[Article] Beyond the Threshold

[Eldariel]

Article (http://mtgsalvation.com/853-beyond-the-threshold.html), by Nick Burns.

Nick goes through the major variants and the skeleton of modern Threshold.

A fine introductionary article to the archetype and goes to show the amount of versatility within the concept. I'd definitely recommend it to anyone who feels not versed in Threshold.

[Shugyosha]

To be honest I think its quite terrible. There are a lot of things he forgot to tell about several cards, subtle tricks that good Threshold players know. He forgot some cards outright (Repeal anyone?) and several of the lists are shitty as hell. C'mon 4 Seal of Primordium in a UG thresh build with Dryads??
The modern UGw Thresh list is actually Linux-ll-'s list but with Nimble Mongoose. The signature feature of his list was to cut Mongoose for Jotun Grunts.
Not to mention that all so called traditional builds play Counterbalance.
Alright I better stop here. Reading this would give people a very wrong impression on the archetype regarding some lists.

[Dont_Stop_Believin]

Mental Note - Mental Note has fallen to the wayside recently, but it's still a cheap source of card advantage.

I LOLD. Mental Note doesnt make any card advantage...

Overall I thought this was alright tho, except the lac of real in depth analysis, endless spam/explanations of of barely or unplayable cards, and bugillions different decklists instead of just the 2 best ones (Moon, and 5c).

On second thought, yeah I guess I really didnt like this that much either.

[conboy31]

"Mental Note - Mental Note has fallen to the wayside recently, but it's still a cheap source of card advantage. "

I thought the same thing as you: wtf? But at the same time he is on to something but described it wrong.

It does provide some sort of quasi-virtual advantage in one of the playing zones. It provides %57 percent of threshhold when used in conjunction with a fetch land. However, that is grasping at straws and making a liberal interpretation of the quote.

All in all it seemed alright. Anytime lots of information is packed into a single source that is easily navigable seems beneficial. I would imagine it took quite a lot of time to put together.

[Eldariel]

I read the UG build more as a historic basis than a build actually meant for playing. Mental Note was a relatively minor point and I fully believe it may have been a typo or misthought when writing it.

Dont_Stop_Believin: Are you sure Moon and 5c are the best? 'cause by finishes, it certainly looks like Tempo Thresh, UGw, UGwb and UGb are all doing better than either. Tempo Thresh in particular looks solid as it has winnable match-ups against many decks most Thresh-builds pretty much scoop against (most midrange and control-decks).

[Dont_Stop_Believin]

Dont_Stop_Believin: Are you sure Moon and 5c are the best? 'cause by finishes, it certainly looks like Tempo Thresh, UGw, UGwb and UGb are all doing better than either. Tempo Thresh in particular looks solid as it has winnable match-ups against many decks most Thresh-builds pretty much scoop against (most midrange and control-decks).

Well, based on what Ive seen and heard the Hatfields say, I think this is the case, feel free to disagree though.

[Eldariel]

Well, based on what Ive seen and heard the Hatfields say, I think this is the case, feel free to disagree though.

I speak purely of results. www.germagic.de hasn't listed any 5c or Moon Thresh-lists lately. Maybe they aren't played, maybe they shouldn't be. They finished well in the hands of Hatfields, but let's be honest, so does any other Threshold-variant. Maybe people are just afraid to use them due to the lists' relative newness, I can't know of that, but I do know that Tempo Thresh seems to be placing an awful lot compared to the others, along with a bunch of UGw, UGwr, UGwb and UGb.

[Mister Agent]

I personally think 5c threshold is one of the better variants of threshold. Considering it can do what other threshold lists can't do is change into other threshold variants like UGR(postboard), UGW, and UGB. With this flexibility 5c can have better matchups compared to 3c/4c tempo thresh.

However with all of these strategy options going for 5c threshold it tends to be a more skill intensive deck to play then tempo thresh in my opinion. Of course I like to play conservatively and so I would prefer playing balanced thresh over tempo thresh.

[Happy Gilmore]

Has this guy every played 5c threshold? Hell the mana base is harder to disrupt at times than the 3 color manabase. I appriciate the intro for alot of the newer players, but taking lists that have not proven themselves through tournament results is a bad way to get players started in legacy. Jace? Oblivion Ring? WTF?


I speak purely of results. www.germagic.de (http://www.germagic.de/) hasn't listed any 5c or Moon Thresh-lists lately. Maybe they aren't played, maybe they shouldn't be. They finished well in the hands of Hatfields, but let's be honest, so does any other Threshold-variant. Maybe people are just afraid to use them due to the lists' relative newness, I can't know of that, but I do know that Tempo Thresh seems to be placing an awful lot compared to the others, along with a bunch of UGw, UGwr, UGwb and UGb.


On paper I bet most ppl think 5c threshold is unstable. On the contrary, it is. Plus your hands tend to be off the charts power level wise. Over 9000!

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

On paper I bet most ppl think 5c threshold is unstable. On the contrary, it is.

*slowclap*

Who says that proof reading is dead?


OP:
You all are kind of bitches, actually. It was a pretty decent article. It actually takes some amount of skill to talk about Threshold without my being bored and looking at something else halfway through.


Onoessomeone's opinion of the relative strengths and weaknesses of certain cards differs from my own!!!!111eleven!

[Eldariel]

OP:
You all are kind of bitches, actually. It was a pretty decent article. It actually takes some amount of skill to talk about Threshold without my being bored and looking at something else halfway through.

It's funny you directed that at OP, since I actually reacted positively to the article (which is why I started the thread in the first place).

[Lego]

The "Traditional" and "Modern" UGw lists are described as quite different in the article. The Modern list gains a lot of ground against control, but can't beat aggro. Yet the only differences are -4 Predict, -2 Oblivion Ring, +2 Spell Snare, +2 Jace, +2 Hoofprints. Doesn't even seem worthy of two different lists.

Also, in the Black Thresh list, 17 lands with 3 Wastelands? Crazy.

I would have liked more on 4 color lists, as they're becoming more and more popular. And I think the coverage of the 5C list doesn't do it justice at all.

[TrialByFire]

Also, in the Black Thresh list, 17 lands with 3 Wastelands? Crazy.

Have you played it before? I run 17 lands and 4 Waste in my list, with Bob, Brainstorm, and Ponder its not too hard to get to 2 mana. And thats all you need to operate.

[etrigan]

but I do know that Tempo Thresh seems to be placing an awful lot compared to the others, along with a bunch of UGw, UGwr, UGwb and UGb.

Tempo Thresh is different enough from CBTop Thresh that it should really be considered a separate archtype. Many of the card are the same, but the strategies are completely different.

[Anusien]

If you're going to include a history section in your article, at least have the decency to get it mostly right.

Miracle Gro (originally Turbo Dryad) was a deck built for the old Extended field (GP Las Vegas, where he ended just outside T8). It was Mike Long who made the deck more solidly anti-creature with Mongrels, Werebears and Waterfront Bouncers. I believe it's Ben Rubin who transformed the deck to Super Gro by adding white.

I'm not sure what this article adds beyond the dozen or so articles on this subject that are still pretty current. The most dissatisfying section was the list of potential cards. Each one had a sentence that basically summed up the text on the card. What I'm looking for in something like that is context. I want to know what cards are good against what decks or strategies. Not like "Rushing River is bounce to remove whatever is necessary" but "Rushing River is the card you want if there is a lot of Stax or Enchantress in your metagame because it can buy you two turns for the cost of one." or "Rushing River is a potentially good sideboard card in the mirror because it costs 3 so it is harder to Counterbalance, and it can remove a Counterbalance and a Goyf."

Incidentally Rule of Law, Arcane Lab, Mana Maze and Serenity are missing from the list of cards.

Also, this type of articel does people a disservice. It's quite easy to fit in Wasteland/Stifle into a Counterbalance shell, where an article like this seems to say you get one or the other, but not both. It would also be worth mentioning the two basic arguments on some of these builds:
3 Counterbalance/Top or 4?
Fattie or no? He misses out on the main reason the fattie is good, to bust up a ground stall or possibly to touch another color (for example, not requiring Green in the case of Sea Drake or Fledgling Dragon).

Also, I think his Threshold lists are going to have a hard time hitting Threshold, since they're surprisingly heavy on permanents. I found I couldn't afford Oblivion Ring on top of Engineered Explosives (which is absent in many of his lists, particularly UGW) because I would not get Thresh in time.