocre matchup at all since they can still wreck you with Seismic Assault under Blood Moon. I guess comboing as fast as possible is the way to go.

[DrewliusMaximus]

As far as deckcheck goes, Patric is the most successful player so far with Imperial Painter. And since he uses 3 MD Blood Moon, maybe that is the default. But there's not exactly an abundance of info about the deck, so it's hard to say that there is a default build at this point.

I know that A Legend was one the American players to pick the deck up early and place with it, and he never used MD Moons. His most successful tournament was with MD Trinispheres. I finished first at a small tournament using neither Moons or Spheres MD (although I will use one of the two when I play at the next tournament).

If there is a default build right now, I think that Patric's is the best candidate. But it seems to me that there is still room for discussion about either an optimal build, or which MD pieces work best in various metagames. But I could be wrong.

[Wargoos]

Concerning Patricks List:
How does he find the 4th Chrome Mox?
Wasn't it too often too death?

[Adan]

Concerning Patricks List:
How does he find the 4th Chrome Mox?
Wasn't it too often too death?

They are essential. That's why there are 4 of them. And everytime you can imprint SSG, you will do so as it turns SSG into a permanent manasource.

[Wargoos]

Uff, it was really horrible game, I hope that it is not true that Recruiter would be reprinted in 11th...
Who told u that?!
I mean, i payed 50€/piece for my recruiters and i dont really want them to go down to nothing!

@Topic:
Played I.P. at the PT Berlin yesterday and went 4-4.
Actually it should be easily a 7-1.
I lost to:
Armageddon Staxx
NQGw
Belcher (srsly cut that shit out)
Red Sligh...

The first match was vs. Staxx and i lost because he did things like first turn armageddon an so on.
He was just so lucky, and i dont play the deck too long.
Lose to NQGw was due to Manascrew.
Red Sligh was like 0-2, he always had the burn for the servant...
And heres the situation why i lost to Belcher:
He mulligans to 6, keeps.
Because i won game2 with spheres he is starting the game.
He puts LED to play, says go.
I draw.
Just have City and Mountain and no other acc, so i put my Servant to play.
He draws and its my turn again.
I draw, play mountain and think about if i should blast his led or go for the 3sphere.
3sphere is the better choice i guess and play it.
He draws, just says "nice" and then does the following stuff:
Remove SSG from game, Remove SSG from Game, Remove ESG from Game, Remove ESG from game - Charbelcher - Go Off.
Srsly guys, that's just hilarious.
Nertherless i won to:
-Belcher
-Goblins
-TES
-Landstill

Oh and yes, i played the list adan posted above.
So far.

[Maveric78f]

he did things like first turn armageddon an so on.
???

[Wargoos]

he did things like first turn armageddon an so on.
This sounds pretty stupid i know, but this move won him the game =/ (dont remember the details but a lot of manascrew on my side helped him a lot...)

[DrewliusMaximus]

I played Imperial Painter in a tournament in Garland TX a week ago, and then again in tournament in Austin Friday night.

The Garland tournament was only 10 players (it was the weekend of states), and being the first time I played magic in a little while, I did terribly, going 1-2. I played like an idiot the first match against a Boros deck, and then got screwed the second match against Dreadstill w/ Goyf (I had to mulligan to 4 in the second game before I saw 1 land). I won the final match against a StifleNought deck. I used the following:

Standard Land
4 Mox
Standard Stuff: 4 SSG, 4 Magus, 4 Recruiter, 4 Servant, 4 Grindstone, 8 Blast
3 Jaya
1 Shusher
4 Magma Jet
2 Blood Moon
SB:
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Jitte
3 Trinisphere
1 Stuffy Doll
1 Wildfire Emissary
1 Viashino Heretic
1 Hearth Kami
1 Blood Moon

In the first match, the SB Wildfire Emissary should have won me the last game if I didn’t play so badly. However, I decided that SoLS should be in the SB over Jitte, and so I removed the Emissary from the SB. I also realized that if Blood Moons are going to be in the MD, then there should be more than 2 to maximize the chances of an early one to turn off fetchlands. So I changed the MD slightly to look a little more like the one that has done well in Germany, and changed the SB, and brought this to the tournament in Austin:

Same MD as above except 3 Magma Jet and 3 Blood Moon
SB:
4 Relic
4 Trinisphere
4 SoLS
1 Stuffy Doll
1 Heretic
1 Shusher

The Austin tournament was 16 players, and I went 2-1-1. Unfortunately, my first match was played slowly, and so 5 turns was called right after we started the third game, at which point I was on my way to beating down UGW Thresh with a first turn Magus (he only had 1 basic Island), a Relic out, and 2 Blasts in hand. If I hadn’t tied that one, I would have been in Top 4 I think. I went on to beat mono-Red Goblins, lose to White Weenie (with 4 SoLS brought in this was a painful loss), and beat mono-Black Pox. I was pretty happy with the MD. I liked the MD Moons even though I played several mono-colored decks, the Magma Jets were always useful, and especially with the Moons in there, I liked having 3 Jayas instead of 2. And the only thing I thought about the SB was that I probably don’t need another Shusher, so there’s a slot I can use for something else. As always, I had a great time playing this deck, and I feel like for the most part, the deck gave me the tools to win. I need to play a little tighter for sure though. If anyone has advice as far as the last SB slot (or any other card choices), I’d love to hear it.

Also, props to Josh at Comic Book Craze in Garland, Nick at Battleforge Games in Austin, and all the peeps playing legacy at those two places.

[Van Phanel]

Random thought that just occured to me:

Is a one-of Siege-Gang Comander viable in this deck? It can be fetched when you go for the beatdown mode after all.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Is a one-of Siege-Gang Comander viable in this deck? It can be fetched when you go for the beatdown mode after all.

I could see some advantages to Siege-Gang with its tokens. It would compete with stuff like Dragon Whelp or Jaya when you are in beats mode, and the Commander costs more. It seems like Jaya serves the beat-down purpose well enough MD considering she also has synergy with Servant (and has the potential board-sweeping effect). But I think it's a good idea to try some other Recruitable creatures in this deck.

I was going to wait until I played this a little more before posting it, but here's what I'm trying after going 2-2 at a tournament last week:

10 Mountain
8 Tomb/City
4 Mox
4 SSG

4 Magus
4 Recruiter
4 Servant
3 Jaya
1 Orchish Settlers

4 Grindstone
8 Blast

3 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere

So far, I definitely like having both Blood Moon and Trinisphere MD. It has worked for Dragon Stompy, and I think it works equally well (if not better) in this deck. I'm not sold yet on the Settlers, but in a few instances so far it was devastating in combination with the Blood Moons/Trinispheres. Anyway, I'm going to try the above list at the next tourney I go to and see what happens.

I'm not totally sure on the SB, but I know I want:

4 Relic of Progenitus
4 SoLS
1 Stuffy Doll
1 Vexing Shusher

I need some artifact-hate and some anti-aggro, and I was thinking that another Trinisphere might be worth it. Any ideas are appreciated.

As far as some other Recruitable options, here's some stuff I was thinking of:

Wojek Embermage
Bloodfire Kavu
Stingscourger
Goblin Sharpshooter

[DrewliusMaximus]

I got 1st in a 16-person tournament last night with the following list:

8 Tomb/City
8 Mountain
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mox
4 SSG

4 Magus
4 Recruiter
4 Servant
2 Jaya
1 Shusher

6 Blast
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Magma Jet

3 Sensei's Top
4 Grindstone

SB
4 Trinisphere
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Blood Moon
1 Stuffy Doll
1 Wildfire Emissary
1 Bloodfire Kavu
1 Viashino Heretic

I won the first match against Team America 2-1, lost the second to Dreadstill 0-2, won the third against UBW Rogue Control 2-0, and won the fourth against White Weenie 2-0. In the top 8, I beat UGW Thresh 2-1. In the top 4 I beat Storm Combo 2-0. In the finals, I beat Ichorid 2-1.

Major comments:

Top was the difference maker. I can't believe I ever doubted that this should be in here. The Jets work well with them, and you can even Grindstone your own top 2 cards if necessary.

The only time I wished I had 8 Blasts was in the Dreadstill match, and it wouldn't have even mattered then if I had Stingscourger in the SB (which I took out at the last minute). From now on, I will have Stingscourger instead of Kavu in the SB, and as of now I like 6 Blasts. Tops let you find them when you need them, and with 6 you're not quite as screwed if Servant is killed.

Relic of Progenitus is really good.

[Michael Keller]

Good to see Imperial Painter still doing well. I was reading some of those new inclusions you referred to and they seem quite viable.

I really miss this deck (and playing Magic in general).

[DrewliusMaximus]

Yeah, it's too bad there's one less IP player since there seems to be almost no action on this thread. But I appreciate you protecting our country.

After 3 disappointing tournaments, it was pretty clear to me that something had to change. Some of the stuff I used is surely meta-dependent, but after yesterday, I'd have to say that the Tops are non-negotiable. I know it was only one (relatively small) tournament, but Top is exactly what this deck needed to carry it into the mid/late game. And if you're going to use Top, Magma Jet is a great complement.

[cwt1220]

I am definitely going to try out your list and the next tournament i go to. I did alright at the $1,000 tournament in Binghamton in August, but went 4-3 and the Source tournament. I really think that the fetchlands, tops, and jets are going to help drastically.

-Chris-

[DrewliusMaximus]

Go for it. Try and post something about the results.

In addition to the obvious benefits, Top also allows this deck to sink extra floating mana. This is another reason I probably always wanted to see a Magma Jet instead of a Lightning Bolt.

So, I've been testing the deck I used in the last tournament with 4 Jets and no Bolts:

-3 Bolts
+1 Magma Jet
+1 Stingscourger
+1 Jaya

I think that in addition to Shusher, Stingscourger is another answer I'd like to have MD. And I was thinking about using the final slot for some other creature like Shard Phoenix or Red Ashling, but I think I'd rather just have another Jaya.

[cwt1220]

A friend of mine played this list at a local tourney and went 4-1 overall and won. His only loss of the day was to 4C landstill, cause it seemed to draw everything that it needed to beat him. Overall, I love the additions of the tops and jets, they make the deck much more consistent.

-Chris-

[DrewliusMaximus]

A friend of mine played this list at a local tourney and went 4-1 overall and won. His only loss of the day was to 4C landstill, cause it seemed to draw everything that it needed to beat him. Overall, I love the additions of the tops and jets, they make the deck much more consistent.

Nice. If your friend had Moons in the board, then luck must have taken a huge shit on him in that 4C Landstill match. Do you know if your friend used Bolts or 4 Jets + Stingscourger, or something slightly different?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

You know what goes well with Top?


17 Snow-Covered Mountains
4 Scrying Sheets
2 Mouth of Ronom

amirite?

[honz]

What type of moron would run top in a deck without fetches?

amirite?


/sarcasm



[EDIT] On a more productive note, i have been toying around with the deck alot and have really liked it. By running top, i don't see why you don't run more fetches. This would give you more shuffle effects (in addition to magma, and recruiter) and thining to find what you need. The damage will often be mitigated by the 4-8 blood moon effects you run.

In a format made of 90% multicolored decks, I don't see why you would run any less than 5-6 blood moons in the main, and atleast 7 total. This deck can drop turn 1 moon like it's its job, and i think it should abuse that as much as possible. Often times blood moon gives you just as much tempo advantage as magma jet / lightning bolt.

just some thoughts...

[DrewliusMaximus]

On a more productive note, i have been toying around with the deck alot and have really liked it. By running top, i don't see why you don't run more fetches. This would give you more shuffle effects (in addition to magma, and recruiter) and thining to find what you need. The damage will often be mitigated by the 4-8 blood moon effects you run.

While I haven't played enough tournament games with Top yet, so far I would not want more than 2 fetchlands. Jets, Recruiters, and even Grindstones already help get rid of useless cards. More fetches increases vulnerability to Stifle. And there have been a significant number of occasions where I have a fetchland out, look with Top, and then want access to more mana without having to reshuffle (I even considered dropping fetches completely because this has happened so much recently).


In a format made of 90% multicolored decks, I don't see why you would run any less than 5-6 blood moons in the main, and atleast 7 total. This deck can drop turn 1 moon like it's its job, and i think it should abuse that as much as possible. Often times blood moon gives you just as much tempo advantage as magma jet / lightning bolt.

At least according to deckcheck, the most successful Imperial Painter lists have had Blood Moon MD. I personally prefer it in the SB right now, but it's obviously a good option against alot of decks. I'm pretty sure that if you're going to have any Moons MD, there should be at least 3 because the most universally disruptive thing to do with them is turn off fetchlands early, so odds of a 1st-turn Moon should be maximized.

Of the 5 tournaments I've taken Imperial Painter to, I got 1st twice and failed to make top 4 3 times. I had Moons in the MD the 3 times I didn't place, and Moons in the SB the 2 times I won. For the most part, I'm sure this is because we don't have a traditional metagame in Texas. But I also feel like 4 Magus + 4 Recruiter offers enough Mooning for the MD, and using the other MD slots for Tops + Jets provides an always-applicable 1st game strategy.


You know what goes well with Top?


17 Snow-Covered Mountains
4 Scrying Sheets
2 Mouth of Ronom

amirite?

I could see taking the deck in new direction with this, but right now I'm addicted to Stompy speed. Also, Blood Moon would kind of screw this up.

PS - I like Jack's Political-Type Blog.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Thanks.

I don't see how Blood Moon would screw that up too much. At worst it just means you have a lot of mountains. Whereas a lot of the time they can't cast crap anymore.

As much as I seek to destroy rival Painter-Grindstone decks, I'm being serious. Think about the Scrying Sheets-Top engine. It's really good and low maintenance. You'll be surprised.

[JagR]

I've been decktesting for a while now and the decks' worst matchup (by far) is in my opinion some sort of monoblack, featuring cards like thoughtseize, instant creature removal (6-8 usually), dark confidant, jitte, SoFaI, tombstalker, hymn to tourach, d'ritual etc.

Whenever i play painter's servant, they just let the "comes into play trigger" go onto the stack and respond to it by killing the servant =/

Anyone else having problems dealing with this sort of deck?

[KillemallCFH]

Whenever i play painter's servant, they just let the "comes into play trigger" go onto the stack and respond to it by killing the servant =/That doesn't work. It isn't a triggered ability (it uses "As" instead of "When"), so it doesn't use the stack. The opposing player can, however, wait until you activate Grindstone with Painter in play and kill the Painter in response, causing you to mill only 2 cards (or a couple more on rare occasions).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

You know you can just name "black" with Painter's Servant against black decks, and that will usually shutdown most of their removal, yes?

[KillemallCFH]

You know you can just name "black" with Painter's Servant against black decks, and that will usually shutdown most of their removal, yes?I'd imagine in a deck like the one described, Smother would most likely be present, in which case naming blue and giving yourself 8 one-mana Counterspell/Vindicates seems better.

But if you're certain their only removal is, for instance, Snuff Out, then naming black is a sound plan.

[Michael Keller]

You know you can just name "black" with Painter's Servant against black decks, and that will usually shutdown most of their removal, yes?

Worked for me. I remember that being especially useful against Snuff Out. Typically against mono-black decks you're going to find yourself in situations where it comes down to whoever has established threats on the board will end up getting the upper hand.

There's also this card called Sword of Light and Shadow, which, from my experience, wins you games almost aways when equipped to just about any creature you slap it on.

Depending on the amount of discard or removal they choose to play (and depending on who plays first), you can get your combo online sooner than later. There is more than just a single way to win with I.P., which balances the match pretty evenly. I remember playing against against a mono-black build at Hadley one time en route to the Finals. You'd be stunned how effective Grindstone by itself works in that match. Those decks don't run a lot of lands and I must have milled through at least 30 cards in the guys' deck before finishing the deal with a pair of Imperial Recruiters going the distance (one with a SoLS attached).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

That might not be the best plan if you've lost your entire hand to discard, though.

[Michael Keller]

That might not be the best plan if you've lost your entire hand to discard, though.

Both decks typically go into top-deck mode, and considering the turn progression using discard each turn, if they've depleted your hand, your opponent will then have to draw a threat themselves in order to compensate for their own expenditure. It's the old classic scenario who draws into what first.

[DrewliusMaximus]

I'm not sure, but I think I have won more than I have lost against Mono-Black and Eva Green since going down to 6 Blasts and using 4 Jets + 3 Tops + 1 Stingscourger. I haven't played this in a tournament yet, but...


Both decks typically go into top-deck mode

with Tops and Jets you win the topdeck war;


You know you can just name "black" with Painter's Servant against black decks

you only have 6 Blasts after doing this, which can be filtered away with Tops, Jets and Fetches;

and Stingscourger is essentially a removal spell against Tombstalker.

The last tournament I went to in Austin had a couple of discard decks I think, so hopefully I'll get to test against one the next time I go.

[Carabas]

Culd someone discuss boarding options, and (more importantly) what they're used for? I've MWS'd this deck a little bit, but I generally have no clue what to play in the board, and what to board out.

[chokin]

Culd someone discuss boarding options, and (more importantly) what they're used for? I've MWS'd this deck a little bit, but I generally have no clue what to play in the board, and what to board out.

Looking at the main page we have:
[4x] Trinisphere
[4x] Pyrokinesis
[3x] Faerie Macabre
[2x] Viashino Heretic
[1x] Vexing Shusher
[1x] Silent Arbiter

-3Sphere is there to help against control and combo.
-PK is for aggro. It's free and helps deal with EtW tokens.
-Macabre is free and uncounterable graveyard removal that comes back thru Swords.
-Heretic is for artifacts.
-Shusher is against counters and Counterbalance.
-Arbiter is against aggro decks.

Some builds use a singleton Stuffy Doll which pretty much fills the role of Arbiter. I've also seen Shattering Spree and Gorilla Shaman and Goblin Tinkerer as artifact removal. Relic of Progenitus has also been seen in builds to add to your GY removal and it cantrips. People have also used a single Gaea's Blessing to negate other Grindstone decks. Pithing Needles have been used before too.

Most importantly, if you are thinking about adding creatures to the deck, you have to make sure that they have 2 power or less to be able to be tutored by Imperial Recruiter.

[DrewliusMaximus]

I used to play something very similar to what Chokin listed. But the SB I've been using recently is:

4 Trinisphere
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Blood Moon
1 Stuffy Doll
1 Shard Phoenix
1 Wildfire Emissary
1 Viashino Heretic

MD:
8 Mountain
2 Bloodstained Mire
8 City/Tomb
4 Mox
4 SSG
4 Magus
4 Recruiter
4 Servant
3 Jaya
1 Shusher
1 Stingscourger
6 Blast
4 Grindstone
3 Top
4 Magma Jet

I would use Gaea's Blessing instead of Wildfire Emissary if I saw more mill combo and less White Weenie/Death and Taxes.

For the most part I agree with Chokin's summary. I would say though that Doll is different than Arbiter. I'm using Phoenix in the slot where Arbiter would be. Doll and Emissary serve as creatures that your opponent can't remove. My biggest problem with Arbiter is that it is too easy to deal with, especially when your opponent boards in extra artifact hate.

Here's some examples of how I've boarded...

UGW Thresh: +3 Moon, +4 Relic / -4 Grindstone, -3 Jet

UGR/UGB Thresh / Team America: +3 Moon, +4 Relic, +1 Doll / -4 Grindstone, -4 Jet,

Dreadstill: +3 Moon, +4 Trinisphere, +1 Heretic / -4 Grindstone, -4 Jet

Eva Green: +4 Relic, +1 Doll / -4 Gindstone (since you can name "black" with Servant here, Blasts could come out instead of Grindstone), -1 Shusher

The Rock: +4 Relic, +3 Moon, +1 Doll / -4 Grindstone, -1 Jaya, -2 Blast, -1 Shusher

Ichorid: +4 Trinisphere, +4 Relic, +1 Phoenix / -4 Jet, -3 Jaya, -1 Shusher, -1 Top

Affinity: +4 Trinisphere, +3 Moon, +1 Heretic / -4 Jet, -1 Shusher, -1 Stingscourger, -2 Blast

Goblins: +4 Trinisphere, +1 Doll, +1 Phoenix, +1 Heretic, +1 Emissary / -6 Blast, -1 Shusher, -1 Jaya

Elf Combo: +1 Phoenix, +1 Doll / -1 Shusher, -1 Stingscourger (Trinisphere should come in here too)

Storm Combo: +4 Trinisphere, +1 Phoenix / -4 Jet, -1 Stingscourger

Charblecher: +4 Trinisphere, +1 Phoenix, +1 Heretic / -4 Jet, -1 Stingscourger, -1 Shusher

White Weenie / Death and Taxes: +1 Emissary, +1 Heretic / -1 Shusher, -1 Stingscourger

Faerie Stompy: +1 Heretic / -1 Top

Aggro Loam (w/out Confidant): +4 Relic, +3 Moon, +1 Doll, +1 Heretic / -4 Grindstone, -4 Jet, -1 Top

[Benie Bederios]

Hi,

A friend of mine, wants to take this deck to a Tournament and we tested some macthups.. Most matches where quite winnable, but there whas 1 awfull matchup and 2 less than possitive matchups.

The problem matchup was Goblins. I( the goblin player) could even keep weak hands and win. Goblins has to much cards to remove the Servant and that gives Painter with to many dead cards.

The other 2 matchups where UWb Landstill and Aggro-Loam.


Especially Aggro-Loam(RGb) and Goblins are played here. How whould this matchup be played and what could be brought in from the SB. I couldn't find matchups analysis in the OP...

BB

[DrewliusMaximus]

Hi,

A friend of mine, wants to take this deck to a Tournament and we tested some macthups.. Most matches where quite winnable, but there whas 1 awfull matchup and 2 less than possitive matchups.

The problem matchup was Goblins. I( the goblin player) could even keep weak hands and win. Goblins has to much cards to remove the Servant and that gives Painter with to many dead cards.

The other 2 matchups where UWb Landstill and Aggro-Loam.


Especially Aggro-Loam(RGb) and Goblins are played here. How whould this matchup be played and what could be brought in from the SB. I couldn't find matchups analysis in the OP...

BB

I have to admit that I haven't played against multi-colored Goblins as much as mono-red, but I have not had nearly as much trouble with it as I have with Aggro-Loam. What IP build is your friend playing BB (are they using MD moons)?

Against Goblins, I side out all Blasts because you don't want to name "blue" with Servant. It is also as you said...you won't win against Goblins with one-to-one removal. If you look at my last post, I typically board in Stuffy Doll, Shard Phoenix, Viashino Heretic, Wildfire Emissary and Trinispheres. Phoenix is usually gg, Heretic blocks any single Gob and takes care of Vials, and unless they're playing STP or Jitte, Doll is invincible. The thing I've wondered about is playing Moons instead of Trinisphere against multi-colored.

My last post shows what I usually do against Loam w/out Confidant, but against Loam w/ Confidant, I'd probably go -4 Grindstone, -3 Top, -2 Blast, +4 Relic of Progenitus, +3 Blood Moon, +1 Stuffy Doll, +1 Heretic.

Against no-Nought (UWB) Landstill I would definitely bring in 3 Moons and Emissary, and take out Stingscourger and Magma Jets. Maybe it's worth taking out more to bring in Trinispheres? Also, Jaya or Shusher would be my most likely initial Recruiter targets.


Think about the Scrying Sheets-Top engine. It's really good and low maintenance. You'll be surprised.

I tested this a little, and the engine is definitely cool. I'm not sure that it is worth replacing the Stompy manabase here, but it makes me want to try Quinn...and try it with Black.

And Jack, I think you should start a petition to make The Princess Bride part of U.S. and Israeli anti-terrorism training.

[Yui]

Hiya, i'm thinking of playing this deck on a tournament(yup the guy BB talked about)
I'm playing the following build. The only problem is that i'm not sure about the list. I have the feeling i miss something. I will test the tops and fetch.

4 Imperial Recruiter
2 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Painter's Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Vexing Shusher
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Pyroblast
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Blood Moon
4 Chrome Mox
4 Grindstone
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain

Side;
1 Viashino Heretic
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Silent Arbiter
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Shattering Spree
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Trinisphere

I play 7 moons effects, because my meta is dual heavy. I hate and love SoLs sometimes its insane but most of the time it's useless.
The random draws late game are pretty annoying. That will become a less problem with tops and fetch?


I have tested this deck against, Stax(Dutch stax), UGWB ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, Agro loam GBR, Eva green, UWb landstill, dreaded stalker, 3 color goblins and ANT.

the worst matchups where goblins and Loam. DrewliusMaximus helpt with his advice after some testing with a different sideboard i could win more often.

I dont know is it's my style of playing or that i suck? But i noticed that my match ups against Eva green where 50/50 if i play i win if i draw he wins?
I had the same feeling against Stax but most of the time i could win i gues 60/40 ?


I was thinking about this build with Top;

4 Imperial Recruiter
2 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Painter's Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Vexing Shusher
4 Magma Jet
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Blood Moon
4 Chrome Mox
4 Grindstone
3 Top
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
8 Mountain
2 Mire's

the sideboard is not finished ithink i will look like this;
4 Trinisphere
3/4 Relic of Progenitus
1 Silent Arbiter
2/3 Shattering Spree
1 Stuffy Doll
1 Shard Phoenix
1 Wildfire Emissary
1 Viashino Heretic

Has anyone some thoughts?

[Michael Keller]

If your meta is dual heavy, running three Blood Moons seems a little too much, especially with four Magus already. Blood Moon itself can be a dead draw late game where you'd almost certainly want to find something to try and end the game with. Remember, you've included Top with a few fetches and Magma Jets. That could work - ideally - but now that you have the ability to sift through cards you won't need seven Moon effects. Six should be sufficient, at most.

I heard someone mention taking Simian Spirit Guides out of the deck and replacing him with Tops.

That made me cringe, literally.

He is so important in this deck. Being able to pitch to a Chrome Mox, free mana for a surprise Blast effect, and very importantly, being able to pay one more mana to a Daze is critical. Simian Spirit Guide is probably the M.V.P. of Imperial Painter because of his multilateral capability.

[Yui]

Taking out SSG sounds terrible. I love it first turn magus/moon painter with backup. Helps against daze's.

I will test it with one bloodmoon less. What do you think of 1 dragon welp main and 3 sword of light and shadow?

-3 bloodmoons
-1 mox
??

A friend of mine played it like that. I'm not sure about it i don't want to miss the early moon effects.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Was it your list that I saw on deckcheck recently Yui?

I personally don't like Moons in the MD because I prefer a more well-rounded game 1 strategy, but if your meta is vulnerable enough, I actually think you should MD 3 Moons. I feel like your goal then is to maximize the chances of turn 1 Moon (even though 4 MD Moons is probably too much), and Tops and Jets will help you avoid a useless Moon later in the game. But maybe you could go down to 2 Moons MD and keep another 1 or 2 in the SB?


The random draws late game are pretty annoying. That will become a less problem with tops and fetch?

The results I've had thus far with Tops and Jets in this deck are outstanding. Not only do the Tops and Jets allow you to consistently apply pressure into the mid and late game, they allow you to set up plays...meaning that you can ensure that Servant is played with a Blast immediately available, or you can configure your combo with Blast support, or enable a perfect mana curve, etc.

I actually played a couple quick games against Eva Green this weekend and won them both. The Tops and Jets offset the discard pretty well, and Stingscourger is a difference maker. I highly recommend Stingscourger, at least in the SB. He's a decent way to stall against Goyf or any other creature threat, but considering Tombstalker and Dreadnought are both prevalent, he is disproportionately good.

I have not played against Stax at all, so I'm interested in hearing about how you deal with that Yui.


He is so important in this deck. Being able to pitch to a Chrome Mox, free mana for a surprise Blast effect, and very importantly, being able to pay one more mana to a Daze is critical. Simian Spirit Guide is probably the M.V.P. of Imperial Painter because of his multilateral capability.

True that! And after your opponent gets hit with a few surprise SSG moves, they start second guessing their own plays. It's kind of like how the mere possibility of a Moon effect makes people search for basics.

[Michael Keller]

I've actually been working on a new list on M.W.S. (because there's obviously no one here competitive enough to play on base, let alone that actually plays), and it's pretty solid.

I'll have a new list posted in the coming days.

[Yui]

Nop its not me on deck-check.

What i have noticed in my meta that a turn 1/2 is win. Today i will test with(2/3(main) and without bloodmoons. And ofcours with tops.

I will test against eva-green again with tops. I will try it with Stingscourger i have the feeling he will save your ass 1 time and then you have to wait. i prefere searching for jaya. But i haven't seen him in action. What i noticed that i'm not affraid of the big bad meanies with this deck.
Most of the time you blow them up with blasts. The thing i'm affraid of is swarms of creature's.

My match up against Dutch stax I hope i remember it correctly.

We played a few games without sideboarding. He play 4 humility's and 4 oblivian rings main. So it sucks for painter.
When you can denial the moxen and have a moon effect on table you win. The thing i feared most where the Ring's the remove your Painter or Moon. When they remove your painter its not a big problem but when they can remove your Moon effect they will go nasty.
When they play the smokestack you have to race. hoping on a land or grindstone etc.
When they can remove you moon effects late game they will go insane. I will fetch Jaya and destroy his lands and hope i will draw the grindstone.
But there is one thing more i think i won 3 games with Magus beatdown!



After sideboarding, it was a piece of cake +2 shattering spree +1 Heretic. That was enough, play recruiter fetch a heretic and "jeej"
He brought in; pithing needle REB and COP not sure about that. He boarded out geddon and moat and something else.

If they put pithing on grindstone you fetch a heretic or draw a spree. After sideboarding it was easy. The annoying thing is that the still have the stupid rings!

I think
before sideboarden 60/40
after sideboarding 70/30

[DrewliusMaximus]

I'll have a new list posted in the coming days.

Nice. Post it soon. I'm going to try and make it up to Austin for a tourney on Friday.


I will try it with Stingscourger i have the feeling he will save your ass 1 time and then you have to wait. i prefere searching for jaya.

I will only recruit Stingscourger as a last resort, usually to prevent imminent death from a Stalker or Nought. Otherwise it is a single card that I normally don't mind drawing. It pitches to Mox (and Jaya) of course, and can sit in hand waiting to stall while I set things up with Top. Sometimes all you need is one more turn to find a Blast or combo out. Yui, it seems like your meta does not have as much Dreadnought as mine, and even if Stalker is still around, Scourger is probably not MD worthy for you. Maybe in the SB though. I actually like the list you proposed...


4 Imperial Recruiter
2 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Painter's Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Vexing Shusher
4 Magma Jet
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Blood Moon
4 Chrome Mox
4 Grindstone
3 Top
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
8 Mountain
2 Mire's

...but it's 61 cards. You could go down to 3 Jets or 2 Moons here.

[Yui]

Haven't had the chance to test with Stingscourger. Couldn't find a card to cut in my side or main. In my meta there a few player who play Dread-still and dreadstalker but allot of loam. Its difficult to get a grip on the meta here(Holland) it random.

I noticed today it was 61 cards so i took your advice and removed a moon.
Today i tested again against gobbo's and landstill.

gobbo's
of the 3 games we played i went 1 - 2, 2 -0 and 2- 0
I sideboarded +4 trini, +2 pyro +1 Phoenix and +1 Silent arbiter.
and -2 moons, -3 blasts -1 jet -1 Jaya

3 of the 5 games i went insane, turn one, painter with stone and second turn win. The other 2 games are a bit blur. The game i lost i made some stupid play's fetching for a Magus instead of usefull stuff.

Landstill; 1- 2 1 -2 1 - 2
After boarding it just went terrible some games i didn't see any moon or magus. And late game that deck has fetched into basic 2 humility 2 WOG and 4 plow etc. Maybe it was my sideboard tech.
I had no idea what to board in beside Heretic +2 Spree. I also boarden trini's in once. Just to try it. It slowed him down and gave me the time. But that decks draws insane. I hope i wont see that deck.

this is the decklist i tested;
4 Imperial Recruiter
2 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Painter's Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Vexing Shusher
4 Magma Jet
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blood Moon
4 Chrome Mox
4 Grindstone
3 Top
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
8 Mountain
2 Mire's

4 Trinisphere
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Silent Arbiter
1 Shattering Spree
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Shard Phoenix
1 Wildfire Emissary
1 Viashino Heretic

the 1 Spree is freakign random. I think cutting 1 trini and adding 1 extra spree?
Now i need to get my hand on 4 Recruiter then i have a new pet deck. Will take it to a tournament this sunday(I can borrow the recruiter from someone i know)


Can't wait to see your new list Hollywood!

[DrewliusMaximus]

Haven't had the chance to test with Stingscourger. Couldn't find a card to cut in my side or main. In my meta there a few player who play Dread-still and dreadstalker but allot of loam. Its difficult to get a grip on the meta here(Holland) it random.

Oh man, you live in the Netherlands? I spent a semester in Maastricht and it was probably the best time of my life. So, have you found that Silent Arbiter is a must-have in your SB? Since putting in Phoenix, I've dropped him. And I ask because if Loam is plentiful in your meta, Stuffy Doll seems like a better choice. Doll comes in against Gobs too, can't be removed, and has the potential to form a nice little combo move with Phoenix (or Jaya, if you get enough mana to sweep the board).

I'm also thinking that if there isn't much of a combo presence, dropping 1 Trinisphere from the board might be a good way to free up space (maybe you can even put a 3rd Moon in there).

Anyway, just some thoughts.....

[Yui]

Yup, its a nice place. What did you do there for a semister?

I was planning to drop 1 trini for a extra bloodmoon. And i also havn't used Pheonix. I find it difficult to cut things in my sideboard. I still want to add 1 stingscourger, 1 extra shattering spree and doll. But its full.
I not sure about the doll i because of the massive artifact hate.

3 Trinisphere
1 Bloodmoon
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Silent Arbiter
1 Shattering Spree
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Stingscourger
1 Wildfire Emissary
1 Viashino Heretic
This one bothers me. The 1 spree that the only thing thats not fetchable with recruiter. And a extra bloodmoon. It can be nice but maybe a little bit overkill.

or

3 Trinisphere
1 Stuffydoll
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Silent Arbiter
2 Shattering Spree
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Stingscourger
1 Wildfire Emissary
1 Viashino Heretic
With this sideboard i dunno. The only thing is the 2 relic.
But is packed with everything.

Or maybe this as the list
4 Imperial Recruiter
2 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Painter's Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Stingscourger <-----
3 Magma Jet
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blood Moon
4 Chrome Mox
4 Grindstone
3 Top
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
8 Mountain
2 Mire's

I have added a stingscourger main. Not sure about I hope i have the time to play a few games.
I have noticed that the thing i board out are the 4(now 3) magma jets. I don't draw them. On the other hand the decks who drop big bad meanie i can race.

[DrewliusMaximus]

I was supposed to be studying economics and political science when I was in Maastricht. It was the first semester of my senior year of undergrad, and I actually ended up studying golden lagers, coffee shops and European girls.


I not sure about the doll i because of the massive artifact hate.


Dude, Doll is indestructible. Artifact hate doesn't do anything to him. The fact that opponents board in artifact hate is a big reason I did drop Arbiter though.


I have noticed that the thing i board out are the 4(now 3) magma jets.

I do this too quite often. But Jet is good MD because it helps you dig for Blasts and Grindstone, and that's a nice simple plan for the 1st game.

I personally think that, given your description of your meta so far, you could use something like this:

1-2 Mires (I've gone down to 1 because of Stifle and the fact that I often want access to extra mana after using Top WITHOUT having to reshuffle)
8-9 Mountain
8 City/Tomb
4 Mox
4 SSG
4 Magus
4 Recruiter
4 Servant
2 Jaya
1 Shusher
3 Blood Moon
3 Magma Jet
6 Blast
4 Grindstone
3 Top

SB:
1 Shard Phoenix
1 Stuffy Doll
1 Wildfire Emissary (if this is any good against Stax)
1 Stingscourger
1 Heretic
3 Spree
3 Trinisphere
4 Relic

[Yui]

Hiya,

i'm back. This sunday i had a tournament and played with the following list;

2 Mires
8 Mountain
8 City/Tomb
4 Mox
4 SSG
4 Magus
4 Recruiter
4 Servant
2 Jaya
1 Shusher
3 Blood Moon
3 Magma Jet
6 Blast
4 Grindstone
3 Top

SB:
1 Shard Phoenix
1 Shusher
1 Wildfire Emissary
1 Stingscourger
1 Heretic
3 Spree
4 Trinisphere
3 Relic


It went terrible. everything went wrong i didn't draw the cards i needed. After 5 games i quitted. I went 2-3 of the 8 games.

My first round;
Dreadstalker; I have tested against this deck to many times.
game 1;
Jeej me winz the diceroll. first turn 1 bloodmoon. But he had all his basic in his opening hand so that sucked. Some countering back and forth. I needed my painter but i couldn't find a recruiter of a painter. turn 5 his first tombstalker and i didn't had anything.

out; Jet and i think Jaya
in; Relic and shatter

Game 2;
First turn Magus, and second turn painter. With allot of counter backup and i won with Magus beatdown.

Games 3
We played to many turn and i had 20 cards left. And in those 20 cards where my recruiters, painter and spree. Won with nought.

0-1

round 2
Against Ant. This game was fun.
Game 1;
I won the diceroll. Turn one Magus. turn 2 painter. And won with painter and magus beatdown. He couldn't do anything.

Out; -3 Jet, -1 Jaya
In; +4 trini

Game 2;
He goes fetch go! I play trini. He does nothng and passes the turn. Magus of the moon and a few turns i painter + grindstone.

1 -1

Round 3;
Death and taxes. Damn this sucks massive donkeyballs.

game 1;
I got raped by Oblivian Rings, stp and Mangara. I draw nothing interesting he wins with beatdown.

the same for game 2. I hate this matchup.

1-2

round 4
Belcher(bayou and taiga)

Again the diceroll is mine. Turn one bloodmoon. Second and third turn grindstone and he does nothing.

outl; -2 Jaya, -3 jet.
in; Trini + relic i think? not sure

game 2
he goes land go. I go trini. After a few turn i blows my trini away tries to combo with a painter online plays his belcher. Counter and win.

2-2

round 5

Ichi and i was surrounded by germans! both playing Ichorid.

game 1;
I go fail fail and faiL!!!

Out; -3 reb
in; 3 relic
Game 2;
I go insane turn painter turn 2 grindstone + win

game 3;
He goes insane i have 1 magus, 1 recruiter and 1 jaya online. He has 14 tokens and 2/3 Ichorid
I have enough mana to use Jaya's 2nd abillity(3 damage to everything) instead i do something stupid. I'm not sure if i had to use it. Otherwise my magus would die and he would go insane with online Undiscoverd paradise and a Cephalid Coliseum. Not sure if i made the rightplay. But i think it didn't matter.

Then i dropped. The deck didn't work as it did with the testing.
but to bad next time!!! i hope.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Sorry to hear about the shitty result yesterday Yui. Sometimes the cards just screw you, and that's that. But here are some things I was thinking...

* Against Dreadstalker

out; Jet and i think Jaya
in; Relic and shatter

I haven't played this one before, but I'm sure you should get a Stingscourger in there. I also wonder if Trinisphere is better than Relic in this match? Definitely seems like you had crap luck here too.

* Against Death and Taxes
The matchup against mono-white does indeed suck donkeyballs. Not only does Magus/Moon do nothing to them, but they can board in plenty of red hate. How did you sideboard? I've found that Trinisphere + Emissary + Stuffy Doll works ok.

* Against Ichorid

Out; -3 reb
in; 3 relic

Against most Ichorid builds I've seen, you want to keep your Blasts in, and bring in Trinispheres and Phoenix in addition to the Relics. I take out Jets, a Jaya or 2, Shusher, and possibly a Top. With your build it would probably be different. Stingsourger stays in the MD for me, but might even be worth boarding in for you. He's the fastest way to remove Bridges from the graveyard, aside from Relic of course.


I didn't get to the Friday tournament this weekend, but I should be going this coming one. I did get to play a few MD vs. MD games with my friend and his UGW Thresh, and I was pleased with the deck even without extra Moons in the MD. Hopefully you and I will both have some more successful results soon Yui.

Oh, and Hollywood, you should post that list you've been using on MWS.

[Yui]

Yup stingscourger is good choice also i trinisphere. With testing you don't need trini. Its a nice helper. But i made allot of boarding mistakes.
The 3rd game he used his Charm to change mountains in Islands. With a Magus of the moon. I'm still not sure if its possible but the judge said it was ok.


Against death and taxes i boarded trinisphere in. But i didn't help. Also boarded emissary in. And i don't had a stuffydolls in my side.

The ichorid match up i screwed up i think. Didn't know what to board.

That to bad you couldn't get to the tournament last friday. I like the ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh matchup in general.

Indeed show us your list hollywood.

[DrewliusMaximus]

I played in a 17-person tournament in Austin on Friday with this list:


4 Trinisphere
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Blood Moon
1 Stuffy Doll
1 Shard Phoenix
1 Wildfire Emissary
1 Viashino Heretic

MD:
9 Mountain
1 Bloodstained Mire
8 City/Tomb
4 Mox
4 SSG
4 Magus
4 Recruiter
4 Servant
3 Jaya
1 Shusher
1 Stingscourger
6 Blast
4 Grindstone
3 Top
4 Magma Jet

The deck worked well and I got 1st. Quick Report…

Match 1 – Enchantress (2-0)
Game 1: After going back and forth a little, I ended up assembling the combo but then had to play through Confinement for a few turns before milling.
SB: I think I only did -1 Shusher, -1 Scourger, +2 Moon
Game 2: He played a Needle naming Grindstone instead of Jaya, and then I got Jaya and Servant out and was able to lock him out of land.

Match 2 – Deadguy (2-0)
Game 1: He 1st-turn discarded me with either Thoughtsieze or Duress, but I can’t remember what he took. I decided to try and start putting pressure on as early as possible, so I hardcasted a SSG instead of playing Grindstone and betting on a quick topdeck. The Guide ends up dealing 8-12 damage, because I was able to get rid of his guys with Jets and Jaya.
SB: -1 Shusher, +1 Emissary
Game 2: I don’t remember this game very well, but I think I ended up with the combo win.

Match 3 – Survival (w/ Madness) (2-0)
Game 1: I tried to play the combo turn 2, got Wastelanded, but then succeeded turn 3.
SB: -1 Shusher, -1 Scourger, +2 Relic
Game 2: I played an early Servant with Top and Blast support and ended up with the combo again.

Match 4 – Faerie Stompy (2-1)
We are the only two undefeated so we decide to draw because top 4 is not played out but determined by record. But we do play to determine 1st/2nd.
Game 1: He doesn’t get an early Chalice, and Blasts/Jaya control things from there.
SB: -1 Top, +1 Heretic
Game 2: I can’t remember much, but he won this one.
Game 3: No early Chalice, and I am able to remove everything but a Weatherseed Faerie. I attack for a couple of turns with Servant until I have a bunch of 2/2’s and swing with everyone twice.

I like the consistent pressure that this MD can apply in game 1. I didn’t use the SB that much in this tournament, so no comments there.

[Malchar]

Yesterday I played this build at a small local tournament with less than 20 people. I took second place rather easily. About half of the decks/players aren't very good yet. Ironically, I had the most trouble against them, particularly burn and sligh. Here is the list I used, mostly to try to test some things and see which direction I want the deck to take:

4 imperial recruiter
4 painter's servant
4 magus of the moon
4 simian spirit guide

1 jaya
1 vexing shusher
1 heap doll
1 goblin tinkerer

4 grindstone
3 sword of light and shadow
3 magma jet
3 sensei's divining top

4 red elemental blast
1 pyroblast

4 chrome mox
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
10 mountain

No sideboard

The main thing that I'm deciding right now is if I should do this:
-3 sword of light and shadow
+3 pyroblast

The toolbox creatures will be shuffled around a bit when I actually make a sideboard. Vexing Shusher can definately go to the SB, but I really do like Heap Doll maindeck. It actually works great with Sword of Light and Shadow so I can keep bringing him back. One of the other choices is to add more Jaya maindeck.

My big question is what should I do to my sideboard to prepare of a burn/sligh-heavy meta? I'm considering Chalice of the Void, even Dragon's Claw. Also, since they are able to side in massive artifact removal, I thought about using Welding Jar SB.

[DrewliusMaximus]

My big question is what should I do to my sideboard to prepare of a burn/sligh-heavy meta? I'm considering Chalice of the Void, even Dragon's Claw. Also, since they are able to side in massive artifact removal, I thought about using Welding Jar SB.

You should consider Trinisphere and Stuffy Doll.

[GGoober]

3sphere is a must in the MD/SB for Imperial Painter. It just hoses control, and stops burn in their tracks, giving you free turns to win easily.

I think 3 Jaya maybe too many in the MD. You have Imperial Recruiter anyway, is it hard to cast her at RR without Moon effects consistently? It seems that turn3/4 Jaya isn't too great unless you can protect her.

I like the list anyway. It has a plan outside of Painter/Stone, and has multiple ways to lock the opponents out. Have you tested against Dreadstill? How are the Matchups against those decks?

Anyway, out of context, but Drew, are you the Drew at Asgardgames? This is Chris (asian dude), from Asgard.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Yep, it's me Chris. Too bad we didn't get to play on Saturday, but there's always next weekend.

I'm sure I'm in the minority on this, but I like 3 Jayas in this deck. Most other builds I've seen run 2, but she is so broken here, that I'd rather see too much of her than not enough (especially since there is no Legend drawback with her because she can be pitched to herself). I haven't had many problems casting RR with Moon effects and SSG. More frequently, I have an extra floating colorless mana after casting her that burns me if I can't sink it into a Top, or use it to cast a Grindstone. But I don't mind taking a burn sometimes to cast an early Jaya. In my last tournament, I took a burn to cast a turn 1 Jaya and then on turn 2, played Servant and started destroying the opponent's lands...and it was over.

I have tested against UR Dreadstill a little and it seems favorable. I put Stingscourger in the MD specifically for Dreadnought and Tombstalker. I need to test more though.

After consulting with our friends at Asgard on Saturday, I'm making some changes to the SB, but thus far, I'm still happy with my MD. We'll see though.

[Esper3k]

What's nice about the deck, from my observations, is that it also just seems flexible enough to even modify the MD against what you're expecting to face.

Going up against a heavy Blue meta? Go with the full 8 blasts or more Jayas. Lots of decks with few non-basics? Get more of your Moon effects in there.

[chokin]

What's nice about the deck, from my observations, is that it also just seems flexible enough to even modify the MD against what you're expecting to face.

Going up against a heavy Blue meta? Go with the full 8 blasts or more Jayas. Lots of decks with few non-basics? Get more of your Moon effects in there.

I would play more Moon if there were decks with few basics, but that's just me :P

3Sphere rules in this deck when you have Painter+Jaya down because you just blast their lands until they get sick of playing. I've found that most of the games I've won have been due to landlocking my opponent or resolving the combo, so any means to make their disruption or outs to these less effective rule imo.

I saw some people tossing in SDT. How'd that go, and where are they cutting cards?

[GGoober]

I must say that seeing Drew play this deck, I like the deck's strategy a whole bunch. Very little cards are dead. The Blasts are all amazing against 60% of Legacy decks out there due to the prevalence of aggro-control decks. The deck won't do too well against CB but you'll have to disrupt early to make sure you don't get destroyed by CB. Even with CB online, this deck plays a 3cc heavy curve, and Jaya dodges CB, and blasting CB off and winning a couple of turns later is good stuff.

The deck has the power to go for Moon disruption, and basically has a much better win condition than Dragon Stompy. I can only imagine the deck having a bad matchup against discard, which is accounted for with the use of Jets/Top for better consistency. But if they hit Jets/Top and force you into Top deck mode, it's not too pleasant.

If I get my hands on a playset of Recruiters, I would definitely play this :D

It gets some hate for Grindstone, and if you don't land a Moon/3Sphere in time, you can get controll-ed out since all they have to look out for (after fetching basics) is to stop either Grindstone or Servant.

[DrewliusMaximus]

3Sphere rules in this deck when you have Painter+Jaya down because you just blast their lands until they get sick of playing. I've found that most of the games I've won have been due to landlocking my opponent or resolving the combo, so any means to make their disruption or outs to these less effective rule imo.

Generally, the problem I have with Trinisphere in the MD is that you really do affect yourself significantly. Being able to play a Servant and a Blast on the same turn is crucial many times, as is being able to play Grindstone and activate on the same turn. But Trinisphere is another one of those cards that, like Esper3k said (Jeff? Brian? is that you?), allow you to modify the MD for your metagame. Expect mostly combo? MD Trinisphere.


I saw some people tossing in SDT. How'd that go, and where are they cutting cards?

Excellent. Before Top, I think this deck was a Dragon Stompy-style hail marry proposition. You won or lost on the first turn and by topdecking. With Tops (and Magma Jets), this deck can set up plays and dig, reliably applying pressure into the mid and late game. My MD is a few posts back.


The deck won't do too well against CB but you'll have to disrupt early to make sure you don't get destroyed by CB. Even with CB online, this deck plays a 3cc heavy curve, and Jaya dodges CB, and blasting CB off and winning a couple of turns later is good stuff.

It is true that CB resolving is not good, but don't forget Vexing Shusher. He's in there too.


I can only imagine the deck having a bad matchup against discard, which is accounted for with the use of Jets/Top for better consistency. But if they hit Jets/Top and force you into Top deck mode, it's not too pleasant.

I definitely need to test more, but the discard match isn't all that bad with Tops and Jets as far as I can tell. The worst matchups for Imperial Painter from my experience are Death and Taxes, random White Weenie with pro red stuff, and Elf Combo. I would also expect that Quinn is not a good matchup because a resolved Humility is very bad.

[Esper3k]

This is Jeff, Drew.

How does the deck do against Landstill? It's heavy in blue, but as you said in your post, Humility seems to be bad news...

Have you tested against the other Elf combo (Elfball, not Survival)? I saw it recently got some spotlight in one of the SCG articles, which I expect would increase the number of that deck you see, especially since it's a port from a popular Extended deck.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Landstill isn't bad because Magus and Moons hurt them, and they are generally vulnerable to the blue hate. And I'm pretty sure that Magus' ability actually works under Humility too. Still, a resolved Humility means I have to beat them 1/1's and Magma Jets.

I played Elfball once in a tournament (Elfball is the one with Grapeshot/Brainfreeze right?), and I lost. But that was with an older build (w/out Tops) and I didn't have Pyrokinesis in the SB then. From what I remember though, it also seemed noticeably slower than your Elf Combo.

[Esper3k]

Yep, Elfball is the one that uses the Heritage Druid, Nettle Sentinel, Glimpse of Nature to generate a bunch of mana/draw cards.

It's actually supposed to be really quick, with the Grapeshot versions even having a T2 kill.

Even easier to hate out than Elf Survival though (Chalice for 1 really hurts that deck since most of the elves in the deck are 1 drops).

Re: Landstill - you might want to check on the Magus/Humility interaction, I was under the impression that Humility turns all creatures into generic 1/1's with no abilities, including static ones like Magus' ability.

[Glorfindel]

The Magus' ability to turn every nonbasic land into a Mountain is applied in layer 4. Humility applies in layer 5, so Magus' ability works.

[Esper3k]

The Magus' ability to turn every nonbasic land into a Mountain is applied in layer 4. Humility applies in layer 5, so Magus' ability works.

That's really interesting - and makes the matchup a lot better.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Yeah, I read about the Humility interaction in a rules thread but I can't always remember how the layers work. Magus of the Moon is the only Magus ability that is unaffected by Humility...pretty cool.

As far as Elfball goes, I only got to play four games against it. I could see how it has a fast potential goldfish, but Elf Combo seems much more consistent, probably just because it can abuse Survival. In the games I played against Elfball, the combo usually didn't happen until after turn 5 or 6.

[Malchar]

What do you all think about Sword of Light and Shadow? I'm currently using three in my sideboard to bring in against decks that don't lose to moon. It seems really strong and I originally used it maindeck. Unfortunately, I want to bring the red blasts up to six and with a toolbox of three creatures there wasn't enough room for them anymore. Sideboard seems like a good place for the sword. Suspecting hate game two, the swords can come in and you can almost play a reasonable aggro strategy.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Malchar, if you are mainly concerned about Stax, Shattering Spree is probably a better SB card than SoLS. But SoLS is good against a wider variety of decks. I used to have them in my SB, but I can't find room for them right now.

One reason I took them out though is that many decks SB artifact hate against you, and I don't like bringing in more targets for them. This is the same reason I am not using Jitte in the SB either. Against Grips this is less of an issue because they will wait and target Servant/Grindstone, but against Shattering Spree it is bad.

[Esper3k]

Hmm, while I'm a fan of the good equipments available these days, I'm not sure I'm sold on using them in this deck, especially at the cost of Blasts.

To me, the deck fundamentally needs to try and abuse Painter as much as possible, thus having as many Blasts/Grindstone/methods to get them as you can get.

Swords seem unwieldy for the deck as well as doesn't seem to help your bad matchups.

Also, any particular reason why you'd want to use Light & Shadow over Fire & Ice? With Painter around, I'd assume you'd be painting everything Blue, which has better synergy with SoFI.

[DrewliusMaximus]

I think I agree that equipment are generally unwieldy in the deck. Originally, I thought SoFI would be great with Painter, but one thing it is easy to forget....SoFI becomes blue and falls off whatever it is equipping immediately.

Esper3K, are you drafting at Montag's tonight?

[Esper3k]

I think I agree that equipment are generally unwieldy in the deck. Originally, I thought SoFI would be great with Painter, but one thing it is easy to forget....SoFI becomes blue and falls off whatever it is equipping immediately.

Esper3K, are you drafting at Montag's tonight?

Ah yeah that's true - good catch on that one.

Yep, we're planning on showing up tonight.

[Mr.C]

Just a question, how bad does this deck get crippled if u only have one recruiter?

[Phoenix Ignition]

It's probably not worth playing. Honestly I think recruiter is the one card that makes this deck broken.

[Esper3k]

For this deck, you really have to get the Painter out. Without it, you're in huge trouble.

The Recruiters just pretty much double your odds of getting a Painter out and also double for some of the more toolbox creatures of the deck. I wouldn't play the deck without all the recruiters.

[Mr.C]

Lol, i Wrote one, I meant three. same thing applies, I guess?

[DrewliusMaximus]

I brought Imperial Painter to Chicago and here's the story:

I played the following list on Friday for the Trials:
9 Mountain
1 Mire
8 Tomb/City
4 Mox
4 SSG
4 Magus
4 Recruiter
4 Servant
3 Jaya
1 Shusher
1 Stingscourger
4 Pryoblast
3 REB
4 Grindstone
3 Magma Jet
3 Top
SB
4 Trinisphere
4 Relic
3 Blood Moon
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Heretic

I won my Trial, beating UBW Landstill, BG Natural Order/Progenitus, UW Control, ANT and then another ANT in the final game.

5-0 = 3 byes to start GP

So far so good. I was damn happy to be avoiding all the random stuff that might come up in the first 3 rounds, but in testing I found that I wanted some sort of solution to Jitte, so I added a Hearth Kami to the SB in place of one of the Blood Moons.

On Saturday, I walked around with my friend who won his Trial for the first 3 rounds and scoped out the field. I saw a lot of Thresh, Landstill, Dredge, Goblins, ANT, Team America, and some Merfolk making it to the winning tables. So, I felt good about my 4th round chances.

Anyway, my 4th round match was against Boros-Style RW Aggro. Not cool. Now I have never tested against this deck before, so I boarded like an idiot and ended up losing in 2. But this matchup sucks no matter what. Also, I made a horrible mistake game 1, so my opponent just all-around deserved to win this one.

3-1

I beat Landstill in the 5th round in a typical manner with Magus, Jaya and Blasts for the most part.

4-1

In the 6th round, I played Dredge and of course lost the first game even though I Blasted his first 2 attempted discard spells. His third one, a Breakthrough resolved, and it was over. As it turns out, this match becomes incredibly favorable post-board. I brought in 4 Trinispheres, 4 Relic, and 4 Pyrokinesis, and won the next two games.

5-1

I got paired with yet another ANT in the 7th, and I like this matchup. I can't remember who won the die roll, but I won the first game, which usually all but guarantees the match. In the second game, I kept a hand with a 2nd turn Trinisphere and a Blast, but he went off on his second turn without a Blue spell. So, I'm on the play in the third game, but I have to mull to 5, and still all I can get is a single Mountain with a Blast, Servant, Grindstone, and something else. I probably should have mulled again, but I didn't and I lost second turn.

5-2

Now I am pretty sure I have to win out to make the second day, so all I can do is hope that I finally get to play one of the prevalent decks that I have such good matchups against like Thresh, TA or something.

Instead, I am playing a BGW Funkbrew deck with Vials and Jitte in the 8th round. My opponent was a really nice German guy who played well, and beat me the first game after a pretty good battle. But Jitte ended up being too much. I won the second game with Magus locking him out of colors and Jaya destroying permanents every turn until the beatdown was completed. In the third game, I made a greedy first turn play by casting Jaya instead of Magus. So he STP's Jaya and then Wastelands my Tomb. I don't have mana for the rest of that short game. It's too bad I had to have another bad matchup, but I liked this guy's deck.

5-3

So I am now pretty sure that I can't make the second day, but I decide not to drop just in case. I play a UW Landstill with Moat in the 9th round, and win in 2 games.

6-3

I ended up placing 184th out of 1200+ people. Not what I had hoped for, but not too bad.

I decided after the GP that I want a 4th Magma Jet in the MD and that Hearth Kami was a waste of SB space (it was a stupid idea, I know). So, I played the build listed above in two small 8-man single-elimination tournaments on Sunday with the following changes:

MD: -1 Stingscourger, +1 Magma Jet,
SB: -1 Blood Moon (or Hearth Kami, as it was in the GP), +1 Stingscourger

In the first pick up tournament, I won the first game, and then lost a grudge match to UBW Landstill. RaiderBob had to get his revenge against me for beating him in the first game of the Trial on Friday.

I won the second tournament, beating UGW ConterTop Thresh, Mono-Blue Belcher/Mana Severance, and Enchantress.

I was very happy with the deck and I would play it again if I had the chance. With a win against ANT in the 7th round, or at least one match against Thresh, Team America or Merfolk I would have made the second day I think. I mean, out of 11 games on Friday and Saturday, I played only one deck with Goyfs, and that deck happened to be BGW with Vials and Jittes. Oh well.

I had a hell of a time and the turnout for Legacy was outrageous. I hope this was more than a temporary boost for the format.

I have to thank my peeps at Asgard Games in Houston for the Legacy play over the last several weeks. Sorry I didn't win the whole thing, or I would take us all out to Fogo de Chao.

[Esper3k]

Lol, i Wrote one, I meant three. same thing applies, I guess?

Well, if you have 3, you could probably play it, but I'd make the effort to get the 4th in there too.

[Esper3k]

184 out of like 1250 people still is a good showing. Imperial Painter also got some love in one of the feature matches as well.

There's always next year!

[Michael Keller]

Just a question, how bad does this deck get crippled if u only have one recruiter?

It can be bad. Imperial Recruiter adds a serious level of consistency to the deck which didn't have a whole lot to begin with.

I paced myself in getting a set, and it took a little time. Imperial Painter is a relatively expensive deck to play, and that's taking into consideration only those four cards to begin with.

EDIT: Not bad, Drewlius. I promised a few weeks ago to have a new list up and running. I haven't had much time on the internet as much as I like, so it's been hard. I'd like to know more in depth about what you played against and how your matches turned out. You can post here or PM, either way the information would be useful.

I'm kind of quietly regaining the cards for a new build.

[DrewliusMaximus]

I 'll try to post the details I can remember later tonight or tomorrow.

I know it might not match the tempo of the deck sometimes, but I was thinking about Vials in here. It would allow you to run 1 Trinket Mage without splashing blue, and of course enable uncounterable Vial tricks like EOT Servant + Blast. Maybe something like:

-2 Grindstone, -1 Blast, -1 Jaya, +3 Vial, +1 Trinket Mage

This would slow the deck down for sure, but you could do some pretty funny stuff with it.

[Esper3k]

The feature match with Imperial Painter (Round 12, Brian Kowal vs. Reuben Bresler) was interesting.

Bresler's deck used both Gamble and Goblin Welder, which I thought were neat. Gamble up one of your combo pieces, then if it gets pitched to the graveyard, you can use Welder to bring it back with any extra painter/grindstone/tops/moxes you don't need.

Not sure how good it actually is, but I thought it was neat in concept. Gamble also lets you potentially turn your extra lands (like extra Cities sitting in your hand) into one of your combo pieces.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Yeah, Bresler apparently also ran a full 8 Blasts plus 4 Active Volcanoes. To get to the second day he must have played all the matches against blue-ish decks that I wish I could have played. I do like the concept of Welder + Gamble, but the two problems I see are: you are now more focused on the combo (which may not be a bad thing), and Welder is damn fragile. One thing I like about many Imperial Painter builds is that the combo is really just a bonus to the overall strategy which is to control the board. The Welder plan seems vulnerable to things that remove Painter from the game (STP, Oblivion Ring) and means that Relic now potentially hurts you too. But, I must say that having the ability to tutor up the Grindstone is sexy. It also seems like you would want a few more artifacts to feed the Welder. If I were playing with Welder and Gamble I think I would try MD Trinispheres. You could actually Weld the 3Spheres out when you're ready to play a bunch of spells. That would be cool.

The biggest problem this deck has though in my opinion is remaining effective without Painter. Unless you are able to play almost every match against a blue deck, I don't see how you can win with 8 Blasts and 4 Active Volcanoes. But there is always a decent chance that you will play against mostly decks with blue, and maybe the Gambles give enough assurance most of the time that you'll have the Painter.

I wish I had some notes on some of my games or remembered more details. Here are a few things I do recall:

1. It was very nice on several occasions to have a recruitable anti-artifact card. I debated with some friends about whether to take out Heretic and something else to add 2 Shattering Sprees in the SB. But in the 8th round match vs. the Funkbrew with Vials and Jittes, I won the second game partially because I was able to Recruit Heretic. After putting him in my hand, my opponent had to Vial in his Tidehollow Sculler immediately to take the Heretic, but that left Jaya in my hand. So I played her (no Painter on the board), killed Sculler a turn later and played the Heretic, and was able get rid of Vial the turn after that.
In the first match I played on Sunday against mono-blue Trinket Painter, I was able to recruit Heretic which won the game for me single-handedly. In the beginning of this game, my opponent played a Needle on Grindstone, which I already had on the board. He then beat me to the Painter, naming red, and played his own Grindstone. I was able to recruit Heretic, blast-counter his blue blasts, play the Heretic, destroy his Grindstone, and then destroy the Needle and Grindstone him using his own Painter.

2. I love Magma Jets and Tops in this deck. In my last match of the GP, I played a UW Landstill deck with Moat and Elspeths. The first game was a long battle, where I played Magus early, and started the beatdown. But he was able to get a Plains and STP Magus. After that I played several threats which were either countered or killed with STP or Wrath, and my only remaining permanents after a while were Grindstone and Top. I was able to play another Magus to shut down his manlands, but he immediately tutored up a Moat and played it. This sucked because he was at like 3 or 4 life. Soon after he played Elspeth. I used Top and Grinded myself twice to dig for something while a flying Elspeth token took me down to 3 life. At that point I found a Jet (the only one I left in after sideboarding), and killed his token, scrying away two useless cards. I used top after that, found a Painter and a Blast, and put them on top. He created another Elspeth token on his turn, and then I tapped Top after my drawstep to get both Painter and Blast, played Painter, Blasted a counter, and comboed for the win.
Magma Jet gave me a win in my second match of the Friday Trial, when I Jetted my opponent early in the game after he played a Wall of Blossoms on his turn (I had played Painter two turns earlier), and found a Blast. I drew Blast on my turn and held it, which was crucial because he played Natural Order the following turn, which I of course countered. I went on the win that match in 2.

3. I think 7 Blasts is a good number, as I didn't have too many occasions where I had useless Blasts without a Painter out, but I did seem to get Blasts many times when I needed them.

4. I playtested with my friend against Burn and barely won any games. This matchup seems near unwinnable, and that was kind of how it felt against the RW Aggro deck I played against in the 4th round. Game 1, they have all the instant speed removal they need to kill your Painter in response to any played Blasts or Grindstones. And If you try to bring in some equipment like SoLS or Jitte to help, they will always have Shattering Spree for you games 2 and 3. Against Burn, I just board in Trinispheres and hope to draw the nuts. Against the RW Aggro, I was an idiot and did not board in Pyrokinesis or Relics. I think Relics might have been useful to shut down Grim Lavamancer. I would love to hear any ideas about boarding for these matchups though.

[DrewliusMaximus]

We had our second Legacy tournament in Houston at Asgard Games this Saturday (and they said it was impossible). It was only 8 people but hey, we have to start somewhere.

I tried something a little different with Imperial Painter:

10 Mountain
1 Mire
8 City/Tomb
3 Mox
4 SSG
4 Magus
4 Recruiter
4 Servant
2 Jaya
1 Shusher
6 Blast
4 Grindstone
3 Top
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Magma Jet
SB
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Sphere of Resistance
2 Relic
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Shattering Spree
1 Stingscourger

Next time I will take notes so I can provide actual descriptions. But here's a summary.

Match 1: Eva Green - I can't remember exactly how game 1 went, but I won somehow. In game 2 Magus locked down his land and I beat for the win. For the second game I was able to board out most or all of the Blasts and bring in the Pyrokinesis which enabled me to name Black with Servant (protecting all my creatures) and still remove his guys effectively. Joey, if you read this, maybe you can help me remember what happened.

1-0 (2-0)

Match 2: Mono-Black Discard w/ Nyxathid - Game 1 was a quick combo. I kept a hand that would have been hurt by a turn 1 Thoughtsieze, but he didn't have it. I was on the play and had Mountain, City, Servant, 2 Blasts, Grindstone and something else. I played Mountain turn 1 and hoped not to get discarded, and then played City + Servant turn 2, and that was game. Game 2 I boarded in the other 2 Relics thinking there might be Tombstalker, but it turns out he was using Bob and Nyxathid. After several turns he ended up getting out 2 Bobs, and 1 Rack (I should have boarded in Sprees). I ended up getting out Top, Grindstone, and finally a Servant, but he Wasted my Tomb and I had only 2 Mountains. In the final turns, he got out a Hyppie and a second Rack. I was using Top but not finding land. I did find a Relic and played it. He attacked me down to 2 on his final turn, and Hyppie discard me down to 2. He Extirpated my Blast in the graveyard (only to find out that the top 3 cards of my library were not lands), and I was able to pop Relic EOT and bring my hand back up to 3. I did not draw a land off Relic but the extra card saved me from the Racks I ended up topdecking a Mountain on my turn and Grindstoning for the win.

2-0 (4-0)

Match 3: Dragon Stompy - Game 1 he mulliganed to 5 I think on the play, I played first turn Top, and controlled the game from there. After a bad draw first game, I figured he would have something explosive in the second one. Game 2, he played 1st turn Magus (not Chalice or Trinisphere which would have been bad for me). I played another Top on my first turn, and then he proceeded to beat down for a couple of turns while I Topped and and played a Grindstone. I finally got my own Magus down but decided not to block his attacking Magus, after he played Chalice and Trinisphere because I figured he wanted the Moon effects gone so he could access more mana. I played a Shusher, and was able to get Jaya down and then Servant. I then started blasting his lands and his own Trinisphere locked him out of the game.

3-0 (6-0)

Top 4 Match: ANT - I can't remember exactly how these games went either (I know Brian took notes - if you read this Brian, help me out). Game 1 I won the die roll but couldn't keep him from going off in 2 or 3 turns. Game 2, boarded in my experimental Thorns/Sphere, and found out that there is no replacement for Trinisphere (you were right Jeff). I did not get Thorn or Sphere 1st turn, but I did get one later that, had it been a Trinisphere, would have at least kept him from going off that turn. Instead, he Shattering Spreed the Thorn for 2 and was able to go off (and this was after he had already tried to go off and fizzled).

3-1 (6-2)

Comments:
1. I will definitely put Trinisphere back in the SB.
2. I think I might keep this MD, it handles a good variety of problems game 1 and allows the deck dig. With the amount of 1-cc spells and the increase in artifacts, I replaced a Mox with a Mountain, and I'm thinking that with Tops, Jets, and Relics it may help consistency (at a slight cost of explosiveness).
3. I was sometimes unhappy with Heretic because a)summoning sickness makes it unuseable occasionally (vs. Jitte mostly), and b)I have too often recruited something besides a Servant and then topdecked a Blast or Grindstone. So I'm thinking that the recruit-a-Painter strategy should not be diluted, and the anti-artifact stuff should be as fast and efficient as possible. Thus, I put 3 Shattering Spree in the board.
4. If I keep this MD, I would want to add the 7th and/or 8th Blasts to the SB.
5. I have a feeling I'll want Blood Moons back in the SB at some point, but lately they have felt underwhelming (this is not based just on the weird meta at this tournament...I also thought that in a tournament in Austin where the Probasco Next Level Blue deck played through Moon without any problem).

Maybe the SB will look like:
4 Trinisphere
2 Relic
4 Pyrokinesis
3 Spree
2 Blasts

or

4 Trinisphere
2 Relic
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Spree
2 Moon
1 Blast

Also, hooray Asgard Games and Legacy in Houston!

[B0W53R]

Many pages back someone suggested trying welder and I remember a format discussion thread about the topic of welder in legacy with the consensus being he is too slow or not broken enough. While this may be true, I gotta say he is really good here. List time:

4 Painters Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Ensnaring Bridge

4 Goblin Welder
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Vexing Shusher

3 Gamble
4 Pyroblast

3 Chrome Mox
4 Great Furnace
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Mountain
4 Antient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
SB
3 Blood Moon
3 Shattering Spree
2 Pyrokenesis
1 Silent Arbiter
2 Tormods Crypt
4 Thorn of Amethyst

Welder: Many people get scared when you open with a turn 1 welder as they should be. If they have it, usually a swords. One less for Painter or the dreaded float a white and swords Magus. If he sticks watch out. Countering artifacts even through chalice or counterbalance is slightly more managable. Of course Recretuiter can grab him. Activating Grindstone and then welding in painter, keeping bridge or arbiter online, dead chrome mox (with or without imprint), activating top and welding it, gamble as 1 cost tutor (in this scenario it can be better if you have to discard your target)...Artifact lands are still artifacts with moon out too...sweet

Bridge: Shuts the goyf and tombstalkers down cold. I've even used it to hold back hordes of goblins, elves, merfolk, and slivers. Every card is playable off top decking, even pyroblast with no painter! Gamble, Chrome mox and a low curve make it easy to poop your hand rather quickly too. Top can act as having an extra card in hand when needed.

Gamble: Ever had trouble finding that damn grindstone or even painter? Synergy with bridge and obviously welder make it very playable but you can use it and take chances without those too. Keep some crap to better your odds and go for it. Being so cheap, if it works you might win right there. I have targeted almost every card with Gamble and it suprisingly doesn't backfire often.

Overall more susceptible to wasteland and stifle on the manabase and a little slower due to loosing Simian Spirit Guide. Gain: Redundancy, inevitability. Try it out.

[DrewliusMaximus]

I wanted to try a list similar to that one B0W53R, but with MD Trinispheres instead of Bridges.

The Welder/Gamble approach pushes the deck more towards guaranteeing the combo (at a slightly slower speed), which could be a really good thing, but also takes away the control game. Which decks have you tested this against B0W53R?

Some friends and I have tested with Welder and/or Gamble in a supporting role, but I have not tried a build where they are so central. Without having actually tried it, I guess I would worry about:

1. The lack of SSG and low Blast count - hating Blue in the MD, especially with surprise mana after tapping out, and transforming that color-specific hate into counterspells and instant-speed vindicates has worked well for me many times.
2. The lack of SSG and some Burn with Magus - a first turn Magus followed by beatdown is another plan that works well against many decks, even if the beatdown isn't all that fast.
3. You can't use Relic of Progenitus anymore - I really like this card, and I kind of like being one of the few decks that is not dependent at all on the graveyard. Of course you could use Relic with Welders and Gamble, but it would be a conditional thing.
4. The increased vulnerability of the manabase, like you mentioned.

That said, your list looks cool and will give it a shot at some point, but I want to try it with Trinispheres. It may not actually happen, but I love the idea of welding 3Sphere in and out at your convenience. I also like the idea of having Welder as must-target for your opponent's first removal spells, and being able to "protect" your Painter from removal if Welder is on the board alongside him.

[Gui]

Hey there

I know i don't play painter much, but i was trying it out some days and came up to a Rw list... dunno if there's already one, but it fells so handy to have tutors for both combo pieces... Anyway, here's the list:

// Lands
2 [MR] Great Furnace
4 [TSP] Mountain (4)
3 [MR] Plains (4)
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [RAV] Sacred Foundry
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [B] Plateau

// Creatures
2 [UL] Goblin Welder
3 [FNM] Mother of Runes
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [P3] Imperial Recruiter

// Spells
3 [7E] Ensnaring Bridge
4 [IA] Pyroblast
4 [R] Red Elemental Blast
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [TE] Grindstone
4 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares

I know it's a raw list, but it's just to explain an idea i've got here (dunno if it's another one idea before), and to add those ideas to discussion...

[DrewliusMaximus]

Gui_Brasil, there is at least one RW list on deckcheck (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=17547).

I also talked to a friend who was messing around with a RW build that incorporated Isochron Scepter + Chant, but I don't know if he ever tested it much.

I played again this weekend with this list:

10 Mountain
1 Mire
8 City/Tomb
3 Mox
4 SSG
4 Magus
4 Recruiter
4 Servant
2 Jaya
1 Shusher
4 Pyroblast
3 REB
4 Grindstone
4 Magma Jet
4 Top
SB
1 Blood Moon
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Shattering Spree
4 Relic
4 Trinisphere

The tournament was 10 people and I did really bad.

Match 1: UGW Thresh - I played double Servants in the first 2 turns so I could Blast-protect my Grindstone and allow one Servant to be STP'd, but when I played the Grindstone I lost the counter war. Then I got beat down by a Goose and a Goyf. Game 2 I boarded in 4 Relics and a Moon, and started the game with a Top. The only useful things I saw after topping for about 5 turns was a Servant and a Blast, otherwise everything was land, mox, or SSG. This time I was beat down by 2 Goyfs (Congrats to Becky on her first Legacy tournament! But you had to beat ME right off the bat?)

0-1 (0-2)

Match 2: White Weenie - I got Tops out first turn in both games and set up a combo within 5 turns in each game. In the second game, it was just in time because he was beating me with a Soltari Priest and had me down to about 3 more turns.

1-1 (2-2)

Match 3: RG Goblins - I can't remember is this went 2 or 3 games, but he ended up killing my Servants anytime I had the combo, and won the match. The last game was a nice long one, and we battled back and forth as used Top to keep blockers on the board. But again I came across a long string of lands and saw no useful cards with Top for about 3 turns. Meanwhile, he had found a Ringleader, which actually didn't get that many Gobs for him, but was still enough to do me in (Eugene and I essentially battled for who was least lucky in this one, and I won).

1-2

It was a pretty bad showing, but that happens. I do like 4 Tops, and the main thing I want to do is add one more Fetch land. My only other real issue was that I missed a recruitable anti-artifact target in the Goblins match (yes, I'm totally going back on what I said last week).

[DrewliusMaximus]

A small area of Houston appears to have gone from nothing to Legacy-junky recently. We had 2 tournaments on Saturday at Asgard Games (http://www.asgardgames.net/forums/index.php?topic=27.0) because obviously one is not enough. I played the following Imperial Painter list in both:

9 Mountain
1 Mire
1 Wooded Foothill
8 City/Tomb
3 Mox
4 SSG
4 Magus
4 Recruiter
4 Servant
3 Jaya
1 Shusher
4 Pyroblast
3 REB
4 Grindstone
3 Magma Jet
4 Top
SB
4 Trinisphere
4 Relic
4 Pyrokinesis
2 Blood Moon
1 Viashino Heretic

The first tournament was only 8 people.

Match 1: Burn - I usually expect to lose this, but I won the first game by drawing both Grindstone and Servant in a land heavy-hand. I played a Grindstone on turns 1 and 3, while dropping a Tomb, Mountain, and City, and getting burned. On turn 4 I had Servant, Blast and SSG in hand, and he had tapped 2 of his 3 land to play something (can’t remember what), so I played Servant and won with Blast support. SB: -1 Magus of the Moon, -1 Shusher, -1 Blast, -1 Jet, +4 Trinisphere. In game 2, I played a turn 1 Top that found a turn 2 Trinisphere. I was able to get Servant and Jaya down and proceeded to destroy lands.

1-0 (2-0)

Match 2: Enchantress w/Moat – Game 1 I kept a hand with 2 City, 1 Top, 2 Servant, 1 Blast, 1 Jet, and the first turn Top + Spin found my mountain. But even though I was able to disrupt his build up, he got Enchantress and Confinement down and started drawing his deck and playing non-threatening permanents. This was his first time playing Enchantress, so he made the mistake of letting his early Sacred Mesa get destroyed before essentially locking the game up with 2 Sterling Grove and a Confinement. By the time he had Sigil of the Empty Throne out he had too few cards left in his deck to play anymore enchantments. He ended up conceding when it became clear that the waiting game would end when he discarded his last card to Confinement and would then be forced to draw the final 2 cards of his library. SB: -3 Jet, +3 Relic. Game 2 I got out a Top and Relic on the first 2 turns while he played something like Utopia Sprawl, Exploration, Enchantress. I then proceeded to play stuff over the next several turns like Magus and Servant, but before anything significant happened, he had Confinement along with many other things including a Seal of Primordium. He drew, played , and discarded a bunch of enchantments for a few turns while I spun Top, blasted some enchantments, and finally found Jaya. Right after I began threatening his permanents, he played several more things and then attempted a Replenish, but I popped Relic in response. That turned out to be game, but since it was his first time playing his deck, he didn’t realize he could have blown up his Seal to force me to pop Relic and then Replenished a turn later. I realized at the end that I had failed to SB out Shusher, so next time I could get 4 Relics in.

2-0 (4-0)

Match 3: ANT – Game 1, I went first and I think I had a Top and the only disruption I managed against him in the first 3 turns was maybe one blast, so he wins about then. SB: -3 Jaya, -1 Shusher, -1 Top, -1 Jet, +4 Trinisphere, +2 Moon. In the second game, I get an early Magus with a Top and Grindstone turn 2, and I think I ended up finding the combo to win. I can’t really remember how game 3 started, but I misplayed by not blasting a Mystical Tutor. He found some accelerant that ended up in an un-blastable attempt to combo, but I’m pretty sure this was the game where he drew Tendrils and Ad Nauseum as the first 2 cards off a casted AN, and ended up killing himself. That was the first time I had ever seen ANT self-destruct, but it’s nice to know it can happen. *Disclaimer - I played Brian with ANT 3 times yesterday, so I might have confused some games with others. Also I think seem to remember my games against ANT as “Who went first and did I get Magus/Moon, Sphere or Painter-Grindstone turn 1 or 2?” If none of the above happened, I probably lost.

3-0 (6-1)

Top 4: Elephant Stompy – He had to mulligan a few times I think. I ended up winning this because of that I think, but I don’t remember too much of this one. Game 2, I kept a decent hand with Top that was kind of slow since I was on the draw, but would have allowed me set up the combo with a Recruiter and a Stone. Of course he started with a turn 1 Spawnwrithe that quickly multiplied and started carrying a Jitte. Pretty overwhelming. In the third game I won with a quick combo.

4-0 (8-2)

Finals: ANT – In the first game I got an early Magus that began attacking immediately. In the next few turns I played a Recruiter for a Servant, but then he was able to stall with some Chants, drop a Xantid Swarm and try and go off. Because he was so low on life and I was at 19, he decided to stop drawing at 5 because I think he could only Tendrils with storm 9. I had 3 damage attacking the following turn, which he let through, but I had a Magma Jet in hand and won. SB: -1 Shusher, -3 Jaya, -2 Jet, +4 Sphere, +2 Moon. Game 2 I played a second-turn 3Sphere, and a third-turn Magus, which beat down slowly but I was able to blast many spells (at 3 cc per blast), get a Painter down, and then the same turn I ended up with lethal damage, I also got the Grindstone.

5-0 (10-2)

Alright, now my second tournament was paid for. 12 people played in the second tournament.

Match 1: White Weenie – Game 1 I played either a Servant or Jaya, but it was STP’d immediately and he got a Soltari Priest and a Silver Knight out and just beat me down. SB: -3 Magus, -1 Shusher, -1 Blast, +4 Pyrokinesis, +1 Heretic. Game 2 I got a turn 3 combo with blast support. Game 3, I played a first turn Grindstone and a second turn Recruiter for Servant. On his next turn he O-Ringed my Grindstone, but I play Servant turn 3 with a Blast in hand, planning to destroy the O-Ring and go off next turn. He then plays True Believer but I have Jaya, Pyrokinesis, SSG and another Servant in hand, and so eot I remove Jaya to Pyrokinesis his Believer, and then on turn 4 I drop a second Servant with Grindstone out, and use SSG to combo.

1-0 (2-1)

Match 2: ANT – Again. I kept a crappy hand which I thought might be enough to dig something by turn 3 with Top and Jet, but he ended up going off on turn 2 or 3 without me doing much. SB: -3 Jaya, -1 Shusher, -1 Top, -1 Jet, +4 Sphere, +2 Moon. Game 2 I get a first turn Magus that shuts him down pretty good, and I don’t remember how I won. Game 3, we both mulligan and I settle again on a slow hand with a first turn Top. I lose on turn 3.

1-1 (3-3)

Match 3: Enchantress – This was not the same guy I played against in the first tournament. He did not run Moat. In the first game I used Top to assemble Painter-Grindstone early, and blast a Confinement. SB: -3 Jet, -1 Shusher, +4 Relic. Game 2 I set up Jaya with Servant early and controlled the game.

2-1 (5-3)

Top 4: UGW Loamstill – Chris had a really nice Landstill build. I played it twice for practice right before we were paired together and I won pretty easily with an early Magus and a fast combo or something like that. But his decks had some cool tricks I didn’t get to see. Game 1, I'm pretty sure we both started out with a Top, but while I start to assemble the combo confidently with blast support, he Forces through a Humility. Luckily, Magus works through Humility, so his manlands can’t block, and I start attacking. But he Wishes for Pulse of the Fields, and attacking becomes irrelevant for the rest of the game. I tried to just Grindstone him normally, but he eventually got rid of the Magi and beat me with manlands. SB: -3 Jet, +2 Moon, +1 Heretic. Game 2, I know we both get early Tops and I get a Grindstone. But again he plays a turn 4 Humility. I am able to keep pressure on by using Top and Grindstoning my own library to get rid of useless cards (if they don’t share colors). I don’t remember too much about Game 3. I know I had to mulligan and then he got Humility out, and I was not able to keep Magus or Moon in play because he was able to keep an EE out for 3 at all times.

2-2 (6-6)

And a good time was had by all.

Thoughts:
1. I was starting to miss the 3rd Jaya after the last 2 weeks. 3 Jayas apparently give me a great game against Enchantress, and makes the Trinisphere lock so much better (like it did for me against Burn).
2. I am wondering if I should take more/all Tops out against ANT and keep Jets in.
3. I have not had enough exposure to Humility recently. I think I sideboarded totally wrong against it in Loamstill. I probably should have taken out the Grindstones, and kept the Jets in, doing something like -4 Grindstone, +2 Moon, +2 Pyrokinesis, and going for beatdown. Chris’s Loamstill had a Wishboard with Pulse of the Fields though, so winning with damage required blasting his Wish or keeping my life within 4 of his with Ancient Tombs and mana burn.
4. 2 fetchlands is good.

[GoldenCid]

How do we get rid of a gaea's blessing??? Crypt or Relic. You're welcome. ~NC

[DrewliusMaximus]

How do we get rid of a gaea's blessing??? Crypt or Relic. You're welcome. ~NC

Also, Faerie Macabre.

[GoldenCid]

Also, Faerie Macabre.

Yeah...but you can play it in response to gaea's ability, then he shuffles.
The next turn you grind again right??

[Michael Keller]

Yeah...but you can play it in response to gaea's ability, then he shuffles.
The next turn you grind again right??

If you Grind an opponents' library, and he reveals a Gaea's Blessing, the Grindstone still completes the cycle through his entire library. It will be at the moment there are no cards left to "Grind" that Gaea's Blessing will trigger.

This is where Tormod's Crypt is especially handy. Once that trigger goes on the stack, you remove your opponents' library from the game. Or, like you said, you could remove the Blessing(s) from the game with the Faerie and then proceed to Grind next turn.

I know I promised a list a while back but I've updating the deck so much in the past few weeks I haven't had a chance to post a finished product. Some things I was considering:

1.) Adding Blue for the obvious Trinket Mage search ability factor.
2.) Blue for draw/search effects.
3.) Adding black for speed and disrupt.
4.) Adding White for Enlightened Tutor and Swords. I even thought at one point of trying Hanna's Custody (http://findmagiccards.com/Cards/TP/Hanna_s_Custody.html) and altering the deck into a strange White Stax shell. The total creature count dropped and I ended up adding Magus of the Tabernacle - who, sweetly enough - can be fished for by the Recruiter. Armageddon also found its way into the list.

I'll be updating my new list tonight.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Right. Relic and Crypt allow you to win the same turn that Gaea's blessing goes into the yard whereas with Faerie Macabre you have to Grind again.

Hollywood, I hope you finally post that list man. It's about damn time.

I played the last two weekends, totally scrubbing out due to horrible draws two Sundays ago, but making top 4 this past Saturday. I made some minor changes for this past weekend, playing the following:

9 Mountain
1 Mire
1 Foothills
8 City/Tomb
3 Mox
4 SSG
4 Magus
4 Recruiter
4 Servant
2 Jaya
1 Shusher
1 Goblin Welder
4 P Blast
3 REB
4 Grindstone
4 Magma Jet
3 Top
SB
4 Trinisphere
3 Relic
4 Pyrokinesis
2 Blood Moon
1 REB
1 Hearth Kami

It didn't come into play much in the tournament, but in at least one practice game, Goblin Welder showed its merit. At first, I thought Welder would not be that good because you would almost always rather recruit a Servant. However, Welder is not only a better Recruiter target than Servant in many situations, but it's also a great regular draw. Welder will usually grab your opponent's attention early, and can come along later and win the game. He allows you to play around artifact hate, and even hate your opponent's artifacts as long as they've got at least one in the yard. I also like how Welder allows you to more thoroughly abuse Trinisphere. The only major dis-synergy is with Relic. Welder is only good under certain conditions, so I wouldn't play more than 1 or 2 unless you use Gambles and focus on abusing Welder himself in your deck. Still though, Welder's ability is good enough with Imperial Painter's existing strategy that it seems like you need one in there.

As for my SB, I added a Hearth Kami so that I could recruit some artifact destruction without summoning sickness. I was thinking that with Welder around, the fact that Kami has to be sac'd isn't a big deal because Welder can remain and play tricks with the opponent's artifacts once Kami has put one of them in the yard. I also added the 8th Blast in the board to maximize blue hate. But after playing Dreadstill and losing to an active Countertop, I am considering replacing the Blast with a 2nd Shusher. Shusher gets through Countertop at any time, but can be taken by Shackles or killed. Blast is just generally more useful and will allow you to stop Counterbalance when it's cast, but once Countertop is active, Blast is useless. Any thoughts on that?

Also, have you guys seen the Wisescale Serpent spoiled out of the new set? If it is printed as spoiled, it will probably be right under Goyf in terms of brokenness. Should Wisescale Serpent make a Goyf-like impact on Legacy, I could see Imperial Painter being an even more competitive deck than it is now, as Red Blasts will become much more relevant.

[GoldenCid]

Right. Relic and Crypt allow you to win the same turn that Gaea's blessing goes into the yard whereas with Faerie Macabre you have to Grind again.


Sorry, but i don't understand this difference...:frown:

[DrewliusMaximus]

Think of it this way GoldenCid: once Gaea's Blessing's ability is triggered, your opponent's graveyard is definitely going back into their library after Grindstone is finished, unless you do something about it. With Faerie Macabre, you can remove the Blessings from the game before they are shuffled back into the library, so that if you Grindstone again in the future, they won't be there anymore. However, the rest of the graveyard will still get reshuffled into the library because Blessing has already triggered. The key here is that you have to Grindstone AGAIN. With Relic or Crypt, you can watch all your opponent's cards go into their graveyard, including the Blessings, and then when Grindstone is finished, right before they would reshuffle everything back into their library, you remove their ENTIRE graveyard from the game. Blessing's ability now has no cards put back into their library, so you win as long as they are forced to draw a card at some point.

This of course requires that you have Relic or Crypt out when you activate Grindstone, and in Relic's case, you'd have to be able to pay 1 to activate its wholesale graveyard removing ability.

Does this make sense?

[Michael Keller]

Alright, back to business.

Taking a look back at the original incarnation of Imperial Painter and seeing how it has evolved over the past year or two has really given me an idea of where the deck has been and where it going. For reference, here was the last version I played in 2008:

Imperial Painter as of 7/27/2008

[4x] Painter's Servant
[4x] Simian Spirit Guide
[4x] Magus of the Moon
[4x] Imperial Recruiter
[4x] Pyroblast
[4x] Red Elemental Blast
[4x] Lightning Bolt
[4x] Grindstone
[3x] Chrome Mox
[3x] Sword of Light and Shadow
[2x] Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
[1x] Vexing Shusher
[1x] Dragon Whelp

//Land
[10x] Mountain
[4x] Ancient Tomb
[4x] City of Traitors

//Sideboard
[4x] Trinisphere
[4x] Pyrokinesis
[3x] Faerie Macabre
[2x] Viashino Heretic
[1x] Vexing Shusher
[1x] Silent Arbiter


It seems as though through the last few incarnations of Imperial Painter (R/x), there is an issue that has been addressed and attacked over and over again: Consistency. By supplementing the overall strategy of the deck with various tools like Enlightened Tutor and Goblin Welder, the deck really seems to run a little better with more ways of actually getting your Painter and/or Grindstone in play, no matter where it may be.

Here's the list I've been running for the last few months with some degree of success. You'll notice some important changes I've made, most notably, the addition of the color white.

Imperial Painter as of 24APRIL2009.

//Spells
[4x] Painter's Servant
[4x] Imperial Recruiter
[4x] Figure of Destiny
[4x] Simian Spirit Guide
[4x] Red Elemental Blast
[4x] Grindstone
[4x] Lightning Bolt
[4x] Magus of the Moon
[3x] Enlightened Tutor
[3x] Chrome Mox
[2x] Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
[1x] Viashino Heretic
[1x] Goblin Sharpshooter

//Land
[4x] Ancient Tomb
[4x] Plateau
[4x] City of Traitors
[2x] Sacred Foundry
[2x] Mountain
[2x] Bloodstained Mire

Updated.

Thoughts?

[DrewliusMaximus]

//Spells
[4x] Painter's Servant
[4x] Imperial Recruiter
[4x] Figure of Destiny
[4x] Simian Spirit Guide
[4x] Red Elemental Blast
[4x] Grindstone
[4x] Lightning Bolt
[4x] Magus of the Moon
[3x] Enlightened Tutor
[3x] Chrome Mox
[2x] Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
[1x] Viashino Heretic
[1x] Goblin Sharpshooter

//Land
[4x] Ancient Tomb
[4x] Plateau
[4x] City of Traitors
[2x] Sacred Foundry
[2x] Mountain
[2x] Bloodstained Mire


Alright, we finally got a list out of you Hollywood. Just curious, is the Sharpshooter supposed to be a Welder? With a Stompy Manabase and the Magus/Moon plan, I'm still wary of splashing a color, but I do think E Tutor maybe the best card this deck can get outside of red. I am interested in hearing about how well 4 Figure of Destiny works in this deck, and if you ever want more than 4 Blasts since you can more easily find Painter now. Also, I totally agree that consistency is where this deck can use the most help. I've found that Sensei's Top does wonders on that front, and I'd think that it would work really well with E Tutor to put the card you find into you hand immediately. Just some thoughts.

I played last weekend with the list I posted back on April 20th, except with a 2nd Shusher in the board instead of the 8th Blast. I went a disappointing 1-2, losing to RG Goblins in the first match, and Vial White Weenie in the second match. I beat NLU in the last match. A couple things I noticed from the first two matches were: I did want some way to find Grindstone to save my butt, Trinisphere played on the first turn actually screwed me over vs. White Weenie, and Viashino Heretic would have been better than Hearth Kami against Vials, but not against Jitte. The last match however made me happy to have that 2nd Shusher in the board.

So, I finally decided it would be worth it to try those Gambles along with the Welder. I played this build in a small tournament in Austin on Friday:

9 Mountain
1 Mire
1 Foothills
8 City/Tomb
3 Mox
4 SSG
4 Magus
4 Recruiter
4 Servant
2 Jaya
1 Shusher
1 Goblin Welder
2 Gamble
4 P Blast
3 REB
3 Grindstone
3 Magma Jet
3 Top
SB
4 Trinisphere
3 Relic
3 Pyrokinesis
2 Blood Moon
1 Jitte
1 Shusher
1 Viashino Heretic

I went 3-0 on Friday and won the tournament, beating UGW Elspeth Landstill in the first match, a mono-blue control in the second (not very competitive), and another UGW Elspeth Landstill in the third. I would definitely not consider this tournament as a huge endorsement for the new build, but I must say I was very pleased with how the changes improved the deck's flexibility. Against Elspeth Landstill, I found that boarding -2 Grindstone, -1 Servant, -1 Pyroblast and +2 Moon, +1 Shusher, +Jitte created a really nice variety of win conditions that apparently worked out. As I suspected, Gamble is very conditional and I did not want to see it too often or in multiples. However, it saved me twice. It works great with Top and Welder. Not only can Top provide an artifact in play for Welder to exchange for your discarded Grindstone, but you can draw an extra card to minimize your chances of discarding a Gambled card if that is what's called for. Additionally, you can use Top to draw a card and then use Welder in response to put Top in the graveyard so it doesn't go back on top of the library - kind of cool. I found that Gamble was a decent bet to get an early Servant or a Magus/Moon as long as I had 4+ cards in hand. Other times I just kept Gamble while I played things, and once I got Welder out, I played it with no other cards in hand to automatically put Grindstone in the yard. I won a game that way. I also did the same with a Jitte when my opponent Needled my Grindstone...I just exchanged the Grindstone that was on the board for my discarded Jitte and proceeded to beat down.

I wouldn't mind having another Welder maybe, but I don't think I'm going to find room for it. I will say that from what I can tell so far though, 2 Gambles and a Welder complement the basic Imperial Painter strategy very well, adding some consistency and flexibility. Having just 1 Jitte that I can Gamble up and/or Welder recur makes for a great alternative win condition in many situations, and can be used to kill opposing Jittes. Anyway, that's the latest experiment and I'm looking forward to testing it some more.

[Michael Keller]

Congrats on the finish.

The Sharpshooter is teetering on the brink of the sideboard as it stands. He's been fantastic against Survival variants because of how fast you can get him in play. Ultimately, though, I've included him as a killer of smaller green creatures to prevent Progenitus from coming into play sooner. As it stands, he is certainly not going to be staying in the main list.

Figure of Destiny has pretty much become almost like the new MVP of the deck (for me, anyways). Every time I drop him into play he milks a Swords. And what is most cool about him is yes, you can Imperial Recruiter for him, but you can also drop him that turn because of his one-drop cost. He also gets big really fast and can be a bomb late game with all that extra mana sitting around.

As for decks that pack the Natural Order, it can be hard for Imperial Painter to stop it once it actually happens. This is why I've decided to run Ensnaring Bridge and Anarchy in my sideboard. Once they actually get Prog into play, these are the most efficient ways in dealing with him (other than combo-ing out yourself).

What I've essentially done is cut the Pyroblasts, Dragon Whelp, and SoLaS for a more aggressive intervention. With the inclusion of Enlightened Tutor, you can now essentially fetch for all the pieces of the combo as well as sideboard artifacts.

The Goblin Welder in my list will end up taking the spot of Sharpshooter. What will end up happening is subbing out one Mountain for a Great Furnace so that I can Enlightened Tutor for it or switch it with a Goblin Welder if need be. It makes the deck slightly more susceptible to Waste-hate, but I've also included several fetches to off-set that potential threat.

[DrewliusMaximus]

You should post your sideboard Hollywood. I definitely like the idea of Ensnaring Bridge in this deck once you've got the ability to tutor it up. That's really interesting about the Figures of Destiny too. The fact that they eat up the opponent's removal or sit there threatening to get bigger seems pretty good. With 4 though, aren't there enough times where you don't have the colored mana to pump them? Whatever the case, you gotta love these 1cc critters that can be Recruited and played immediately. I'm doing that with Welder a lot lately. Oh, and speaking of that, what about Mother of Runes in your build?

[Michael Keller]

This is currently the sideboard I use for Imperial Painter:

[3x] Anarchy
[3x] Pyrokinesis
[2x] Sword of Light and Shadow
[2x] Faerie Macabre
[2x] Tormod's Crypt
[2x] Trinisphere
[1x] Ensnaring Bridge

Really, Enlightened Tutor has provided me with some fantastic options in troubleshooting problems more thoroughly. I like its versatility in the deck. I even thought of upping the count of Anarchy to four at one point.

With this new build it's not entirely out of the question in "white-washing" everything in play. I recently had a remarkable comeback against Enchantress. The guy had a ridiculous amount of permanents in play, and because of dropping all his lands with Exploration, he had nothing left in his hand after I named white and destroyed everything in play. Having the ability to push the reset button at your leisure is a very powerful asset.

[B0W53R]

@Hollywood: If you are only going to play one, isn't pyroblast better than REB? Since I have been running bridges it has come into play being able to actually cast Pyroblast without a Painter, although it doesn't do anything, just keep your hand size down if you have to. Also, is lightning bolt any good? I didn't think it was when I started with this deck and was dropped quickly. I doubt you use is for reach very often but maybe with Figures that is different. If it's for the critters, then Magma Jet or STP might be better, although I don't like the idea of playing too many white cards with no way to play them under moons sans chrome mox. When do you board in Sword of Light and Shadow? I've added a couple of Anarchy in the SB as well since I have lost to Humility more than a few times...

@Drew: I'd play a couple more fetches with the tops.

@both: Do you guys think this deck NEEDS SSG?

[Michael Keller]

@Hollywood: If you are only going to play one, isn't pyroblast better than REB? Since I have been running bridges it has come into play being able to actually cast Pyroblast without a Painter, although it doesn't do anything, just keep your hand size down if you have to. Also, is lightning bolt any good? I didn't think it was when I started with this deck and was dropped quickly. I doubt you use is for reach very often but maybe with Figures that is different. If it's for the critters, then Magma Jet or STP might be better, although I don't like the idea of playing too many white cards with no way to play them under moons sans chrome mox. When do you board in Sword of Light and Shadow? I've added a couple of Anarchy in the SB as well since I have lost to Humility more than a few times...

@Drew: I'd play a couple more fetches with the tops.

@both: Do you guys think this deck NEEDS SSG?


Anarchy is just amazing. Since placing it in the sideboard, I've found myself more and more wanting to draw into it. It has completely turned the tides in some fierce battles with decks packing cards like Progenitus, Moat, Humility, etc. It has now become a staple of the sideboard given the repercussions the cards listed above have on the game-state.

Sword of Light and Shadow comes in against similarly aggressive decks that pack cards like Swords and the sort. It helps beef up your creatures and gives you life when playing against decks packing annoying burn. It's better to have your opponent spend a Swords or burn spell on your Imperial Recruiter in response to an equip rather than Painter or Jaya.

Speaking of Jaya, she's been more of an Ace in the hole when it comes to Ensnaring Bridge. She's really multilateral with it out, being able to: Incinerate, destroy permanents, and discard cards from your hand keeping the Bridge good enough to halt an attack.

A lot of people have actually dropped Lightning Bolt from their versions of the deck, and that is fine. One of the problems the deck faced without it was dealing with an early Lackey or being able to knock off Tarmogoyfs after they've been dealt damage. Not to mention they're fantastic against more serious threats like Dark Confident, Birds of Paradise (very serious problem when dropped turn one - that kind of an advantage is not good when you don't have your combo in the early goings), and etc. I tossed it up against Swords to Plowshares, and I actually liked having Bolt better because it also helps serve as a finisher.

[Cacks]

I've never played this deck, so apologies if this is a bad plan, but has anyone tried a blue splash (in a welder version) for intuition? The concept is somewhat like Hollywoods interesting white version, but intuition can search up any common cards, with welder it can get silver bullets, and also can represent a one card kill (get 2 painter and 1 grindstone, or vice versa. Get grindstone into play, grind on the stack and weld in painter). It is obviously more mana intensive than enlightened tutor, but avoids card disadvantage.

It might also allow thirst for knowledge, as I've always wondered if the deck suffered from lack of draw spells. But I can't immediately see what one would cut for this. I'll leave that to those who know what they're talking about with this deck!

[Michael Keller]

I've never played this deck, so apologies if this is a bad plan, but has anyone tried a blue splash (in a welder version) for intuition? The concept is somewhat like Hollywoods interesting white version, but intuition can search up any common cards, with welder it can get silver bullets, and also can represent a one card kill (get 2 painter and 1 grindstone, or vice versa. Get grindstone into play, grind on the stack and weld in painter). It is obviously more mana intensive than enlightened tutor, but avoids card disadvantage.

It might also allow thirst for knowledge, as I've always wondered if the deck suffered from lack of draw spells. But I can't immediately see what one would cut for this. I'll leave that to those who know what they're talking about with this deck!

There are some versions of Imperial Painter out there that contain a blue splash for just that sort if thing. More the less, people tend to splash blue for Trinket Mage and miscellaneous draw effects (i.e. Brainstorm, Ponder, etc.). I've really only posted my list that runs white because I find it most effective in the current general competitive metagame. Blasts are certainly an effective means (combined with Painter's Servant) of handling just about any threat that comes your way, but I really felt the list needed to be a little more aggressive rather than defensive in its approach.

When you step back and take a look at what decks/cards that specifically pose a threat to Imperial Painter are, you'll find the majority are white. This again brings me back to how good Anarchy is. I've also found myself naming "white" occasionally to reset the board with a well-timed Anarchy. You might be wondering why I would do such a thing; destroying your own permanents isn't all that great, right? Well consider this:

You find yourself trapped in a situation you cannot get out of. You're staring down threat after threat and your opponent has made it crystal clear his or her intentions, which is to say, overwhelm you with obstacles. All you need to do is save some lands and/or Moxen. Now, when you drop something like Figure of Destiny after a mass-Anarchy, that can be a serious problem for an opponent really fast, because he can get big really fast, see what I mean?

The trick was to find the most powerful, undercosted creature for this particular deck with the substitution of Pyroblasts, and he fits the bill nicely. Adding blue to the deck doesn't do a whole lot except change the general approach to how you'd play the game. You try blue, by all means. It's just in my experience with this deck blue just seems to beat more around the bush than really pressing the issue of punishing an opponent faster than Red with a small white splash.

I mean, if you want to tutor for something, that's what the Enlightened Tutor is there for: One mana, instant, grabbing just about every useful artifact in the deck for you. Intuition is good, and it fits the curve, problem is there are many ways to kill each creature in the deck and all you're really doing is implying, "Hey, look: I just knocked off two more copies of this card for you so you don't have to deal with it anymore". That's not all entirely true, but to a large extent. Enlightened Tutor does essentially the same thing because in general the only thing you want to get is either the Painter or Grindstone, and that's also why you run Imperial Recruiter - to get those creatures you need right there and then.

[Cacks]

@ Hollywood: thanks - an excellent explanation! Can I just ask one other thing, are you happy sitting down vrs the rainbow of counterbalance / blue decks? One would presume this deck is designed to stomp on them, but if that is the case, why does one not see more numbers being put up for the deck? I suspect the answer may be the simple costs of Recruiters! Finally, what do you fear facing? Sorry for the barrage of questions, but I am intrigued by the deck!

[Michael Keller]

@ Hollywood: thanks - an excellent explanation! Can I just ask one other thing, are you happy sitting down vrs the rainbow of counterbalance / blue decks? One would presume this deck is designed to stomp on them, but if that is the case, why does one not see more numbers being put up for the deck? I suspect the answer may be the simple costs of Recruiters! Finally, what do you fear facing? Sorry for the barrage of questions, but I am intrigued by the deck!

Imperial Painter is a very expensive deck to play with and has those four particular cards that are very hard to find. The truth is, the deck doesn't get a whole lot of numbers put up because not everyone has the cards to play it. And honestly, it takes a great deal of skill and planning in order to play Imperial Painter. You really have to be multilateral in your approach to how to begin the game whether you're on the play or the draw.

I've had a great deal of success with it because I did a lot of play-testing with the team. It's a really fun deck to play once you get the cards for it.

I've rarely had a problem against decks packing CB. Three-CC cards are a little more difficult to counter and Jaya works great against it. There are also the obvious Blast effects.

[DrewliusMaximus]

@Drew: I'd play a couple more fetches with the tops.

At first, I was thinking the same thing, and so I tried the deck with 4 fetches. But I found that the deck uses Top in ways that, many times, want access to mana withOUT having to reshuffle. While you might sometimes use Top in an all-out search, this deck uses Top a significant amount of the time to merely stack the top 3 cards. For example, let's say it's after your draw step, you have Servant out and use Top to find Blast, Grindstone, and whatever else at the top of your library. You'll probably want Blast on top, so you can pop SDT and grab it if you need to protect your Painter, and Grindstone right beneath Blast. Of course, if you do end up popping the top for Blast protection, and the only available red mana you have is a fetchland, then you're forced to reshuffle your Grindstone away. That sort of a situation happens fairly frequently from my experience, so I've decided to limit the amount of fetches in the deck. If you see a bunch of crap with Top, there are already Recruiters and Gambles for reshuffling, and Magma Jets for scrying. Hell, even Grindstone can be used to take worthless cards off the top of your library (this is usually the sign of a painfully slow game).


@both: Do you guys think this deck NEEDS SSG?

In the build I use I think he's pretty important. First, because you can win games strictly off of a first turn Magus or Moon. SSG not only enables first-turn casting, but can even make a first turn Magus/Moon almost uncounterable if you have an extra SSG + Blast. SSG also allows Magma Jet to be cast on the first turn, which can be crucial against Elves, Goblins, and now, I suspect Noble Hierarch. Additionally, in a build like mine, where you have a bunch of MD Blasts, SSG means that you can tap out your lands and still surprise Blast a Counterbalance or Standstill. Finally - and this is probably not a reason SSG is needed, but it is cool - SSG means you can play around Daze in a way that surprises and annoys the hell out of your blue opponent.

[DrewliusMaximus]

I got 2nd in a tournament yesterday here in Houston with almost the same list as the one I played last week in Austin. The only difference was that I had 1 Anarchy in the SB instead of a third Pyrokinesis.


9 Mountain
1 Mire
1 Foothills
8 City/Tomb
3 Mox
4 SSG
4 Magus
4 Recruiter
4 Servant
2 Jaya
1 Shusher
1 Goblin Welder
2 Gamble
4 P Blast
3 REB
3 Grindstone
3 Magma Jet
3 Top
SB
4 Trinisphere
3 Relic
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Blood Moon
1 Anarchy
1 Jitte
1 Shusher
1 Viashino Heretic

I am definitely liking this list. I haven't tested many builds with splashed colors, because I hate losing due to manabase instability. And as far as mono-red builds go, this one has been the most consistent that I have played, and provided awesome flexibility. Here's a report from yesterday's tournament...

Match 1 - RGW Zoo: I was on the draw and not knowing what Joey was playing, I kept an iffy hand with a Mountain and SSG for land, a Jet, Magus, and some other stuff. He opened with a fully pumped Kird Ape, and when I did not draw another land 1st turn, I decided to Magma Jet (to the head) just to scry. I did find a City, and played Magus the following turn, but lost soon after. I sided -1 Shusher, -3 Jet, +1 Jitte, +3 Relic. Game 2 I kept another somewhat risky hand that included City, 2 SSG, Top, Servant, a Blast, and Welder. I played and used Top turn 1 with City, finding a Mox, a Grindstone and a second Blast. He played a Nactl I think. Then I played Mox, imprinting SSG, Servant and Welder. On his second turn he surprised the hell out of me and played Null Rod. That cards really sucks. So, I played Grindstone on my third turn, and passed. He bolted Servant on his turn, but I immediately Welded him back in putting Grindstone in the yard, and Blasting Rod with SSG. Now my Mox and Top were active again, and I knew there was another Blast on top of my library. I was able to pop the Top and grab it to counter a STP on my Servant still on his turn, and now he was tapped out. On my turn, I tapped Mox for mana, welded it out for Grindstone, and tapped City for the win. After seeing Null Rod, I sided again -1 Top, -1 Relic, +2 Magma Jet. Game 3 was slow. I think I started out by burning his first turn Nactl with Jet while it was still a 2/2. I followed with a Relic that ended up really shutting down his Goyfs and Lavamancers. I played a Magus got burned, took several beats from Lavamancers, but stabilized with a Servant who could block his guys. I ended up finding the combo eventually.

Match 2 - Elspeth/Humility Landstill: Game 1, I was on the play, and had a slow hand with mountains, Grindstone, Magus and Servant. I played a first turn Grindstone which resolved. His first turn was land, go. I had to pass my second turn, but luckily he did not play a Standstill or anything on his second turn. I played Magus turn 3, which got STP'd. He played Top I think. By turn 4, I had Servant and Blast in hand, with Grindstone still out, so I played Servant, and Blasted some sort of removal, and won on turn 5. I sided -3 Jet, -1 Grindstone, +1 Shusher, +1 Jitte, +2 Moon. Game 2 I beat him down to 8 under Magus, but he cleared the board with Disk (I probably overextended playing 2 Magus), and played Humility and then Elspeth. I wasn't able to come back from that. I didn't know he was running the Humility/Elspeth build, which is why I didn't side in Anarchy. For Game 3, I boarded out another Grindstone, and put Anarchy in. In Game 3 I played a second turn Blood Moon, which was countered. But my third turn Magus resolved, and really hurt him. I played Servant on turn 4, and Jaya on turn 5. Turn 6 I destroyed his only basic land, and that was essentially the game.

Match 3 - Draw with Modified Death and Taxes. Since both Jeff and I were already in Top 4, we drew. I didn't end up getting to play him, but he had a kind of hybrid between D&T and Angel Stompy. He had Angels and Tombs, but also had some of the cool D&T tricks with Magara etc.

Top 4 - Deadguy Ale: He is on the play and has a ridiculous start with double Ritual, Hyppie, and Hymn. He gets Jaya and a land, and I'm left with Mox, Servant, mountain, a red card and Grindstone. I can't remember what I drew, but I played mountain, Mox and got Servant out. Next turn he attacked and thankfully missed discarding my Grindstone. I played it on my following turn, but was still at 2 land. He then attacked again with Hyppie, and discarded the rest of my hand with Hymn. On my following turn however, I topdecked a City and won. Crazy. I sided -2 Gamble, -1 Shusher, -1 Blast, +3 Relic, +1 Jitte. Game 2 I used Tomb to get out Relic and Top on first turn. The game ended up being pretty slow. I burned an early Hyppie with Jet, played a Servant that got Vindicated, and popped all 3 Relics before it was over. Luckily I got those Relics, because he was stuck on 3 land and had a Tombstalker in hand the whole time. I ended up winning with a Magus that turned his white land off and Jaya.

Finals - ANT: I lost the die roll, which is usually the determinant of this matchup. He started with a Duress, but my hand was lands, Servant, 2 Grindstone, Mox, and Blast. He took Blast. I drew an SSG and started out with Tomb, Mox (SSG imprinted), Servant and Grindstone. He passed second turn, and I knew he had something up his sleeve, but I had to try. So I tapped to go off, but he Chain of Vapored Servant in response. So I put down a City and played him again. Unfortunately, he went off the following turn. Sideboard -1 Shusher, -2 Jaya, -3 Top, +2 Moon, +4 Trinisphere. I had a decent hand with Trinisphere, but I couldn't play it until second turn. I played mountain and passed first turn. Luckily he did not play Duress, and I played Trinisphere second turn. Turn 3 I played Servant, and he did have a third land on his third turn, and passed it back to me. At this point, I have used Tomb twice. I play a City on my fourth turn, having 2 Mountains, Tomb and City. I got really greedy here, and with Chain of Vapor fresh in my mind, I played a second Servant, and attempted to Blast one of his lands, hopiing to shut him out under Trinisphere. Of course, I guess I forgot that patience really is a virtue against combo, and he played Hurkyl's recall in response. He went off the next turn, and yes, I am an idiot.

That last match could have gone better, but the deck performed really well. Without splashing another color, I think that 2 Gambles and a Welder are perfect for this deck. All the sudden I feel like I have at least some answer for most decks in my SB, and the maindeck strategy is noticeably more consistent.

[gamegeek2]

I really like 4-5 fetches. Tops make the deck much, much better, and fetches make Top better.

[DrewliusMaximus]

I really like 4-5 fetches. Tops make the deck much, much better, and fetches make Top better.

Generally, fetches make Top better. But in this deck specifically, (and the build I use even more specifically) I haven't found that to be the case. See post 392.

[manugl84]

I know it´s not the normal monored build but...what do you guys think about this list? It made top8 in Bazaar of Moxen in France (475 ppl).

3 Imperial Recruiter
1 Magus of the Moon
4 Painter Servant
1 Grindstone
4 Trinket Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Chrome Mox
1 Veshing Shusher
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Badlands
3 Flooded Strand
1 Great Furnace
4 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island

SB:
2 Krosan Grip
2 Magus of The Moon
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Faerie Macabre
3 Thoughtseize
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Firespout

I like very much the idea of recruiter with creatures like llawan (your opponent won´t play creatures anymore if painter is in play).

Thoughts?

[DrewliusMaximus]

Lots of good cards in that list. Llawan is definitely awesome with Servant.

I have seen a few multi-colored builds that I like, mainly one out of Spain that was UBR and had no Recruiter. This is the first one I've seen that is more than 2 colors and uses Recruiter. I still like to abuse early Moon effects, which backfires if you don't go mono-red, but lists like the one you posted manugl84 are much less limited in what they can play.

I played again this week with the same list as last week, and went 1-2. I beat a GR Aggro and then lost to Bant Survival and Naya Aggro. I made some mistakes and got land flooded a few times, but I was still mostly pleased with the list. Obviously taking a mono-red approach with a Stompy manabase invites more bad luck than using Brainstorms, etc.

[gamegeek2]

// Lands
7 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
1 Great Furnace
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Academy Ruins

// Creatures
4 Trinket Mage
4 Painter's Servant
3 Imperial Recruiter
1 Magus of the Moon

// Spells
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroblast
3 Grindstone
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Daze

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Stifle
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Trickbind
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

Capable of a Dreadnought sideboard plan, this version is much more of a blue deck, incorporating the elements that make blue what it is today in Legacy.

[Ciberon]

Why 3 cb with only 2 sensei?

[nyoro]

Why 3 cb with only 2 sensei?

trinket mages can get it, and it's better in this deck to get grindstone or EE.

[sroncor1]

I have just recently switched to this deck from playing Faerie Stompy due to the inconsistencies. I have been testing Hollywood's list and making a few modifications here and there. I'm trying to get ready for a black lotus event and I have only been able to win one of these power events due to FS's decision sometimes to just not want to win. I do like having the Figures in the deck but i have cut the number down to 3 and cut the goblin welder/sharpshooter slot to add 2 tops. I do like the increases consistency. My main question comes in the sideboarding option. If any of this has been covered in early posts I'm sorry, I really did try to read through most of teh thread. Are only 2 trinispheres fast enough against combo. the tendrils deck that I playtest with sometimes is too fast and I have liked the added chance of magnus/trinispere first turn to slow them down. I,m sort of scared about goblins steam rolling me and so I have tried the Shard Phoenix and sometimes it is too slow and other times it really provides the time I need. Another deck I have had problems with is U/R/w painter top decks. there counters with swords really makes the match tough so I have added another shusher to the board to help push things through. Has been working allright.

@Hollywood- I saw in your post that you are in the DC area. I'm going to USUHS for medical school and thought maybe you would want to play if still in the area.

Thanks again for any help.

[DrewliusMaximus]

I have just recently switched to this deck from playing Faerie Stompy due to the inconsistencies. I have been testing Hollywood's list and making a few modifications here and there. I'm trying to get ready for a black lotus event and I have only been able to win one of these power events due to FS's decision sometimes to just not want to win. I do like having the Figures in the deck but i have cut the number down to 3 and cut the goblin welder/sharpshooter slot to add 2 tops. I do like the increases consistency. My main question comes in the sideboarding option. If any of this has been covered in early posts I'm sorry, I really did try to read through most of teh thread. Are only 2 trinispheres fast enough against combo. the tendrils deck that I playtest with sometimes is too fast and I have liked the added chance of magnus/trinispere first turn to slow them down. I,m sort of scared about goblins steam rolling me and so I have tried the Shard Phoenix and sometimes it is too slow and other times it really provides the time I need. Another deck I have had problems with is U/R/w painter top decks. there counters with swords really makes the match tough so I have added another shusher to the board to help push things through. Has been working allright.

sroncor1, I play with 4 Trinispheres in the SB and ANT will still just win sometimes. I wouldn't play with less than 4 3Spheres in the board though. If you really want to hate on Goblins and can spare 1 SB slot, you could run Goblin Pyromancer. And as for other PainterStone decks, I have usually approached them by boarding out 3 of my 4 Servants and waiting for them to supply the Paint. Against multi-colored build specifically, Magus is a good Recruiter target, but Jaya, Heretic and Welder have also worked well for me. While I haven't played Hollywood's RW build, I will say that Imperial Painter has been much more consistent for me than Faerie Stompy (which is pretty much the only other Legacy deck I have built right now).

Even though I haven't posted recently, I played IP the last two weekends and my mono-red build has evolved a little over that time. Two weekends ago I played this:

9 Mountain
1 Mire
1 Foothills
8 City/Tomb
3 Mox
4 SSG
4 Magus
4 Recruiter
4 Servant
1 Welder
2 Jaya
1 Shusher
7 Blast
3 Magma Jet
1 Gamble
4 Grindstone
3 Top
SB
4 Trinispheres
3 Relic
1 Jitte
2 Moon
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Heretic
1 Shusher

I made top 4 with this but lost to RWG Zoo 2-1.

Last weekend I tweaked it a little by going -3 Jet, +1 Gamble, +2 Welder in the MD, and changed the SB to be:
4 Trinisphere
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Jitte
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Moon
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Heretic
1 Shusher

I got to top 4 again, but this time lost to Merfolk 2-1. I hate losing to blue decks with IP!

So I changed my build again this week and tested a bit on Wednesday. I am in California for a wedding this weekend so I won't be able to play with it in a tournament until next weekend, but here's the build I've got right now:

8 Mountain
1 Mire
1 Foothills
4 Mox
4 SSG
4 Magus
4 Recruiter
4 Servant
2 Jaya
2 Welder
1 Shusher
6 Blast
2 Gamble
2 Blood Moon
4 Grindstone
3 Top
SB
4 Trinisphere
3 Relic/Crypt
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Jitte
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Heretic
1 Shusher

I went back to 4 Mox because it is more ammo for Welder and I want to try maximizing explosive turn-1 plays again. Adding the 2 MD Moons goes well with this approach, and hopefully the extra Mox will help against ANT and other combo when I board in Trinispheres. I may end up missing the 7th Blast, but what I have noticed recently is that Imperial Painter can't keep up with many decks in a one-for-one threat-and-answer game. So I want to try using more permanents that apply a continuous effect on the game-state, thus the MD Moons and the extra Ensnaring Bridge in the SB.

Now that I am using Welder and Gamble to take advantage of my graveyard, I am not sure if I should be using Relics, so I have 3 SB slots that could be Crypts instead. But I love how you can keep your opponents graveyard empty the entire game with Relics, as well as the cantrip effect and the fact that you completely neuter Goyfs, Terravores etc. So I'm wondering if I can still use Relics and just play around my own Welding. Any thoughts on this?

[sroncor1]

@DrewliusMaximus- Thanks for the reply. I like how you took the deck in a more consistent combo role. What do you do though if you lose the ability to combo out on your oppenent? thank you for the advice on siding and I'm not sure how I missed it but taking out the servents does really make the matchup better. Not sure if I'm ready to drop the aggro plan. I have cut the figures down to three and it seems like a great number. I have been following Hollywood's general list except I also run two tops. Had to cut the goblin welder/sharpshooter to do this though. Also I have alternated between the different burns. I think I will stay with the bolt, but I added some fetches to make the tops a little stronger. I'll report after the tourny with results and my final decklist.

[Michael Keller]

@DrewliusMaximus- Thanks for the reply. I like how you took the deck in a more consistent combo role. What do you do though if you lose the ability to combo out on your oppenent? thank you for the advice on siding and I'm not sure how I missed it but taking out the servents does really make the matchup better. Not sure if I'm ready to drop the aggro plan. I have cut the figures down to three and it seems like a great number. I have been following Hollywood's general list except I also run two tops. Had to cut the goblin welder/sharpshooter to do this though. Also I have alternated between the different burns. I think I will stay with the bolt, but I added some fetches to make the tops a little stronger. I'll report after the tourny with results and my final decklist.

I probably should have made this point before, so I might as well now. The list I posted before was sort of preliminary and was by no means set in stone. I don't run those cards in the deck anymore. In fact, I've always been an advocate of Divining Top in Imperial Painter.

Just as a reference, I haven't been playing this deck a whole lot recently, so it is good to see new ideas prosper. I noticed there are hybrids that are appearing all over the place, be it R/w or R/u.

[DrewliusMaximus]

@DrewliusMaximus- Thanks for the reply. I like how you took the deck in a more consistent combo role. What do you do though if you lose the ability to combo out on your oppenent? thank you for the advice on siding and I'm not sure how I missed it but taking out the servents does really make the matchup better. Not sure if I'm ready to drop the aggro plan. I have cut the figures down to three and it seems like a great number. I have been following Hollywood's general list except I also run two tops. Had to cut the goblin welder/sharpshooter to do this though. Also I have alternated between the different burns. I think I will stay with the bolt, but I added some fetches to make the tops a little stronger. I'll report after the tourny with results and my final decklist.

The Welders and Gambles do make the combo more consistent, but they also allow for more flexibility. For example I can board in a Jitte and tutor for it to go aggro, or find a Relic to remove a Gaea's Blessing, or get a Bridge to buy some time, or even tutor for non artifact stuff (like Moons or Blasts) as long as I have enough cards in hand that the Gamble is worth it. The Welders especially reinforce this deck's main strategy really well. There are so many little tricks you can play with them like Welding out a Servant to protect it from a STP, or popping a Top but Welding it out in response so it goes into the graveyard instead of on your library. And I have only done this once in real game play, but if you have a Grindstone and a Welder out, you can blindly Grind yourself to put a Servant in your yard and then Weld it out for the combo. I do sacrifice the aggro plan to a certain extent, but just 1 Jitte in the SB is enough to provide a tutor-able and recur-able aggro plan on its own.

So I hope you did ok at the tournament man. You should give a report when you get a chance.

[sroncor1]

So the tournament did not go as well as planned. I ended the day 2-3 but I think it was more to a couple of play errors(guess it is harder to jump back into competitive games after 9 months than I thought) and some terrible luck on my part than anything. The deck is definitely strong and very consistent. I would venture a guess it is one of the most consistent and resilient “combo” decks. Onto the deck list and a short match report and a few thoughts on card choices moving forward.

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter’s servent
4 Grindstone
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Litghning Bolt
4 SSG
3 Chrome Mox
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Figure of Destiny
3 Pyroblast
2 tops
2 Jaya Ballard
1 Vexing Shusher
1 REB
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tombs
4 Plataeu
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Mountains

Side
4 Trinisphere
4 pyrokinesis
2 REB
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Goblin Welder
1 Relic of Progentis
1 faerie macabre
1

Rd 1 versus Dragon Stompy
In game one we exchange beats and eventually I get a Magus and a Servant on the board and he has some mana and a Gathan Raiders backed up with Trinisphere. I decide to blow up the raiders with my REB because he only has one card in hand and I had Pyroblast in hand with Imperial Recruiter. On the next turn he drops Chalice for three. I try to keep beating but eventually he gets a bigger dude, not sure which one, and wins the war. I may have made a misplay here and blown up the Trinisphere but I really thought it wasn’t going to slow me down and I wanted to press my superior board position and leverage that for the win. I only sided in the Viashino Heretic, taking out a Magus. Game 2 was uneventful with me comboing off turn three under little pressure from him and we are onto game 3. I have to Mull down to 5 and then I set up the combo and stabilize the board, but I need a third mana source to activate. After 4 draws he drops a hellbent dragon and I am off to the losers bracket. I don’t think I messed anything up in the third game as I had so many outs that I could have drawn and my luck just wasn’t there.

Rd 2 versus Faerie Stompy
This match up really broke my heart. I knew playing FS that this should be in my favor. The modern versions of FS definitely have trouble with Imperial Painter, but who would have thought the guy would be playing a tricked out version of flash era FS. Either way game one was not close as he went double Cloud of Faeries into Jitte on the play. Couldn’t really do much and the game was over a few turns later. Onto game two with me siding in the Heretic, 2 REB, and the Shusher for , 2 Bolts and 2 Grindstones. The game starts off strong for my side of the board with early Grindstone and a couple REB in hand. He drops a SoFI followed up by an Serendib that he couldn’t equip. I draw into a Shusher. I play the Shusher knowing that from here on none of my spells are counterable and I will be able to combo off in a turn or two max. I use the Shusher’s ability to make the REB uncounterable and he stifles it then counters my spell. WTF. What competent FS player would waste slots on stifle. Needless to say he equipped and beat me faster than I could find a Servant.

Rd 3 versus Dreadstill
I think he had an optimal build except for not having a playset of the duals. Game one was a long affair with him eventually resolving a Dreadnought and beating me. I sided in the additional Shusher and the Welder and removed 2 Lightning Bolts. I was on the play and I drops first turn Servant with a REB off SSG to counter his FoW. Next turn I dropped the Shusher and then proceeded to get the Grindstone and mill him out without him able to counter my threats. Game 3 I had to end up going the beat down route. He countered an early grindstone but the Magus next turn followed by Imperial Recruiter and Figure where too much for him as his life total quickly dropped to 0.

Rd 4 versus Belcher
Not sure if it was a bad version of Belcher or not, although aren’t all versions of this deck bad? But sometimes bad decks win. He won the die roll and I didn’t get to lay a land the first game. Game 2 was slightly different with me having the turn 2 combo, except he again hit the turn one belcher. What are you to do?

Rd 5 versus MUC
I took this one in two games. Winning game one with the combo and game two through the beat down of 500 1/1’s. It was funny though as game two he hit a FoF turn four into three islands and 2 Pithing Needles. I gave him both needles as I had already decided I wasn’t going to try and combo him out and I didn’t want him to have the mana to be able to use multiple Shackles on me, or be able to get a fully pumped up Figure. By the end of the game he had three needle out naming Grindstone, Jaya Ballard , and Figure. Jaya and the Figure could still swing and that was that.
Overall I really do love the deck. I made a few misplays but overall in testing, I have to say the deck is really strong. I played a lot with some old friends in the area and I had no problem with Ichorid or the various Rock type decks floating around. I definitely think Goblin Welder needs to be in the main deck as he is just too strong and he is just too versatile and good. The Lightning Bolts were the card most sided out but I still hesitate to get rid of them as they help so much versus goblins and affinity and random dudes. I might cut on of the Enlightened Tutors down also. Either way I will keep experimenting with the deck as there are a few more Legacy tournaments in the coming weeks and hopefully I will not play like scrub this time.

[DrewliusMaximus]

sroncor1, what's the last card in your SB? Sorry to hear about the tourney outcome, but getting land screwed and first-turn Belched (twice?) isn't exactly good luck. FS with Stifle is kind of strange too. I will say that I usually board in Pyrokinesis against Dragon Stompy, and that might have helped but who knows. Also, I am a big fan of Welder in the MD now. The way I see it, this deck's main thing is to get and keep a Painter out, and Welder really helps that cause (as well as doing a bunch of other tricks).

[sroncor1]

Sorry it was a Viashino Heretic. Never got to actually have him resolve as he was always countered so I guess that means he is good. I have been playing with the deck a little more. I'll post again in a few days with some more results.

[Michael Keller]

Sorry it was a Viashino Heretic. Never got to actually have him resolve as he was always countered so I guess that means he is good. I have been playing with the deck a little more. I'll post again in a few days with some more results.

Heretic has always been a threat whenever he hits play. I've only had him resolve a handful of times in sanctioned play because he always gets either countered or swept away by a Swords at EOT. His ability is very potent.

Also, I'd be interested in knowing how Jitte is doing for all of you. I noticed that is what everyone is playing in the deck now over Sword.

[DrewliusMaximus]

My experience with Heretic is the same. I've only had him stay on the board for a few turns in all the games I've played with him. I'll be playing this Sunday, and I'm dedicating a second slot in the SB for anti-artifact, and I'm debating on whether to have a 2nd Heretic or mix a Goblin Tinkerer in there as a lower-cost alternative. That way I might be better able to Recruit my artifact-hating creature and play it on the same turn.


Also, I'd be interested in knowing how Jitte is doing for all of you. I noticed that is what everyone is playing in the deck now over Sword.

Jitte has been really good for me. It's a Swiss Army equipment that handles a bunch of problems, and/or just allows you to go aggro. Here are some of the reasons I like Jitte:

1. You choose when it triggers - since our guys don't have evasion, the opponent often gets to have a say as to when a Sword's ability occurs.
2. It helps remove swarms of creatures, which can be a problem for this deck.
3. It's faster than Sword, and gains more life, which can really help stabilize against Burn/Sligh.
4. It gives you some outs against pro-red guys - and this is not just White Weenie. The Survival Elves deck I play against has a SB White Enchantment that gives his creatures protection from red (can't remember what it's called).
5. This is minor, but Jitte can actually kill Elspeth tokens even after they have been made indestructible...nice.

Also, since I play with Relics in the SB, I don't like the dis-synergy between the Sword and Relic. I definitely want either Sword or Jitte in my SB, since equipment is my favorite way to handle Humility, and until they make another amazing alternative, these two are the best ones. I would say the biggest advantage of Sword in my mind (aside from the pro white/black of course) is that once it's equipped, it is no longer vulnerable to Pithing Needle or Null Rod (which is appearing now in my metagame). But overall, those issues aren't enough to sway me away from Jitte for the time-being.

[sroncor1]

So I will be playing in two events this coming weekend. I'll be playing the same maindeck except for the fact that I switched out an Enlightened Tutor for a Goblin Welder. I have been happy with the results. While the Enlightened Tutor have been not so amazing in game one, they have allowed me to run singleton jittes, ensnaring bridge, and dredge stoppers to great effect. I haven't had the same results with Gamble although I will keep trying it. Ill post a decklist later in the week and then another report. I can say though that the jitte is amazing when you switch to the aggro plan, although I have figures in my build.

[DrewliusMaximus]

I got first in 16-person tournament yesterday with this list:

9 Mountain
1 Mire
1 Foothills
8 City/Tomb
3 Mox
4 SSG
4 Magus
4 Recruiter
4 Servant
2 Jaya
1 Shusher
1 Welder
7 Blast
2 Blood Moon
2 Magma Jet
4 Grindstone
3 Top
SB
4 Trinisphere
3 Relic
2 Jitte
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Viashino Heretic
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Shusher

Round 1: 2-1 against a non-traditional Tendrils deck
Round 2: 2-1 against UGR Gro
Round 3: 1-2 against ANT
Round 4: 2-0 against Enchantress
Top 4: 2-0 against UGW Dreadstill
Final: 2-1 against ANT

I agree with you sroncor1 that Gambles aren't that hot. They can do amazing things, but overall I'd say they make the deck less consistent. So I went back to Magma Jets - they're always useful. And I'm loving the MD Moons!

Obviously the deck did well, but I didn't have to play Zoo, which has been a problem for me. Also, I tested a little against my friend's Aggro Loam with a few MD v MD games, and that is a rough matchup pre-board. I'm wondering if I should put the 4th Relic in the SB for matches like that, especially since one of my friends is playing Ichorid now in our meta (and doing pretty well). Or, I could even go back to one of my older board choices: Stuffy Doll. I'm not sure what exactly I am going to do with the board (any thoughts are appreciated), but I like this MD. I am going to keep it unchanged for a little while and hopefully get to test it against a wider variety of decks in the next couple of weeks.

[Michael Keller]

I got first in 16-person tournament yesterday with this list...

Obviously the deck did well, but I didn't have to play Zoo, which has been a problem for me.

The thing is with Imperial Painter, every match is winnable because the deck can play so many different ways. There's some powerful defense weapons the deck implies against storm-combo (Trinisphere, Blast), which I noticed you lost to. It happens.

Other aggro decks packing cards like Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolt have traditionally been a problem for this version of Painter. It's just the nature of the beast. However, that doesn't mean there are options to improve those match-ups. Cards like Umazawa's Jitte really help in taking out dudes who are bigger than yours. And, like Sword of Light and Shadow before it, Jitte also provides a much needed boost of life to offset Ancient Tombs and to pump your guys to take out other creatures.

[DrewliusMaximus]

The thing is with Imperial Painter, every match is winnable because the deck can play so many different ways. There's some powerful defense weapons the deck implies against storm-combo (Trinisphere, Blast), which I noticed you lost to. It happens.

Other aggro decks packing cards like Swords to Plowshares and Lightning Bolt have traditionally been a problem for this version of Painter. It's just the nature of the beast. However, that doesn't mean there are options to improve those match-ups. Cards like Umazawa's Jitte really help in taking out dudes who are bigger than yours. And, like Sword of Light and Shadow before it, Jitte also provides a much needed boost of life to offset Ancient Tombs and to pump your guys to take out other creatures.

Yeah, the combo matchup really depends on the die roll. And even after you drop Trinisphere, you have to close the deal because of cards like Serenity. Overall IP has the cards to deal with combo, but I also accept that there isn't anything you can do tunr 1 and 2 wins sometimes.

As for the aggro match, I assume you meant to use the double negative "that doesn't mean there aren't...", in which case I agree. There are options to improve the matchup, and I also agree that equipment are maybe the best of them. I think this particular build of IP needs to approach many aggro decks by becoming less dependent on Servant because they can too easily remove him.

[Michael Keller]

Absolutely. To reiterate, Imperial Painter can defeat every deck in the format - with the right draws. When performing with this deck, you need to make decisions expeditiously. Winning a dice roll puts you in the drivers seat, and that is very important because of your options when examining your opening hand. Here are some things to consider:

1.) I don't know what I'm playing against, but I have a feeling they're packing control. Should I hold back dropping that Painter until next turn when I can support my Blast effect?

2.) Am I going to go for their lands off the bat with Painter/Blast?

3.) Do I feel it necessary to exhaust my hand in dropping a turn one Magus? Will that ultimately matter?

4.) Should I play Figure of Destiny turn one and bait a Swords rather than playing my Grindstone and preparing next turn to drop Painter or Imperial Recruiter?

5.) Should I wait a turn to play a creature and bait Daze with Simian Spirit Guide?

Some people just don't understand: This deck arguably focuses more on the chain of events stemming from the first turn than any other deck in the format. This deck really is about baiting; your opponent has no idea what you are trying to do in the first few turns, and you need to therefore take advantage of his or her lack of knowing by devising your plan as you move along. It will give you the tools of survival late game because you have understood what it means to start a game the appropriate way. This is also critical for games two and three, respectively.

[sroncor1]

So I played in a FNM event and went 2-1. Two notes, I forgot to deside before the tournament began and I had Pyrokinesis in the main instead of the lightning bolts. The other thing is that throughout the week the white cards of the deck continued to be cut down to eventually not part of it at all. I never removed the plateau though since I’m lazing and it was FNM so I said fuck it.

The Deck
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter’s Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Chrome Mox
4SSG
3Pyroblast
4REB
3 Pyrokinesis
2 top
3Figure of Destiny
2 Jaya Ballard
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Goblin Welder
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Mountains
3 Fetchland
4 Plateau

Side
4 Trinisphere
4 Lightning Bolts
1 Pyrokenisis
2 Shattering Spree
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Viashino Heretic
1 Fearie Macabre
1REB

Round 1 vs Merfolk
In the first game my Painter’s Servant walks into a daze on the second turn after I landed a first turn Figure. We trade damage for a while but with an active Vial I am quickly behind in tempo and board position and a Wakethraser is big enough to finish the deal. Game two I play around daze and combo off on my second turn. The third turn again saw the deck do what it does and combo off the third turn with REB backup on the Echoing Truth that was played in response to Grindstone activation.

Round 2 vs a Rock variant
I lost the first two games, but I think it was due to me keeping suspect hands. Both games saw me draw incredible amounts of mana sources. The first game I was able to 3 for 1 him by killing two Bobs and a Hyppie with a Pyrokinesis and I still lost. The Pyrokinesis was hard casted btw. Eventually my early Magus is Vindicated and a couple goyfs hit the board and my life total goes to below 0. Game two he swords a first turn magus and again I draw lots of mana, namely my first two draws were the other Chrome Mox in the deck. Oh well what can you do, I guess I still have to work on hand recognition.

Round 3 vs Landstill(?)
The first game saw me cast a Magus off the City of Traitors and SSG. He tops for like 10 turns and I slowly swing his life total to 0. I think an Imperial Recruiter joins the party sometime, but not sure when. Game two sees him FoW a first turn magus followed by a second turn Trinisphere. He wasn’t too worried about it I guess since as he said he has lots of things that cost three, but it does take away his free counters so I was happy. I follow it up into an Imperial Recruiter and a Magus and he again can not find the basics. He did have a Bob beating me for a bit but again I never really saw what he was playing as I basically locked him out early and fast. He told me after the match that he dropped pyroclasm because he dropped red to make his mana base better. I guess he didn’t realize that as Magus defense it still works great as he can produce red. He also kept in Shackles and took out EE. I tried to tell him that EE is still really strong against the deck, but I think he missed the point that with only two basic islands he was going to get stuck getting shit with the shackles while the EE will stop me from comboing while taking my best aggo creature.

Overall I loved the deck and I really feel as if it can handle any deck. I will not be dropping below 6 REB effects. I really liked Pyrokinesis in the maindeck. Not sure if I will keep it but I will continue to look at. I did have to drop the Ensnaring Bridge from the side but then I decided to say fuck it to Progenitus decks as they suck anyway. While I may have lost to a Rock style deck I have to say they seem very weak for the current meta. In play testing, I have found them to be fairly easy to beat as their mana isn’t the best and the spells cost so much and they are fairly slow.

[comeback]

I think that the three different version of Imperial Painter that could be competitive are:


mono R or RW version that could abuse of Gamble/Enlightened to tutor artifacts you need
Epic painter that control the board with a countertop strategy or just combo rapidly thanks to Lim's Dul and offers a sideboardable plan B
UR version maybe a lil less competitive but this is the version I'm playing just 'cuz I love tutor everything I need



This deck really is about baiting; your opponent has no idea what you are trying to do in the first few turns, and you need to therefore take advantage of his or her lack of knowing by devising your plan as you move along.

That's true and it represent the strategy to adopt in the early game, you are able to understand what your opponent is playing while he will rarely stifles an Imperial Painter or a Trinket Mage and if a combo pieces is already in your hand... :laugh:

Imperial Painter by Comeback

LANDS
1 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
2 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Academy Ruins

CREATURES
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
3 Trinket Mage
3 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Llawan Cephalid Empress

ARTIFACTS
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
2 Grindstone
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Relic of Progenitus

OTHER SPELLS
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
2 Repeal
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast

SIDEBOARD
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Kira Great Glass Spinner
2 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Thorn of Ametyst
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Divert
1 Misdirection

[sroncor1]

I would be interested in what your results have been. I had thought about adding blue since I missed having FoW in the deck I was playing. On first glance though it seems your deck tries to do to much while not doing any of it as well as the other builds. I am interested though as I love the dual tutor effect you have in the deck.

[Michael Keller]

I also wanted to throw out there that the elimination of mana burn helps Imperial Painter alot. It can be quite annoying taking two damage off an Ancient Tomb and a subsequent one loss of life because of mana burn. Similar situation with City of Traitors.

I'm not sure about everyone else's experiences with burn in this deck, but I can't honestly remember the last time I played a game with I.P. and didn't take burn. Interesting.

[comeback]

On first glance though it seems your deck tries to do to much while not doing any of it as well as the other builds.

It's quite true, I've just to manage the game for the combo solution 'cuz Imperial Recruiter & Trinket Mage aren't only tutors, they simply block goyfs, qasali or coatl or let u take cards like Llawan or Engineered.

If u know meta and decklists, u are quickly able to understand that maindeck contain everything u need but in each game your strategy is:


reply to your opponent strategy and beat with stupid creatures
reply to your opponent strategy and combo in mg or lg
just combo asap

Sometimes the strategy plan of your opponent is to lock u so he keeps hands with COTV or a countertop stuff and u have just to tutor the correct creature like shusher or EE, BTW it's not impossible to win thanks to the creatures combo Painter-Llawan or just with a turn 2 magus and some protections that guarantee it in play.

[Michael Keller]

For The Source tournament, I'll be piloting my new version of Imperial Painter. I'll give details through each round (W, L, or D) and how the deck fares along the way.

[DrewliusMaximus]

For The Source tournament, I'll be piloting my new version of Imperial Painter. I'll give details through each round (W, L, or D) and how the deck fares along the way.

Represent yo!

I went a disappointing 1-2 on Sunday after making a few mistakes, so let me share....

I used the following list:

9 Mountain
1 Mire
1 Foothills
8 City/Tomb
3 Mox
4 SSG
4 Magus
4 Recruiter
4 Servant
2 Jaya
1 Shusher
1 Welder
7 Blast
2 Moon
2 Magma Jet
4 Grindstone
3 Top
SB
4 Trinisphere
3 Relic
2 Jitte
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Heretic
1 Tinkerer
1 Shusher

I went 2-1 against White Stax in round 1. First game I think I got the combo, I lost the second game, and beat down for the win in game 3 with something stupid like 2 Recruiters and a Tinkerer. I think my only sideboarding was -3 Blasts, +1 Tinkerer, +1 Heretic, +1 Shusher. In game 3, Magma Jet was key because I killed Exalted Angel before it could morph.

Round 2 was against RGW Zoo, which is a matchup that I have been trying different things with to improve. I lost game 1 after a first turn Magus was killed, and then my next 2 creatures were killed, and his dudes attacked, and I hate Zoo. In game 2, since I was on the draw I decided to try something new against my better judgement and boarded in 4 Trinispheres along with 3 Pyrokinesis and 3 Relics, taking out 2 Blood Moon, 3 Top, 2 Blast, and Shusher. I had already thought about how this is a bad idea, but I wanted to try and lock him out of plays for a few turns and combo for the win. What ended up happening was that I got a Trinisphere in my first 7 but my only land was a City. After mulling to 5, I had a slightly playable hand with 2 lands, Pyrokinesis, and 2 creatures. I played Welder turn 1, drew into Trinisphere turn 2, but only had 2 mountain down. I drew a land and Pyro'd his Nactl before playing Trinisphere. But he got his 3rd land and dropped Goyf, and I died. I know some people have said they liked Trinisphere against Zoo and other aggro decks, but in my opinion, it SUCKS. And I'm not just saying this from one experience. Of course Trinisphere was not my only mistake here. Boarding out Moons was a bad idea, and keeping the combo plan was also not good. As of now, I think the best way to approach Zoo is to outlast them, and/or disrupt them with Moon. If I could do it over again, I would have boarded something like -4 Grindstone, -3 Blast, -1 Shusher, +3 Relic, +3 Pyrokinesis, +2 Jitte. I think Tops and Relics would have really helped put pressure on him to keep up the gas (since he didn't run Null Rod).

Round 3 was against Aggro Loam. I won game 1 with a turn 3 combo. I boarded -3 Blast, -2 Moon, -3 Top, -1 Welder, +3 Relic, +3 Pyrokinesis, +1 Heretic, +1 Tinkerer, +1 Shusher. Game 2 I was in control with Servant, Jaya, and Grindstone in hand, but he had Chalice out for 1. I made the impatient play and used Jaya to kill the Chalice on my turn so I could play Grindstone and win the next turn. The problem, is that he got a third land, and was able to Wish for Shattering Spree and killed the Servant. Afterwards, Crushers came down and got big before Jaya could kill them, and killed me. With him at low land, I should have used Jaya to kill his mana. I'll have to remind myself that Servant + Jaya can be more surefire (but prolonged) win even if the combo is available. Then I lost game 3 after keeping an iffy hand that had 2 Blasts (with no Servant), Pyrokinesis, 2 lands, Welder and Shusher. I proceeded to draw my other 2 Blasts on consecutive turns and Crushers and/or Goyf killed me (I can't remember).

[DrewliusMaximus]

I went a disappointing 1-2 (drop) this weekend with this list:

9 Mountain
1 Mire
1 Foothills
8 Tomb/City
3 Mox
4 SSG
4 Recruiter
4 Magus
4 Servant
2 Jaya
1 Welder
1 Shusher
1 Figure of Distiny
2 Blood Moon
6 Blast
2 Magma Jet
4 Grindstone
3 Top
SB
4 Trinisphere
3 Relic
2 Jitte
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Shusher
1 Heretic
1 Tinkerer

Round 1: Goyf Sligh (0-2) - I lost the first game on the fourth turn right before I was about to combo off. I boarded -4 Grindstone, -3 Blast, -1 Shusher, +3 Relic, +2 Jitte, +3 Pyrokinesis. I didn't side out Moon because I thought it might have been RGW Zoo. I lost game 2 after playing a Magus and Figure which just chump blocked while I used top to try and find a Relic to shrink his Goyf. Pyrokinesis helped me remove every creature except Goyf, and I thought I could last a few turns until he played/equipped a Jitte.

Round 2: Deadguy (2-0) - Game 1 got a first turn Moon which shut off every land he played for the first few turns, and then I Servant / Blasted the only Swamp he played. I boarded -1 Shusher, -2 Blast, +3 Pyrokinesis. I thought he was playing with Bob and not Tombstalker, so I didn't board in Relic. Game 2 he Thoughtsiezed first turn for a Servant, and immediately Extirpated it. He also played a Needle naming Top. But I got Magus down, and then Jaya. I also played a Recruiter for Figure of Destiny. He then played Tombstalker and attacked on his next turn. I drew the land I needed though to make Figure a 4/4 and attacked for 8, slanting the race in my favor. He played another Needle naming Figure, and held his Stalker back to block. Fortunately for me, he didn't draw another creature, and I was able to burn with Jaya for the win. We talked after about how he should have named Jaya with the first Needle.

Round 3: UGB Orb/Gro (0-2) - Game 1 I kept a hand with 5 lands, and 2 creatures thinking that I could draw into some business within the next 2 turns. Unfortunately, I drew only lands for 4 straight turns...loss. I think I boarded -4 Grindstone, +3 Relic, +1 Heretic. I can't remember how game 2 started, but I know I Recruited a Magus but couldn't play it before he played Werebear (with Threshold) using his Tropical Island. I played the Magus anyway, and then he played Orb. I drew Figure and had Top but the Orb shut me down, and Werebear beat me to 0. I haven't played against this deck enough so I'm sure I screwed up the plays, but he definitely was one step ahead in the tempo this whole game.

So I'm still not sure what to do against Zoo-ish Aggro. I think going down to 6 Blasts is good since there are more non-blue decks around these days, but the MD probably needs a little modification to deal with an aggro-heavy metagame.

[Esper3k]

You can always run Firespout against Zoo, but you run the problem that Goblins does - Spout is going to also kill all your guys, so you're going to really have to play Control if you're going to use it.

Secondly, Firespout doesn't kill Thoctars or Tarmogoyfs (usually), but it will wipe out all the Kird Apes, Wild Nacatls, Pridemages, and Grim Lavamancers, which is a sizable chunk of their force. If you have like a Magma Jet to follow up, you can take out a Thoctar or Goyf as well usually.

It doesn't help you deal with the problem though that all of their removal kills all your guys (Lavamancer is especially brutal on everyone but the Painter's Servant itself).

[GGoober]

The more I think about it, the more I think Imperial Painter's matchup against Zoo is easily the worst. At least against Goblins, a well-timed Pyrokinesis kills off 1,2 toughness dudes. Zoo has an annoying toughness of 4 and 5 everywhere. Nacatls are 3, which is within Firespout, but Firespout is weak for your plans.

This is what I suggest, running some extinction effect, that kills all green creatures. That way, you get rid of Qasali, Goyf, Thoctars, Nacatls while leaving Apes and Lavamancers. Still doesn't solve the problem since they have burn against your Painter, and sadly, Helix, Bolt, Blast all hit his 3 toughness.

It's a super tough matchup I would assume, and Redblasts does nothing. You said Trinisphere is bad, but I think it's still your only chance on G2, mulling and going T1 Trinisphere, and hopefully slow them down. Maybe even Sphere of Resistance is worth considering.

Or just run Landstill and win the aggro matchup :)

[comeback]

I have a lot of problems to win against zoo-ish in my :u: :r: version, btw after some test I've decided to side in/out the following cards:

OUT

1x Vexing Shusher
2x Magus of the Moon
1x Pithing Needle
1x Brainstorm


IN

1x Kira, the Glass Spinner
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Divert

[Esper3k]

With your blue splash, you also have the option of just running a bunch of red hate cards like Chill, BEB, etc.

In my experience, Zoo decks these days run a really heavy red/burn package (Lightning Bolt, Lavamancer, Kird Ape, Lightning Helix, Chain Lightning, Wooly Thoctar), so those spells should theoretically work well against them.

Blue also gives you the Propaganda option, which makes it tough for them to attack you in large numbers and gives you time to set up your combo.

Again though, Propaganda is only going to stall them, it won't actually protect your Painter from being burned out the way Chill or BEB can.

[DrewliusMaximus]

You can always run Firespout against Zoo, but you run the problem that Goblins does - Spout is going to also kill all your guys, so you're going to really have to play Control if you're going to use it.

I thought about this, but in addition to the fact that it kills my guys too, they can too easily play around it, and resetting the board doesn't help me if they can just drop another cheap big creature that puts me right back on the defensive. I'd rather burn their creatures directly so they have to spend their resources to kill my guys.


This is what I suggest, running some extinction effect, that kills all green creatures.

That would be cool, but I don't know of one that's red.


It's a super tough matchup I would assume, and Redblasts does nothing. You said Trinisphere is bad, but I think it's still your only chance on G2, mulling and going T1 Trinisphere, and hopefully slow them down. Maybe even Sphere of Resistance is worth considering.

My main problem with 3sphere against fast aggro besides Burn is that even if you drop it first turn, if they get to 3 mana they can just start dropping big creatures. I haven't tested this too many times, but from the few times I have, the tempo gain I might get in the first 2 turns disappears as long as they get a 3rd land, and I find myself on the defensive if I can't combo out by turn 4.


Or just run Landstill and win the aggro matchup :)

I was counting on you to do this Chris...:)


With your blue splash, you also have the option of just running a bunch of red hate cards like Chill, BEB, etc.

I agree that if you run blue, these sorts of cards might be a really good option.

What I'm going to do with my mono-red is go back to one of my older builds. I actually only played it once, but got 1st with it, so I'm not exactly sure why I changed it so much. Back then, I ran more burn MD to handle "random aggro", but since aggro isn't so random anymore, I'm thinking it might be a good call. This was the old MD.

9 Mountain
1 Mire
1 Foothills
8 City/Tomb
3 Mox
4 SSG
4 Recruiter
4 Magus
4 Servant
3 Jaya
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Magma Jet
6 Blast
3 Top
4 Grindstone

And I would have a SB like this possibly:
4 Trinisphere
4 Relic
2 Blood Moon
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Shusher
1 Heretic

The 3 Lightning Bolts, 3 Jets, and 3 Jayas in the MD would allow for a pretty decent removal approach in game 1 that does not need Servant to be alive. Also, I am definitely going back to 4 Relics in the SB. I think that if I am not running Goyf, then I need 4 of these. Also, like you said Jeff, Lavamancer is bad for me, so I really need to deny the graveyard as a resource. Against RGW Zoo I could board in:

+2 Moon, +2 Pyrokinesis, +4 Relic

...and board out:

-4 Blast, and either -4 Grindstone or -1 Grindstone and -3 Top? maybe I can board out 2 Magus also?

[GGoober]

To be honest, I would board out Top. And keep the Grindstones if you still run gamble. Top is too slow against Zoo. I'm pondering on 2 Tops in Landstill, which is amazing, but if our meta is really zoo-infested, Top is too slow and I would rather have business spells to cast everyturn.

I'm not sure how consistent Imperial Painter is in getting out the combo, but if it's VERY consistent, I like 3Sphere protection into Painter Grindstone combo. But I agree that if they hit 3 mana, you're in risk of burn, but I think aside from that, you really slow them down from Turn 1 Nactal, Turn 2 Nactl Bolt etc. You force them to go Turn 3 Bolt, then drop a creature. Although I must say that boarding MU is bad for you. Maybe a RW Imperial list can play Absolute Law, which is a house against burn, goblins and Zoo i.e. leaving your Painters alive aside from StPs/Paths.

I would probably board out Magus, since they're really bad against Zoo. Blood Moon is better, so board out Magus and maybe put in disruption. I think it's time to bring in the old list Drew. Zoo's unchecked in our meta now. It's winning more than ANT lol in a non-blue environment. Imagine how bad that situation is when ANT is supposed to cakewalk a non-blue environment but Zoo is bringing in T2/T4 for more than 3 weeks in a row.

[[reptiLe]]

With your blue splash, you also have the option of just running a bunch of red hate cards like Chill, BEB, etc.

chiLL kiLLs you too... not a good idea imho.

[Carabas]

Would Powder Keg be a reasonable option in monored against zoo? It kills your painters at 2 and your grindstones at 1, but otherwise you can get away unscathed, as the rest of your guys are 3cc

[GGoober]

DUH, forgot about Keg. Keg's a house. You have 1 MD Welder so it's not a problem if you're forced to blow up Stones or Painter. Keg is good, might be slow if not landed Turn 1/2, but it's good if you play the original list with bolts and jets to slow them down. Also, board in Jittes against theirs, or you'll hit yourself for losing to a lone Kird Ape and if they don't draw Jitte, then you can swing with yours and gain life while comboing out.

[Esper3k]

I would board Jaya out against Zoo. She's pretty much something you never want to draw against Zoo since she takes a turn to get active (so she will pretty much always die before she gets to do anything) as well as can't really block anything in Zoo.

Against Zoo, I like Lightning Bolt, but don't like Magma Jet. Other than killing a Lavamancer or a Pridemage, you're really not going to actually kill anything in the deck (other than the very rare T1 2/2 Nacatl).

Keg is better, but again, you do run many things in the came CMC as Zoo too, so you have to be careful when using it.

[DrewliusMaximus]

I have used Kegs in the SB before, but the problem I had was that it was a little too slow. Sometimes the turns it took to generate counters made it ineffective, and also everyone boards in artifact hate against IP, so it could just be destroyed.

I agree that Jaya is not the greatest vs. something as fast as Zoo, and I have been happy for a while only running 2. So, that means I can either put 1 Shusher back in the MD and have an open slot in the SB, or put something totally different in the MD.

Re: the Jets, I know that they don't kill any Zoo creatures on their own, but they can combine with a blocker or other burn spell, and they will kill a Nacatl if Blood Moon has taken away a color or 2. Mainly, they are there for general use, aside from Zoo, so that I have a slightly diversified casting cost (get around a Chalice for example), scry away useless cards (especially in combination with Top), and kill many other relevant creatures like Bob, Goblins, etc. And against Zoo, even if I have to combine a Jet with a chump-blocker to kill a creature, scrying can ensure that I follow up with a business spell. That said, maybe maxing out the Lightning Bolt count is a good idea.

As far as other anti-Zoo cards...I could add another Blood Moon to the SB, add another Pyrokinesis to the SB, or try a Duplicant. Other thoughts?

[scrumdogg]

Finally finished my set of Recruiters so I can try & build a version of this deck. However, New England is becoming infested with Zoo...I'm going to be trying to splash colors to make the deck more resilient. Thoughts on some of the following options?

Green:
makes Shusher easier to cast
some Llurgoyf critter as an alternate finisher
Grip against the stupid omni-present Counter-Top
Dense Foliage to protect the Painter
Eternal Witness to get back pieces

Blue:
gives BEB & Hydroblast and/or Chill & Propaganda out of the SB
MD Trinket Mage fetches Grindstone & is fetchable via Recruiter, giving many more early configurations that get you both combo pieces
Stifle & Trickbind can slow down many decks (and a slow Zoo deck with a crippled manabase is a sad Zoo deck...) might be worth going heavy on these & Wastelands to have the ability to set up the normal control game this deck can play with a Painter & Jaya
also gives the possibility of Stifle-Nought...
means Academy Ruins can be used for retrieval of combo pieces & hate such as EE, Crypt etc

White:
Absolute Law - burn what?
Enlightened Tutor - don't care about CA if I win next turn...
Moat - although it would probably be too slow versus many of the decks it would be needed for
Lightning Helix - if we run burn, on which point I'm not convinced, why not run 3 damage burn that keeps us alive?
various white effects that return artifacts to hand...
efficient removal that should be better than burn in this deck
Chant/Silence/Abeyance as options versus combo & to force through pieces

Black:
ummmm, not seeing many things that aren't done better in another color...

The two versions that excite me most are RU with a Stifle-Nought, heavy LD option & the ability to SB into 8 Blue Blasts and the RW version with E. Tutor, heavy Chant effects & LEDs for the '1 big turn win' with recursion & Absolute Law out of the board. Step one, finalizing decklists & then on to testing.

[Esper3k]

Just to note, I think Absolute Law is a really bad card for this deck to play as a large strategy of the deck is dropping the Painter down naming Blue and using REB's. REB = very sad when everyone is Prot Red...

In general, I like the blue splash, although you could conceivably splash both Blue and White and get your Red/White/Blue deck :)

[scrumdogg]

Just to note, I think Absolute Law is a really bad card for this deck to play as a large strategy of the deck is dropping the Painter down naming Blue and using REB's. REB = very sad when everyone is Prot Red...

In general, I like the blue splash, although you could conceivably splash both Blue and White and get your Red/White/Blue deck :)

RWU Imperial America :cool: not only is trying to conceive a manabase giving me a cross-eyed migraine but don't think I can possibly fit everything in that I would want! Having enough trouble with that with the 2-color versions... That is a good point on the REBS, except that they still function just fine as counterspells (versus blue decks) and if they can't control my combo, they should just lose... And lose quickly if I add tutoring to summon up the missing link, while still leaving my critters able to block all day if I call red with Painter (which would incidentally also stop Qasali & Grip from screwing with the combo).

[DrewliusMaximus]

I know Hollywood has a RW list that he's been playing.

I could see the Absolute Law thing out of the SB maybe being ok if you name "red" with Painter. You'd probably board out Blasts. Your Servant would be protected from Quasali and Grip, but of course the Absolute Law would probably get destroyed by them instead. But without either of those cards, it's true that Zoo won't be able to touch the scarecrow. You would just have to combo out really quickly because Zoo's creatures would now be unblockable.

Scrumdogg, are you trying to keep Ancient Tombs in your color-splashed manabase?

[Michael Keller]

Thus far in the Source tournament, I am 2-0-0 with R/w Imperial Painter. Hell, I'll even post my list because I don't really care either way. It's really no secret what I play:

//0cc
[3x] Chrome Mox

//1cc
[4x] Figure of Destiny
[4x] Red Elemental Blast
[4x] Grindstone
[4x] Lightning Bolt
[4x] Pyroblast

//2cc
[4x] Painter's Servant

//3cc
[4x] Imperial Recruiter
[4x] Simian Spirit Guide
[4x] Magus of the Moon
[2x] Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
[1x] Viashino Heretic

//Land
[6x] Mountain
[4x] Plateau
[4x] Ancient Tomb
[4x] City of Traitors

//Sideboard
[4x] Active Volcano
[4x] Trinisphere
[4x] Faerie Macabre
[3x] Pyrokinesis

I wanted to bring this list forward right after at least the second round ended so we can take a look what is working best in a generic sense. I've been really happy with this list because it has a very good sideboard approach to some of the most powerful decks in the format.

Mount Vesuvius Erupts

I've decided to play an extra four "Blast" effects in the sideboard, a la Active Volcano. So far, I have to say I've been very pleased. It's funny: They were originally in the very first list I had ever seen, and I even played a few. It's a highly underrated addition to the sideboard because of the Merfolk match. You'd think it would be in your favor with all the blue hosing effects you supply, but it doesn't work that way. Merfolk are very resilient and can pose a huge threat to this deck if not dealt with properly. Active Volcano really can throw an opponent off when he least expects it. It also acts like a pseudo-Recoil, with an end-of-turn bounce effect that can not only set your opponent back a turn, but make them discard a card in the early goings.

Four Faerie Macabre...What?!?

Truth is: I really underestimated this card when I first ran this deck. I used to only play two or three and called it sufficient. But, to my own surprise, I needed more. I really didn't always want to Imperial Recruiter for one, so increasing my chances plucking one or in the opening seven was critical in stopping decks like Ichorid and the sort. In testing, he has been a priceless asset that just shocks an opponent when they think you have absolutely nothing in your hand. They (the graveyard-toting opponent) expect you to pass the turn with nothing to do. But the Faeries are critical in that match. Very critical.

Finding Our Destiny

After I began thinking about replacements for the Sword of Light and Shadow slots, I began wondering if there was possibly a creature that could compensate. After all, there really was a distinct issue when it came to dealing with decks toting bigger baddies than my own. So, I decided to give a relative newcomer a try. Boy, did he light up the world here. He shines so much in the most intricate ways. Here, you have a simplistic one-drop for either a red or white source. He then continues getting bigger at a scorching pace, leaving all smaller creatures before him dead in his path. The most important thing to note is his 4/4 development; most Goyfs I've dealt with that early typically sit at 3/4. He can get in there a few times before you secure the board with lock or combo components. He also soaks up early removal; compensating for the arrival of the Servant. A truly magnificent inclusion that really only makes the deck better.

So, Why Plateau and No "non-Hybrid" White Spells?

You know, I was asking myself this very question before. Originally, before changes were made, I included Enlightened Tutor and Hannah's Custody in my list. I even had one single Radiant's Dragoons (http://findmagiccards.com/GF/USC/MTGC/UL/RADZONS1.jpeg) in the board as well (including some prototype lists than never made it public). The Plateaus are basically there currently for "sketch" purposes until I decide what they are used for. It's almost a foregone conclusion you can expect me to have some white cards in the board; cards like Dragoons, Custody, and the sort. Right now the Plateaus are essentially "on tilt".

The Exorcist II: The Viashino Heretic

When thinking about silver bullets for the main, I really didn't want to overdo it with all the cool and exotic things you can get with Recruiter because it just waters down the deck. I kept it simple with a Heretic, who ironically has been one of the most critical components in Imperial Painter thus far. I've had him in my main for quite some time, but he was needed now more than ever with the inclusion of Figure of Destiny to combat Chalice of the Void. I've gone to get this guy so many times with Recruiter, I may even up the count to two.

So, basically what I did is use the Source tournament as a gauge to see where the evolution of my build has gone, and more importantly, where it is going. Albeit a strong start at 2-0-0, I can still find room for improvement based on the matches I've had to contend with. I'll make sure a written report is issued when the tournament is over, out of respect for my opponents. Hopefully, the winning trend will hold up.

[DrewliusMaximus]

I played the weekend before last at a small tournament in Garland, and then this past weekend back in Houston. Here's a report for both.

I have been trying some different things to help with the Zoo matchup and ended up coming up with slightly more burn in the MD and a mana-denial strategy out of the SB. A brief disclaimer - I know I have written before about how I didn't like Trinisphere because it can backfire on you. But I took my friend Chris's advice that it might be our best chance against something like Zoo and added Pillage to the SB to complement it and Blood Moon so that I could just try and keep Zoo from playing Magic at all. Here's the list I used the last two weeks:

10 Mountain
1 Mire
1 Foothills
4 Tomb
3 City
3 Mox
4 SSG
4 Magus
4 Recruiter
4 Servant
2 Jaya
1 Shusher
7 Blast
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Magma Jet
3 Top
4 Grindstone
SB
4 Trinisphere
3 Relic
3 Blood Moon
3 Pillage
2 Pyrokinesis

I replaced 1 City with a Mountain because I was tired of having City as a starting land and I wanted a better chance at getting double red. While the likelihood of a first-turn Trinisphere or Moon is less, with the Bolts/Blasts, I have found that you can usually answer a first turn spell and then play Trinisphere/Blood Moon second turn and it works just fine.

Tournament in Garland....

Round 1 - GW Aggro: Game 1, I kept a hand with a mountain and 1 SSG as the lands, but had a Top, Servant, Grindstone, and Bolt. I went first, played the mountain and Top, and passed. He played a Birds. I drew something other than a land, Bolted the Bird, and passed. He played another land and some creature. I used Top during the upkeep, and found no land, and passed the turn. He played Troll Ascetic, and attacked with his other creature. I then decided to use SSG to play the Servant. He then played something else and attacked. I decided to play the Grindstone on my turn instead of using Top. He attacks on his turn and of course I am getting low on life. I use Top during the upkeep and find City, which I keep until my next turn just in case he has Wasteland or something. He attacks and gets me down to like 4, and then I play City and combo off. I board in 2 Pyrokinesis, and 3 Relics (I'm assuming he has Goyf even though I didn't see it) taking out 3 Blasts, 1 Grindstone, and 1 Shusher. I lose Games 2 and 3 horribly because he has an insane amount of artifact destruction each time and a Troll Ascetic that gets enchanted or equipped.

Round 2 - Cascade Hypergenesis: I think I go first game 1 and play a first turn Magus. He plays a land I don't recognize that would have been able to tap for any color. I then play Servant and pass the turn. He plays another land and passes to me. I then play a third land and Grindstone. On his third turn he plays his cascade spell, and since I have not seen this before, I have to ask what's going on. So he hits Hypergenesis and plays Akroma and the rest of his hand, and I play my Recruiter and the second Servant he tutored up, but none of that mattered because I won the next turn. I wasn't sure what to board in, so I just got Relics and took out Bolts and Shusher. I can't remember exactly how game 2 started, but he cascaded right after I played Servant with a hand full of nasty big dudes. Unfortunately for him, he had sided in 1 Pithing Needle and hit that instead of Hypergenesis. He named Grindstone, but I played Jaya and ended up killing his lands and beating for the win.

Round 3 - Mono Black Control: Game 1 was long and crazy. He discards some of my stuff, while I resolve a Top and remove some his creatures with burn. He ends up attacking me down to 1 and playing a Lich's Mirror (crazy), but I am able to get out Servant and Grindstone to combo off and force him to reset. On his first turn after the reset, he gets a miracle starting hand with Dark Ritual that let's him kill my Servant. I follow with a Magus of the Moon. He ends up not playing a spell for several turns while I keep dropping creatures and beating with 2/2's. I finally get him to 3 and Bolt for the win. Game 2 I get a sweet draw and combo on turn 3 with Blast support.

Top 4 - UGWB Countertop: I don't really remember how these games went exactly, but Magus and/or Moon won them both I think.

Finals - Charbelcher: Game 1 I get out a Servant early with a Blast in hand, and keep piling on creatures as he plays 2 LED's and a Petal. When he starts to go off on turn 3 or 4, I let him build up and decide to wait to counter Charbelcher but he Empties the Warrens instead for 10 dudes. Luckily, he has taken enough damage, I have enough guys, and I beat for the win. I board in Trinisphere, Pyrokinesis and Pillage, taking out Tops, Magus, ShusherGame 2 I keep a hand with 3 Mountains, a Servant and Grindstone and decide I'll settle on giving him a 3 turn clock even though he is on the play and it works. I win.

Tournament yesterday in Houston...

Round 1 - RGW Zoo (here's the moment of truth): Game 1 he is on the play but has to mull to 5. I have a hand with Top, Servant, Blast, Grindstone, Magma Jet, Mountain and SSG. He plays a turn 1 un-pumped Ape and I Magma Jet him on my turn seeing another Mountain and City with the scry, which I keep on top. I can't remember what he plays on his second turn, but I play Top and Grindstone. He drops a Thoctar I thin on turn 3, and I decide to play slowly so I can try and find a second Blast with Top before I put Servant on the board. Luckily I find it, and combo out on like turn 5 or 6. I board in the resource denial plan, putting my entire sideboard in, and taking out Shusher, 2 Grindstone, 3 Top, 4 Magus, 5 Blast. He starts without playing a creature, and I start with a Relic. He then plays a second land (both duals), and does nothing. I then play a Tomb, and a second turn Trinisphere. In hindsight, I probably should have played the Blood Moon in my hand instead since he could have just Gripped the Trinisphere with a third land. But he does not draw a third land on his third turn, so he's locked out. I then play Blood Moon, which ends up cutting off his colors. The game is slow from here. On my next 3 turns, I play a second Trinisphere, a Grindstone, and then Recruit for a Sevant, which is the second one in my hand. I don't have 6 mana out, and I want to wait so I can play both Servants at once and force him to kill both. While waiting I play a second Blood Moon and attack him for 1 a few times, all while keeping his graveyard empty. Finally, I get my 6th mana, play both Servants, and pass the turn. At EOT he pays 3 and sac's 2 of his 4 lands to Fireblast 1 Servant. He needs to topdeck a land to kill me second one, but does not, and I win. Hooray! I beat Zoo. I must say though that even with good draws I needed for him to get some bad luck. We played another post-board game for fun and he won handily with Thoctar out under my Trinisphere. Blood Moon is much better against them than Trinisphere.

Round 2 - BG Land Destruction Control: This was our friend's homebrew deck with lots of acceleration into lots of land destruction and some Hypnotics and Terravores for beatdown. Game 1 I was able to get Top out early and counter some of his crucial spells with a Servant and Blasts. The game took a while but Jaya ended up burning for the win. Since I saw he had Gaea's Blessing, I sided out Grindstones, Shusher and boarded in Relics and Pyrokinesis. Game 2 he destroyed more lands early on but I was able to play a Servant and keep at least 2 lands while I beat for the win. One crucial play here was being able to Pyrokinesis his Terravore while it was still a 4/4.

Round 3 - RG Goblins: Game 1 I was on the draw I think but had a decent hand with the combo. I played turn Servant after he played a Lackey, and turn 2 Grindstone, but he had second turn Hooligan to kill my Servant, and dropped something scary with Lackey (can't remember what). I was able to Recruit a second Servant, and had Chrome Mox + red card that gave me 5 mana on the next turn to play Servant and combo off. Unfortunately he had too much by then and attacked with double hasted Piledriver and like 4 ot 5 other Goblins that turn. I boarded out 7 Blasts and a Shusher, and boarded in Pyrokinesis, Pillage, and 3 Trinisphere. I had a hand with first turn Magus or Trinisphere. Having not played Goblins in a while (or seen Wasteland at all for that matter), I made the stupid mistake of playing the turn 1 Trinisphere. He then Wasted my Tomb, and while I had a second land in hand, I did not draw another for 5 turns at least. Meanwhile, he dropped lands every turn and his first actual play was a Siege-Gang Commander. I conceded soon thereafter.

Although I was 2-1 in the Houston tourney, I was paired down after round 1 so I didn't make Top 4. Still, I was happy enough beating Zoo.

So, with only a few games using the new list, I'm pretty happy with it. I like the idea that I can board in an entire strategy that utilizes the deck's explosive manabase, but time will tell how effective it really is. Also, it is still apparent that Trinisphere can backfire, but I blame myself for the stupid play this time.

[Michael Keller]

Nice work, Drewlius. I'm glad to see those changes working for you. Sometimes opening with a City can be tiresome, especially if it is one of your only lands.

As for me; I'm currently 3-1 in the Source tournament with my version of Imperial Painter. Once it is over, I'll be sure to post a report.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Thanks man. I finally built Dreadstill as a second Legacy deck but I just can't stop playing Imperial Painter. Well done on your results so far too Hollywood. I didn't realize the Source tourney took so damn long, but good luck the rest of the way.

[Michael Keller]

Right now I'm currently enjoying the fruits of Active Volcano's labor in the sideboard. It's just so ghetto; I love it.

Additionally, I was going to mention the lack of several noticeable cards missing from my sideboard: Anarchy and Vexing Shusher. No matter how the deck turns out, I'm always adjusting my board. I was thinking about the arbitrary number of heavy blue decks I would end of facing in the tournament, and I was right.

I've been keeping Zoo in the back of my mind and wondering how good this makeshift sideboard is against it. Figure of Destiny has been crucial in some really close games. With all that extra land laying around, he can get to be 4/4 in a hurry.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Yeah, I was going to ask how the full set of Figures was working? What was your loss against?

[GGoober]

Good report Drew. I like the Pillage plan against Zoo. On paper it seems a little slow, but maybe in real life it works. Did all of us get paired down? Because I was paired down as well, and I believe Jeff was as well. I also went 2-1 missing the finals even though I was confident with my matches aside from Imperial Painter and combo,

[Michael Keller]

Good report Drew. I like the Pillage plan against Zoo. On paper it seems a little slow, but maybe in real life it works. Did all of us get paired down? Because I was paired down as well, and I believe Jeff was as well. I also went 2-1 missing the finals even though I was confident with my matches aside from Imperial Painter and combo,

I was under the impression Pillage was deemed obsolete here. Surely we can find a better solution, like more Heretic perhaps. Remember it's a good idea to avoid one and double-red whenever possible. It looks easy to get, but with City, it isn't. Best bet there is to have Magus on board.

Heretic deals damage and knocks off artifacts, while being able to be tutored by Imperial Recruiter.

[DrewliusMaximus]

I'm trying Pillage because it can destroy lands. It's true that double red is not preferable (although by replacing a City with a mountain I have at least given myself better chances) and that it might be too slow. But Pillage satisfies the anti-artifact need while also complementing the Trinisphere/Blood Moon strategy. Not only can you have plays like:

Turn 1 Trinisphere, turn 2 Pillage a land,

...but more frequently you can do things like:

Turn 1 use Bolt/Jet/Blast to answer a threat, turn 2 Blood Moon, turn 3 Pillage the basic land they fetched on turn 1.

So with Pillage you can make Blood Moon a lock even if they have already fetched a basic, or played a Vial. At the same time, you can destroy a Jitte without having to wait a turn for Heretic to come online (which is many times too slow since Jitte can just kill the Heretic).

I'm not saying that I am totally convinced that Pillage is great and definitely worth the slots. But I will say that I have wanted anti-artifact cards that don't have summoning sickness, and that increasing pressure on the manabase of a deck like Zoo seems worthy of testing.

[GGoober]

Drew, how good is it to do a 2/2 split of Magus and Bloodmoon in the MD? At least to the Landstill player, a Magus isn't all that scary when I can possibly float one-white and StP it while Bloodmoon requires me to fetch 2 basics prior to be able to EE@3 (red from nonbasic moon effects). Bloodmoon is a lot harder to battle against, not to mention that if you run Pillage to complement, then you'd really screw the Landstill player off his basics to EE@3, forcing me to FOW Bloodmoon or risk losing games.

I know that from playing and playing against Dragonstompy. Magus is golden when it gets through since he beats but there're much more answers to him than Bloodmoon, especially against Zoo. I think if you resolve Bloodmoon, they can't grip or pridemage it at least if you keep them off basics fast. Then the only spell you fear is Lightning Bolt and Fireblast, which you have REBs to protect painter, or potentially play out your Jitte and protect it. I believe all they can play is 1/1 Kird Ape and Lavamancer and Bolts in the deck, so you really nullify them out. I doubt Zoo has an out to BloodMoon but playing Magus gives them a chance to go out, much more than the Landstill player can since they have StP AND Bolts.

I think if I were to play against Zoo with this deck. I'd board in 2-3 Pyrokinesis, 3-4 Bloodmoons, board out 2-3 Magus (leave one tutorable at least), and board out a little here and there (probably artifact hate) and get in 2 Jittes. Mull agressively for either turn 1 3Sphere or Turn 1/2 bloodmoon. It's fine to resolve Turn 2 Moon against them since Moon shrinks Ape/Cat and if you have Pillage, you can keep the basic that they fetched (I think Zoo runs only 1-2 basics, and I know Dan runs more but optimized Zoo lists run close to no basics). After that, you should have Pyrokinesis to deal with 1/1 Lavamancer/Apes/Cats and Jitte to protect Painter or gain some life back. Get Painter online and protect him with blasts.

I just think Magus is a little weak against Zoo since he doesn't really stick unless your opponent is unlucky. Landstill player (n00b Imperial Recruiter) advice from me :P

[DrewliusMaximus]

Hmmm. That's an interesting thought Chris. It's definitely true that there are less answers for Moon than Magus. I think the justification thus far for 4 Magus MD is that he is always a body at least, so against decks that aren't affected much by Moon effects he isn't a totally dead card. For a while I was playing 2-3 MD Moons in addition to the 4 Magus, but not instead of.

While matchups like Goblins get worse, I guess it's possible that the default could be Moons, and Magi could be in the SB. I can't tell you though how many times Magus beats have won me games.

Oh, and that's crazy if Jeff was paired down too. I think something got messed up after that first round.

[Esper3k]

I didn't get paired down, I lost both my first two rounds :)

From playing Dragon Stompy, I think while it's very situational, in general the Magus's are better just because they give you a win condition on top of screwing a lot of decks over.

Blood Moon will be better against certain decks like Zoo, but overall I think Magus is considerably stronger.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Well, from now on Jeff, when you lose, we're going to just say you got "paired down".

As far as the Magus vs Moon thing, I think you have to start with the 4 Magi as the default and go from there. With those 4 and an explosive manabase, you always have to potential for a first or second turn Moon effect (that can attack), but if you happen to draw one later when the opponent has already established a solid foundation of basic lands, at least it's a warm body.

[Michael Keller]

Well, from now on Jeff, when you lose, we're going to just say you got "paired down".

As far as the Magus vs Moon thing, I think you have to start with the 4 Magi as the default and go from there. With those 4 and an explosive manabase, you always have to potential for a first or second turn Moon effect (that can attack), but if you happen to draw one later when the opponent has already established a solid foundation of basic lands, at least it's a warm body.

This is essentially what makes Magus more effective than Blood Moon. It is also important to note that players are capable of floating that dreaded white mana in response to playing Magus. Blood Moon, however, doesn't give your opponent that opportunity. What does make Magus more effective is he single-handedly shuts an opponent down early and dwindles their life to nothing. In the meantime, you are able to build your offense while they are incapable of doing anything. The same cannot be said for Blood Moon.

Being able to shut an opponent down is an effective strategy this way. If you opt to play both Blood Moon and Magus, I recommend a solid 4-2 split.

[scrumdogg]

Question I've been meaning to ask you Mike, in the last list that you posted there were 4 Plateaus....and zero white cards that weren't Figure of Destiny MB or SB. Was there a last minute audible away from a white card or what? Why would Plateau be better than regular Mountains at that point? Also, how is the tourney going at this point? The list still doing what you want it to do? General question to everyone, has Vexing Shusher been tested at all? I'm anticipating a couple of tournaments heavy in both Counter-Top and general permission.

[Michael Keller]

Question I've been meaning to ask you Mike, in the last list that you posted there were 4 Plateaus....and zero white cards that weren't Figure of Destiny MB or SB. Was there a last minute audible away from a white card or what? Why would Plateau be better than regular Mountains at that point? Also, how is the tourney going at this point? The list still doing what you want it to do? General question to everyone, has Vexing Shusher been tested at all? I'm anticipating a couple of tournaments heavy in both Counter-Top and general permission.

I just earned 4-1 and it appears as though a serious shoe-in to the Top 8.

As far as the white cards go, since entering the tournament, I will probably end up going back to mono-R unless something catches my eye. As I stated before, I kind of got stuck playing the list at the last moment so I never really got the chance to add anything white to the main. There were white cards, yes, but the list changed at the very last moment. I guess it hasn't mattered all that much - even though they do not belong in that list.

So basically, -4 Plateau and +4 Mountain.

So far.

[beastman]

Question I've been meaning to ask you Mike, in the last list that you posted there were 4 Plateaus....and zero white cards that weren't Figure of Destiny MB or SB. Was there a last minute audible away from a white card or what? Why would Plateau be better than regular Mountains at that point? Also, how is the tourney going at this point? The list still doing what you want it to do? General question to everyone, has Vexing Shusher been tested at all? I'm anticipating a couple of tournaments heavy in both Counter-Top and general permission.

I've been testing shusher in the board. He's crucial against counter top decks.

[MTG-Fan]

So what are the advantages of sticking with the Dragon Stompy manabase of Imperial Painter instead of just going to the classic blue control route of Next Level Painter?

Is there any reason to run this version? It seems to me that CounterTop, Draw, and Card Selection are reasons enough to run NLP instead of this.

[sauce]

Drew, what about these potential answers to Zoo:
Meekstone
Ensnaring bridge

[Michael Keller]

So what are the advantages of sticking with the Dragon Stompy manabase of Imperial Painter instead of just going to the classic blue control route of Next Level Painter?

Is there any reason to run this version? It seems to me that CounterTop, Draw, and Card Selection are reasons enough to run NLP instead of this.

Because NLP bases its primary strategy in another fashion than Imperial Painter. Imperial Painter has the unique ability to completely shut down an opponent's permanent foundation while systematically tearing away at their life total with a horde of small creatures.

NLP has a very fragile mana foundation and bases too much of its strategy in doing far too many different things at once. It has about a million different agendas and operates in a completely different fashion than Imperial Painter, which is far more aggressive in its approach to victory. Imperial Painter plays more to the strengths of Painter's Servant than NLP, proven by the unprecedented amount of hate the deck plays.

NLP has the advantage of draw and search, but this is a deck that doesn't necessarily focus its attention on drawing cards as much as it does killing (or crippling) an opponent at a much faster rate. The price to be paid for this drastic however effective approach is the lack of draw and search effects. You could ideally run Sensei's Divining Top or Magma Jet in Imperial Painter, but all it does is fix draws.

The decks are completely different in how they play. Just because they run Painter's Servant and Grindstone doesn't put them in the same class of competitiveness. You're comparing two completely separate archetypes.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Drew, what about these potential answers to Zoo:
Meekstone
Ensnaring bridge

Yo Alex. The biggest problem I have with these answers to Zoo is that they are artifacts. Since most decks, Zoo included, side in crazy artifact hate against Imperial Painter, I'd rather not side in more targets for them. I haven't played that many games though with those cards, so I can't say for sure.


So what are the advantages of sticking with the Dragon Stompy manabase of Imperial Painter instead of just going to the classic blue control route of Next Level Painter?

Is there any reason to run this version? It seems to me that CounterTop, Draw, and Card Selection are reasons enough to run NLP instead of this.

This is kind of like the age-old question "why don't you just play blue?". If we go down that road, I would ask, "why don't you just play Next Level Blue instead of Next Level Painter?"

To answer the question with specifics though, I would add to Hollywood's response by saying: you get to play Magus and Blood Moon...first turn sometimes, you get to sideboard in Trinisphere, you get maximum hate on the best color in Legacy, you have a solid manabase, and finally, you are playing a deck that not everybody expects and always prepares for. Basically, as was already said, IP and NLP are just different, but there good reasons to play either one.

[sauce]

Yo Alex. The biggest problem I have with these answers to Zoo is that they are artifacts. Since most decks, Zoo included, side in crazy artifact hate against Imperial Painter, I'd rather not side in more targets for them. I haven't played that many games though with those cards, so I can't say for sure.


True, but thats kinda the point I think, it accomplishes two goals:
1) Gives them alternative targets for removal (pridemage/grips/grudge)
2) Stalls them out if they choose not to blow them up and lets you try to combo off.

[MTG-Fan]

The decks are completely different in how they play. Just because they run Painter's Servant and Grindstone doesn't put them in the same class of competitiveness. You're comparing two completely separate archetypes.

Yes they are obviously different, but if we are looking for the optimal shell in which to place the Painter/Grindstone combo, it is worth comparing the two decks.

Yes, playing the Red Stax shell gives you Moon effects and such, but I've found during playtesting that often times this will not solely win you the game. And because Painter is so fragile (Krosan Grip/StP/burn/etc) the entire deck falls apart fast if Moon doesn't stop them or if they take out Painter.

A blue shell would give you more card advantage, card filtering and help you better protect the servant and find the combo, imho.

[Michael Keller]

es, playing the Red Stax shell gives you Moon effects and such, but I've found during playtesting that often times this will not solely win you the game.

I have no trouble saying there is no more devastating play - in Legacy - than a turn one Magus. He does quite the CONTRARY to what you said, he DOES win games by himself. I can't recall the countless times he has been effective enough as a game-winner in tournament play all by his lonesome, because it just happened far too often.

I don't know what kind of play-testing you've been doing, but it honestly seems rather light or falsified. Magus of the Moon is arguably the most powerful card in Imperial Painter and shuts down a large portion of the format when played early enough (even late-game he can still be a bomb because of the way he warps the game-state).

[MTG-Fan]

I have no trouble saying there is no more devastating play - in Legacy - than a turn one Magus. He does quite the CONTRARY to what you said, he DOES win games by himself. I can't recall the countless times he has been effective enough as a game-winner in tournament play all by his lonesome, because it just happened far too often.

I don't know what kind of play-testing you've been doing, but it honestly seems rather light or falsified. Magus of the Moon is arguably the most powerful card in Imperial Painter and shuts down a large portion of the format when played early enough (even late-game he can still be a bomb because of the way he warps the game-state).

There is no doubt that Moon effects are very powerful, but there are two factors to consider:

a.) mono-colored (or close to it) decks in which Magus of the Moon is a mediocre Bear and Blood Moon is a complete blank

b.) skilled players who know you will attempt Moon effects will play around them by doing things like fetching basics, playing Mox Diamond/Chrome Mox/BoP/Heirarch etc.

Again, yes, he is very powerful against multicolored manabases but against good players that will not always be enough to win the game. And *if* they play around these effects and play stuff like StP or K-Grip on your Painter, the red shell's complete lack of card advantage/filtering will mean you stand no chance against superior draw and card selection.

[Michael Keller]

There is no doubt that Moon effects are very powerful, but there are two factors to consider:

a.) mono-colored (or close to it) decks in which Magus of the Moon is a mediocre Bear and Blood Moon is a complete blank

b.) skilled players who know you will attempt Moon effects will play around them by doing things like fetching basics, playing Mox Diamond/Chrome Mox/BoP/Heirarch etc.

Again, yes, he is very powerful against multicolored manabases but against good players that will not always be enough to win the game. And *if* they play around these effects and play stuff like StP or K-Grip on your Painter, the red shell's complete lack of card advantage/filtering will mean you stand no chance against superior draw and card selection.

If I'm playing against a skilled player, do you really think it is going to matter if they "play around them"? It's obvious if someone drops a Magus, the opposing player is going to fetch for a basic in response (or a non-basic; floating a mana) and try to counter it or kill it with spot-removal.

Against mono-colored decks, don't you think Magus would come out games two and three? You're taking one complete archetype and basically saying, "It stands no chance against superior draw and card selection", when you've obviously done a less-than mediocre job researching what exactly a pseudo aggro-control deck's play strategy maintains against a deck defined by its ability to draw cards and search for answers really looks like.

Imperial Painter is a completely different beast than the "NLP" deck. The style of play, the main-deck cards, side-boarding strategies, etc., are all taken into account in this matter. Imperial Painter may maintain a "Dragon-Stompy-esque" mana structure, but again; you're comparing a deck that plays differently in almost every single way. There's a reason why Imperial Recruiter is that good - he finds you answers and adds a tremendous amount of filter, consistency, and even board manipulation. The deck might not draw a lot of cards, but to say that one deck draws more cards and wins more often than another is completely false. A partition of the definition of "match-up" is the basis of the interactions of cards within two decks and how one particular card (or cards) in a deck trumps another while both are in action. Magus is, in these terms, very powerful.

You're completely digressing from what each deck is meant to do, and it is dooming you to a somewhat lofty opinion about "NLP", as opposed to Imperial Painter.

[Cacks]

I've only got a light degree of experience with IP, but I agree with Holywood, at least in this sense - IP and NLP are very different decks, and you need to decide which suits your play style and metagame. Neither is in any sense the 'right' or 'wrong' decision, although I personally like the fact that IP attacks the game from a different angle. To my mind NLP is just 'another' bluey-thresholdy-counterbalancy-island containing deck. That is far from saying it is bad - to the contrary, it is undoubtedly strong - but it does not pose a different class of questions for the opposing deck to answer in the same way that IP does.

As to card advantage etc - in one sense IP has virtually none, at another level it is stuffed with it. The much discussed magus, for example, has the capability of completely blanking large parts or all of an opponent's hand - thereby creating massive card advantage at a practical level. Similarly the deck's very aggressive tempo can blank a substantial array of slower cards. So to say that it contains no card advantage is, I think, a slightly superficial analysis.

But, like any deck with a stompy mana base, I am somewhat nervous about its consistence, even with tops etc in the deck.

[jazzykat]

With limited experience with IP and quite a bit with NLP I feel like weighing in.

To me they have very different metagame applications. (I will make some generalizations now so unless they are generally wrong then don't start throwing corner cases up until there are enough to make a new general point.)

IP is very strong against a (very) well developed metagame with lots of Thresh, Landstill, and non-basic manabases. Take it into a field of burn, goyf slight, etc and I'd be willing to bet things get a lot tougher. It plays proactive answers/distruption. It plays an DSesque manabase which is a bit more acceptable for IP than DS but I do not have enough experience to comment on its stability.

NLP really doesn't have any good matchups, although with the exception of landstill.removal.dec I don't feel it has any abominable ones. Depending on the version the card filtering (BS + Ponder), numerable basics and almost all color producing lands make its manabase rock solid, and add a lot of consistency to the deck.

The arguments about CA are moot to me. IP plays cards that negate whole parts of someone's deck (chalice/3sphere/moon). NLP (often) plays CB/Top which can shut off other decks. There is recruiter, and trinket mage... The disucssion about CA is abstract, it becomes even more so when you have a combo finish, and take tempo into account. I doubt that many members of this forum can accurately speak to the whole picture, as I know I couldn't.

So why play IP over NLP or vice versa because of your metagame, your (in)tolerance to (in)consistency. Both are very fine decks, and it is wrong to dismiss IP, as an inferior version of NLP.

[scrumdogg]

Went 2-0 (after getting the bye) at OTE last night with this list. Not extensively tested but would appreciate feedback. As a reference, I expected heavy Dreadstill & Counter-Top & expect it again this weekend, that is my focus for some of the questionable card choices (oh, and the SB was last minute & not correct...).



//0cc
[4x] Chrome Mox

//1cc
[4x] Red Elemental Blast
[4x] Grindstone
[4x] Pyroblast

//2cc
[4x] Painter's Servant
4x Vexing Shusher

//3cc
[4x] Imperial Recruiter
[4x] Simian Spirit Guide
[4x] Magus of the Moon
4x Blood Moon
[2x] Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
[1x] Viashino Heretic

//Land
[10x] Mountain
[4x] Ancient Tomb
[4x] City of Traitors

//Sideboard
[3x] Active Volcano
3x Pithing Needle
4x Volcanic Fallout
3x Figure of Destiny
2x Akroma Angel of Fury

Apparently I don't own 4 Pithing Needle or Figure of Destiny...hmmm...have to rectify that... Beat BG Eva Green style deck 2-0 by dropping guys & beating. I got both combo pieces down early but without the mana to use them that turn. He Maelstrom Pulsed & agonized over which to kill. He chose Grindstone & dropped Tombstalker next turn. I topdecked Red Blast & killed it, because Servant said it was blue :cool: Weasel beats finished him off (although to be fair, I had a Recruiter in hand if he had hit the Servant). Game 2 I keep a hand with lots of mana (4 land and a SSG) with a Pithing Needle & a Fallout. From my experience against this type of deck, they will mulligan until they get a disruptive Turn 1 play, and with their heavy LD, I wanted the ability to actually play what came off the top. Sure enough he leads fetch into Swamp, Thoughtseize, taking the Fallout. I topdeck a Magus (he had seen zero Moon effects from me Game 1, not by my choice...) and cast it off Tomb + SSG. He proceeds to not miss a land drop for 5 turns...but they are all 'mountains' by which point my Magus had a back up Blood Moon and a friend. Sure enough, he had a hand full of BG goodness that was never going to be cast after Blood Moon blanked any Snuff Out he might have drawn. Whew, I expected this to be a much worse from my experience.

Won 2-1 vs Roddy playing Meathooks. Game 1 screw with his mana but have to actually beat him down. Game 2 I get three early Moon effects which are either STP'd or Annulled. By the time I get the 4th to stick he has Vial down (but not much action). I get a Recruiter to stick & fetch Jaya...to have him draw & Vial in Burrenton Forge Tender...d'oh! The Vial ramped to 2, started dropping evil Slivers & while I try to race Ancient Tomb had dropped me just low enough that I had to block with Jaya or die. Had I been able to hold Jaya I could have Bolted him EOT, drawn, Bolted again & played the Fallout I was holding to win. Oh well, it was close. Game 3 I dropped 2x Grindstone Turn 1, and Servant Turn 4 after he had STP'd my Turn 3 Magus. Ironically, killing the Magus gave me enough mana to drop the Servant and activate Grindstone. He had Vial at 2 & I was sure he had Harmonic in hand. While I had Red Blast in hand & Shusher in play, using mana (on Annul or Force or Daze for example) wouldn't have left enough to combo out that turn. Whew. I was amazed that the deck was only able to combo out once all night, but went 4-1 in games. I thought removing the Figures to the side and removing the light burn package would greatly affect the beatdown element of the deck, but apparently not so. I would love to fit some Figures MD but don't have enough experience with the deck to calculate. Four Shusher is probably overkill, but I wouldn't want to go below three given what I expect. I could side the Heretic (not used or tutored all night) but hate to lose a toolbox piece, especially if I expect heavy Dreadstill? Still leary of the Zoo matchup as well, which I expect to be well represented this weekend but I can free up spaces in the SB without much difficulty. Thinking of -4 Fallout, +4 Trinisphere, which combined with the 8 Moon effects MD should give me a fighting shot to disrupt decks long enough to combo. Also thinking that 4 Needles, to be able to name fetches versus decks like Zoo, could be effective and Lord knows I have cards I can side out against them...

[Michael Keller]

I'd be interested in knowing how well the four Vexing Shushers worked for you, Allan. I was originally contemplating them, but I wanted to know how they fared in a different meta.

[Esper3k]

One thing that people have been talking about - the deck's succeptibility to Counterbalance/Top.

Having played against this deck quite a few times, I actually don't think it's weak at all against CB/Top.

With all the 3 drops you have, as well as playing all those REBs + Jaya Ballard, you have so many answers to CounterBalance. Plus, of course, the resolved T1 Magus/Blood Moon = GG against pretty much any deck that's playing CB/Top.

[Michael Keller]

One thing that people have been talking about - the deck's succeptibility to Counterbalance/Top.

Having played against this deck quite a few times, I actually don't think it's weak at all against CB/Top.

With all the 3 drops you have, as well as playing all those REBs + Jaya Ballard, you have so many answers to CounterBalance. Plus, of course, the resolved T1 Magus/Blood Moon = GG against pretty much any deck that's playing CB/Top.

That's exactly my point.

Which leads me to believe that four main-deck Shusher does seem a little high.

[DrewliusMaximus]

True, but thats kinda the point I think, it accomplishes two goals:
1) Gives them alternative targets for removal (pridemage/grips/grudge)
2) Stalls them out if they choose not to blow them up and lets you try to combo off.

I see your point, but at the same time, I'm not sure that giving them more targets is actually going to hinder them in any significant way. They have a lot of artifact hate, so they'll most likely answer Ensnaring Bridge/Meekstone when you play it, and then they have cheap burn that can remove Painter too.

@Scrumdogg and the Shushers - My thought was always that this deck already packs hate against blue and has high enough casting-costs that no more than 2 Shushers are needed. Not to mention that I would rather not put in more cards with double-red requirements than necessary. Basically, I agree with Esper3k that the deck is not horribly vulnerable to CB to begin with.

Congrats on the results though Scrumdogg. I admire anyone who puts 8 MD Moon effects in their deck. I definitely recommend Trinispheres in the SB in case you ever see ANT or Charbelcher, and you can actually bring them in against Dreadstill and Zoo. Also, I am considering taking another page out of the Hollywood playbook and putting Figures in my MD. From very light testing, they seem awesome, acting as either a cheap decoy, small beater or even the biggest creature on the board. Maybe you could go down to 1 Shusher MD and add 3 Figures? Other than that, the only things I can think of are: removing creature swarms (if not with Fallout, then with Pyrokinesis or something else), and possibly attacking the graveyard (with Relic of Progenitus, Faerie Macabre, Crypt, etc.).

[Michael Keller]

I see your point, but at the same time, I'm not sure that giving them more targets is actually going to hinder them in any significant way. They have a lot of artifact hate, so they'll most likely answer Ensnaring Bridge/Meekstone when you play it, and then they have cheap burn that can remove Painter too.

@Scrumdogg and the Shushers - My thought was always that this deck already packs hate against blue and has high enough casting-costs that no more than 2 Shushers are needed. Not to mention that I would rather not put in more cards with double-red requirements than necessary. Basically, I agree with Esper3k that the deck is not horribly vulnerable to CB to begin with.

Congrats on the results though Scrumdogg. I admire anyone who puts 8 MD Moon effects in their deck. I definitely recommend Trinispheres in the SB in case you ever see ANT or Charbelcher, and you can actually bring them in against Dreadstill and Zoo. Also, I am considering taking another page out of the Hollywood playbook and putting Figures in my MD. From very light testing, they seem awesome, acting as either a cheap decoy, small beater or even the biggest creature on the board. Maybe you could go down to 1 Shusher MD and add 3 Figures? Other than that, the only things I can think of are: removing creature swarms (if not with Fallout, then with Pyrokinesis or something else), and possibly attacking the graveyard (with Relic of Progenitus, Faerie Macabre, Crypt, etc.).

Figure of Destiny is ridiculously good in this deck. It just gets so big in a hurry that sometimes I find myself (in late game situations and all that extra mana) "recruitering" for a Figure and just pump the hell out of him. He is really multilateral in the deck; a real bargain.

As far as Shushers go, I wouldn't play anymore than two. You already have four Imperial Recruiters and you can always fetch one up if ever need be.

[MTG-Fan]

I've been playing this deck alot lately and I'm kind of frustrated with how easily Chalice@1 shuts this deck down.

Yes I can always Recruit the Heretic but I have to draw him, and hope he can stick around long enough to use his ability.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Figure of Destiny is ridiculously good in this deck. It just gets so big in a hurry that sometimes I find myself (in late game situations and all that extra mana) "recruitering" for a Figure and just pump the hell out of him.

Without having played too much with Figure, it seems to me that the mere threat of getting bigger really fast is a big reason why he is so good in the deck. An opponent is already forced to deal with Painter because of the number of cards that he enables, and Magus too on occasion. Now, we can throw out another cheap creature that "absolutely has to be dealt with" (even if we don't have the mana to pump him immediately - because he could be only a turn or two away from being the biggest creature on the board). All the sudden, the opponent has some really difficult decisions to make unless they have a near perfect hand of removal. If they get rid of Figure, then Servant stays, and the Blast onslaught continues. Otherwise, they have to deal with a 4/4 that might soon be an 8/8.

In the end, it seems pretty simple: Figure is great because we get a cheap new win condition to play with.

[Michael Keller]

I've been playing this deck alot lately and I'm kind of frustrated with how easily Chalice@1 shuts this deck down.

Yes I can always Recruit the Heretic but I have to draw him, and hope he can stick around long enough to use his ability.

If you're playing in a meta with a heavy Chalice count, then perhaps Shusher is the way for you to go in that respect.

As far as Chalice at one goes, I've never had that become an issue at all games two and three. If it pops up game one, then you have plenty of outs. It's not like every single win condition in your deck costs one mana. Games two and three you can board appropriately.

Chalice at one can do a lot of damage to a lot of decks in the format; it isn't narrowed down to just this one. If you maintain a proper sideboard and prepare yourself for that, than you should have absolutely no problem playing around it. The deck became a little more susceptible to Chalice at one (game one, anyways) after several cards made their way out and others made their way in.

Scrumm plays four Shusher in his main deck, so I highly doubt he has that problem with Chalice (which is why I asked how it worked for him; I'm interested in running several myself in the main again). Other than that, I haven't had a single issue with it.

[cwt1220]

Figure of Destiny has been amazing in my testing against Canadian Thresh and Survival Elves and various other aggro matches. When he comes down turn 1 and is a 4/4 on turn 2 a lot of times, that puts you opponent on a serious clock. I have loved blocking a 1/1 nimble mongoose, then removing a spirit guide to make the figure a 2/2 :laugh:. I would also like to know opinions on Trinisphere. I don't come across combo really at all, and it didn't seem to help enough against aggro. What do you think?

-Chris-

[scrumdogg]

If you're playing in a meta with a heavy Chalice count, then perhaps Shusher is the way for you to go in that respect.

As far as Chalice at one goes, I've never had that become an issue at all games two and three. If it pops up game one, then you have plenty of outs. It's not like every single win condition in your deck costs one mana. Games two and three you can board appropriately.

Chalice at one can do a lot of damage to a lot of decks in the format; it isn't narrowed down to just this one. If you maintain a proper sideboard and prepare yourself for that, than you should have absolutely no problem playing around it. The deck became a little more susceptible to Chalice at one (game one, anyways) after several cards made their way out and others made their way in.

Scrumm plays four Shusher in his main deck, so I highly doubt he has that problem with Chalice (which is why I asked how it worked for him; I'm interested in running several myself in the main again). Other than that, I haven't had a single issue with it.

Relative immunity to Chalice is a nice side benefit to Shusher. We also have a varied curve, which helps defeat Chalice anyway. Maybe it's only New England or the people I play, but being able to float a 3cc on top with Counter-Top (or blind flip it with 4 left in the deck, right J.V.?) happens all the damn time and it pisses me off immensely. I hate Counter-Top being part of the environment but until Wizards realizes how constraining (and slow and un-fun) it is and removes one of the parts, any deck needs to be prepared for it. I could go below 4 Shusher and should. Two seems problematic (as I'm not guaranteed to be able to 'recruit' them, quite aside from the problem that I may have multiple things I wish to use my Recruiters for...) so 3 feels like the right number. That frees one slot for a MD Figure but I'm at a loss at where else to trim in my experimental version.Removing a combo piece for an alternate beater seems poor, the mana is pretty tight (I prefer 4 Chrome Mox to ensure Turn 1/2 silliness and consistency), and the tutoring/answers package is very tight as well. I could subtract 1 Blood Moon to the SB, but I have to ask if Figure of Destiny is more valuable than the Blood Moon? To date, the Moon focus has been very good for me & the decks it won't hit (or will enable the red mana element of the deck...) are the ones that can most easily deal with Figure anyway (Goyf Sligh, Zoo, Burn, Dragon Stompy, Goblins) while against much of the rest of the format I would much rather have a Moon effect than a Figure (although both would be nice...). Being able to fit at least 1 FoD makes sense as it becomes tutorable but will have more data after this weekend.

[FoolofaTook]

@Scrumdog

That's a great list. Keep the blasts and moon effects right where they are. The list has blue by the balls and it looks a lot more consistent than Dragon Stompy. Really nice metagame buster you cooked up there.

[scrumdogg]

Thank you, my main concern is how it handles the 1/3 of the format that isn't blue...which leads into the ongoing sideboard project...

Thoughts for this weekend:
4x Trinisphere
3x Active Volcano
3x Figure of Destiny
1x Vexing Shusher
4x Pithing Needle

That gives me the ability have a MD FoD & swap the Shushers & FoDs straight up as needed in various matchups. There is Volcano for blue overload (although that feels like win-more given MD Shusher, if anything gets cut it would probably the AVs). My main reasoning behind the AV is the upsurge in popularity of Merfolk in New England. Trinisphere is for combo (along with the Moons & REBs should give me decent game) as well as slowing down the fast decks with red (Burn, Zoo, Goyf Sligh). Pithing Needle hits a lot of things that are bad for my deck - Deed, EE, Planeswalkers, Grim Lavamancer, Qasali Pridemage, Top, any land effect before I can stick a Moon effect (or if I can't find/stick a Moon effect...), Survival, Vial etc etc ad nauseum (but not Ad Nauseum...).

Thoughts on sideboarding plans (advice welcome...):

Vs Merfolk -1 FoD, -4 Blood Moon, -2 Magus +3 Active Volcano, +4 Pithing Needle
My reasoning is that shutting down Vial, Waste & Mutavault via Needle (which can't be BEB'd & is cheaper than what it replaces) and having extra cards to whack Wake Thrasher is important. 3 Shushers should more than handle the light countermagic of Merfolk. Moon effects are nice, but don't hinder them casting Vial or deal with their island heavy manabase (although I would have to re-evaluate if I played a splash version...).

vs CounterTop Thresh -1 FoD +1 Shusher
My reasoning is that I plan to be pre-sideboarded against this style of deck and hopefully eliminate their strategy for controlling my combo (or eventually Jaya-nization of all their resources...)

vs Dreadstill (see above)

vs combo (probably ANT, but plan remains the same against everything except 2Land Belcher, where I can remove REBs & Pyroblasts instead) -3 Shusher, -1 FoD +4 Trinisphere (Belchers -8 Blast, +4 Trinisphere, +4 Pithing Needle)

Vs Zoo/Goyf Sligh -3 Shusher -2 Jaya, -1 Heretic, -1 Chrome Mox (losing enough red cards to justify that) +3 Figure, +4 Trinisphere
My reasoning is that they can kill most of my critters anyway, subbing in cards that force them to use 1 spell at a time & the few critters that can grow above their burn range give me time to bait & craft a one turn combo drop on their face.

Vs Burn - I'm screwed, I believe, but hopefully my Counter-Top playing opponents have eaten all the burn... -4 Blood Moon, -4 Pyroblast, +4 Trinisphere, +3 Figure, +1 Shusher
My reasoning is that I need as many creatures as possible to beat them down, hopefully while they are crippled under a Trinisphere. Really, I just hoping to avoid straight burn, or at worst bait a new opponent into burning the wrong creature, then dropping Servant for a win...

Vs Landstill..oh Gawd, what version? As to general strategy, the more colors they play, the better the Moon effects get but the longer the game goes, the more we get into wars of attrition, the more they win... so, is the strategy to deny them as much mana versatility as possible and explode in one turn? I really need to playtest this archetype more (or dodge it, a lot, repeatedly...).

Vs Survival -3 Shusher, -1 Heretic (unless they play Vial) + 4 Pithing Needle
My reasoning is while I would love to bring in Figure, if the game goes that long, they have probably done something stupid to get Survival unlocked (or they drew more Grips than I drew combo pieces...). I would rather retain the focus on comboing, with the side plan disrupting them with Servant/Blasts & Moon effects, with added disruption on Qasali & Survival (and Wickerborough and whatever else NOT named Grip...) via Needle.

Vs B/G Eva style decks -3 Shusher +3 Figure the Moon effects, when there are 8, make more of a difference than I originally thought. Upgrading the beaters is a bonus, although this can be a gruesomely lopsided beating, especially if they go first...

Vs Goblins same as vs B/G, aim for an early Moon effect & try to combo out the turn I drop the Servant (or have a REB for protection). Would it be better to drop 4 of the Blasts to add the 4 Needles versus Goblins?

Vs Elves -3 Shusher, -1 Chrome Mox +4 Trinisphere and try to race them, Moons shut down Cradles and if the game goes longer I can kill everything they play (of significance).

Any matchups (that aren't a statistical outlier of some sort) that people can think of (and a plan..) as well as comments would be appreciated.

[B0W53R]

I realize that Imperial Recruiters are a large investment without much application in legacy so the deck isn't as popular as I think it shoud be, kinda like sea drakes, but even more $$$. It has been by far my favorite deck to play for months now.
The core of the deck seems set but there is around 8-10 flex slots that people have been toying with on these boards. Scrumdogg has opted for shusher and blood moon. A good decision focussing the decks game plan. Drew has filled in those slots with extra land, (tried jitte at one point) tops, bolts, and magma jets giving a nice removal suite against goblins, merfolk, elves, zoo, confidant, etc. and an element of reach when going beatdown. Scrying and top help find what you need too. Hollywood is going with bolts and figures. Figures seem to be good for him though I admit I haven't tried them yet. In theory they seem like a solid back up plan to comboing and can stall aggro possibly.
My version still runs welder to back up combo peices and Jitte. I also don't run chrome mox anymore which is iffy for some explosiveness, but I also run slightly more land and tops, and I very rarely have to mulligan with this configuration.
20 Land
4 Mountain
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

21 Critters/Jitte Wielders
4 Simian Spirit Guides
3 Goblin Welder
4 Painters Servant
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Magus of the Moon
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Vexxing Shusher

19 Other Stuff
4 Grindstone
4 Sensei's Diving Top
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Gamble
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroblast

SB
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Blood Moon
2 Pyrokenisis
2 Rolling Earthquake
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Shattering Spree

Now if I was going to a competitive tourny I would probably play the 7th and maybe 8th blast for the gambles but I mostly play casul legacy with no local tourny anymore...:frown: Jitte has been absolutely amazing for me. When welders get bored they can now go smash face along with my #1 chump blocking friend Recuiter, or if SSG is out of a mana producing job, or for accelerating Magus beats. Welder can make them extremely annoying to get rid of as well. Obviously my aggro matchup has improved greatly and like figures, they can be a powerhouse plan B.
I honestly don't know which one of these strategies is ultimately superior but I just wanted to sum up the main contributers stances, and reintroduce mine. I think Hollywoods is the strongest overall, because I think you have to have a plan B for grindstone, and Lightning Bolt is still decent removal these days other than goyf of course. This list is awesome fun though, and I mean c'mon, it runs welder. :wink:

[Michael Keller]

A lot of people dismiss Lightning Bolt as being ineffective against a lot of decks. You have no idea how many games I've finished off an opponent with Lightning Bolt due to killing him straight up or clearing a path for an alpha strike. It's just so good.

I've also become a little more fonder of Active Volcano as time goes by. It acts as additional hate against decks like Merfolk and the sort. But being able to bounce a land back is extraordinarily annoying, especially when your opponent is playing heavy counter-magic. It really can act like a pseudo-Recoil at times.

Figure is just so good. At one mana, it is hard to argue his efficiency in a deck that lacks larger threats. He really is the alternate (I dare to say main) win condition of the deck. He is very efficient at any point you draw him, as explained before.

There are a lot of various incarnations of Imperial Painter. You all know that the trick is to play according to the meta. This deck especially has to have the most custom of sideboards due to its inherent weakness of being able to keep up against its weaker match-ups. That being said; take into account exactly what free slots you have to work with in the board. Dead honest: My sideboard changes every time I play in any event. Having a sense of stability is important, but in competitive Legacy, you can never have stability in an increaingly changing meta. Plan accordingly and play what works best for you.

[MTG-Fan]

Ok, so I'm still having a ton of problems with Chalices completely shutting me down. For some reason on MWS and around here alot of people play Faerie Stompy and Dragon Stompy, and post-sideboard Chalice just rapes me.

I usually try to recruit Viashino Heretic as soon as I can, but he gets Jitte'd away or Pyrokinesis'd away before he loses his summoning sickness. So lately I've been considering using a different recruiter target to stop troublesome artifacts: Duergar Hedge-Mage.

Hedge-Mage has the capability to destroy both artifacts AND enchantments causing problems, can be recruited, and most importantly, his artifact-destroying ability is a CITP trigger, so no worries about StP/PyroKinesis/Jitte.

The only change you have to make is running Plateaus and possibly a few Sacred Foundry MD instead of the Mountains if you want to be able to use his enchantment-hate option.

What do you guys think?

[comeback]

I suppose that your problems regards what you're tutoring with IR, maybe you do not know how Vexing Shusher works when COTV is in play.

Vexing Shusher
Vexing Shusher can't be countered.
{R/G}: Target spell can't be countered by spells or abilities.

COTV
Whenever a player casts a spell with converted mana cost equal to the number of charge counters on Chalice of the Void, counter that spell.

I suppose that COTV is set for cc1, so you have just to cast your shusher and protect it just from magma jet (opponent will not be able to play swords to plowshers or lightning bolt) and with a :r:/:g: in add to your cc1 everything will run easy.

[MTG-Fan]

Against the decks I'm losing to, like Faerie Stompy, any creature like Shusher or Heretic immediately gets Jitte'd away.

That's why I am trying out a CITP dude that destroys artifacts. I was wondering if anyone else here has debated the merits of using CITP guys instead of guys like Shusher and Heretic that need to stay in play and avoid getting burned or plowed or jitted.

[beastman]

How do you lose to faerie stompy?!? You run 6-8 MD blasts.

[Michael Keller]

How do you lose to faerie stompy?!? You run 6-8 MD blasts.

This.

I'm sorry, but if you lose to Faerie Stompy (of all decks to play against) as bad as you say you do with Imperial Painter, you're honestly either:

a.) Making abysmal play decisions, or

b.) Configuring the deck so incorrectly to the point where you've given yourself complete tunnel-vision towards dealing with Chalice of the Void.

You keep pointing out how bad Chalice is for you. If it is really that much of an issue for you (and you only, it appears), then play more artifact hate (try Hearth Kami if you absolutely hate Heretic).

[DrewliusMaximus]

How do you lose to faerie stompy?!? You run 6-8 MD blasts.

I'm guessing because the early Chalice shuts all those down. I have mainly played against Chalice in Aggro Loam, and I will say it is annoying as hell. But Chalice is easier to deal with than Jitte.

I went 2-1 this weekend, but even though I was paired up after a round 1 loss to White Weenie (I get some pretty horrible matchups), I still missed the top 4. I beat BGW Rock and Mono-Black control after losing to Weenie. I played with 3 MD Figures and they have my support for sure now, although I can see a few reasons not to play a full set (but also reasons to play all 4 too).

[MTG-Fan]

They just mull til they get a Chalice in the opening hand, and that's all she wrote.

In retrospect, I should be tutoring for Shusher, but a.) he can be killed by their jittes, as I said before, and b.) paying 1 extra mana for half of my deck's spells is very annoying.

Hollywood: Have you played against any decks that pack Chalice and Jitte? It's not the cakewalk you make it out to be. Please tell me how you deal with turn 1-2 Chalice shutting off half of your freaking deck and your entire combo as you stare stupidly at a handful of REBs and Bolts while a Jitte-equipped Serendib Efreet beats your ass and keeps everything off the board with his fully charged Jitte.

[beastman]

Are you guys still playing jaya in your builds? I still have her as a 2 of.

[Michael Keller]

They just mull til they get a Chalice in the opening hand, and that's all she wrote.

Okay, that's just absurd. What do you mean, "That's all she wrote"? You are completely lacking any common sense. You're just blurting out ignorance for the sake of blurting out ignorance.

With that logic, you're basically saying, "Okay, you dropped Chalice for one. I scoop yet I have more than twenty cards that cost more than that and I refuse to play around it. I even have cards to deal with it, but good game anyways."

You base your entire deck strategy in playing around a single card, which is why you're having issues.

[MTG-Fan]

Okay, that's just absurd. What do you mean, "That's all she wrote"? You are completely lacking any common sense. You're just blurting out ignorance for the sake of blurting out ignorance.

With that logic, you're basically saying, "Okay, you dropped Chalice for one. I scoop yet I have more than twenty cards that cost more than that and I refuse to play around it. I even have cards to deal with it, but good game anyways."

You base your entire deck strategy in playing around a single card, which is why you're having issues.

Based on your comments, I can't imagine that you have played against any decent Faerie Stompy pilots yet.

Turn 1 Chalice. What are your outs? You need to have Recruiter in your hand, or your 1 Shusher already, and you need to play him, and then later play the Shusher, which is already 2-3 turns later. By that time they've built up a board presence and possibly dropped a Jitte/SoFi. Are you going to keep Shusher in play long enough to pay RR for each Blast/Bolt/etc?

Same goes for the situation in which you tutored for Heretic instead. You've got a wait a turn and pray to god he lives. And that's your ONLY out. If you can't keep these silver bullets alive, you are absolutely fucked. No Figure, no REB, no Bolt... all you can play are Magus of the Moon, Recruiter, and Servant, which are all worthless against Faerie Stompy (Servant being pointless without Grindstone or Blasts).

Don't get me wrong, I love this deck and I've been playing it hardcore lately, and thinking about making it my main tournament deck BUT let's be real here... Chalice is a big deal, and I don't think it's because I'm "playing incorrectly".

[Michael Keller]

Based on your comments, I can't imagine that you have played against any decent Faerie Stompy pilots yet.

You're joking, right? No, like, really?

I've been playing the deck exclusively for almost a year and a half and have gone toe to toe with some of the best Faerie players out there, including Eldariel - the Faerie frikkin' Godfather himself. I've spent hundreds of hours perfecting, play-testing, and fine-tuning the deck to my liking, where as you come in with little or no previous: Testing, results, or even a rudimentary understanding of the archetype except an incongruent opinion of how much you "like" the deck as opposed to constantly bashing it by making claims like "it scoops to Chalice."

Your claims are absurd, at best.

There is a reason the archetype is Established and there are a number of older posts dealing with C.o.t.V. in Imperial Painter, which you obviously haven't taken the time to read. If you had, you'd see there are a ridiculous amount of ways to deal with and get around it; specifically here. There is a wide variety of good players who know how to play this deck and how to play around Chalice of the Void game one. They understand what it takes to be able to play accordingly, which is what you need to do in order to lose the sense of hopelessness you bring about in your posts by saying how dreadful a single card is for this deck (which is a complete perversion of the truth).

As far as Chalice being an issue, if it sees heavy play in your meta, work around it. That's what everyone else does and has no issues what so ever. Is it bad when it hits play? That depends on you and why you would keep a hand filled with Blast effects and maybe a Lightning Bolt in the first place. I'd say knowing how to mulligan yourself is just as important.

[beastman]

Shusher seems to be a good answer to it. Especially if you run 4 imperial recruiter to find him.

[MTG-Fan]

You're joking, right? No, like, really?

I've been playing the deck exclusively for almost a year and a half and have gone toe to toe with some of the best Faerie players out there, including Eldariel - the Faerie frikkin' Godfather himself. I've spent hundreds of hours perfecting, play-testing, and fine-tuning the deck to my liking, where as you come in with little or no previous: Testing, results, or even a rudimentary understanding of the archetype except an incongruent opinion of how much you "like" the deck as opposed to constantly bashing it by making claims like "it scoops to Chalice."

Your claims are absurd, at best.

There is a reason the archetype is Established and there are a number of older posts dealing with C.o.t.V. in Imperial Painter, which you obviously haven't taken the time to read. If you had, you'd see there are a ridiculous amount of ways to deal with and get around it; specifically here. There is a wide variety of good players who know how to play this deck and how to play around Chalice of the Void game one. They understand what it takes to be able to play accordingly, which is what you need to do in order to lose the sense of hopelessness you bring about in your posts by saying how dreadful a single card is for this deck (which is a complete perversion of the truth).

As far as Chalice being an issue, if it sees heavy play in your meta, work around it. That's what everyone else does and has no issues what so ever. Is it bad when it hits play? That depends on you and why you would keep a hand filled with Blast effects and maybe a Lightning Bolt in the first place. I'd say knowing how to mulligan yourself is just as important.


You still haven't explained to me what you do about early Chalice@1. You're sidestepping the fact that you basically have 1-2 outs: recruiting Shusher and/or Heretic. And they need to stay in play for you just to survive, and if they don't, you're screwed.

Please tell me all of the amazing things you will be casting in this deck that don't cost 1 mana, and that don't also depend on said 1 mana spells being castable. Are you banking on your Recruiters and Spirit Guides going toe-to-toe with their Sea Drakes and Efreets?

[Michael Keller]

Shusher seems to be a good answer to it. Especially if you run 4 imperial recruiter to find him.

If Chalice is seeing play everywhere where this guy is playing, then I'd suggest:

+2 Shusher
+2 Hearth Kami

-4 Pyroblast

Try that. Here is what you've effectively done:

1.) Decreased the number of one-cost spells.
2.) Improved your game against playing spells over Chalice and through Shusher.
3.) Able to spot-destroy an artifact with Kami and not have to wait with Heretic.

[Michael Keller]

You still haven't explained to me what you do about early Chalice@1. You're sidestepping the fact that you basically have 1-2 outs: recruiting Shusher and/or Heretic. And they need to stay in play for you just to survive, and if they don't, you're screwed.

Please tell me all of the amazing things you will be casting in this deck that don't cost 1 mana, and that don't also depend on said 1 mana spells being castable. Are you banking on your Recruiters and Spirit Guides going toe-to-toe with their Sea Drakes and Efreets?

If my opponent drops Chalice turn one, then he's leaning back on an Ancient Tomb or City of Traitors. Subsequently, he's probably sitting back on a basic Island. I'm trying to figure out what this opponent is going to do when you drop Jaya and destroy every single blue permanent he puts into play.

Or your Pyrokinesis. Hell, if you fret those cards so much, play Spinal Villain if you're absolutely desperate.

Or just win the die roll and win the game.

Or bounce his Island back to his hand with Active Volcano when he has a City of Traitors out.

[beastman]

What about ingot chewer? He can be hardcast to go beatdown. and he dodges chalice.

[DrewliusMaximus]

C'mon guys. No need to be insulting / feel insulted here. This thread hasn't degraded into a flaming heap of negativity before, and I don't see any reason to start now.

Against a turn 1 Chalice, you're outs are:

(mostly main decked)
Recruiter
Jaya
Shusher
Magus - kind of
Magma Jet - kind of
(mostly post-board)
Pyrokinesis
Heretic
Hearth Kami
Shattering Spree
Pillage
Other?

Your dead cards are:

Blasts
Grindstone
Lightning Bolt
Top
Figure of Destiny
Welder
Gamble
Active Volcano
Other?

[B0W53R]

I usually keep a couple of shattering sprees in the board for Chalice. Destroying Chalice is cheaper than playing around it. It's uncounterable and maybe can get some equips at the same time. Shusher, Jaya, and Recruiters amount to 6 outs preboard. You might also consider Ensnaring Bridge in the board which is extremely strong against FS but less stellar in other matchups.
I run 3 Jitte main which can beat FS through a resolved Chalice and can also remove theirs if they run them. Once I can destroy a Chalice, Goblin Welder can swap any new Chalices or equipments, for old ones, keeping Chalice with 0 counters (Also works well against Aether Vial). If I can resolve Welder before Chalice, then I can run a Grindstone into Chalice, then swap it into play.

[Rath]

*DISCLAIMER* I have not played in enough tournaments with this to make any claims, I am just giving my playtesting experience (and I am generally a LOT more annoyed with counterbalance than chalice)

I can agree that sometimes a 1st turn chalice at 1 can ruin you... but that is kind of the gameplan with this deck as well (1st turn magus anyone?). Winning the die roll helps and your mana acceleration should also do the same thing. Aside from figure, most of your 1cc spells are reactive without painter, so now you just have to shift to a different gameplan. If they drop a first turn chalice at 1 and you have a hand full of 1cc, yyou took a risk and it did not pay off (and sometimes that's just the way the cookie crumbles).

With most of my playtesting, and it has not been that extensive, your first turn plays are often either very explosive moon effects, in which case you do not care about chalice @ 1, or painter with blast back-up, in which case you do. Either way, you have outs. Once you have a shusher in hand, wait till you have 4 mana, cast it with blast back-up (and the extra red to make it uncounterable). If they used their first turn getting the chalice in play, it will be at least 2 more turns before they are hitting you with that effret and jitte.

For me, my outs generally consist of painter + shusher + blasts to cripple them, shusher + blasts, shusher + heretic (wth blast back-up), any moon effect, or just jaya. The best part is, they are all searchable with recruiter. If I see a chalice @ 1, I just start assuming my blasts now cost 2 (with shusher) and go from there. The only cards it turns off for me are bolts and figures... and grindstones if I really was still planning on going the combo route against stompy, which is seriously one of your better match-ups as you can punish them for (a) being blue and (b) having a shaky manabase which you can disrupt.

p.s. > chalice @ 2 always makes me laugh

p.p.s > B0W53R, I like the shattering spree idea, I may have to re-work my sideboard... however, I always prefer creatures simply as they can be recruited

[tsabo_tavoc]

With most of my playtesting, and it has not been that extensive, your first turn plays are often either very explosive moon effects, in which case you do not care about chalice @ 1, or painter with blast back-up, in which case you do.

The latter case means your opponent has both Force of Will and Chalice in hand which happens once in five games.

[Rath]

Yeah, Chalice and FoW happens... but you are looking at two decks that will exhaust their hands rather explosively, stompy to pitch to FoW or moxen, IP to simian spirit guide + tomb, or moxen... either way its a war of attrition and the potential for a lot of card disadvantage but major swings in board position.

You landing magus means you don't care about chalice @ 1 for a couple turns as they are working to deal with the magus while you are working to deal with the chalice. Painter landing means you have now ensured you can counter anything, including chalice (as it is now blue)... again, this is all hand-dependant, but it is still playing probabilities.